March 20, 2025 • 40 mins
On this episode of The Karen Kenney Show, we explore the "Four M's" - those sneaky survival mechanisms that we sometimes picked up, while growing up, in our challenging family environments.
Inspired by a Bill Burr interview I listened to, I share how we often develop coping strategies that might have kept us safe as kids, but totally mess with our adult relationships.
I break down what the four M's are: Mothering (constantly trying to fix everyone else's problems for them), Managing (wanting to control everything and everyone around you), Manipulation (using subtle and not so subtle tactics to try to get what you want), and last but not least, Martyrdom (sacrificing yourself without being asked and then feeling resentful).
Any of this sound familiar? Trust me, I've been there. đź«
These co-dependency patterns are wicked common, especially for those of us who grew up in homes with addiction, unpredictability, uncertainty, or emotional chaos.
The real game-changer for shifting out of these behaviors is awareness.
Because once you start recognizing these patterns in yourself, you can begin to make different choices.
Please remember, it's not about beating yourself up - these were survival techniques that actually protected us at one point.
The younger you probably did the best they could with what they had – and these suckers actually worked for a while.
Now, they're just old habits that are keeping you stuck in the drama loop and prevent you from having the truly intimate and healthy relationships you want.
My big takeaway? Be curious, not judgmental. Ask yourself where these patterns came from, what/who you were trying to protect yourself from, and then start practicing self-compassion.
And if you need help… it’s out there in so many forms!
You can try to do your own inner work by reading some books or listening to a podcast or two.
Or, you can get extra support and guidance through groups like Al-Anon, ACOC, The Nest, or working 1:1 with a Spiritual Mentor like me!
I know that we can absolutely break these old cycles and create more authentic and loving connections - starting with the relationship you have with yourself.
KEY TAKEAWAYS:
•​ Inspired by Comedian Bill Burr
• Emotional Intelligence of Men from Older Generations
•​ Survival Mechanisms from the Past
• Going to Al-Anon
•​ The Four M’s
•​ Codependent Behaviors
• ​Self-Awareness + Having Compassion
• The Nest - Group Mentoring Program
BIO:
Karen Kenney is a certified Spiritual Mentor, Writer, Integrative Change Worker, Coach and Hypnotist. She’s known for her dynamic storytelling, her sense of humor, her Boston accent, and her no-BS, down-to-earth approach to Spirituality and transformational work.
KK is a wicked curious human being, a life-long learner, and has been an entrepreneur for over 20 years! She’s also a yoga teacher of 24+ years, a Certified Gateless Writing Instructor, and an author, speaker, retreat leader, and the host of The Karen Kenney Show podcast.
She coaches both the conscious + unconscious mind using practical Neuroscience, Subconscious Reprogramming, Integrative Hypnosis/Change Work, and Spiritual Mentorship. These tools help clients to regulate their nervous systems, remove blocks, rewrite stories, rewire beliefs, and reimagine what’s possible in their lives and business!
Karen encourages people to deepen their connection to Self, Source and Spirit in down-to-earth and actionable ways and wants them to have their own lived experience with spirituality and to not just “take her word for it”.
She helps people to shift their minds from fear...
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Karen Kenney (00:01):
Hey you guys, welcome to the Karen Kenney show. I'm so happy to be here with you, getting to spend a little bit of time with you. And I'm not, I have no idea
what I'm going to call this episode. I'mjust, I'm just like plugging my nose and jumping into the deep end. I might be dog paddling my way out, but let me just tell
(00:23):
you where the inspiration for this episodecame from, and why I want to talk about it. And then I'll, of course, as always, I'll tell you a little personal story. And then
we'll, we'll get into some spiritualprinciples. A lot of times, though, I think about why? Why am I sharing some spiritual principles, universal spiritual principles.
I mean, other than, of course, trying to behelpful and spread a little more love. But normally, that comes from because it is a problem. It's like, why do we usually
(00:53):
practice anything or try to solve foranything, or get quote, unquote help for anything, like, Why do I even have, like, a job in the world as a spiritual mentor, etc,
etc. It's because, usually, there's somepeople who are struggling with this whole being human experience. And trust me, me too, a lot of the ways that I learned these
tools and these, you know, perspectives andinsights and whatever that I might be sharing with you, the resources, it's because I went first. Like, I'm not saying I
(01:21):
went first for everybody, but I had to gofirst for myself before I could, you know, share anything you know. And, of course, in miracles, it says, you know, you cannot
teach what you have not first learned foryourself. So so hopefully this show is going to be helpful for some of you out there, and I'm going to, I guess I'll just dive in. So
(01:41):
I was in my car the other day, and I startedto laugh, because I just literally turned on the radio. Now I A lot of times I don't listen to anything in the car, even though I
do love music. And, you know, certain daysof the week, like NPR or nhpr, like, I'm a huge fan of things like the Moth Radio and This American Life. And, you know, there's a
(02:07):
couple of the shows on there that I like. Ilove to learn, and I especially love to hear storytelling. And one of the things so that I know is that a really good storyteller
can, like, grab my attention like that, butso can a really good accent like especially if it's a familiar accent. So I clicked on the radio the other day while I was waiting
(02:27):
in my calf or something, and all of a suddenI hear an accent and a voice, and I go, ah, the sound of my people, right? It's the sound of my people, and it's Bill Burr. And
if you don't know who Bill Burr is, BillBurr is a comedian. He's a famous comic from Massachusetts. He's been in a bunch of movies. I think he's on Broadway right now
in Glengarry. Glen Ross playing a role, buthe was on fresh air with Terry Gross, and that's one of my dream shows like, you know, once my book gets out into the world, once I
(02:58):
finished writing it, and then hopefully itgets picked up by a publisher, but I would love, love, love to be interviewed by Terry Gross. It's one of those, just one of those,
like dreams that you that I have, you know,I've had for many years. I love her interviews. I think she's really interesting. But anyways, I hear her talking
to Bill Burr. Now he has a new special outright now. I think it's called the drop dead years, or my drop dead years, or something like that. I think it's on Hulu. And so she
(03:24):
was interviewing him and talking to himabout stuff. And the reason why I'm sharing this with you is, like, why should like, Why should I give a kick? Because it's, it's
what he was saying that kind of led to andI'm going to take you down. I'm going to drop the breadcrumbs for you so you can see how it went in my brain, how it worked in my
head. So he was just basically talking aboutstuff, and he basically said something that grabbed my attention. He was talking about where the inspiration to become a comedian
(03:55):
came from. And he, like many of us, many ofus little mass holes that were raised in the late 60s and the 70s, whatever, in Massachusetts, it was kind of like a
generation of men, excuse me, that wereraising us, that really had no probably no business raising children. They had a ton of them. Maybe you had a fantastic father, and
(04:19):
if you did, God bless and Amen, unicorn,you're a unicorn. Enjoy the sparkles. But a lot of us were raised by like, men with like, absolutely no emotional intelligence.
And what's interesting is a lot of times Ido think that they thought that they were doing better than their fathers did, like they thought they had toned down their rage
and their anger and their abuse and theirtheir their approach, their approach to raising kids like maybe in their minds, they thought they were doing a better job at
(04:46):
Jesus Christ. It was a long way to go. Therewas a long way to go. So he was talking about this, the kind of, you know, the abuse and stuff that he, you know, and he hasn't
really go into details, but just he tellsenough that, you know, you can nod your head and go like, yeah, brother. To get at me too. But this is what he said. He said he
learned to be funny. He said I learned to befunny so that I could walk into a room and not have people hurt me. Oh, and when he said that, like, it just boom, it just like,
(05:13):
hit me in the hot right? I learned to befunny so that I could learn, like I could walk into rooms, and whether that was school, what like bullies, his own family,
like whatever you know, you walk into a roomand you tend to make people laugh. They tend to leave you alone. You know what I mean? And he said, I just didn't want people to
hurt me anymore. And it got me to thinkingabout as he was talking about this, it got me to thinking about how, like, some of the behaviors that he was describing, it totally
(05:40):
reminded me of growing up when you grow upin a household where there is abuse or alcoholism or whatever, right, when there is this kind of, like, un unbridled rage that
could happen in any moment. And kind of whathe was describing, I started thinking about it, and I was like, Oh my god. This is like, this is, like, where an Al Anon, meaning,
(06:03):
would, like, really, really help somebody.So it got me to thinking about Al Anon. Now, I'm sure pretty much every single person who's listening to this has heard of AA,
right, Alcoholics Anonymous, and they kindof have, like, a sister like, I think of it like a sister program, right? Or call it a cousin program, or whatever. It's a shoot
(06:23):
off of this, and it's called Al Anon. And AlAnon basically, the purpose of Al Anon is to help families of alcoholics. It is a support group for the family and the friends of
those struggling with alcohol use disorder.And I went to Al Anon many, many, many years ago. And I'm sharing this because that's what there's a few concepts within Al Anon
(06:49):
that I think are applicable to everybody.And I think a wicked, wicked helpful but, but this is how I got there, right? Is Bill Burr talking about this, and I was just
like, Oh, my God. And it got me to thinkingabout my time in Al Anon, and some of the things that I found wicked helpful, not only wicked helpful, though, but some of the
things that shown shined a spotlight onbehaviors and patterns that I have, that I can still recognize once in a while, but I can certainly see in the People around me,
(07:21):
in the relationships around me, in the worldaround me. And I thought, why not talk about these? Because maybe you'll recognize some of these behaviors or patterns in yourself.
Maybe you'll become aware of them for thefirst time. Maybe you'll get to see like, how far you've come and on your process, your journey of healing, some of these
patterns and behaviors, really survivalmechanisms, is what I call them. But first and foremost, I'll never forget, we're walking into my first Al Anon meeting and
(07:48):
just being like, what the fuck What am Igetting myself into? I was like, not a person who was like, super comfy, like sitting in a circle and talking about things
and being really vulnerable and open andjust saying stuff, right? Like revealing stuff. It was, it was a really intense like the first one, and then you just kind of get
(08:11):
used to it. You get used to the storytellingand people, you know, doing there a lot of times, right? A lot of times, when you're new to Al Anon, you're there to, like, bitch
and moan and whine about whoever you'redating, or your father or your mother or your cousin, right? You're there to just bitch and moan about whatever alcoholic you
tend to be in relationship, and it doesn'toccur to you that you're there because you're you need it because you're sick too, because you've got some issues too, right?
(08:42):
You think you're going to go, it's going tobe a room full of people who are totally going to take you aside and understand, and Oh, poor you, and you're such a victim. And
they Oh, nobody knows how hot it is, right?And then you get there, and if you're lucky, now, if you're lucky, you're going to get a sponsor, like I did. My sponsor, Laurel was
(09:03):
like, next level. I'm almost positive. Imean, that's how long it's been. I'm almost positive. Her name was Laurel, and she was short. She was she was an amputee, one of
her I don't know if it was from the kneedown or a little bit higher up. It's a long time ago, right? She did not take shit from anybody, and she certainly did not let me
(09:29):
sit in the shitty diaper whenever I wastempted to start to like, boo hoo, hoo, boo hoo, or bitch and moan and whining, complain about what my boyfriend was doing at the
time. She just was, she was one of the first
people to really, really tell me, keep thefocus on yourself. Keep the focus on yourself. Keep the focus on yourself. And it would drive me crazy, because I just wanted
(09:54):
to feel justified right in my frustration ormy situation or my problem. But let me. Just drop a couple of the I can go on and on and on, and maybe I will, maybe I'll do a whole
long thing about Al Anon, but there are,like, a couple of couple little things I want to drop with you. So the three C's that I learned in Al Anon right talking about,
(10:15):
like, somebody else's addiction. Now here'swhat's an interesting thing as I was, as I was getting ready to do this podcast and talk about this, I started to realize that
when you could just replace the word addictwith person, meaning any human being, and you could replace the word addiction with problem, meaning the things that I'm going
(10:38):
to be sharing with you, because I don't, Ihope you stick around. You might be like, Oh, I'm I don't know any alcoholics or, Oh, this is it has nothing to do with me, trust
me, I bet it does. And stick around becausea lot of this is also just quote, unquote, survival mechanisms in human behavior. But I got there through the lens of Al Anon. Okay,
so Al Anon has the three C's, which is,like, I didn't cause it, I can't control it, and I can't cure it right now, this could apply to somebody else's drinking, but it
(11:06):
can also apply to 1000 other behaviors. Andhere's the reality other people, and whether that is your sweetie, you're a partner, your siblings, your parents, your children,
whatever it is they have. I often have toremind my clients, you know your kids, your whoever, your your husband, your wife, your girlfriend, your partner, your boss,
(11:30):
whoever. Right it's like they have their owncomma, they have their own dama, they have their own individual curriculum. They have their own they have their own journey that
they have to take. They have their ownspiritual team. They have their own divine helpers, right? We cannot, we cannot take on the responsibility of like other people to
(11:53):
that level. Now, of course, if you have likelittle kids, right, you are responsible for them. Like use, let's use our common sense here, right? And know, like, there's going
to be exceptions to the rule. But if we'retalking about, like, you know, grown ass, like, grown ass adults and people who are coming into their adulthood, right,
whatever's going on with them most of thetime, right? Probably 90% of that, you didn't cause. You can't control it. You can't cure it, especially when we're talking
(12:20):
about that stuff, but here's the thing, wedo have choices, and that's kind of what I want to talk about tonight, is some of the behaviors that we may have picked up along
the way to try to survive our childhoods, tosurvive our life, and to survive what was going on in a time when we felt really out of control. Because when you're a little
kid, you don't really have a lot of power,do you? You don't have a lot of control. You're at the mercy of the older people who around you, your environment, your
(12:49):
experiences, the people who have the powerand the people who like supposed to keep a roof over your head, feed you, love you, educate, you, take care of you, like
whatever it is, and a lot of times we don'thave a say, right? We don't have a say as children. So here's the thing, but we do now as adults, have choices. Now we can look
(13:11):
back at some of these patterns that I'mabout to talk about and go like, Oh yeah, check some boxes. Like, so I'm going to talk to you about what we call the four M's. Oh,
the four M's and the four M's in Al Anon,when we talk about this. But again, even if we're not talking about Al Anon, I see these behaviors just in people all the time. I've
(13:32):
seen them in myself, when I see one, when Isee an old Pat and trying to rear its head man, I try to get right down to the business of acknowledging it, right? So first of all,
you have to have awareness that you evenhave the problem. Then you have to kind of accept that this situation is there, right? You can't change something you don't even
(13:53):
know is going on. So the awareness is key.And then you have to kind of accept it. And then before you get into action, that's why I always say we need to get into alignment
with our core values, or we need to get intoalignment with the God of our own understanding. We need to get into alignment with love before we can take any action.
Okay, but here are the four M's and thesesuckers, all right, so they're mothering, managing, manipulation and mad Adam. All right, let me say those again, these
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behaviors that I'm talking about that areoften, first of all, wicked counter productive to our own well being, and they are also, they kind of keep us in a cycle of
drama. It's exhausting, isn't it? So let mesay the four M's again, mothering, managing, manipulation and mode of them. And let's just kind of break these down and how they
(14:46):
might show up in our day to day lives andand a lot of times, like I said, these behaviors come into being, especially, especially if you learn them at a really
young age. Age, and if you are an adultchild, now an adult child, right? You used to be a child. Now you're an adult, but you are now you're an adult child. Of
(15:09):
alcoholics. A lot of these patterns ofbehavior are probably and, you know, they say The Force is strong. The force is strong in you. And this one, the force of these
four M's, is probably really strong. Butlet's break each one down, and that way you can see if you recognize any of these within yourself. So mothering kind of refers to
(15:29):
when you try to take on the role ofcaretaker or parenting to someone who is struggling with whatever. It could be an addiction. It could be like they can't get
their financial shit together. It can betheir health, their wellness. They're not taking their pills for their you know, maybe they had a diagnosis of a disease and
(15:49):
they're not doing what they need to do. Orthey've been told, Hey, if you don't stop smoking, like, if you don't get your body moving, you're gonna like, blah, blah. But
this, this mothering thing, is when you tryto take on the role of caretaker, of parent, of someone who's struggling with something, but it's at the expense of your own well
being. It's at the expense of your ownneeds. And you try to kind of take on responsibility for things that are not yours to do. It's not yours. It never was yours,
(16:16):
right? But yet you try to get in there andmother it, mother. It like a mother. Bugger. You know what I'm saying? Like, you just get up in other people's business and you try to
just, like, take care and make sure and allthat stuff. And if you can, if you can, if you can see this behavior in yourself. Now, look, some of you're gonna say, but I am a
(16:39):
mother. Isn't that my role? I would say,like to a point, right? Of course, not when they're little kids, not when they're early teens, right? You know, as a parent, there's
gonna come a point you have to let your kidsfail. You have to let your kids make mistakes. You cannot. I always say, we cannot save people from themselves at a
(17:03):
certain age and a certain point, you have tolet people be adults. They have to learn to self parent. They have to learn to use their own inner wisdom, their own internal
teacher, to start making better choices. Soif you're caught in that mothering loop, maybe just take, you know, just step back, try to see it from an outside perspective,
(17:26):
and see if this is something that you have,a pattern of behavior that you've acquired. And a lot of times we're trying to do these four M's because we feel out of control, and
we feel like, if I can just control this,right? We think we're doing it for them, but really we're doing it for ourselves. And I'll talk more about this at the end. Okay,
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the next one is managing. Oh my god, thisis, this is when you try to, like, control or fix the problem of the person who's struggling. You don't let them again. You
don't let them, you don't allow them to takeresponsibility for their actions and their choices. So you try to do everything, even like controlling the environment. Now, those
(18:13):
of you for sure, for sure, who grew up with
alcoholism in your family when you were akid, you're going to recognize some of these. These these are just some of the ones that I came up with. So you're always kind
of like scanning your environment. Right forme, I was always aware of the energy in the room. I was always, I say, I was always watching myself out this forehead, like for
(18:37):
signs, I always say, the landscape of hisforehead. I was always looking like and noticing, like what he was doing with his face, because it was always an early
indication of like, what was about to godown. So we do things like, we're hyper aware of other people's body language, the energy in the room. We're always continually
taking like the temperature, quote, unquote,the temperature of the room, right? We walk on eggshells around the addict, or we walk on eggshells just around people. So remember
(19:07):
this, I'm not just talking about, you know,people who have addictions. I'm just talking about people, and people when we grow up in those kind of unsafe, unsure, uncertain
environments, those egg Shelly environmentswe tend to carry unless we do some big work on ourselves when we're younger, we tend to carry these behaviors into our adult
(19:28):
relationships, and then we often wonder whythey don't work out right. And it's like, we think it's because, oh, because they're drinking, or they're doing this, or because
they're doing that, or they're doingwhatever, and it's like, no, it's like, because we need help too, because we're sick too, because we grew up in sick
environments, you know what I mean. So wetry to, like, walk on eggshells. We try to do all this stuff because we don't want to cause the other person to either, quote,
(19:53):
unquote, drink or we don't want the otherperson to get mad at us, going right back to Bill Burr, right. I try to behave this way and manage everything, and manage my
environment and manage everybody so that Idon't get hurt, which is so sad when you think about it, but we haven't learned a better way yet, sometimes and until we start
(20:15):
to gather some tools that will help us. Thisis kind of what we do. Another thing that people do is they try to, like, just put on, like, they just pour pink paint over
everything. They just try to pretend likethere isn't a problem. They just, like, hide behaviors of the people who are not doing the great things. They just, like, make up
lies and excuses. And they just try topretend like everything is perfect and nothing's going on. Like, don't look behind the curtain. Like, don't, don't Wizard of
(20:38):
Oz. That's like, don't look over there,right? And that's another way of trying to, like, manage people and manage the environment and manage everything, and it's
fucking exhausting. Okay? The next one ismanipulation. This is the third M. This is when we try to use as that. We would call, like, controlling tactics or deceptive
(21:02):
tactics to try to influence the behavior orthe decisions of others. I'll say that again, we use controlling tactics or deceptive ways to try to influence the
behavior or the decisions of others, and weoften do this so that we don't have to avoid. First of all, so they don't have to avoid but also, mostly so we don't have to
(21:24):
avoid facing difficult situations or uncomfyemotions. You know, sometimes we're not even aware that. You tell somebody they're being manipulative, and they'll be like, No, I'm
not. I'm just trying to do something nice.No, I'm just trying to x, y and z, because here's the thing, it's not always conscious. So many of our learned behaviors and our
(21:48):
patterns are deeply, deeply subconscious.That's why in the work that I do, I always say we work with both the conscious and the unconscious. That's why there's like
subconscious reprogramming in the work thatI do, because we're not even aware that we're doing it. And I'm sure you have noticed something, a behavior in somebody
else, like it's easy to recognize sometimesin other people, but we often don't see it in ourselves. And it's also because, first of all, we don't like to think of ourselves
(22:17):
being manipulative. We can't recognize itbecause it's not conscious, but also because manipulation takes on a lot of different forms, it wears a lot of different outfits
and costumes. You know what I'm saying? Sohere's here's the thing. Manipulation takes lots of forms, things like setting up a situation to achieve a desired outcome. So
(22:38):
you don't trust that things are going tounfold. You don't just let things lie. Right? To me, the manipulation has kind of like, there's, there's, and with all of
these, really, with all four M's, there's anunderlying anxiety. There's a tension there. And I'm doing this thing with my hand where my palm is open and my fingers are red,
white, and my hand is like shaking. There'slike this hum, this like uncertain hum in the background, which is this uncertainty, this fear, right? That's what anxiety is.
(23:04):
And a lot of times when we feel that anxiousthing like we feel like we have to do something, we have to we have to react. We have to like mother or manage or manipulate.
Another thing that manipulation looks likeis passive aggressive behavior. Maybe find yourself, maybe slamming the the door a little too loud, stomping your feet a little
(23:25):
too loud, doing that big sigh, doing thatbig sigh, hoping somebody's going to ask you what's wrong. Are you okay? Oh, my God, the Academy Award goes to, oh, the Oscar goes to
(23:49):
for Performance of the Year. Okay, buthere's another one. I don't know how people are gonna feel when I say this one out loud, but here's the truth. Another little
manipulation. Is people pleasing. Peoplepleasing. So think about it. Why? Why do we people please? Bill Burr manipulation was being funny. That was his survival
(24:12):
technique. Because if I do this and I getpeople to like me, they won't hurt me. You do it because you want other people to like you. That's why you people please. You want
them to like you. You want them to love you.You want them to give you their approval. You want them to say, good girl, good boy, good person. Pat on the head, right? But
(24:34):
trying to get a need met. It's in, it'swrapped, it's wrapped. It's like, it's like, you know those little nesting dolls. It's like, under the under the under the under
the under like, inside it, inside it, insideit. Why do I do this? Oh, because it's really easy to think you're a good person when you're doing everything for everybody
all the time. Which leads us to mod Adam,right, being a moda. Yeah, that fourth m and this one involves when you sacrifice your own needs. You just are trying to just like,
(25:09):
please everybody, serve others, right? Youjust don't care about your own well being. You go out of your way. You go above and beyond. You fucking circ to select yourself
to kingdom come. Oh, my God, I am nostranger. I'm no stranger to any of these. PS, by the way, all right, I can recognize these old patterns and they that river runs
(25:33):
deep, but but we can really learn ways torecognize what we're doing. And the reason why this is what I said, I made a note to self. Modigl is a fast track to suffering
and resentment. Do you remember? I don'tknow if you were I think I said it on the cab episode. I was talking about how underneath all, like so many smiling, nice
(25:56):
women, is like boiling rage. And rage isunder the under, the under of a lot of mad as well. So Mata dim often leads to feelings of resentment and burnt out. Because when
you try to do it all, and you try to do itall alone, first of all, when you try to do it all for the all, like for everyone, and you try to do it all alone, when you feel
(26:21):
like that, you're going to feel like you'resacrificing so much of your time, your energy, your love, your money, your resources, and then you feel like your
efforts go entirely unnoticed. And then whathappens you get you get your panties in a bunch, get a little cranky pants. Give you have yourself a little tantrum, a little
(26:44):
tizzy, right? You get yourself a littleadult tantrum. You get a little Po, you're a little pissed off. Why can't people see how I do everything all the time for everybody
and nobody appreciate do they even say thankyou? Do they even notice? Oh, my God, I still this is one for me where,
(27:09):
you know, I've had to learn. I've had tolearn, especially with my sweetie, right? I'm quick to say thank you. I'm usually pretty quick to notice things and to say
thank you, and whatever. And I had to learnliving with my sweetie that he takes a little bit longer to get around to using his words and if I just And first of all,
(27:30):
hopefully we're doing things because we wantto do them. Now, of course, there will be times in our life where we do something, maybe we don't really want to do it, but
it's the right thing to do. So you do itright? But hopefully we're doing things as adults because we want to do them. And it's not transactional. It's not tit for tat.
We're not just sitting around waiting forthe Thank you. I've had people in my life who are just like it almost doesn't feel like a gift they've given you, because they
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give you the thing, and you can just tellthey're sitting there with their fucking little watch, waiting for their Thank you, waiting for the acknowledgement, and it kind
of sucks some of the fun and the joy out ofit a little bit. But I am no stranger to that quality of feeling like that, especially like back in the day. I've done
some good work around this. I've done somegood work around this, but here's a little tip. Here's a little tip. So if you feel yourself in that you're sitting in the
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shitty diaper of martyrdom and you're justfeeling like everything you do goes unnoticed or underappreciated or unappreciated. Here's a good question.
Here's a good I learned this All right.Hello. Thank you. Thank you, Laurel. Thank you Al Anon for this. I learned this question, but did they ask for my help with
this? Did they ask for my help with this? Ordid I just take it upon myself to Cirque du Soleil myself? Did I just take it upon myself to talk and turn and go out of my way
(28:56):
and drive the 20 miles or go to the store orpick up the thing or by the present or do their what, whatever it is. Did they ask for that help? Or did I take it upon myself?
Because this is when your moda Jim combineswith manipulation of that people pleasing. Well, here's Bill Burr. If I'm just funny, they won't hurt me. Well, the other version
(29:20):
of that, well, if I just do everything forthem all the time, they'll love me, and then they won't want to get rid of me. So a lot of this is tied into like 1000 things, but
like things like fears of fear ofabandonment, fear of not being good enough, feel of fear of not being worthy, fear of not being lovable. You know what I mean? So
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if, if you ask that question, well, did theyask me to do this? Did they ask me for my help with this? Did they ask me to help them? And the answer is no, well, then don't
be surprised that you don't get a thank you,because we see it as helping when here's another m, they might see it as. Meddling, but I didn't ask you to do that. I didn't
(30:03):
ask you to come to my house and X, Y and Z.I didn't ask you to fold my clothes. I didn't ask you to buy me the thing. You took it upon yourself, and now you're going to be
mad at me because you're up in my businessand meddling, and you see that as love, and I just see it as being controlling. Oh my god, you know what I mean. So look, the
important thing to remember here, I want tosay this, this part's important. So, lean in, lean in. Listen, right, these four M's, the mothering, the managing, the
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manipulation and the martyrdom. They comefrom a wound. They are survival mechanisms, things that kept you in some instances, alive. So we're not here to shame ourselves.
We're not here to blame earlier versions ofourselves, those earlier younger versions of us, those younger parts of us were just trying to survive, our experiences, our
(31:01):
environments, right, the situations that wefound ourselves in, the families that we were born into. It wasn't by choice, a lot of it wasn't by choice, but it became us,
and we were just dog paddling in the deepend, trying to keep our head above water. And we learned some, you know, trauma responses. We learn some patterns of
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behavior, but now what happens is, when weget older, they're no longer working right. In fact, they're getting in the way of the thing that we want the most, which is, like
intimate, and I don't mean intimate, likesexual, but intimate connection with other humans, like intimate relationships, relationships where you can have deep
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vulnerability and connection, where you canreally let yourself be seen and not feel like you have to be perfect, like, if I'm not perfect, they won't love me. They'll
kick me out. They'll get rid of me. They'llbreak up with me. They'll leave me. They won't want to be my friend. They won't want to buy my product, they won't want to
whatever, right? But this is not a way tolive anymore. It got us to a point, and it was helpful to a point, and now there are better ways of being. There are better ways
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of being. And if you're like, I don't knowwhat those are, right, like, I don't know, like, I don't have those tools. Well, here's the thing, there is a lot of help out there.
There's a lot of literature, there's a lotof resources. There are groups, and there are people like me who are spiritual mentors and coaches and stuff like that, right? So
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there are groups like Al Anon. Like, ifyou're recognizing yourself in these, right? And you've never been to an Al Anon group, I highly recommend it just going and checking
it out. Give it a few like, like they saywhen you when you first go to AA or whatever. I know a lot of friends in AA, and they always say, like, when you're trying to
(32:56):
find your home meeting. That meeting is, Ialways say, I equate it to like when you're trying to find your yoga studio. Like, when you're trying to find your yoga studio, I
always say, like, go to six classes, go tosix like, go to different places, go to different teachers, go to different classes, and try to find the good fit for you. And
it's the same thing with any one of thesegroups, right? A lot of times people try to find them in their hometown. Sometimes people don't want to be known in their
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hometown, so they go to a neighboring town,whatever. But Al Anon can be a really powerful thing. There's also a co a groups adult children of alcoholics, groups those,
and I think it's actually adult children ofalcoholics and dysfunctional families. Oh, my God. It makes me laugh every time I think of it or see it. But because, hello, hello,
(33:43):
who didn't, who didn't grow I mean, all ofus should just go to that meeting, right? Who didn't grow up in a dysfunctional family? Holy shit, right? But this is the
thing, one of the things that we can do whenwe find ourselves doing a lot of these M's right, a lot of these M's right, is to learn to like do another m, which is myself, learn
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to keep the focus on ourselves. So much ofthe mothering, the managing, the manipulation and the martyrdom comes because we feel out of control within ourselves. We
don't have yet what ashwaran, my teacher,ashwaran, talks about like that Sanctum Sanctorum. It's in there. We're just not aware of it. We do not have the location. We
(34:24):
do not have the GPS. We are not aware of thelongitude and the latitude of our own inner peace, where the love is, right? We're not always quite sure how to get there. We need
a map. There's another m we need a map. AndI'm really like, I love to help people. I love people. I love. Well, I do love people, but I love to help people come back home to
(34:44):
the longitude and latitude of love, to comeback to the truth of themselves, where they can find that inner peace, where they can find that love, and to give them a ton of
tools. So if any of this resonates with you,you can either come join the nest, right? I always say Karen Kenney died. Com slash nest. Find out about my group program, my
group coaching program, beautiful, communityof human beings, lovely, glorious. It's a blast. We have so much fun. And also, you could work with me one to one in what I call
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the quest, which is one to one spiritualmentoring. But I bring to it all the tools, all the skills that I have, right? And it brings together, like my spiritual
mentoring, subconscious reprogramming. I'malso a hypnotist, right? So conversational hypnosis, subconscious reprogramming, the somatic, so it's like the physical, the
emotional, the mental, the spiritual, mind,body, spirit, all coming down to like love. It's the love. It's all about the love. That's what it's about, right? And so I hope
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this has given you some things to thinkabout. I always say, I'm not here to tell you what to think, but it's always an invitation to think more critically, more
deeply, to become more self aware and reallylike when we talk about spreading love in the world, one of the one of the best ways that we can spread love is to be more self
aware, to understand how we are showing upin the world. And I always say, right, going the difference between going out into the world, inflicting yourself on people, versus
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going out in a more inspired way, right?With, with, with connection to something greater than you, the God of your own understanding, and showing up from that
place, grounded in a place of love, so thatwe are choosing our actions rather just reacting out of trauma and habit and patterns. Um, so, yeah. So be kind to
(36:31):
yourself if you do recognize some of thesethings again, this is not about shaming ourselves. This is more about like, shining a spotlight and going like, Oh, this is so
interesting. I do do that. What's thatabout? Like, asking these questions of ourselves. When did I learn that? When did I learn that behavior?
(36:52):
Why did that become a good idea? Like, whydid that? What was I trying to like, protect myself from? You know, it's always not like that, that, that question, right, that
spiritual question of like, not like, Whatthe fuck is wrong with you? Like, why do you do that? Why didn't you do that? It's more like what happened to you. Because these
things are a response. They are a reactionto some shit that went down in our own lives. And there's a reason why, if you find yourself and Al Anon, because here's the
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truth is, a lot of times you might have comeup in a home that was really dysfunctional because of these patterns of addiction and behavior, but then it becomes what you know,
and the brain is always looking for whatit's what's familiar. You've heard me say it before, right? The brain would rather keep you in an unsafe known rather than a safe
(37:44):
unknown. It doesn't like the uncertainty,even if the outcome could be a gazillion times more positive. So be kind. Kind. Be curious, not judgmental. Be kind, not cruel
to yourself. What you need right now is yourown compassion, not your contempt, if you recognize yourself in some of these behaviors, okay? And just thank you so much
(38:08):
for listening. If you're still here fortuning in, I super duper appreciate it. And it is always, like I said, it's always my desire to be helpful in some way, and even
that, like I've talked about this, I'vejoked about this before in the show, why am I such a helper? Pat Lee, yes, because I am of the generation of Bob Ross and Mr. Rogers
and Sesame Street and the Muppets and zoomand like all these shows that, like that taught us about our humanity, right, and how to be decent human beings, because a lot of
(38:37):
us weren't getting it in our homes, youknow? And so we had some really great educational systems. So yeah, there's a part of me that loves to naturally help, and
being a good helper is one of the waysright, that you stayed safe. That's that people pleasing pot, and that people pleasing muscle is one that I have had to
(38:59):
try and let with uh, let it atrophy a littlebit as I've gotten older, you know. So I can still see it in there. I can still see it in there. Every once in a while, it wants to,
like, do everything for everybody. And I'mlike, you can't. You cannot make everybody happy. It's just impossible. And certainly the one person who won't be happy if you're
caught in that if you're caught in thatloop. If you are caught in that pattern, in that cycle of drama, that cycle of trying to do it all for everyone, all on your own, is
(39:29):
you're going to end up really unhappyyourself. So you guys, thank you so much for being here, wherever you go, wherever you go. May you leave the people, the place, the
animals, the environment and yourself betterthan when you first found it. Wherever you go, may you and your presence in your energy and your love be a blessing. Bye, you.
Hey you guys, welcome to the Karen Kenney show. I'm so happy to be here with you, getting to spend a little bit of time with you. And I'm not, I have no idea
what I'm going to call this episode. I'mjust, I'm just like plugging my nose and jumping into the deep end. I might be dog paddling my way out, but let me just tell
(00:23):
you where the inspiration for this episodecame from, and why I want to talk about it. And then I'll, of course, as always, I'll tell you a little personal story. And then
we'll, we'll get into some spiritualprinciples. A lot of times, though, I think about why? Why am I sharing some spiritual principles, universal spiritual principles.
I mean, other than, of course, trying to behelpful and spread a little more love. But normally, that comes from because it is a problem. It's like, why do we usually
(00:53):
practice anything or try to solve foranything, or get quote, unquote help for anything, like, Why do I even have, like, a job in the world as a spiritual mentor, etc,
etc. It's because, usually, there's somepeople who are struggling with this whole being human experience. And trust me, me too, a lot of the ways that I learned these
tools and these, you know, perspectives andinsights and whatever that I might be sharing with you, the resources, it's because I went first. Like, I'm not saying I
(01:21):
went first for everybody, but I had to gofirst for myself before I could, you know, share anything you know. And, of course, in miracles, it says, you know, you cannot
teach what you have not first learned foryourself. So so hopefully this show is going to be helpful for some of you out there, and I'm going to, I guess I'll just dive in. So
(01:41):
I was in my car the other day, and I startedto laugh, because I just literally turned on the radio. Now I A lot of times I don't listen to anything in the car, even though I
do love music. And, you know, certain daysof the week, like NPR or nhpr, like, I'm a huge fan of things like the Moth Radio and This American Life. And, you know, there's a
(02:07):
couple of the shows on there that I like. Ilove to learn, and I especially love to hear storytelling. And one of the things so that I know is that a really good storyteller
can, like, grab my attention like that, butso can a really good accent like especially if it's a familiar accent. So I clicked on the radio the other day while I was waiting
(02:27):
in my calf or something, and all of a suddenI hear an accent and a voice, and I go, ah, the sound of my people, right? It's the sound of my people, and it's Bill Burr. And
if you don't know who Bill Burr is, BillBurr is a comedian. He's a famous comic from Massachusetts. He's been in a bunch of movies. I think he's on Broadway right now
in Glengarry. Glen Ross playing a role, buthe was on fresh air with Terry Gross, and that's one of my dream shows like, you know, once my book gets out into the world, once I
(02:58):
finished writing it, and then hopefully itgets picked up by a publisher, but I would love, love, love to be interviewed by Terry Gross. It's one of those, just one of those,
like dreams that you that I have, you know,I've had for many years. I love her interviews. I think she's really interesting. But anyways, I hear her talking
to Bill Burr. Now he has a new special outright now. I think it's called the drop dead years, or my drop dead years, or something like that. I think it's on Hulu. And so she
(03:24):
was interviewing him and talking to himabout stuff. And the reason why I'm sharing this with you is, like, why should like, Why should I give a kick? Because it's, it's
what he was saying that kind of led to andI'm going to take you down. I'm going to drop the breadcrumbs for you so you can see how it went in my brain, how it worked in my
head. So he was just basically talking aboutstuff, and he basically said something that grabbed my attention. He was talking about where the inspiration to become a comedian
(03:55):
came from. And he, like many of us, many ofus little mass holes that were raised in the late 60s and the 70s, whatever, in Massachusetts, it was kind of like a
generation of men, excuse me, that wereraising us, that really had no probably no business raising children. They had a ton of them. Maybe you had a fantastic father, and
(04:19):
if you did, God bless and Amen, unicorn,you're a unicorn. Enjoy the sparkles. But a lot of us were raised by like, men with like, absolutely no emotional intelligence.
And what's interesting is a lot of times Ido think that they thought that they were doing better than their fathers did, like they thought they had toned down their rage
and their anger and their abuse and theirtheir their approach, their approach to raising kids like maybe in their minds, they thought they were doing a better job at
(04:46):
Jesus Christ. It was a long way to go. Therewas a long way to go. So he was talking about this, the kind of, you know, the abuse and stuff that he, you know, and he hasn't
really go into details, but just he tellsenough that, you know, you can nod your head and go like, yeah, brother. To get at me too. But this is what he said. He said he
learned to be funny. He said I learned to befunny so that I could walk into a room and not have people hurt me. Oh, and when he said that, like, it just boom, it just like,
(05:13):
hit me in the hot right? I learned to befunny so that I could learn, like I could walk into rooms, and whether that was school, what like bullies, his own family,
like whatever you know, you walk into a roomand you tend to make people laugh. They tend to leave you alone. You know what I mean? And he said, I just didn't want people to
hurt me anymore. And it got me to thinkingabout as he was talking about this, it got me to thinking about how, like, some of the behaviors that he was describing, it totally
(05:40):
reminded me of growing up when you grow upin a household where there is abuse or alcoholism or whatever, right, when there is this kind of, like, un unbridled rage that
could happen in any moment. And kind of whathe was describing, I started thinking about it, and I was like, Oh my god. This is like, this is, like, where an Al Anon, meaning,
(06:03):
would, like, really, really help somebody.So it got me to thinking about Al Anon. Now, I'm sure pretty much every single person who's listening to this has heard of AA,
right, Alcoholics Anonymous, and they kindof have, like, a sister like, I think of it like a sister program, right? Or call it a cousin program, or whatever. It's a shoot
(06:23):
off of this, and it's called Al Anon. And AlAnon basically, the purpose of Al Anon is to help families of alcoholics. It is a support group for the family and the friends of
those struggling with alcohol use disorder.And I went to Al Anon many, many, many years ago. And I'm sharing this because that's what there's a few concepts within Al Anon
(06:49):
that I think are applicable to everybody.And I think a wicked, wicked helpful but, but this is how I got there, right? Is Bill Burr talking about this, and I was just
like, Oh, my God. And it got me to thinkingabout my time in Al Anon, and some of the things that I found wicked helpful, not only wicked helpful, though, but some of the
things that shown shined a spotlight onbehaviors and patterns that I have, that I can still recognize once in a while, but I can certainly see in the People around me,
(07:21):
in the relationships around me, in the worldaround me. And I thought, why not talk about these? Because maybe you'll recognize some of these behaviors or patterns in yourself.
Maybe you'll become aware of them for thefirst time. Maybe you'll get to see like, how far you've come and on your process, your journey of healing, some of these
patterns and behaviors, really survivalmechanisms, is what I call them. But first and foremost, I'll never forget, we're walking into my first Al Anon meeting and
(07:48):
just being like, what the fuck What am Igetting myself into? I was like, not a person who was like, super comfy, like sitting in a circle and talking about things
and being really vulnerable and open andjust saying stuff, right? Like revealing stuff. It was, it was a really intense like the first one, and then you just kind of get
(08:11):
used to it. You get used to the storytellingand people, you know, doing there a lot of times, right? A lot of times, when you're new to Al Anon, you're there to, like, bitch
and moan and whine about whoever you'redating, or your father or your mother or your cousin, right? You're there to just bitch and moan about whatever alcoholic you
tend to be in relationship, and it doesn'toccur to you that you're there because you're you need it because you're sick too, because you've got some issues too, right?
(08:42):
You think you're going to go, it's going tobe a room full of people who are totally going to take you aside and understand, and Oh, poor you, and you're such a victim. And
they Oh, nobody knows how hot it is, right?And then you get there, and if you're lucky, now, if you're lucky, you're going to get a sponsor, like I did. My sponsor, Laurel was
(09:03):
like, next level. I'm almost positive. Imean, that's how long it's been. I'm almost positive. Her name was Laurel, and she was short. She was she was an amputee, one of
her I don't know if it was from the kneedown or a little bit higher up. It's a long time ago, right? She did not take shit from anybody, and she certainly did not let me
(09:29):
sit in the shitty diaper whenever I wastempted to start to like, boo hoo, hoo, boo hoo, or bitch and moan and whining, complain about what my boyfriend was doing at the
time. She just was, she was one of the first
people to really, really tell me, keep thefocus on yourself. Keep the focus on yourself. Keep the focus on yourself. And it would drive me crazy, because I just wanted
(09:54):
to feel justified right in my frustration ormy situation or my problem. But let me. Just drop a couple of the I can go on and on and on, and maybe I will, maybe I'll do a whole
long thing about Al Anon, but there are,like, a couple of couple little things I want to drop with you. So the three C's that I learned in Al Anon right talking about,
(10:15):
like, somebody else's addiction. Now here'swhat's an interesting thing as I was, as I was getting ready to do this podcast and talk about this, I started to realize that
when you could just replace the word addictwith person, meaning any human being, and you could replace the word addiction with problem, meaning the things that I'm going
(10:38):
to be sharing with you, because I don't, Ihope you stick around. You might be like, Oh, I'm I don't know any alcoholics or, Oh, this is it has nothing to do with me, trust
me, I bet it does. And stick around becausea lot of this is also just quote, unquote, survival mechanisms in human behavior. But I got there through the lens of Al Anon. Okay,
so Al Anon has the three C's, which is,like, I didn't cause it, I can't control it, and I can't cure it right now, this could apply to somebody else's drinking, but it
(11:06):
can also apply to 1000 other behaviors. Andhere's the reality other people, and whether that is your sweetie, you're a partner, your siblings, your parents, your children,
whatever it is they have. I often have toremind my clients, you know your kids, your whoever, your your husband, your wife, your girlfriend, your partner, your boss,
(11:30):
whoever. Right it's like they have their owncomma, they have their own dama, they have their own individual curriculum. They have their own they have their own journey that
they have to take. They have their ownspiritual team. They have their own divine helpers, right? We cannot, we cannot take on the responsibility of like other people to
(11:53):
that level. Now, of course, if you have likelittle kids, right, you are responsible for them. Like use, let's use our common sense here, right? And know, like, there's going
to be exceptions to the rule. But if we'retalking about, like, you know, grown ass, like, grown ass adults and people who are coming into their adulthood, right,
whatever's going on with them most of thetime, right? Probably 90% of that, you didn't cause. You can't control it. You can't cure it, especially when we're talking
(12:20):
about that stuff, but here's the thing, wedo have choices, and that's kind of what I want to talk about tonight, is some of the behaviors that we may have picked up along
the way to try to survive our childhoods, tosurvive our life, and to survive what was going on in a time when we felt really out of control. Because when you're a little
kid, you don't really have a lot of power,do you? You don't have a lot of control. You're at the mercy of the older people who around you, your environment, your
(12:49):
experiences, the people who have the powerand the people who like supposed to keep a roof over your head, feed you, love you, educate, you, take care of you, like
whatever it is, and a lot of times we don'thave a say, right? We don't have a say as children. So here's the thing, but we do now as adults, have choices. Now we can look
(13:11):
back at some of these patterns that I'mabout to talk about and go like, Oh yeah, check some boxes. Like, so I'm going to talk to you about what we call the four M's. Oh,
the four M's and the four M's in Al Anon,when we talk about this. But again, even if we're not talking about Al Anon, I see these behaviors just in people all the time. I've
(13:32):
seen them in myself, when I see one, when Isee an old Pat and trying to rear its head man, I try to get right down to the business of acknowledging it, right? So first of all,
you have to have awareness that you evenhave the problem. Then you have to kind of accept that this situation is there, right? You can't change something you don't even
(13:53):
know is going on. So the awareness is key.And then you have to kind of accept it. And then before you get into action, that's why I always say we need to get into alignment
with our core values, or we need to get intoalignment with the God of our own understanding. We need to get into alignment with love before we can take any action.
Okay, but here are the four M's and thesesuckers, all right, so they're mothering, managing, manipulation and mad Adam. All right, let me say those again, these
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behaviors that I'm talking about that areoften, first of all, wicked counter productive to our own well being, and they are also, they kind of keep us in a cycle of
drama. It's exhausting, isn't it? So let mesay the four M's again, mothering, managing, manipulation and mode of them. And let's just kind of break these down and how they
(14:46):
might show up in our day to day lives andand a lot of times, like I said, these behaviors come into being, especially, especially if you learn them at a really
young age. Age, and if you are an adultchild, now an adult child, right? You used to be a child. Now you're an adult, but you are now you're an adult child. Of
(15:09):
alcoholics. A lot of these patterns ofbehavior are probably and, you know, they say The Force is strong. The force is strong in you. And this one, the force of these
four M's, is probably really strong. Butlet's break each one down, and that way you can see if you recognize any of these within yourself. So mothering kind of refers to
(15:29):
when you try to take on the role ofcaretaker or parenting to someone who is struggling with whatever. It could be an addiction. It could be like they can't get
their financial shit together. It can betheir health, their wellness. They're not taking their pills for their you know, maybe they had a diagnosis of a disease and
(15:49):
they're not doing what they need to do. Orthey've been told, Hey, if you don't stop smoking, like, if you don't get your body moving, you're gonna like, blah, blah. But
this, this mothering thing, is when you tryto take on the role of caretaker, of parent, of someone who's struggling with something, but it's at the expense of your own well
being. It's at the expense of your ownneeds. And you try to kind of take on responsibility for things that are not yours to do. It's not yours. It never was yours,
(16:16):
right? But yet you try to get in there andmother it, mother. It like a mother. Bugger. You know what I'm saying? Like, you just get up in other people's business and you try to
just, like, take care and make sure and allthat stuff. And if you can, if you can, if you can see this behavior in yourself. Now, look, some of you're gonna say, but I am a
(16:39):
mother. Isn't that my role? I would say,like to a point, right? Of course, not when they're little kids, not when they're early teens, right? You know, as a parent, there's
gonna come a point you have to let your kidsfail. You have to let your kids make mistakes. You cannot. I always say, we cannot save people from themselves at a
(17:03):
certain age and a certain point, you have tolet people be adults. They have to learn to self parent. They have to learn to use their own inner wisdom, their own internal
teacher, to start making better choices. Soif you're caught in that mothering loop, maybe just take, you know, just step back, try to see it from an outside perspective,
(17:26):
and see if this is something that you have,a pattern of behavior that you've acquired. And a lot of times we're trying to do these four M's because we feel out of control, and
we feel like, if I can just control this,right? We think we're doing it for them, but really we're doing it for ourselves. And I'll talk more about this at the end. Okay,
(17:50):
the next one is managing. Oh my god, thisis, this is when you try to, like, control or fix the problem of the person who's struggling. You don't let them again. You
don't let them, you don't allow them to takeresponsibility for their actions and their choices. So you try to do everything, even like controlling the environment. Now, those
(18:13):
of you for sure, for sure, who grew up with
alcoholism in your family when you were akid, you're going to recognize some of these. These these are just some of the ones that I came up with. So you're always kind
of like scanning your environment. Right forme, I was always aware of the energy in the room. I was always, I say, I was always watching myself out this forehead, like for
(18:37):
signs, I always say, the landscape of hisforehead. I was always looking like and noticing, like what he was doing with his face, because it was always an early
indication of like, what was about to godown. So we do things like, we're hyper aware of other people's body language, the energy in the room. We're always continually
taking like the temperature, quote, unquote,the temperature of the room, right? We walk on eggshells around the addict, or we walk on eggshells just around people. So remember
(19:07):
this, I'm not just talking about, you know,people who have addictions. I'm just talking about people, and people when we grow up in those kind of unsafe, unsure, uncertain
environments, those egg Shelly environmentswe tend to carry unless we do some big work on ourselves when we're younger, we tend to carry these behaviors into our adult
(19:28):
relationships, and then we often wonder whythey don't work out right. And it's like, we think it's because, oh, because they're drinking, or they're doing this, or because
they're doing that, or they're doingwhatever, and it's like, no, it's like, because we need help too, because we're sick too, because we grew up in sick
environments, you know what I mean. So wetry to, like, walk on eggshells. We try to do all this stuff because we don't want to cause the other person to either, quote,
(19:53):
unquote, drink or we don't want the otherperson to get mad at us, going right back to Bill Burr, right. I try to behave this way and manage everything, and manage my
environment and manage everybody so that Idon't get hurt, which is so sad when you think about it, but we haven't learned a better way yet, sometimes and until we start
(20:15):
to gather some tools that will help us. Thisis kind of what we do. Another thing that people do is they try to, like, just put on, like, they just pour pink paint over
everything. They just try to pretend likethere isn't a problem. They just, like, hide behaviors of the people who are not doing the great things. They just, like, make up
lies and excuses. And they just try topretend like everything is perfect and nothing's going on. Like, don't look behind the curtain. Like, don't, don't Wizard of
(20:38):
Oz. That's like, don't look over there,right? And that's another way of trying to, like, manage people and manage the environment and manage everything, and it's
fucking exhausting. Okay? The next one ismanipulation. This is the third M. This is when we try to use as that. We would call, like, controlling tactics or deceptive
(21:02):
tactics to try to influence the behavior orthe decisions of others. I'll say that again, we use controlling tactics or deceptive ways to try to influence the
behavior or the decisions of others, and weoften do this so that we don't have to avoid. First of all, so they don't have to avoid but also, mostly so we don't have to
(21:24):
avoid facing difficult situations or uncomfyemotions. You know, sometimes we're not even aware that. You tell somebody they're being manipulative, and they'll be like, No, I'm
not. I'm just trying to do something nice.No, I'm just trying to x, y and z, because here's the thing, it's not always conscious. So many of our learned behaviors and our
(21:48):
patterns are deeply, deeply subconscious.That's why in the work that I do, I always say we work with both the conscious and the unconscious. That's why there's like
subconscious reprogramming in the work thatI do, because we're not even aware that we're doing it. And I'm sure you have noticed something, a behavior in somebody
else, like it's easy to recognize sometimesin other people, but we often don't see it in ourselves. And it's also because, first of all, we don't like to think of ourselves
(22:17):
being manipulative. We can't recognize itbecause it's not conscious, but also because manipulation takes on a lot of different forms, it wears a lot of different outfits
and costumes. You know what I'm saying? Sohere's here's the thing. Manipulation takes lots of forms, things like setting up a situation to achieve a desired outcome. So
(22:38):
you don't trust that things are going tounfold. You don't just let things lie. Right? To me, the manipulation has kind of like, there's, there's, and with all of
these, really, with all four M's, there's anunderlying anxiety. There's a tension there. And I'm doing this thing with my hand where my palm is open and my fingers are red,
white, and my hand is like shaking. There'slike this hum, this like uncertain hum in the background, which is this uncertainty, this fear, right? That's what anxiety is.
(23:04):
And a lot of times when we feel that anxiousthing like we feel like we have to do something, we have to we have to react. We have to like mother or manage or manipulate.
Another thing that manipulation looks likeis passive aggressive behavior. Maybe find yourself, maybe slamming the the door a little too loud, stomping your feet a little
(23:25):
too loud, doing that big sigh, doing thatbig sigh, hoping somebody's going to ask you what's wrong. Are you okay? Oh, my God, the Academy Award goes to, oh, the Oscar goes to
(23:49):
for Performance of the Year. Okay, buthere's another one. I don't know how people are gonna feel when I say this one out loud, but here's the truth. Another little
manipulation. Is people pleasing. Peoplepleasing. So think about it. Why? Why do we people please? Bill Burr manipulation was being funny. That was his survival
(24:12):
technique. Because if I do this and I getpeople to like me, they won't hurt me. You do it because you want other people to like you. That's why you people please. You want
them to like you. You want them to love you.You want them to give you their approval. You want them to say, good girl, good boy, good person. Pat on the head, right? But
(24:34):
trying to get a need met. It's in, it'swrapped, it's wrapped. It's like, it's like, you know those little nesting dolls. It's like, under the under the under the under
the under like, inside it, inside it, insideit. Why do I do this? Oh, because it's really easy to think you're a good person when you're doing everything for everybody
all the time. Which leads us to mod Adam,right, being a moda. Yeah, that fourth m and this one involves when you sacrifice your own needs. You just are trying to just like,
(25:09):
please everybody, serve others, right? Youjust don't care about your own well being. You go out of your way. You go above and beyond. You fucking circ to select yourself
to kingdom come. Oh, my God, I am nostranger. I'm no stranger to any of these. PS, by the way, all right, I can recognize these old patterns and they that river runs
(25:33):
deep, but but we can really learn ways torecognize what we're doing. And the reason why this is what I said, I made a note to self. Modigl is a fast track to suffering
and resentment. Do you remember? I don'tknow if you were I think I said it on the cab episode. I was talking about how underneath all, like so many smiling, nice
(25:56):
women, is like boiling rage. And rage isunder the under, the under of a lot of mad as well. So Mata dim often leads to feelings of resentment and burnt out. Because when
you try to do it all, and you try to do itall alone, first of all, when you try to do it all for the all, like for everyone, and you try to do it all alone, when you feel
(26:21):
like that, you're going to feel like you'resacrificing so much of your time, your energy, your love, your money, your resources, and then you feel like your
efforts go entirely unnoticed. And then whathappens you get you get your panties in a bunch, get a little cranky pants. Give you have yourself a little tantrum, a little
(26:44):
tizzy, right? You get yourself a littleadult tantrum. You get a little Po, you're a little pissed off. Why can't people see how I do everything all the time for everybody
and nobody appreciate do they even say thankyou? Do they even notice? Oh, my God, I still this is one for me where,
(27:09):
you know, I've had to learn. I've had tolearn, especially with my sweetie, right? I'm quick to say thank you. I'm usually pretty quick to notice things and to say
thank you, and whatever. And I had to learnliving with my sweetie that he takes a little bit longer to get around to using his words and if I just And first of all,
(27:30):
hopefully we're doing things because we wantto do them. Now, of course, there will be times in our life where we do something, maybe we don't really want to do it, but
it's the right thing to do. So you do itright? But hopefully we're doing things as adults because we want to do them. And it's not transactional. It's not tit for tat.
We're not just sitting around waiting forthe Thank you. I've had people in my life who are just like it almost doesn't feel like a gift they've given you, because they
(27:55):
give you the thing, and you can just tellthey're sitting there with their fucking little watch, waiting for their Thank you, waiting for the acknowledgement, and it kind
of sucks some of the fun and the joy out ofit a little bit. But I am no stranger to that quality of feeling like that, especially like back in the day. I've done
some good work around this. I've done somegood work around this, but here's a little tip. Here's a little tip. So if you feel yourself in that you're sitting in the
(28:23):
shitty diaper of martyrdom and you're justfeeling like everything you do goes unnoticed or underappreciated or unappreciated. Here's a good question.
Here's a good I learned this All right.Hello. Thank you. Thank you, Laurel. Thank you Al Anon for this. I learned this question, but did they ask for my help with
this? Did they ask for my help with this? Ordid I just take it upon myself to Cirque du Soleil myself? Did I just take it upon myself to talk and turn and go out of my way
(28:56):
and drive the 20 miles or go to the store orpick up the thing or by the present or do their what, whatever it is. Did they ask for that help? Or did I take it upon myself?
Because this is when your moda Jim combineswith manipulation of that people pleasing. Well, here's Bill Burr. If I'm just funny, they won't hurt me. Well, the other version
(29:20):
of that, well, if I just do everything forthem all the time, they'll love me, and then they won't want to get rid of me. So a lot of this is tied into like 1000 things, but
like things like fears of fear ofabandonment, fear of not being good enough, feel of fear of not being worthy, fear of not being lovable. You know what I mean? So
(29:41):
if, if you ask that question, well, did theyask me to do this? Did they ask me for my help with this? Did they ask me to help them? And the answer is no, well, then don't
be surprised that you don't get a thank you,because we see it as helping when here's another m, they might see it as. Meddling, but I didn't ask you to do that. I didn't
(30:03):
ask you to come to my house and X, Y and Z.I didn't ask you to fold my clothes. I didn't ask you to buy me the thing. You took it upon yourself, and now you're going to be
mad at me because you're up in my businessand meddling, and you see that as love, and I just see it as being controlling. Oh my god, you know what I mean. So look, the
important thing to remember here, I want tosay this, this part's important. So, lean in, lean in. Listen, right, these four M's, the mothering, the managing, the
(30:33):
manipulation and the martyrdom. They comefrom a wound. They are survival mechanisms, things that kept you in some instances, alive. So we're not here to shame ourselves.
We're not here to blame earlier versions ofourselves, those earlier younger versions of us, those younger parts of us were just trying to survive, our experiences, our
(31:01):
environments, right, the situations that wefound ourselves in, the families that we were born into. It wasn't by choice, a lot of it wasn't by choice, but it became us,
and we were just dog paddling in the deepend, trying to keep our head above water. And we learned some, you know, trauma responses. We learn some patterns of
(31:23):
behavior, but now what happens is, when weget older, they're no longer working right. In fact, they're getting in the way of the thing that we want the most, which is, like
intimate, and I don't mean intimate, likesexual, but intimate connection with other humans, like intimate relationships, relationships where you can have deep
(31:46):
vulnerability and connection, where you canreally let yourself be seen and not feel like you have to be perfect, like, if I'm not perfect, they won't love me. They'll
kick me out. They'll get rid of me. They'llbreak up with me. They'll leave me. They won't want to be my friend. They won't want to buy my product, they won't want to
whatever, right? But this is not a way tolive anymore. It got us to a point, and it was helpful to a point, and now there are better ways of being. There are better ways
(32:13):
of being. And if you're like, I don't knowwhat those are, right, like, I don't know, like, I don't have those tools. Well, here's the thing, there is a lot of help out there.
There's a lot of literature, there's a lotof resources. There are groups, and there are people like me who are spiritual mentors and coaches and stuff like that, right? So
(32:36):
there are groups like Al Anon. Like, ifyou're recognizing yourself in these, right? And you've never been to an Al Anon group, I highly recommend it just going and checking
it out. Give it a few like, like they saywhen you when you first go to AA or whatever. I know a lot of friends in AA, and they always say, like, when you're trying to
(32:56):
find your home meeting. That meeting is, Ialways say, I equate it to like when you're trying to find your yoga studio. Like, when you're trying to find your yoga studio, I
always say, like, go to six classes, go tosix like, go to different places, go to different teachers, go to different classes, and try to find the good fit for you. And
it's the same thing with any one of thesegroups, right? A lot of times people try to find them in their hometown. Sometimes people don't want to be known in their
(33:18):
hometown, so they go to a neighboring town,whatever. But Al Anon can be a really powerful thing. There's also a co a groups adult children of alcoholics, groups those,
and I think it's actually adult children ofalcoholics and dysfunctional families. Oh, my God. It makes me laugh every time I think of it or see it. But because, hello, hello,
(33:43):
who didn't, who didn't grow I mean, all ofus should just go to that meeting, right? Who didn't grow up in a dysfunctional family? Holy shit, right? But this is the
thing, one of the things that we can do whenwe find ourselves doing a lot of these M's right, a lot of these M's right, is to learn to like do another m, which is myself, learn
(34:03):
to keep the focus on ourselves. So much ofthe mothering, the managing, the manipulation and the martyrdom comes because we feel out of control within ourselves. We
don't have yet what ashwaran, my teacher,ashwaran, talks about like that Sanctum Sanctorum. It's in there. We're just not aware of it. We do not have the location. We
(34:24):
do not have the GPS. We are not aware of thelongitude and the latitude of our own inner peace, where the love is, right? We're not always quite sure how to get there. We need
a map. There's another m we need a map. AndI'm really like, I love to help people. I love people. I love. Well, I do love people, but I love to help people come back home to
(34:44):
the longitude and latitude of love, to comeback to the truth of themselves, where they can find that inner peace, where they can find that love, and to give them a ton of
tools. So if any of this resonates with you,you can either come join the nest, right? I always say Karen Kenney died. Com slash nest. Find out about my group program, my
group coaching program, beautiful, communityof human beings, lovely, glorious. It's a blast. We have so much fun. And also, you could work with me one to one in what I call
(35:12):
the quest, which is one to one spiritualmentoring. But I bring to it all the tools, all the skills that I have, right? And it brings together, like my spiritual
mentoring, subconscious reprogramming. I'malso a hypnotist, right? So conversational hypnosis, subconscious reprogramming, the somatic, so it's like the physical, the
emotional, the mental, the spiritual, mind,body, spirit, all coming down to like love. It's the love. It's all about the love. That's what it's about, right? And so I hope
(35:41):
this has given you some things to thinkabout. I always say, I'm not here to tell you what to think, but it's always an invitation to think more critically, more
deeply, to become more self aware and reallylike when we talk about spreading love in the world, one of the one of the best ways that we can spread love is to be more self
aware, to understand how we are showing upin the world. And I always say, right, going the difference between going out into the world, inflicting yourself on people, versus
(36:09):
going out in a more inspired way, right?With, with, with connection to something greater than you, the God of your own understanding, and showing up from that
place, grounded in a place of love, so thatwe are choosing our actions rather just reacting out of trauma and habit and patterns. Um, so, yeah. So be kind to
(36:31):
yourself if you do recognize some of thesethings again, this is not about shaming ourselves. This is more about like, shining a spotlight and going like, Oh, this is so
interesting. I do do that. What's thatabout? Like, asking these questions of ourselves. When did I learn that? When did I learn that behavior?
(36:52):
Why did that become a good idea? Like, whydid that? What was I trying to like, protect myself from? You know, it's always not like that, that, that question, right, that
spiritual question of like, not like, Whatthe fuck is wrong with you? Like, why do you do that? Why didn't you do that? It's more like what happened to you. Because these
things are a response. They are a reactionto some shit that went down in our own lives. And there's a reason why, if you find yourself and Al Anon, because here's the
(37:23):
truth is, a lot of times you might have comeup in a home that was really dysfunctional because of these patterns of addiction and behavior, but then it becomes what you know,
and the brain is always looking for whatit's what's familiar. You've heard me say it before, right? The brain would rather keep you in an unsafe known rather than a safe
(37:44):
unknown. It doesn't like the uncertainty,even if the outcome could be a gazillion times more positive. So be kind. Kind. Be curious, not judgmental. Be kind, not cruel
to yourself. What you need right now is yourown compassion, not your contempt, if you recognize yourself in some of these behaviors, okay? And just thank you so much
(38:08):
for listening. If you're still here fortuning in, I super duper appreciate it. And it is always, like I said, it's always my desire to be helpful in some way, and even
that, like I've talked about this, I'vejoked about this before in the show, why am I such a helper? Pat Lee, yes, because I am of the generation of Bob Ross and Mr. Rogers
and Sesame Street and the Muppets and zoomand like all these shows that, like that taught us about our humanity, right, and how to be decent human beings, because a lot of
(38:37):
us weren't getting it in our homes, youknow? And so we had some really great educational systems. So yeah, there's a part of me that loves to naturally help, and
being a good helper is one of the waysright, that you stayed safe. That's that people pleasing pot, and that people pleasing muscle is one that I have had to
(38:59):
try and let with uh, let it atrophy a littlebit as I've gotten older, you know. So I can still see it in there. I can still see it in there. Every once in a while, it wants to,
like, do everything for everybody. And I'mlike, you can't. You cannot make everybody happy. It's just impossible. And certainly the one person who won't be happy if you're
caught in that if you're caught in thatloop. If you are caught in that pattern, in that cycle of drama, that cycle of trying to do it all for everyone, all on your own, is
(39:29):
you're going to end up really unhappyyourself. So you guys, thank you so much for being here, wherever you go, wherever you go. May you leave the people, the place, the
animals, the environment and yourself betterthan when you first found it. Wherever you go, may you and your presence in your energy and your love be a blessing. Bye, you.
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