May 2, 2025 • 44 mins
As Lindsay is indisposed this week, Ilyse takes to the mic to yap about Attachment Theory. She gives a beginner's rundown of Attachment Theory and how it helps us understand ourselves in relationships. She can't drop a theory without a hot take. She calls out the tiktok dating coaches to bring to light what they're getting wrong iabout the anxious/avoidant dance in early dating and why we need to adjust how we understand attachment in relation to early dating and the digital age.
If you want to learn more about attachment theory, Ilyse recommends:
"The Power of Discord" by Ed Tronick and Claudia M. Gold
"Secure Relating" by Sue Marriott and Ann Kelley
"The Power of Attachment" by Diane Poole Heller
Learn more about The Hilling Journey HERE. Follow us on Instagram @TheHillingJourney.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
We are licensed
therapists, but we probably
aren't your therapists.
While we may share helpful
information about mental health,
it is best to form your individual
(00:20):
care plan with your own
mental health professional.
If we are your therapists, hi.
While this podcast shares nuggets
of wisdom about mental health,
we are sharing many pieces of
who we are outside of the therapy
room and doing a lot of yapping
about nonsense, our own healing
work, and some about sex and
dating.
If you feel listening
to this podcast may interfere
with your work in therapy,
(00:41):
please refrain from doing so.
While we're on the subject,
Any notes from our dating
lives have been changed
to protect the privacy of our
partners and ourselves.
Thanks for listening.
Welcome to the Hilling
Journey podcast.
I'm Ilyse Kennedy and my co host,
Lindsay Camp is indisposed
this week, so I'm going to be
doing a small solo episode.
(01:01):
But usually this is a podcast
where two therapist besties
talk about their hilling
journeys, talk to others on
their hilling journeys, and
interview hillers who have
helped along the way.
So I've noticed a trend
on social media of dating coaches
talking about the anxious
avoidant attachment dance.
(01:23):
They're usually men making
grand statements about avoidance.
And when they're talking about
these avoidants, I think
they're usually talking about
men that end up dating a woman
for a little bit of time and
(01:44):
then ditching out on the
relationship.
I've also noticed an increase in
clients that are deeply affected
by the current dating climate,
but I think research and
information about how we date
and have relationships with each
other hasn't yet caught up to
(02:04):
the way that we're having
relationships now.
I think people are confusing the
information we're getting on
social media about anxious and
avoidance in dating with actual
attachment theory and that many
of us don't have the translation
of attachment theories that can
help us in the early stages of
(02:26):
dating or in this way that we
date now.
I don't think that before
I had tried dating apps I had any
grasp on how clients were
experiencing being
in relationships and the struggles
that they were having with dating.
(02:48):
When I got into my partnership,
I was in my early 20s.
People met very organically.
I had a large group of friends
and people would meet
each other all the time.
I think it was kind
of the beginning stages
of dating apps.
(03:08):
We were maybe just coming out of
the OkCupid type stuff, but it was
a very, very different time
and dating apps were not very
heavily used during that time.
I would have clients prior
talk about being ghosted or
(03:30):
what they were experiencing
on the apps and I just couldn't
conceive of it because I hadn't
experienced it myself.
I think a lot of therapists have
been trained and educated in
attachment theory, but maybe
haven't actually experienced the
(03:51):
way that people are relating to
each other in modern day and
building relationships.
And so I've been thinking a lot
about this and I truly think
that we need a lot more research.
I think people are just starting
to form ideas about how this world
(04:13):
of apps and the digital
world is changing our brains.
I think it's changing our
brains significantly.
I think it's changing
the way that we relate to each
other significantly.
I think a lot of people
are feeling the grief around
this and the very sad, defeating
(04:37):
effects of looking for partnership
and deep connection.
But because of the way that we
connect with each other now,
we're not really experiencing
partnership that's as deep.
We're not experiencing
the way that we've seen love
portrayed in the movies.
(04:59):
We're in some sort of an in
between space where we were
raised on "The Notebook" and we
want to fall in love and make
out in the rain and have these
beautiful connective experiences
with each other.
(05:20):
But we're moving more
towards the movie "Her" and I hear this talked
about a lot lately where it feels
like there's no in between.
It feels like we really want that great, wonderful, deep love but we're like talking to bots and AI.
(05:42):
People are literally getting
therapy from AI these days.
People are literally able to
sext with AI these days.
And so we're kind of getting taken
into this digital world.
I was really inspired by the
(06:04):
episode of Tinx's podcast
where she talks about summer of
outside 2025, and Summer of
Outside was a concept she
developed as a way to get off
the apps and just interact with
humans and meet people
(06:26):
organically to like join a
sports team during the summer.
Or Austin folks, go to Barton Springs.
Like talk to your Barton Springs crush.
But what she's talking about in
this latest episode is how
dire it is right now that we
(06:46):
make connections with other
humans because we're really
getting sucked into this
digital world.
And she had shared this article
from the New York Times that
talks about how we are literally
heading towards extinction
because we're getting more lured
to the digital world than the
(07:09):
human world.
And I think we have to acknowledge
and recognize that when we're
thinking about how we're building
relationships these days.
So I want to take it back and I
want to give you some context
around attachment theory.
(07:30):
And then I want to talk to you
about how we can use attachment
theory in dating relationships
and in the early stages of dating.
But we don't want to be using
it as they're using it on
social media right now in the
(07:50):
pop psychology sense where
it's this victim perpetrator
dynamic around folks who are
anxiously attached and
avoidant attached.
I want to help you understand
more around attachment theory
and then we can talk about how we
(08:11):
can start to translate this for
what's happening in modern day.
So I always like to start off
with talking about some of
the history of attachment theory
and I will put in the show notes
if you want to do a deeper dive.
This is going to be like
maybe a 45 minute podcast.
(08:32):
So we can only dive to really
the surface of attachment theory.
So if you want to do a deeper
dive, I'll share some
resources that I really love.
So attachment theory is basically
patterns that we've developed
as infants in order to get our
needs met by our caregivers.
(08:55):
When we think about attachment
theory, we think about how
literally we need connection
with others in order to survive.
As infants, we completely rely
on our caregivers for survival.
We we rely on them
to respond to our needs.
When we make cues around what we
(09:16):
need to determine if our cries
mean that we need to eat or have
our diapers changed or sleep.
And so we rely on our caregivers
to attune to us
in order to meet our needs.
The way in which our needs are
met or or not met is how our
(09:38):
attachment systems start to form
and we encode in our nervous
systems how to get our needs met.
Early on we just cry and hopefully
(09:59):
our caregivers meet our needs.
As we learn the patterns of how
to get our needs met, we start to
adjust how we get our needs met.
So for example, if I--as I start to
grow and maybe I'm a six month old
(10:20):
baby, I start to notice that my
caregivers respond much more to
when I coo or laugh and they give
me a snack when I coo or laugh
versus when I cry, they turn away
from me,
I start to tend towards cooing
and laughter to get my needs met
(10:41):
rather than crying.
So because of these early
attachment relationships and that
we need the attunement of our
caregivers in order to survive,
we actually need relationships
throughout life.
We need connection in order to survive.
(11:04):
Seeking connection and wanting connection is a normal human trait.
I think there can be some
thought around dating apps and
I even fall into this where it
can feel embarrassing like it
feels embarrassing to put
yourself out there and want to
(11:26):
connect.
And actually, it's a very
human need, and this is now
a resource that we have
to seek that connection.
So as we grow, relationships
are not necessarily life or death
for survival,
but evolutionarily, we depend
(11:48):
on relationships for survival.
So let's talk a bit about how
attachment theory developed.
And this is not going into the full
depth of history,
but I want to shout out our man, John Bowlby.
So in the 1950s, John Bolby
was a psychoanalyst, and he began
(12:09):
to research and describe
the way humans related to each
other from a psychological
and evolutionary perspective.
So he understood that
this evolutionary perspective also
explains why the way we relate
to each other changes over time.
So that's important to note
for how we're thinking of how
(12:30):
we relate to each other now.
Like, now that we're relating
to each other in the digital
sense, I think it's changing
some of our attachment
patterns and changing how we
seek connection and how we
attain connection.
So Bowlby studied early
(12:51):
relationships that infants have
with their caregivers, as well as
what happens when infants do
not have access to close
relationships with a caregiver.
There are early videos
of babies in the hospital without
caregivers, because at that
(13:11):
time, they believed that when
people were sick, they needed
to be kept away from others.
The babies that were
in the hospital for a long period
of time didn't properly develop.
So they stopped crying.
They weren't able to speak, they
(13:32):
weren't able to make eye contact.
You can literally see the effects
of the babies not having
connection with anyone.
And it's very, very sad.
So Bowlby studied these early
relationships that infants
have with their caregivers.
And I'm not going to give
(13:53):
the entire history of attachment
theory for today's purposes,
since it's very extensive.
But further down the line
our queen icon, legend, Mary Ainsworth
further developed the theory with her study
the Strange Situation Experiment.
So Ainsworth and Bowlby are how we
got to these four attachment
(14:16):
styles that we kind of take today.
So the Strange Situation Experiment
was conducted beginning
in the 1980s, where Mary Ainsworth
would have mother and baby pairs.
(14:36):
So attachment theory was studied
mostly with mothers at that time.
We were not where we're at today
with feminism, even though
Mary Ainsworth was a queen.
And so we have an understanding now
that attachment relationships
(14:57):
and attachment patterns can happen
with any significant caregiver.
It does not have to be a mother.
However, early on,
they were studying mother
baby relationships.
So in the Strange Situation
experiment, Mary Ainsworth would
(15:17):
have these mother baby pairs go
in to a room, the mother and baby
would be playing with each other.
The mother would be very
attentive, and then
a stranger would enter the room.
When the stranger entered the room,
the mother and baby would keep
playing for a little while,
and then the mother would leave.
(15:38):
And Mary Ainsworth would
study the baby's reaction
to the mother leaving.
So in a secure attachment
relationship, when the mother
left, and actually, I'm
saying baby, but these were
really toddlers in a secure
(15:59):
attachment relationship.
When the mother left,
the baby would cry and be
afraid of the stranger.
And when the mother returned,
the baby would reunite with
the mother, the mother would
comfort the baby, and the baby
would go back to playing.
So that's really what a secure,
(16:21):
attached relationship looks like.
In this experiment, when the mother
and baby were anxiously attached,
the mother would leave, the baby
would cry and be hesitant about
(16:44):
the stranger, and the baby would
have a little bit more trouble
calming down when the mother came
back and seem a little uncertain
and maybe had a harder time going
back to playing, the baby wouldn't
really feel quite safe going back
to playing.
(17:05):
In an avoidant relationship.
What we would see was perhaps
the baby didn't really
mind as much that the stranger
was in the room
and maybe continued to play.
Or when the mother came back,
(17:27):
the baby didn't really have a blip
that the mother was back or.
Sorry, I'm saying
baby again, toddler.
These were toddlers.
Now in a disorganized relationship,
Sometimes it would
When the stranger entered,
the baby would feel.
(17:49):
The toddler would feel more
comforted by the stranger
than by the mother.
So the baby might feel the toddler.
The toddler might feel and look
like they were more engaged
with the stranger and feeling
safer that the stranger
was there than the mother.
(18:11):
So let's talk a little bit more
about attachment, and we're
going to talk about all these
different attachment styles in
a little bit of simpler terms
before we get into what we can
acknowledge about what's
happening today.
(18:32):
So in early research, attachment
was spoken about as sort of a
fixed way of being that based on
our relationships with our
caregivers early on and the
attachment styles they displayed,
we each had a fixed attachment
style that showed up for us in
important relationships,
(18:53):
especially romantic
relationships.
We mostly think about
attachment styles as showing up
in romantic relationships, but our
attachment styles can really
affect any relationship.
I'm saying attachment styles
because that's
what we think about.
(19:15):
However, I think it's important
to have more of a flexible
view of attachment.
So early researchers thought
about it as these fixed ways
of engaging in relationship.
What we understand now is that
we form attachment patterns
(19:37):
based on who we're relating with.
So if I'm relating with somebody
who tends toward secure
attachment, I might engage more
securely with that person.
If I'm relating to somebody who has
more of an avoidant attachment,
(19:58):
who tends more toward avoidant
attachment, and I had a lot of
anxious attachment encoded in my
system, I might tend more toward
anxious attachment When I'm
relating to that person who falls
(20:18):
into more avoidance.
Lindsay and I joke about
when we notice our different
attachment patterns coming up.
I'll say, like,
I'm falling into a pool of avoidance
which actually this background, I think
for those who are not
watching on video, I've got
(20:40):
the space background going.
I think this background is actually the display of falling into a pool of avoidance.
So there you go.That's a good visual.
So I think when we think of
attachment styles as being fixed,
it can feel very shaming.
(21:02):
It can feel like we didn't choose
to be anxiously attached.
That was the experience
from our caregivers.
And so the behaviors that show up
with anxious attachment are based
(21:25):
on trying to get our needs met.
When we think about attachment
as patterns or pools
and that they're more flexible,
it also gives room to acknowledge
that we all have the capacity
for secure attachment.
Secure attachment is not
(21:47):
the end all, be all.
Of course, we want to try to build
secure relationships, and secure
relationships actually happen in
the space of rupture and repair.
A researcher that we'll talk a
(22:08):
bit more about later, Ed
Tronick, actually wrote a whole
book called "The Power of
Discord," which I'll share in
the show notes, and this book
talks about that.
Actually, secure attachment
is not built from having
our needs met all the time.
It's built in the space
of rupture and repair.
(22:28):
So that's really important
to acknowledge and think about.
It also makes me think about that
in the early stages of dating.
Why I'm going away from
thinking about the early stages
of dating as really playing
(22:48):
out attachment patterns is because
there's not a lot
of room for rupture and repair.
Like in the early stages
of dating, you're choosing
whether or not you want
to move forward with somebody.
You're not really engaging
in the rupture repair piece.
So we'll talk more
about that later.
Ed Tronick actually speaks about how
(23:10):
in order to build
a secure attachment relationship,
and this is really important
for parents to note.
It's always been a huge relief
for me when I'm thinking about
parenting, that we need to have
our needs met correctly,
we need to be attuned to correctly
only 33% of the time.
(23:35):
So the other percentage of the time
is the space of rupture.
And as long as we make the repairs
after we have the ruptures, we are
building secure relationships.
So, that being said,
(23:56):
let's talk a bit about
these different attachment styles.
So for secure attachment as a
toddler, this looks like being
able to have a healthy distance
from the parent while looking
back to make sure the parent is
still in proximity and that the
parent has instilled enough
safety and presence within the
(24:17):
baby to make the baby feel safe
enough to do things
independently, knowing they can
return to the parent.
So secure attachment is,
I can feel you with me
even when you're not there.
I've encoded you
deeply in my presence.
So even when you're not there,
I'm experiencing your safety.
(24:40):
So some qualities that show
up in secure attachment
for adults would be trust.
They tend to have a comfort
with intimacy.
They are pretty
emotionally available.
They're comfortable in a space
of rupture and repair.
(25:03):
They tend to have
good communication.
They are okay doing
things independently
and then coming together.
They have appropriate boundaries.
They don't get nervous or
(25:23):
jealous around a partner
doing things independently.
They're just very comfortable
in the state of the relationship.
There's a lot of room for
curiosity and exploration within
the relationship.
(25:45):
So let's talk a bit
about anxious attachment.
So as babies, this might
have looked like uncertainty
on when needs would be
met and when they wouldn't.
Sometimes caregivers would be very
responsive, while other times they
were maybe not responsive at all.
And so I think about
anxious attachment as like,
(26:07):
are you with me?
How do I know that you're with me?
And so for adults, a lot of
times that can show up as
seeking reassurance because we
want to look for the
confirmation that somebody is
with us, that somebody is
fully present with us, that
they're not going to leave.
This can mean some fear
(26:28):
of abandonment.
Sometimes it can be cause
of codependent relationships,
which also is a term that
gets thrown around a lot.
So I don't want to throw
it around too much.
But this feeling of, I don't want
my partner to leave, I don't
want to be without my partner.
(26:48):
Sometimes with anxious attachment,
there can be a difficulty
in trusting others and holding
healthy boundaries with others.
And we might really depend
on our partner for reassurance
and for our sense of self.
As babies, we actually
(27:11):
form our sense of self
around our caregiver.
So as like very small infants,
we only know that we exist
when our caregiver is nearby.
And I think about this a lot
with anxious attachment because
it's like wanting that person
to delight in you, wanting that
(27:33):
person to affirm your existence
and your self worth.
So with avoidant attachment,
this might have looked like
becoming self reliant
even as a baby or infant, because
needs were not often met.
(27:54):
And so the baby really had to
figure out how to get their needs
met and how to depend on
themselves to get their needs met.
So as adults, this might
look like holding emotional
distance, fearing intimacy
and vulnerability,
(28:17):
feeling fearful around
deep vulnerable relationships.
It's really a fear of that person
leaving or not meeting your needs.
And so if you tend toward
avoidance, you might be the
person who leaves because you
don't want to experience the
hurt later on there might be a
(28:39):
struggle to self soothe with
difficult emotions.
So instead the emotions
are pretty cut off.
And I think in modern day
we think about avoidance
a lot as correlating with
behaviors like ghosting.
I think we think of anxious
(29:00):
attachment as correlating
with behaviors like limerence.
So with disorganized attachment,
this tends to show up a lot more.
For folks who experienced abuse.
So as babies, this was probably
(29:23):
categorized by an abusive
caregiving experience.
Whether that was emotionally or
physically.
It could have been growing up in
a very explosive, angry household.
This is where the caregiver
was a source of love and comfort,
but also a great source of fear.
(29:44):
So with disorganized attachment,
there's a lot more inconsistent
and unpredictable behavior.
There can often be a push
and pull dynamic
when it gets to the extreme.
Often with disorganized attachment,
this can lead to repeating
those patterns of abuse.
And so those who tend toward
(30:06):
disorganization are more likely
to repeat that cycle of abuse.
There can be hypervigilance
around signs of rejection or
abandonment and a difficulty
in trusting others.
Love and intimacy can be
something that is feared because
(30:29):
it can often go, it was often
gone along with hurt.
And a lot of times
with disorganized attachment,
this can also tend toward
like dissociation and numbness.
And many folks who experience
(30:49):
disorganization also have a lot
of trauma to work through.
So what do we need to note when
we're thinking about attachment
theory in response to modern day?
First of all, your attachment
pattern or pool that you tend
(31:10):
towards is not a fixed state.
I said this before
and I'm saying it again.
Everyone is capable
of secure attachment and building
a secure relationship.
It takes a lot of self awareness
and a lot of deep work.
And the self awareness and deep
work don't just happen
(31:30):
in the therapy room, they happen
literally in relationships.
So how can you be getting
to more depth in your friendships?
How can you be working
through rupture and repair
in your friendships and be
aware of what happens?
One of my biggest growth points
in working through
my own attachment shit has been
(31:52):
participating in a process group.
So within a process group, you're
working on attachment patterns
through the relationships that
you have with group members.
This is super uncomfortable because
you're literally getting in fights
(32:13):
with people and working through.
You're bringing alive
your experience of other people
and how they experience you.
And it really helps dropping in
and doing very deep work.
The other thing I want to note is
that just because you have the
(32:33):
experience of an attachment
pattern, just because you tend
toward a certain attachment
pattern doesn't mean you're
acting on it.
So I'll speak to my experience
because I do tend toward
anxious attachment though it's
really gotten a lot better.
I've done a lot of healing there.
(32:56):
A lot of times
because my anxiety can be so
intense and I can really feel
the anxiousness in the early
stages of a relationship,
I feel like that anxiety is
bleeding out toward my partner.
Like they can really
(33:16):
feel my anxiety.
It's one thing to feel
the anxiety and it's another thing
to act on the anxiety.
So even though I'm having this
intense anxious experience, I'm
not frantically texting, I'm being
with my anxiousness, I'm checking
(33:37):
in with my anxious parts and I'm
managing that anxiety before I'm
responding.
Within a relationship, of course,
and especially as you more
deeply connect with people,
our attachment patterns will show
up in the relationship.
(33:57):
However, in the early stages, I
think we're feeling them a lot
more than we're acting on them.
And so we don't have to be
anxious about the anxious feeling
and anxious about the partner
or the potential partner
feeling that feeling.
(34:20):
So there's that piece.
The other piece I want to talk
about is that when we're talking
about attachment theory, we're
talking about the imprint of our
caregiving relationships on our
attachment system and how that
forms patterns in our nervous
(34:41):
system to help us know how to
respond to people we're in
relationship with in order to
get our needs met.
But attachment theory,
and especially in relation
to romantic relationships was
researched and is still thought
(35:03):
about as how it shows up
in long term relationships.
So we'll certainly have
our attachment patterns show
up in early dating.
However, this person
is not yet a secure base.
(35:24):
So we're looking toward a partner
to become a secure base.
And that doesn't usually happen
for quite some time.
I think that sometimes we confuse
the anxiousness
and excitement of early dating
with attachment patterns.
(35:45):
And I think we really need to
take a step back and acknowledge
that attachment theory
is researched on long term
relationships and relationships
with our caregivers.
I think that can help to take
(36:06):
some of the pressure off
and some of the internalizing
that we do around how we show
up early on in dating.
We can have all the awareness
for our own experience.
We can talk in therapy
(36:26):
about our own experience.
We can talk with our friends
about our own experience, how my
anxious parts are showing up.
We will not understand what's
happening inside of somebody else
because we haven't formed that
depth of relationship with them.
So we might be feeling
(36:49):
like we're experiencing
some avoidant behavior.
Ghosting might feel like
avoidant behavior.
However, when we're using
attachment theory to
victim blame for the anxious folks
and pin perpetration
(37:10):
on the avoidant folks,
we're losing the whole plot.
And so I really encourage
folks to tune more
into their own experience.
When you're in the early stages
of dating, how does this person
make your nervous system
feel when you're with them?
(37:30):
What are the little
cues that you're getting to them
maybe becoming a secure base?
But we can't use attachment theory
in the way that they're using it
on social media to explain away
the early stages of dating.
(37:54):
Now I want to talk about what's
happening in this modern world
and kind of put it all together.
So I spoke before about
Ed Tronick who, who is a
researcher and he wrote the
book "The Power of Discord,"
(38:15):
which is a wonderful book
about rupture and repair and
how it relates to attachment.
So in the 80s, Ed Tronick had done
the still face experiment where
he would have parents engaging
with an infant, like making faces.
The infant would be
cooing, they would be
very playful together.
(38:35):
And then all of a sudden the mother
would just look away and not
engage at all with the baby.
You can look this up.
This experiment is available
on YouTube and you see the babies
doing whatever they can to try
to re-engage the mother.
And the mother is
(38:56):
just looking away.
Then eventually the baby goes into
a state of distress and starts
crying because they're not able
to re-engage with the mother.
Then the mother eventually
re-engages with the baby
and they start playing together.
The mother touches the toes, etc.
(39:19):
I think this is so Important
and chilling with what is
happening right now in the way
we engage digitally when we go
towards our phones, we are
playing out the still face
experiment.
So if you're on a date with
(39:40):
somebody, or even if you're with
your partner and you're talking
and talking and then you go to
engage with your phone, you're
literally looking away from your
partner.
You're not present.
You are playing out
the still face experiment.
That is a point of rupture.
The other piece of this is we
(40:03):
are engaging with our flat screens
and it's taking away
the humanity of connection.
We have no tie to somebody
on a screen.
We're not taking them in as 3D.
(40:25):
When we are with somebody, we
can tell the most subtle cues
in their facial expressions
as a way to determine
their emotional experience.
And if they're being present with
us, we need to see the animation
in people's faces in order to
(40:49):
have attunement, to be present,
to feel resonance with each other.
I'm thinking of dating apps
and engaging in app culture as
sort of a still face experiment.
It's allowed for these shallow
and disposable connections.
(41:09):
And I think the way that we've
engaged with dating apps
and dating app culture and how
this has shifted how we build
relationships is changing us
on an evolutionary level.
Now, I'm a licensed therapist.
These are just things that
I'm thinking about
based on what I've read.
(41:30):
I haven't done the research on it.
These are the beginnings
of my thoughts around it.
But I think it's really important
to understand attachment
theory in this way and understand
how this is changing
(41:51):
the way that we connect.
So in that same vein of looking
at the cultural piece, we've
never had access to this many
choices of partners before.
We know, I'm sure we've heard
this many times, that the brain
was not supposed to have access
to this many options.
(42:12):
The brain cannot handle
choosing a partner in this way.
It causes us to always be looking
for something better
and to try to form
relationships via a flat screen.
Where we can't take in the
subtleties of somebody's
presence, where we can't feel
what it feels to be with
them, where we can't
experience that nervous
(42:33):
system connection with them.
It's caused us to experience
these new ways of interacting
which I also want
to address that are facets of
the dating culture, but that are
causing a deep impact that I don't
think folks are understanding.
So I...
(42:53):
These are just two facets that
I want to touch on, which is
Ghosting, where somebody just ends
communication suddenly and you
never hear from them again.
Often when we're ghosted, we end
up blaming ourselves to put the
pieces together as to what
happened, which is similar to
(43:15):
when we're kids and we
experience rupture or harm from
our caregivers.
We often turn the blame towards
ourselves instead of blaming
our caregivers because it's safer
to blame ourselves
as it's then within our control.
I think we do the same thing
(43:35):
with ghosting, where
we blame ourselves for what went
wrong instead of just
acknowledging it as poor behavior
that's a result of dating culture.
Ghosting can be very
traumatic for folks.
When I'm working with people in
therapy, I've seen very
traumatic effects of ghosting,
especially when it happens with
(43:57):
people that you've built a
relationship with, not just
somebody that you've spoken to
for a little while in the app
and end communication.
And we think about ghosting
and when we're talking about
the sort of victim,
perpetrator mentality of
anxious and avoidant, we
think of ghosting a lot more
as an avoidant behavior.
(44:18):
Then there is this idea
of limerance, shout out
to the gorgeous Lucy Daucus song
"Limerence," which is a state of
really intense romantic
infatuation and obsession.
Oftentimes with limerence, you're
forming this idea of what
the relationship could
look like and becoming very
(44:39):
attached to the idea before
you actually know somebody.
So this causes us to have really
great disappointment and
heartbreak when a relationship
doesn't work out, even if it's a
very early stage relationship,
because we've kind of pictured
this future that we wanted to
have with somebody.
(45:01):
So all this to say we've talked
about attachment,
we've talked about how dating apps
and app culture
is changing us evolutionarily.
Where do we go from here?
So we need more research on what's
happening in the way that we
(45:21):
build relationships in this age.
I'm sure they're cooking
something up
in universities right now, I hope.
I think therapists need to have
a much deeper understanding
of how clients are forming
relationships and not think of
dating apps as this taboo thing.
It is so common that people are
(45:43):
using them and we have to
understand what behaviors are
happening from app culture, what
behaviors are happening from our
attachment systems and how those
two things are working together
to maybe put us in not that great
of a place and understand how
(46:03):
it's affecting us.
We need to understand our own
attachment systems and not try
to understand or make excuses for
others early on in relationships.
We need to understand that
in an early relationship
somebody cannot be a secure base
and we need to do a lot more
(46:25):
interacting with humans.
We need to develop
behaviors because we're going
to be using the apps.
Moving forward, I would love
to see us develop more etiquette
around using apps
and really thinking of interacting
(46:46):
with people as humans rather
than people on a flat screen.
What can you do to engage
as a human on the apps rather than
engaging in the flat screen?
We need to be working backwards.
(47:07):
So we need to be spending time
with friends doing the things that
make us feel alive and human.
And I spoke about how the
inspiration for talking about
this was sort of Tinx's Summer
of Outside episode where she
really pushes that in this time
(47:29):
of being in the digital world
and seeing the huge risk and
deficit that it's having on us,
we have to interact with each
other as humans and do the
things that make us human.
Instead of asking chatGPT, go find a book.
I know that it makes
it easier for us.
(47:49):
It's also very scary.
Instead of going on an app
to meet somebody, try going
out and talking to strangers.
Smile more at people.
What can we do to be a safe base
(48:12):
for people out in the world and to
have more people who are around us
that can be a safe base for us?
I hope this wasn't too depressing.
I hope that you gained
some information
(48:33):
on attachment theory and how,
I'm sort of in the early stages of
developing my view on where we're
at now and what we need to think
about in terms of attachment
theory and I hope I did my co-host
proud.
(48:53):
So on that note, keep on Hilling.
Thank you for listening.
Thank you so much for joining us.
If you liked what you heard, please
subscribe and consider leaving
a review if you haven't already.
Thank you.
You can find us on all socials
at the Hilling Journey.
You can find us online
at www.thehillingjourney.com
and you can shoot us an email
(49:13):
at thehillingjourney@gmail.com
talk soon.
We are licensed
therapists, but we probably
aren't your therapists.
While we may share helpful
information about mental health,
it is best to form your individual
(00:20):
care plan with your own
mental health professional.
If we are your therapists, hi.
While this podcast shares nuggets
of wisdom about mental health,
we are sharing many pieces of
who we are outside of the therapy
room and doing a lot of yapping
about nonsense, our own healing
work, and some about sex and
dating.
If you feel listening
to this podcast may interfere
with your work in therapy,
(00:41):
please refrain from doing so.
While we're on the subject,
Any notes from our dating
lives have been changed
to protect the privacy of our
partners and ourselves.
Thanks for listening.
Welcome to the Hilling
Journey podcast.
I'm Ilyse Kennedy and my co host,
Lindsay Camp is indisposed
this week, so I'm going to be
doing a small solo episode.
(01:01):
But usually this is a podcast
where two therapist besties
talk about their hilling
journeys, talk to others on
their hilling journeys, and
interview hillers who have
helped along the way.
So I've noticed a trend
on social media of dating coaches
talking about the anxious
avoidant attachment dance.
(01:23):
They're usually men making
grand statements about avoidance.
And when they're talking about
these avoidants, I think
they're usually talking about
men that end up dating a woman
for a little bit of time and
(01:44):
then ditching out on the
relationship.
I've also noticed an increase in
clients that are deeply affected
by the current dating climate,
but I think research and
information about how we date
and have relationships with each
other hasn't yet caught up to
(02:04):
the way that we're having
relationships now.
I think people are confusing the
information we're getting on
social media about anxious and
avoidance in dating with actual
attachment theory and that many
of us don't have the translation
of attachment theories that can
help us in the early stages of
(02:26):
dating or in this way that we
date now.
I don't think that before
I had tried dating apps I had any
grasp on how clients were
experiencing being
in relationships and the struggles
that they were having with dating.
(02:48):
When I got into my partnership,
I was in my early 20s.
People met very organically.
I had a large group of friends
and people would meet
each other all the time.
I think it was kind
of the beginning stages
of dating apps.
(03:08):
We were maybe just coming out of
the OkCupid type stuff, but it was
a very, very different time
and dating apps were not very
heavily used during that time.
I would have clients prior
talk about being ghosted or
(03:30):
what they were experiencing
on the apps and I just couldn't
conceive of it because I hadn't
experienced it myself.
I think a lot of therapists have
been trained and educated in
attachment theory, but maybe
haven't actually experienced the
(03:51):
way that people are relating to
each other in modern day and
building relationships.
And so I've been thinking a lot
about this and I truly think
that we need a lot more research.
I think people are just starting
to form ideas about how this world
(04:13):
of apps and the digital
world is changing our brains.
I think it's changing our
brains significantly.
I think it's changing
the way that we relate to each
other significantly.
I think a lot of people
are feeling the grief around
this and the very sad, defeating
(04:37):
effects of looking for partnership
and deep connection.
But because of the way that we
connect with each other now,
we're not really experiencing
partnership that's as deep.
We're not experiencing
the way that we've seen love
portrayed in the movies.
(04:59):
We're in some sort of an in
between space where we were
raised on "The Notebook" and we
want to fall in love and make
out in the rain and have these
beautiful connective experiences
with each other.
(05:20):
But we're moving more
towards the movie "Her" and I hear this talked
about a lot lately where it feels
like there's no in between.
It feels like we really want that great, wonderful, deep love but we're like talking to bots and AI.
(05:42):
People are literally getting
therapy from AI these days.
People are literally able to
sext with AI these days.
And so we're kind of getting taken
into this digital world.
I was really inspired by the
(06:04):
episode of Tinx's podcast
where she talks about summer of
outside 2025, and Summer of
Outside was a concept she
developed as a way to get off
the apps and just interact with
humans and meet people
(06:26):
organically to like join a
sports team during the summer.
Or Austin folks, go to Barton Springs.
Like talk to your Barton Springs crush.
But what she's talking about in
this latest episode is how
dire it is right now that we
(06:46):
make connections with other
humans because we're really
getting sucked into this
digital world.
And she had shared this article
from the New York Times that
talks about how we are literally
heading towards extinction
because we're getting more lured
to the digital world than the
(07:09):
human world.
And I think we have to acknowledge
and recognize that when we're
thinking about how we're building
relationships these days.
So I want to take it back and I
want to give you some context
around attachment theory.
(07:30):
And then I want to talk to you
about how we can use attachment
theory in dating relationships
and in the early stages of dating.
But we don't want to be using
it as they're using it on
social media right now in the
(07:50):
pop psychology sense where
it's this victim perpetrator
dynamic around folks who are
anxiously attached and
avoidant attached.
I want to help you understand
more around attachment theory
and then we can talk about how we
(08:11):
can start to translate this for
what's happening in modern day.
So I always like to start off
with talking about some of
the history of attachment theory
and I will put in the show notes
if you want to do a deeper dive.
This is going to be like
maybe a 45 minute podcast.
(08:32):
So we can only dive to really
the surface of attachment theory.
So if you want to do a deeper
dive, I'll share some
resources that I really love.
So attachment theory is basically
patterns that we've developed
as infants in order to get our
needs met by our caregivers.
(08:55):
When we think about attachment
theory, we think about how
literally we need connection
with others in order to survive.
As infants, we completely rely
on our caregivers for survival.
We we rely on them
to respond to our needs.
When we make cues around what we
(09:16):
need to determine if our cries
mean that we need to eat or have
our diapers changed or sleep.
And so we rely on our caregivers
to attune to us
in order to meet our needs.
The way in which our needs are
met or or not met is how our
(09:38):
attachment systems start to form
and we encode in our nervous
systems how to get our needs met.
Early on we just cry and hopefully
(09:59):
our caregivers meet our needs.
As we learn the patterns of how
to get our needs met, we start to
adjust how we get our needs met.
So for example, if I--as I start to
grow and maybe I'm a six month old
(10:20):
baby, I start to notice that my
caregivers respond much more to
when I coo or laugh and they give
me a snack when I coo or laugh
versus when I cry, they turn away
from me,
I start to tend towards cooing
and laughter to get my needs met
(10:41):
rather than crying.
So because of these early
attachment relationships and that
we need the attunement of our
caregivers in order to survive,
we actually need relationships
throughout life.
We need connection in order to survive.
(11:04):
Seeking connection and wanting connection is a normal human trait.
I think there can be some
thought around dating apps and
I even fall into this where it
can feel embarrassing like it
feels embarrassing to put
yourself out there and want to
(11:26):
connect.
And actually, it's a very
human need, and this is now
a resource that we have
to seek that connection.
So as we grow, relationships
are not necessarily life or death
for survival,
but evolutionarily, we depend
(11:48):
on relationships for survival.
So let's talk a bit about how
attachment theory developed.
And this is not going into the full
depth of history,
but I want to shout out our man, John Bowlby.
So in the 1950s, John Bolby
was a psychoanalyst, and he began
(12:09):
to research and describe
the way humans related to each
other from a psychological
and evolutionary perspective.
So he understood that
this evolutionary perspective also
explains why the way we relate
to each other changes over time.
So that's important to note
for how we're thinking of how
(12:30):
we relate to each other now.
Like, now that we're relating
to each other in the digital
sense, I think it's changing
some of our attachment
patterns and changing how we
seek connection and how we
attain connection.
So Bowlby studied early
(12:51):
relationships that infants have
with their caregivers, as well as
what happens when infants do
not have access to close
relationships with a caregiver.
There are early videos
of babies in the hospital without
caregivers, because at that
(13:11):
time, they believed that when
people were sick, they needed
to be kept away from others.
The babies that were
in the hospital for a long period
of time didn't properly develop.
So they stopped crying.
They weren't able to speak, they
(13:32):
weren't able to make eye contact.
You can literally see the effects
of the babies not having
connection with anyone.
And it's very, very sad.
So Bowlby studied these early
relationships that infants
have with their caregivers.
And I'm not going to give
(13:53):
the entire history of attachment
theory for today's purposes,
since it's very extensive.
But further down the line
our queen icon, legend, Mary Ainsworth
further developed the theory with her study
the Strange Situation Experiment.
So Ainsworth and Bowlby are how we
got to these four attachment
(14:16):
styles that we kind of take today.
So the Strange Situation Experiment
was conducted beginning
in the 1980s, where Mary Ainsworth
would have mother and baby pairs.
(14:36):
So attachment theory was studied
mostly with mothers at that time.
We were not where we're at today
with feminism, even though
Mary Ainsworth was a queen.
And so we have an understanding now
that attachment relationships
(14:57):
and attachment patterns can happen
with any significant caregiver.
It does not have to be a mother.
However, early on,
they were studying mother
baby relationships.
So in the Strange Situation
experiment, Mary Ainsworth would
(15:17):
have these mother baby pairs go
in to a room, the mother and baby
would be playing with each other.
The mother would be very
attentive, and then
a stranger would enter the room.
When the stranger entered the room,
the mother and baby would keep
playing for a little while,
and then the mother would leave.
(15:38):
And Mary Ainsworth would
study the baby's reaction
to the mother leaving.
So in a secure attachment
relationship, when the mother
left, and actually, I'm
saying baby, but these were
really toddlers in a secure
(15:59):
attachment relationship.
When the mother left,
the baby would cry and be
afraid of the stranger.
And when the mother returned,
the baby would reunite with
the mother, the mother would
comfort the baby, and the baby
would go back to playing.
So that's really what a secure,
(16:21):
attached relationship looks like.
In this experiment, when the mother
and baby were anxiously attached,
the mother would leave, the baby
would cry and be hesitant about
(16:44):
the stranger, and the baby would
have a little bit more trouble
calming down when the mother came
back and seem a little uncertain
and maybe had a harder time going
back to playing, the baby wouldn't
really feel quite safe going back
to playing.
(17:05):
In an avoidant relationship.
What we would see was perhaps
the baby didn't really
mind as much that the stranger
was in the room
and maybe continued to play.
Or when the mother came back,
(17:27):
the baby didn't really have a blip
that the mother was back or.
Sorry, I'm saying
baby again, toddler.
These were toddlers.
Now in a disorganized relationship,
Sometimes it would
When the stranger entered,
the baby would feel.
(17:49):
The toddler would feel more
comforted by the stranger
than by the mother.
So the baby might feel the toddler.
The toddler might feel and look
like they were more engaged
with the stranger and feeling
safer that the stranger
was there than the mother.
(18:11):
So let's talk a little bit more
about attachment, and we're
going to talk about all these
different attachment styles in
a little bit of simpler terms
before we get into what we can
acknowledge about what's
happening today.
(18:32):
So in early research, attachment
was spoken about as sort of a
fixed way of being that based on
our relationships with our
caregivers early on and the
attachment styles they displayed,
we each had a fixed attachment
style that showed up for us in
important relationships,
(18:53):
especially romantic
relationships.
We mostly think about
attachment styles as showing up
in romantic relationships, but our
attachment styles can really
affect any relationship.
I'm saying attachment styles
because that's
what we think about.
(19:15):
However, I think it's important
to have more of a flexible
view of attachment.
So early researchers thought
about it as these fixed ways
of engaging in relationship.
What we understand now is that
we form attachment patterns
(19:37):
based on who we're relating with.
So if I'm relating with somebody
who tends toward secure
attachment, I might engage more
securely with that person.
If I'm relating to somebody who has
more of an avoidant attachment,
(19:58):
who tends more toward avoidant
attachment, and I had a lot of
anxious attachment encoded in my
system, I might tend more toward
anxious attachment When I'm
relating to that person who falls
(20:18):
into more avoidance.
Lindsay and I joke about
when we notice our different
attachment patterns coming up.
I'll say, like,
I'm falling into a pool of avoidance
which actually this background, I think
for those who are not
watching on video, I've got
(20:40):
the space background going.
I think this background is actually the display of falling into a pool of avoidance.
So there you go.That's a good visual.
So I think when we think of
attachment styles as being fixed,
it can feel very shaming.
(21:02):
It can feel like we didn't choose
to be anxiously attached.
That was the experience
from our caregivers.
And so the behaviors that show up
with anxious attachment are based
(21:25):
on trying to get our needs met.
When we think about attachment
as patterns or pools
and that they're more flexible,
it also gives room to acknowledge
that we all have the capacity
for secure attachment.
Secure attachment is not
(21:47):
the end all, be all.
Of course, we want to try to build
secure relationships, and secure
relationships actually happen in
the space of rupture and repair.
A researcher that we'll talk a
(22:08):
bit more about later, Ed
Tronick, actually wrote a whole
book called "The Power of
Discord," which I'll share in
the show notes, and this book
talks about that.
Actually, secure attachment
is not built from having
our needs met all the time.
It's built in the space
of rupture and repair.
(22:28):
So that's really important
to acknowledge and think about.
It also makes me think about that
in the early stages of dating.
Why I'm going away from
thinking about the early stages
of dating as really playing
(22:48):
out attachment patterns is because
there's not a lot
of room for rupture and repair.
Like in the early stages
of dating, you're choosing
whether or not you want
to move forward with somebody.
You're not really engaging
in the rupture repair piece.
So we'll talk more
about that later.
Ed Tronick actually speaks about how
(23:10):
in order to build
a secure attachment relationship,
and this is really important
for parents to note.
It's always been a huge relief
for me when I'm thinking about
parenting, that we need to have
our needs met correctly,
we need to be attuned to correctly
only 33% of the time.
(23:35):
So the other percentage of the time
is the space of rupture.
And as long as we make the repairs
after we have the ruptures, we are
building secure relationships.
So, that being said,
(23:56):
let's talk a bit about
these different attachment styles.
So for secure attachment as a
toddler, this looks like being
able to have a healthy distance
from the parent while looking
back to make sure the parent is
still in proximity and that the
parent has instilled enough
safety and presence within the
(24:17):
baby to make the baby feel safe
enough to do things
independently, knowing they can
return to the parent.
So secure attachment is,
I can feel you with me
even when you're not there.
I've encoded you
deeply in my presence.
So even when you're not there,
I'm experiencing your safety.
(24:40):
So some qualities that show
up in secure attachment
for adults would be trust.
They tend to have a comfort
with intimacy.
They are pretty
emotionally available.
They're comfortable in a space
of rupture and repair.
(25:03):
They tend to have
good communication.
They are okay doing
things independently
and then coming together.
They have appropriate boundaries.
They don't get nervous or
(25:23):
jealous around a partner
doing things independently.
They're just very comfortable
in the state of the relationship.
There's a lot of room for
curiosity and exploration within
the relationship.
(25:45):
So let's talk a bit
about anxious attachment.
So as babies, this might
have looked like uncertainty
on when needs would be
met and when they wouldn't.
Sometimes caregivers would be very
responsive, while other times they
were maybe not responsive at all.
And so I think about
anxious attachment as like,
(26:07):
are you with me?
How do I know that you're with me?
And so for adults, a lot of
times that can show up as
seeking reassurance because we
want to look for the
confirmation that somebody is
with us, that somebody is
fully present with us, that
they're not going to leave.
This can mean some fear
(26:28):
of abandonment.
Sometimes it can be cause
of codependent relationships,
which also is a term that
gets thrown around a lot.
So I don't want to throw
it around too much.
But this feeling of, I don't want
my partner to leave, I don't
want to be without my partner.
(26:48):
Sometimes with anxious attachment,
there can be a difficulty
in trusting others and holding
healthy boundaries with others.
And we might really depend
on our partner for reassurance
and for our sense of self.
As babies, we actually
(27:11):
form our sense of self
around our caregiver.
So as like very small infants,
we only know that we exist
when our caregiver is nearby.
And I think about this a lot
with anxious attachment because
it's like wanting that person
to delight in you, wanting that
(27:33):
person to affirm your existence
and your self worth.
So with avoidant attachment,
this might have looked like
becoming self reliant
even as a baby or infant, because
needs were not often met.
(27:54):
And so the baby really had to
figure out how to get their needs
met and how to depend on
themselves to get their needs met.
So as adults, this might
look like holding emotional
distance, fearing intimacy
and vulnerability,
(28:17):
feeling fearful around
deep vulnerable relationships.
It's really a fear of that person
leaving or not meeting your needs.
And so if you tend toward
avoidance, you might be the
person who leaves because you
don't want to experience the
hurt later on there might be a
(28:39):
struggle to self soothe with
difficult emotions.
So instead the emotions
are pretty cut off.
And I think in modern day
we think about avoidance
a lot as correlating with
behaviors like ghosting.
I think we think of anxious
(29:00):
attachment as correlating
with behaviors like limerence.
So with disorganized attachment,
this tends to show up a lot more.
For folks who experienced abuse.
So as babies, this was probably
(29:23):
categorized by an abusive
caregiving experience.
Whether that was emotionally or
physically.
It could have been growing up in
a very explosive, angry household.
This is where the caregiver
was a source of love and comfort,
but also a great source of fear.
(29:44):
So with disorganized attachment,
there's a lot more inconsistent
and unpredictable behavior.
There can often be a push
and pull dynamic
when it gets to the extreme.
Often with disorganized attachment,
this can lead to repeating
those patterns of abuse.
And so those who tend toward
(30:06):
disorganization are more likely
to repeat that cycle of abuse.
There can be hypervigilance
around signs of rejection or
abandonment and a difficulty
in trusting others.
Love and intimacy can be
something that is feared because
(30:29):
it can often go, it was often
gone along with hurt.
And a lot of times
with disorganized attachment,
this can also tend toward
like dissociation and numbness.
And many folks who experience
(30:49):
disorganization also have a lot
of trauma to work through.
So what do we need to note when
we're thinking about attachment
theory in response to modern day?
First of all, your attachment
pattern or pool that you tend
(31:10):
towards is not a fixed state.
I said this before
and I'm saying it again.
Everyone is capable
of secure attachment and building
a secure relationship.
It takes a lot of self awareness
and a lot of deep work.
And the self awareness and deep
work don't just happen
(31:30):
in the therapy room, they happen
literally in relationships.
So how can you be getting
to more depth in your friendships?
How can you be working
through rupture and repair
in your friendships and be
aware of what happens?
One of my biggest growth points
in working through
my own attachment shit has been
(31:52):
participating in a process group.
So within a process group, you're
working on attachment patterns
through the relationships that
you have with group members.
This is super uncomfortable because
you're literally getting in fights
(32:13):
with people and working through.
You're bringing alive
your experience of other people
and how they experience you.
And it really helps dropping in
and doing very deep work.
The other thing I want to note is
that just because you have the
(32:33):
experience of an attachment
pattern, just because you tend
toward a certain attachment
pattern doesn't mean you're
acting on it.
So I'll speak to my experience
because I do tend toward
anxious attachment though it's
really gotten a lot better.
I've done a lot of healing there.
(32:56):
A lot of times
because my anxiety can be so
intense and I can really feel
the anxiousness in the early
stages of a relationship,
I feel like that anxiety is
bleeding out toward my partner.
Like they can really
(33:16):
feel my anxiety.
It's one thing to feel
the anxiety and it's another thing
to act on the anxiety.
So even though I'm having this
intense anxious experience, I'm
not frantically texting, I'm being
with my anxiousness, I'm checking
(33:37):
in with my anxious parts and I'm
managing that anxiety before I'm
responding.
Within a relationship, of course,
and especially as you more
deeply connect with people,
our attachment patterns will show
up in the relationship.
(33:57):
However, in the early stages, I
think we're feeling them a lot
more than we're acting on them.
And so we don't have to be
anxious about the anxious feeling
and anxious about the partner
or the potential partner
feeling that feeling.
(34:20):
So there's that piece.
The other piece I want to talk
about is that when we're talking
about attachment theory, we're
talking about the imprint of our
caregiving relationships on our
attachment system and how that
forms patterns in our nervous
(34:41):
system to help us know how to
respond to people we're in
relationship with in order to
get our needs met.
But attachment theory,
and especially in relation
to romantic relationships was
researched and is still thought
(35:03):
about as how it shows up
in long term relationships.
So we'll certainly have
our attachment patterns show
up in early dating.
However, this person
is not yet a secure base.
(35:24):
So we're looking toward a partner
to become a secure base.
And that doesn't usually happen
for quite some time.
I think that sometimes we confuse
the anxiousness
and excitement of early dating
with attachment patterns.
(35:45):
And I think we really need to
take a step back and acknowledge
that attachment theory
is researched on long term
relationships and relationships
with our caregivers.
I think that can help to take
(36:06):
some of the pressure off
and some of the internalizing
that we do around how we show
up early on in dating.
We can have all the awareness
for our own experience.
We can talk in therapy
(36:26):
about our own experience.
We can talk with our friends
about our own experience, how my
anxious parts are showing up.
We will not understand what's
happening inside of somebody else
because we haven't formed that
depth of relationship with them.
So we might be feeling
(36:49):
like we're experiencing
some avoidant behavior.
Ghosting might feel like
avoidant behavior.
However, when we're using
attachment theory to
victim blame for the anxious folks
and pin perpetration
(37:10):
on the avoidant folks,
we're losing the whole plot.
And so I really encourage
folks to tune more
into their own experience.
When you're in the early stages
of dating, how does this person
make your nervous system
feel when you're with them?
(37:30):
What are the little
cues that you're getting to them
maybe becoming a secure base?
But we can't use attachment theory
in the way that they're using it
on social media to explain away
the early stages of dating.
(37:54):
Now I want to talk about what's
happening in this modern world
and kind of put it all together.
So I spoke before about
Ed Tronick who, who is a
researcher and he wrote the
book "The Power of Discord,"
(38:15):
which is a wonderful book
about rupture and repair and
how it relates to attachment.
So in the 80s, Ed Tronick had done
the still face experiment where
he would have parents engaging
with an infant, like making faces.
The infant would be
cooing, they would be
very playful together.
(38:35):
And then all of a sudden the mother
would just look away and not
engage at all with the baby.
You can look this up.
This experiment is available
on YouTube and you see the babies
doing whatever they can to try
to re-engage the mother.
And the mother is
(38:56):
just looking away.
Then eventually the baby goes into
a state of distress and starts
crying because they're not able
to re-engage with the mother.
Then the mother eventually
re-engages with the baby
and they start playing together.
The mother touches the toes, etc.
(39:19):
I think this is so Important
and chilling with what is
happening right now in the way
we engage digitally when we go
towards our phones, we are
playing out the still face
experiment.
So if you're on a date with
(39:40):
somebody, or even if you're with
your partner and you're talking
and talking and then you go to
engage with your phone, you're
literally looking away from your
partner.
You're not present.
You are playing out
the still face experiment.
That is a point of rupture.
The other piece of this is we
(40:03):
are engaging with our flat screens
and it's taking away
the humanity of connection.
We have no tie to somebody
on a screen.
We're not taking them in as 3D.
(40:25):
When we are with somebody, we
can tell the most subtle cues
in their facial expressions
as a way to determine
their emotional experience.
And if they're being present with
us, we need to see the animation
in people's faces in order to
(40:49):
have attunement, to be present,
to feel resonance with each other.
I'm thinking of dating apps
and engaging in app culture as
sort of a still face experiment.
It's allowed for these shallow
and disposable connections.
(41:09):
And I think the way that we've
engaged with dating apps
and dating app culture and how
this has shifted how we build
relationships is changing us
on an evolutionary level.
Now, I'm a licensed therapist.
These are just things that
I'm thinking about
based on what I've read.
(41:30):
I haven't done the research on it.
These are the beginnings
of my thoughts around it.
But I think it's really important
to understand attachment
theory in this way and understand
how this is changing
(41:51):
the way that we connect.
So in that same vein of looking
at the cultural piece, we've
never had access to this many
choices of partners before.
We know, I'm sure we've heard
this many times, that the brain
was not supposed to have access
to this many options.
(42:12):
The brain cannot handle
choosing a partner in this way.
It causes us to always be looking
for something better
and to try to form
relationships via a flat screen.
Where we can't take in the
subtleties of somebody's
presence, where we can't feel
what it feels to be with
them, where we can't
experience that nervous
(42:33):
system connection with them.
It's caused us to experience
these new ways of interacting
which I also want
to address that are facets of
the dating culture, but that are
causing a deep impact that I don't
think folks are understanding.
So I...
(42:53):
These are just two facets that
I want to touch on, which is
Ghosting, where somebody just ends
communication suddenly and you
never hear from them again.
Often when we're ghosted, we end
up blaming ourselves to put the
pieces together as to what
happened, which is similar to
(43:15):
when we're kids and we
experience rupture or harm from
our caregivers.
We often turn the blame towards
ourselves instead of blaming
our caregivers because it's safer
to blame ourselves
as it's then within our control.
I think we do the same thing
(43:35):
with ghosting, where
we blame ourselves for what went
wrong instead of just
acknowledging it as poor behavior
that's a result of dating culture.
Ghosting can be very
traumatic for folks.
When I'm working with people in
therapy, I've seen very
traumatic effects of ghosting,
especially when it happens with
(43:57):
people that you've built a
relationship with, not just
somebody that you've spoken to
for a little while in the app
and end communication.
And we think about ghosting
and when we're talking about
the sort of victim,
perpetrator mentality of
anxious and avoidant, we
think of ghosting a lot more
as an avoidant behavior.
(44:18):
Then there is this idea
of limerance, shout out
to the gorgeous Lucy Daucus song
"Limerence," which is a state of
really intense romantic
infatuation and obsession.
Oftentimes with limerence, you're
forming this idea of what
the relationship could
look like and becoming very
(44:39):
attached to the idea before
you actually know somebody.
So this causes us to have really
great disappointment and
heartbreak when a relationship
doesn't work out, even if it's a
very early stage relationship,
because we've kind of pictured
this future that we wanted to
have with somebody.
(45:01):
So all this to say we've talked
about attachment,
we've talked about how dating apps
and app culture
is changing us evolutionarily.
Where do we go from here?
So we need more research on what's
happening in the way that we
(45:21):
build relationships in this age.
I'm sure they're cooking
something up
in universities right now, I hope.
I think therapists need to have
a much deeper understanding
of how clients are forming
relationships and not think of
dating apps as this taboo thing.
It is so common that people are
(45:43):
using them and we have to
understand what behaviors are
happening from app culture, what
behaviors are happening from our
attachment systems and how those
two things are working together
to maybe put us in not that great
of a place and understand how
(46:03):
it's affecting us.
We need to understand our own
attachment systems and not try
to understand or make excuses for
others early on in relationships.
We need to understand that
in an early relationship
somebody cannot be a secure base
and we need to do a lot more
(46:25):
interacting with humans.
We need to develop
behaviors because we're going
to be using the apps.
Moving forward, I would love
to see us develop more etiquette
around using apps
and really thinking of interacting
(46:46):
with people as humans rather
than people on a flat screen.
What can you do to engage
as a human on the apps rather than
engaging in the flat screen?
We need to be working backwards.
(47:07):
So we need to be spending time
with friends doing the things that
make us feel alive and human.
And I spoke about how the
inspiration for talking about
this was sort of Tinx's Summer
of Outside episode where she
really pushes that in this time
(47:29):
of being in the digital world
and seeing the huge risk and
deficit that it's having on us,
we have to interact with each
other as humans and do the
things that make us human.
Instead of asking chatGPT, go find a book.
I know that it makes
it easier for us.
(47:49):
It's also very scary.
Instead of going on an app
to meet somebody, try going
out and talking to strangers.
Smile more at people.
What can we do to be a safe base
(48:12):
for people out in the world and to
have more people who are around us
that can be a safe base for us?
I hope this wasn't too depressing.
I hope that you gained
some information
(48:33):
on attachment theory and how,
I'm sort of in the early stages of
developing my view on where we're
at now and what we need to think
about in terms of attachment
theory and I hope I did my co-host
proud.
(48:53):
So on that note, keep on Hilling.
Thank you for listening.
Thank you so much for joining us.
If you liked what you heard, please
subscribe and consider leaving
a review if you haven't already.
Thank you.
You can find us on all socials
at the Hilling Journey.
You can find us online
at www.thehillingjourney.com
and you can shoot us an email
(49:13):
at thehillingjourney@gmail.com
talk soon.
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