July 12, 2024 • 60 mins
The Power of Communication: Insights from Sally Susman, Author of 'Breaking Through'
In this episode, Aiden welcomes Sally Susman, author of 'Breaking Through: Communicating to Open Minds, Move Hearts, and Change the World' to discuss the vital role of communication in professional and personal settings. Sally shares insights from her extensive career, including her experiences working with top leaders at Pfizer, Estee Lauder, and American Express. The discussion explores the misconception of communication as a soft skill, the importance of authentic outreach, the power of gratitude, and Susman's innovative approaches during the COVID-19 pandemic. Sally also emphasises curiosity, creativity, and intentionality as key components for effective communication. Throughout the episode, real-life anecdotes and practical advice offer listeners valuable lessons on leadership and connection.
00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:39 The Importance of Communication
03:24 Lessons from Estee Lauder
06:09 Personal Background and Family Influence
08:51 The Power of Gratitude
13:15 Perfecting Your Pitch
23:02 Humour in the Workplace
29:36 Challenges at Pfizer
32:03 Facing the Biopharma Reputation Challenge
33:37 The Pandemic's Impact and New Leadership
35:02 Albert Bourla's Bold Vision
36:30 Revolutionising Vaccine Development
37:25 The Media's Role in the Journey
38:55 Pfizer's Transformation and Recognition
40:46 Innovative Leadership and Personal Growth
49:30 Curiosity and Creativity in Action
56:47 The Power of Intentionality
58:46 Concluding Thoughts and Inspirations
Find Sally here: https://www.sallysusman.com/media/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Aidan McCullen (00:00):
It's a pleasure to welcome the author of breaking
(00:02):
through, communicating to open minds,move hearts and change the world.
Sally Sussman, welcome to the show.
Sally Susman (00:09):
Thanks, Aiden.
It's great to be here with you.
Aidan McCullen (00:11):
great to have you with us.
I was telling you off air that I hadthe great pleasure to read your book
during my downtime, during my holidays,which is just great because I get to
absorb the book in a different way.
It doesn't feel as pressurized cause Idon't have to balance work and reading
the book as well, I learned so muchYou weave in your own personal story,
(00:32):
you weave in the story of Pfizerbattling against the pandemic to
bring us the vaccine and so much more.
Most particularly, I want to tell ouraudience, Sally imparts so much wisdom
about not only how to be the top of yourgame as a communications professional, but
also how to communicate in general and ithought we'd start with the importance of
(00:55):
communication i pulled a little excerpthere sally that i'd love you to riff on
you say because of the increased scrutinyand elevated stakes communication can
no longer be considered a soft skill.
The ability to lead and drive publicconversation is a rock hard competency.
It tests one's abilities as muchas professional discipline, maybe
(01:17):
more so in a time when publictrust in business, government
and media is at an all time low.
I'd love you to tell us about theimportance of communication, not just
in your role, but for any professionalat any level of the organization.
Sally Susman (01:31):
Oh, thank you so much.
And I, I really have to thankyou for taking time out of
your holiday to read my book.
I'm very grateful for that.
You've landed on probably themost important sentence in the
entire book to get us started.
The fact that I believecommunications is important.
Is mistaken as a soft skill andreally is a rock hard competency.
(01:55):
It's something I learned from supportingnine CEOs over three companies over more
than three decades, working with electedleaders, government officials, and cabinet
secretaries, and what I saw Aiden wasreally that all of those individuals.
(02:15):
are highly competent people.
I mean because you talk to peopleat the top of business, you don't
stumble into the corner office.
People get there because they've workedhard and they have competencies, but
the ones that are the game changers thatreally can shift the paradigm in their
field, whether that's Leonard Lauderat the Estee Lauder companies or Or my
(02:39):
current CEO, Albert Bourla at Pfizer,the ones that are the game changers
are the one who put as much effort intohow they communicate, into practicing
those skills of connection, of thinkingdeeply about what they want to express.
And so I wrote this book to sharethose insights and to encourage
(03:03):
people in leadership positions toreally understand the importance.
I have to say it brings me greatpride that the Harvard Business
Review Press took on this, thisfirst time author because I wanted
it to really be a book as much aboutleadership as about communications.
And I think the, the guidinghand of HBR helped me to do
Aidan McCullen (03:24):
i'm gonna jump around my notes a little bit here because there's
so much in it and particularly your shareso much of your own experience, i have to
say hats off to you for giving awards andall experience of your life and indeed
your experience of being a communicationsprofessional but there was a piece i
wanted to tune into you mentioned thereLauder Lauder, And the humility and the
(03:48):
attention to detail of these leaders,, You write in the book after time with
the American express company, you joinedEstee Lauder companies where you worked
with the Lauder family directly and youtell us here Estee Lauder was a master
communicator and I'd love you to sharethe communication story from this little
(04:08):
piece, telephone, telegraph, tell awoman Where is the law they claimed this
was a key element to her huge success
Sally Susman (04:17):
Right.
I mean, she's the poster girl.
poster woman for some of thecentral ideas in my book.
She knew instinctively that shehad to touch and reach the consumer
in, in very innovative ways.
She was the founder of this company andshe legend is that she started it pretty
(04:42):
much in the bathtub in her apartmentin Queens making the products and then
hand packaging them and delivering them.
And she had no money for advertising.
So she had to do the, The very personalskills of telegraph, telephone, tell
a woman, this is, was her mantra.
(05:04):
And I always thought maybe shewas the first person to go viral
before we knew viral was a thing.
And also to the point that often, authentic outreaches are more meaningful
than just broad scale advertising.
And that was a lesson that Estee learnedby necessity, but one that I think
(05:27):
we see very much today in all kindsof areas, including certainly in the
biopharmaceutical field, that influencervoices come from everywhere, not just
from big, splashy advertising campaigns.
But I love, I have to say, I lovemy time at that company because
they're so innovative and socreative and so committed to their
(05:48):
customers and to their employees.
Aidan McCullen (05:50):
gonna come back the Lauder family and indeed some of the tactics
or skills that you, honed from workingthere including just the very basic thing
i was saying thank you and we'll comeback to that because in the book sally
gives us guidelines of how to be a mastercommunicator in any field but i want
to come back to something yourself so.
You mentioned there Leonard Lauder oneof estes spawn and how he gathered some
(06:17):
skills that are inherent in the companytoday so they carry through to the
company and you too as a mother passon skills in your family but your own
background and your own family had amassive impact on your own mindset and.
What's interesting here is when yousee somebody as successful as you,
(06:37):
with such an illustrious career withsuch great brands of companies, et
cetera, people go, oh, it's wellfor them, et cetera, et cetera.
But what I loved about your story wasthat you reckon your teachers and probably
many of your co students would have.
Voted you least likely to succeedyes you succeeded nonetheless
including so much of the lessonsthat were passed on by your parents,
Sally Susman (07:02):
Yeah.
Well, you did mention the factthat the book is warts and all.
Okay.
And before I turned it intoHBR Press, I shared it with
just a very few trusted people.
family and friends.
I mean, as a fellow author,Aiden, I'm sure you do that.
You have a reading circle of people youtrust to, to help you with your work.
(07:23):
And I remember my mom sayingto me, Sally, this is terrible.
You, you talk about all your mostembarrassing mistakes in this book.
And I do.
And I try to tell them unflinchinglybecause I think it is through the shared
experience of making mistakes and, andstumbling at times that people can learn.
(07:46):
So thank you for saying thatI'm proud to show my warts.
I'm also very fortunate and proud tohave grown up in the family where I did.
My parents were interested in the world.
They had a, passion for civic issues andthey taught my brother and I many things.
(08:07):
We had to bring a, a newsfact to the table every night
at dinner and discuss it.
And this couldn't be a sportsscore or a weather forecast.
It had to be something of theworld and we had to talk about it.
My brother and I thought this wasinhumane, cruel, unfair but it was
(08:28):
actually a great gift Aidan because welearned how to observe the world and
how to process information and how to.
articulate things.
The other gift that my parents gave mewas a practice of writing thank you notes.
And mom was very strict about that.
Nothing, no gift could be enjoyed untilthe thank you note had been written.
(08:51):
I was surprised many years laterto have a conversation with Lauder.
Lauder about pretty much the same thing.
And when I joined the, thecompany, I was new to the industry.
As you mentioned, I came fromfinancial services into personal care.
And Lauder was kind enough to take meby the hand and introduce me to the top
(09:14):
editors across covering the industry.
And I remember very specificallyone, one day, and I tell the
story in the book as well.
Where we went to meet an editor whowas less than gracious, she kept us
waiting, which more importantly waskeeping him waiting because Lauder
Lauder is an icon in the industry.
(09:37):
She didn't give us atremendous amount of time.
She was rude.
She sat behind her desk with her eyes downand then dismissed us shortly thereafter.
And as Lauder and I were Hesaid to me, now, don't forget
to write her a thank you note.
And I was what she was so rude.
(09:59):
And he said, nope, that's how we roll.
And I realized that writingthank you notes was not a
casual affair at the company.
Lauder himself wrote many,he had blue stationary.
It was one of the.
The colors of the brand and everyoneat the company calls it a blue note.
Did you get a blue note to saythank you for this or that?
(10:20):
And I realized that again, before theyhad money for advertising, before they
could spend a lot on splashy incentives.
They took the time to thankthe women who work behind the
counter, their best customers.
And so now I try most mornings to takea moment before I start my day and write
(10:42):
one or two thank you notes looking atmy calendar for, for the day before.
And it's a tremendous practice becauseit gives you a sense of gratitude.
Of the good fortune that you have forthe people that you know, and people
are very touched by it, especially inthe age of texting and tweeting and to
(11:04):
receive a note through the post witha thank you is still very meaningful.
Something I take quite seriously.
So that's why it's almost a wholechapter dedicated to how to write
a thank you note, remembering thatspecific is important to not just say
thanks for having me for dinner, butthanks for hosting me in your home.
(11:25):
And the the, the vegetables fromyour garden were so delicious and my.
was a lovely choice.
The more specific, the better.
Aidan McCullen (11:36):
more time to cover all the communication tenants from the
book but that one about thanks as yousaid it's a huge one and the date i
learned so much from that i pass thaton this is where i say it's so useful
to read a book when i'm on holidays.
I give an example, so I read that storyabout you and this less than gracious
person and I one of the beautifulthings about doing the show is lots
(11:59):
of the content mixes and becomes thismarination of a mindset over a period of
time and one of the things that you getfrom doing the show is huge empathy so.
Empathy for that person who's less thangracious not knowing what's going on
their lives and then i try and passthat on to my kids so something similar
happened where there was somebody elsewhen we were checking in into security
(12:23):
for the airport and she wasn't very niceat all and i smiled and my son said why
are you smiling at her and i said well.
I said, you know what, I just readit in this book that when you smile,
the other person has mirror neurons,they can't but not smile back.
It's really, really hard for them.
And you can unlock them.
And you never know what's
(12:44):
going on in that person's life as well.
So maybe, maybe we'll say seen asI'm on that one, that element of
How you show up to the other personbeing such a key tenant and key
theme that's right the book as well
Sally Susman (12:58):
Absolutely.
I bet that lady smiled back at youtoo from the, the security person.
They
Aidan McCullen (13:04):
my son was surprised i was like yeah it's great
Sally Susman (13:08):
Yeah.
Aidan McCullen (13:09):
them and pass on the lessons sorry to interrupt you,
Sally Susman (13:13):
No, not at all.
I, I have a specific chapter in the bookthat I refer to as Perfecting your pitch.
And I want to be clear to all your, yourlisteners and viewers that I'm not talking
about the dreaded elevator pitch or acold call where you're pitching an idea,
maybe to a cynical journalist, but aquality, a quality of being in the world.
(13:39):
So I tell the story, this one fromAmerican express and it, it followed
9 11, which here in New York andthroughout the United States was a.
Unforgettable, horrible day.
And the American Express headquartersare right down at the World Trade
Center where the, the terrorist actionhappened and the Twin Towers came down.
(14:03):
Ken Chenault was a new CEO, had justbeen a CEO for a couple of months, who
was actually out on the West Coast ofthe United States meeting with some
people in one of the call centers.
When the tragedy struck and heknew he needed to get back to the
headquarters in New York, had todrive across the country because
(14:24):
there were no planes flying for days.
And Ken had a leader'sinstinct that he needed to get
people together in one place.
So they rented out Madison SquareGarden, which is huge and invited all
the employees from the tri state area.
So New York, New Jersey,Connecticut to come together.
(14:46):
And of course Ken's staff prepareda speech for him to give, which
he didn't give that speech.
He spoke from the heart.
He waited into the audience to touch thepeople whose lives had been impacted.
He learned the names of the employeeswho had perished in the tragedy.
(15:09):
And most importantly, he set a toneand the tone was, That American
Express's best days, that New YorkCity's best days would be ahead of it.
And I write about that, and itgoes right back to your story
and your education with your son.
That how we choose to showup is so important at, at,
(15:32):
at really important moments.
And also at everyday moments.
Greeting people by their name.
Saying hello just these simplethings make such a huge difference.
And if I turn up in someplace that's veryaggressive, like maybe a, pressurizing
(15:55):
journalist or a committee hearingin front of a, a, tough committee,
If you start by a smile kindness inyour voice, thank them for having
you, it can just take that edge out.
And I think that's so important.
Aidan McCullen (16:11):
that chapter on pitch you beat me to it because i thought it
was such an important chapter in everyaspect so whether it's for a regular
listener to the show who's workinginnovation pitching an idea, Or actually
calling something out like you mentionedbefore you've had amy edmonson in.
What's your company to talk aboutpsychological safety cause you want
(16:32):
people to be have the psychologicalsafety to call things out but one
of the things you call out was theunfortunate example of hillary.
Clinton's failed candidacy andhow she got the pitch wrong.
And this is one of the things youdetected from your experience.
And I thought we'd just juxtaposethe American express experience with
Hillary Clinton's experience and justhow subtle the difference is, but what
(16:57):
a dramatic impact that it can have.
Sally Susman (17:01):
Absolutely.
And I first must say that I aman admirer of Hillary Clinton.
I think she was a great secretaryof state, a wonderful Senator.
I believe she would have been a verygood president, but unfortunately
her campaign did not go well.
And I thought a lot about it, Aiden.
(17:21):
And I, I believe it's because shedid not have pitch that the kind
of pitch we're talking about.
I think she was well prepared.
I believe she worked hard, but itoften felt like she sounded That
she was going low as opposed togoing high in in her ideals and her
(17:42):
tone, or she seemed frustrated andangry, on the defense all the time.
And it was heartbreaking to mereally, because I do admire her.
But she couldn't lift herself up.
And of course she famously calledpeople or infamously called
people a basket of deplorables.
(18:04):
And that, that doesn't reach acrossthe divide the way Ken brought
people together in a tough moment.
It seemed that unintentionally,but nonetheless, It's actually
that Hillary was seen as divisive.
The thing that was also a great irony,because I love politics, I follow
(18:24):
politics very closely, is at herconcession speech, she did have pitch.
And I don't know if any of yourviewers and listeners remember
that concession speech, but shewas actually wearing purple.
And purple is a symbol to me because Wecall our political parties here in the
United States red and blue so one sidewears blue, the other side wears red.
(18:47):
And purple is the, is thecoming together of both sides.
She, she talked very graciouslyabout accepting this outcome, not
challenging the outcome, but in, butin the, in the spirit of advancing
democracy, accepting this outcome.
And lastly, she spoke to littlegirls across the country and said,
don't let this hold you back.
(19:08):
You can be anything you want.
And I remember watching it with mydaughter who was at the time, right in
the age group to hear such a messageand I wished so much she had that pitch
throughout the campaign and it it's wasa bit of a heartbreaking thing to me.
I want to say one other thingabout pitch, if I may, and that is.
(19:31):
That,
in companies today that are strugglingwith quality controls, I think
it is because people on the shopfloor, people in the middle ranks
of the company, Are often afraidto raise bad news and problems up.
(19:52):
And I don't know the details of what'shappening at Boeing today, for example,
but I do know that the CEO has losthis position and that is largely
seen as a result of the failure.
To deal with the quality issues atthe company and having really studied
companies that have had crisis fromBritish Petroleum to Disney to Boeing
(20:16):
one of the key things is really havinga clear line of communication from the
junior levels to the senior levels.
And you can't have that if people feelthey're going to get shouted down or
bullied or, you as you say, speakingabout Amy Edmonds psychological safety.
Psychological safety and pitchgo right together in my mind.
Aidan McCullen (20:39):
Beautifully said and so important i was reading about
the case study of nokia and peoplesay it was strategic failure etc
etc but this is the mobile phonedivision and what they in seattle.
Create this post mortem and they saidit was dominated by an atmosphere of
frightened middle managers afraid oftelling the truth so there was no.
(21:04):
Raising up so people making thedecisions couldn't make those decisions.
So you're absolutely nailed a hugeelement of why so many organizations
fail ultimately, but they blame it onstrategy when so much so it's, it's the
softer skills and one of the reasonswhy I think your book is so important.
I just want to say toour audience in the book.
(21:24):
Sally gives loads and loads of adviceloads and loads of golden rules and i
won't have time to cover it i highlyrecommend it particularly if you're
working in communications you have aguru of communications here and i have
a copy of for grabs just sign up to oursub stack where i'll give away a copy
of sally's great book breaking through.
(21:45):
What in the book you give a golden ruleson pitch itself now we're not gonna
cover all eight but i'd love you to shareperhaps one of your top tips on pitch.
Sally Susman (21:55):
Well, first of all, , thank you , for sharing the book and for,
again, for giving me this opportunity.
I really think one of the firstthings that's most important
about pitch is really to enter aconversation with the audience.
An open mind and an open heart to thepossibility that this will be pleasant,
(22:16):
that it will be something where I willlearn I, I, was excited to speak with
you today, knowing of your, your past.
And I really think the mindset thatone brings to each and every encounter,
I referenced it a little bit, but youknow, I've been in hostile environments.
I've been places where people don'tlike the big, bad pharma industry, or
(22:38):
people have a negative impression just ofsomeone from a, from a large corporation.
And I think if you can really startwith the human elements share a little
bit about yourself, ask a question,these kinds of very humanizing
behaviors are, are really essentialto getting on that good pitch at the
(23:01):
very beginning of a conversation.
Aidan McCullen (23:02):
You couldn't have tedious a better for the next one cuz i've jumped
around and i'm not set i haven't sent ascript to sally or anything like that,
will you take me up beautifully cuz youdevote a whole chapter to humor and humor
for me was a difficult one when i workedin organizations cuz i was always always.
It's in me to, to be try and bringa bit of humor to a situation,
(23:26):
particularly when it's tense, butsometimes that can be perceived as
you're a joker or you're the clown.
You're the class clown type characterwhen that's not the intent at all.
And you share a brilliant story here.
I'd love you to tell us a little bitabout humor, but also the great story
and to intrigue our audience, I'llsay, I'll give you two cows for her.
Sally Susman (23:51):
humor is hard.
Just what you, I want to double clickon what you just said about humor
can be hard in the workplace today.
And it was the hardestchapter of the 10 to write.
And more than once, Aiden, I said,I ripped it up and walked away and
said, I can't write about humor inthis environment of austere political
(24:15):
correction, correctivity of people gettingcanceled for saying the wrong thing.
And as you say, nobody wants to bethe joker and I especially I'm very
passionate about corporate communicationsand wanting to elevate the field.
And it's a terrible thing if thecommunications person is seen as
(24:35):
sort of the, the court jester inthe office that that's no good.
But I stuck with this because I don'twant to live in a world that's joyless.
And I want to be able to have a light.
and happy atmosphere inthe work environment.
We spend so much time in the office.
It needs to have a levityand a humanity to it.
(25:00):
So I opened the chapter with astory that took place in Ethiopia.
I was traveling.
Along with some Pfizer colleagues AlbertBourla, who's now my boss was then a
colleague and fellow traveling companionon this trip, which was part of the
Pfizer Foundation work reviewing whatwe do to, to help engender healthcare
(25:23):
among those who don't have good access.
We were, it was the end of a long day.
We had some jet lag.
It was very hot.
We'd been in a maternal clinic andwe were just resting for a moment
under a tree, getting ready toget back in our van and carry on.
When we saw a group from thevillage coming toward us to,
(25:45):
to seem friendly, to greet us.
And the gentleman who appearedto be the leader came up to me.
I was our trip leader.
I had been guiding and communicating.
And he said to me that hewanted to trade me for two cows.
And I just lost it.
(26:07):
And I did I pride myself on speakingand I didn't know what to say.
I, I was sputtering I am, I am a feminist.
I'm a woman leader.
I mean, this is ridiculous.
And I was just, when Albert, who'svery funny came up from behind and
(26:30):
said, sir, to the, to the gentlemen,this woman is one of the most senior
leaders at a, at a fortune 50 company.
And she will not be traded.
For less than six cows.
And with that, we all laughed mostlyme because I realized he was joking me.
(26:52):
And of course we're not going tobe traded for cows, but in a far
away place at a tired moment, I hadlost my sense of humor and I was
grateful to Albert for restoring it.
And it ended up being a lovely visitwith lots of photos and handshakes.
And.
Albert is very good at that.
He can diffuse tensecircumstances with humor.
(27:17):
And while I can't tell a joketo save my life, I probably
just proved it with that story.
But I do like to have alighthearted atmosphere.
And so one ritual I have.
Created in, in my own department isevery summer we have open mic night.
And what that is, is we doit at the end of the day.
(27:42):
We have some refreshment and we have amicrophone set up to try to make it look
like a comedy club and people get up.
I usually start and they share a recentmistake that they made and people
tell it, these stories with flourish.
And I've heard it all at this point topsecret documents left on the subway all
(28:03):
kinds of embarrassing mistakes made.
But once we share our stories andwe laugh together, the shame is
eradicated and the humanity fillsthe space and we're all better off
and we learn from doing it together.
So I think we stick with humor.
We never laugh at the expense of others.
(28:24):
I should also mention that here.
At Pfizer, we have four corporatevalues, one of which is joy.
And I think joy is very uncommonfor a value of a big pharma company.
But we, we thought about that and wethought it was important to be joyful.
And we even got into thesubstrate of what does it mean
(28:46):
to have joy as a corporate value?
And it means that.
We take our jobs seriously,but not ourselves.
And that we recognizelaughter is good medicine too.
a joyful company, humor andlightheartedness as my personal
goal its way into that chapter.
Aidan McCullen (29:06):
It's such a great ritual i love that because it's the intersection
of humor but also the seriousness ofpsychological safety where it's a safe
environment to share your mistakes andalso, when somebody see somebody else
who's a professional who's succeededin life admitting i make mistakes
too, it opens up innovation as well assuch a key part of innovation to share
(29:29):
that i love that ritual and if there'sanything, for our audience to take
away it's that one is a beautiful one.
You mentioned something though,Sally, which was the Albert burla.
And indeed throughout the book, youstart with the story of the pandemic.
And I I've had such empathy for youduring that period, because you'd
(29:51):
come from I'm X you'd come fromS day and you'd come to Pfizer.
Add a period where it wasn't the mosttrusted organization then we had these
horrific documentaries for example aboutpurdue pharma et cetera which doesn't
help your job because you're trying tochange how people view the company and
you mentioned how you joined Pfizer in twothousand seven but in the early days you
(30:15):
almost quit on multiple occasions becauseof the hostility that the company faced
and you felt very very viscerally yourselfi thought we'd share that because You're
a human being i think people forget thatthere's human beings working in all these
organizations i'm trying to change someblip that the organization has had or the
(30:37):
industry, it can be so visceral on youas a human being it can be so damning it
can be so emotionally draining as welland i'd love you to share that part that
you share in the book because it showshow human you and your colleagues are.
Sally Susman (30:52):
You bet.
And thank you for asking me about it.
The first two companies I worked for,American Express and Estee Lauder, had a
lot of reputational wind at their back.
People like these companies.
They're fun.
American Express had museum qualityAdvertising and marketing their
(31:16):
photography was done by Annie Leibovitz.
They were about travel and lifestyle.
And people just love this company.
Same is true for Estee Lauder.
As you've mentioned, founded by a greatfamily with deep roots in New York.
And, they have products thatdelight women around the world.
(31:37):
And where mostly whereverthis family goes, they're.
Red carpet is rolled down because they're,they're generous and they're kind.
But when I got a call about coming toPfizer from a recruiter, I thought, wow,
these companies make life saving medicineand yet they're pretty much reviled.
(32:00):
The reputational data showed.
big pharma companies down withoil and gas and even with tobacco.
And I guess I was naive orperhaps overly self confident
cause I thought, that's crazy.
I'm going to fix that.
This is a great challenge for me.
I'm going to go over tothe biopharma sector.
(32:20):
And fix this reputation problemand as I'd also like to just as a
slight side note to say switchingsectors is really fun because you
just are drinking from the fire hoseand you're learning all the time.
But for me I felt like I ranheadlong into a brick wall.
(32:41):
I had underestimated thecynicism towards the industry.
I started to hear from family andfriends saying, why did you go there?
These are bad.
bad places.
I, I, I sat in on focus groups where Iheard people say these companies have a
(33:05):
cure for diabetes, but they won't put itforward because insulin is so profitable.
And while Pfizer is not aninsulin company, it wasn't
personal to Pfizer to me.
It was indicative of the level of cynicismand negativity towards the industry.
So for my first 10 plus years, I wasbanging my head against that brick wall.
(33:29):
I was trying all sorts of things.
And, I like to think I was perhaps havingincremental progress, but not much.
Aidan McCullen (33:37):
So this was the environment into which you joined
five thousand seven fast forwardto the pandemic you really had
a lot on your plate and what iloved here was this is where you.
Derived all your experience, , , theinsights that you'd learned
from your parents from workingin the other organizations.
(33:57):
But you didn't just go to crisiscommunications one on one like many
organizations would have done becausethat's the safe bet you tore up everything
you knew and you leaned into your heart.
You leaned into the power of yourcolleagues as well you listen to them
just like you said earlier on about whohas ideas from lower in the echelons
(34:17):
of the organization that they can shareand that became the epiphany of the book
including how albert burla showed up.
End the crisis as well i'd love you toshare that cuz this is the genesis of
the book but also it was the genesisof your new communications approach.
When it matters most
Sally Susman (34:36):
Right.
And as I was mentioning, I wasstruggling before the pandemic and
I thought I might've been runningout of gas for this challenge.
And then it was just about four years ago.
Four years ago from now, when we'retalking, you and I, that the world
(34:56):
started to hear about this thing calledthe coronavirus and the COVID epidemic.
And Albert Bourla had gone to Greeceto give a speech at a conference.
And by the time his flightlanded, he was dead.
The conference had shut down andwe all recall that closing of
doors across society as peoplewere starting to, to hunker down
(35:20):
in anticipation of the pandemic.
So Albert had to just turn around, cameback to New York and on his flight,
he wrote on a little piece of paperthat we still have at the company
today that he had to do three things.
First, Take care of our 85, 000employees across the globe because
employee wellness became a top priority.
(35:43):
Secondly, to ensure the steadystream of medicine around the world
because horrible illnesses likecancer and Alzheimer's, they didn't
go on break during the pandemic.
And third, that we would make avaccine by the end of the year.
And this is where I thought,Oh no, it's a global pandemic.
And my boss has lost his mindbecause he was expressing
(36:06):
something that felt impossible.
Typically it would take 10 to12 years to make a vaccine.
Albert then did something I've neverseen any of the other nine CEOs do.
And that is he appointeda project manager.
Looked around the roomand it pointed himself.
And that's when I thought, well, maybe,just maybe this is going to happen.
(36:30):
And from that moment forward, the companywent about doing things very differently,
put 2 billion at risk, did not acceptgovernment money so that we would be
liberated from any strings attached.
Took a big bet on MRNA technologyjust put all chips on the table.
And when I saw this aid, and I thought,this is my moment, this I didn't know
(36:55):
in 2007, it would take until 2020 tohave my moment, but here it was, and
I want it to be very intentional aboutchanging the reputation of this company.
And so I did, I too didthings very differently.
I took some of our treasured intellectualproperty like a clinical trial protocol,
(37:17):
and put it right up on the website.
Because we didn't have threeyears to fill this trial.
We didn't have three months.
We had like three weeks.
And I embedded mediaalong for the journey.
I had two senior reportersfrom the Wall Street Journal.
And a documentary film crew from Nat Geo.
(37:37):
It was a big risk.
There were many nights I couldn'tsleep worrying that I was
filming the greatest debacle.
In corporate history, but I alsoknew that if we were successful
this would be the narrative thatthe world would need to know.
And that I couldn't go back and recreateit as because it it's, it's now history.
(38:01):
Pfizer was the first companyto find a successful M.
R.
N.
A.
Covid vaccine.
And the next when we when we found out thevaccine work the very next day, the Wall
Street Journal dropped four full pages,every detail under a wonderful headline.
(38:22):
The Pfizer vaccine, crazydeadlines and a pushy CEO.
And while that's funny, it's also true.
It was the audacity of the of theThe charge and the tenacity of
the leader that made it happen.
The film called Mission Possible isstill available on YouTube and it's 46
(38:44):
minutes of pure heaven for me to watch it.
And for the 85, 000 people who workhere, it's a, it's a chronicle,
a testimony of what we did today.
Pfizer is a top 10 global brand,according to fortune magazine and other
reputable reputation tracking sources.
And.
(39:04):
We were able to really achieveboth a scientific transformation,
but also a trust and reputationtransformation at the same time.
Aidan McCullen (39:13):
it's such a powerful story and you know i wanted to lean
into a couple of things there so onealbert got his hands dirty literally got
involved like this is something that'sso lacking with so much innovation.
Often innovation is bring in theconsultants delegated somewhere in the
organization i'll focus on messagingto the outside world or to our
(39:35):
shareholders or stakeholders i thoughtthat was such an important element.
But then also you had a differentapproach as an innovator because
one of the things i saw here was apattern that you had experienced.
A video you know a documentarybefore gone the wrong way.
When it didn't go so you'd seen this firsttime you'd seen the documentary maybe
(39:58):
you'll share that because you had beenstung in the past but yet you had the
bravery to innovate and go you know whatthis is the way forward, i'm hopefully
will drive us and hopefully we'll geta result at the end of this i love you
to share that because that that to mewas a key part that i don't know even if
you knew how brave that was because, Somany times people will have failed like
(40:21):
that or seen failure firsthand and thennot risk it once again, because the safe
bet is where innovation doesn't happen,but you actually went with something
really, really brave and it paid off.
Luckily,
Sally Susman (40:34):
Well, thank you for saying that.
I am not sure if it'sbravery or foolishness
entirely.
Exactly.
As I mentioned earlier, I lovepolitics and follow and engage
in politics very closely.
You're referring to a situationhere in New York city.
(40:55):
Where I was supporting a woman, ChristineQuinn, who had been the speaker of our
city council and was running for mayorand was the odds on favorite to win.
She was seen as the, thefront runner and the leader.
And the campaign agreed with the NewYork Times to embed a documentary film
(41:17):
crew with Chris along the way of hercampaign there was a belief it was going
to be a historic win first female mayorto possibly lead the city and this film
crew is following her around and over thecourse of the campaign, for reasons that
(41:37):
we don't have time to get into today, but.
her, her her lead started to evaporateand suddenly she wasn't necessarily going
to win and in fact had several stumblesalong the campaign trail that were
vividly videographed by this company.
And in the end, she, she didn't win.
(42:00):
She did not win the primary.
She was exited early from the race.
And that, that film is quite painfulto watch and to see the sinking
hopes of a great public servant.
And it did caution meabout , don't embed a film crew
lightly, but there is there is.
(42:21):
It's hard to say this, Aiden, butthere was a gift of this crisis
in that all bets were, were off.
And if Pfizer had failed, I think the,the, the, the trauma of that would have
been much bigger than a bad news cyclefor, for the company or the video
(42:42):
that probably nobody would have watchedthe stakes were so high and Albert's
leadership was Was really pro risk.
Albert is himself Greek, proudlyGreek, and he likes to quote Greek
philosophers to us here at the company.
And one of my favorites of his quotesis from Aristotle, where he says, Our
(43:06):
problem is not that we aim high and miss.
Our problem is when we aim low and hit.
And this was a moment wherewe were all aiming so high.
The scientists, the peoplein manufacturing, Before the
pandemic, in our best year, weproduced 200 million vaccines.
(43:30):
During the pandemic, we jumpedup to 4 and 5 billion production.
So, the whole place, was runningwith this energy and with this this
sense of purpose that is so critical.
To getting things done to innovating.
I mean, I'm sure you seethis throughout your work.
(43:50):
The higher the stakesin many ways, the better
Aidan McCullen (43:53):
Absolutely and this is something you did again with your
team and one of the things that wesee in innovation is that if you
have a vision or a mission or values.
Yes the company should have thembut each individual team or sector
within the organization must alsohave them because they're not always
(44:15):
the same but you can also embedyourself below the organizations i
want to things i love that you did.
Is that you called your team togetherand you said forget the old rules of
how we operate imagine we are foundersof a startup not a hundred and seventy
one year old company now hundred andseventy three perhaps i'm no longer in.
(44:36):
There you
go.
I'm no longer interested inplaying defense or dodging the
broadsides against our industry.
This is the moment to strikeout and break through to people.
And you said to your, toyour team, what do you think?
And what I loved here was that theirresponse, they were longing for this.
(44:57):
Something that was bigger thanthemselves and i think this is one
of the core messages of the book.
Sally Susman (45:05):
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
I do remember this moment.
Because I was at home.
Most of us were working from home becauseof our fears of, of, the pandemic and,
I have an infrequent yoga practice.
I'm not very good at it, but Ioccasionally, do a little yoga and
(45:26):
appreciate the quiet that it brings.
And there's a ritual in thebeginning of most yoga classes
where you set an intention.
The teacher asks you to set an intentionand it can be something usually
something for a loved one, a familymember, maybe resolution of a problem.
And so that morning.
I was doing a little yoga and Idecided to set this intention to
(45:49):
make the most of this moment, notknowing how it would turn out.
And as you say, I grabbed my teamand we jumped on a video call and I
started talking to them about this.
And rather than sensing they'refeeling tired or, or tired.
overwrought or worn down by this,I literally saw them rise their
(46:13):
eyes lit up, their, their, theirkind of their posture got better.
Because this is what people want to do.
And as I mentioned, I, I had gottena bit ground down over the decade.
And I am not proud to say that I didn'talways, Take this, the, the, the harder
(46:34):
road I might not tell people what Idid in my profession cause I didn't
want to get into an argument, butin this moment lives were at stake.
Literally we would think about everyday, how, how many people died.
We you'd hear it on the news thatthe need for the vaccine was urgent
(46:57):
and I suddenly felt more confident.
And I opened the aperture on thestakeholders that we would engage with.
We always, of course, it would engagewith patient groups and regulators
and, and those stakeholders close tohome in the biopharmaceutical industry.
But during the pandemic, I was invitedto speak To the restaurant workers
(47:20):
association, because they wantedto know, how do we try to get our
restaurants open in this environment?
What, when will we have vaccinesand how will they protect us?
Same that I went and engagedwith the teacher's union,
someone I'd never talked to.
And importantly for me personallyI came out from behind the scenes.
(47:42):
During my whole career, more than 30years, my job had been to help others.
To know what to say or, orwhere to go and what, how to
build bridges to stakeholders.
And because we were all running flat out,some of those opportunities turned to me.
I went on television.
(48:03):
I did more podcasts.
I gave speeches, thingsI hadn't done before.
And I wrote a book which had been alifelong ambition never before achieved
until in this moment because I wasjust driven by this intentionality and
it, it opened up new lines of thoughtfor me about, yes, communications,
(48:25):
but also leadership and connection.
So now that the pandemic is behindus, Aiden, I try to maintain a
firm, Focus on intentionality.
So this morning, for example, beforesitting down with you, I said this guy
talks to all the big shots in innovation.
(48:47):
My, my goal will be to addsomething new to the conversation
to try to my own perspective andhopefully to make it interesting.
when I'm talking to my parents,my daughter, my colleagues, my, my
boss, I try to say ahead of the.
Take 30 seconds and claim an intention.
(49:08):
It's really very powerful.
Aidan McCullen (49:10):
Beautiful and i don't know if you know what ellen
langer., she's like the mother ofmindfulness, the mother of positive
psychology, brilliant harvard professor.
And one of the things she talksabout being mindful is very similar
to the idea of intentionality.
It's actually just being presentin whatever you're doing.
And this is a nice.
(49:30):
Link to the next one where aboutbeing curious and here you can use
the word breakthrough communicatorsynonymously with an innovator you say
here breakthrough communicators arerelentlessly curious, they are interested
in things outside themselves they arevirtual so listeners and they ask probing
questions and listen mindfully, tothe answers so this is actually truly
(49:53):
being present truly listening etc.
But I wanted to share this andperhaps this is the last tenant
we'll, we'll share as well.
I absolutely loved how your owncuriosity and leaning into it and
your practice of journaling as well,that you haven't really mentioned.
You mentioned about thank you notes, butyou also journal very, very regularly,
(50:15):
the things you're grateful for, et cetera,but also note things you're curious about.
And this led to your dream intern.
And one of the things I talkabout in my work is reverse.
Reverse onboarding.
So when you have somebody who comes inas an intern in the organization or a
newcomer, rather than program them in theway things are done around here, ask them
(50:37):
to report back to you, warts and all, whatthey see that you're doing wrong with
their fresh eyes, cause you've become usedto it, but I loved how your creativity.
Flip that on its head and brought inthis dream intern and this is something
that any organization can do andapproved to be a master stroke for you.
Sally Susman (50:58):
Thank you.
I also made a note of your commentabout reverse onboarding because
it won't be long before the summerinterns arrive here at Pfizer.
And I appreciate that thought.
So thanks for this, Aiden, because Ithink there's a really interesting.
between curiosity and creativity andoften in big companies, especially those
(51:19):
that are strong marketing companies.
There's this idea that the creatives.
Are these other people?
They wear funky clothes and theyare have divine powers of creativity
and the rest of us don't have that.
I strongly reject that notion and Ibelieve all of us, each one of us,
have the power to be curious and Andthat will lead to some creativity.
(51:47):
I learned a bit about this from thedancer and choreographer Twyla Thwarp.
And she has a conceptshe calls scratching.
And scratching is simple.
It means that you just scratchthe surface of all the things
that are happening around us.
on a daily basis.
It can be as simple as taking a differentstreet when I walk home to see different
(52:10):
things, or picking up a book that's notthe typical genre that I usually read, or
going to a restaurant with a cuisine thatI've never had before, and that this kind
of simple scratching gives you big ideas.
So I had such a moment, I was flyinghome from a business trip, and I was
tired, too tired to work or even to read.
(52:33):
And so I decided to scratch a littlebit, and I looked at the movies that
they were showing on the, on the plane.
And there was one called The Intern.
And if anyone is not familiarwith that movie, it stars Robert
De Niro, who plays a retired man.
Who didn't like his retirement,felt very much on the margins and
(52:54):
joined a firm as their summer intern.
The other main character is Anne Hathaway,who plays the business boss lady,
who's lonely in the job and struggling.
It doesn't really have anyoneIn the company that she can
talk to cause she's the boss.
She and he form a close relationshipand become great friends.
(53:15):
And of course, solve alltheir mutual problems.
Happy ending.
As I'm watching this on the plane, Istart to tear up because I'm deeply
moved by this, and very next morning,I marched myself into the head of HR
at Pfizer and I said, this summer,I'm going to have a senior intern.
(53:36):
I then asked him if hewould be my summer intern.
And literally he, he tapped hisear, Aiden, cause I think he
didn't think he heard me correctly.
And I explained the concept and he toldme he had to think about it overnight.
Which I knew meant he had to askhis wife if she agreed and she did.
And we're all, we're friends.
(53:58):
And he came back to me the next dayand said, yes, he will be my intern.
And I said, well, please let meoffer you a consulting contract
because you're so senior.
He said, what do the other interns make?
18 an hour.
He said, I'll take it.
And I said, but pleaselet me give you an office.
So you have some privacy.
(54:18):
Where do the other interns sit?
He asked, I said, overhere in the bullpen.
He sat in the bullpen and hebecame this much beloved figure.
And he helped me as well with thingsthat were marinating in my mind.
But what was most incredibleis that people heard about
this thing we were doing.
(54:40):
It went a little viral.
Fast company magazine asked us about itand covered it and put us on the cover of
fast company magazine for a decade plus.
I've been trying to get Pfizer onthe cover of fast company with no
success, but this kind of quirky,Very human, simple intergenerational
(55:02):
experiment put a shine on the company.
It's a company willing todo things out of the box.
We were also invited to goonto the main stage at South by
Southwest and tell our story.
So I love, I love telling this storybecause its roots were so simple.
I watched a movie.
That sparked an idea.
And I believe as long as you give fullcredit to, from wherever, whomever
(55:27):
you're scratching, it, it can leadto really wonderful opportunities
rooted in curiosity, living in,in the freedom to be creative.
Aidan McCullen (55:38):
absolutely beautiful i have to say when i read that i was smiling
to myself i had a similar experiencewith the with the movie and it's how
i reached out to Dee Hock who is oneof the greatest mentors i ever had.
I had him on the show.
He's the founder of visa and he wrotethe forward to my book, but it all
started from watching that movie.
And I was like, there's bound to bepeople out there who are brilliant
(56:03):
and nobody's no longer going tothem because they're not just on
the circuit or whatever, etc, etc.
And it's just, I think thosekind of outside the box.
Thinking driven by creativity can if youlean into them and don't worry about how
it's gonna pan out it will always workout you'll never regret those things
(56:25):
so i absolutely love that story nowi'm gonna land the ship on something.
That you mentioned earlier on thebook but i thought it'd be a lovely
way to finish this book firstlycongratulations to you on the matrix
award and for people who don't knowwhat that is it is the highest honor,
that can be bestowed upon somebody insally's professional and communications.
(56:47):
And I loved your intentionality here.
So you mentioned that youbrought that intentionality
that you have in yoga to your
Sally Susman (56:56):
Yeah
Aidan McCullen (56:57):
and you were very nervous about this speech, but you
posed a question to the audienceat the end from your favorite poet.
I'd love you to maybe land today'sship and land today's episode.
With how you did that becausethis is so valuable to anybody
Sally Susman (57:16):
Nothing would make me happier.
Thank you for the opportunity.
And you're right.
Winning a matrix wasa very big deal to me.
It was something that for many yearsI, I wanted to achieve and they'd
come out every year with the listof winners and it wasn't on it.
And I thought, Oh, well, it'snot going to happen for me.
(57:37):
And then it did come when I washere at Pfizer, I was given the
matrix award for communications.
And all of a sudden, Aiden, after allthese years of like dying to get this
award, I panicked over what I would sayin my speech, because I guess it just
meant so much to me and it, it was avery important opportunity in my life.
(57:58):
And I did several drafts, sort ofcliche after cliche after cliche,
when I finally hunkered down andtried to get to the heart of it.
And the purpose of this organization, TheMatrix, and Women in Communication that
lead it here in New York, is not reallyto honor those of us who've done it for
a long time, but to provide scholarshipsto those rising in the profession.
(58:22):
So I decided the mostmeaningful thing I could do.
And what became my intention was tospeak directly to those young people in
this field that I care so much about.
And I was reminded of a line by oneof my favorite poets, Mary Oliver,
and her poem titled the summer day.
(58:42):
It ends with quite an evocative question.
And Mary says, tell me, whatis it you will do with your
one wild and precious life?
And I just let that question hang inthe air because, , the phrase tell
(59:04):
me is full of good pitch, right?
It means I want to know I'm listening.
And what is it you want?
Not what other people want.
And each life is truly inmy mind, wild and precious.
So it was, a very powerful moment for me.
And I hope one in which inspiredthe young women in the field,
(59:29):
helping young people in the field.
is extremely important to me.
Corporate affairs and communicationsisn't singular in how people
credential themselves for this work.
If you're the general counsel of acompany, you better have a legal degree.
If you're our head of R and D, youlikely have at least one PhD in
(59:51):
science, but in my field, people comefrom all All different backgrounds.
There are journalists, politicians, poets,philosophers, and we learn our trade
and our craft by watching others do it.
this book, Breaking Through, is myapprenticeship for people who want to
(01:00:13):
be in this field, and want to know thelived experience for doing the work.
And so I'm just again, supergrateful to you for allowing me this
opportunity and the time for answersto breathe and really thank you so
much for your interest , in the book.
Aidan McCullen (01:00:32):
i don't have a blue note to write this on
but author of breaking through.
Communicating to open mindsmove hearts and change the
world sally sussman thank you
Sally Susman (01:00:46):
Aidan, thank you.
It's a pleasure to welcome the author of breaking
(00:02):
through, communicating to open minds,move hearts and change the world.
Sally Sussman, welcome to the show.
Sally Susman (00:09):
Thanks, Aiden.
It's great to be here with you.
Aidan McCullen (00:11):
great to have you with us.
I was telling you off air that I hadthe great pleasure to read your book
during my downtime, during my holidays,which is just great because I get to
absorb the book in a different way.
It doesn't feel as pressurized cause Idon't have to balance work and reading
the book as well, I learned so muchYou weave in your own personal story,
(00:32):
you weave in the story of Pfizerbattling against the pandemic to
bring us the vaccine and so much more.
Most particularly, I want to tell ouraudience, Sally imparts so much wisdom
about not only how to be the top of yourgame as a communications professional, but
also how to communicate in general and ithought we'd start with the importance of
(00:55):
communication i pulled a little excerpthere sally that i'd love you to riff on
you say because of the increased scrutinyand elevated stakes communication can
no longer be considered a soft skill.
The ability to lead and drive publicconversation is a rock hard competency.
It tests one's abilities as muchas professional discipline, maybe
(01:17):
more so in a time when publictrust in business, government
and media is at an all time low.
I'd love you to tell us about theimportance of communication, not just
in your role, but for any professionalat any level of the organization.
Sally Susman (01:31):
Oh, thank you so much.
And I, I really have to thankyou for taking time out of
your holiday to read my book.
I'm very grateful for that.
You've landed on probably themost important sentence in the
entire book to get us started.
The fact that I believecommunications is important.
Is mistaken as a soft skill andreally is a rock hard competency.
(01:55):
It's something I learned from supportingnine CEOs over three companies over more
than three decades, working with electedleaders, government officials, and cabinet
secretaries, and what I saw Aiden wasreally that all of those individuals.
(02:15):
are highly competent people.
I mean because you talk to peopleat the top of business, you don't
stumble into the corner office.
People get there because they've workedhard and they have competencies, but
the ones that are the game changers thatreally can shift the paradigm in their
field, whether that's Leonard Lauderat the Estee Lauder companies or Or my
(02:39):
current CEO, Albert Bourla at Pfizer,the ones that are the game changers
are the one who put as much effort intohow they communicate, into practicing
those skills of connection, of thinkingdeeply about what they want to express.
And so I wrote this book to sharethose insights and to encourage
(03:03):
people in leadership positions toreally understand the importance.
I have to say it brings me greatpride that the Harvard Business
Review Press took on this, thisfirst time author because I wanted
it to really be a book as much aboutleadership as about communications.
And I think the, the guidinghand of HBR helped me to do
Aidan McCullen (03:24):
i'm gonna jump around my notes a little bit here because there's
so much in it and particularly your shareso much of your own experience, i have to
say hats off to you for giving awards andall experience of your life and indeed
your experience of being a communicationsprofessional but there was a piece i
wanted to tune into you mentioned thereLauder Lauder, And the humility and the
(03:48):
attention to detail of these leaders,, You write in the book after time with
the American express company, you joinedEstee Lauder companies where you worked
with the Lauder family directly and youtell us here Estee Lauder was a master
communicator and I'd love you to sharethe communication story from this little
(04:08):
piece, telephone, telegraph, tell awoman Where is the law they claimed this
was a key element to her huge success
Sally Susman (04:17):
Right.
I mean, she's the poster girl.
poster woman for some of thecentral ideas in my book.
She knew instinctively that shehad to touch and reach the consumer
in, in very innovative ways.
She was the founder of this company andshe legend is that she started it pretty
(04:42):
much in the bathtub in her apartmentin Queens making the products and then
hand packaging them and delivering them.
And she had no money for advertising.
So she had to do the, The very personalskills of telegraph, telephone, tell
a woman, this is, was her mantra.
(05:04):
And I always thought maybe shewas the first person to go viral
before we knew viral was a thing.
And also to the point that often, authentic outreaches are more meaningful
than just broad scale advertising.
And that was a lesson that Estee learnedby necessity, but one that I think
(05:27):
we see very much today in all kindsof areas, including certainly in the
biopharmaceutical field, that influencervoices come from everywhere, not just
from big, splashy advertising campaigns.
But I love, I have to say, I lovemy time at that company because
they're so innovative and socreative and so committed to their
(05:48):
customers and to their employees.
Aidan McCullen (05:50):
gonna come back the Lauder family and indeed some of the tactics
or skills that you, honed from workingthere including just the very basic thing
i was saying thank you and we'll comeback to that because in the book sally
gives us guidelines of how to be a mastercommunicator in any field but i want
to come back to something yourself so.
You mentioned there Leonard Lauder oneof estes spawn and how he gathered some
(06:17):
skills that are inherent in the companytoday so they carry through to the
company and you too as a mother passon skills in your family but your own
background and your own family had amassive impact on your own mindset and.
What's interesting here is when yousee somebody as successful as you,
(06:37):
with such an illustrious career withsuch great brands of companies, et
cetera, people go, oh, it's wellfor them, et cetera, et cetera.
But what I loved about your story wasthat you reckon your teachers and probably
many of your co students would have.
Voted you least likely to succeedyes you succeeded nonetheless
including so much of the lessonsthat were passed on by your parents,
Sally Susman (07:02):
Yeah.
Well, you did mention the factthat the book is warts and all.
Okay.
And before I turned it intoHBR Press, I shared it with
just a very few trusted people.
family and friends.
I mean, as a fellow author,Aiden, I'm sure you do that.
You have a reading circle of people youtrust to, to help you with your work.
(07:23):
And I remember my mom sayingto me, Sally, this is terrible.
You, you talk about all your mostembarrassing mistakes in this book.
And I do.
And I try to tell them unflinchinglybecause I think it is through the shared
experience of making mistakes and, andstumbling at times that people can learn.
(07:46):
So thank you for saying thatI'm proud to show my warts.
I'm also very fortunate and proud tohave grown up in the family where I did.
My parents were interested in the world.
They had a, passion for civic issues andthey taught my brother and I many things.
(08:07):
We had to bring a, a newsfact to the table every night
at dinner and discuss it.
And this couldn't be a sportsscore or a weather forecast.
It had to be something of theworld and we had to talk about it.
My brother and I thought this wasinhumane, cruel, unfair but it was
(08:28):
actually a great gift Aidan because welearned how to observe the world and
how to process information and how to.
articulate things.
The other gift that my parents gave mewas a practice of writing thank you notes.
And mom was very strict about that.
Nothing, no gift could be enjoyed untilthe thank you note had been written.
(08:51):
I was surprised many years laterto have a conversation with Lauder.
Lauder about pretty much the same thing.
And when I joined the, thecompany, I was new to the industry.
As you mentioned, I came fromfinancial services into personal care.
And Lauder was kind enough to take meby the hand and introduce me to the top
(09:14):
editors across covering the industry.
And I remember very specificallyone, one day, and I tell the
story in the book as well.
Where we went to meet an editor whowas less than gracious, she kept us
waiting, which more importantly waskeeping him waiting because Lauder
Lauder is an icon in the industry.
(09:37):
She didn't give us atremendous amount of time.
She was rude.
She sat behind her desk with her eyes downand then dismissed us shortly thereafter.
And as Lauder and I were Hesaid to me, now, don't forget
to write her a thank you note.
And I was what she was so rude.
(09:59):
And he said, nope, that's how we roll.
And I realized that writingthank you notes was not a
casual affair at the company.
Lauder himself wrote many,he had blue stationary.
It was one of the.
The colors of the brand and everyoneat the company calls it a blue note.
Did you get a blue note to saythank you for this or that?
(10:20):
And I realized that again, before theyhad money for advertising, before they
could spend a lot on splashy incentives.
They took the time to thankthe women who work behind the
counter, their best customers.
And so now I try most mornings to takea moment before I start my day and write
(10:42):
one or two thank you notes looking atmy calendar for, for the day before.
And it's a tremendous practice becauseit gives you a sense of gratitude.
Of the good fortune that you have forthe people that you know, and people
are very touched by it, especially inthe age of texting and tweeting and to
(11:04):
receive a note through the post witha thank you is still very meaningful.
Something I take quite seriously.
So that's why it's almost a wholechapter dedicated to how to write
a thank you note, remembering thatspecific is important to not just say
thanks for having me for dinner, butthanks for hosting me in your home.
(11:25):
And the the, the vegetables fromyour garden were so delicious and my.
was a lovely choice.
The more specific, the better.
Aidan McCullen (11:36):
more time to cover all the communication tenants from the
book but that one about thanks as yousaid it's a huge one and the date i
learned so much from that i pass thaton this is where i say it's so useful
to read a book when i'm on holidays.
I give an example, so I read that storyabout you and this less than gracious
person and I one of the beautifulthings about doing the show is lots
(11:59):
of the content mixes and becomes thismarination of a mindset over a period of
time and one of the things that you getfrom doing the show is huge empathy so.
Empathy for that person who's less thangracious not knowing what's going on
their lives and then i try and passthat on to my kids so something similar
happened where there was somebody elsewhen we were checking in into security
(12:23):
for the airport and she wasn't very niceat all and i smiled and my son said why
are you smiling at her and i said well.
I said, you know what, I just readit in this book that when you smile,
the other person has mirror neurons,they can't but not smile back.
It's really, really hard for them.
And you can unlock them.
And you never know what's
(12:44):
going on in that person's life as well.
So maybe, maybe we'll say seen asI'm on that one, that element of
How you show up to the other personbeing such a key tenant and key
theme that's right the book as well
Sally Susman (12:58):
Absolutely.
I bet that lady smiled back at youtoo from the, the security person.
They
Aidan McCullen (13:04):
my son was surprised i was like yeah it's great
Sally Susman (13:08):
Yeah.
Aidan McCullen (13:09):
them and pass on the lessons sorry to interrupt you,
Sally Susman (13:13):
No, not at all.
I, I have a specific chapter in the bookthat I refer to as Perfecting your pitch.
And I want to be clear to all your, yourlisteners and viewers that I'm not talking
about the dreaded elevator pitch or acold call where you're pitching an idea,
maybe to a cynical journalist, but aquality, a quality of being in the world.
(13:39):
So I tell the story, this one fromAmerican express and it, it followed
9 11, which here in New York andthroughout the United States was a.
Unforgettable, horrible day.
And the American Express headquartersare right down at the World Trade
Center where the, the terrorist actionhappened and the Twin Towers came down.
(14:03):
Ken Chenault was a new CEO, had justbeen a CEO for a couple of months, who
was actually out on the West Coast ofthe United States meeting with some
people in one of the call centers.
When the tragedy struck and heknew he needed to get back to the
headquarters in New York, had todrive across the country because
(14:24):
there were no planes flying for days.
And Ken had a leader'sinstinct that he needed to get
people together in one place.
So they rented out Madison SquareGarden, which is huge and invited all
the employees from the tri state area.
So New York, New Jersey,Connecticut to come together.
(14:46):
And of course Ken's staff prepareda speech for him to give, which
he didn't give that speech.
He spoke from the heart.
He waited into the audience to touch thepeople whose lives had been impacted.
He learned the names of the employeeswho had perished in the tragedy.
(15:09):
And most importantly, he set a toneand the tone was, That American
Express's best days, that New YorkCity's best days would be ahead of it.
And I write about that, and itgoes right back to your story
and your education with your son.
That how we choose to showup is so important at, at,
(15:32):
at really important moments.
And also at everyday moments.
Greeting people by their name.
Saying hello just these simplethings make such a huge difference.
And if I turn up in someplace that's veryaggressive, like maybe a, pressurizing
(15:55):
journalist or a committee hearingin front of a, a, tough committee,
If you start by a smile kindness inyour voice, thank them for having
you, it can just take that edge out.
And I think that's so important.
Aidan McCullen (16:11):
that chapter on pitch you beat me to it because i thought it
was such an important chapter in everyaspect so whether it's for a regular
listener to the show who's workinginnovation pitching an idea, Or actually
calling something out like you mentionedbefore you've had amy edmonson in.
What's your company to talk aboutpsychological safety cause you want
(16:32):
people to be have the psychologicalsafety to call things out but one
of the things you call out was theunfortunate example of hillary.
Clinton's failed candidacy andhow she got the pitch wrong.
And this is one of the things youdetected from your experience.
And I thought we'd just juxtaposethe American express experience with
Hillary Clinton's experience and justhow subtle the difference is, but what
(16:57):
a dramatic impact that it can have.
Sally Susman (17:01):
Absolutely.
And I first must say that I aman admirer of Hillary Clinton.
I think she was a great secretaryof state, a wonderful Senator.
I believe she would have been a verygood president, but unfortunately
her campaign did not go well.
And I thought a lot about it, Aiden.
(17:21):
And I, I believe it's because shedid not have pitch that the kind
of pitch we're talking about.
I think she was well prepared.
I believe she worked hard, but itoften felt like she sounded That
she was going low as opposed togoing high in in her ideals and her
(17:42):
tone, or she seemed frustrated andangry, on the defense all the time.
And it was heartbreaking to mereally, because I do admire her.
But she couldn't lift herself up.
And of course she famously calledpeople or infamously called
people a basket of deplorables.
(18:04):
And that, that doesn't reach acrossthe divide the way Ken brought
people together in a tough moment.
It seemed that unintentionally,but nonetheless, It's actually
that Hillary was seen as divisive.
The thing that was also a great irony,because I love politics, I follow
(18:24):
politics very closely, is at herconcession speech, she did have pitch.
And I don't know if any of yourviewers and listeners remember
that concession speech, but shewas actually wearing purple.
And purple is a symbol to me because Wecall our political parties here in the
United States red and blue so one sidewears blue, the other side wears red.
(18:47):
And purple is the, is thecoming together of both sides.
She, she talked very graciouslyabout accepting this outcome, not
challenging the outcome, but in, butin the, in the spirit of advancing
democracy, accepting this outcome.
And lastly, she spoke to littlegirls across the country and said,
don't let this hold you back.
(19:08):
You can be anything you want.
And I remember watching it with mydaughter who was at the time, right in
the age group to hear such a messageand I wished so much she had that pitch
throughout the campaign and it it's wasa bit of a heartbreaking thing to me.
I want to say one other thingabout pitch, if I may, and that is.
(19:31):
That,
in companies today that are strugglingwith quality controls, I think
it is because people on the shopfloor, people in the middle ranks
of the company, Are often afraidto raise bad news and problems up.
(19:52):
And I don't know the details of what'shappening at Boeing today, for example,
but I do know that the CEO has losthis position and that is largely
seen as a result of the failure.
To deal with the quality issues atthe company and having really studied
companies that have had crisis fromBritish Petroleum to Disney to Boeing
(20:16):
one of the key things is really havinga clear line of communication from the
junior levels to the senior levels.
And you can't have that if people feelthey're going to get shouted down or
bullied or, you as you say, speakingabout Amy Edmonds psychological safety.
Psychological safety and pitchgo right together in my mind.
Aidan McCullen (20:39):
Beautifully said and so important i was reading about
the case study of nokia and peoplesay it was strategic failure etc
etc but this is the mobile phonedivision and what they in seattle.
Create this post mortem and they saidit was dominated by an atmosphere of
frightened middle managers afraid oftelling the truth so there was no.
(21:04):
Raising up so people making thedecisions couldn't make those decisions.
So you're absolutely nailed a hugeelement of why so many organizations
fail ultimately, but they blame it onstrategy when so much so it's, it's the
softer skills and one of the reasonswhy I think your book is so important.
I just want to say toour audience in the book.
(21:24):
Sally gives loads and loads of adviceloads and loads of golden rules and i
won't have time to cover it i highlyrecommend it particularly if you're
working in communications you have aguru of communications here and i have
a copy of for grabs just sign up to oursub stack where i'll give away a copy
of sally's great book breaking through.
(21:45):
What in the book you give a golden ruleson pitch itself now we're not gonna
cover all eight but i'd love you to shareperhaps one of your top tips on pitch.
Sally Susman (21:55):
Well, first of all, , thank you , for sharing the book and for,
again, for giving me this opportunity.
I really think one of the firstthings that's most important
about pitch is really to enter aconversation with the audience.
An open mind and an open heart to thepossibility that this will be pleasant,
(22:16):
that it will be something where I willlearn I, I, was excited to speak with
you today, knowing of your, your past.
And I really think the mindset thatone brings to each and every encounter,
I referenced it a little bit, but youknow, I've been in hostile environments.
I've been places where people don'tlike the big, bad pharma industry, or
(22:38):
people have a negative impression just ofsomeone from a, from a large corporation.
And I think if you can really startwith the human elements share a little
bit about yourself, ask a question,these kinds of very humanizing
behaviors are, are really essentialto getting on that good pitch at the
(23:01):
very beginning of a conversation.
Aidan McCullen (23:02):
You couldn't have tedious a better for the next one cuz i've jumped
around and i'm not set i haven't sent ascript to sally or anything like that,
will you take me up beautifully cuz youdevote a whole chapter to humor and humor
for me was a difficult one when i workedin organizations cuz i was always always.
It's in me to, to be try and bringa bit of humor to a situation,
(23:26):
particularly when it's tense, butsometimes that can be perceived as
you're a joker or you're the clown.
You're the class clown type characterwhen that's not the intent at all.
And you share a brilliant story here.
I'd love you to tell us a little bitabout humor, but also the great story
and to intrigue our audience, I'llsay, I'll give you two cows for her.
Sally Susman (23:51):
humor is hard.
Just what you, I want to double clickon what you just said about humor
can be hard in the workplace today.
And it was the hardestchapter of the 10 to write.
And more than once, Aiden, I said,I ripped it up and walked away and
said, I can't write about humor inthis environment of austere political
(24:15):
correction, correctivity of people gettingcanceled for saying the wrong thing.
And as you say, nobody wants to bethe joker and I especially I'm very
passionate about corporate communicationsand wanting to elevate the field.
And it's a terrible thing if thecommunications person is seen as
(24:35):
sort of the, the court jester inthe office that that's no good.
But I stuck with this because I don'twant to live in a world that's joyless.
And I want to be able to have a light.
and happy atmosphere inthe work environment.
We spend so much time in the office.
It needs to have a levityand a humanity to it.
(25:00):
So I opened the chapter with astory that took place in Ethiopia.
I was traveling.
Along with some Pfizer colleagues AlbertBourla, who's now my boss was then a
colleague and fellow traveling companionon this trip, which was part of the
Pfizer Foundation work reviewing whatwe do to, to help engender healthcare
(25:23):
among those who don't have good access.
We were, it was the end of a long day.
We had some jet lag.
It was very hot.
We'd been in a maternal clinic andwe were just resting for a moment
under a tree, getting ready toget back in our van and carry on.
When we saw a group from thevillage coming toward us to,
(25:45):
to seem friendly, to greet us.
And the gentleman who appearedto be the leader came up to me.
I was our trip leader.
I had been guiding and communicating.
And he said to me that hewanted to trade me for two cows.
And I just lost it.
(26:07):
And I did I pride myself on speakingand I didn't know what to say.
I, I was sputtering I am, I am a feminist.
I'm a woman leader.
I mean, this is ridiculous.
And I was just, when Albert, who'svery funny came up from behind and
(26:30):
said, sir, to the, to the gentlemen,this woman is one of the most senior
leaders at a, at a fortune 50 company.
And she will not be traded.
For less than six cows.
And with that, we all laughed mostlyme because I realized he was joking me.
(26:52):
And of course we're not going tobe traded for cows, but in a far
away place at a tired moment, I hadlost my sense of humor and I was
grateful to Albert for restoring it.
And it ended up being a lovely visitwith lots of photos and handshakes.
And.
Albert is very good at that.
He can diffuse tensecircumstances with humor.
(27:17):
And while I can't tell a joketo save my life, I probably
just proved it with that story.
But I do like to have alighthearted atmosphere.
And so one ritual I have.
Created in, in my own department isevery summer we have open mic night.
And what that is, is we doit at the end of the day.
(27:42):
We have some refreshment and we have amicrophone set up to try to make it look
like a comedy club and people get up.
I usually start and they share a recentmistake that they made and people
tell it, these stories with flourish.
And I've heard it all at this point topsecret documents left on the subway all
(28:03):
kinds of embarrassing mistakes made.
But once we share our stories andwe laugh together, the shame is
eradicated and the humanity fillsthe space and we're all better off
and we learn from doing it together.
So I think we stick with humor.
We never laugh at the expense of others.
(28:24):
I should also mention that here.
At Pfizer, we have four corporatevalues, one of which is joy.
And I think joy is very uncommonfor a value of a big pharma company.
But we, we thought about that and wethought it was important to be joyful.
And we even got into thesubstrate of what does it mean
(28:46):
to have joy as a corporate value?
And it means that.
We take our jobs seriously,but not ourselves.
And that we recognizelaughter is good medicine too.
a joyful company, humor andlightheartedness as my personal
goal its way into that chapter.
Aidan McCullen (29:06):
It's such a great ritual i love that because it's the intersection
of humor but also the seriousness ofpsychological safety where it's a safe
environment to share your mistakes andalso, when somebody see somebody else
who's a professional who's succeededin life admitting i make mistakes
too, it opens up innovation as well assuch a key part of innovation to share
(29:29):
that i love that ritual and if there'sanything, for our audience to take
away it's that one is a beautiful one.
You mentioned something though,Sally, which was the Albert burla.
And indeed throughout the book, youstart with the story of the pandemic.
And I I've had such empathy for youduring that period, because you'd
(29:51):
come from I'm X you'd come fromS day and you'd come to Pfizer.
Add a period where it wasn't the mosttrusted organization then we had these
horrific documentaries for example aboutpurdue pharma et cetera which doesn't
help your job because you're trying tochange how people view the company and
you mentioned how you joined Pfizer in twothousand seven but in the early days you
(30:15):
almost quit on multiple occasions becauseof the hostility that the company faced
and you felt very very viscerally yourselfi thought we'd share that because You're
a human being i think people forget thatthere's human beings working in all these
organizations i'm trying to change someblip that the organization has had or the
(30:37):
industry, it can be so visceral on youas a human being it can be so damning it
can be so emotionally draining as welland i'd love you to share that part that
you share in the book because it showshow human you and your colleagues are.
Sally Susman (30:52):
You bet.
And thank you for asking me about it.
The first two companies I worked for,American Express and Estee Lauder, had a
lot of reputational wind at their back.
People like these companies.
They're fun.
American Express had museum qualityAdvertising and marketing their
(31:16):
photography was done by Annie Leibovitz.
They were about travel and lifestyle.
And people just love this company.
Same is true for Estee Lauder.
As you've mentioned, founded by a greatfamily with deep roots in New York.
And, they have products thatdelight women around the world.
(31:37):
And where mostly whereverthis family goes, they're.
Red carpet is rolled down because they're,they're generous and they're kind.
But when I got a call about coming toPfizer from a recruiter, I thought, wow,
these companies make life saving medicineand yet they're pretty much reviled.
(32:00):
The reputational data showed.
big pharma companies down withoil and gas and even with tobacco.
And I guess I was naive orperhaps overly self confident
cause I thought, that's crazy.
I'm going to fix that.
This is a great challenge for me.
I'm going to go over tothe biopharma sector.
(32:20):
And fix this reputation problemand as I'd also like to just as a
slight side note to say switchingsectors is really fun because you
just are drinking from the fire hoseand you're learning all the time.
But for me I felt like I ranheadlong into a brick wall.
(32:41):
I had underestimated thecynicism towards the industry.
I started to hear from family andfriends saying, why did you go there?
These are bad.
bad places.
I, I, I sat in on focus groups where Iheard people say these companies have a
(33:05):
cure for diabetes, but they won't put itforward because insulin is so profitable.
And while Pfizer is not aninsulin company, it wasn't
personal to Pfizer to me.
It was indicative of the level of cynicismand negativity towards the industry.
So for my first 10 plus years, I wasbanging my head against that brick wall.
(33:29):
I was trying all sorts of things.
And, I like to think I was perhaps havingincremental progress, but not much.
Aidan McCullen (33:37):
So this was the environment into which you joined
five thousand seven fast forwardto the pandemic you really had
a lot on your plate and what iloved here was this is where you.
Derived all your experience, , , theinsights that you'd learned
from your parents from workingin the other organizations.
(33:57):
But you didn't just go to crisiscommunications one on one like many
organizations would have done becausethat's the safe bet you tore up everything
you knew and you leaned into your heart.
You leaned into the power of yourcolleagues as well you listen to them
just like you said earlier on about whohas ideas from lower in the echelons
(34:17):
of the organization that they can shareand that became the epiphany of the book
including how albert burla showed up.
End the crisis as well i'd love you toshare that cuz this is the genesis of
the book but also it was the genesisof your new communications approach.
When it matters most
Sally Susman (34:36):
Right.
And as I was mentioning, I wasstruggling before the pandemic and
I thought I might've been runningout of gas for this challenge.
And then it was just about four years ago.
Four years ago from now, when we'retalking, you and I, that the world
(34:56):
started to hear about this thing calledthe coronavirus and the COVID epidemic.
And Albert Bourla had gone to Greeceto give a speech at a conference.
And by the time his flightlanded, he was dead.
The conference had shut down andwe all recall that closing of
doors across society as peoplewere starting to, to hunker down
(35:20):
in anticipation of the pandemic.
So Albert had to just turn around, cameback to New York and on his flight,
he wrote on a little piece of paperthat we still have at the company
today that he had to do three things.
First, Take care of our 85, 000employees across the globe because
employee wellness became a top priority.
(35:43):
Secondly, to ensure the steadystream of medicine around the world
because horrible illnesses likecancer and Alzheimer's, they didn't
go on break during the pandemic.
And third, that we would make avaccine by the end of the year.
And this is where I thought,Oh no, it's a global pandemic.
And my boss has lost his mindbecause he was expressing
(36:06):
something that felt impossible.
Typically it would take 10 to12 years to make a vaccine.
Albert then did something I've neverseen any of the other nine CEOs do.
And that is he appointeda project manager.
Looked around the roomand it pointed himself.
And that's when I thought, well, maybe,just maybe this is going to happen.
(36:30):
And from that moment forward, the companywent about doing things very differently,
put 2 billion at risk, did not acceptgovernment money so that we would be
liberated from any strings attached.
Took a big bet on MRNA technologyjust put all chips on the table.
And when I saw this aid, and I thought,this is my moment, this I didn't know
(36:55):
in 2007, it would take until 2020 tohave my moment, but here it was, and
I want it to be very intentional aboutchanging the reputation of this company.
And so I did, I too didthings very differently.
I took some of our treasured intellectualproperty like a clinical trial protocol,
(37:17):
and put it right up on the website.
Because we didn't have threeyears to fill this trial.
We didn't have three months.
We had like three weeks.
And I embedded mediaalong for the journey.
I had two senior reportersfrom the Wall Street Journal.
And a documentary film crew from Nat Geo.
(37:37):
It was a big risk.
There were many nights I couldn'tsleep worrying that I was
filming the greatest debacle.
In corporate history, but I alsoknew that if we were successful
this would be the narrative thatthe world would need to know.
And that I couldn't go back and recreateit as because it it's, it's now history.
(38:01):
Pfizer was the first companyto find a successful M.
R.
N.
A.
Covid vaccine.
And the next when we when we found out thevaccine work the very next day, the Wall
Street Journal dropped four full pages,every detail under a wonderful headline.
(38:22):
The Pfizer vaccine, crazydeadlines and a pushy CEO.
And while that's funny, it's also true.
It was the audacity of the of theThe charge and the tenacity of
the leader that made it happen.
The film called Mission Possible isstill available on YouTube and it's 46
(38:44):
minutes of pure heaven for me to watch it.
And for the 85, 000 people who workhere, it's a, it's a chronicle,
a testimony of what we did today.
Pfizer is a top 10 global brand,according to fortune magazine and other
reputable reputation tracking sources.
And.
(39:04):
We were able to really achieveboth a scientific transformation,
but also a trust and reputationtransformation at the same time.
Aidan McCullen (39:13):
it's such a powerful story and you know i wanted to lean
into a couple of things there so onealbert got his hands dirty literally got
involved like this is something that'sso lacking with so much innovation.
Often innovation is bring in theconsultants delegated somewhere in the
organization i'll focus on messagingto the outside world or to our
(39:35):
shareholders or stakeholders i thoughtthat was such an important element.
But then also you had a differentapproach as an innovator because
one of the things i saw here was apattern that you had experienced.
A video you know a documentarybefore gone the wrong way.
When it didn't go so you'd seen this firsttime you'd seen the documentary maybe
(39:58):
you'll share that because you had beenstung in the past but yet you had the
bravery to innovate and go you know whatthis is the way forward, i'm hopefully
will drive us and hopefully we'll geta result at the end of this i love you
to share that because that that to mewas a key part that i don't know even if
you knew how brave that was because, Somany times people will have failed like
(40:21):
that or seen failure firsthand and thennot risk it once again, because the safe
bet is where innovation doesn't happen,but you actually went with something
really, really brave and it paid off.
Luckily,
Sally Susman (40:34):
Well, thank you for saying that.
I am not sure if it'sbravery or foolishness
entirely.
Exactly.
As I mentioned earlier, I lovepolitics and follow and engage
in politics very closely.
You're referring to a situationhere in New York city.
(40:55):
Where I was supporting a woman, ChristineQuinn, who had been the speaker of our
city council and was running for mayorand was the odds on favorite to win.
She was seen as the, thefront runner and the leader.
And the campaign agreed with the NewYork Times to embed a documentary film
(41:17):
crew with Chris along the way of hercampaign there was a belief it was going
to be a historic win first female mayorto possibly lead the city and this film
crew is following her around and over thecourse of the campaign, for reasons that
(41:37):
we don't have time to get into today, but.
her, her her lead started to evaporateand suddenly she wasn't necessarily going
to win and in fact had several stumblesalong the campaign trail that were
vividly videographed by this company.
And in the end, she, she didn't win.
(42:00):
She did not win the primary.
She was exited early from the race.
And that, that film is quite painfulto watch and to see the sinking
hopes of a great public servant.
And it did caution meabout , don't embed a film crew
lightly, but there is there is.
(42:21):
It's hard to say this, Aiden, butthere was a gift of this crisis
in that all bets were, were off.
And if Pfizer had failed, I think the,the, the, the trauma of that would have
been much bigger than a bad news cyclefor, for the company or the video
(42:42):
that probably nobody would have watchedthe stakes were so high and Albert's
leadership was Was really pro risk.
Albert is himself Greek, proudlyGreek, and he likes to quote Greek
philosophers to us here at the company.
And one of my favorites of his quotesis from Aristotle, where he says, Our
(43:06):
problem is not that we aim high and miss.
Our problem is when we aim low and hit.
And this was a moment wherewe were all aiming so high.
The scientists, the peoplein manufacturing, Before the
pandemic, in our best year, weproduced 200 million vaccines.
(43:30):
During the pandemic, we jumpedup to 4 and 5 billion production.
So, the whole place, was runningwith this energy and with this this
sense of purpose that is so critical.
To getting things done to innovating.
I mean, I'm sure you seethis throughout your work.
(43:50):
The higher the stakesin many ways, the better
Aidan McCullen (43:53):
Absolutely and this is something you did again with your
team and one of the things that wesee in innovation is that if you
have a vision or a mission or values.
Yes the company should have thembut each individual team or sector
within the organization must alsohave them because they're not always
(44:15):
the same but you can also embedyourself below the organizations i
want to things i love that you did.
Is that you called your team togetherand you said forget the old rules of
how we operate imagine we are foundersof a startup not a hundred and seventy
one year old company now hundred andseventy three perhaps i'm no longer in.
(44:36):
There you
go.
I'm no longer interested inplaying defense or dodging the
broadsides against our industry.
This is the moment to strikeout and break through to people.
And you said to your, toyour team, what do you think?
And what I loved here was that theirresponse, they were longing for this.
(44:57):
Something that was bigger thanthemselves and i think this is one
of the core messages of the book.
Sally Susman (45:05):
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
I do remember this moment.
Because I was at home.
Most of us were working from home becauseof our fears of, of, the pandemic and,
I have an infrequent yoga practice.
I'm not very good at it, but Ioccasionally, do a little yoga and
(45:26):
appreciate the quiet that it brings.
And there's a ritual in thebeginning of most yoga classes
where you set an intention.
The teacher asks you to set an intentionand it can be something usually
something for a loved one, a familymember, maybe resolution of a problem.
And so that morning.
I was doing a little yoga and Idecided to set this intention to
(45:49):
make the most of this moment, notknowing how it would turn out.
And as you say, I grabbed my teamand we jumped on a video call and I
started talking to them about this.
And rather than sensing they'refeeling tired or, or tired.
overwrought or worn down by this,I literally saw them rise their
(46:13):
eyes lit up, their, their, theirkind of their posture got better.
Because this is what people want to do.
And as I mentioned, I, I had gottena bit ground down over the decade.
And I am not proud to say that I didn'talways, Take this, the, the, the harder
(46:34):
road I might not tell people what Idid in my profession cause I didn't
want to get into an argument, butin this moment lives were at stake.
Literally we would think about everyday, how, how many people died.
We you'd hear it on the news thatthe need for the vaccine was urgent
(46:57):
and I suddenly felt more confident.
And I opened the aperture on thestakeholders that we would engage with.
We always, of course, it would engagewith patient groups and regulators
and, and those stakeholders close tohome in the biopharmaceutical industry.
But during the pandemic, I was invitedto speak To the restaurant workers
(47:20):
association, because they wantedto know, how do we try to get our
restaurants open in this environment?
What, when will we have vaccinesand how will they protect us?
Same that I went and engagedwith the teacher's union,
someone I'd never talked to.
And importantly for me personallyI came out from behind the scenes.
(47:42):
During my whole career, more than 30years, my job had been to help others.
To know what to say or, orwhere to go and what, how to
build bridges to stakeholders.
And because we were all running flat out,some of those opportunities turned to me.
I went on television.
(48:03):
I did more podcasts.
I gave speeches, thingsI hadn't done before.
And I wrote a book which had been alifelong ambition never before achieved
until in this moment because I wasjust driven by this intentionality and
it, it opened up new lines of thoughtfor me about, yes, communications,
(48:25):
but also leadership and connection.
So now that the pandemic is behindus, Aiden, I try to maintain a
firm, Focus on intentionality.
So this morning, for example, beforesitting down with you, I said this guy
talks to all the big shots in innovation.
(48:47):
My, my goal will be to addsomething new to the conversation
to try to my own perspective andhopefully to make it interesting.
when I'm talking to my parents,my daughter, my colleagues, my, my
boss, I try to say ahead of the.
Take 30 seconds and claim an intention.
(49:08):
It's really very powerful.
Aidan McCullen (49:10):
Beautiful and i don't know if you know what ellen
langer., she's like the mother ofmindfulness, the mother of positive
psychology, brilliant harvard professor.
And one of the things she talksabout being mindful is very similar
to the idea of intentionality.
It's actually just being presentin whatever you're doing.
And this is a nice.
(49:30):
Link to the next one where aboutbeing curious and here you can use
the word breakthrough communicatorsynonymously with an innovator you say
here breakthrough communicators arerelentlessly curious, they are interested
in things outside themselves they arevirtual so listeners and they ask probing
questions and listen mindfully, tothe answers so this is actually truly
(49:53):
being present truly listening etc.
But I wanted to share this andperhaps this is the last tenant
we'll, we'll share as well.
I absolutely loved how your owncuriosity and leaning into it and
your practice of journaling as well,that you haven't really mentioned.
You mentioned about thank you notes, butyou also journal very, very regularly,
(50:15):
the things you're grateful for, et cetera,but also note things you're curious about.
And this led to your dream intern.
And one of the things I talkabout in my work is reverse.
Reverse onboarding.
So when you have somebody who comes inas an intern in the organization or a
newcomer, rather than program them in theway things are done around here, ask them
(50:37):
to report back to you, warts and all, whatthey see that you're doing wrong with
their fresh eyes, cause you've become usedto it, but I loved how your creativity.
Flip that on its head and brought inthis dream intern and this is something
that any organization can do andapproved to be a master stroke for you.
Sally Susman (50:58):
Thank you.
I also made a note of your commentabout reverse onboarding because
it won't be long before the summerinterns arrive here at Pfizer.
And I appreciate that thought.
So thanks for this, Aiden, because Ithink there's a really interesting.
between curiosity and creativity andoften in big companies, especially those
(51:19):
that are strong marketing companies.
There's this idea that the creatives.
Are these other people?
They wear funky clothes and theyare have divine powers of creativity
and the rest of us don't have that.
I strongly reject that notion and Ibelieve all of us, each one of us,
have the power to be curious and Andthat will lead to some creativity.
(51:47):
I learned a bit about this from thedancer and choreographer Twyla Thwarp.
And she has a conceptshe calls scratching.
And scratching is simple.
It means that you just scratchthe surface of all the things
that are happening around us.
on a daily basis.
It can be as simple as taking a differentstreet when I walk home to see different
(52:10):
things, or picking up a book that's notthe typical genre that I usually read, or
going to a restaurant with a cuisine thatI've never had before, and that this kind
of simple scratching gives you big ideas.
So I had such a moment, I was flyinghome from a business trip, and I was
tired, too tired to work or even to read.
(52:33):
And so I decided to scratch a littlebit, and I looked at the movies that
they were showing on the, on the plane.
And there was one called The Intern.
And if anyone is not familiarwith that movie, it stars Robert
De Niro, who plays a retired man.
Who didn't like his retirement,felt very much on the margins and
(52:54):
joined a firm as their summer intern.
The other main character is Anne Hathaway,who plays the business boss lady,
who's lonely in the job and struggling.
It doesn't really have anyoneIn the company that she can
talk to cause she's the boss.
She and he form a close relationshipand become great friends.
(53:15):
And of course, solve alltheir mutual problems.
Happy ending.
As I'm watching this on the plane, Istart to tear up because I'm deeply
moved by this, and very next morning,I marched myself into the head of HR
at Pfizer and I said, this summer,I'm going to have a senior intern.
(53:36):
I then asked him if hewould be my summer intern.
And literally he, he tapped hisear, Aiden, cause I think he
didn't think he heard me correctly.
And I explained the concept and he toldme he had to think about it overnight.
Which I knew meant he had to askhis wife if she agreed and she did.
And we're all, we're friends.
(53:58):
And he came back to me the next dayand said, yes, he will be my intern.
And I said, well, please let meoffer you a consulting contract
because you're so senior.
He said, what do the other interns make?
18 an hour.
He said, I'll take it.
And I said, but pleaselet me give you an office.
So you have some privacy.
(54:18):
Where do the other interns sit?
He asked, I said, overhere in the bullpen.
He sat in the bullpen and hebecame this much beloved figure.
And he helped me as well with thingsthat were marinating in my mind.
But what was most incredibleis that people heard about
this thing we were doing.
(54:40):
It went a little viral.
Fast company magazine asked us about itand covered it and put us on the cover of
fast company magazine for a decade plus.
I've been trying to get Pfizer onthe cover of fast company with no
success, but this kind of quirky,Very human, simple intergenerational
(55:02):
experiment put a shine on the company.
It's a company willing todo things out of the box.
We were also invited to goonto the main stage at South by
Southwest and tell our story.
So I love, I love telling this storybecause its roots were so simple.
I watched a movie.
That sparked an idea.
And I believe as long as you give fullcredit to, from wherever, whomever
(55:27):
you're scratching, it, it can leadto really wonderful opportunities
rooted in curiosity, living in,in the freedom to be creative.
Aidan McCullen (55:38):
absolutely beautiful i have to say when i read that i was smiling
to myself i had a similar experiencewith the with the movie and it's how
i reached out to Dee Hock who is oneof the greatest mentors i ever had.
I had him on the show.
He's the founder of visa and he wrotethe forward to my book, but it all
started from watching that movie.
And I was like, there's bound to bepeople out there who are brilliant
(56:03):
and nobody's no longer going tothem because they're not just on
the circuit or whatever, etc, etc.
And it's just, I think thosekind of outside the box.
Thinking driven by creativity can if youlean into them and don't worry about how
it's gonna pan out it will always workout you'll never regret those things
(56:25):
so i absolutely love that story nowi'm gonna land the ship on something.
That you mentioned earlier on thebook but i thought it'd be a lovely
way to finish this book firstlycongratulations to you on the matrix
award and for people who don't knowwhat that is it is the highest honor,
that can be bestowed upon somebody insally's professional and communications.
(56:47):
And I loved your intentionality here.
So you mentioned that youbrought that intentionality
that you have in yoga to your
Sally Susman (56:56):
Yeah
Aidan McCullen (56:57):
and you were very nervous about this speech, but you
posed a question to the audienceat the end from your favorite poet.
I'd love you to maybe land today'sship and land today's episode.
With how you did that becausethis is so valuable to anybody
Sally Susman (57:16):
Nothing would make me happier.
Thank you for the opportunity.
And you're right.
Winning a matrix wasa very big deal to me.
It was something that for many yearsI, I wanted to achieve and they'd
come out every year with the listof winners and it wasn't on it.
And I thought, Oh, well, it'snot going to happen for me.
(57:37):
And then it did come when I washere at Pfizer, I was given the
matrix award for communications.
And all of a sudden, Aiden, after allthese years of like dying to get this
award, I panicked over what I would sayin my speech, because I guess it just
meant so much to me and it, it was avery important opportunity in my life.
(57:58):
And I did several drafts, sort ofcliche after cliche after cliche,
when I finally hunkered down andtried to get to the heart of it.
And the purpose of this organization, TheMatrix, and Women in Communication that
lead it here in New York, is not reallyto honor those of us who've done it for
a long time, but to provide scholarshipsto those rising in the profession.
(58:22):
So I decided the mostmeaningful thing I could do.
And what became my intention was tospeak directly to those young people in
this field that I care so much about.
And I was reminded of a line by oneof my favorite poets, Mary Oliver,
and her poem titled the summer day.
(58:42):
It ends with quite an evocative question.
And Mary says, tell me, whatis it you will do with your
one wild and precious life?
And I just let that question hang inthe air because, , the phrase tell
(59:04):
me is full of good pitch, right?
It means I want to know I'm listening.
And what is it you want?
Not what other people want.
And each life is truly inmy mind, wild and precious.
So it was, a very powerful moment for me.
And I hope one in which inspiredthe young women in the field,
(59:29):
helping young people in the field.
is extremely important to me.
Corporate affairs and communicationsisn't singular in how people
credential themselves for this work.
If you're the general counsel of acompany, you better have a legal degree.
If you're our head of R and D, youlikely have at least one PhD in
(59:51):
science, but in my field, people comefrom all All different backgrounds.
There are journalists, politicians, poets,philosophers, and we learn our trade
and our craft by watching others do it.
this book, Breaking Through, is myapprenticeship for people who want to
(01:00:13):
be in this field, and want to know thelived experience for doing the work.
And so I'm just again, supergrateful to you for allowing me this
opportunity and the time for answersto breathe and really thank you so
much for your interest , in the book.
Aidan McCullen (01:00:32):
i don't have a blue note to write this on
but author of breaking through.
Communicating to open mindsmove hearts and change the
world sally sussman thank you
Sally Susman (01:00:46):
Aidan, thank you.
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