THE MYSTIC JESUS with MARIANNE WILLIAMSON

Episode Transcript
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Karen Kenney (00:01):
Karen. Hey you guys. Welcome to the Karen Kenney show. I can barely contain my excitement. I'm so happy whenever I get to talk to Marion Williamson, and I
really often feel like she doesn't even needan introduction. So the world kind of talks about her as Marion Williamson. And I feel like, I mean, I've known you since I was in

(00:26):
my 20s, so it's been a wicked long time,like over 30 years. And so I've kind of known you since, I want to say 19 Well, 1992 is when I discovered, you look at how old
this sucker is. It is like brown on theedges. I have had this book. This is the book. Did I ever tell you the story of this book and how I first got to who you were?

Marianne Williamson (00:52):
I definitely remember the time getting to know you when we want to stage and you were in those overalls you used to wear all the time. I do remember the
first day we met, but no, I don't know thestory of how you found that.

So I had, like, graduated from from BU, from Boston University. My roommate at the time, went to Emerson College, and she had an internship at CBS, and so she
went on to become an Emmy Award winningcasting director for the young and the restless and these different shows stuff. But when she was first moving out to LA, she

(01:24):
was like, she didn't, she's like, will youcome with me? And I was like, Okay, I had, literally, no, I had, like, $1,200 in my pocket. And, uh, is it like a Thomas guide,
the thing that used to tell you where allthe streets were, like, that's all I had. So for the first I would say I was there for about eight years, and for the first six
years or so, six and a half years, I had nocar, no transportation. I was taking the bus everywhere. So one of my saving graces My whole life has always been my love of books,

(01:52):
my love of reading. That is something thatmy mother passed down to me. So where I would see comfort is going into bookstores. And so one day I went into the bookstore. It
was crown books in Burbank on Sepulveda.I'll never forget. And I walked in, I ended up working at that bookstore. Eventually, I spent so much time there, they offered me a
job. But I'll never forget going into thebookstore. And at that time, and I still, I was really into fitness and lifting weights. And I was like, Oh, I'm gonna go into the

(02:19):
health section. And as I was walking throughto I remember it so vividly, walking straight back into where the health section was, the magazines, the body building
magazines, all that stuff. And I literallyheard a voice in my head say, You should go to the Self Help section, because you could use some help. And I thought like what is

(02:41):
happening, but I listened, for whateverreason, I said, okay, and I was walking down the aisle, and I'm looking at everything, and this is back in the day, like 92 this is
like Deepak and like all this self help, youknow, everything's blowing up. There's all these books, and I'm just looking a little overwhelmed, and there's nobody else in the
aisle with me, and all of a sudden,literally, this book goes like this. And literally, I swear to God, the book fell off the shelf. Literally, I looked down. I

(03:13):
always tell this story, and I see this facelooking back at me. And this is me. That's literally what I said, Who's this broad. And so I pick it up and I read it, and I'm like
a return to love, reflections on theprinciples of A Course in Miracles. And I had no idea what it was. I was raised a Catholic. I had no idea what this was. And I
thought to myself, Jesus, I could use amiracle. Oh, and I sat down on the floor and I opened up this book. This was before there were chairs in bookstores, and I sat on the

(03:44):
floor and I opened this book, and I say twothings. I say number one, I had never, ever heard anybody talk about God the way that you talked about God, and I found it
incredibly intriguing and attractive andreally magnetizing. And I also got really mad, because it was the first time anybody had ever told me that, like, I kind of had a

(04:07):
say in my own suffering, that, like I had achoice in how I interpreted the events that had happened in my life. And it was from that point forward that I was like, as soon
as I get a car first, one of the firstthings I'm going to do is go to one of your lectures, because you were lecturing at the time every week in LA. And I went to your

(04:27):
lectures. And I just remember, I mean, I doan impression of you out of love, like, you know, I'm like in, you know, we see in the middle of our mind a beautiful ball of gold.
We watch as this light grows larger in line.But so many things that you did on stage way back in the day, like it deeply gets in my subconscious. And so even now, whenever I

(04:50):
have an event or a retreat or a yoga class,I tell everybody, turn to the people to your left and your right and front and behind and introduce yourself like that's something I
got from you. And I always give you creditand stuff. But from that point, then I started going to your special events, and when I first met you, where I met you, I
will never forget it. It was at Michael BEXwith agape, and you were doing a workshop on relationships, and I had the overalls on I'll never forget and I stood up, and I had

(05:22):
every intention. I was dating a magician. Atthe time, I worked at a place called wizards, up at Universal City Walk, and I was dating a magician, and it just was not
going well. It was not magic. I mean, wewent back and forth, and I got up and I thought I was going to ask a question about relationships. And as soon as I got to the

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mic, I literally say, I feel like my mother,like, took over my body, and she made me ask you the question. And I said, I'm not so sure. Like, I get this whole forgiveness
thing. And you said, like, Well, tell memore. And I told you a little bit about my mother being murdered and being killed, and then and I said to you, my mother has

(06:06):
started coming to me in my dreams. And shesaid to me, I've forgiven him. Now it's your turn. And I said, and I don't know how to do that. And so that's when you brought me up
on stage, and that was one of the most I'mgetting goosebumps, even retelling the story. But I will never, ever, ever, ever, ever forget that experience. And when you

(06:31):
hugged me, the things you said in my ear,the thing you said to the crowd, it was one of the most life changing experiences of my life. And I mean, I don't want to, I could
go on and on, but I write about it in mybook. PS, is a whole chapter on you.

Well, you know, it's so fascinating what you're saying about your mom, because I didn't remember that she had come to you in a dream, and it said that. So
after that, did she stop coming in thedreams? Or? No,

she still comes, she still comes to me in my dreams, but the dreams now are like the dreams now are almost all a little more stressful, meaning the number
one theme in my dreams is that other peoplein my family that somehow she's still alive. And other people in my family knew she's been alive this whole time, but never told

(07:26):
me. And so now I'm I will find out, and thenI go looking for her, and then I find her, and I say, Where have you been? Why have you been gone for so long? Like I missed you so
much, and it's very intense my dream, mydreams about my mother, are never just like, oh yeah,

in the dream, does she respond to that question?

What normally happens is I'm so emotional that I wake myself up. But there was one dream, and I write about it in the book, where I was so mad at everybody,
and I found her I like, everyone's so mad.We were all playing cards around the table, and people started dropping hints. And I finally said, like, what aren't you guys

(08:14):
telling me? They told me she was alive. Theytold me where she lived. She lived right down the street from me, and I ran down the street, like, busted in the front door of
her house, and we were in this long, skinnyhallway. We were both wearing, like pockets, like snow jackets and stuff like that. And I grabbed her, and she basically just hugged
me, and she leaned against the wall, and weboth slid down the wall onto the floor, and she basically, basically said to me something like, you know, I've never left

(08:45):
you. And then she basically says, you know,like, basically, like me and God, have always been here for you. And so it's always, like, really big. But this whole
thing I've always said about you that Ireally believe that one of the that she was instrumental in me discovering you and I always say two of the most impactful things

(09:06):
in my life have been losing my mother andfinding Mary. Ann Williamson, uh, you're muted.

Unknown (09:20):
How old would your mother be today?

So she was born in 47 so she'd be

five years older than me. She'd be like, 77 years old now. Yeah, yeah,

she was 33 she was the same age as Jesus when she died, and she was 33 and I just think, like, you know, I never thought I would outlive her. Like that was.
It's always a very strange thing when yououtlive your parent, and then you do and then the older I get, the more I just have so much compassion for that young woman and

(09:53):
how young like, how young she was, how youngshe was. I. And I wish, I wish I could have seen who she would have become. I have no doubt that she sees what I'm up to my
shenanigans, but I wish I could have seenthe actualization of her dreams. I think that would have been really, really cool. Although I have said, I have said, because I

(10:19):
was so attached to her. She the pull of mymother's gravity was so strong, like she talked about the light of the world when my mother walked into a room, it was like, and
I don't know if I ever would have leftMassachusetts, like, I don't know if I ever would have went off to college or moved to LA or did any of those things that allowed
me. I don't I often say this, and I mean itwith deep reverence and respect for her and her life and her suffering and what she went through, but I don't know that I would be

(10:48):
the same person if she had lived.

Yeah, I've heard you say that before, and it's all part of the larger mystery, isn't it? Well, God's answer to death is always some greater form of
life. And you have lived out an aspect ofher life that she wasn't able to live out on this earth. You've lived it out for her. And you know, you're also old enough now to have

(11:17):
a stronger awareness that the time betweenwhen that horrible thing happened and now is probably greater than the time between now and when you'll see her again.

It's so true, right? I mean, I take great comfort. I take great comfort in that, you know, I think, as you know, in, in this illusion that we're all in, in the
dream and yoga, we call it the Maya, theillusion, course, in miracles, the dream, you know, I feel like, I feel like there's a part of me that's already reunited, like I
feel like that. I'm just still acting outwhatever's left on this, you know, as a writer, you know, as a fellow writer, well, the script, the acting, the directing, you

(12:00):
know, and I don't know if it was you, Idon't know who said it, but I kind of think about this all the time, that sometimes we can look at our life as if we're sitting in
the audience with Jesus. Oh, that's a goodone. We're sitting in the audience with Jesus watching the movie. Was it you? It sounds like you're No,

I agree with it. I think it sounds cool, but no, and yeah, I didn't say that one, yeah. And

you basically lean over to him and you ask, is this, is this a tragedy or a comedy? Oh, that's

great. I understand it, but kudos to them well. So I think, from A Course in Miracles perspective and everything that we know, she hasn't ever
left you, yeah, life is one, and the veilbetween this life and the life on the other side is so thinner and thinner, the more you know. And of course, she said that to you in
a dream. I never left you. She's been herethe entire time. And also it makes you wonder, you know, I think about this with my parents. I think about it with my sister,

(12:59):
any, any people that we know who havepassed, I wonder what they're doing over there. You

know, I was lucky enough to meet you mom. She came to Egypt with us on that trip. Yeah,

and I have pictures Karen that I find every once in a while. You know, India, she was such a little girl. Then she now is not only the mother of a
little girl, but pregnant with a secondlittle girl.

I know it's incredible when I think to that and how fascinating it was to, you know, just like you're a famous person, like in like, you know, I think you're
really well known. You've run for presidenttwice. You have 16 books, four of which became New York Times number one bestseller. I mean, the shit you've accomplished in this

(13:41):
lifetime is, like, so remarkable. I hope youpause. I hope you do pause once in a while and realize how remarkable. Like, what a, what a, I don't know. I often wonder, like,
maybe your ancestors knew all along, likethat the world was like, ready for you, and then you got sent here, or whatever, but you have accomplished some incredible things and

(14:03):
but I remember me, it's just, it's true,meeting your mom and how, like, how do I explain this? It was like, almost like just being, not so much a fly on the wall, but I
was so fascinated with the dynamic of youtwo, because I am just fascinated by the religious daughter mothers and daughters, anyway, but I have a picture of you. I think

(14:26):
I actually even sent it to you, and you'reboth sitting. We were on, I think this is when we were going down the Nile on the cruise, and we're on the ship, and there's a
picture of you, and you have a thing, like Isaid, because I've been watching you for 35 years, the way you do this thing with your chin and your finger, and your mother was,
like, sitting, and I'm like, Oh my God.Like, I'm seeing the DNA. Like, right here. It was so incredible. Wow, yeah,

I would like to, I do you know when she used to come to visit when I was giving lectures in Los Angeles, yeah, and all of these, particularly all these gay
men, young men. Who Would my lectures, andthey would go after her, Oh, Mrs. Williamson, your daughter. This, your daughter, that and your daughter has been so
wonderful to me. And this is what my motherwould always say. She was very difficult to raise. Yes, I think I was very difficult to write. I remember saying to my mother once,

(15:20):
when I was a young woman, you know, mysister married, and she had a home, and she had children, and she had a good marriage, and she just it all worked. And I was like,
you know, kind of always struggling. And Isaid to my mother at one point, this was before I My career started. I said, Mommy, why don't you just admit it. You like Jane.

(15:42):
You like Jane and you don't. You don't likeme the way you like Jane. Why don't you just admit it? And her response to me was so amazing. She said, Because I expected that
she would say, that's just not true. That'snot what she said. She said, for the last 10 years, your sister has given me nothing but joy, and you have given me nothing but pain

(16:07):
or anxiety or whatever she said. And Ithought to myself, well, you know, she has a feeling that's reasonable. I can't really complain about that. So I thought that was
she, at that point, wanted a different kindof daughter, and I wanted a different kind of mother, sure, once I figured that out and saw the mirroring that was happening. And
you know, I didn't have the tragic end to mymother's life that you had, but like you, even though my mother lived to be very old woman, I wish I had another five minutes

(16:41):
with her, don't we? I remember reading aninterview with Stella McCartney. You know, her mother was Linda. I read an interview in a magazine, and they said, If you could have
anything, what would you want? And she said,five more minutes with my mother. Oh,

my God. Isn't that the truth? It makes me verklempt,

but we're gonna have eternity with them. I know. I know, and we do have eternity with them. I mean, they're here. We

get I think of it jokingly. I say it's we're a little greedy, right? It's like, it's the physical longing. It's like, whether it's their smell, the sound of their
voice, their laughter, whatever the thingis. And I think for me, what it was, is that my mother was highly attuned to my sensitivity, like she knew what a sensitive
kid I was, and I really feel like my motherdeeply saw me, deeply heard me, and she was not a perfect mother by any by any stretch of the imagination, but she she she saw me,

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she heard me, and I belonged to her. I knewthat I had a place of belonging. And so much of what my my life's journey, my spiritual journey, has been, was, and this is what my
memoir is about. My book is about that I'mstill writing is about the to to to realize that I have always belonged and that I have belonged to something greater than even my

(18:12):
mother. And do you want to say something?

Well, I can't remember. How old were you when 1212? I so

it was at precipice, right? And I was such a tomboy, like I was. I cried when I got my period. I cried when I had to start wearing a bra, like I just was, like,
such a little like, you know, I was, Ilooked like a boy till I was 13, really? Like, oh, I had short hair. I would go into a woman's bathroom. They'd kick me out. They
thought I was like, be I was like, I lookedlike a little boy. And

so, who ushered you through all that? Me, no, but you went to live, what with

relatives? Oh, yeah. So my my mother, this is interesting. Like, about a week or so before she died, I got my first period, and she had given me my sex talk.
Like I got the sex talk when I was like six,because I had stepsisters and I had an older sister. She's only a year and a half older than me, but we used to have this book at my
house called how babies were made. And Ifound it, and I asked some questions, or I stumbled upon, I think she was giving my she's my stepsister. I call her my sister

(19:20):
Kathy. She was she was getting the sex talk,and I think I walked in the room, my mother's like, yeah, here, sit down. So she talked to us about those things. So she
taught me about menstruation in your period.And I'll never forget, I tell this story that, like, about a week before she was killed, she was laying in her she was in her
bedroom, on her bed, on the phone, talkingto one of her girlfriends, and I was walking by into the kitchen to get a snack, and I heard her. I overheard her, she said. She

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started telling her that I got my period,and I was horrified. I was so mad. And I was like, You traitor. How could you tell her? Like, how could you tell her? And she just,
like, laughed, not in a mean way. She justkind of laughed at my drama. And then. She explained, she's like, Yeah, the pads are in the bathroom, whatever like. So she
explained it to me, but like, I taughtmyself how to use a tampon. I went and bought them for the first time. Like those things, like becoming a woman, like, I

(20:11):
figured all that out basically on my own,because nobody, nobody in my family, talked about anything. So my my biological father's brother, my uncle and his wife were the ones
to take us in. So I lived with them for fourand a half years after my mother died, and then at 17, I went off to college, and I was on my own from from 17 on, so it was like a

(20:39):
journey. Like, like, that's why I say, It'sno joke when I say, like, I found you, and you know, there were, there are a couple of women throughout over time, like Miss
Lefebvre. She was my she was my high schoolteacher, she was my cheerleading coach, and she was my boyfriend's mother, and miss, like, miss, like, saved me. And then it was
like, a series of this. So it was like,miss, and then I found you, and then you introduced me to Daphne, and I found Daphne, and she played a role

Unknown (21:07):
like that. Have you? Do you? Are you in touch with Daphne once in a blue moon?

But it's probably been about three years, maybe a little more four years, but once in a blue moon, because she used to get my newsletter, and she would read it,
and she'd send me a little love note. But asfar as I know, she's still alive, and she's still in Santa Barbara. As far as I know, she moved for a while, but then I think she
moved back, so she was in

Hawaii. Yeah, yeah. I was thinking about her recently. I'd love to be in touch with her. I haven't talked to her in many years, lot longer than three
years. And I would just love to Yeah, shewas think of her very fondly and great writer.

She is a great writer, and she was one of the first people to really start to talk to me about, like, Pat's work, ifs internal family systems, and really honoring
the younger versions of myself and givingthem a voice and listening to what I needed. And I I just think back to all of you, but I wanted, I'm laughing. One of the things I

(22:05):
had this little, it's not really a surprise,but I was laughing because I'm like, I wanted to show you this. This is the first with my own money, the very first thing
after your book that I bought, I bought thisat one of your lectures. And it was like, probably let me see. Look at this, the old cassette tapes. Wow, I have, like, your

(22:25):
whole series. Like, this is when they usedto come in, like these, these old plastic things. And look at these. I bought every single one of them. This was before I think
I could get to your I was like, I would buyall your, all your audio cassettes, and I would listen to them in my little walk that I would like listen to all of your
cassettes, and I'd be like, All right, whatdoes Mary Ann have to say on women playing big? What did she have to say about creativity and self confidence? You you were

(22:53):
like, um, you know, you were like, myspiritual mother, my spiritual godmother. And you know, you've just played such a huge role in my life. But enough about me. I can
talk about us all day long. I want to talkabout, like, the role that you have played, I think, in the greater world, in the work that you've done. I mean your books, of
course, I mean a return to love is, is stratstratified. But what I want to really talk about is your new one. I am so happy that you wrote a book about Jesus. Oh, thank you.

(23:23):
I am so excited. So for those of you who arenot watching the episode, but you're listening, I'm holding up Mary Ann's latest book, her 16th book. It's called the mystic
Jesus, the mind of love. And I'm just goingto read a little something from the back, and then maybe we can dive into this. You say the mystic Jesus is a deeper alignment

(23:44):
of heart and mind, redirecting humanintelligence and reminding us of who we are. He was a historical figure, of course, but he is a historical as well. He was present
as a man on the earth 2000 years ago, and heis present as a spirit within our psyches even now. Oh, I love this. He is a name for the unalterable love. Don't we all need some

(24:09):
unalterable love right now. He is a name forthe unalterable love that all of us share, out of which we were created and through which all of us are one. I think right now,
in the world with the way everything is kindof going, I don't think a lot of people feel as if we are one, this idea of perfect Oneness in A Course in Miracles, right? And

(24:38):
we have very much bought into the tiny, madidea of separation. So when we talk about, when we talk about Jesus in this way that He is the unalterable love through which all of
us are one. I mean, how do you think likethis bull, this book in particular, but. Idea of Jesus as being this figure who, in some ways, if we pay attention, can guide us

(25:07):
into how we can have that experience of ourperfect Oneness. You want to say a little bit more about that.

Well, to the traditional Christian, the line there is only one begotten Son, means Jesus, from the metaphysical or mystical, Miracle minded
perspective, there's only one of us here.That's the meaning of there is only one begotten Son, that the Son of God is One creation. The image I often use is of the

(25:36):
wheels right and the spokes of the wheel. Sowe are used to identifying the various spokes by their position on the rim of the wheel. But if you take each spoke all the
way to its source point, it's one singlesource point, and the Course in Miracles, much like that, it's also similar to the way Carl Jung said, if you go deep enough into

(26:00):
your mind, and deep enough into mind, thereare mental images. We all share what he called archetypes. The Christ Mind, the one begotten Son, takes it one step further,
that if you go deep enough into your mindand deep enough into mine, we share the same mind. So we are one on the realm of spirit, so on the realm of the material. Clearly,

(26:24):
you're over there, and I'm over here, on therealm of spirit. There's no place where I stop and you start. So we perceive with the body senses, and thus we receive a world of
disunity and separation and disharmony andconflict and all of the things that can arise so easily from that filter. But the heart knows a truth that is truer. What the

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course of miracle says is a world beyondthis one, and that we can know it even when we can't see it. And when we know it. It's much like when a plane is flying through
clouds. All it is is hot air. But if youwere only basing your perception on your physical eyes, you think, Well, if the plane hits the cloud, it's going to crash. But the

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pilot knows. The pilot knows there's ahorizon. The pilot knows that it's just air that I'm going to just flow through, right fly through. So faith is knowing, even
though my physical senses perceive the Maya,the illusion, just knowing it is Maya, that it is illusion, just knowing Be still and know in that moment what the Course calls a

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holy instant, if you'll just take thatmoment of knowing that I am dwelling within this realm of the insanity. You know, I love that famous line Emily Dickinson, I dwell in
possibility. Yeah, you you can choose, nomatter what your worldly circumstances, what world you want to dwell in. The world we wish to dwell in is one in which all of us

(28:08):
are loving beings, and we just want to loveand be loved, and we're so confused living in this earth, and it's so complicated here, and there's so much evidence of the
separation, and it's so and all of us thereare these places where we just want to be loved, but we don't know how to love in that moment and get our needs met, so we all turn
into jerks. Sometimes. Just

know that be

willing, and that's what the Course in Miracles says, is forgiveness, that I am willing to extend my perceptions beyond what the physical senses
provide. Now you and I have loved each otherfor a long time, so I know in my experience of you, I don't ever get anything but kindness and appreciation. So it's easy for
me to soften it's easy for me to feel safe,it's easy for me to love back. But we meet people on our path with whom it is not necessarily that easy. Obviously, you've had

(29:01):
an experience in your life which is extreme,deeply extreme, where How can I possibly see beyond the guilt of this person? And that's what's so profound about your mother saying,
I've forgiven him. It's your turn now. Nowwe're not, and I know you're not, and we're not even from a from a from a theological perspective, minimizing the human

(29:23):
experience, but it is to say that there's atruth of eternal innocence that lies beyond this world as we experience it, and enlightenment, the Course says, is a shift
in self perception From body identificationto spirit identification, one of the things you said a few months ago was that when you a few minutes ago was that when you first

(29:46):
read a return to love, it was the first timeyou had been exposed to the idea that you were responsible, that you the idea is that the circumstances are what the circumstances
are. And in your case, obviously you.Terrible and that someone is saying, but Viktor Frankl, this was a very powerful statement, that no matter what you were

(30:09):
responsible for, who you choose to be in thespace of what's happened, you were responsible for what you choose to think in the space of what happens. And I think
that's really important right now in thiscountry and in this world, because if we see ourselves only as victims, and we see our see whether it's mosque or Trump or
whomever, or left or many, or, you know,some people's some people's politics, or they see the people on the left are the problems. Some people see the people on the

(30:36):
right of the problem. If we, if we staythere, that is what has created this experience of the DIS United States. None of us can feel happy in that place. None of us
can feel peaceful in that place. So this isa real inflection point. This is a real choice point. Am I willing to see beyond the illusion of our separation? Now that doesn't

(30:59):
mean we're going to agree with each other,we don't have to agree with each other. It doesn't even mean we don't work passionately to block behavior that we think is really
wrong. I mean, in politics and society, youset boundaries just like you do as an individual. Love sometimes says no. Love sometimes is absolutely clear that that is

(31:22):
not up to my standards, right? Yes, andthat's okay, but we can still keep our hearts open and in both personal relationships as well as collective
relationships, keeping our hearts openknowing there's a larger context, even when it's time to set boundaries or whatever form of saying no is appropriate will make all

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the difference. And then what that does theCourse in Miracles says, is that it transforms the realm of the illusion. And the realm of the illusion will become a
place in which fear turns into love anddisunity turns into unity. And I think any thinking person knows that we need that now, just like when you said, when you saw the

(32:05):
book and went, well, I need a miracle. Youknow, Karen, I had an interesting experience about a week ago. I was out to dinner with a couple friends of mine, and the woman is a
wonderful woman, but I've heard her talkabout religion in pretty dismissive ways. I know she's not one of us, spiritually and all that kind of stuff. And we were talking

(32:30):
about the political situation in the UnitedStates today, and she's very, very astute, very and that's her field as well. And I said, Well, I believe in miracles. And she
said, very seriously, well, it will take amiracle now. And I thought, Dwight, hallelujah, God works in mysterious what? Cuz I never thought I'd hear that from her.

(32:55):
And I thought, you know, this is forcing alot of people to the very painful at first realization that, as they say in AA, your best thinking got you here, and this is
unmanageable. You can't fix this. All theinstitutions you thought were going to fix this, all the laws you thought were going to fix this all the things. Well, guess what?

(33:23):
Here we have the material, yeah, on thematerial plane. Other forces have it very locked up. So time for a miracle. I

love that we're talking about this, because I cannot tell you how painful it is. You know, when you know a person, and then you see online, right? So, like, you'll
do a post about, yeah, you know, it's notabuse there. The abuse like, whatever your what your thoughts, because you have been like, almost like, daily. Sometimes I don't

(33:56):
even maybe twice a day, unless I'm making itup in my head. But you've been doing a lot on your sub stack. And you guys go check out our sub stack, all the links to all the ways
to interact with Marianne and do classes andall those things I'll post, but, but you post a lot of things, and there's this thing about spiritual people that was gonna be not

(34:16):
even gonna say, excuse my language.Everybody knows I got a potty mouth, but, like, it drives me fucking nuts when they just expect us all there's an ex look,
Course in Miracles, people, I love you. Andthere's this thing that a lot of Course in Miracles students do, which is they think we're just supposed to pretend like nothing

(34:38):
is happening and that we're not supposedlike, it's so judgmental and unloving. And Marianne, how can you post such dark things into I'm like, dark things we're just
saying, what's going down? And one of thethings I've always said is, even if it's not here in small our reality, it's not, quote, unquote, real. It. Doesn't mean we don't do

(35:00):
anything. I'm like, if you see a hungry kid,you give him a sandwich like you feed people you love people. You do things we don't stick our head in the sand and pretend like
we're not supposed to do anything. And evenJesus is one of the things I love about Jesus as a mystic, and as some people have even said, he's a heretic, right? Like he
didn't like you even said in your book, Ithink in one of the chapters, he doesn't ignore things. Can you talk about this a little bit, this confusion?

Absolutely. Well, the Course in Miracles says, look at the crucifixion, but do not dwell on it. If you don't look at it, you're not transcending
something. You're in denial. And the Coursein Miracles talks about negative denial and positive denial. Negative denial is, oh, let's not look at it. And by the way, you
say a lot of Course in Miracles students,I'm sorry, I think a lot of people who say that have not actually read the whole thing, well, right? Because if you, if you actually

(35:53):
read the Course in Miracles, it is not abook that denies, within this illusion, that some terrible things happen. Thank you. And the Course in Miracles says, with the
illusions are as powerful in their effectsas is the truth. It's like you were just saying, when God saw a hungry person, he when Jesus saw a hungry person, he wanted to
feed them. When he saw a sick person, hewanted to heal them. So this is a strange thing. Faux spirituality somehow that has come about in the last few decades, this

(36:29):
idea that it's somehow spiritual to ignorethe suffering of the world. And the truth of the matter is there is no serious religious or spiritual tradition that I know of that
gives anyone a pass on ignoring thesuffering of other sentient beings. Jesus suffered on the cross. The Israelites were enslaved by Pharaoh. If you skip that and go

(36:53):
directly to the Promised Land, if you if youskip the crucifixion and go directly to the resurrection, it's not resurrection. It's just posting or pasting a happy smiley face
over the suffering of humanity. So I thinkyou were in the class. Was it yesterday that the woman brought this up? And as I said at the time, Karen, what I respected was that

(37:18):
she was very respectful, yes, but a lot ofthose, and this is, of course, a great spiritual challenge for me. First of all, when I first read A Course in Miracles, when
I not when I first read the course, but whenI first wrote a return to love. Yes, Oprah Winfrey opened the door. Yeah. Oprah Winfrey opened the door. Return. You would never

(37:42):
have read return to love. I'm sure. I mean,it might have been, yes, it would have been published. But, you know, the I the way it was given international exposure in
politics, I've had no Oprah Winfrey. No onehas said, we open the door. Here she is. Now, in my mind, what I have done in politics is no different than what I do in

(38:08):
with course, in miracles. What I've learnedabout myself is I'm a popularizer. That's what I do. I read this really thick book, and I read it, and then I go to people and
go, This is what it says. Okay, this is whatit says. And the people go, really, yeah, this is what it's really saying. I feel I've sat down the same thing with politics. I
look at it and I go, Hey everybody, this iswhat's really going down to me. It's the same thing. And it's always about saying, See, they're not loving, that's the problem.

(38:40):
They're not loving that's a problem, butthis is how we can change it. See the same thing to me, but in it's it's interesting, because no religious or spiritual. I mean, I
got some mockery, of course, but there wasno institutional resistance to my religious and spiritual career, I was and still am when I'm in that space, oh yes, loved,

(39:09):
appreciated, liked, and I can make a niceliving. Politics has been the exact opposite. In fact, when people say she's doing it to sell books, the way to sell
books in the spiritual world is to nevermention politics. Let me tell you something, Karen, some of my colleagues are even more left wing than me, but they keep their

(39:31):
mouths shut. Look

at don't think. I don't notice who isn't speaking up and who isn't saying stuff. When I think of white I know,

you know so. So it's very challenging for me, as you can imagine, and now for me in the in the course, it talks about God's plan of the teachers of
God, and how God knows how your and Jesus,really the Holy Spirit knows. He says, I know where your talents can. Best be used. So believe me, at this point, my blood,

(40:06):
sweat and tears, it has been devastating forme, not only, I mean, you really to wake up every morning, and you know they talk about you shouldn't online bully teenagers, but
for whatever reason, online bullying me gofor it to every single morning wake up and, you know, light about smear, humiliated, it's really attacked, judged, and then even

(40:35):
by the spiritual crowd has been that's myspiritual lesson and challenge. Somebody said to me this morning, something about some woman because I had gotten the text,
did you know she's dating so and so I went,Oh, that's so wonderful. You know, somebody found love. That's always a good thing. And they said, but wasn't she really awful to

(40:58):
you? I said, if I, if if I held on to everytime someone in the political field has abandoned or neglected or betrayed or I would just be one angry, pathetic old woman.
And that goes back to what you were saying.I'm a choice. I'm a choice. So yes, I it has been when people say, where's the love? Although I appreciate it, Karen, what you

(41:25):
said about that, about about No, not whatyou said, but in that class, the fact that that woman was respectful and bringing it up. You know, I had an experience over the
last couple of days that that has reallymeant a lot to me. One of the things, well, definitely, the thing that has been the hardest is how I have been caricatured as

ditzy, woo, woo,

not smart like they are. All that has been, you know, the insult is so strong, right? And how, and then I also felt within the spiritual world, and
this is why, and I've said this to youbefore, when I went to New Hampshire and you spoke to those crowds. And of course, we know had Reid Hoffman not given $2 million

(42:15):
for the Biden writer, and said I was nevergiven the chance within that world to get my sea legs, but to the extent to which I had any exposure, you were so out there, and it
meant so much to me and so many, even in thespiritual world, you know, entire consciousness, community, our colleagues, some of whom have known me for years,

(42:36):
wouldn't just make a video and say, I don'tcare about I don't know about our politics. You may or may not agree, but look, I've known look, I've known her for 35 years.
That's not who she is. Everybody's soafraid. Well, they made her radioactive. So if I defend her, take up for her, or stand with her, that'll make me radioactive. That
was so painful. I felt I was being sent.It's such, it's such archetypally, it was like witch burning, but all the people who were just silent while I was being led to

(43:04):
the so I had an experience. Just in the lastweek, somebody sent me a text, and I want to, I want to cover up the specifics to make sure, to protect sure, you know, somebody
said that there had been a lecture, and myname was mentioned in the lecture, and it was at a very fancy, prestigious place, and there was this, there was this lecturer, a

(43:32):
woman who is a teacher at a very Fancy,prestigious college. And it was about politics and love, and that my friend had said, You're mentioned. But one of the
things that I've seen so much of is thateven if someone wanted to point out where they agreed with me, they would make sure that you knew not that I take her seriously

(44:03):
or anything, right? Because a character ofme is, well, you can't possibly take her seriously. I mean, she's such a joke, right? So then, even if they go on to say something
in agreement, so long story short, becauseI'm, you know, I realize now all the things I should have spoken to, I should have said Stop right there. But at the time, somebody

(44:24):
told me, I heard somebody talking about howthere's actually a Japanese word for when it's like a fire hose. So much is coming at you, and so when you're actually running and
going through all that, you're in atraumatized state, yes, but now I'm not running. I have time, and I saw that, and I thought, I'm going to write to this woman.
And I looked up on the internet and I wroteher, and I'm healed enough that I'm healed of any attack. I'm healed of any I just said, this is what women are trained to do

(44:56):
to one another. Oh, my God. And I hope youwill see that Karen. Karen, I got the most beautiful letter back from her, the most beautiful letter. And first of all, I didn't
even think I would necessarily hear backfrom her second. I would have thought that if I had her back from her, maybe a condescending, well, you know, that sort of
New Age apology, like, Well, I'm sorry. Youfeel that way. I got such it was genuine atonement. It was amends. Is that you're so right, I threw you under the bus. I the way,

(45:27):
the way she apologized, and the way she evenmade an issue. It could not have been more profound and elegant and beautiful, for which I'm so grateful. So if we are open,
and it's interesting. I can see how it worksspiritually, because I have not wanted to be a bitter turn into a bitter old woman, because I have wanted to be forgiving,

(45:49):
because there's been that kind of clearingwithin myself. I'm not saying I'm completely 100% I'm not a perfect person, but I've really worked this. Worked at this because I
knew, Okay, you went to a brutal experienceemotionally. Now your choice, where are you going to go from this? You're going to be more open or more closed. And I think if I

(46:09):
had not done that work, I think even if I'dwritten to her, it would have had a little bit of an attack back, but it didn't, and it opened the space. So healing is always
happening. And I appreciate youacknowledging the the phenomenon it and I do think and tell me, if you agree with this, it's been an extreme animus towards me in

(46:41):
the culture, among people who supposedlywould call themselves feminists, there's been some strange, um, not just willingness, but eagerness. When, if you know anything
about how the system works, the DNC, thevery corrupt people at the top saw me as a possible threat and to get rid of her, and then they de amplify. I mean, even the women

(47:07):
on the view just take their talking pointswhen Sonny host and said how, you know, completely mischaracterized my work with AIDS patients. But I do there's still some
mystery to me. Karen. One woman came up tome recently a very powerful political figure in a major American city, and I had spoken at some only for a couple of minutes at an

(47:34):
interfaith something, and she came up to mealmost like she was stricken. And she said, I want you to know having heard you just now, I'm your fan. And she said, I I want to
tell you that, because before today, I wasnot your fan, I have said, I just want you to know that I heard her. I took it in, and I said I would only ask one thing next time

(48:02):
you hear a woman mocked me, she said, Iknow, I know. I can't believe it. I can't believe it. So we're all learning,

okay, yeah, we are all learning and and this is, this is the thing that drives me absolutely mental. So I found it so fascinating. I think you, you may or
may not remember the exact way that you'vesaid this, and I'm going to try to, like, cover all the bases, because you just said a lot when you came to New Hampshire in 2016

(48:38):
and I introduced you, and then you came outon stage, and you said, you basically said, wow, New Hampshire, you're like, the hotbed of activity right now. Like, how does this
feel? And you said, you know, my spiritualjourney actually began in New Hampshire when I was 14 years old, right? I went to Exeter school, and you, you said this, I was
looking through the book brochure, and therewas a class called and I wrote it down so I wouldn't forget philosophical interpretations of the question of God. And

(49:05):
you said

Unknown (49:05):
philosophical approaches to the question, okay? And you said

you shot out of your body with excitement. And ever since then, like that, ever since then, you have been you in your words. I wrote it down in love with classes
about religion, spirituality and philosophyand stuff ever since. What that tells me is that, since you were 41st, of all, okay, wait, since you were 14, you have been a

(49:34):
very serious thinker. There is nothing likeand this is, here's something I want to ask you, what year did your dad die? Do

you remember my father died in 1995

okay, because I was trying to remember at one point, I remember that I flew with you to Texas and we went to your. This house, and I remember being at the
table and just seeing you in, like, familytime with, like, all of your relatives. And I just thought this is fascinating, because I think you have always been and please

(50:15):
correct me if I'm wrong, because it was onlyone time that I was in the room with all of you at the same time, but I had a deep sense of like, you're a little different, right?
You were a little different than most ofyour family, etc. Okay, so here you are, this Jewish kid who ends up like discovering A Course in Miracles is not bogged down by

(50:36):
all of the language, and you didn't have tograpple with the terminology of like, whatever. So when you met Jesus, I feel like you know, not that you didn't know about
Jesus before that, but like you kind of metA Course in Miracles and these principles with like an open hat. What I'm trying to kind of put together is what is really

(50:57):
frustrating is somebody who knows youpersonally, and who like, lived like, lived in your like, lived I saw you every single day. I traveled with you. I watched you pack
your clothes. I saw you raise your dot likeI was around and I would be amazed. I don't say this lightly, I don't, you know, of course, the miracle says, reserve your offer

(51:22):
God, right? I don't have a lot of like, awefor my fellow human beings. I have a lot of respect. I have reverence. I have excitement and curiosity. But I don't know if I've I've
said to my sweetie so many times, you knowwhat? They don't get how fucking smart she is. You used to speak these lectures. Talk about like you would just go out on stage

(51:52):
and yeah, you brought your book, you know,in case you wanted to look up a particular thing, but no notes, never. I was living with you. I don't know if you remember this.
I was living with you when you first wrotethe first title of it was the healing of America. And you were so studious, and you really wanted to understand, and you were
talking about reparations before it was evena thing. And you out, and I'm not saying that. Listen, as you know, I don't blow smoke up anybody's ass. I You might be one

(52:21):
of the most intelligent women I have evermet. You are so your capacity to recall information is brilliant, but even more so your capacity to connect the dots and to
take this information to get intimate withit. Because one of my teachers is she's like a she would call herself, maybe a medical intuitive. She's a healer. And her husband

(52:51):
was, I think, a somatic therapist, but heonce said to her, and then she said to me, information isn't what heals. Intimacy heals. Oh, that's beautiful. And you have a
way of taking a lot of information, gettingvery intimate with it, curating it, connecting the dots to how it applies to us, and then you deliver it to us in a very

(53:17):
applicable way. I have always been blownaway by your intelligence, by how you could just and again, right? Let's go back to the prayer from A Course in Miracles. I am here
only to be truly helpful. I don't have toworry about what to say or what to do, because He who sent me will tell me you have always operated from that place. So it is so

(53:38):
incredibly it has been so incrediblyfrustrating to me when I would see you try to get a word in edgewise during a debate, or you'd be on even Bill Maher, God bless
him, but he interrupts right like so manypeople, they don't let you talk. And what I find fascinating is whenever, how do I say this? My problem with the media, my problem

(54:03):
with shows like the view, my problem withlike even TV shows and like all this stuff, they are trying to condense you, your brilliance, your point of view, your
history, your whatever, into these tinylittle boxes and these tidy little snippets and windows of time. And I'll never forget, I think it was the night you were on Trevor,

(54:29):
Trevor show, and he let you talk. And I'llnever forget him saying, You don't sound so crazy when they actually let you talk, huh? And I felt so vindicated, like I was like,
yes, like I was screaming at my TV. So thisis what I think, what part of the problem is in in America, and in how people create these caricatures of you, is. Don't do their

(55:00):
homework. They don't take time to read yourbooks. They don't take time to go in here you speak at length, because any person who has ever sat in a lecture hall with you
either says like, well, they've say manythings, but what it's either like, I don't get this because they're they are just not attuned to that, or they think, oh my god,

(55:26):
like, Oh my God. And I think that there's wedo this, we I think there's a lot of like, eye rolling that happens around love, and it will be our demise if we don't course
correct that.

Well, also eye rolling. If it's not, you know, if it's a male, oh my god, or someone who's like a male minister, then it's Oh, Reverend, thank you, or
whatever, yeah. Or if, if a male says it,you know, you could take some quotes from Martin Luther King and just not tell somebody that it was him. And those eye

(56:02):
rolls might come, but if they know it'sMartin Luther King that they can open to, they can see it, and they can see the profundity I

want to Can I interrupt you for a second? I don't know how long it's been since, and I don't know if you've ever gone back and seen this video of you. I
don't know exactly where you were, but itwas a conference, and it was something like a collective of different like religious groups, and there are a bunch of women in

(56:29):
the audience, and you started to talk abouthow, like, it was, like, I think I'm like, she's channeling right now, like she is just like on Fire right now. But you are
basically saying how that they fearindependent women, because independent women raise independent children and independent thinkers, and how it's such a threat to

(56:52):
them. Do you remember that conference, you

know? And it was, and I remember the movie that I got that from was there was a film called The burning times by the Canadian film board, and the concept was
that passionate free thinking women raisepassionate free thinking children, passionate free thinking children become passionate free thinking adults and
passionate free thinking adults are verydifficult to manipulate and almost impossible To control. Yes,

and I think that that sums up you. And I think people, it's easier to make fun of you, because what do we do we don't like, we put down we make fun of we other
what we do not understand. Yeah, and then,rather than doing our homework, and in rather than, like I said, you spend any amount of time with you, there is, there is

(57:51):
nothing like, I always say, it's not woo,woo. It's true, true. There is nothing like you have never been this. Like, whoo. Like, like, yeah, I don't think there's anything
more serious than love. I don't thinkthere's anything more serious and more powerful than love. And if they don't, if they whoever, if people don't start to wake

(58:22):
up to this because we've tried, like youwere just saying, we've tried the other stuff, you know, like, as you always say, the people who drove us into the ditch are
the ones trying to now tell us that they'rethe only ones who can get out of it. Please, please. We've tried your way, and look where we've gotten. That's

right. And also, I think that those people who simply made a decision that I would not be heard, they felt that democracy was threatened,
therefore they had to suppress democracythat didn't want my voice in the mix. They came up with a caricature that I'm not a serious person because they knew how serious

(59:00):
I am, see, that's the interesting thing.Some of them might not have understood the seriousness because you said they didn't read my books, they didn't come to hear my
lectures, but I think they did have a sensethat I could attract an audience if I was heard. And instead of seeing that as, Oh, great. Well, then let's see if it might be
something, and let the American voters, theDemocratic voters, decide it was like, it was like, put the lid on it and make sure that it's not out there. Not because they

(59:26):
thought I couldn't be successful, because ofthe level on which I, they thought that I might be. And it was undemocratic, and I think it contributed to the situation we're

in now. Well, let me ask you this. You said somewhere, having taught universal spiritual themes as articulated in A Course in Miracles for over 40 years, this
is pointing back to your book. You say noneof those themes have been more fascinating to me than the role of Jesus in helping to enlighten the human race. So this is like a

(59:59):
two part question. So what do you thinkJesus's role is right now in enlightening the human race? And what is, I guess I'll simplify it. I'll just say, and what's your
role right now? Like, where are you pointingright now? Like, where is your energy and your focus? I mean, I am in touch with you, I see. But for people who maybe don't know,

(01:00:20):
who are curious, like, what's next? Forwhat's next? Or where are you going next, or whatever? Well, the first

Marianne Williamson (01:00:25):
question was about Jesus. So let's take the Jesus part first. The Course of Miracles indicates he became, while on this earth, completely purified of
all fear, so that only divine consciousnessor love remained within his mind. That is the same thing as saying he became completely enlightened. It is the same thing

(01:00:47):
as became saying he became completely selfactualized. It's the same thing as saying he became one with the Holy Spirit, having thus become one with the Holy Spirit, the Course
says he is then authorized by God to helpthe rest of us. Should we request it? If you don't request it, it would be a violation of your free will, but if you do request it, he
said, I'll come into your thinking. I'llcome into your mind. My mind shine with your mind can shine away the ego that has been his role, that will always be his role. Once

(01:01:13):
God has created something, it's unalterablein terms of me. Now I'm like everyone. This is not a moment when any of us can figure out what to do. Karen, this is a moment when
humanity is at this incredible inflectionpoint in much in the way that you and I discussed before the mind that can figure it out is already stymied here. So I think this

(01:01:39):
is a moment you know, people say all thetime about our political situation and so forth, what do we do? This isn't a moment for knowing what to do. This is a moment for
deep receptivity, preparing your vessel,making yourself available. If you're going to build a big, tall building, you're going to have to have a deep hole in the ground
right now, it's about trying to prepareourselves and being very aware. I feel with the people I know, with the people I come into contact, with you, I sense that it's

(01:02:13):
almost as though not that the universe isdifferent, it doesn't change. But I have a deeper awareness of the intentionality of the universe, the Course in Miracles, says
God has the answer to every problem themoment the problem occurs. We are democracy, and I do believe that American democracy has been and continues to be a great light upon
the planet. It is wounded. It iscompromised. It's it's definitely not. In good shape. But I believe that God, once again, God, has the answer to every problem.

(01:02:49):
Moment The problem occurs, it like works,like a GPS. You take the wrong turn, and God knows we've made the wrong turn. The Universe, the GPS recalibrates, and it
calibrates through each and every one of us.So I'm in a state of not knowing there's a certain level in which I'm sure you are too. I'm sure that's where everybody I think

(01:03:10):
consciousness right now, the highest spaceis, I don't know. Be an empty rise, like it says in in the in the Eastern religions, be an empty rice bowl. Present an empty rice
bowl to God. So the Western mind, Westernmaterialism, is, I gotta figure it out, and then after I figured it out, I'll let God know, in case he's interested. This the, you

(01:03:32):
know, Bill Thetford, one of the scribes ofthe course called the course, the Christian Vedanta. It's emptiness. Use me. Use my hands. Use my feet. There's that beautiful
part in the course. Use my hands, use myfeet. Where would you have me go? What would you have me do you have me say? So I have felt in my own life, my healing from what I
have gone through. Yeah, you know, sometimesit's interesting, because people will say, Oh, she's doing it for her ego. What could possibly be more ego crushing than what I've

(01:04:03):
been through, right? So, but isn't thatinteresting? For instance, I'll give you an example. What, what sentence encapsulates the Course in Miracles, more than this,
world is an illusion, and in return to love,there's a line. Sickness is an illusion, because I'm talking about Buddhists. Of the world is an illusion, like you said. Maya

(01:04:25):
Einstein said, time and space, or illusions,albeit persistent ones. I'm talking about the chorus. So those who were seeking to create this narrative to completely
peripheral eyes. My voice came up with thatline, in return to love. She says AIDS is an illusion. She told people, I know, so really, if you think about it, what could be

(01:04:48):
more perfect? What could be more perfect,and then also what you said before, she's really not very smart, you know, what could be more perfect? What I can see that from
some level, Marianne. If you can, if you canget through this intact, if you can get through this intact. So I know that intellectually, that my emotions aren't

(01:05:09):
always caught to that place, but we're allgoing through exactly what we need to go through, and it's not any different in anybody's life than in anyone else's so what
that's supposed to mean. You know, we bothknow the principles. It means that right now I'm supposed to be in conversation with you. That's always supposed to know right now, I
don't know. What am I supposed to do? Idon't know. Talk to Karen. Well, I will tell you that's what's happening in this moment. Therefore I know that this is what's

(01:05:36):
supposed to what are you going to do? Idon't know. As long as this park has his own maybe has some dinner,

Karen Kenney (01:05:41):
something, something that has helped me a lot, is a line in the course that says a healed mind does not plan. Yeah, and I always say to my friends, my people,
in my group, I say it doesn't mean you don'thave a plan, like you can talk about your plan. It just means don't make the plan by yourself, like I have been calling upon like

(01:06:03):
again, I always say to people, I don't care,call it Jesus. Call it the internal teacher. Call it Holy Spirit. Spirit. Call it intuition. And what I don't get hung up on
the names, but all I know I'll never forget.You know Jack Canfield, so Jack, I happened to be in an event one time that he was speaking at, and the woman who was putting
on the event was a friend of mine, and soshe's like, come sit at the table, like, with me and Jack. So I got to I was like, one chair over from him, and it was really

(01:06:32):
funny, because, like, I was vegan, andnobody made me any food. So Jack's like, have the potatoes off my plate. And we struck up a conversation. He was a sweetie,
nice. And I had told him, you know, that Iknew you. And he was like, oh, and like, you know, I remember texting you while I was at the event to tell you, but he asked all of
us to go around the table and introduceourselves and tell him what we're working on, whatever. And I remember when it came to me, I just said, you know, here's the thing,

(01:06:58):
I do. A lot of things, you know, I've been ayoga teacher forever. I'm a spiritual mentor. I'm a writer, I'm a storyteller. I have a pod all these things, and I said, but
all I know is, every day I wake up in themorning and I say a few prayers, and one of them has always been, please have me go where you would have me go. Have me I go,
because here's what I know. And I go, if I'mdriving the bus alone, we're fucked. I go like, if I'm in charge, if those younger pots of myself or some ego part of me is

(01:07:26):
fully in charge, we are in trouble. And I'llnever forget, like Jack was just took a bite, put his fork down, he finished chewing, he looked at me, and he's like, You
need to write a book about that. And I said,What? He's like, You need to write a book entitle it. If I'm driving the bus alone, we're fucked or something like that. And I
thought it was, like such a fascinatingmoment. And later, he and I had a whole conversation about swearing, and it was really interesting. But I'll never forget

(01:07:53):
him saying that. And I think, Wait

a minute, go ahead, in the realm of book publishing, yeah, that's like a big deal that Jack Canfield sent out to you. Let's get into the world here for a
minute. Did you write that book? No, Ihaven't. You don't get publishing advice from Jack Canfield and then not do it. Karen,

I know it's like, it's in there somewhere, but I'm trying to get this memoir done. I'm trying to get this memoir done. And you know, it's a love letter to my
mother, amongst other things, but it's alsomy spiritual journey, and that's why I say, oh, there's a chapter on you in there. There's a chapter on all these things. And
it's interesting, because the working title,which I think will be the title of my book, it's literally and it's a play on multiple facets. And you use this word earlier, but

(01:08:40):
I'm calling it evidence. And it's about,obviously, evidence of a crime scene, evidence, but evidence of God's love. Like, there's a lot of plays on this evidence that
I always belonged whatever it is, and so Ido, though, trust me, I have like a file where I'm like books, book titles, books to write personal essays, whatever and it's on

(01:09:01):
there. If you had told

me that day, I would have gone into this big thing about in the universe. If you're sitting next to Jack Canfield, then he says, write a book. I also
want to mention a quote from the course inline with what you were saying, beware the danger of self initiated plans. Oh my gosh, because that's that's really the issue here.
God's plan will work. Yours, won't you don'tknow what's going to happen tomorrow. You don't know where your your skills and expertise fits into the larger picture. So

(01:09:32):
you don't have any serious rock on which tostand when you were planning what's going to happen, you don't know what's going to happen. It's true.

I think we're an impatient bunch, though. I think we absolutely

well. And there's a line in the course only infinite patience produces immediate results. And

there's another line that says something about how I'm going to. Butcher it. But the the essence of it is basically like, those who only those who know are
those who have faith, can can like, can bepatient, can wait patiently. No,

someone, I don't know the exact line, but yes, can afford, yeah, can afford to be That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And I think that
that's really God's answer to what thequestion that we're talking about right now, right something is and you feel it even in terms of this moment. Something is
activating. Yeah, you know, sometimes peoplewill somebody. People will say to me, I've heard it a lot in the last two weeks. Why aren't people in the streets that it doesn't

(01:10:37):
that doesn't mean people don't care. It'snot the zeitgeist of the moment. First of all, the forces that be don't care about people in the streets anymore. I mean, Black
Lives Matter. Was the biggest protestmovement in American history, and they were like, Yeah, so it's different. Something's happening inside. Martin Luther King said,
Do not mistake Our material passivity forweakness. We are spiritually active. So you might look at people and go, nobody's doing anything. People are thinking. People are

(01:11:08):
processing. You know, when you go throughsomething terrible, you don't immediately rush out and act necessarily, unless it's like the house is on fire. It's like, you
go, Wait, I gotta think about this. I gottathink about this. And that's where I think we are. So nobody can know, you know you you do the work in the vertical, and then you

(01:11:29):
get direction on the horizontal. And just bevery alert to every circumstance and every connection. Be very alert. You know, I've always felt that my or since I've known to
even think about these things, that one ofmy own character defects is I get there late, whether it was a relationship or city I lived in, it's only later that I realized

(01:11:58):
I could have been so much more present. Mm,I could have been so much more present. I could have brought so much more of myself to it, and if I had, I would have gotten so
much more from it. And I think now it's justvery important we be very present, that whatever the relationship is that you're in, and I mean every relationship, every

(01:12:21):
circumstance, we tend to say with our egominds, this circumstance matters, those don't matter. This relationship matters. Others don't matter. If you if you feel, as
Mary Morris always says, There is no spotwhere God is not every single moment, every single encounter, every single relationship. If you really make your prayer, I want to

(01:12:45):
inhabit this space at the highest way.Sometimes I'll say to myself, I want to be the Marianne. I want to be the version of Mary Ann who could handle this really well,
right? Which sometimes is easier to do thanothers, and to really be present. That's where the future is born. So I think if we will really inhabit the space of this moment

(01:13:08):
as beautifully and with as much availabilityand receptivity to what's possible for us and others, then incredible things are going to happen, even with what's happening in the
United States. This story is far from over.And, you know, they say in AA, every, every problem comes bearing its own solution. We're we're going to grow up now, as Lincoln

(01:13:39):
said, as our case is new, we must think anewand act anew. We must disenthrall ourselves, and then we will save our country. Can you believe he said, We must disenthrall
ourselves.

I think that you know here in the illusion, because we do have, we have the belief of that we've successfully separated, and, you know, we do, quote,
unquote, have bodies and nervous systems,and the amygdala is firing these chemicals. And I think for a lot of people, we have a lot of trauma, and a lot of traumatizing and

(01:14:16):
very young people all across the board,right? I think understand, like, who's not who hasn't been traumatized, but I feel like a lot of people hijacked by their fear
centers, right? And they don't always knowthe tools that are absolutely they don't know all the tools that are available to them. I've been really, you know, I about

(01:14:42):
three years ago, whatever I became, I wascertified to become a hypnotist. And I don't necessarily super identify, like, Oh, I'm a hypnotist, but so much of what I've been
learning more and more about neuroscienceand the brain and the nervous system things that just correlate with what I've learned through yoga or, you know. The last 25
whatever he is, but one of the one of the Ilove how in A Course in Miracles, and every time you say it on a call, whatever it just, it makes me laugh. First of all, before I

(01:15:11):
forget, am I the only one that finds ACourse in Miracles and Jesus wicked funny? I think there are so many times when I'm reading the course and I just start laughing
at some of the things that he says to usabout, like, our foolishness and like, like, it's almost like, yeah, you can keep doing that, or you could, like, whatever. I laugh
all the time, but

I, I have never felt, Oh, he's funny, but I have felt he's so cool,

right? What's I always say he's, like, our cool older brother, like, like, the good

hair, like, this combination of brilliant and, yeah, those moments when this could not be just a regular human being who wrote this,

yeah. I mean, when I say funny, I don't mean like ridiculous, but it's more like he's, he's so honest and direct about laying out to us our situation
that we somehow are not seeing ourselves,and it just strikes me as so funny and interesting. But anyways, my point is is that a lot of people don't, when you use the

(01:16:12):
words a part of our problem solvingrepertoire, right? I don't think a lot of people think of Jesus is being a part of their problem solving repertoire. So I want
to say two things. So like, behind me, it'sinteresting, all these pictures that you can see right here, these are all like pictures of Jesus, like paintings. And there's a

(01:16:32):
brilliant he's a he's, I don't know if he'sChinese. I'm not sure what, what his heritage is. His name is young Sun Kim, and he's a Christian artist, and he paints
these, there's really tender and beautifulpaintings of Jesus. And I always say to people, Oh, it's my Jesus wall back there. And people were like, Oh, you were like a
Catholic kid, right? And I said, Yeah, but Ihad a really interesting thing that happened when I was about 13 years old. It was right after my mother had had been killed, and,

(01:17:04):
you know, I was a Catholic kid, so thisconfession, whatever have you ever been like? Have you ever you've never gone to Confession or anything like that, right?
Because it's not your religion, okay? Sobasically, you've seen in a church the confession booths, right? So there I am at Saint Patrick's in Lawrence mass. Never
forget it, you know, I go in, and part of itis you have to go in, and you feel like you're in a spy movie, because they're sitting on one side with a little slider,

(01:17:28):
and they're in the dock. And then you go in,and you got to shut the curtain, and automatically, you're like, oh, this has to be in secret. So I must, I've done some bad
things, just like she I got to go in thedock and admit these bad things, you know. And then they slide it open, and the first thing you say is like, Forgive me, Father,
for I have sinned. It's been this long sinceI've been to confession. And then you get to tell them all the bad things you did, all the sin, all the sinning, the sinning you've

(01:17:53):
done. And then the priest will say to you,okay, say your act of contrition. And then they basically, like, give you your punishment. Like, go up to the front of the
church, say this many Hail Marys, whatever.Now I'll never forget this. I mean, back then, there was no again, talking about my mother, there was no therapy, there were no

(01:18:13):
books, there was no hugging, there was nocrying, there was no like, so I'm pretty sure I had PTSD that I was like in shock, and I was a smart kid, but in that moment, I
totally forgot my act of contrition, andI'll never forget my sister was sitting outside on one of the pews waiting to go in after me. When I told him I could not

(01:18:34):
remember my act of contrition, he startedscreaming at me, like yelling at me, and I will. And maybe he wasn't screaming, but he yelled. I was embarrassed. I was humiliated.
And all I kept thinking was I know my sistercan hear this, and I know she's loving every second that I have this and I'm being embarrassed. And there were other people in

(01:18:55):
the church, the old ladies, who had come topray before Mass and stuff, and I was just so humiliated. And he's like, go up to the front say, this many Hail Marys, this many
AFAB is blah, blah, blah. And I shut thething, I slid open the curtain, and there was my sister with this shit eating grin on her face, and I just felt like I got angry.
I got really angry. And I remember marchingup to the front of the church, and I plunked down on the pew and the altars in front of me, and there's like jumbo Jesus. The

(01:19:24):
Catholics love to make Jesus' suffering sohuge. He's like jumbo Jesus hanging. And I look over and I saw a statue of Mary holding baby Jesus. And I was like, just so grateful
in that moment to have the memory of acompassionate mother. And I remember looking up at Jesus. I remember looking around at all the stained glass windows, and I said to

(01:19:46):
Jesus, and I said to God, this is what Isaid. And I think this is what made you possible. Also in my life, I said, Look from now on, I literally said this. I'll never
forget I go look from now on, if you gotsomething to say to me, and I got something. To say to you, we're going to say it to each other, like, go through that guy, no more of
this middle man stuff, good for you. And soI think that's why the spiritual mentor, I always say, I say it about I say I'm a spiritual mutt, but I've always said I'm

(01:20:15):
like, Look, Jesus is a free agent. Like,Jesus is too cool for just one group of people to claim him. And

that's, of course, what this book is about, too. Yeah, monopoly, you speak. Will you speak about that a little bit? Well, it's everything that you just
said that he knew. No group, no institution,can own the stars can own the wind can own the breeze can own the sunlight. And Jesus is that as the name of our shared identity,

(01:20:43):
at one with God, no institution, noreligion, regardless what it claims, can claim an ownership of that or monopolize it. And that, I believe, is the tremendous
spiritual awakening that's going on aroundhim. Now, when I wrote this book, it was because my editor had called to say, you know, we keep getting calls from booksellers

(01:21:08):
who say that people are coming in andsaying, I want a book about Jesus, but I don't want a Christian book. Do you have any books that talk about Jesus, but not
Christian specifically? And they said, Don'tyou talk about Jesus that? I said, Yes, of course I do. As a student of A Course in Miracles, I want to ask you a question, yes,
tell me about Tell me about your sister.Now, did she grow up and move in a similar kind of direction to you? Did she psychically survive all that intact? Is,

um, my sister went in a really different direction than me. I mean, she had her first baby at 18. She has two sons, so she became a mother at 18, like my mother
became a mother at 20, my sister became amother at 18, and she is she was married for a period of time. She's not married anymore, but no, she, she's, I'm like, the weirdo in

(01:22:07):
the family, right? Like, I'm the spiritualvegan yoga. Roll your eyes. I'm the, I'm like, like, you talking about, like, on a larger scale, kind of being the butt of the
Yeah, yeah. So I followed in your footstepsin that way. So I'm off in the, you know, you know, Auntie, you know, whatever you know. And it's, I've just kind of realized

(01:22:33):
that my sweetie once said to me, like, didthe did the stork drop you off at the wrong house? Like, what happened here? And I laugh, and I said, Well, you know, if I
listen to A Course in Miracles, the stormdropped me off at exactly the right house, and I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be, for whatever reason. I don't always
understand it, but I trust that there'ssomething smarter than me. And you talk about GPS, you know a lot, and I always say, like, you know what GPS stands for, I say to

(01:23:01):
my friends, God's pretty smart, so I trustthat you know I'm where I'm supposed to be. You could have, if you had told me as a kid, growing up in Lawrence, Massachusetts, that
I was going to move to Los Angeles. Meetyou, go to Egypt, go to England and Ireland. Become a 35 years whatever student of A Course in Miracles, become a spiritual

(01:23:28):
mentor and a yoga teacher. If I would havelaughed. I mean, there was just no, I am the most like as for somebody who has had a lot of fear in my life. I think this is one of
the reasons why A Course in Miracles hasspoke so deeply to me. I don't know if you saw a few moments ago when you said, you know, Jesus literally, basically became like

(01:23:56):
he had no fear, and my hands went to my hat,because I'm like, I can't, like, oh, it's gonna make me cry to be able to move through the world with no fear, like the longing
that I that I have for that within myselfand, of course, in miracles. First of all, I think it's really misunderstood a lot like you. I think it gets misrepresented in a lot

(01:24:22):
of ways, but A Course in Miracles doessomething to my nervous system. The lesson the other day that said God goes with me wherever I go, I was just like, no matter
how many times I've heard it, read itsomething, my vagus nerve, like, everything, just goes into parasympathetic and goes, like, oh, like, I don't have to figure this

(01:24:43):
all out on my own. Like, oh, I don't have toknow the answer to everything. Like, I can be in the mystery, like, I don't have to have all the solutions and fix things. Like,
my job is to just listen for the voice forGod and you. Actually, I have this mocked because I want to read this little section. This is the section. This is in the book,

(01:25:07):
the small still voice within. And I lovethis so much. This is what you said, Is it weird when people read your words back to you?

It's interesting. You'll have that experience soon. You said,

it's you said, listening to the voice for God is a habit we cultivate the mental musculature of grace, who among us hasn't decided something we came later to
regret remembering that at the time, we hada gut feeling it just wasn't right, but we'd gone with some worldly voice that said differently, allowing it to override our

(01:25:41):
internal knowing, walking through life,taking seriously the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the mystic Jesus, the voice for God. We know that the voices of the world should
always be listened to, but they shouldnever, ever have the final say.

You know, Karen getting older, that's a large part of what the chapter three of life is looking back. And there's a lot of self forgiveness that is
involved in looking at situations where, ifI'd only paused, if I'd only prayed about it, if I'd only pray before I walked in the room, like you said, prepare my nervous

(01:26:32):
system, if I'd only, if I'd only said, CouldI have a weekend to think about it? If you know, and you realize life would have gone that way and instead of went that way. But
then I have to remind myself, God, your bodymight be older, but the way the universe doesn't universe doesn't age. So that is as true now as it ever was. Be there now, be

(01:27:03):
that more considered person now, because welisten to some other voice, I've made some big mistakes in my life, you know, because I listen to some other voice, we all do that.
That's how you learn to start, no, I'm goingto think first, and I'm going to pray about this. And thank you, though, I'll get back to you. You don't even, you know, might not

(01:27:27):
even be someone around whom it isappropriate to say, I'm going to pray about it. They wouldn't, but you could say, you know, I'm going to think about that. Thank
you. The most powerful people don'tapologize for wanting to take the time before they respond. It's

so true. I think that sometimes we there's a fear of like, a fear of like, well, if I don't respond quickly, I'm going to miss the opportunity. Or if I,
if I don't, if I don't do something, youknow, right away, somebody else might whatever, whatever is it

that I know? Well, I know for myself, it's more it's not okay to not know that's a sign of weakness, as opposed to, you know, it's like in the Roca
in that wonderful Letters to a Young Poet,he says, when you don't have the answer to live the question. And like I said, if you really look at the most powerful people,

(01:28:22):
they're not in a rush to come up with ananswer, and they don't apologize for that.

Let me get back to you. Let

me get back to you. I remember even on a business level, I remember someone I don't know, an agent, a lawyer, or someone who said to me, really
good advice about business meetings and waswith editors or publishers or something. He said, you know, Mary Ann, just beware. You don't have to say anything. Huh? I love

(01:28:50):
that. That song, Billy Joel, leave a tendermoment alone. So even in personal, intimate relationships, women are afraid sometimes, but that's sometimes. Our silence is very
magnetic.

It's true. So I want to, because we just mentioned prayer, and it's, this is a two part thing, but I want to tell a little story first, and then I want to and
then I'll ask you, I have two questions. Soyou may or may not remember this, but when we were in Montecito, and I was living with you, and I was around a lot you and I had a,

(01:29:27):
we had a we had a fight. We had Yeah, no,no, hit about, I honestly don't know it could where I was putting the mail on your desk, what I didn't do. I don't know what it
was. I don't remember. I remember thatoffice. I remember that house. So it's like, burned into my mind. I remember where your bed was, your changing room, where the

(01:29:48):
dresses were, like, I just remember Danielin the kitchen, Blue Bird. Like, I remember all of it, right? So it's like, burned in there. But I'll never forget coming through
the front door, and you would come in thedoor. Yeah, I think the stairs would go right upstairs, and your office was like to the right, and then there was a door from
your office into the living room that wentout back where you had the roses. Remember you said cut roses all the time.

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THE MYSTIC JESUS with MARIANNE WILLIAMSON

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