Ep. 173: The Beginning of the End, Elk Don't Want to Die, and Animal Rights as a Conservation Model with Dr. Robert C. Jones

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Clean your Gun, Janioro, where the Uncollective show Colin Hunters
New and all uncollective show with thanks or fancs that
opinions are subjective. You're listening to the collecting. Hey, everybody,

(00:27):
welcome to another episode of The Hunting Collective. I am,
of course Ben O'Brien, and I'm enjoined by Phil t Engineer.
What did you did you just take a drink of something? There? Phil?
What was that? It wasn't a white claw? Wasn't no? No,
it's ten. I guess it is new on a Friday.
I'd say it's it's open season for white claws, but
it's been open season for at least three hours now.

(00:51):
This is a peach pair Lacroix Peach pear, peach pear
Classic one. If they're more odd flavors, that I think
is actually pretty good. Lastly, gentleman, well, we got a
big recruitment news today. Um. Not only are we gonna
have Nuri Hong on from our California chapter, which which
is by far our hottest chapter. I'm gonna say I'm

(01:12):
gonna use the term hottest chapter of all the chapters
we have in the t HD Cults uh chapters I
don't know how. I still don't know how to kind
of like articulate what's going on there. But so we're
gonna have nurra da. Nobody does Nouri's coming in a minute,
but me and Phil more like, I just had a
brilliant idea about how to get more listeners. We were

(01:33):
just checking on our WiFi and I had an idea.
You gotta there's somebody near you that has interesting WiFi name.
Do they not feel? Yeah, you know, some people try
to be funny and tell their jokes through their WiFi
their router names. I say, don't do that. You're not
as funny as you think you are. But there's someone

(01:55):
in my neighborhood who has their WiFi router is named
bark Dogs Screaming Toddler, which is just a very passive,
aggressive message to a lot of the young families in
this neighborhood. Uh And personally, I'm offended. Maybe it's an
admission of guilt. It's like a thing that they're saying,
I have barking dogs and screaming Toddler's I'm sorry about that.
That's maybe you know label me if you must, I've

(02:18):
got I just pulled mine up, I've got Bippie link
Demon Portal. It's amish time. The viper pit and the
viper pit guest, uh make WiFi great again? Two G
Marty mcwifi. Five G WiFi is solid. That's a good one.
That's a good back. That's funny. That's pretty good. All right,

(02:41):
Well I'll take it. I that literally, I just clicked
on that. I've never written any of those before, and
I'm I'm proud of my neighbors. Uh So, if you're
one of my neighbors, well done. Um. But I think
here's an idea of how to you know, grow the
podcast underground. If you have WiFi, which I'm assuming that
you do, name it each either name it Phil T.

(03:01):
Mango or you can also name it like listen to
the Hunting Collective podcast. And if we get thousands and
thousands of wifis named after our podcast, I think we'll
grow intrinsically. When people are accidentally connect to the Hunting
Collective Podcast WiFi, they're not gonna know what to do about.
They're gonna have to listen at that point once they're connected,
right Phil, Uh yeah, Ben, sure they'll have to. Okay, Thanks,

(03:25):
I thanks for your support as always, I before we
get to anything else, I do want to say big,
big stuff coming up in uh in my life. It's
Turkey season. I told you last week about the turkey
tour we're doing with the First Light a little bit
more detail. We're doing a four state turkey tour. I'm
gonna tell you what the states are. Please don't try
to come find me. I'm trying to avoid you. Um
so if you want to come home with me, please email.

(03:46):
Don't just try to find me in the woods. We
are doing Montana and then South Dakota and then Wyoming
and then Nebraska. Four states two weeks. I will be
out in the field for two straight weeks. Most of
that time I spent sleeping on the ground in a
tent or in a truck or something dirt bag like.
I couldn't be more excited for this, Phil How do you?

(04:07):
Does that sound like something you would want to do?
Two weeks in the dirt chase around turkeys. You gotta
get up at like four every morning, go bet at
like man, I say nine. Uh, it's relentless. But I
got seven turkey tags I could possibly fill within those
fourteen days. I mean, I'm excited for you. Ben Um,
I've never been happier for you. I think you're you're
gonna have a great time. What what about when I

(04:31):
had my child, like a year ago. Where do you
have you're happier now than then? Well, I'm just trying
to gauge your happiness, and to be honest, like you
seem way more stoked about this turky, this Turkey tour
than than having a child. So I'm just feeding off
of your energy here. Okay, don't blame it on me,
But I was just thinking, because we have we haven't

(04:52):
really got into like the actual logistics of the hunt
we're gonna do the first week of May. People stop
asking when Phil's first son is. By the way, it's
the first week in I've been saying it for months.
First week I may, Um, that's when it's happening. But
but would you would you go out for with me
for like a week and sleep in tents and chase
turkeys or would you do you think you would you
eventually grow tired of such exercise. I could probably last

(05:17):
last one week, okay, one week, not not much longer.
I don't think that's that's nothing against you. I don't
know if I could last longer than a week with
with anybody except for like my my wife. Uh, Okay,
I'm just I'm just trying to. I'm just trying to
secretly gauge where you're at here, how many how many
nights I can make you sleep outside to find a turkey? Yeah,

(05:39):
I can tell, Which is why, which is why I'm
being kg. I'm trying to I'm not trying to open
the door for anything. So okay, you don't want me
to be like, hey man, I got a plan. Uh,
that's fine, That's all fine and that. So hopefully you
guys can all follow along what I'm doing many of
the three or one on Instagram, I'll be posting all
kinds of stuff there. But we are doing a bit

(05:59):
of a tell than for the National Wild Turkey Federation.
We've talked about ways to raise money for them, and
really they're their primary source of funding is through memberships,
and so we're gonna be working with first Light, uh
to promote over those two weeks that were gone, to
promote the fact that we're out there, and then pushing
people to a page on the First Light website where

(06:20):
you can sign up for your NBTF membership or renew
it and you'll have a chance at a bunch of
awesome prizes cool gifts if you take part and sign
up for membership on that portal through first Light. So
if you want to get more details, this will be
coming out, you know, uh, next week when I'm already
on the road. I'm already doing this. So when you're
listening to this, you'll be able to go to first

(06:40):
Light social media account, You'll be able to first light
dot com. Keep checking there, and this will debut at
some point when around in the field, and it'll go
for two weeks, so they'll probably some delay in terms
of us making the content and get into the air waves.
But um, we'll be checking in next week from Turkey
Camp with the likes of Kevin Harland or probably for
Van Fawsen, Jason Tara Water from n WTF. We've got

(07:02):
a bunch of wildlife biologists from the areas that will
be hunting, that will be filling us in on the
specific projects from those states. So I'm excited to go
Turkey out but also excited to shed some light on
the important projects at least in the West. For n
WTF gets you to meet some of their folks and
hopefully raise some money for them and get some memberships

(07:23):
in the door because as we mentioned, uh, they'll be
losing some of those this year without really the gatherings
and the banquets and the things that they would normally do.
So hopefully we can help them. And then I'll be returning,
and all my focus when I return will be on Phil.
I already wrote that in my journal. Don't forget about Phil,
and I'm gonna stick to Okay, Phil, We're good. Yeah,

(07:44):
thanks Man means a lot, no, no, no problem, no problem.
All right. Now we gotta bring in Nury Nuri. Can
you hear me? Are you there? I'm here? All right? Um,
so we got a lot. There's a lot of things
I want to ask you. But first, um, how is
it that you came to to be involved in in
our one, our California chapter, but to just like what

(08:07):
was as I asked when we had Luke from Nebraska
last time, what what is the motivation to do what
you're doing right now in the California chapter of our
podcast Cult Thing? Sure? Well, first off, thanks for letting
me come on and represent what we're doing and talk
about it. H And if I talk in ramble too much.
Just tell me to shut up, because I'm very excited

(08:29):
about it, and I think I represent the excitement and
enthusiasm amongst all the chapter leaders. Um, it's pretty cool
and exciting what we're doing. So for myself, list be calm.
You're on a podcast. You can talk for hours and
I don't think anybody minds. All right, go. So to
answer your question, I'm a new hunter. I at this
stage of my life. I've been learning, listening to podcasts, reading,

(08:53):
getting accommated to this entire culture. Um. I come from
a completely a background where I am not prepared to
go out and hunt. Um. So this is something that
I've been building towards and I really want to learn
how to hunt personally. And I've been listening to your
podcast for a long time. And when this opportunity or
this whole initiative started to take some uh you know,

(09:15):
started to take off in your grassroots way, I just
thought I should raise my hand because I want to
one participate in what's going on with with connecting mentors
and men and mentees. But I also felt that just
building a community was really important. It's something that I
personally don't have. Um, I don't have many friends or

(09:36):
any really that hunt. And I thought if we can
create a community that that would be valuable to everybody.
And if we create that community, what could that become
in terms of beyond just teaching people how to hunt?
But what can we do to educate other people who
may not appreciate hunters as much? And how do we
get them to appreciate what I've learned along this journey.
And that's really my personal motivation of wanting to do this,

(09:59):
because I want to share what I've learned with everyone else,
whether or not they want to hunt, hunt or just
understand it. I want to educate as many people as possible. Yeah,
I mean it sounds a lot, a lot like where
I came from when I started this podcast. You know,
it's like you, you want to share what you've learned.
You understand that there are so many perspectives coming in
to the hunting space and within and without of course,

(10:20):
um and it's been great. I mean, what do you, guys,
what you have done in such a short time number
from raising your hand on, I will commend you as
being probably you know, the most thoughtful and leadership oriented
one of our chapter leaders, and so uh kudos to that.
It's been fun to see you one, UM, come together
with a bunch of people from across this country that

(10:41):
have amazingly different backgrounds, you know, to see you guys
interacting in the way that we have thus far has
been uh is I would there's no other word than
than joyous for me to see UM as kind of
the realization of some things I've had in my mind
for a long time. So first, thank you for that, UM,
And I want to get an update on on how

(11:02):
it's going in on your chapter page on Facebook. But
then just you know, I know you're prepared to update
us on on everything that's going on, but let's start
with California. Sure, UM, And by the way, I appreciate
your comments around you know, just my voice and what's
been going on. I actually want to say one thing
before get started around that, because that's probably the biggest
takeaway what you've been trying to do in this mission

(11:25):
of educating people, articulating what is it that you find
valuable and these ethics that you believe in and these
more you know, these values that you believe in. That
for me has been the excitement of everybody involved wanting
to share that and then also accepting someone like me
is incredibly powerful. The fact that we this is a

(11:47):
These are viewpoints that unite all of us, despite our
backgrounds and diverse you know, political perspectives, cultural perspectives. We've
all come into this and it's almost like this, uh,
the community of people that immediate have a bond and
love each other. And I think that's what you're reflecting,
is that excitement that everyone has felt. So I just
want to say thank you for giving us the opportunity

(12:08):
because it's been empowering to all of us to see
what we can do. And I think that that's building
a lot of momentum around this whole initiative. Yeah, I've
said that a few times, you guys, We've don't We've
we've gathered like love you guys, And I'm like, I
kind of mean that, man, but just in a in
a way that I don't know you, but conceptually I
love you guys, um and and I think that's it's
it's because of what you just said. And one thing

(12:29):
that I would reflect on from from that is when
when people can come together around complex issues that are
hard to figure out, it is generally the antithesis of
what we see in our culture right now. People are
being divided by complex issues. We're chopping those issues up
and using them to to cudgel each other, um, and
to divide and when we can all kind of be

(12:50):
able like, yeah, we appreciate these complex ideas. We may
not agree, but boy, let's go let's see what we
can figure out. You know that to me is is
is this uh beautiful thing as we can get to
so point to be made completely agree. And I think
to that point, as we as we give you the
update around what's going on nationally with our our regional chapters,
I think that another key point is we have let

(13:12):
me look at my numbers here. I took some notes here,
thirty five active regional chapters, thirty six including Nevada. This
includes Australia, Canada, a military chapter, and you know, a
couple of regions that have been multi states combined. Um.
I think one of the incredible things of that enrollment,
just in such a short period of time, it does

(13:33):
speak to the fact that hunters and people who are
interested in this are everywhere and it's not a political,
you know issue, it's not a partisan issue. People who
have the values and the interests in the ethics that
we're talking about are everywhere. And again, I think that
speaks to the fact of what this can become in
terms of a uniting issue and overcoming some of the
division that we see in our society day. I mean personally,

(13:55):
that's part of what has motivated me to join this
because I want to share that just like you said, yeah,
that's great man. Um, how many totals? Did you get?
The number of total people we have in all those
in those thirty six So let me give you the total.
So are totals right now as of uh, let's see yesterday,
So yeah, yesterday afternoon we have Um, I'm sorry, let

(14:19):
me get the numbers. A little over total members across
the states. So again, that's thirty five chapters that are
active with sites today. The top ten regional chapters have
account for about seventy one of total membership. That's seven
regions that have over one hundred members apiece. A number
of regions have members and a number of other remaining

(14:42):
regions have you know, a variety depending on just when
they got started and how active they've been to date. UM.
With regards to the top ten States. California is leading
the way with six hundred and fifty. I think it's
actually six hundred sixty as of this morning. UM. That's
followed by Arizona and our admin leader, Markdale and they

(15:03):
have two hundred. Montana admin leader Lewis Johnson with one.
Two in Colorado led by ryan' septa and Riley Nelson
was on and I'll just finish the other top two
with over a hundred. Washington State led by Chris Stalker
has a hundred and fourteen. Australia led by Zach Slattery

(15:24):
has a hundred and thirteen. And Zach is amazing guy.
I mean, I think it's awesome. I think we've named
him the three Eyed Raven or the Thunder from down Under,
depending on which nickname you want to pick. I don't.
I'm not. I'm not gonna go Thunder from down Under.
That's been taken. I just say it's not fair, Zach
that you have an entire continent. I just don't you know,

(15:48):
come on, you should have thousands by now. But now
I will say this this as a as a little
interstitial to your to your numbers run down, Phil, you
have been ound on Facebook, so your your account has
been discovered. And I didn't make it very difficult to
find me. Here's here's my name, and here's what my

(16:11):
profile picture is. And I have gotten hundreds of friend requests.
I haven't approved a single one of them. Yeah, you
have been outed, av Rich shout out to a by risk.
He was the first one to out you. Uh, it's
your your account, filthy e with that beautiful photo of
the mountains at the end of the road. I think
I googled mountain. So you've been outed. Your your your

(16:36):
burner account is now public. Uh, even though you said
it in public last last week, but they found you,
and you're now you're gonna have to do something. Join
one of the chapters. Uh, and maybe all the chapters.
You're gonna have to do something. It's time to step up.
Nurry's over here. He's running a biotech company in his
free time, you know. And uh, what have you got

(16:57):
going on? Nothing? You're just editing podcasts? Point Yeah, get
it together. Okay, we'd like to see some performance out
of you. Phil. Are you going to join the Montana Yeah,
we're not gonna let We're not letting you into the
leader page because you've not yet earned that you've got
to go out there and get You've got to go
out there and get and you know, get involved on
the state and regional level. Please, how you guys keep talking,

(17:19):
I'll do it live on the podcast. I will join
the Montana chapter. Oh my gosh, we've done it. We
finally got Phil his hunter safety course took six months
and only took him two weeks to join a chapter
of the Hunting Collective. Welcome Philly, I've done it. Soon

(17:40):
you'll be a new hunter, and then all will have
been solved, all the world's new hunt and hunter problems
will have been solved. Um Ner, You've got a bunch
of you've been posting, and I've been reading them all,
a bunch of really cool stories, not only from your
page and your chapter in California, but from across uh M,
across the country. But I would I would love for

(18:02):
you to go into a couple of stories that you've
had well of new hunters, and we had one particularly
disabled hunter who's just out there kicking ass. Like, give
us a few few folks you'd like to highlight from
from across that two thousand person number. Absolutely, And I
gotta say before I do that, sorry, I forgot. I
wanted to call out my co co leader in California,

(18:25):
Jordan Rigsby. So Jordan and I tag team and we
leave that chapter the way that I would describe that
as Jordan is the QYB of this effort, and I'm
a loud cheerleader on the bench that's looking to get
in the game. So I do write a lot and
I make a lot of noise, but I wanted to
acknowledge Jordan's and everything that he's done to really help
recruit the numbers in California. And I also want to

(18:47):
give a shout out to his his friend Brad Gillipsby Gillespie,
who's part of our our chapter and the Gillespie fan
our clan, sorry of Alan, Brittany and Brad have each
recruited hundreds of members. So I just wanted to give
a shout out to some key people who have been
really influential and just getting this off the ground, especially

(19:08):
Jordan's my my co chapter leader, and and you guys
didn't know each other before this, right, No, we we met.
I didn't know a single person involved in this until
this started. And like I said, we've had so many
you know, earlier. We have had many happy hours together
and it feels like I've got new friends in every

(19:28):
state and friends that are willing to show me out
to hunt, and you know, I just want to spend
time together. So it's pretty cool, I just said selfishly.
Now I have a place to hunt in all most
most of the states in the nation, and so you know,
you gotta get something out of a cult. So I'll
provide the cool. Uh. Tell us about some cool people. Man,
all right, so let's tart. I mean, just a couple

(19:50):
of really great initiatives that have been going on in successes.
So I want to first give a shout out to
all the other regions who I've been putting together activities
and making connections. So, you know, within California, I'll go
into a couple of of of really cool examples of successes.
But I also want to give a shout out to

(20:11):
all the other states that have been leading things like
clean up days UH, inaugural meet and greets UH. Aaron Shawn,
Oklahoma had a crawfish boil to get everyone together. Many
states have organized archery you know, UM sessions together UM,
and a number of states have also started to connect
mentors with mentees, either through the admins helping out or

(20:33):
just natural connections that have been made. So I want
to call out those states like Washington, Colorado, North Dakota,
Blue Ridge, our own Eric Hall. A lot of good
mentorship going on, even in the early days of this program.
That's awesome, man. I I uh, if I could be like,
if you guys are having gets, you just try to
zoom me in. I'd like to at least like pop

(20:54):
into one or two of them if I can. My
wife might get mad eventually, but I'd love to. I
love to virtually crawfish boil. It's almost like, uh, well, yeah,
I think that would be great if we could do that.
And also you may regret asking for them because remember
invites you're gonna be getting. I think we'll be uh

(21:14):
maybe too much to handle. Phil. Phil will take any
trickle down that I If I can't get there, Phil,
can Phil can be there, right Phil? I mean if
I get to eat some crawfish, then hell yeah. Yeah.
We gotta see what our travel budget is for Phil.
But we we could probably just fly filled pretty much
every event and they'll come. They can only be there
for ten minutes because he's gonna be really busy. But

(21:37):
ten minutes of Phil is a good is good? Cal.
This reminds me of something Cal brings up. This is
a sneak peek for next week's Meet Eater podcast. They
were talking about how this cow sometimes gets a lot
of speaking engagements when it's stuff that Steve can't do.
They're like, oh, we'll send Cal. Uh, that'll be like me.
I'll be there. I'll be the cow of this podcast.
Ben Ben can't show up, We'll just send, We'll send. Yeah. Yeah,

(21:59):
And we already did you already tried to grow a mustache,
and uh, I'd like to see you do it again.
Can you start growing a mustache? Can you start start
growing one now and then shave it off when you
kill a turkey? No, I grew I grew one mustache
for you already been that was. That's all all you're
gonna get from me. I'm so skimpy. I miss you.
That was a good That was a good couple of months.

(22:21):
And that's back when we saw each other almost every
day and I could really track the progress of skimpy.
And you want to go, you gotta see my mustache earlier.
That's uh, full full on right here. Well, I mean
we we uh you know what I should. I gotta

(22:41):
I gotta promote the Burgeraese podcast. That's just all reminds
me of that. But I'm gonna read you guys a
really good a Bargrease podcast with Clay Nucombe review in
a second. But we gotta get you, gotta tell us
about I think we probably have time for one story
from you. All right, here we go, here we go.
So let me just give a couple of highlights from
our group. You mentioned a disabled hunter in our group,

(23:02):
so I want to call out Eric Baker. So Eric
is an inspiration to all. He's the ultimate no barrier
is to a great story. Uh just briefly or it's
a lifelong passionate outdoorsman. He's now disabled to various conditions
that have that have afflicted him. He's wheelchair bound. But
Eric has been one of the most inspirational and generous

(23:23):
mentors on our site. He's offered his time, education and
tips on the side and in person to various people.
He's already established a mentee education day this coming Saturday
with a young new mentor in the area, and he's
shown everybody what's possible. So he has he's wheelchair bound,
and in the three weeks that we've had this site up,

(23:44):
he's already posted a successful hunt for pheasant turkey and uh,
you know other accomplishments that he's he's had mentoring his grandkids. UM,
and he's just an incredible inspiration to anybody who thinks
that there's any reason that you can't get into the
woods and learn how to hunt. Eric is I think

(24:04):
someone that inspires all of us to say, you know,
there's no barrier too great and there's nothing that should
stop you from enjoying time outside. UM. Eric also has
you know, I think I want to raise an issue
related to his his situation, which is I don't think
we talked about disability and hunting. At least that's not
something that I've heard of or have you know, put

(24:27):
on my radar screen. And Eric, you know, I think
is somebody who is really trying to make that an
issue that is more um, that's something that that people
are more aware of. And he has a go fund
me account to try to raise money for his own
There are four by four altering adaptability vehicles for folks

(24:47):
who are disabled to help them get around outside in
the outdoors. And so this is basically like a four
by four type of vehicle that can help disabled people.
And he has a good fund me account. So I
encouraged for people who want to support this kind of
this community to you know, to support people like Eric,
both in terms of you know, anything that you can

(25:08):
do on you know, his his go fund me to
to raise money for this altering vehicle, but also I
think that we should do that because he represents I think,
the best of mentorship and what we want to get
out of this community. Um, and I would like to
raise a artist around disability because it's not something that
that our California Wildlife Department has a program around, and
it's something that Eric and others I think are trying

(25:29):
to make, you know, in an effort to to get
some attention around. Yeah, that's um extremely important and I
will pledge right now. I'll get some information from me,
maybe a picture whatever Eric wants to share, and get
that link and I'll post that up on my social
media so people can can go and find that go
fund me page and just go find Eric and uh yeah,

(25:50):
imagine that people, Um, anyone would like a place to
go or there's a bunch of people who appreciate what
they do and appreciate their drive for life and can
can them up as a role model. So if if
what we're up to, Mark can provide that for anybody,
especially Eric m. We look to multiply that idea and
that feeling as much as we can in the coming months, years,

(26:10):
however long this goes, absolutely and I appreciate that. I
really do appreciate that. One thing I will say is
that now I lost my train of thought. You have
to cut this out, Phil, or maybe just leave it in.
You're not even listening, are you. I'm petting a cat,
but I'm listening. What do you? Are you petting Kevin?
Or meat loaf? I bet it's a meat loaf. That's Kevin,

(26:31):
Kevin the son of a bitch. All right, I know,
I ramble a lot. I'm gonna I'm gonna give you
one more case example. Yeah, I go. We had a
successful mentorship hid this past weekend. So A, a relatively
new hunter, Jen lenn lives in the Bay Area, joined
the chapter about a week ago. Um immediately asked for

(26:54):
mentorship help because she's a somewhat experienced duck hunter but
once you know good out there and go after other game.
I saw people respond to her and say that, you know,
they were going to private message or DM her. She
also not completely organized by our site, but she had
a mentor who has helped her in the past, a
woman by the name of Belinda Dods. And both of

(27:17):
these two have an incredible story. So one well, Linda
is a professional guide. Uh, this is a career change
for her. So she got into hunting after a life
in corporate America and over the last four years has
established herself as a guide and one of her key
initiatives is really taking a new hunter and mentoring them
for free, not with guided guided services. In the past

(27:37):
she's helped with other game and they were able to
go out and get into the Turkey Woods and get
Jen her first caller of this past weekend UM and
Jen has become an incredibly active member both in terms
of representing what you know, not being afraid as a
mentee to go ask for help on our board, but
also just an incredible encouraging voy is to other people

(28:01):
that are looking for that kind of support. And I
would say that Melinda also represents I think the best
of the you know, the professional guided community because we
have a number of guides like I'll call out Bryson
Welsh and Billy Rourke. These are guides who have a
full time job but have offered time education and you know,

(28:22):
their services in non paid you know, capacities as a
mentor as well. And these are the kind of folks
that are showing up on our board and encouraging all
of us, like myself in other words, that haven't hunted,
uh you know, how to get started, giving us encouragement,
giving us advice, and also getting out in the field
and taking people out there. So I just wanted to
highlight gen and Milinda because it's pretty kick ass that

(28:45):
these girls have gone out there. They've they've they've established
this relationship between a mentor and mentee and are really
trying to take that and bring that to the rest
of the community, which is really the kind of culture
and the uh you know, the nature of the dialogue
that's been going on our site. So that's you know,
I think if we can build on that kind of experience,
that's the kind of thing that we are you know,

(29:06):
really excited to be able to offer everybody within our group. Yeah,
I mean you know, and that it just pushes this this,
these kind of sources to push all of us like,
how can we how can we do better? Even though
we've gathered on these pages. If you're not if you've
listened to this podcast and you've never emailed or interacted
with me or anyone else, and you don't want to,
you don't have to. But boy, if, if, if ever

(29:27):
there was a chance to go and get involved in
something that can really help you on a personal level,
whether you're mentoring or your need in need of mentoring.
I I've, like I've said before on this show, I
get nothing. There's there's nothing more satisfying than mentoring somebody
and showing them what you what you know and and
and introducing them into your passion. There's nothing better man,
and to see to see you know you Nuri like

(29:49):
and and Jordan's leading a group of people that are
are then forming their own, you know, individual missions within
that is is exactly the point of of what we're
up to. So couldn't be more proud to be a
part of that, Bet, I mean really thank you for
giving us and everybody that's had the benefit of being
part of these communities to connect honestly, I think that

(30:12):
you know, maybe my answer earlier was it could have
been much more simple. The value of this is connection,
the connection of the community and everything that we all
share as values, and that's I think what we want
to spread to the world. Yeah. Awesome man, well well,
very well put, well spoken as always, and I appreciate
having you around. Um, we're gonna do a chapter leader

(30:33):
happy hour here not for long from now hof last
see there as well. UM. But again I can't say
anymore but that I'm proud to be a part of this,
and and thank you to everybody that's joined. And if
you haven't joined, you can go and easily google uh
it'll be th HC. And then the state or region
that you're looking for. And if and of course, as

(30:53):
many of you have done, send me a message if
you can't find it or you're having trouble uh getting
too where you need to be in terms of the
state or region that you're in. UM, happy to drop
a link in your inbox or your d M s
or something. If you're confused or you can't find and
you want to get in there and connect with folks
like Nuri. This is your chance to do it and
now we got to get to fill the return of

(31:17):
doctor Robert C. Jones. Are you ready for this? Yes?
I am, let's do it. I have actually no, wait
a minute, let's do it again. Are you ready for this? Phil?
You're yawning? And it's what do you want me to say? Ben? What?
What reaction would you like me to have? Would like
you to have that tone? Just tell what you just heard? Inspiring?

(31:39):
Nuri's inspiring the world over here, and you're just like
pet and a cat, you know, like, what the hell
is wrong with you? Get you? I can't wait to
get you in the Turkey woods. I'm gonna make you.
I'm gonna you know what the guides used to say.
They would would make people go on a disciplinary hike.
When a client was acting up. They would just take
him for a walk all day and never even actually
look for deer. Um, I'm and I have to take

(32:00):
you in a couple of those kids. And I know
my lane near he's out here doing important inspiring work. Uh.
And I I'm betting you know you couldn't have made
me look worse by saying he's petting a cat, But
I was. I was petting a cat. Well, nery was

(32:23):
that's fine. You look, you look great. Man. Cats don't
pet themselves, well I guess they kind of do, so,
you know, take care of your You're being an animal
rights kind of guy, exactly. Phil the animal rights representative
for the THHD podcast. That's right, thank you, we love you,
Phil Um. When I asked Robert C. Jones, I talked

(32:44):
to him like a week ago, and I said, listen, man,
we've been talking about this idea of the North American
model the wildlife conservation and how to either fuse this
animal rights ideology into it or at least create a
parallel universe where there is a model that that it
lease takes into account animal rights and the way that

(33:04):
they think about wildlife. So I've asked him to do that.
I gave him a couple of days to prepare and
we will see what he can do. Right now, enjoy
dr Robert C. Jones for the third time. Robert, how

(33:24):
are you, sir? Ben O'Brien, it's it's so good to
connect with you once again. Oh man, it is good
to see you. And uh, you're drinking a Seltzer water.
I am going with a white claw because it is Friday,
and uh this is the mood that I'm in. Um,
how are you, sir, how are you? I'm doing well.

(33:45):
I can't complain. Uh, you know, it's I mean, aside
from that the fact that there's a global pandemic at
least it's looking like it's coming to an end. But
I'll do than that. It's the middle of the semester
of my students are getting ancy for May to come,
so I think I'm getting ancy from May to come.
So yeah, same here, same here. I think in in

(34:08):
in our part of the world, every time the sun shines,
people just run outside. They don't know what they're doing
out there, but they're out there. A lot of people, yeah,
a lot of people. A lot more hunters out there,
a lot more hikers and bikers and people that are
wanted to spend time outside, which I enjoy. All the
way around, people are going stir crazy. So I get
I get it. Damn I get it. Damn right, damn right. Well,

(34:30):
I told you there's a lot of things we could
talk about. But I told you that, Uh we've had
since we've last talked to you. I think we talked
you what over the summer there in the middle of
the lockdown or at some point. Yeah, it was the
last summer. Yeah. Yeah. Since then, we've had some other
conversations with animal rights activists, particularly fella named Paul the Sheer,

(34:51):
who uh is the head of this thing called Anonymous
for the voiceless animal rights activists, And it was it
was a contentious conversation, but also at the end, I
think we both appreciated each other much much more than
we did than we did going in. He came into
it quite combative, um, but at the end we were

(35:12):
we both pretty much felt pretty good about each other. Um.
We didn't walk away hand in hand, but we gained
some respect there, which I was happy about. But since
since we got into that idea with him, we got
essentially I need that conversation with him, I should say.
There's just been an idea float around in my head.
And I mentioned on the podcast a bunch that we

(35:32):
have this North American model of wildlife conservation. I talked
about it all the time because it's a model, so
we can refer to it specifically, right. It's it's something
that we've explicitly said that manages the way wildlife functions
within the current system of game laws and the current
system of of everything really from um economics to ecology.

(35:53):
So I wanted to just I've been saying, I wonder
if we can either do one or two things, achieve
one or two things. One, take animal ethics and animal
rights and bake it into the current model and somehow
make that work as an expression of your You know,
what you and I have been doing for almost a
couple of years now is trying to get take one
step closer to each other after we've we kind of

(36:15):
started far away and doing that. And then also, is
there in your mind either a parallel system that could
work with animal rights or something that you could envision
creating that could you know, either replace or somehow um
CO exists with our current model. Uh. And so yeah,

(36:36):
that's where that hasn't that It's been a it's been
a long exploration of years and years trying to get
to a point where like, what can we do tangibly
to discuss this in real ways? And so I wondered
if if you would take part in that. I don't
have any answers myself, but I figured if there's anybody,
I was going to spend an hour trying to figure
it out. What it would be you. Well, thanks man,
I appreciate that. Now, when you said you want to

(36:57):
you want to talk about real, real world things we
can do. I think it may have slipped your mind
that I'm a philosopher by trade, so I'm an amateur philosopher.
So the philosophers are naturally out of the real world,
and so everything's at the level of theory. So no,
but you know, as you know, I consider myself an

(37:20):
activist as well. Um, absolutely, I think. Uh. Well, one
thing I was wondering, and you could help me too,
is if you can give me what you see as
a kind of brief summary of what the us um
kind of management, an overview of what you think the

(37:42):
maintenance are the policies are sure that essentral to ye
and I think, Um, and we've had the you know
kind of it's a long history of the North American model,
but it was it was really codified by a fellow
named Dr Valarious Geist who we had on the show
and he's explained this entire history and then and brought

(38:04):
to bear by Shane Mahoney who's been on the show
many many times and it's coming on with us next week. Um.
He brought it to the masses. He's an incredible order.
And so really what those guys did was take a
bunch of ideas that started at the turn of the
century and really what we could call like a revolution
um of environmentalism mixed with you know, conservation that happened

(38:27):
at the turn of the century with Teddy Roosevelt, Um,
Giveford pin Show, every John Muir, you know, and all
kind of turned at at the turn of the century.
So there's a lot of legislation that happened in those
eighty years. It just so happened that Dr Vlarious guy
said we have a model. He was once challenged that
there was no model for wildlife conservation in America, and

(38:49):
he said, we have a model, And by god, he
went and sat down and wrote the thing. And here
we are. They actually just put a book out last
year called The North American Mile of Conservation is on
my shelf. I'm looking at it, um, and so I
guess that's this. This model was away um to take
the things that began in the eighteen sixties where sportsman's
and advocates for for conservation organized and they're just saying,

(39:12):
we want to preserve wildlife or preserve wilderness areas we
want to bring back from the brink many of these
wildlife populations that us humans real funked up real bad
over the prior since we landed and landed here. And
so that's I guess that's the genesis of where this
came from. And then again somebody had to actually put
it into words at some point UM. And this goes

(39:34):
all the way back to the boon A Crockett. So
the thing has I should probably pull it up side
and get them wrong. The thing has seven tenants, and
and those seven tenants are are meant to really elaborate
on and then kind of build a construct around how
we manage manage wildlife, how we value wildlife, the purposes

(39:55):
for which we would kill an animal, and then how
our system is set up to allow science too to
be a tool to discharge our wildlife policy. And again
one of the main tenants is that wildlife is held
in public trust right by the states. UM. No one
owns it. If there's a deer on your on your land,
you don't own that dear. That dear is is a

(40:17):
public trust and it is managed in kind by the states. UM.
Given wildlife biology and policy UM is that pretty good
for a foundational piece of the puzzle. Oh I lost you.
I'm looking at sorry I got Yeah, that's good. Thanks,

(40:39):
And I'm looking at the core tenants. I was looking
at them, yeah, as you spoke with them and so yeah,
so this I just pulled it up myself. So there's
seven of them. I always always get them out of
order or miss them. But wildlife is a public trust,
which I just which I basically just described, and that
has its origins in um, really English common law. Know

(41:00):
that that really said wild life was owned by the
ruling class, the aristocracy, UM, which which in some cases,
by by nature privatized said wildlife. UM. And now we're
going to say that, you know, wildlife is held in
trust for the public, and it's going to be managed
and within that trust by the state and federal governments, UM,

(41:23):
who we pay with our tax dollars and and with
our license fees and everything else. UM. And so that
that's I would say, that's the most important one for
this model, because what it really does is it grounds
the other ones. UM. And if anybody wants to go back,
go back. We we did with Shane Mahoney a full
rundown of all seven of these, and he gave He
gave them in like packages like this, this is a package,

(41:45):
and here's a package, and here's one. They all kind
of interplay, but they they make sense in this way. Um,
so you want to go you want to go one
by one or or go all all the way through? Well,
I mean we can go one by one. I think
what I what comes to mind for me is to
just kind of step back and think about maybe and

(42:08):
a little bit of a summary or an overview of
the way that wildlife management is conceptualized in like the
animal rights community, maybe you know, people who aren't familiar
with it. I think the first thing that comes to
mind for me, as you know, when I teach environmental ethics,

(42:29):
which I do teach, the first thing I want to
point out, and again, you know, I'm a philosopher, so
we think we kind of like try to do these
conceptual analyzes and stuff. The first thing to recognize is
the notion of wilderness. Right there. Then the concept of
wilderness that we and say, let's say we in the

(42:51):
Western let's say we in the United States have it's
a certain way. You could say it's a it's a construct,
but it's a way of think being about the world
that it's not universal, right, I mean, um, the distinction
if a lot of indigenous cultures indigenous to the United States,
at least through the histories that we understand, the notion

(43:14):
that there's like a wilderness out there is is a
weird idea, right. So, so first of all, and of
course this comes from Europe and stuff, but so so
the first thing I just want to lay on the
table is that for many environmental ethicists, the first recognition
is that the very concept that wilderness is is a construct.

(43:37):
So so it's not like we have humans and then
we have the separation, and that's and that divide between
humans and nature and wilderness that lies at a at
the heart of a lot of the differences between animal
rights people and say, um, you know, conservationists. So so
now I'm not here to have a debate about whether

(44:00):
or not wilderness is a construct. It's just I think
it's an interesting thing because when I first years ago,
when I first read about it, it certainly struck me
as weird, like, oh yeah, I just assumed that there's
this thing out there and it's the wilderness, and it's
separate from me Um. And the other thing that's interesting
too is if, and I'm sure you know, the history

(44:21):
of the notion or the history of the concept of wilderness,
at least in West, in the West in Europe, it's
gone through different phases, right, I mean the model that
we have today, which is sometimes referred to as kind
of the Romantic model, which is that you know, this
kind of thorow, this kind of this model of the

(44:42):
innocence and purity of the wilderness, and Ralph Waldo Emerson
and going back to Rousseau in philosophy, that there's something
good about nature, is something pure uncorrupted about nature. That's
a recent phenomenon in the West as well, right, I mean,
if you go back to the original say, say, let's
just say the like the Mayflower Land in sixteen twenty,

(45:05):
that view of wilderness was a kind of like hostile,
unholy place filled with you know, uh, unholy uncivilized people.
So and then you have different models as as as
they they evolve over the years. But what I'm just
trying to point out is that both the notion of

(45:26):
wilderness and the model that we have a wilderness as
this kind of pristine, pure thing to preserve or to conserve.
These are these are historical phenomena. These aren't They're not
universally found all over the world by you know, all
different cultures. So I think it's important for us first
recognize that we're operating under a construction of the way

(45:50):
that we sort of carve out wilderness in our culture,
and you know, for good or for bad. I'm not
even making a judgment. I'm I'm merely trying to make
the point that as as is, whenever we're studying any topic,
it's a good idea to see it in perspective and say, Okay,
I see what we're talking about. You know, there's the
animals are out there, and the trees are out there,

(46:12):
and and that's and it's pristine and all of that
are all of those ways are ways that we have adopted,
at least in the West. Um. Now, I might be
saying something totally obvious to everyone who's listening, and if so,
I apologize, But but I think that the history on
this is interesting to me. Um. Yeah, yeah, I think

(46:35):
I'm like you, I really like to think of things
in the theoretical and I think it's it gets us
because there are and we can talk about them in
a little bit, but there are like Forest Service federal
government wilderness classifications, like we're going to treat this chunka
ground differently than this chunker. But that's not what you're
talking about here. We're talking about this idea of how

(46:57):
we see these quote unquote wild play aces, you know,
like what do we what's the value system around them,
and and what do we do? What do we do
in them? Um? Because there's a lot of people in
the hunting space that have have kind of evolved through
years to really want to protect wilderness, to not want
motorized vehicles there, to not want motorized boats there, to

(47:18):
want to keep these places um as pristine as they can.
And there's a separate group within hunting that sees that
as um like elitist that sees that as well, you know,
if I if I can, why can't I bring my
a TV? You're gonna tell me to stay You're gonna
tell me to stay out and you can stay in.
Isn't that the same kind of aristocracy that we built,

(47:40):
just a cultural aristocracy and not a you know, and
not an actual class based aristocracy, Or maybe it is
that even that so there's you know, we probably speak
in different languages here, but but I think at its core,
we even in the hunting space, have this idea of
what is wilderness, how do we protect it? And what
do we do? And and can we can we manage

(48:02):
to have this much wilderness in a world where we
just consume, consume, consume, consume um, not only not only
the animals, but the environment which they were. The obvious
answer to that question is no, we can't. But but
but one, so one one other thing that comes to
mind for me, And you mentioned you know, uh, early

(48:22):
twentieth century, you know, Pin Show and mirror, and I
think there's an interesting distinction that you spoke in passing
of conservation and then you spoke about preservation and you know, historically,
if you think about Pin Show versus John Muir, those

(48:43):
are two different ways to think about the environment. And
it seems to me that and again, please correct me
if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that the
issues of wildlife management assume a conservationist kind of model.
In other words, the model that there exists this thing
out there and it's nature, and it's natural and it's good,

(49:07):
and we'll use science to manage it. And but but
ultimately the public lands and the public resources are there
to serve us. There there there, in a sense, a
kind of resource to be managed, and that is classic
pin show. And on the other hand, someone like John Muir,
who was associated with a kind of preservationist view, is

(49:29):
that our job is just to preserve and let this
thing be as beautiful as it is. It's it's a
kind of reverence, you know, a kind of you can
see it as as the role that humans play is
too is to experience transcendence. But it's not for us.
It's not a resource. Right. So I think that's important

(49:50):
when thinking about the animal rights thing that we're talking
about when you mentioned the beginning, and that is the
animal rights view is much more of a preservationist view
in the sense that kind of says animals these sentient,
you know, complex socially really complex beings. Um, they're not

(50:12):
ours to manage because they're not resources. There beings. Right now, now,
you might step back and go like, well, humans are resourced.
I mean, at my job, there's a thing called human resources,
right and so but of course that that sort of
modifying of humans is something that you know, I'm sure

(50:35):
you would agree like we you and I are on
You and I. A lot of places where you and
I overlap are in looking at sort of modernity as
encroaching on what's good, right. I mean, you and I,
as you've mentioned before in our conversations, we may have
we may have gone and stepped in different directions, but

(50:56):
we both we both have these kinds of values that
we share. And you know, the whole idea that humans
are commodities or humans or resources that takes us away
from important values. And so I think what I'm getting
at is the sort of preservationist a model dovetails nicely
with the animal rights model in that the animal rights

(51:19):
people are going to say, look, the whole idea that
nature is to be managed as as as something for
the good of human beings, that's just totally anthropocentric. It's
totally it's it's it's a wrongheaded, misguided way to think
about wilderness and nature. And what we're supposed to be

(51:41):
doing is, at least on the animal rights front, what
what we're supposed to be doing is we're supposed to
be respecting animals as autonomous, sentient beings and allowing them
to live the lives that and and and exist in
the kinds of ecosystems that they exist in. And so
perhaps what we can do is is is to facilitate

(52:04):
animals having as much autonomy and this kind of stuff
as possible, but not to interfere with it. So so
I think at the bottom line, when we think about
wildlife management, I think it's important to see that there's
there is a radical departure from the idea of wild
the very concept of wildlife management. To a lot of

(52:26):
animal rights people, what they want to say is it's
just it's just the wrong way to even look at
the situation. You're you're going into it, you're frontloading it
by saying there's this, there are these animals and they
need to be managed, and that that's where. So even
before we jump into you know, well, is there a
way to integrate an animal rights view into a progressive

(52:49):
or or a flourishing wildlife management view, it's important to
to stake out the distinctions and say um, and say, uh,
the very view that the grounds wildlife management is needs
to be questioned, at least from the animal rights perspective. Yeah. No,

(53:10):
I think what you just outlined there was is really
at the core of what has conflicted me over the
years with with my own hunting. You know, in the
commodity like I commodity, I look at animals as commodities sometimes,
you know, I say, I was, we talked about this
show last week, that if I can kill ten turkeys,
then I can feed my family white meat from my

(53:31):
own hand for the most in the entire year. Right,
So I look at it as like ten to your point,
I don't leave like I'm gonna go kill ten sentient beings.
I look at it as I look at it as
I can go get ten turkeys. But I'm comfortable with one.
The value system that has created inside of me, right,

(53:51):
I don't feel in the people around me, don't feel
as if um and you and I were talking before
the show a little bit about our our little chaps
in the chapter leaders, and you've always asked me. You said, like,
are you like a unicorn? I think you're thoughtful? Are
you like the only one? Are these ideas like kind

(54:12):
of unique to you? Um And I guess it's starting
to become clearer that not only are they not unique
to me, I think they're compelling to people that never
heard them before. And I think what you just said
is also compelling to people that have never heard them before.
But to take a few steps back, I've I've always
looked at somebody asked me, like, what is hunting from
a conservation level? How do those two things go together?

(54:34):
Because there is a phrase in hunting that says hunting
is conservation. I said, well, that's not right. Hunting is hunting,
and conservations conservation, and and to your point, preservation is preservation.
All those things kind of sitting next to each other.
But they're not all the same thing. Um. Foundationally, they're
all pretty damn different actually. Um. But for me, I

(54:54):
always say, like, hunting is the sustainable use of a
natural resource. Now, me saying that obviously goes against what
you just detailed there, which is that why is an
animal and natural resource for you? You know? Um? And
that's why I would imagine that's the core of the argument,
like if they're not a natural resource, um, what are they?

(55:17):
And how do we cohabitate with them? And how do
we manage those conflicts that come with that cohabitation? Um?
And the other thing that I guess makes me comfortable
with given that statement to that, given that answer to
that question is one I've seen how treating animals as
a natural resource has allowed people to value them in
deeper ways than I ever thought possible. And then the

(55:39):
North American model comes in when it's like, we're not
just doing this haphazardly. We've looked at this, We've given
seven tenants. They all kind of they're not perfect. Boy,
they could always be modernized. Um and and O. Our
our community is trying to do that as we speak,
but they at least allow guardrails for what has been

(56:01):
really a really productive a hundred years for for wildlife
that we say, our game animals. And so I look
at it kind of in those stages, and um, I've
asked myself the question that you just kind of pose there,
which is is the basis of what I do wrong,
like the commoditization the natural resource thought about an animal,

(56:25):
because certainly when I interact with animals, I don't when
I'm in the face of an elk, I don't like, oh,
there goes a natural resource. I see the individual elk,
you know, I see it's I have to learn its behavior.
I have to learn how it interacts with other elk
and where it lives and what it thinks, and so
in that sense, I see it as an individual. But
in the sense of conservation, I have to then pull

(56:47):
back and maybe you can convince me that I'm just
trying to convince myself that that natural resource statement UM
holds up in court. Maybe it doesn't hold up in court.
And I've always wondered that UM as a as just
a function of of challenging my own worldview and challenging
the dogma that I was presented when I stepped into
the hunting space. And that's where I sit right now

(57:09):
after three years of talking about and as usual, Ben,
you're very you're very thoughtful about this stuff, and I
hope you're right that you are sort of emblematic of
the way that hunters think, because that's a you know that.
I mean, look the stereotypes, and you know, the stereotype
of the animal rights person is you know, the throwing
blood on the person wearing a fur coat, and the

(57:31):
stereotype of the hunters shoot everything that moves kind of.
So it's nice to hear, as I say, every time
we have a conversation, it's nice that you're so thoughtful,
and that's representative of maybe the way that hunters are
are are thinking, Um, can I just can I just
say before you I've evolved to hunters. I'm at the
point right now where I think the ideas that we're

(57:53):
talking about are compelling to everybody that gets to listen
to them. You know, I think it's it's some of
these ideas have have brought hunters along that have traditionally
thought different things or were fed different information and are
now being exposed to it. But I think, um, we
just had a guy on the show before you came on.
His name is Nuri Hong, never hunted a day in

(58:13):
his life, lives in California, is a biotech engineer in
his free time, and came onto this podcast, listened to
it as a non hunter, and joined our chapter in California.
Is now our chapter leader, and is is not only
hunting himself, but but leading a community of people that
have been doing it for years and years and years
longer than him, and and in our space, that is

(58:34):
like insane that that happened. You know, he is a
leader of hunters, but he's only a leader because he's
embraced the ideas that we're talking about in their totality
at least at least the exploration. Well, one of the
things that you said kind of jumped out of meat,
and that is and I from from what we spoke about,

(58:54):
what we're speaking about now, but also from our previous conversations,
and that is um. And you can correct me if
I'm wrong, but you you did say that, Um. You
see hunting as as um or management in this conservation
in this way of sustainable has to be sustainable and

(59:16):
it's sustaining natural resources. It's sustainable. Can can you say
that phrase again? Like what what's conservation to sustainable use
of a natural resource? So the idea that we can
if we take some, yeah, we're gonna take some, not
but we're gonna but the overall health of the population
will will be either maintained or forwarded, you know, like

(59:39):
there's more dear today than ever and we can kill
We kill a lot of them as hunters. So this
idea that we can kill some and that's going to
be a benefit to the whole and this and it
also comes down to this idea that of how we
view that activity where we're saying we're gonna use this
natural resource for we're gonna pay into the pot, right,
We're gonna buy a license, we're gonna give an excise tax,

(01:00:00):
or you know, we're all we're going to have a
construct which are polish our model kind of outlines that
allows us to use this natural resource in a sustainable way.
But boy do we have a whole lot of principles
and philosophies that that make that use, um sustainable as
the statement goes to, but also you know, value based
and kind of locked into locked into a process. Yeah,

(01:00:23):
um yeah. So one of the things that I was
thinking when you were talking about that is that, um,
so it seems that where you and another place that
you and I we share values is that the notion
that um nature, I think, wilderness, things that exist out

(01:00:46):
there outside of cities and things like that, but even
within cities and certain areas. But so we we don't
we don't think that the proper attitude is that these
things are are there to be used in any ways
that I so desire. I mean, you and I've talked,

(01:01:06):
we've had conversations about uh consumerism and problems with like consumption. Right,
if you if you don't have the clause of sustainability,
then you're left with these are natural resources for us
to use. So so the sustainability aspect of of your
notion of of conservation is it plays a key role, right,

(01:01:29):
you can't just that's when you and I've talked about
problems we have with you no factory farming. One of
the problems we have is you know, it's destructive to
the environment. It's totally disrespectful too, you know animals, at
least that's my view. So, um, what what? So what
I find interesting? There's a couple of things. One is

(01:01:51):
at at heart, and I might be wrong. I think
seeing nature as a resource, I think that that I
don't want to say it goes against it seems to me.
It puts intention, it's it puts your view in tension
with your own view, which is that I don't want

(01:02:12):
to think I don't. You and I we don't think
of nature as a resource. It's like it's it's it's
almost transcendent. It's almost there's a reverence about it. Right,
and so so, first of all, going back to our
original part of our conversation, it seems like for for you,
I'm seeing there might be some tension where you're like, well,

(01:02:34):
I have to think of it. And you talked about
when you're when you're encountering an individual animal that you're
gonna shoot. It's like, I have to think about this
thing as a resource in the way in the way
that I can, so that I can fulfill my my job.
But but I also had this other thing where I think, no,
that's not a resource. Like if I take a million
of them and put them in a factory farm, you're

(01:02:55):
gonna go They're not resources their animals, right. So that's
one that's that's something I find intentions. And here's the
other thing. Is the other thing is the sustainability part.
As I said, that seems to play a key role.
It's like we can, as you mentioned, like we can
on this view, we can hunt deer as long as

(01:03:18):
we're not removing so much so many deer as to
mess up the ecosystem. Right, So we want to have
a balance, We want to have a kind of healthy stasis.
And and this is the challenge I've I've sort of
raised to you in the in the past, and that is,
if you don't have sustainability, then this model flies out
the window. And what I want to say is, there

(01:03:38):
are seven and a half billion people on the planet.
Your model is not sustainable. It's not. There's no way
in hell you're gonna get seven a half billion people
going out and shooting ten turkey for their family for
it's so so it's sustainable, it's it's maybe it's like
locally sustainable. Maybe it's sustainable in certain pockets of the world. Um.

(01:04:00):
But my point is in the same way when sometimes
when I have are not arguments, but discussions with people
about veganism, they say, well, you can't do veganism every
you know, you're gonna have the Inuit, who they eat blubber,
You're gonna make them eat tofu like. And what I
want to say is, yeah, I agree, that's that's that's
a really difficult that's a challenge. Like I could go

(01:04:20):
to Whole Foods in California and get tofu. But there
are indigenous people who they're hunting is a part of
their lives and it's part of the sustainability. By the
same token, the view that that you're expressing, it's just
not sustainable at a world level. So you and I
are weirdly in this. We both have our own conundrums
that our views lead to that you know, it's it's

(01:04:43):
it's um it's humbling. I think if you know, maybe
hopefully you agree with me. I do very much agree
with that. Yeah, and I think you're the tension you
mentioned there. I'll take that. We'll try to take that
initial point and then we'll go to kind of the
sustainable part. But the tension I think is very well
articulated by you. Because that tension is is. I try

(01:05:03):
to deal with it in two ways, and this might
be the first time I've ever tried to articulate this
in a way. So that's why I love having you on,
because you forced me to articulate ship that I've I've
just never really put a finer point on. Practicality and emotionality.
Is emotionality a word, as probably is? Uh, it's word
to me too. We agree on it's a word. Yeah,

(01:05:25):
if you can agree on it, its word. Um. So
those two aspects of hunting for me have always been
a push pull always. I've always said, I can pick
up this book by Geist and Mahoney and read the
North American Wildlife Conservation, and the pragmatists in me can
see it clearly right. I can see where it came from,

(01:05:48):
why it was created, and then I can look at
the result of it, which is is pretty and arguably
more proliferation of these wildife species that I care about.
But then when I say I air, I've got to
then take a step back and like, what do I
care about? You know, do I care about a single
deer or all the dear? And and I can't just

(01:06:09):
say all the dear. I gotta say both, because I
do care about single I do see the characteristics they
have that I admire. I have an admiration for these
things that's so deep and so value based that I
would be a fool if to reject your notion of
sentience and a full to reject your notion of of
of pure rights when it comes to how autonomy really um.

(01:06:33):
And so that's always been I've tried not to use
the practical notion of conservation as a shield for the
emotional notion of my relationship with the animals. And because
those two things exist in parallel, for me, I understand
the tension that that is between the two things. And
I think a lot of hunters would like to say

(01:06:53):
and have said to be in the past well and
and and I there's a lot of parts on this
where I do agree, where it's like, well, these animal
rights guys, it's all emotion. There's no fact, right, it's
all emotion, there's no fact. They care about the animal,
but they don't care about cohabitation. They care about the animal,
but they don't care about management. Um. And I always
I say, yeah, I agree that a lot of the people.

(01:07:16):
And that's why I love talking to you, because you
don't do this. But a lot of people we talked
to do straight up call on the emotion only and
not the practicality or the philosophy behind it. But those
that can have those conversations all at once, I think
we all kind of have the same confusion, um, because
we all, I mean, the way that we see animals
in nature, as you mentioned, is kind of a construct

(01:07:36):
of of our own humanity. You know, that relationship is
constructed in our own psychology. And so I would admit,
I guess to touch on that first point and recap
all that the practical I see the practicality of of
the North American model, and I appreciate it and I'm
glad it's there because it gives me some kind of

(01:07:58):
like tactile comfort that what's happening that my mind, my
my my critical mind, my objective thoughts, can take it,
break it down, and understand it and feel at some
level comforted by comfort the emotional side of me. It's like, man,
I've had a lot of emotional moments sitting over top

(01:08:19):
of a dead animal, and and what is that really?
You know, am I Is that a natural resource? When
I sit there over this you know, dead elk, and
there's emotions flooding that I probably wouldn't let anyone else see,
you know, Like, is it a natural resource? Then well
fuck no, it's not. Uh. And I've got to understand
those two elements. And so that's why I think that

(01:08:41):
the this idea of of taking the North American model
and seeing if we can you like, either merge it
or or have it be parallel with these two ideologies
is important because it's a way to kind of shut
off this, this this argument that I've fallen into and
have been a part of. That's like one is emotional
and one is facts. I have emotions too, I'm not

(01:09:02):
all facts. Like, I have a lot of emotions when
it comes to wildlife. I spent a lot of time
thinking about it. So it's it's not as it's not
fair for that for that part. So I mean, that's
I guess that's the tension that you so accurately called out.
I mean that it really is there. It exists. I
think it probably exists for a lot of hunters. It
definitely exists for people that come to it as adults,
who we call emergent hunters on this show. It exists

(01:09:25):
for them in spades because they have when you when
you get introduced to killing an animal at the age
of twelve, you don't have the emotional capability to understand
its impact on you. And when that emotional and when
that emotionality gets normalized to your teenage years, you come
out the other end going animals die. That's what I do.
I'm not going to think about why or how or what.
You know, what I feel about this. I've been doing

(01:09:46):
it since I was twelve, you know. It's the same
as anything else. And so we get all these new
hunters that come through the door and they go, I
feel super emotional about this. Can I talk to somebody?
And and twenty years ago hunter would say, no, you
can't talk to me about that, Like we're not talking
about the emotions of it. Get the hell out of here. Um,
and so we've seen I think we've seen a bit
of a change there, But I don't I don't know

(01:10:07):
that there'll ever be an answer to to that tension.
I don't know. I certainly don't have one at this moment. Well, Ben,
I do appreciate your emotional vulnerability on the podcast today. Well,
I told the listeners recently that I go to marriage counseling,
and people like really, I said, yeah, this is what
it is. I voted for Biden. I go to marriage counseling.

(01:10:29):
I'm emotional about animals. I don't know what you want
me to do. Be seriously, I think it's great that
you have you you are. You are honest in that
you you relate how you have an emotional response, and
you know, of course knowing you how I how I
do you know over these few years. That doesn't surprise me, because, um,

(01:10:55):
I almost think if you don't have an emotion like
you describe, I'm not gonna say I'm not gonna go
so far as to say like there's something sociopathic about
I would say there's got to be some kind of suppression.
I mean, it's a natural thing, even I mean for me,
it's like I'll tell you a weird story. Yesterday I
came out of my apartment and there was a B

(01:11:16):
on the sidewalk in its death throws. You know, it
was like the end of its life and it was
just struggling and struggling. And I crushed it because I
was like, it was a mercy killing bastard I did.
I'm admitting it on that. But but is the point
is I felt I I felt like I felt an
emotional it was a B but I really, you know,

(01:11:39):
I was like, I just crushed it, but I felt
like I didn't want to watch it suffer. Now, um
now I feel like to just not have any kind
of emotion attached to it, I think, uh, that makes
me feel uncomfortable. I would rather have someone say, yeah,
it was really difficult and I pulled the trigger and

(01:11:59):
I fed my fast emily and yeah, there was no
I felt. I thought about that. That seems like, okay,
well yeah, that that's that doesn't that doesn't the thing
that scares me A soone who says I don't give
a shit, I just shoot everything. But but but I
wanted to go back to something. So you were going
to also address the issue of sustainability as being like

(01:12:21):
a kind of key criterion for this this view of conservation. Yeah,
and I think, um, you mentioned kind of sustainability on
a broad scale being impossible. Agree. I think the North
American model agrees with you. It says, well, Ship, we
can't do it on a continent level. We have to
do it on a state level or a regional level.

(01:12:41):
And most state and most, if not all that I
know of the state game agencies are built on like
specific regions, regional biologists who report into you know, state
game agencies who have a game commissions and who are
and who then um, Like in Montana, they say, here
the game laws for this year, here's how many you
can kill. Here's how many, here's how many animals you
can go and kill. Um. Based on the population size

(01:13:04):
is based only you know what, what's what we're seeing
on the ground. Let's say, you know, chronic wasting disease
hits a certain region, that regional biology is gonna go,
We'll hold on. Maybe we can't hunt deer this year. Maybe.
And so for me that sustainability can be localized. It
is localized in the North American model. And I think
that the geis and mahoney like hat tipped to hey man,

(01:13:24):
we know that this isn't sustainable on a broad, broad level,
because we know that population dynamics, the dynamics of ecosystems
from one to another are different, and they do need
to be seen as different, and they do need to
be managed locally as locally as we can know. That's
it is. It is not perfect. There's a lot of

(01:13:45):
state game agencies that catch a lot of flak from
hunters and non hunters alike over many things, including reintroduction
of wolves. Um, you know, the the hunting of grizzly bears,
and and on and on we go. We generally make
that make those points around charismatic predators, but um, there's
a lot of debate about things like, uh, here's something

(01:14:06):
that you've probably never heard of. Antler point restrictions is
something that has happened within the deer hunting population where
it used to be in in many states, you could
shoot any any legal deer could have spikes or above,
you know, if it's it's antlers on its head. So
many states have put in Antler point restrictions because they
know if you allow a deer to mature, you know,

(01:14:27):
that's going to help the population. So the biologists and
the game commissions are saying you can't shoot them unless
they have three on one side, because obviously that denotes
the age and maturity of the animal, thus a healthier
population given the dynamics, and so those things that I
think are at play. It's not perfect. Boy, it's human.
So it's it's a very imperfect way to do it,

(01:14:47):
I think. UM, But at least for me, it addresses
the sustainability in a very local, regional, and even ecosystem
level way. Um. And And on the show, we've definitely
talked about things like trophic cascade and when you when
you take a predator out of a landscape board, does
it do? When you put a predator back into a
landscape board? Does it do? And so UM, I think

(01:15:09):
that answers a bit of the sustainable question for me. UM.
It also just I was thinking of this when you
were talking earlier. It's it's almost as if if there
were two doors and and and you said, listen, you
can walk through two doors. One is animal rights. You're
not gonna ever kill anything, and if you do, it's
going to be with understanding that it might be merciful

(01:15:30):
or it might be absolutely necessary and you know, and
and you might be starving a need to eat. And
then the other one is you're going to take part
in this, you know, something that has sport and game
like qualities, and you enjoy it and it gets it
makes you feel all weird and happy, and you don't
understand why killing makes you happy, but you're gonna go
through that door. And on the other side, it is

(01:15:50):
like an understanding and value system conclusion. I've walked through
the hunting door, and I'm like, dude, I'm I don't
know what the other doors like, but this one is
adding am I care and adding to my value and
and I don't know a life that doesn't have this,
But I know what it's done for me, right, I
know that. Um it's it's really understood. And I guess

(01:16:13):
a good example of that, Robert would be I have
a four year old son, and you know what little
boys tend to like to do. They tend to like
the crush bugs, you know, Like he was, I kill
an ants the other day and and I sat him down.
We had a conversation about ants, and I said, listen, man,
we don't kill ants here like we don't or we
don't kill birds, we don't kill ants, we don't do that,

(01:16:36):
we don't kill things unnecessarily. And you know how I
learned that hunting, like I learned the nest like kind
of the dynamics of killing. And and he's four, and
he's like, Okay, no more birds, daddy, And that was it.
But that was more me talking to myself than him.
But it did help me understand like this songbird I
appreciate and I would never want to kill it because

(01:16:58):
I can't eat it. It's not a natural resource to me.
Now it's it's something different. So that dynamic would be
interesting to hear your thoughts on kind of how well
do you think that's? Like me just all of this
is like, am I just constructing something to make myself
feel comfortable about killing? Or is this really, you know, uh,
really attacked. How a way to live your life that

(01:17:18):
helps with some of the many dynamic and complex problems
we all have with with cohabitation being one of the
main things. Well, man, I'm glad that you shared another
I'm learning so much about well, I mean, I knew
that you are vulnerable, but now you're sharing how wonderful
a father you are. I'm one vulnerable son of a
bit you know that was a humble, humble bred you are.

(01:17:40):
You are a model father to sit down with your
son and then we had hey listen, and then we
had a mountain dew and watch cartoons. So I don't know,
I take it, but um no, that that's a wonderful
lesson to learn, like why unnecessarily, you know, kill these things?
I think. Um, so that's that. My hat's off to
you on that. On that front, Um, I do think that. Uh.

(01:18:04):
And and I like your response about you know, acknowledging
that sustainability it has to be local and it's it's
not something that is generalizable over the whole planet. Um,
here's here's a little you know, again, I'll reiterate, I'm
a philosopher, so I'm going to throw a thought experiments
at you. So look and here's here's the here's the

(01:18:27):
thought experiment from a from an animal rights ethicist. So
let's go back to your You have your two doors
to choose from, and the way you put it was,
on the one hand, there's like the animal rights world
where you don't kill anything unnecessarily, and you know, you
don't you know if you have to. But and the
the other door, you have this life of hunting where
you are doing sustainable killing. And now let me throw

(01:18:51):
twisted kind of a Twilight Zone twist. So what if
I said, um uh, see that door. Here's something you
don't know about either door. When you go through that door,
you don't know if you're going to be an elk
or a human m So you have to choose. But
you can't choose front loading, no, where you're gonna you

(01:19:13):
don't You're you're not gonna know where you're gonna be
in the hierarchy. Now I'll let you answer, but I
have a feeling that throws a that I don't say
throws a wrench, but that adds complication to the decision.
And I think the animal rights person wants to say.
What that shows is that there's a human bias built

(01:19:35):
in when you talk about this kind these kinds of
choosing which way to go. And the animal rights person says,
I what I say is, well, if if the possibility
I could be an elk, then certainly I'm going to
choose the first door. Don't shoot me, Yeah, don't shoot
me in the lungs. I'll only run two yards before

(01:19:56):
I die. I am delicious. Yeah, I mean I think, uh,
this would be like a game show that we could
do is if you walked through this door you're at
Elk and some hunters are gonna chase your would be
a I think we could probably get Drew carry to
run it. I think what you're asking is like, do

(01:20:21):
you have the ability to be empathetic here? You know?
Do you have the ability to see this animal for
what you know? What you believe at least an animal
rights believe that truly is with this like sentient being
that doesn't that no matter how you reason it, and
no matter how you structure something like a model or
a value system in your own life, no matter how

(01:20:42):
you do all those things, you still have to come
to the point where you're killing something that doesn't want
to die, like it it would prefer not to die.
And guess who shares that sentiment with that Elk? I do.
I would not like to die. I don't want anybody
to shoot me with an arrow, like especially as actually
an awesome broad head that it's like that has a

(01:21:02):
two inch cutting diameter that's meant to slice me in half,
so I can. So I only bleed out over a
couple of minutes, you know, Like I don't funk. I
don't want that at all, um, And so yeah, I
mean I think once I walked through those doors, if
I had had a chance as an elk to understand
what I know now, I'd probably say, like, boy, this,

(01:21:23):
you know what's better getting eaten by a wolf for
getting shot by a hunter? I don't know. But I
don't want to die. Like I'm an elk, I don't
want to die, you know. And so I think that
when you walk it back that far, I mean, yeah,
there's nothing left left to say, is like we share,
you know, what we share with animals. We don't want
to die. Nobody, no sentient being is born with the

(01:21:46):
idea of its death. As you know, really death is
an an inevitability. But the way you die, you would
you certainly like it to be your choice, right, Um.
But then I think I think that, and that's a
very thoughtful answer. But I think it's not merely. I
shouldn't say merely. It's not only about um. It's not

(01:22:06):
only shining a spotlight on empathy. It's also the thought experiment.
As I described it. It's it's shining a spotlight on
whether or not we are capable of being objective when
we're making assessments about value. Who's valuable and who isn't
and so and so. What I'm saying is, look, I
can't help but be biased towards non human you know,

(01:22:31):
in favor of human I'm a human, right, But that's
not a justification for it. And I'll give you an
obvious counter example. If I say, hey, uh, hey, what
race do you want to be on the other side
of that door? You don't really know. If I say, well,
I mean, look, I'm a white dude, so I think
I want to be a white guy. Um that that

(01:22:51):
gets a little bit prickly, like it's like, wait, hold
on a second, which right? So so if I think, well,
you know, should everyone be subject of the same laws,
And I'm trying to decide this before I walk through
the door, and then someone says, oh, by the way,
when you get on the other side of the door,
you don't know if you're gonna be white, black, indigenous,
a woman in a wheelchair. Right then I go, oh,

(01:23:12):
you know what, I better make sure that the laws
cover everyone as opposed to I know that I'm gonna
be a middle aged white philosophy professor, and then I'm like,
I don't care, you know. So I think the thought
experiment is important for the animal rights person because what
we say is to try to be objective, and again
not to dismiss empathy and emotion, that's very important, but

(01:23:34):
to try to be objective when we're deciding, when we're
choosing which values we should base our society on. Part
of that objectivity has to has to remove is to
remove ourselves from this privileged position and saying, well, I
don't have to worry when I choose the door. Here's
what I know. I'm cool. Everyone else is screwed. So
when you take that away, um, that's part of the

(01:23:56):
challenge of the animal rights position. I wish you have
given me this thought experiment way like I wish i'd had.
I'm gonna use this a lot because I like the
thought experiment because I think it drives that many things.
So I guess what I would to take it a
little bit further. I think, in terms of objectivity, no
matter if I walk through the door, right and and

(01:24:16):
you're gonna tell me no matter which one you are
elk or human. Elk and humans both exist in the
same numbers that they do today, in the same habitat
and the same landscape. So on an on an objective basis,
we're going to have to make a decision at some
point about how those two things coexist. Right, you know,
one eats the other, the other doesn't eat the elk
don't eat humans, but humans eat elk, right, And that's

(01:24:38):
been as long as there's been humans and elk. That's
how it's been, right, So we can't re engineer that.
So at some point, as we boiled down from kind
of like the broad based thought experiment and we get
closer to the actual interaction between an elk and a human,
we then have to start to like unravel this what

(01:24:59):
happens when you know, particularly elk in this case um
come into conflict with humans or are you know, you
have a farmer, he's got a crop field, that's his livelihood,
and the thousand elk come walking in and started eating
his crops, and there's nothing he can do. He can't
he could chase them off, they'll just come back tomorrow.
They're elk. They don't give a shit about his crops.

(01:25:20):
Um just as though, just as we can make that
value judgment between elk and crops, elk can make the
value judgment between that dude's crops and going up in
the mountains and eating some clover. Ladies can't um They're
gonna take the easiest path to staying alive, right, And
so we have once we get down to like the
actual beating of the cohabitation heads together, like what do

(01:25:42):
we do together here, then we can really start to
talk about like even if you have which I like
I've said from the beginning, you and I share a
lot of the same values around like the animal itself,
like ship man, I I love elk and so, but
what happens when we get in that situation wage and
how do we deal with it? And this is the
same conversation I have with Paula Sheer. We got into

(01:26:04):
arguing about rice and ship for like an hour. It
was really probably boring to the listeners, but we got
into this, like the it always to me boils down
to like how do you see that relationship? And then
when death happens, what's the result of that death? Because
the nature death is almost always a good thing. I mean,
I would say always a good thing. It's a good
thing for other animals. It's a good thing. And so

(01:26:26):
if I walk through that door and I'm an elk,
I'm like, well, no matter how I die, something's gonna
eat me. And in the case of a human, all
I'm gonna do is die. You're gonna bury me in
the ground and nothing. The bugs might eat me. But
you know, there's there's a whole different um a thought
press there. But you're not gonna tell the elk that
when he's walking around, like, hey, man, listen, if you die,
it's gonna be great. Something's gonna eat you, and you're

(01:26:47):
gonna be You're gonna be a food for something. You know,
it's helly elk that he'd probably like funck that he
can eat some other elk um. And so that's I
guess the thought. The thought experiment, when taken to it's
attempted conclusion, just shows us that god damn, this is hard.
It's like the individual thoughts and like the reality of

(01:27:08):
our our being. Really I can take that way off
into the wilderness or does that that makes sense? Now?
That that that makes total sense? And yeah, when the
rubber meets the road, you have to make some decisions.
If you're if your crops are getting destroyed and you
have you have, you know, a bunch of elk, then
you have a conflict of interest. Now you have to

(01:27:29):
resolve the conflict of interest. And then how you do that,
of course, is as a matter of debate. So, um,
I think that's when I would just I'm sorry to
interrupt you, but I think that's the core debate because
I've I've seen that kind of played out so many times,
and I think we always get to the point where
it's like we're debating the reality of the situation. I

(01:27:49):
almost would agree with you more in the theoretical me
and you, I think theoretically are right there, man, Like
we're basically in the same spot. Um, And the practicality
of the situation or just like that the conflict or
really like my own humanity versus the the elk nous
of the elk, right like those things are, you know,

(01:28:12):
that really becomes the conflict in my mind if if
I can ignore kind of of how it's always been,
and I can ignore how delicious and elk is or
an elk is and not eat one, but that damn
elk if he's hungry he's gonna go find them easiest,
most delicious, most calorie and inducing food because he's trying

(01:28:32):
to survive, right, So he's that Elk is not able
to make a decision like I am, and hence sometimes
the conflict. But to be clear, hunters aren't just hunting
for to mitigate conflict like that's you know, so that
that's not what's happening when I go out there. To
be clear, so I'm not I don't want to make
that I don't want to get that too entangled. But

(01:28:53):
just following kind of just following that that theory that
you that we're talking about, Well, if you want to
look at the you said you wanted to, I don't
want to. I don't want to monopolize. It's your it's
your program. I don't want to sidetrack us too much
from you know, the American model. But I know, I mean,
I think we're talking about it. All these subjects kind
of go back to it. We don't need to break

(01:29:14):
it down tenant by Tennant. Well, I one of the
things that in the in the animal rights world versus
the here's what's interesting, you know, environmentalists. So if you
if you if you take like a gross, you know,
coarse grained generalization, and you think like, oh, you have
these tree huggers, and you got the vegans, and you

(01:29:36):
know the hippies, you got all and you sort of
put them into one category. But in reality, in the
world of of environmentalists and animal rights people, there's a
great and I'm sure you know there's a great tension
between the environmentalists and the animal rights people because and
this goes back to our conversation we're just having, which is, um,

(01:29:58):
do I value the ecosystem? Do I value the systems
the whole? Do I take a holistic approach? Or do
I value the individuals that constitute the ecosystem? Right? And
and so these debates have been running for fifty years
at least in the animal rights versus environmentalists, which is, look,

(01:30:19):
it's okay to kill elk as long as a you're
doing it, as you said, sustainably and be you're doing
it in order to mitigate mitigate a greater harm to
the ecosystem, right, And and so that's kind of that's
taking this holistic approach where the individuals, the lives of
the individuals are like subordinate to this, to the to

(01:30:41):
the system, that the health and the stasis of the system.
And of course the animal rights person is going to say,
those are individual sentient beings. You can't just calling is
a euphemism for just wiping out, you know, incentient beings. Now, now, now,
I think what the animal rights person wants to say is, look,

(01:31:03):
is there any other way to do this? Because when
we when we look at human beings and you go, okay, look,
by the middle of the century, we're gonna have nine billion,
By the end of the twenty one century, we're gonna
have ten to eleven billion humans Homo sapiens are destroying
the planet in population numbers. Um, Now, how do we
solve that? Well, we don't say, well, we have a

(01:31:24):
lottery and then whoever loses goes to the you know,
to the great gods in the sky. We we we
talk about in our birth control, we talk about all
these all these ways and to to mitigate population growth.
When it comes to animals, what the animal rights person
says is, look, the animals deserve the same kind of
thought processes, like, how do we mitigate the damage to

(01:31:46):
the environment while still trying to respect the individual sentient beings?
Who can who constitute it, And you know, the environmentalists say, look,
you know this is nature just works like this. You know,
you eliminate the individuals and it makes the system, the
ecosystem comes back into equilibrium. So, um, I think that's

(01:32:07):
an important distinction to make when you're talking about how
could we integrate animal rights or or how can these
things fit together with wildlife management, I think we have
to address, well, do what are we really caring about?
And of course, again the animal rights person is going
to say, well, you guys, And I mean when I

(01:32:28):
say you guys, I mean the environmentalists who are who
who think think at the systems level, the ecosystems level.
You guys, you're all about ecosystems, except when it comes
to humans. So the bottom line is all humans get
to do whatever the hell they want. They can procreate
as much as they want, they can make as many
babies as they want, they can live where they want,
they can do whatever the hell they want to do.
And then for all the other beings on the planet,

(01:32:50):
then we control their numbers. And that's right. And so
the animal rights people want to say, uh, that again,
that that is an anthropocentric bias and if you want
to look at one species who's destroying the planet more
than any other species, if that's really what you're worried about,
we all know who that species is and it ain't
an elk. So I think that that sort of encapsulates

(01:33:12):
this tension that's been going on between environmentalists and animal
rights activists, This argument that's you know, I don't know
the answer to it. I think it's very complicated, but
I think it's important to acknowledge that these are these
are tough problems to to try to, you know, address.
I think the one thing, I guess there's two things
I would say to that, and one is the elk

(01:33:33):
probably would destroy the ecosystem if allowed to. In fact,
sometimes they do. Um if you just if there was
no predators, if there's if they were left unchecked, they
don't have the other than disease and winter kill and
and and things that would naturally kind of hone in
those populations those elk and never have a thought one
about conservation or the landscape they are on. They have,

(01:33:56):
you know, certain biological cues that they work from, which
is sex, sex, procreatepropriate, eat, eat, eat, live, live, live,
I mean that's that's what they are, right, and given
how ecosystems function, you have to have some sort of
check on that, and normally it's predators, right, So they are.
I think the argument an environmentalist or or animal rights
person might make like it doesn't need to be us

(01:34:18):
checking them, right. We could put wolves in there, they'll
check them. But but grizzly bears in and they'll check them.
So I think that's That's one thing I've often said
that about wolves and my experiences, wolves will just keep eating.
You know, we see wolves is like they might just
there might be there for a balance. Wolves don't think
about balance their meat processors and four legs like they're
they're a carnivore in the true truest sense and a

(01:34:41):
predator in the truest sense. And so you know, I
guess there's where you know. Dr Valarious Skyst was was
the really the main author of our model of conservation
told me earlier this summer he just said the words
intelligent intervention. And then when he said that to me,
I thought, well, they're like if there's two words that

(01:35:03):
could encapsulate what you're talking about, just there right, Like
this idea that of leaving them alone or managing them.
You know, we we acknowledge we're different, We acknowledge we
have a degraded impact on the landscape, and we acknowledge
all those things. But we have to intervene intelligently because
we have that intelligence to make those ethical immoral choices

(01:35:26):
on behalf of the animals. Because they don't. They'll eat
the grass with the grass is there, they'll kill the elk.
If the elk is there, don't much care um because
they just have biological cues that drive them. So I
I guess the first point. I'm not as hard on
the first point. But man, when I heard, you know,
kind of the father of this model that I've studied
and studied say intelligent intervention, I thought, Okay, Like to me,

(01:35:52):
that's that if we're going to intervene, that's the type
of intervention that we need to do. Intelligent intervention doesn't
say killing, it doesn't say it doesn't say what type
of intelligence intervention that we're doing, but it just says
we have the ability to intervene intelligently, and boy, we
ought to um for the sake of every every species,
every being. So it doesn't that I don't want it.

(01:36:13):
That's not a concept that I think has anything to
do with hunting. I think it has to do with
what you were just speaking about there, which is very
much just we have to intelligently intervene, and then we
have to have this debate, you and I and people
in our positions have this debate about what that intelligence
is and how that intervention takes place. You know, and
but but I think I I'm firm that and we

(01:36:34):
have to intervene in some way, whether it's policy making
you say never kill, or it's policy making to say
only kill a little bit. I think we have to
intervene intelligently. Well now, now, now the philosopher is gonna
shed the theoretical abstract and come down to the practical,
and I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say, Okay, here's what
I want to say that, and that is I agree

(01:36:57):
with you that and in the at the abstract, intelligent
intervention is probably unavoidable, it's probably indispensable. However, as you know,
maybe I'm just a little bit cynical when I think
that human Well, let's look at the track record of
the of the phrase intelligent intervention, and I think we

(01:37:20):
ain't doing so well, So, um, I look around and
go like, are we are we really gonna leave humans?
I'm glad it's it's it's laughable, like, look at what
we've done to the planet. It's it's insane. So and
now again I'm not I'm not. I'm saying at the
level of theory, it would be great if we could
have some intelligent intervention and we used the best science

(01:37:43):
we have to understand ecological relations and understand um uh
stasis and these kinds that I'm totally on board with that.
I'm just saying as as a human who's been on
the planet for a few decades, I get a little
nervous when we're relying on intelligent intervention to solve problems. Um.

(01:38:05):
So that's a that's a very point, Mr Jones. But
but no, I I agree. Look, here's where I think
we get this is a you made a really great
point I wanted to just reiterate, and that is it's
not really about like when you talk about intelligent intervention
and you know, look, we you can think of it
like this is triage. We have to do something, we

(01:38:27):
can't do nothing, and and hunting it's just a subcategory
of doing something, it's not hunting versus not hunting. I
think that's a really important point to make, that that
once we recognize we can't do nothing, then we look
at all the options that are on the table, and
then you have these different values we bring. Um. But

(01:38:49):
you know, I think it's important too to say that, uh,
I mean somewhere like New Zealand. Uh, there were no
predators in New Zealand for tens of thousands of years.
And I don't you know again, I'm I'm not trying
to canter the view that well, if there's no controls,
then things are going to go out of whack. But

(01:39:10):
the point is, um, there have been places on the
planet where there have not been predatory controls. There have
been other kinds of controls, and things kind of seem
like they were okay until you know, humans game and
introduce predators in New Zealand. Right, so, now New Zealand
has a massive you know, they're doing a they have
invasive speed. I mean, we you and I could spend

(01:39:30):
hours talking about quote invasive species. But that's why one
of my favorite topics right now, like why do we
get Oh we better get hey, hey mate, we better
get in a helicopter and kill all those tar and
like why because they're not native. I'm like, well, you're
a little tiny island. The only thing is left native.
There's a parrot. Like what are we what are we
even discussing? Like you talking about a theoretical discussion, mind Jesus.

(01:39:52):
So yeah, I mean so that's the kind of thing
where um uh you know, my, maybe this is more
of an intuition, but my, you know, I think you'll
agree with me that here's here's what my it's more
of a general kind of feeling, and that is you
know what human beings, Um, ship can be okay without

(01:40:13):
you messing things like like nature. Quote, nature has been
around a long time before human beings. If Homo sapiens
you know, are a quarter of a million years old,
if that's what our best science tells us nature, and
and you know, the planet as we know it has
been around for a very long time. And for us

(01:40:34):
to think that without us intervening, ship is going to
go sideways, I think you would agree to say no, no,
Like we the reason why we have to intervene is
because and in a large part is because we keep
sucking up right, And I'm not. I'm not I want
to I just want to make it clear. I'm not
a primitivist where I'm saying we all need to return

(01:40:56):
to the you know, shun clothing. I'm not saying that.
I'm merely trying to say that it's not a bad
idea to to step back sometimes and say, wait a second,
let's just question this assumption that we're working under, which
is humans makes things better, we improve you know, we
we we take a resource and it's sitting there doing nothing,

(01:41:17):
and we come and make it. It's like those forests
that are seeing their quote doing nothing, they've been doing
nothing for tens of thousands of years, yes, and they're
doing fine. So yeah, to be cleared, as you asked me, like,
what's the North American model, I said, well, a hundred
years ago, we really fucked this place up bad. So
the point, like our whole point, the point of this conversation,

(01:41:39):
or the point of the model itself, was like, we
never want to go back to what happened at the
turn of the century, you know, we never want to
go back to that, and this is the best best
way we can figure out how to get there. Um,
And that's you know, and and I think it acknowledges
if we were if there was no humans, it probably
be it would probably work out just fine. But there
are humans, and so as you mentioned, we got to

(01:42:01):
kind of on a on a larger broad scale do triage.
I like that term in terms of of of how
we cohabitate and manage wildlife, because triage is probably a
pretty good term for what we're trying to do. And
then on a on a local level, on a personal level, boy,
I'm just one little part. I'm just one little stitch

(01:42:23):
in that triage. If we're sewing up a wound, I'm
one little stitch. But boy, just being that one little
stitch makes me gives me this human value that that
I've tried to articulate here with you and and for
three damn years on this podcast. And so I feel like,
you know, man, if I if I am a little
piece of of us stumbling around in the dark trying

(01:42:44):
to figure this out, um, it's helping me as a
human and it's helping to find a little bit of
how I moved through the world. And that that that
to me is like, well, I'm willing to be a
part of of the of us stumbling around trying to
figure it out, because eventually, maybe Robert, there will be
a thing where there's a small band of hunters. There's
maybe a million of us, and and we no one

(01:43:07):
else kills things. But they come along and we show
them what's up. Hey, here's how humans used to be,
and we say, look at that. We'll shoot that elk
right there. We eat it, and then they go back
to the lives and they go and get their lab
based hamburger and they eat that and it tastes like
that meat. They didn't have to kill ship to get it,
but they understand what killing looks like and what it
might mean, and then they get to enjoy that lab
based hamburger all the more because they understand, you know,

(01:43:29):
what their forebears did, those damn cavemen, that that we're
killing animals. At some point, I think, um, that's why
you'll find here at meat Eater. I don't want to
speak for everybody, but I definitely feel kind of an
admiration for not particularly plant based meat, because it still
has a still has a big effect on our environment,

(01:43:50):
and it's probably not that great for us in its
current form, but lab based meat I've I've come to
be like m that could be a good solution like that. Yeah, man,
you can make a lot of that ship and uh
probably wouldn't affect a whole lot of people, and it
would be a nice way to mitigate what we all
know is a problem outside of you know, the eleven
million or so hunters that are out there, because that

(01:44:10):
number can't really grow. It can't go to fifty million,
a hundred million. It can't because our our ecosystems and
our animals or wildfe population just can't maintain that demand.
So there is a sublime demand part of this which
certainly certainly doesn't feel animal rights e and it's and
how I stated that, But at some level that's where

(01:44:31):
we are. You know, we know that this thing isn't
isn't the ultimate solution, but maybe it's like one stitch
in the triage um and boy, it feels really it
feels like a uniquely human endeavor, if not maybe h
anti modernistic in a way that it's carried out. I
been you know what I like what you said is

(01:44:53):
the part about I mean, I like everything you said,
but I like the thing I zero in on was
your description of us sort of stumbling in the dark,
and I that's that's that's you know what philosophers like
to call epistemic humility, which is a fifty cent term
that says, look, don't assume that you know everything, right, Like,

(01:45:15):
we start out with this view that says, like, for
me as an animal rights person, for me as someone
who is a vegan and trying to go through the
world following principles that decrease harm in the same way
that you do, Ben right, you don't. You told your
son no, don't unnecessarily step on ads, right. So it's
interesting we share that kind of thing. But I also

(01:45:37):
feel like, just like you do, it's like, look, this
whole thing is so crazy, it's so gigantic. There's so
much interconnectedness when it comes to ecosystems, when it comes
to killing and death and food feeding humans and and
and I feel like, look, I'm just trying. I'm I

(01:45:58):
am kind of stumbling around. I don't have all the answers.
I just want to leave the planet a little bit
better when it's my time to shove off, to have
the humility to go. I'm trying to figure it all out.
And I have this really discrete and limited amount of time.
You know, if if I lived a thousand years, I
might be able to figure something out, But in the

(01:46:19):
short time that I have, I'm doing the best I can.
And so I think that's important for all sides of
the of the of this question. And when it comes
to going back to the issue of wildlife management, it's like,
we can do the best we can, but we should
always do so humbly, with with humility and and and
saying I'm we're trying to We're trying, in all earnestness

(01:46:41):
and all sincerity to do the best we can to
mitigate harm. I think that, you know, Yeah, that's a
lot of overlap between you and I. I really do.
And I think if we can all take a step back,
you know, because we've talked a lot this year on
this show even about kind of like the divisiveness of
of our cultures, and we were just talking about around

(01:47:03):
the collection of people around this podcast, people are collecting
around complex and almost at some points impossible ideas. Right.
Rather than taking those complex and impossible ideas and in
crystallizing them into two sides and beating each other over
the head with those ideas, these people are gathering around

(01:47:24):
these like Hey, man, you want to gather around and
talk about some ship we'll never figure out? Like, oh yeah, man,
I'd love to gather around and talk about some things
that are existential, uh and and human, very human endeavors. Um.
And that really is is ultimately the most warming thing
for me to think about that we're able to you

(01:47:44):
and I are able to get together and kind of
just just agree upon the complexity of our situation, you know,
and not say that I'm right or you're wrong, or
or or we can't have a productive discourse or even
not even really a discourse, just an agreement that we're
in this gumbo of of human and animal complexities that

(01:48:06):
will almost be never ending. It's a cause and effect game.
It's not a single it's not a zero sum game. Um.
And so you know we're talking about we're often talking
about trade offs and causes and effects and different things
that are that are not a it's not a deterministic game. UM.
We know that we're working on it together. And I
think ultimately that's of doing this for three years, that's

(01:48:27):
where I I that's what I've learned. I've learned that
that we are doing this together, and it's a point
that we have divided ourselves into vegans and hunters was
the point where we lost our ability to figure it out,
you know, or at least or at least get a
little closer to the actual solution in and of itself.
And so that's why, you know, having you on, man,

(01:48:50):
I've always said, I'm like, Man, we you and I
could probably take this onto the road and fill theaters
full of people that want to listen to us to
mokes talk about, you know, like to do duds from
opposite sides of the country talk about these ideas. And
the thing that's compelling about those conversations is not that
we figure it out, or that I believe in hunting

(01:49:11):
and you believe in animal rights and we can't and
we're just yelling at each other. That's not it. What's
compelling is that we're able to move forward slowly and um,
and then we don't have to yell at each other
to get there. Uh. And so we're in a crazy world.
But at least that to me is something that we
can we can figure out together and and I'm glad

(01:49:33):
to have done it, that's for sure. Yeah, me too, Ben,
And I think you touched on something another thing that
I find to be important and in some ways disconcerting,
and that is especially in our current political culture as well.
It's like you and I and many people like us,

(01:49:54):
who are you know, take quote, you know, one side
or the other. I think our discussions are emblematic of
something that's that's vitally important to having, as you said,
discourse or having a discussion, and that is having a
shared set of values and a shared set of beliefs

(01:50:16):
that at some foundational level, like when you scrape from
the top down, here's a vegan animal, right sky, here's
a hunter, and you get start to dig and drill down.
Then you say, well, you know, Ben wants the world
to be a certain way, and Ben doesn't want to
unnecessarily harm and bend values things like animals and the

(01:50:39):
environment on autonomy, and Robert does this kind of stuff,
and and so that provides a foundation for a fruitful discussion.
And the thing that I fear in looking at our
current political situation is that for many people, it's seems

(01:51:00):
to me in the country, we don't even share any
longer a kind of foundational notion of like what's valuable,
like what true? Here's something like what is true? Like,
what does it mean? What is truth? Is it? Like?
For most of us, truth is like something happens in
the world. And then I tell I say a statement,
and if that statement corresponds to what happens in the world,

(01:51:22):
then we say it's true. Right. So if I say
snow is white, you go that why is that true?
Because the stuff in the world separate from me is white.
It's snow, right, And so just it's having that foundation,
we're like, okay, yeah, that yeah, we agree snow is white. Okay, cool.
And it seems like the more I read I get,
you know, when I teach my students, I get a
little bit, I get sad, and I get a little

(01:51:45):
worried because the very foundations of like what's right, what's wrong,
what's good, what's bad? What kind of world? It gets disconcerting.
So these kinds of conversations I think that you and
I have um and you know, not gon not like
here tooting my own horn. You're the one who this is,
You're the mastermind behind this. But what I what I

(01:52:06):
think is it's important and we've talked about this before. Man,
it's important to model a kind of discussion on very
important and sensitive topics where there are these differences, but
at at the fundamental level, there are values that are shared.
And I think that's something we're really missing. And your
your podcast, in my mind, has always provided an example

(01:52:29):
of how to how to engage with different ideas in
a way that is, it comes from a place of respect,
and it comes from a place of ultimately of wanting
the same kind of world. You know that that your
quote opponents might want. So my hat is off to
you for that. Well, thank you, thank you. It means
it means the world to me to hear that. Um.

(01:52:52):
And also, I guess I'll end with this. I think
it's not only hunting in veganism or animal rights. How
do you shape that debate? I I have a certain
particular notion about guns, but I would say at some level, uh,
the polls, the two different ideas are often even though

(01:53:13):
they're being marketed or or told that they're on opposite
sides and that they could never understand each other, the
issue is that they're really thinking anti gun people in
pro Second Amendment folks are both talking about most of
the time the value of life, right control the guns
to save lives. Give me some guns to save my

(01:53:34):
life for my family's life. So they're both kind of
comparatively talking about the value of life and how guns
affect that value, right And and same thing with hunting
and vegan we're both talking about the value of animals
and how one action affects that value. And so we're
people that are being told. It's often the people that

(01:53:55):
are being told to disagree or being driven by ideologies
or group think confirmation bias to disagree with each other
that often are coming from a place where they could
agree um as as always give that idea of starting
the same place. You walking away with each other, walking
away from each other, and as you get further away,
you yell louder like. That's just how it works. And

(01:54:15):
I and that's one thing I've learned over time. This
is certainly that when you're being told that the other
person over there is the enemy, it's most likely that
you could probably find uh, something relational in your enemy
that you could say, look at that, we think the
same way about that, and then maybe you won't have
any enemies anymore. I don't I certainly don't want any.

(01:54:36):
And I've seen a lot of people in the media
create enemies out of friends, to drive a narrative, or
to drive in action, or to drive hate or fear.
When they don't have to, they could just say, everybody,
get along. I know it's not as compelling as Hayitan,
but just get along. Watch next week. You know when
we get along. That would not be a good uh

(01:54:57):
not be a good drop on cable TV. That does
not sell new spe hell no, hell no. Well, Robert,
thank you again for this, always being so willing to
come on and talk to us. And uh, as I said,
I think at one point in our lives, you and
I should take this on the road. Um and uh
once once there is a road to go on, I guess,

(01:55:18):
and we can get I am I am game for
that because here's what I would the people who show
up to listen to you and I talk. I think
there are people we we would um, we would like
to hang out with me. Whoever would show up to
this kind of thing. Hey, after after the after we
did our thing, we can go you know, have a
couple of beers and have a couple of beers. Yeah,

(01:55:38):
and whenever we get into the Roaring twenty two is
when everybody's just out running around crazy with their vaccines.
Maybe we can do it. All right, keep keep me
posted on that. Thank you so much. Man. All right, brother,
I'll talk to you later. Man. That's it. That's all

(01:56:00):
another episode in the books. Thank you to roberts See Jones,
the one and only. He is my favorite interview by
far on this podcast. I wish you could have been
in person, but I'm glad we got to do it.
I'm glad we got to figure some stuff out. Thank
you to Nuri Hong and everybody that's that's joined up
th h C and the t C chapters all over
the internets. We really appreciate you in every way possible.

(01:56:23):
I gotta tell you before we get into uh, some
major news here in a second, I gotta tell you
the Bear Grease Podcast with our boy Clay Nucom is
now live and in color everywhere you might listen to podcasts,
especially I Heart Radio and their app. Have you listened, Obviously,
you want to give your review, Phil, I've got an
awesome user review of the show I want to read.

(01:56:47):
But Phil, you want to give your review of the
Bear Grease Podcast. Yeah, it's a tough podcast to sum
up because it's kind of Clay I feel like it's
kind of like Clay Unleashed. That's my review. It's kind
of all all the stuff he's clearly um passionate about
when it comes to hunting and hunting culture, specifically in

(01:57:09):
the South. Um So he brings in a lot of
folklory interviews, all kinds of guests, from doctors and professors
all the way to just like old hillbillies. He's known
his entire life um to talk about just various subjects.
You know. The first episode is about mountain lions. He's
got episodes about hunting with dogs, about owls, just about.

(01:57:32):
So it's all it's I mean, he like, he just
spans the gamut. It's an interesting podcast. It's a relatively
quick listen. It's only about an hour long, but it's
more produced than a lot of our other stuff. So
it's got an original soundtrack, lots of like music, um
sound design sequences and stuff. Who's doing the sound design? Phil,
who's doing the sound design? Oh I am ben Bam.

(01:57:55):
That's Philly engineer playing in your ear holes. You're gonna
want to listen to that, and I'll tell you it's
it's like this American life for for as Clay would
say Hillbillies. Um, I would say that, and and he
got a five star review from Scott Harrison. Kay, and
the title of it is Beargrease Podcast is the marrow

(01:58:15):
of the world. And uh, it says it reads Ain't
this something I told my man and my pap. I
was listening to the Beargrease podcast a trap and be
a mountain man and acted like they was gut shot.
They said, son, make your life go here. Here's where
the people's is. The Beargreas podcast is for animals and savages,
I says, mother Goo. The beargreasee podcast is the marrow

(01:58:37):
of the world. And by god, I was racked. And
this is the place I have that guy on his podcast.
That's what I told Clay. I was text with him like, yeah,
I have that guy on man. He is rocking and rolling.
Uh so go listen to Bargrease, Man. It is a
fantastical podcast. Um. And now listen Phil. Now we gotta

(01:58:59):
get into something that is incredibly serious. I imagine, for
for me, for you and for everyone else. Uh. And
is is an important topic? Um? Because I have a
big announcement today. And again it doesn't have anything to
do with anything else other than the words I'm about
to say to you, So UM, listen closely. Over I

(01:59:20):
would say, over the last three years, I've poured my
heart and soul into the Hunting collective, UM, and I've
been grateful for the chance to tackle almost every debate
and impossibly complex issue we've come across here alongside everybody
that listens, all the th C listeners out there. Yeah,
most of most of what we can do and and

(01:59:42):
figure out these complex issues is because we've had time.
We've had time to think and react, reason and grow
and eventually find our way forward. And that time is essential.
But now our time will soon come to an end.
The May eleventh episode of th HC are seventy seven
recording will be our last recording, be our last episode.

(02:00:07):
As Meat Eater continues to grow, my role has evolved
and my attention is needed elsewhere as director of all
the hunting content for the media to brand. The smartest
decision for our business, which is the business I care about,
is to channel my focus into new content that's going
to resonate with our audience. And I can promise you
that I will bring the same thoughtful approach to our

(02:00:27):
hunt content for the new and familiar faces, including Clay Nukem,
that you're used to from this show. You know, at
its core this is hard for me to kind of explain.
And again we have four more weeks ago, so we'll
continue to talk about this, but you know, at its core,
th HC really hasn't changed since we debuted it in February.

(02:00:47):
The show is always meant to explore why we hunt
through an ongoing conversation, and there's always been guests from
inside and outside of our community that have come to
help us work through those conversations. For each time we've
had somebody on, we discovered these different perspectives on hunting,
and we began to build a better collective vision for

(02:01:08):
who we are and why we love this and chasing
that collectivision. I have learned to always actively challenge my
own beliefs and the beliefs of my and our community.
I have hunted for my own biases and I've tried
to understand their impact on my worldview. I've become an
admirer of ecosystem level thinking in the North American model
of wildlife conservation. I've tried to build a more inclusive

(02:01:32):
place promoting a diversity of not only backgrounds and skin colors,
but also ideas and early on this program, I remember
saying one time that I didn't want this podcast. I
didn't want THHC to be about me. It was always
meant to be about us. But the truth is this
show has been a story about my life, and I

(02:01:53):
imagine it will remain as a weird time capsule for
who I was and who I have become. I created
this show because I needed to find my own y
along the way. It has grown and changed organically, as
if we were all designing and building a kick as
roller coaster while we were already riding it. Today, I'm

(02:02:14):
happy to have had that opportunity to spent so many
hours with every single one of you, and I'm proud
that we've gathered around our shared passion for almost for
over really over three years. You know. Ask for me
and my future, I can't tell you. I am absolutely
gonna be right here at Meat Eater helping this company
achieve our collective goals, and I'm going to create impactful

(02:02:36):
content along the way for you all. It's just not
going to be here at th HC. But listen, Phil,
you know this th HC is not over yet. We've
got four weeks to go to say goodbye to you all,
and we've got Phil the engineers first Turkey Hunt as
the final most important thing will have done in the
three years of this program. So there's still some fun

(02:02:57):
left to be had. All I'm gonna ask you guys,
it was raising white Claw, have a drink, digest this news,
and we've got a few more shows. We've got more laughs,
more conversations that will make us think, Uh, Phil, any
commentary on your part about the the ending, the the
sun setting of this year t HC program, I kind

(02:03:21):
of just wanted to leave it, leave it with what
you said, Ben, because that was that was a great,
great kind of statement there. But I told I told
this to you, and you first told me about this news,
which was that the timing of th HC ending. I mean,
you know, you could say that there's like you know,

(02:03:41):
there's not like a good way for people taking this news,
but I would say it's the best possible way th
HC could be ending is right now. Around these chapters
which started off as a complete like off hand comment
from you or me about Eric Hall mentoring someone in
the Blu Ray Mountains or whatever. And I we said

(02:04:02):
it could be all like you could have it. It
could be like American Legions, and I think could be one.
And then that's the THHC halls that the cult chapters
and that it's actually happened. And from what we heard,
like from Luke Reeves and Nuri and everyone on Facebook,
I mean, this this thing, it's this train is not

(02:04:22):
stopping with the end of the podcast, and it's going
to live on for who knows how long with the
communities that you created. And I know that that this
news is probably hard for a lot of people to hear,
but I think it could It could not have been
and the show cannot be ending in a better state.
And I don't know if you agree, but I do agree.

(02:04:46):
I do agree, And I never you know, you never
know to expect when you talk to somebody like Nuri
or Luke or somebody that's involved in the leadership and
and those chapters, you never know, um how it's gonna go.
But he what what what is importan and to me
for everyone to know is that the connections that have
been made because of this show in those chapters could

(02:05:08):
not have been a better result of all the conversations
we've had over the last three years. It could not
if if I mean me and Philly. So you get
excited over two people getting together to go hunt, but
now we've got thousands of people getting together. And I
can't tell you how heart and di am by that, um,
and how much I look forward to seeing what's going
to happen there. And so yeah, fail, you're exactly right,

(02:05:29):
and and everything has to come to an end somehow,
some way, and um, this is this is our way
and Phil's first hunt, and these chapters into the future
is how we're going to move forward. And I'm excited.
I'm not sad. Um, I'm excited. I'm excited for what
what's going to happen in the short term and in
the long term. And also Phil, I think I could

(02:05:51):
sell this microphone on eBay and get gets a sweet
amount of money, a couple hundred bucks probably. Yeah. Sure,
I'm not going to tell anyone, So don't worry about it,
all right, thanks man, Well I appreciate it. Listen, everybody,
digest this news. Come back next week, ready to listen,
ready to have fun, ready to be challenged, and we'll
do it for four more weeks here at the Hunting Collective,
say bye Phil, goodbye. Clean you're gun, and tune your

(02:06:16):
bowl where the hunt clicked, showing calling hunters new and
all the hunt collected, show working pick and shuttle or
working being in hand. We call regate nice lovers of
the lane. I'm the land. We're focused. We're just living
for the searching, dreaming of fire and a salty gilburn.

(02:06:38):
But we ain't coming back to heal. It's colden lane,
taking it slow. So week and shoot straight. Clean your
gun to your bowl where the hunt clicked, show calling
hunters new and all the ain't no cold une

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