Bee Wise 12 Leadership Lessons from a Busy Beehive with Philip Atkinson

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
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Bees
have many different jobs andonly fly for the last few days
of their lives, which is 34 days.
Bees swarm to new locations and take timeto seek second opinions from each other.
And might disagree, but when adecision is taken, all the bees
agree and stand by that decision.

(00:43):
Very unlike many of us in organizations,male bees are no longer necessary at the
end of the summer and they are murderedby the female worker bees so as not to
be a drain on resources in the winter.
Again, you could say that's likein many organizations or it's a
desirable thing in many organizations.
Our guest today brings a freshperspective to many of the most

(01:05):
pressing challenges we face inleadership and organizations today.
He is an organizational coach and thebeekeeper, he lifts the lid on what
happens inside a hardworking hive and usesthis as a refreshing metaphor to examine
working life, he is the author of BEE WISE12 Leadership Lessons from a Busy Beehive.

(01:27):
Philip Atkinson, welcome to the show.
Aidan, thank you very much.
Nice to be here.
It's great to have you with us joiningus from Alsace in beautiful France.
And before we start, Philip, I have a copyof this beautiful book up for grabs, but I
wanted you to share where the proceeds go.
So let's share that straight up front.
Thank you.
And this is important, all proceedsfrom the sales of the book go

(01:50):
to a charity called Bees forDevelopment, bees for development.org.
And they just do some amazing work helpingfamilies all around the world develop
a sustainable business through bees,through honey, through pollinating, in
order to pay for their kids' education.
It's just a lovely, it's a lovelycharity that did some great work and
all proceeds from book sales go to them.

(02:12):
You've structured thebook in a beautiful way.
So 12 leadership lessons, 12 monthsin the year, the Four Seasons as well.
So I'm gonna tee you up foreach of the chapters, the 12
chapters that focus on a lesson.
Gives a metaphor, gives alesson, a leadership lesson or
a lesson in life in some way.
And spring, as you say, is thebeginning of the annual cycle

(02:34):
for bees and the beekeeper.
The queen will start to lay eggs assoon as the temperature begins to rise.
And the first telltale white blossom ofthe blackthorn bush appears in hedgerows.
In Europe.
From that moment on, the bees arein full growth phase building combs,
rearing young and foraging for nectarand pollen and starting to make honey.

(02:56):
Meanwhile, inside corporate life,the new year and spring are also
the time for growth and development.
Goals may be defined, budgetsmay be set, and in this section
of the book, you look first at.
Chapter one, organizational design, andthe metaphor here is the working hive.
So let's start off and share howthe hive looks and then draw your

(03:19):
analogies to the organization.
And a comment actually for context, firstof all I started beekeeping as a hobby
completely separate from work and thenat work I was working in organizational
design and coaching and leadershipand training, and all of a sudden, one
day I was sitting outside my office.

(03:39):
Which was a square box, a four storysquare box, and there was a small door
at the front and people were coming andgoing, and the inside there was a buzz.
And inside it was complicated witheveryone being busy and there was
an amazing product coming out.
Happened to be cancer treating drugs.
I worked in a big pharma company andall of a sudden I realized that my
hobby that had nothing to do withwork and my work that had nothing to

(04:02):
do with my hobby were very related.
So the metaphor.
Beekeeping and complexorganizations began, and it hit me.
So that's how it started.
And then actually organizational design.
Need to be conscious and be verythoughtful about how we design
the shape of our organizations.
You know, the old model was a hierarchy,assuming that the person at the very top

(04:28):
knew more than the next person, lowerdown, and then more than the next person.
And it's, these actually old fashionedcommand and control models were very good
for, since the industrial revolution.
until today, and today,world is more complicated.
And actually let's then the beemetaphor as well as the queen
is not in charge of the hive.

(04:48):
not the queen at the top, actually, thequeen actually serves the population.
She doesn't control.
It's her job to, to lay eggs.
But it's just one role and thewhole organism works together.
And actually when we look atorganizations at work now, they, again,
let's look at the whole organization.
So it's a fun, it's a funentry into this topic.

(05:10):
I.
And Philip, one of theinteresting things I found.
That chapter was that the queen islocked away from all the workers,
and I found that analogous to how aleadership team or the CEO is often
locked away from the people doing thework and doesn't have that information
or connection to the outside world.
Yeah, the queen is protected.

(05:33):
A bit like the Vatican Guard.
You know the queen is protected andshe works in the dark at the bottom
of the hive, just laying eggs.
She does.
She only leaves the hive once at thebeginning of her life, which is her
honeymoon flight, which is when she isfertilized eggs for the rest of her life.
She serves the organization.
She's totally locked awayand the workers do the work.

(05:56):
One of the things that I foundlovely, and this is a beautiful
metaphor for innovation, isthe idea of the waggle dance.
So many, most of the hive areworking, creating honey, raring,
the young, creating the hive, buta small portion of the population.
Do this work where they're tryingto find out opportunities for the

(06:18):
future and to communicate thisback, they use the Weigel dance.
I'd love you to share thisbeautiful way bees communicate.
So first of all, you're right, 90% of thebees are in the hive looking after the
eggs, making the honey feeding the queen.
So they're working insidethe hive, 10% of the bees.
And that's the last roll we'll talk about.
But they are foraging and whenthey go look at, they might find

(06:41):
a beautiful apple tree full ofmillions of flowers of blossom.
They need to come back to thehive and convince the bees that's
where they should all fly to.
And it was a Nobel Prize-winning piece ofwork that discovered the bees do a figure
of eight dance the figure of eight dance.
The central axis describes theangle to the sun, is the direction,

(07:06):
and then the energy they put intothe dance says how far it is.
And they repeat that messageagain and again and again.
A one bee might go, I've got it.
I'm going.
And the second bee comes back andrepeats the same dance, and the third
bee might go and go, I've got it.
also they come back covered in pollen.
So all these bees are coming back andthey're all sharing the same message,

(07:28):
and they're spreading the word.
And eventually 50,000bees get the message.
And if you think about emails todaysent from corporate comms perhaps, or
change agents or something, need to beclear on your messaging and then you
need ambassadors to retell the story.
And you need individualsto go, I've got it.

(07:50):
This is what I understand.
an awful lot about how you communicateand the bees are doing this in the dark.
So it's, in a very busy, noisy hive andsometimes at work it can feel like you are
in the dark, in a very noisy, busy hive.
But you really need to be clearabout your messaging, , so this is a

(08:10):
fun chapter to learn from the bees.
It's such a relevant analogy for whathappens inside organizations where.
The same thing, and I'm sure it'sthe exact same in populations.
You work as an organizational designconsultant, you also work coaching people.
And you know those people you come across,they're mainly the listener to this show.

(08:32):
They are the forger whoare out looking for who?
Who.
And they don't even mean to, but theycan't help but not see new opportunities.
They can't help but.
Look to explore.
There are probably dopaminergic,highly dopaminergic people
that spot opportunities.
And this piece about the communicationis it doesn't matter how good the idea is

(08:55):
unless you can relay that story back tothe organization to get them to agree it.
And this is where so muchof innovation falls apart.
So let's just spend a moment onthis really important aspect of
communicating the opportunities backto the hive, the organizational hive.
Well, first of all, you're right, andwhether, whether your organization

(09:16):
is, is, is a group of 15 volunteers.
Or 15,000 or 150,000, how youcommunicate, it's a two way thing.
You know, just communicatingto people is not enough.
You need to make sure that peoplehave understood it and then you
need to hear that back again.
You know, and some clients we work with.

(09:37):
You know, it might be to customersor or to clients or or to colleagues.
You can't just say, I sent anemail in the summer and it's done.
How.
This is a beautiful seguethen for creativity.
So the analogy.
Use here is chapter three iscreativity as Pollination.

(09:58):
And it's a beautiful way to think aboutan organization discovering things
and also that they have this innate,everybody has this innate in them.
Yes, some people are more creativethan others, but as you say, it's an
interesting metaphor for innovationand how it can rarely be optimized or
optimally developed by one individual.

(10:19):
It needs the entire hive.
So let's share this beautiful metaphor.
I loved, I loved your comment that youknow, some people are more, stimulated
to go looking for ideas, and that'swhat we want in an organization.
We're not gonna find ideas inside thehive, in the dark at the bottom when we're
busy, busy, busy all the time dealingwith internal focused stuff in the dark.

(10:40):
to stretch our wings and we need toexplore, and we need to look at the
horizon, and that's where ideas come fromand ideas come from diversity as well.
Again, let's go back to the bees.
You do get these beautiful bigmeadows, huge, you know, in, in all
the way across Europe and America.
These huge yellow fields of rapee oil.

(11:04):
It, there's no diversity inthere, there's no difference.
There's, you know, looksgreat, but actually.
We're saying new ideas come from manydifferent sources, from different types
of people, different types of thinking,different opportunities, things together
in a different way and listening tocustomers and what they really need.
And innovation comes from that processof putting together lots of different

(11:26):
think and, and, and experimenting andthinking and poking and being curious.
And that's exactly whatthe bees do as well.
I thought that was interestinglinkage to the queen.
So if the queen is the CEO essentially,and she is stuck in the hive, locked
away with that guard, the Vatican Guard,keeping her carefully away from everybody.

(11:49):
It's so true in so many organizations.
You know, until recently, manyorganizations even had a separate
lift for leadership, so they wouldn'thave to mix with the common class,
the common folk, yet the whole ideaof getting outside the building.
Getting out there, discoveringthings firsthand is so important.
And there was a really important part youmentioned in the book you said, according

(12:10):
to Edgar Dale, the American educator, weremember only 20% of what we hear, but
80% of what we personally experience.
And I thought that was soimportant that for innovators.
When we see that opportunity,we're tuned into opportunities and
we communicate it back, it stilldoesn't hit home to so many people.

(12:32):
So that metaphor is so, so importantwhere the everything builds
on each other inside the book
. You're right.
It's not just hearing somethingor reading something in the email.
You actually gonna need to feelit and own it and process it.
, And people do that indifferent ways actually.
And you know, again,that's back to diversity.
people need a conversation, somepeople need some time to think,
some people need to reflect.

(12:54):
let's embrace all the differentways of thinking to be at our best.
Next up is summer and here yousay summer is a time when the
hive is working at full capacity.
Wild meadows hum tothe sound of busy bees.
Trees such as Lime andAcacia are in full bloom.
Unfortunately, the rape seed as well.
You might share with us why rape seed'ssuch a problem and a colony of bees may

(13:17):
peak at over 30,000 individual membersall working as one macro organism.
A new queen may be reared and a colonymay be also reproduced by forming a swarm.
Inside organizations.
Meanwhile, we may be halfway through anannual plan, new products may be launched
and key milestones should have been met.

(13:37):
It is also a time for summervacation and reflection.
So you start off summer with the ideaof productivity and to be busy as it be.
And one interesting anecdote to sparkyou off here, you say, to create
a single 500 gram jar of honey.
Bees will have collectivelyvisited 2 million flowers.

(14:00):
They'll have flown 88,000 kilometers andvisited up to 100 flowers in a single day.
A strong bee colony can fly the equivalentdistance from the earth to the moon.
Every day.
Bees live their lives at a fast pace,and in summer, that's only about 34 days,
so it's such an important setup for us.

(14:21):
And how we live as busy as beesand see it as a virtue when
sometimes we need to reflect.
Is it.
Yeah, so first of all the book is usingthe bees as a interesting metaphor.
And I'm saying let's not be like bees.
Let's learn from them.
Let's not be like them.
And here's a good example.

(14:42):
You know the bees do.
They lead a very intense life.
That's like 34 days approximatelyin the summer, and then that's it.
Bang, they're out like a light, you know?
It's a, it's a full, full all ornothing burn and then they're gone.
That's one B'S life.
And, but I'm noticing with all clientsand at work and all organizations,

(15:03):
busyness is becoming a badge of honor.
You know, at the water fountainor the coffee machine, you know?
How are you?
I'm great.
I'm busy.
Thanks.
I'm doing this.
I'm great.
I'm busy.
I'm going to a conference.
I'm great.
I'm busy and it's busy, busy, busy.
What I would love to hear ispeople to say, do you know what?
I've spent the whole day listeningto customers or, you know,

(15:26):
these big problems that we face.
I've got some colleagues together andwe're talking about how we fix them.
Instead of being busy doing moreof the same stuff, I want people
to stop and pause and reflectand think about the bigger stuff
because our competitive advantageis not doing more of the same stuff.

(15:47):
It's, it's about tackling andwrestling with the bigger things, and
that's not just work, that's life.
We all have a responsibilityas good citizens to do this.
And you say, here, we need a mindsetshift that requires letting go of this old
framework that I'm valued for my business.
But the the big challenge as well,Philip, that you see and we all feel is.

(16:11):
That the organization won't be thathappy if you're kind of going, you
were out doing what Philip you, youwere, you, you got time to read all
those emails that were in your inbox.
You, you were reading the whitepaper that somebody sent to you.
Well, for you, Philip, we're gonnaup your work rate here because
you're not working hard enough.
And it's almost that even if youon an individual level want to

(16:34):
change things, the whole systemhas to change the recognition,
the rewards, the way I'm seen.
And I often say this, andI'd love your thoughts on it.
If you were to walk into a CEO of anorganization and they have their boots
up on their table reading a book, you'dbe kind of going, oh, it's well for you.
Worse still if they were doing meditation,but they should be doing those things.

(16:58):
First of all, this is a huge topic, youknow, and actually defining, what, what,
what the work is, is, is a starting point.
You know, is our job to produce more ofthe same things more quickly, or actually
to stop and pause and produce things thatsolve bigger problems in a better way.

(17:19):
And that starts with the chief executiveand I, I do walk into chief executive
offices and have that discussion.
That's my business.
And that's also why we see, forexample, in terms of recruitment.
In Ireland for example, there'sa very active startup scene in
technology and innovation and financeand, , we're seeing brilliant people,
starting brilliant organizations andstarting with a brilliant culture.

(17:42):
And they are hiring the great minds.
And actually for the first time, someof the big organizations are struggling
to keep the talented people becausethe talented people want to work in a
culture where they can be brilliant.
Don't put me in a box and make me,don't put me in a box and make me
do the same thing a bit faster.

(18:03):
But you're right.
It's a massive, we are in the middle ofa massive shift at the moment, a bit like
the industrial revolution 150 years ago.
We are in the middle of a shiftright now, and organizations can't
keep working the same old way.
One of the things I loved in the book,and I'd love you to share the B story
here, is chapter five's on continuouslearning and it's the job mobility of a

(18:26):
bee and to that point about life is short.
That many of us, theold idea of find a job.
Stay in that job for 20, 30,40 years, get the gold watch.
Those days are over.
We'll have much more job mobility in,particular, the coming generations.
And now with ai, that'sgonna even be on speed.

(18:48):
So as a result, we need to take aleaf out of the bees life and how
they actually have job mobility.
I'd love you to share theentire career path of a b.
so the average life expectancy of a beein the summer is, is as we keep saying, 34
days approximately when they first hatch.

(19:09):
They first, they're hatched as fullyfunctioning adults and they are trained
to be a nurse bee and they're trained bythe previous bees who've just done that
job, and they're trained to be a nurse beeto look after the larvae themselves where
they just hatched and they are trainedto feed and to look after the larvae.
That's a real specialist skill,and they only do that for three

(19:33):
or four days, and then train.
The larva that have just hatched.
And in turn then they are trainedto do a completely different
job, which is to be a builder.
And to be a builder is when theyuse the glands in their mandibles
to secrete wax, to build thosebeautiful, perfect hexagonal things.
And they repair the hive and also, butthey build those beautiful sided cells.

(19:58):
very different skill, but theyfocus on that job a hundred percent.
That's what they do night and daybefore being trained to do the next job.
, And they become, their job is to feed thequeen is to feed the larvae, is to look
at protection, and then they graduallywork their way towards the front door.
They don't go outside.
They don't see the front door of thehive until about day 28 and 29, and

(20:21):
that's when they become security guards.
They, they, again, a very differentskill and they're security
guards and they're welcoming thebees back with a waggle dance.
And then they only fly and foragefor pollen and nectar for the last
three to four days of their life.
Now, that's what the beesdo in the discussion.
In the book, what we talk aboutis doing the job that you are

(20:44):
doing now, a hundred percent.
Throw yourself in, learn, train,practice, and train other people.
Be a mentor, be a coach, be a leader.
So do that job and do it really well andkeep thinking about what your next job
is going to be and in working life today.
The whole kind of linear, vertical careerladder doesn't really exist anymore.

(21:07):
And what we're encouraging in the bookis for people to, they are responsible.
You are responsible for yourown career, not your boss, not
your company, not the industry.
You are responsible for your career.
moving, keep learning, keep growing.
Keep looking at what gaps there are.
Keep looking at what you aregood at and what you love doing.
Keep noticing what you areterrible at and either.

(21:29):
Avoid it or train yourself,but , keep thinking.
Be active in what you are doing in yourlife and in your career, and it's not
an old linear model where you sit ona conveyor belt and after three years
you are promoted to the next level, etcetera, because those days have gone.
Again, a shift needed is the realize give.
People, time to learn on the job, tomaybe mentor, as you say, teach the next

(21:54):
level, et cetera, so you can actuallymove up on, have job mobility yourself.
But I loved what you said in the book.
You talked about the hives.
You said throughout the.
Life of a bee, all individualsperform all the main functions
within a hive in case there's acrisis, maybe the hive is damaged
and the honey cells need rebuilding.
The worker bees can be reallocatedto specific roles at short notice

(22:17):
to serve the needs of the colony.
I thought that was reallyimportant because again.
The, when you need , a capabilityon a personal level and a crisis
hits and you don't have it, it'stoo late to have that capability.
But if you're of this mindset ofcontinually developing yourself, building
capabilities before you need it, you'regonna be in the right place for when.

(22:40):
The crisis happens.
And I don't mean a crisis in anegative sense, but something's
gonna happen and it always happens.
But very few people have taken actionbefore they need to take that action.
And it's something you talkabout in the book as well.
Many leaders you've worked with maybe maderedundant, maybe they lose their job and
they didn't see it coming in many cases.

(23:01):
And they have an expectationthat somebody owes them something
and they certainly don't.
yeah.
It's our responsibility and you know,we are accountable for our own career.
Of it.
Let's, let's do, let'sfind what we love and.
I mentioned about the rape seed andessentially the idea of a monoculture.

(23:23):
, And as you know, I wrote an articleand I quoted you in that article,
'cause I learned this from you.
Let's share what happens therebecause I felt it was a nice
parallel for what happens.
On a skill level, if I have a monocultureof only a certain amount of skills,
and then there's some change in theenvironment I'm left wanting, but

(23:44):
the same is the same for bees that ifthey only focus on one type of pollen,
Yeah,
that that is a negative thing.
it all comes back to diversity.
I just a comment.
Those beautiful flo, the beautiful,great big fields of yellow flowers
on a hot sunter, they look great.
You know, and, and the kind of, it'snot actually a natural thing, but

(24:09):
the quality of the honey is terrible.
It ha technically it's very shortchain sugar and the sugar and
the honey's actually really thickand sticky and it crystallizes
and it doesn't taste very nice.
So while it looks shiny and it lookslovely , and the bees get a bit drunk.
Going for it.
just not the right thing, you know?
Or if fashion's changed, , if we nolonger as a product, we no longer

(24:30):
need , that type of, of oil that comesfrom that crop, there's nothing left.
And we all need to be flexibleand diverse in our skills.
For those of you who are joiningus on YouTube, for those of you
can see us, I'm gonna share.
A diagram from the book where Philipshares the T shape model, which is
more relevant than ever before, andagain speaks to this idea of the

(24:54):
multifaceted multi-skilled bees.
But I'm gonna share it on thescreen here, Philip, and I'd love
you to take us through it again.
Let's have a little bit of empathyfor those people who are only
listening to us and will describethe model as we speak through it.
Yeah.
Aidan, thank you for, for bringingthis alive and sharing it.
If you're just listening, I'm gonnasay in the old days, and the old days

(25:17):
might be yesterday, but in the olddays in our careers sometimes we were
encouraged to specialize very early.
And to go deep into one aspect.
Lemme just pick something.
Let's say patent law orcompliance or safety or, or
quality assurance or something.
That's great.

(25:38):
That's great.
You know, be an expert in that fieldand keep looking left and right.
Keep looking across an organization.
And so the vertical part of a t is thein-depth knowledge in, in a specialty.
The horizontal bar of the Trepresents stretching your wings
across a whole organization.
So yes, understand one particulararea of the business very well and

(26:01):
become a subject matter expert.
We need subject matter experts and.
With that horizontal thing, weneed people that can connect
all those different pieces.
We need people that can cross boundaries.
We need people that can understandthe supply chain from the
beginning all the way to the end.
We need to understand, we need tohave people who understand what

(26:22):
customers need, as well as how theresearch and development process works.
So this visual and this part of thechapter is encouraging people to think.
How they can keep adding valueand keep making sure they are
essential to an organization or.
Fantastic, and I'm gonna sharethat in the show notes as well.

(26:43):
It's brilliant, andagain, it's in the book.
And again, a reminder, I have a copy ofthat book up for grabs for those people
who subscribed to our, our Substack.
Chapter six is decision making and boy,are we in a time where we need to have
proper decision making in organizations.
I'd love you to share some of theexamples of the bees again, because I
loved what you talked about from a beep.

(27:05):
B Life here.
You said firstly about how the waythe Hive decides and how do they,
how and what on about what to donext and how they spawn a new queen.
I'd love you to share these things.
This is a fascinating topic.
First of all, you're right, decisions.
Actually, life is just a function oflots of decisions, but not all decisions

(27:30):
need to be taken in the same way.
And the real learning from the chapteris at work in life, let's think
about how we are taking decisionsand then take the decisions better.
You, you can't just wade in and,and you not All decisions are equal.
We need to understand the process.
It's good decision making in order tobe more efficient and more effective.

(27:53):
But let's look at what the bees do now.
A beehive grows by swarming.
Now, essentially in May you might get asingle beehive, but they grow by dividing.
So for example, if a, ifa, a queen is getting old.
bees sense this and theyproduce a new queen.

(28:13):
And then you've got two queens andone queen will stay in the old hive
and one queen will fly to a newhive and that's called a bee swarm.
And you might have, if you'veseen a bee swarm, it's quite
an amazing thing I'll tell youabout, that's how a beehive grows.
That's how it reproduces.
Choosing the site of a new hiveis a life or death decision.

(28:33):
If they get it wrong, they all die.
It's, it's a big.
Enterprise wide decision.
And first of all, they havea good process for this.
So they have lots of scout Bsgo out and look for a new site.
So one B will come back from site Aand one come back from site B. They've
not been to each other's site, sofirst of all, they're just coming back

(28:55):
with their data and a bit like thewaggle dance, each bee will tell its
story with a level of energy and alevel of clarity, and then other bees
will go and take a second opinion.
some BS will go to site A and someother Bs will go to site B and
they'll come back and they willgather a critical mass of data.
And then some BS who said, I've gotthe best idea, will go, actually, I

(29:19):
don't think I have got the best idea.
I think site A is a better idea.
Let me go and look at that one.
So eventually all the differentresearch arms come back and they
start to look at all the dataand they go, do you know what?
We've narrowed it down to two.
Bees will go and come back from moreopinions, but what they're doing is
very, very efficiently collecting dataand working out what the data means.

(29:44):
30,000 bees in a hiveare watching this and.
At this point, they're still in thediscovery phase, but when they've
got enough data, they take onedecision and they say, we are gonna
go to a new home, which I've neverbeen to, but I trust my colleagues.
We are gonna go to site A and30,000 BS will all align behind

(30:07):
a single decision and they mighthave been disagreeing before then.
But they align behind a singledecision and they all fly off together.
And the, and the majority havenever been there, but they are
trusting their colleagues whohave done the right due diligence.
And it's a process.
It takes, it takes three or four daysto take this decision, and then they
take one decision and they all set off.

(30:30):
And that's, that's.
That's how they collect their dataand take a single decision and have
consensus at a very high success rate.
It, it, it's taken actually of thousandsof years of evolution to get this right.
Now, if we come to organizations.
We take decisions all day, every day,and particularly to leadership team

(30:51):
level or or group decision making.
It's actually very difficult andsome decisions are really easy,
and maybe it's the boss's decision.
Great.
the boss is gonna choose where to havethe Christmas party, let's not discuss it.
It's the boss's decision.
He takes decision.
Job done.
Two minutes.
Thank you.
If it's a decisionthat's more complicated.

(31:13):
Take time to understand how you aregoing to a decision and where you
gonna get the data, and how you gonnadisagree, and how you gonna prove
it and who you're gonna consult.
And one big way of makinga decision is by consensus.
Does everyone need to agree?
Maybe they don't.
Another model is decisionmaking by consent.

(31:35):
Let's trust two people to go out and doa pilot study a bit like the bees did.
Let's trust two of our teams to goand do some research and to come
back with a recommendation, and thenwe'll comment on the recommendation.
But these are all different ways of takingdecisions, there's another metaphor.
I'm adding more metaphors.
Sharpen your ax before cutting downthe tree and spend time as a leadership

(31:57):
team being transparent and publicabout how you are gonna take a decision
and then let everyone do their bestwork to help make that decision.
I don't see that enough at work today.
I loved the how thisechoes what Amazon did.
So in Jeffthey had disagreeand commit which is.

(32:18):
To that exact point where, youknow, I, I was thinking of the bees
flying along and like me, and meand you disagree with the new site.
And we're bi we're, we're bitter.
And we, we, we, we c wecollect all the other bees.
We have a few other bees together andwe're like going, Hey, we're the guys
who actually disagree with this hive.
What do you think?
Or something goes wrong with thenew hive and we start moaning

(32:41):
about it , as a bunch of bees.
But , I wanted to share somethingon the swarm, and this is just from
a. Human perspective that when yousee a swarm, people automatically
see it as a negative thing.
Oh, bees are swarming.
And what you say here is that infact, actually , they've filled up
with honey to make that journey.
'cause it's a lifethreatening journey as well.

(33:02):
I'd love you to share a little bitabout this because you even shared some
of the stories where, for example, youended up on the wing of an airplane.
Let's share this because it's importantto understand what's going on here.
Yeah.
But first of all, if,if ever you've seen it.
A swarm of bees in action.
It's amazing.
It's, it could be 30, 40,000 bees allflying, like in a very tight knit in

(33:26):
a tight knit group to a destination.
It's noisy.
I mean, it's noisy like a jet engine.
, You can hear it a long way away,and it, it sounds terrifying.
The truth is the bees arevery fixed on a purpose.
They need to get safely to their new home.
That's all they're gonna do.
And in order to get there,they've eaten all their honey.

(33:47):
A hive, a hive weather.
They take all the honeyand they are full of honey.
They're not gonna sting you.
It's like having a bigSunday roast dinner.
They've eaten all their honey.
They're on a mission.
They're gonna go to their new home.
They might fly past a school oryour house, or you, and you might.
Just watch it.
It's truly amazing.
They're not gonna sting you.
They're not frightening.

(34:07):
That's the first thing, and that's kind ofcounterintuitive, but just trust the bees.
The second thing is they leavethe hive and they often need to
settle somewhere at the end of theday just to regroup and they might
settle somewhere and then settle offthe next day to their final home.
This is very, very common.
As a beekeeper, it's really exciting.

(34:27):
'cause if you can find a swarm ofbees in that process, perhaps you
could intervene and capture them andput them in a box and give them a
lovely new home that would help them.
And I got a call one morningat six o'clock in the morning,
from the local airport.
Philip, Philip come quickly.
There's a swarm of bees on the wingof a Boeing 7, 3 7 about to take off.

(34:49):
what happened is the bees landed theevening before on the sunny side as the
sun was setting and it was warm and they,they landed on the joint between the
fuselage and the wing and they're justlike, a bit like a football, you know,
a little ball, a ball of 50,000 bees.
And they rested in the sun at the endof the day, and they were safe there.

(35:10):
Next morning the pilot wantedto take off and there was 122
people on board and it was cold.
They were in the shade andthey were too cold to fly.
And the pilot has to do hisvisual checks of the plane.
And the pilot said, I'm notallowed to take off with a,
with something on the wing.
We need to get this be.

(35:30):
Swarm off.
So I was called and I drove to theairport and I got lifted up with a
cherry picker with a cardboard box and Ijust scooped them into the box and took
them away and I gave them a new home.
But if you do see a swarm, just watch it.
It's beautiful.
I actually recently had thishappen to me where there was a

(35:52):
bee In the back garden in my home.
And he was just on the ground and theysometimes look like they're dead, but
they're actually, they need to metabolize.
And I just, I didn't have, Ididn't give him sugar water.
I actually gave him electrolytewater it on, on a piece of tissue.
A piece of like bounty tissue,a piece of absorbent tissue.
And he just sat on a, anawful flu as a result of that.

(36:14):
And I'd love you to share this 'causeit's an important thing to see.
A lot of people, particularly urbanpeople that live in urban areas or
just don't know this, that they canactually help the bee and reignite
it and help it go on and often andoftentimes actually save its life.
Culturally, we are scared of bees.
There's a whole thing about the buzzingthe noise, and the black and yellow is a

(36:35):
warning sign of black and yellow stripes.
But actually, bees need our help.
And what you've justdescribed is very common.
At the end of the summer, bees are tiredand they're flown a long way from their
hive to get the sugar and the pollen, andthey're loaded up and they're carrying the
pollen on their legs, and they're carryingthe, it might be sticking all over the

(36:55):
body and they have to fly back again.
To their home and often they need torest and they need to, first of all,
they need some sunshine to, to warm up.
They do need energy fromthe sun to warm them up.
But if it's, a cold day, it's theyneed to recharge and sometimes they
need a bit of love and some sugar,and you can give them electrolyte

(37:17):
water or you can give them not honey.
Actually, honey's not good.
It might not be their own honey,but give them a bit of water with
sugar in on a teaspoon and youcan, they're not gonna sting you.
, That's the last thing they're gonna do.
They're just tired.
You can pick them up with a little fingerand them next to some water they need
and some sugar, and they'll just spenda little bit of time recharging and then

(37:40):
they'll be off safely back to their hive.
Yeah, it's a lovely thing to do.
I taught my kids to do it as well,so we're onto autumn, and Autumn
begins at this STA stage whereit's coming to the end of the hive.
They're preparing for thecold months of winter.
Honey stores are matured and sealed.
Precious resources areconserved, and I mentioned this.

(38:01):
Those male drones, they're no longeruseful and they're expelled from the hive.
Some would say they were never usefulin the first place, but let's share
firstly, how a male drone is createdand then what their purpose is, and
then obviously what their unfortunateend is at the end of their lifespan.
I can see the headline that might comefrom this recording that, male, actually

(38:25):
title homicide is often being used again.
Let's go back to roles andresponsibilities and diversity.
So 95% of the bees in a hiveare female worker bees, and
they do seven different jobs.
We've talked about that.
The small minority, only 5% are male bees.

(38:46):
And the male bees are a bit bigger andthey've got a bit bulkier and they've
got this great big bulging eyes andtheir wings are bigger and they make
a droning noise, a very differentnoise, and they're called drones.
That's the noise they make.
And that's the name.
It's a male drone andthat's a small percent.
And.
It is what it is, it's nature.
Their only job is tohave sex with the queen.

(39:08):
Once what they do, it might be theirown queen or they fly and they might be
looking at the beginning of spring for aqueen, a virgin queen from another hive.
When she does her honeymoon flight,she will actually circle around an
orchard and males from other hiveswill go and fertilize the queen.

(39:28):
That's their job.
That's all they do.
And they can't even feed themselves.
So they rely entirely on the female workerbees to feed them and look after them.
That's their life, that's their job.
But the hard truth is , that their jobis important for a few weeks of the year
in spring after then the queen's busy.

(39:52):
The queen ain't going anywhere else.
It's her job to lay eggs every dayin, day out, a thousand days a day.
when we get to end of July, August,September, the hive doesn't need any more
males and they are a drain on resources.
And as they're getting ready for winter,every mouth counts and the female
bees go, we don't need you anymore.

(40:13):
I'm gonna stop feeding you.
Or if resources are really tight andit's cold or something, , the female
peers will actively kill the malesand they push them out the front door.
And as a beekeeper,it's really interesting.
This time of year you can see males beingpushed out the door dead, dead, dead.
And, and you can tell what'shappening inside by the dead
bodies coming out the front door.

(40:35):
And know, we have a bit of fun with this.
At work, make sure you are useful allyear round and keep, don't rely on
one skill to get you through life.
Keep learning, keep training, keepgrowing, keep developing, keep noticing.
And look, we've got AI coming, you know.
AI is here.
So think about what does that meanfor you and your career and the

(40:58):
value to, to your job, the value toyour company, the value to society.
Keep moving, keep thinking, keeplearning, or else you're gonna get
stung and get pushed out the front door.
And a, a grateful bird willtake you away, as you say.
Yeah.
So next up is chapter seven.
Which is teamwork and I thought we'dshare here, particularly the honey harvest

(41:19):
lesson and then the extra dependent andinterdependent teams in organizations.
I thought that was a nicelittle lesson from this chapter.
Everything we do in life, nearlyeverything is with other people.
You know, we work as teams, so team teamsor teaming is a really important skill.

(41:41):
And again, the lesson in thebook is to think harder about
how we're working as teams.
Now I have a dear colleague calledDave Ksby, who's written a book
about different types of teams.
And in English we only have, Englishis not very good for some things.
We only have one word for hot,weather, hot food, hot things.

(42:02):
We just have one word for hot.
We only have one word for teams team.
But Dave's research and all the work thatwe do with organizations says that there
are two very different types of teams.
So let's think about a soccer team.
First of all a soccer team has agoalkeeper, a winger, a striker, a

(42:23):
defender, and you need all of those.
And if you don't have yourgoalkeeper, you're stuck.
You know, there's a massive gap if youdon't have a winger, if you don't have
a striker, if you don't have defense.
So therefore, that is a teamwhere they are interdependent.
They rely on each other, and thereare lots of teams that work like that.
The second type of team we callextra dependents because, and

(42:47):
I'll just describe what they are.
Like for example, in an organization,let's say you get HR business partners,
you might get 10 HR business partnersworking in 10 parts of the business.
And as a team are 10 similar peopledoing similar jobs, they do their work.

(43:09):
With their teams.
So they go out to work, if you like,and then come back to their home base.
And in actual fact, as anorganization, it doesn't matter
whether there's two of them or 22.
It's not like a soccer team where you needevery individual skill that's different.
In an extra dependent team, canlearn together and grow together and
support each other, and then you goand do your work in the organization

(43:33):
and then you come back again.
It might be a team ofpriests across the county.
It might be a team of a team of referees.
Or actually you could havea team goalkeepers and you
can learn from each other.
And that's the key thing.
You're not competing.
You can all be betterby learning together.
And our research organizationsoften have 50% of one type

(43:56):
of team and 50% of the other.
But we still use, we only have one word,and they're two different leadership
mindsets, two different sets of skills.
, .We're onto now chapter eight, which is change and diversity, but in particular
responding to the environment.
And I thought it was lovelyto share the idea of.
Migrant bees.

(44:17):
And this as a, a nice metaphor that,'cause I thought about how oftentimes
we'll ship maybe Philip off to theMiddle East to work with a new client
over there and it doesn't alwayswork because you have to acclimatize,
et cetera, like the migrant bees.
it's not just, it's actuallyeverything and everything in life.

(44:38):
We need to use all of our sensorsjust to understand a little bit
better about what is happening.
We've got five sensors, let's use them.
If you look at a beehive, first ofall, actually first, as you approach
a beehive, first of all, you canhear if they're stressed or not.
Let's say a storm is coming on asu on this beautiful summer's day.

(45:02):
Blue sky, but a storm might beon its way and we can't see that.
But the bees can sense to the atmosphericpressure change and they know before
we do that a storm is coming thenotes of that hum, that buzz changes
and it goes up an ve if you justlisten, you can hear if the're happy,
you can hear if they're stressed.
The stressed is a higher pitchnoise, so if they're stressed,

(45:24):
don't put your hand in.
You can smell if they're stressed.
they're happy, they're making honey, itsmells sweet coming out the front door.
If they're stressed, they make propolis,which is a very bitter protein.
It's like a bee glute to protect the hive.
If you smell propolis,don't put your hand in.
You can see if they're agitated, you know?

(45:45):
So just really back into life.
If you need to do something with ateam or change something or introduce
something new, gonna trigger a response.
And just think a little bit harderabout, is the timing right or what is
happening, or what is that response?
You know, just because peoplefold their arms and don't say
anything doesn't mean they agree.

(46:07):
So, use your super, your humansuperpowers of listening and
noticing and sensing what is goingon, and everything will be better.
And as you share in chapter nine,which is sensing the system, you
can avoid being stung that way.
Let's share your own firsthand experienceof this and how your son was wise.

(46:28):
As well where he discouraged you fromtaking a little peak at the hive.
Yeah, our, our are clever, aren't they?
Of course I make many mistakes.
Beekeeping.
I, I've been a beginner beekeeperfor 20 years, and the more
I learn, the more I learn.
I have more to learn.
So I'm always learning and I make many,many mistakes and I get stung a lot.

(46:52):
And one day I was out with my sonand I said, Louie, look, I'm just
gonna have a look at the bees.
And if the bees are happy, you cansee smell, you can see, you can sense.
If the bees are happy,you don't need gloves.
You don't need a veil.
You can take the lid off, youcan scoot them up with your hands
and you're not gonna get stung.
And one day I rushed in, I happenedto have shorts and a t-shirt and

(47:13):
a pair of flip flops, and I justwanted to have a look inside.
And there was a storm coming, whichI couldn't see, but the bees knew
and I got stuck and I got stung once.
And if you get stung once the,the, the security bees can
smell that you've been stung.
And the other security bees come afteryou and I ran down the street and I had

(47:34):
to take off my t-shirt I had bees insidemy T-shirt and I had my flip flops on
and I was running down the street awayfrom these security bees and my son was
saying, Papa, Papa, I told you, I toldyou to listen to the, he was right.
And Phil, tell me, tellus, do, do they know you?

(47:54):
So you're the beekeeper,do they, do they know you?
Do they get used to your smellor are you always just that guy
who shows up every so often?
I.
There's a whole load of research.
There's actually a new research paper outtoday about bees being able to recognize
faces and, and, and there's some love.
I dunno if you know the phrase,lovely, lovely old folklore

(48:17):
about tell it to the bees.
Have you heard this?
So.
Again, it's an old poems and thingswhere if a family member dies or you
know, you have to go and tell the bees.
And actually what, what this is aboutis about you build a connection with
the bees, and the bees do recognize you.
And by actually by talking tothe bees, you release carbon

(48:39):
dioxide that the bees recognize.
And there is a thing aboutjust being with the bees.
The bees get to know you,they get to recognize you.
They get to sense you whether,whether to be afraid of you or not.
So this whole thing about talking to thebees is important, but also if you talk
to bees, you relax and you calm down andyou take a deep breath and you slow down.

(49:00):
You're not just gonna wade in,which is the mistake I often make.
Just take your time and slowdown and work with the system.
So the bees do recognize you apparently,they do kind of also sense how you are.
And then they, if you are stressed,the bees can tell you're stressed
and everyone gets stressed, is.
Yeah, I'm sure you, you, you emitan energy and they read the energy

(49:22):
and, and vice versa as well.
But so we're, we're in winter.
You mentioned about this time wherethere's a shift from thriving to
survival and it, the, the male droneshave reached, have faced their harsh
reality, which is homicide, but atthe, as the temperature drops at the
beginning of the winter, there's only20,000 bees left to keep the queen warm.

(49:47):
I'd love you to share a little bit what'sgoing on here at this point in the hive.
This is amazing.
We kept saying at the beginningof the year, bees have an
average lifespan of 34 days.
That's when they're busy, busy.
That's when they are busy asbees foraging, harvesting.
But about as we approach autumn,the bees actually change.

(50:07):
They kind of change roles that thewhat the hive needs is different.
And the bee, the queen beeneeds to survive until the first
flowers come back in March.
And at the beginning you saidthat's the black thorn bush.
In Europe, it's the white hedgerowthat we see, the white hedgerow flowers
that we see and bees In the summer.

(50:30):
A beehive is an organism thatmight be five miles wide.
You know, if you think about howit's working in all the different
directions, it's, it's an organ,it's an organism about five miles,
five kilometers in diameter.
the winter, it's the size of a smallfootball because that's the ball of
bees, and their job is just to keep thequeen fed and warm through to the winter.

(50:53):
So it's a different phase of life.
, As Seneca said, every new beginningis another new beginnings end.
Yeah,
So we're at chapter 11, which is NewBeginnings, which is preparing the hive,
and as you say, it's one of your favoriteclosing tasks at this time of year is two.
Recycle the old bees comb.

(51:14):
Tell us about this and tell uswhat the metaphor is then for
the organization and for life.
yeah.
So we're talking about different phasesand, and actually, yes, you're right.
You know, old.
Old frames of, you know, when you'retaking the honey off and old frames
and, and actually you can melt itdown and make caKyndryles or just,
you know, but you need to the yearwell, you need to kind of tidy up and

(51:34):
fix things and, and put them away.
And, and actually you need to takesome time to learn and reflect
what worked well this year and, andwhat do I need to learn next year.
So it's an ending, it's a closure.
And Chapter 10 is all about closing.
Well, if we talk about work for a moment.
I think we are great at starting things.

(51:55):
start a new job, you get flowersor, and a card or a welcome or
a, a buddy to show you around.
If you, if you start a new project,you might have a new logo or a
fanfare or a sponsor starting.
Things we're good atin the Western society.
We're good at starting things.
It's my experience at work.
We're not very good at closing things.

(52:17):
Actually if, look, look, look,we all get made redundant.
Some at some point.
If you get made redundant,how good is your clothes?
People dunno what to say.
People don't know what to say to you.
People dunno how to takeon your projects, you know?
That's one thing.
Another thing is projects.
You know, some projects, some initiativesthat start in January with a big fanfare.

(52:38):
Sometimes they fail or sometimesthey're no longer important,
are they closed properly?
It's my kind of mission is to helporganizations close things better, and
if you can close things better, you cancreate more space for new things to grow.
Like the Seneca quote.

(52:58):
And, and otherwise, it's a bitlike having too many apps open on
your, on your browser, you know,you can't have too many things.
Open, open, open, and keep opening more.
You need to close things well, and Ireally, in life, I want people to pay
more attention to closing things better.
It will help everybody.
Which , leads us to the close,which is chapter 12, which is all

(53:19):
about purpose and as you say here.
The purpose for the bees is quite obvious,but the purpose for us, not so obvious
because we very rarely take that time.
We mentioned earlier on that bootsup on the desk, thinking about the
future, thinking about the present.
Even thinking about the past.
We very rarely do this as a societyand definitely not in the workplace.

(53:42):
Look, we are, we are here on this earth.
You know, let's make the bestcontribution we can and actually at
work, that also means not just, know,being paid and doing the work nine
to five or whatever it is these days.
Actually let's, let's think a bit harder.
You know, what do I love?
What am I good at?
What's my superpower?

(54:03):
What's my contribution to the world?
How can I mentor people?
How can I coach people?
How can I sponsor otherpeople to learn and to grow?
And this is actually really funand it's, you're right, but it's
something we do very often andI'm really encouraging people to
have better quality conversations.
Talk to a friend, talk toyour colleagues over dinner.

(54:26):
Think about what, what it is you're doing.
Don't get stuck in something and thenget surprised if you get made redundant.
You know, let's, let's think aboutwhat we love and what we wanna do this
Beautiful.
way to end the book.
It is.
I, I'd love if you would, Philip, read usas a final piece of the book, the last B

(54:48):
by Brian Bilston as a sign off as you do.
I think it'd be a lovely thingto do if you're up for it.
I, I'm, I'm pretty sure you probablydon't know it off by heart, but
I'd love you to give us a quickrendition to close today's episode.
Yeah, there we are.
So I'm actually, I'mflicking through the book.
There's a lovely poetcalled Brian Bilston.
I found it page 181, I, I'll read it.

(55:09):
The last B by Brian Bilston,after the last E had us, its
last Uz, the and the utter flies.
what they could.
Up soon, the fields lay air.
Few flowers were left, nature wasbroken, and the planet erected by Ryan

(55:34):
Ston and all the bees are missing.
And that's what you know,actually we know full well.
The bees are responsible for 70, forpollinating 70% of the food that we eat.
If there's no bees.
Einstein said, it's the beginningof the end of the universe.
And this is a, a lovely poem byBrian Vil that says, if we're

(55:56):
missing bees, don't make sense.
Absolutely, and it's one of the reasonswhy I recommend buying a copy of the book.
It's a lovely book, and there'sfor if you're a leadership coach,
if you're working in any type oforganizational development, if you're
looking to develop yourself, it's gotlovely reflections for you as well.
Lows and models sharedin the book as well.

(56:17):
It's a beautiful book, Philip, for peoplewho wanna find you, find out more about
your work, where can they find you?
Thank you Aidan.
First of all, yeah, the bookBe Wise, 12 Leadership Lessons
From A Busy Hive is available onAmazon and all, all bookstores.
You can walk into a bookshop and order it.
You can order it online.
It's, it exists.
If you want to learn more, there'sa website called Be Wise Book.

(56:42):
It's all one word.
Be wise book.com.
Have a look in there and you'lllearn more about the book.
And then in there you'll learn about me.
I run a company all acrossEurope called hive logic.com.
That's hive hyphen logic.
And in there you can see how we usethe metaphor or the bees to help
organizations, individuals, andleaders and teams on a daily basis.

(57:05):
Aidan, thank you.
Author of Be Wise's 12 LeadershipLessons from a Busy Beehive.
Philip Atkinson, thank you for joining us.
Thank you.
Once again, thank you to our sponsorKyndryl, who run and reimagine the
technology systems that drive advantagefor the world's leading businesses.
With a unique blend of AI poweredconsulting, built on unmatched managed

(57:27):
service capability, Kyndryl helps leadersharness the power of technology for
smarter decisions, faster innovation,and lasting competitive edge.
You can find out more about

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