December 12, 2023 • 60 mins
This week Sara and Jim sit down with polygraph examiner Johnny Hartley to learn everything you could possibly ever want to know about the science of lie detection. Johnny speaks at length about just how different the reality of being testing via polygraph is to how the process seems on TV and in movies. He also answers questions about admissibility in court, the history and advancements of the technology, and dispelling the myth that you can somehow cheat the system. As the show wraps up, Johnny talks about going through life as a human lie detector.
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Music – Caleb Fletcher
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Music – Caleb Fletcher
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:22):
Hi, everybody. This is thePresumption Podcast. I am one of your
co hosts, Sarah Sorry, joinedby Jimmy Griffin. Jim Griffin, Sorry,
Hey, good afternoon, Sarah,Matt and Matt Our lovely producer,
and we're joined today. We arejoined today by Johnny Hartley. Welcome Johnny,
(00:43):
Thank you man. And I mean, I just got to know him.
He's wild, he's fun and I'mreally looking forward to this interview.
Jim has obviously known him for manymany years, but John and he is
supposed to stay in touch with mebecause he wants to come to Hollywood anyway.
(01:07):
Johnny Wayne Hartley as a professional polygraphexaminer. Born this isn't his own
words, born a country boy,but is now officially cidified. The seventh
of a small family of ten children. He spent his earlier years growing up
on a farm, hence country boy, and in the seventh gradest family moved
to the city where he was cidified. Johnny attended Clemson University and graduated in
(01:32):
nineteen seventy four with a major inpolitical science and a minor in psychology,
with the hopes of going to lawschool. Aren't you glad he didn't?
Do that, Johnny. While atClemson, he started working for the South
Carolina Law Enforcement Division SLED as aphone boy on holiday, spring break and
during the summer. After graduating,he was persuaded to go to Polygraph School
in New York City and become theyoungest polygraph examiner at the time. He
(01:56):
then attended and graduated from the FBIAdvanced Polygraphs School at Quantico, Virginia.
In addition, he's participated in datagathering for JOHNS. Hopkins University Applied Physics
Science Department, where they used informationfrom real polygraph exams to develop algorithms to
score polygraph charts conducted on computers.After twenty seven years of service with SLED,
(02:20):
Johnny is now retired and now thesole proprietor of polygraph Exams in Columbia,
South Carolina. He's based primarily inthe Southeast, but works on cases
and test clients all around the world. He's assisted on every type of scenario
imaginable. Oh wow, this isgoing to be interesting on both sides,
law enforcement, criminal defense, privateand public. His cases have ranged from
(02:44):
low level local cases to high profilecases that gain national publicity. He says
with near certainty that he probably hasadministered and reviewed more polygraph examinations than anybody
ever because he has been actively conductingthem for forty eight years. So welcome,
Welcome Johnny. Thank you man,so says around the world. He's
(03:09):
not lying because I'm not going tosay where I sent Johnny, but he
was on a Delta one seat forover twenty four hours. I believe in
one of my cases. Is thatright, joh I know a case.
I know a case. So youknow, I was talking to Johnny last
night. He actually stays up laterthan you, Jim. I call him
(03:31):
Cinderella. He was up to likeeleven forty five and he's like, oh,
can you can you can you talkat eight forty five year time?
I was like, I'm sure that'slike eleven forty five year time, but
okay, And anyway, we werejust talking about how, you know,
people have heard obviously about lie detectorsand polygraphs and this thing that catches people
(03:53):
in lies, and it's not admissibleevidence, but it's got some sort of
value in some cases. And Ijust think that what people don't at all
understand because I guess it's not youknow, we don't see it in a
trial to see it on TV isfrom beginning to end? What like,
what is this? What is this? What is the equipment? What are
(04:14):
the steps that somebody like Johnny takes? So, Johnny, if Jim calls
you, I'm his client and wantsme to take a polograph for some reason
that he's worked out with the prosecutoror whatnot, and you come to Jim,
can you do it in Jim's officefor example, if I went there,
Yes, okay. So if Iwent to Jim's office and you show
(04:35):
up to do this polygraph on me, walk us through everything that happens in
this testing and also what happens before, during, and after. Okay.
So when I'm first contacted by anattorney or whoever's requesting into polographic exam,
(04:56):
one thing I like, we saidup the date and time in the place,
and I prefer to do it inthe attorney's offices because the client feels
more comfortable. Because everything I dofor attorneys is client privileged, and I
always tell them it's more client privilegedthan talking with your attorney, because the
attorneys have the authority to talk withother people on behalf of their clients,
(05:18):
like call me, give me information, and I can't talk with anyone unless
the attorney or the client tells meto, So I do prefer to do
it in the attorney's office. Sowhen they called up and want to schedule
the exam, they tell me,just like maybe in a sensitu what the
(05:40):
case is about, whether it's amurder case, sex case, drug case,
or broadcase or whatever. What Iprefer to have is I like to
get as much information as I can, such as the rest warrants, incident
reports, statements, things like that, because with that it gives me an
(06:01):
ideal of what the game is aboutand who the players are, instead of
me going in blindly and talking withthe examinee and having to get that information
from them. So I have alot more knowledge when I get in and
know kind of the area that wewant to go toward. So if fraternity
(06:27):
calls me up and say, hey, here's the questions that I want to
ask about my client, Okay,I'll listen. You know, received the
questions or whatever, and I'll alwaystell them and says, okay, well,
we don't really know what the questionsthat are going to be exactly until
I actually talk with the client tosee what they understand about the questions,
(06:54):
because no, too, human brainsare the same, obviously, and whatever's
a good question for any I mean, whatever is a good question for you,
Sarah or Jim or Matt might notbe a good question for me about
that same issue, simply because notum brings the same. But we don't
understand the thing. For instance,if I worked with you, Sarah,
(07:15):
and I said, hey, Ineed to run some errands. Can you
do this for me while I'm going? And you say, yeah, I'll
take care of it. And Icome back and I say, Sarah,
why didn't you do what I askedyou to do? And you say I
did. I said, no,you didn't, girl, And he said,
WHOA wait a minute, Johnny,I thought you meant, so what
you thought I meant is not thesame thing I thought I was meant when
(07:36):
I was telling you. It's amatter of perceptions. So basically, we
had a failue to understand the communicationbetween us with the polograph with the questions.
We absolutely cannot have a failue tounderstand the communication between us as to
what those questions mean. Okay,Having said that the questions are the most
(07:57):
important part of any aleographic saying ifyou ask the wrong questions, you could
get the wrong results. Okay,And I mean, Johnny, you're so
right about that. And I guesspeople don't quite understand if you can give
some examples. I mean, Imean, you know, oftentimes you'll have
a pre interview, like for lawenforcement, you have a pre interview before
(08:20):
the test, and one of thethings that you don't want to ask is
you know, did everything you justwas everything you just told me true?
I mean, that's one that everybodywill fail, right, absolutely, And
that is so with the testing techniques. The most popular single issue testing technique
(08:41):
is called a zone of comparison orby zone. So if there's a zone
of comparison, there's basically three relevantquestions in three comparison or control questions.
But with a by zone, thereare only two relevant questions and three control
questions of comparison questions with the UHthe third question in the zone of comparisons.
(09:03):
A lot of times they will putdown just like Jim just said,
Uh, did you line any toany part of your statement that you gave
the law enforcement or something like that. Well, there could be something that
you just did not remember, andthen you just lie. What about Johnny,
what about lying by omission? Youcan do that too, So well,
(09:26):
no like it okay, and youI mean hold on im speaking of
the questions very important. I'm notarticulating my question really well, if that
the the law enforcement questions, likeif you did the pre interview, like
Jim said, but he was askedsomething and he didn't affirmatively lie about it,
(09:48):
but he just changed the topic anddidn't answer it, then that's only
the examiner. The examiner has topick up on that their experience to know,
Hey, let's get back to whatwe're doing. We focus on this
single issue. It's it's super hardto uh and not as accurate if you
(10:11):
test on more issues because the waythe polygraph works, especially the computerized potograph
with the algorithms, it scores thewhole examination one fatality. So you don't
get like, okay, you passedthis question at R five, but you
(10:31):
didn't, but you fail that areseven. Okay. That's not the way
it works because let's say and whenI say are, that means relevant questions,
and basically with the bizone, youask those two relevant questions, they
are bracketed by the control questions.So Let's say if you numbered you charge
(10:52):
one, two, three, four, or five six, that make nine,
and we have other numbers in frontof them, like C four,
C six, C nine means comparison. But so you bracket the relevant questions
by that. But both of therelevant questions are related to the same issue,
the basic question asked a different way. For example, I just got
(11:13):
through doing a test today on anarm robbery with the assault and the or
for who for like prosecution or defenseher defense? Okay, So so the
examinee was accused of helping steal thisyoung lady's car, but she also said
(11:41):
they pistol whipped her and hit herin the head. M well, and
they took her car, all right. So they called him, but he
said he never hit her with thepistol, and so when I went to
talk with him, I tried toexplain to him. So we wanted to
find out whether or not there wasany conspiracy to rob her because they took
(12:03):
a person and everything like that,and the main thing was whether or not
he actually hit her with the weapon. And so I couldn't just ask him
because he did admit that they didplan on stealing the car. It's just
fur the moment, thanks that,Hey, let's go take that car.
Okay. So with the question,I could not ask did you plan to
(12:24):
rob her? Because they did robthe car of me to steal the car,
so I would have to ask somethinglike that, did you hit in
the victim's name? Did you hitJane Doe with a pistol when you helped
steal her car? Mm hmm?Because if I just said did you plan
(12:46):
with someone to rob if the thingabout oh, well yeah we did,
we planned to steal the car,then he's gonna fail that test. Yeah,
So, Johnny, how about therelevant questions? Are the questions that
you're testing on, whether lying ornot? Now controlled or comparison questions.
Those are questions that you know thatthe examine is going to react to and
(13:11):
so don't you. So that's howcan you explain that what's the purpose of
the comparison or the control questions?Are absolutely so let me tell you about
all the questions. So basically there'snine questions in their space when you ask
them about twenty five SectionMS apart withthe computerized program because the computer needs between
(13:33):
twenty twenty five seconds to collect thedata after you ask the question and it
accumulates all of it for how manyother charts you run. So basically you
run a minimum of two charts forthe polygraph to the software to work to
score, and anywhere up to maybefour exams. So basically you ask and
(13:56):
you could ask anywhere from eighteen tothirty six questions. So like the first
question would be something like are younow sitting down? Okay? Second question
be like do you intend to answereach question truthfully? About robbing the TD
bank and lexing in South Carolina forinstance. So that second question is what
we call a sacrifice relevant question.You're there to take a test on whether
(14:22):
or not you rob the bank.All right, I'm asking you a question
about robbing the bank, but itdoesn't count as far as the score,
And it's the second question in theprocess, and it's we're sacrificing that.
So if you react to that,that's okay, it doesn't count because the
question is do you intend to answereach question truth I'm not asking you if
you did it or didn't do itokay, so we don't count that.
(14:45):
That's also kind of like what Jimwas mentioned earlier, did you lie to
any part of your statement? Thoseare kind of the same kind of thing.
So if you react to it,that's fine. But then the next
question be outside the issue question likeis there anything else you're afraid I'll ask
you a question about. So afterI explained everything and go of the issue,
and we come up with the question. I don't have the questions,
(15:07):
uh typed into the test template beforeI meet the client. Like I said,
I don't know what the question isgoing to be. Your house going
to be worried until I meet them. Oh wow, okay, Okay.
So you get the you get thethe documents, the case, the discovery,
(15:28):
and you review all that and yousort of have an idea of well,
you talk to the lawyer you knowwhat they're what they need, and
then and then you formulate the questionswhen the client gets there, because why
well I'll formulate because I'm will almostalways the examine, which is my client.
(15:52):
As far as a polygraph tells mestuff that they do not tell their
attorney, almost always. Okay,So a lot of times I'm doing fact
finding. I'm trying to minimize thesituation by trying to find something that can
help the attorney to minimize the youknow, the the accusation of the crime
(16:18):
or whatever. So what side gemand I have a client where you know,
we have we have those come toJesus moments with our clients, but
sometimes it takes a long time toget there, so we just send them
to you. There's another purpose fora polygraph. It's sort of gets to
the bottom of stuff for us.That's good to know. Well, sometimes
I have been referred to as thepriest. Yeah right, Actually this sheriff
(16:44):
and us to Georgia, Richmond County. He calls me the priest because I'm
trying to get people to uh thepast the polygraphs so they can get a
job there. And not very good, not very good. Love. Let's
to ask a question really about thehardware that you're working with. If I
may, you mentioned computers and algorithms. I'm just curious, you know,
(17:07):
how has the polygraph technology changed overyou know, you said you've been doing
this for forty years, where computerskind of always a part of this process.
Is this still that stereotypical image I'llput it up right now where it's
just like a guy sitting across fromsomebody with some straps and wires or am
I just like thinking about this likeit's the nineteen eighties and we are doing
(17:30):
all kinds of crazy shit now whereyou don't even need wires, you know
what I mean? Like, what'swhat are we dealing with here? Why
is there an algorithm? Hey?I love the eighties. Don't go right
on the eighties? Eighties? Okay, yeah, but I'll answer the question.
But let me go back to thequestion Jim was asking about the relevant
questions. Okay, So the controlquestions of comparison questions are what we call
(17:56):
probable lies, which means there's twothings in life everyone has done. Everyone
has lied, and everyone has stolen. Okay, And if someone tells me
they've never stolen anything, they justdid the other. They just lied.
Whether or not it's an ink pinfrom an office or or anything that you
didn't ask permission for, it isstill stealing, whether it's candy or whatever
(18:17):
else as a child. All right, So they're probable lies. The control
questions are related to or similar innature to the actual issue question. For
example, if it was a fout, my control question would be before you
were whatever age I put in there, do you remember That's the key question.
(18:38):
Do you remember ever stealing anything?Serious that you haven't been called for.
That would be the questions that thenthe next question would be like before
you were twenty five, do youremember ever lying to anyone in authority about
something serious? And then the lastcontrol question pretty much would be before you
(19:00):
twenty five, do you remember evercommitting a serious crime that you haven't been
called for? Okay, So,if I was Johnny, if I was
a lawyer, whos committed a crime? And that's why I hate when they
say criminal lawyers, like, no, criminal defense lawyers, and you're you're
taking my polygraph, and I'm like, I can get really, I want
(19:23):
to parse down. You know,I'd be like, I don't understand what
you mean by authority. I don'tunderstand what you mean by I mean.
Do you start reformulating the questions onthe spot. No, I'll break it
down. I can get simple withit, like have you ever lied to
your parents about slipping out their authority? Have you ever lied to a teacher
or a professor? Okay, okay, someone, So you mentioned there are
(19:48):
nine questions. How long does theexam take? All? Right? The
examination? Well, each chart,So if you take the nine question,
you do it twenty twenty five seconds. Each chart takes four minutes, four
and a half minutes or something likethat. And so with the computer rised
potograph, when we pull up thechart there it has a little red button
(20:17):
obviously to start recording record button,and then there's a time bar on the
software at the bottom. It startsgoing across and it shows you how much
time it is, and when itgets all the way across, it resorts
back to the beginning for the nextquestion. Okay, so you take those
nine questions in twenty five or soseconds or whatever, about four minutes.
(20:42):
All right, After you get throughrecording the first chart, you hit the
little red button to stop recording.And when you do that with a commuter
rized potograph, a little window comesup and says that was a big window,
but anyway, a little window comesup and says do you wish to
appin a another chart, which meansdo you wish to add another chart?
(21:03):
And you just have two words there, yes and no. You can't exit
the program unless you say one ofthose two. All right, if it's
the first chart and you exit theprogram, it's going to tell you that
it did not have enough data toscore the chart. So we never say
no after the first one unless theyomit something or want to stop and tell
you something. But so then wehit the record button again, we do
(21:27):
the same thing again. Yep,that's all we need for two charts.
Then we say no at the end. And when we say no after we
recorded enough charts, automatically it scoresthe chart before I can go anywhere else
and it lets me know, okay. And so so, Johnny, you're
(21:48):
talking about probable lives and then therelevant questions, and so that the algorithms
compare the reaction to the probable livedquestions to the relevant questions, right,
yes, absolutely, and that's whythey're similar in nature. Now, another
thing that really is you won't answerMatt's question, which is like a person
walks in the room, like whatwhat? What's the technology? Is still
(22:11):
what I'm curious about, especially whenyou when you are talking about how the
system allows you to like go yesversus no. Like half the time I
do control P to print and mycomputer says there's no printer, even though
there's a printer right next to mycomputer. I just how how long have
we been putting all this in thehands of the computerized technology? Probably about
(22:36):
probably about thirty five years for ayear and it's still be kind of same
setup that that you see in themovies like Meet the Falcons or something.
That's sure definitely not okay. Ihave never polographed anyone in the bathroom or
(22:57):
anything like that. So basically thepolygraph actually I think started. I always
tell people this, whether it's trueor not, but I do know that
it probably started in eighteen ninety fiveby a guy by the name of Sieves
(23:17):
of Lombresso, and I think itwas called the hydro spigmagraph. It dealt
with water and things like that.And then there's been new technology and new
inventions like Galbini came up with theGSR, the Gavanic skin response, Bevenussi
came up with the new mocubes,things like that. But I always tell
people like, back in the Cabandays, they had polygraph examers. Did
(23:38):
you know that? Oh yeah,they had witch doctors. So if there
was like somebody that was a theftin the tribe, they would get their
suspects and they would have them tellthem that they had to walk through this
tunnel without lights obviously, and itwas real narrow and there was a donkey
(23:59):
in the middle of the time thatthe only way you could get by was
pull the donkey's tail for him.Let you buy okay, and if you
were the one that stole the stuff, he's gonna know it and he's gonna
kick you to death because you can'tsee it. Well. Lo and behold,
what they did was put charcoal onthe donkey's tail, and you checked
(24:21):
your hands when you came out theother side, get and pulled the tail.
That's the potograph we need these days. But anyway, with the with
the algorithms, okay, we'll goback to the when the potographs started coming
out with the pen and paper,the charts and stuff like that. Without
(24:47):
a doubt, you can manipulate thosecharts because you can manually turn the little
dial for the sensitivity to make itmore sensitive to a reaction, okay,
to whatever question you wanted. AndI actually had a case for a court
(25:07):
martial care case of something like atthe Citadel where someone did take an exam
and the examiner did do that,and I noticed it right away that's what
he did, which you could dothat. But with those with the old
polygraphs with depending paper, basically wewere taught that there were twenty two criteria
that the examiner would use to determineif someone was lying or tell them the
(25:30):
truth by looking at the paper chart, seeing the changes, the degree of
changes, and things like that.Supposedly, with the computerized polygraph, there's
over two hundred pack here because you'redealing with the computer monitors broken down into
thousands of pixels, and the softwarecan tell the difference between one and two
pixels, where we couldn't tell thedifference between one and one hundred without zoom
(25:52):
any in. So it's a lotmore scientific enough. So when I participated
in gathering data for Johns Hopkins University, I was working at SLED and the
three guys underneath my supervision we alsowe actually conducted real criminal cases and sent
(26:12):
back on floppy disc to the scientistsup there, and they took those those
charts. Uh, and they youknow, did what they did as you
know scientists, and developed algorithms thatactually score the chart. Now, so
we I think, yeah, goahead, so we match question. You
(26:33):
know what, what what are youmeasuring the polyes? What are the different
things are being grapped? Yeah,okay, so we've been doing to hear
this we've been down to hear this. It's podcast. We gotta we gotta
build something. Are you sure?I'm pretty about Okay? So i'most I
(26:57):
might answer Jim's question just as ifI was examining someone. Okay, And
I'm gonna I'm gonna use you,Sarah, because you were easy to use
like this. Okay, how sobecause you have like a sense of humor
(27:18):
from Okay, all right, soI'm gonna use Sarah. Okay, Sarah,
I'm gonna pretend, just like yousaid, you're a examinear a client,
you get ready to take the testfrom me, and I'm a fucking
liar. You're to bust my ass. Okay. So what I'm gonna do
is like, okay, uh,I'm going to I'm I'm going to go
(27:44):
into detail with you about how apolygraph actually works. Okay. Would it
surprised you if I told you probablyhigh of all polygraphic examiners don't even know
how a polygraph works? With thatsurprise you, No, wouldn't, because
I've had two and I obviously itwasn't really explained properly to me. Well
(28:07):
do you know how I know that? Yeah? You know how I know
that how because I'm a smart fellow. Do you know how I know I'm
a smart phone because you're cidified.I have a smartphone. Okay, With
a kick of a button, Icould take a picture of you and send
it my two daughters in northern California. Just like that, I can make
(28:30):
magic happen. See how good Iam? And I'm a go make cook
too. I can go to Walmartand buy some pre cooked Jimmy Dean turkey
sausage, put it on paper plate, put in the microwave. He had
one boom, It's done? Ormake time? No? Everything in life,
the only thing we're concerned with iscan you learn how to do it?
Are you a Carmeen Cannon, MM. Sarah or car Kennon?
(28:52):
No? No, of course not. Oh I'm sorry no, no.
The first thing about it, okay, I'm sorry. So you don't know
how to drive them? Right?No? I know to drive? Well
wait a minute, you know howto drive a car, but you don't
know how it works. Everything's thatway. When you go to school you
take math, the only thing youconcerned with is can you learn how to
do the problems? When you geta job, the only thing on know
(29:15):
is can you do the job right? Can you learn how to do the
job. It's the same thing whenyou go to polygraph school. Typically,
when you go to a polygraphs school, the people that are teaching you aren't
even polygraphic examiners themselves. There arepeople with a lesson plan. That sounds
weird, but it's not. Everythingis that way. Do you think a
fifth grade science teacher is a scientist. No, No, they're probably a
(29:38):
pe coach that got stuck with abunch of braddy fifth graders. The point
is when you get when you getthrough with the polygraph course, you will
know how to give the test.And that's all you have to know how
to do because it's computerized, right, so you're just operating, You're just
essentially they're just going through the motion, going through the motion. And that's
(30:02):
also where the questions come yet beingthe most important because basically no one can
beat a polygraph. Maybe steals,c I A, spiles things like that.
Uh, And the main reason isbecause you can't beat yourself. Okay,
so when I explaining this to you, you're gonna know what I'm talking
about, all right, So whatdoes a polygraph record if you google it,
(30:25):
it's gonna say blood pressure. Okay, and actually just like that right
there, blood pressure, come right, go around your ar. Okay,
you're gonna say blood pressure, heartrate, changes, perspiration, a nervousness,
(30:48):
anxiety, all those things like that, breathing. Okay, pretty much
all those things are lies. Okay. But but but if you get a
pro lithic liar who believes his orher own lies, like just everything is
a lie, Like, does thatstill affect those things? Yeah, we'll
(31:11):
talk about save that question to afterI get through explain this and then we'll
answer that one. So anyway,pretty much all those things lie. I
have never ever recorded anyone's blood pressurebecause I need a stethoscope with a manual
cuff. I don't have a stetscope, and there's nothing digital build in like
(31:33):
they have now. Okay, sowe do not record blood pressure. Plus,
if I had to record someone's bloodpressure every time I asked a question,
possibly I would have to record theblood pressure maximum thirty six times.
We'd be in there all night.We don't record blood pressure. When you
put the cuff on the arm,you actually only inflate it to about seventy
(31:55):
five to record your blood pressure.You need to pump it up to about
one hundred and eighty to two hundredsand let the air start coming out.
So we do not record blood persons. Another thing, we do not record
changes in your heart rate. Itdoes not tell me what your heart rate
is. The only way I'm gonnaknow what your heart rate is is for
me to manually count every stroke cardiacstroke in sixty seconds. Okay, but
(32:22):
there's no point in it because whateveryour heart rate is, once we start
to test it, it does notchange whether you lie tell the truth.
This is easy to explain. Itdoesn't change because heart rate is measured by
beats per minute, which is sixtyseconds. These questions to ask every twenty
twenty five seconds, which basically meansthat I could ask you three questions in
(32:45):
just a little bit over a minute. Nobody's heart speeds up for twenty seconds,
settles back down for twenty speeds upfor it doesn't work that way.
When your heart rate increases, it'snormally calls by one or two things,
predominantly either exercise or anxiety. Right, So either one that causes your heart
rate to increase for it to settleback down to normal, it takes minutes
(33:07):
of deep, slow, relaxed breathing. We don't have minutes. We have
twenty to twenty five sectors. Sobasically, what we found out with this
cardio cuff, it's a cardio cuffthat's recording your cardio pattern all the way
across. I'll see your size,stalk stroke, your dive stalk stroke,
your amplitude of your heart beat,the longitude, the baseline changes, top
(33:30):
line changes, exorcisties, all kindsof a fIF anything like that. I'll
see those, okay. But basicallywhat we found out is that the scientist
said that if the person produces ablood volume increase, in other words,
that if your heart pumps out moreblood during any twenty twenty five seconds,
it's one hundred percent that you justlie. Okay, So my question is
(33:53):
to the scientist was how can yourheart pump out more blood without beating faster?
They explained it it actually squeezes hard, kind of like if you had
a water bottle like this you had. What if you have a heart condition
that does that, and it's completelyunrelated to line you do your well,
(34:14):
your medical conditions don't like come factorin no, So we're looking for timely
increases, Okay, And everything wedo is that's why we asked the uh
the questions on multiple charts. We'retrying to see if we get the same
reactions on each location. And it'salways nine questions. No, it could
(34:39):
be ten. I mean some otherpeople do other techniques like sky or something
like that with a suspect and no, did you, uh? Do you
suspect? Do you know? Diddo you? Things like that, you
can do a testing technique we calleda modified relevant question, and those are
questions that you're basically asking evidence connectingquestions like did you rob the TD bank?
(35:01):
Do you know where any of themoney is from the TD bank?
Do you know where the gun is? Things like that. So, but
the more you ask, the lesschance you have of getting a good test.
Let's chance you have them what ofgetting a good test? So,
Johnny, you're talking about heart rate, is you know all these like blood
(35:22):
pressure cuff? I mean that's justall for show. I mean so no,
No, there is actually a reallygood purpose part because like with your
heartbeat, you have the die productnow twists the valve that's letting blood out
and then closing that to keep bloodfrom coming back. So that actually can
(35:42):
move too under tracings. So wedo use that. We're looking for that.
But almost everybody I polographic, evenif they're on blood pressure medicine,
the heart rate's going to be alittle bit higher or even vastly in higher
then it would be normally when theycome in. Depending on that also depends
on the case, so you know, their anxiety, fear, or whatever
(36:05):
else, so it could be ofit. But yeah, we do use
that all right. Other things thatwe use now we have we have the
Gavernant skin response with the two littleelectrodes because on your corner finger and your
ring finger. And they say,what they're trying to tell you is that
we measure sweat perspiration with that.I'm gonna tell you, if I had
(36:30):
to measure people's sweat, that wouldbe the nastiest job in the world.
And I don't think, Sarah,you won't be putting anything on you that
I just came from prison measuring someof those people's sweat. No. And
also think about this, I've neverheard of a sweat number two yet.
I mean, it sounds like acool thing to measure sweat. I just
(36:51):
have no desire to invent that ortry to do that. So basically what
we do use the gathernant skin response, and that component is used for other
things too, is used for mentalhealth testing too. So basically with that
we're trying to measure any kind ofpsychological changes your brain sends down your arm,
(37:13):
through your sweat, lands on yourfingertips to the sensory neurance in each
fingertip. We have over three thousandsensor neuron in each fingertip that stretches about
one tenth of the intra cost totip of our fingertips. Our fingertips and
our lips have the most sensoryneurance ofany part of our body. So in
our fingertips, yes, ma'am,have the most sensor renurance of any part
(37:37):
of our body. And that's whatwe're using with those electrodes. Okay,
And so when we get when wesee that there's a psychological change, and
that could be caused by obviously picturescoming in your mind about committing the offense
that you're accused of, and we'llget into that a little bit too.
So anyway, that's what we dowith the Galverlent skin response. Okay,
(38:01):
With the two tubes, uh,they're called neumotubes. There's two of these,
okay, right, all right,So with those they're called pneumatic,
which means air. One goes aroundthe top of your chest and one goes
around you out of it. Okay. And with this right here is it's
(38:24):
called a motion sensor pad. Theycommonly refer to as a countermeasure pad.
You sit on that, all right. So with these components, I'm going
to record any kind of movement,breathing, talking, sneeze and hiccups,
cough and laugh and sign you ownand giggling, nodding your hands, shrugging
your souls, flexing your muscles,wiggling your toes, heightening your butt muscles,
(38:47):
anything you do that goes through yourspine. Okay, guess what everything
you do? Pretty much everything youdo goes through your spine. Right,
Your spine is your main supervisor ofyour body as far as sending and received
messages, right, okay. Imean, like if you have a stroke,
one side of the body's paralyzed.You can't move, so people get
(39:07):
hit on the football field knocked out. First thing to matters check is fingertip
movement, toe movement, feelings,things like that. M hm. Okay,
So I have a question, Sarah. If your spine is your main
supervisor of your body as far assending and receiving messages, where does the
spine get its orders from? Wheredoes what does spine get its orders from?
(39:30):
My brain? Absolutely? See thisis another weird thing. Have you
ever thought about yourself as being thebrain? Sarah? You are the brain,
Sarah, you are the brain.You are the big boss, the
head honcho, the mastermind. Allright, correct me if I'm wrong.
But you can't do or be anythingin life. But except whatever you the
(39:52):
brain wants you to let you ormake you am I right, Well I
wish, I wish, but okay, yeah, yeah, but we're all
the brain though, we're all thebrain, all right, Okay, I
can except we don't, but wedon't control the brain. M hm,
Sarah. Wave your hand? Wow, that was weird? Was that weird?
(40:19):
Do you? Sarah? Was thatweird? Yeah? Because you're having
me do weird ship. I don'teven I don't even have the straps on
and stuff. Shit. No,I saw that hand. I looked straight
at that hand on the screen hereand told you you to wave your hand,
and you did. Does that handhave ears? No? Brain telling
(40:42):
the hand to do it exactly.But I wouldn't talk to you talk to
the hand because the ears are notlistening, remember right, So what just
happened was your brain just sent electricaland chemical messages through and this is how
the polygraph works. M h.Your brain just sent electrical and chemical messages
through over one hundred billion neurons inyour head. One hundred billion. That's
(41:07):
a lot. As a matter offact, if you had to count to
a billion, one at a timeeach second, it would take you three
thousand, one hundred years impossible todo. Yet, not only did you
send the messages through those hundred billionneurins, you send them across bridges,
across the snapsis and you have overone hundred trillion of those. You send
(41:28):
them down to your spine, yourspinal card, and back throughout your body
to tell your hand away. Hey, just like that, actually, way
fasteran Just like that. You justsent those messages at approximate two hundred and
seventy miles per hour. Wow,that's fine. Have you ever measured two
hundred and seventy miles per hour?No, I'm gonna let you do it
(41:50):
now, I'm gonna ask you somereal easy questions, real fast, and
see how fast your brain works.These are easy. But don't worry,
Jim. And that's gonna do thesame thing, even though I'm not telling
them they do it. They're gonnado. Right. What is two plus
two four? What's your mother's firstname? Say? What colored vehicle?
Did you actually dead? It's thatwas her first name? Though? Yeah?
(42:15):
What what vehic? What color vehicle? Did you come to work today?
In? Great? Right? Allright? So, Sarah, those
three verbal responses that you just gaveme, there are two major problems with
them. Why Because one, theyweren't two hundred and seventy miles per hour.
(42:37):
I'm going to explain that to you. But the biggest problem is those
weren't even the answers to the questionsthat I just asked you. Well,
I mean, I was going tosay none of your business, but that's
but you didn't. You didn't.But so what now? So Sarah,
you thought those were the answers tothe questions? Right? M hm?
(42:59):
No, let me explain it.Here's what just happened. Your brain analyzed
my question basically before I was eventhrough, a picture of the number four
came in your brain. A pictureof your mother's first name came in your
brain, maybe her face. Apicture of whatever type of vehicle you came
to work in to call it gray, and even probably where you parked it
(43:21):
came in your brain. Right,those pictures, those pictures that came in
your brain, those were the answersto the question. Now, what you
did with those answers without even thinking? You sent message through those hundred billionears
across those hundred trollion bridges down toyour spine, your spine, car back,
up your neck, your throat,your vote card, your vocal bout
you learned she dove on your lips, in your tongue for you to make
a sound. The sounds that youmade were actually the result of having the
(43:45):
pictures in your brain. If you'venot got any pictures in your brain,
you wouldn't even know what kind ofsound to make, right, So if
I lied about my car, likelet's say my car is red or something,
those that would make up those thingsright now. Actually, actually,
if a picture of gray came inyour car and you tried to change it
(44:07):
to red, that's called disassociation,and that's something that some people try to
use as a countermeasure to beat thepolygraph. But actually what you're doing,
you're placing more emphasis on your carbecause you're taking the gray and changing it
to red. And people try todo that. Actually you've called them the
(44:28):
bigger reactions. So basically, whyare people I mean not what people,
but what you know, polygraphs areconsidered unreliable and in admissible. I mean,
I know that. Jim's probably ofall the attorneys I've known from coast
to coast, Jim is probably theone that like actually ends up doing them
(44:51):
every so often for some reason.But for us, it's like, we
don't talk about it. You know, law enforcement likes from here it's a
shortcut. I mean, that's no, we don't. We just don't.
I mean I've had two, uhin my entire career. Both been in
the context of rape cases. Theyhave not been a standalone they have been
(45:13):
just an added sort of layer towhat I was presenting. And it's because
the DA was agreeable to my examinerwho passed away, but he was,
you know, pretty renowned here,Jack DeMarco, and you know, and
it just does that's not even thenorm. So you know, why is
(45:37):
it is there anywhere that's admissible,New Mexico, New Mexico, Okay.
And why do you think you dothis for a living? So obviously it's
got value. So why, inyour opinion, are people reluctan or you
know, why is the system soanti polygraphs? It's unreliable? Probably by
(45:57):
word of mouth of people say,oh, I took a pall and just
said I lied and I didn't so, or I know this person took a
test and he beat the polygraph becausehe did do what they said he did,
but the examiner said he didn't.But here's the thing about it.
Why do law enforcement use it somuch? If it's not any good?
Why does the federal government use it? Why does CIA use the FBI?
(46:21):
Why did they use it if it'snot any good? Well, i'll tell
you, Johnny. They use itto try to, you know, get
a statement of confession out of somebody. Honestly. You know, when I
was at the US Tourney's office,we had a bank robbery case and it
was accessory after the fact, andand you know, they had we had
this defendant in there and she saidthat she was not aware of the guy
(46:44):
robbed a bank and and so shesits down for a polygraph and and the
polygraph examiner says, you flunked thetest. I don't know if she did
or didn't flunk the test, butthen she changed her story and said,
yeah, I did know, youknow, et cetera. Then she goes
back and tell the lawyer said,you know, I told the guy that
I knew because he said they weregoing to take my kids away from him.
But I didn't really know. Imean, I mean, it's so
(47:06):
easy to get someone to change theirstory when you in the face of some
some some something you know. Ijust absolutely it's basically what that is is
a false confession. And it's justlike you said, it's it's you know,
they're trying to intimidate you. Ididn't allow that when I was in
charge of the polograph for a sledwith my examiners, and also I tried
(47:30):
to steer them away from doing amulti issue question like the modified general question
technique. I just wanted something specific, right right, So you know my
biggest there are a lot of times, I mean, what they kicked the
lawyer out. So I have aclient and you know it's going to sit
(47:50):
for a polygraph, Well that's theonly time that law enforcement can interview my
client without me present. And Idon't like that, but you know that's
just how they your client can refuse. Yeah. But also, Jim,
I mean I know when we werewhen I was doing it for law enforcement.
If the attorney says, hey,I want you, I want to
see the questions that you're going toask, there should be no there should
(48:15):
be no problem, And then youcould say, Okay, after the test,
I don't want you talking with him. I don't want you answering him
any questions. Then I couldn't aslaw enforcement because you'd already told me.
Well, Jim, are you talkingabout a pre arranged situation where you've agreed
to your client doing polygraph for it? Well, so, I mean,
(48:36):
here are a lot of times inplea agreements you know you've got to pass
a polygraph to the satisfaction of thefederal government. I mean, right,
Alex Murdoch, Every federal pla agreementis like that. And and Johnny,
I mean what you said. Imean they changed the damn play agreements in
South Carolina because of what I usedto do. I would say, hey,
(48:57):
client, no matter what he says, she says, you did you
failed, don't say a word tohim, come out and talk to me,
and then you know, we justwalk off. But now under the
federal agreements, and you know theyinclude passing it to the satisfaction, is
that you have to you know,you can't just refuse to answer the post
polygraph questions. I mean that's thewhole process, you know. And and
(49:22):
the only time they ever put yourclient on them polygraph is when they think
your client is lying because he's notsaying what what they want to need to
be the case. Now, ifyou have a client going in and lying
on another person to make the government'scase against the other person, they never
put him on the polygraph. Yeah, because they don't want to discredit.
(49:43):
They don't want to. They don'twant to like let it be perceived that
they don't believe their witness or whatever. Johnny, how much do you charge?
Well, what it's depends on thecase. How much you charge to
polygraph me to fly out there?No, Well, if you're talking about
(50:09):
I'm not talking about flying out hereand me helping you in Hollywood and stuff
like that, that's great. Okay. I don't charge as much as other
people because I do so much andI don't really need to and don't care
about it. I charge basically fivehundred and five fifty for a polygraph exam
here in Colombia. I have todrive a couple of hours. Let's say
(50:32):
right then you add to your travelat your travel time. But if Jim
says to you, hey, youknow you need to polygraph Sarah, she's
my client, but she's got topass. She has to be no way
that's up. You know, you, Sarah would be the most important person
(50:57):
as far as coming up with helpingme come up with the question. And
it's your test. It's going toshow whatever you show. Okay. I've
been offered a lot of money topass some people. I don't care about
it. I mean, that's allit takes is one situation like that and
your career is going forever. Youwouldn't even do it for Jim, Jim
(51:21):
Griffin, forget it. Let meask you this because I had this come
up once. I had a bunchof Russians from the state of Georgia who
were on a ship and came intoCharleston Harbor, and they thought that they
were illegally dumping offshore. So theyhad the big investigation, and we had
and they wanted to do a polygraphon a couple of them that I was
(51:45):
representing. And and and because theysent a State Department translator down, you
know, we had our own translatorand it was a question about whether translation
was accurate, so our translator wasallowed to sit in the pre interview.
And and that guy reported after thefact that the polygraph examiner gets in my
(52:06):
client's face like two inches away,accusatory, like you know, I know
you're lying, I know you're lying. And then and then puts him on
a test to see if he reacts. I mean, absolutely not. You
can't do that. But you're right. But you know how when the lawyer's
kicked out of the room and noone's in there, I mean, I
get that story all the time,So you wouldn't believe that guy was playing
(52:28):
games with me. He did this, that and the other. And that
is I mean, isn't that away to manipulate the results when the examiner
now more than likely, more thanlikely you're examining your examinee, your client
is going to fail that test.Okay, we you do not polygraph anyone
immediately after they have been interrogated.Or anything like that, you did not
(52:52):
do it, okay, well youdon't. And that's another reason we review
all the questions the examinees before westart because we want to make sure how
they answer the questions and things likethat, so we review those. We
do not ask surprise questions okay,because you will react to that. So
(53:15):
basically what happens is every every day, our mind takes millions and millions of
pictures and videos of things we see, say, do touchstakes here, peel
okay, but we forget them.But if I ask you a question,
if you know it, if youremember doing it, or you or you
know it, you cannot stop apicture from coming in your mind. Ka.
(53:37):
For instance, three plus three sixcame in both yours and Matt's mind.
Okay, Red apple, yellow banana, zebra, pink elephant, All
those pictures come in your mind.So basically, what I'm trying to do
with the question, I'm trying tosee if you're lying about remembering doing something,
not if you've done it, okay, I mean, not if you
(54:00):
line and telling truth. I'm tryingto see if you lyne about remembering doing
it. And like I say,we forget everything we do but if you
do remember it, a picture ofvideo comes in your mind, and if
a picture of video comes in yourmind, they're going to be details,
all right, depending on what thatpicture of video means to you, your
well being state, to you,whatever else determines where your brain sends messages
(54:23):
to And you can't stop because youdon't even notice in it. So Johnny
one of them. We're about towrap it up here. But every federal
polygraph I've my clients have had todo in the last you know, every
they pretend like they have a qualitycontrol and they have a second person review
(54:45):
everything. And I mean sometimes likeI did one in Raleigh a few years
back, and the quality of controlguy was in South America somewhere. I
mean, if it's all computer algorithms, is I mean, is that just
bullshit? So I went I visittheir quality control up in DC whenever we
(55:05):
started doing that at SLED. WhenI was there, could wrote the policy
for polygraph procedures and everything like that, and so then I was put in
charge, well not put in charge, it was an additive of a responsibility
which I thought was already doing.I had to review every polographic exam that
was conducted by my examiners and signoff on it that I reviewed. Okay,
(55:27):
but those like that were the federalgovernment for what I understand, unless
they change. If you had someonedo it and Raleigh or wherever else and
they were to send their exams somewhereelse, it's gonna be a couple of
weeks before they come back to confirmit. I know the GBI does that
in Georgia. I know a coupleof their examiners. When they do an
exam, they have to send itoften for the final verdict, so to
(55:52):
speak. Which why if you're anygood, it's a computerized like you said,
so it's what are they doing?What I mean that? Okay,
I can understand that back in theday when it was paper and dark now,
but no, just computers. Ihave no idea how those algorithms work.
(56:15):
I'm not that smart, and neitherneither as law enforcement like that.
So I mean, I don't understandthat, and I think mean, I
mean, yeah, the mischief,the mischief that takes place is in the
room before they plug the guy upto the machine. And my opinion,
no, no, yeah, soI can't hear you guys. You're there,
(56:42):
Johnny we're here. We're here,Yeah, just like a moment of
I don't think you got that.Well. I wanted to ask one more
question, but I didn't. Also, I know we're already running a little
long here. And it's actually moreof a personal question for Johnny. You
spent your entire life, you know, reading people on a lie detector,
and I just wonder does that spillinto your personal life at all? Do
(57:06):
you find yourself being a sort ofhuman lie detector when you interact with people
in your daily life out a doubt? So then the larger question, this
is like a philosophical question, butdo you feel like people are generally very
truthful or do you get is yourbullshit meter going off all the time.
Well, that's a hard question toanswer because it depends on when you say
(57:31):
people are generally truthful or lyned.It depends on what you asking them and
stuff like that. To say,I tell everyone that I'm pathy. I
can read minds, Like Matt,right now, I'm reading your mind.
You want me to tell you whatyou're think? Yeah, that I'm full
of shit. I was actually justthinking about the zebra and the pink elephant.
(57:55):
I'm still cycling through all these triggerwords, but keep going. But
so a lot of times I donot even need to polygraph at all to
tell a lot of times I knowthat they're going to admit to me before
I ever even get to the questions. It happens a lot of times.
(58:16):
Okay, I need you here inl A. Yeah, Johnny, he's
a great party. Guess you'll bringhis polygraph everyone. I need you Okay,
I'm ready after the holidays. Sowhen are you coming out? You
have do you have a family familyhere right in San San Francisco, Santa
(58:38):
Rosa, sabat But I'm coming out. Yeah, I'm coming back in March.
Just let there for thanks. Comingback in March. But I think
we're going down to San Diego orsomewhere for the Lego factory or whatever.
Yeah, leg there you go.So if Jim has our mugs, I
(59:02):
don't know how many has left.There's a couple of people that are on
the list for them. Johnny getsa mug. If not, we're going
to order more. It's like,yeah, sorry, you have to look
at our mugs. On the mugI'll definitely earn a mug. And speaking
of watching the show, Hey,you can check us out on YouTube,
(59:24):
YouTube dot com slash at the presumption. If you're not already subscribed, please
do you. We're on all thepodcast platforms. Oh, I wasn't talking
to you, Johnny. I wastalking to our listeners. But hey,
if you want to subscribe, I'ma listener now, all right? Love
it? And uh yeah, Idon't know jim say or anything else you
(59:44):
guys want to say before we wrapit all up. We really appreciate you
coming on, Johnny entertaining no questionabout it, I mean, really amazing.
I really appreciate you. And untilnext week, Jimmy, we
Hi, everybody. This is thePresumption Podcast. I am one of your
co hosts, Sarah Sorry, joinedby Jimmy Griffin. Jim Griffin, Sorry,
Hey, good afternoon, Sarah,Matt and Matt Our lovely producer,
and we're joined today. We arejoined today by Johnny Hartley. Welcome Johnny,
(00:43):
Thank you man. And I mean, I just got to know him.
He's wild, he's fun and I'mreally looking forward to this interview.
Jim has obviously known him for manymany years, but John and he is
supposed to stay in touch with mebecause he wants to come to Hollywood anyway.
(01:07):
Johnny Wayne Hartley as a professional polygraphexaminer. Born this isn't his own
words, born a country boy,but is now officially cidified. The seventh
of a small family of ten children. He spent his earlier years growing up
on a farm, hence country boy, and in the seventh gradest family moved
to the city where he was cidified. Johnny attended Clemson University and graduated in
(01:32):
nineteen seventy four with a major inpolitical science and a minor in psychology,
with the hopes of going to lawschool. Aren't you glad he didn't?
Do that, Johnny. While atClemson, he started working for the South
Carolina Law Enforcement Division SLED as aphone boy on holiday, spring break and
during the summer. After graduating,he was persuaded to go to Polygraph School
in New York City and become theyoungest polygraph examiner at the time. He
(01:56):
then attended and graduated from the FBIAdvanced Polygraphs School at Quantico, Virginia.
In addition, he's participated in datagathering for JOHNS. Hopkins University Applied Physics
Science Department, where they used informationfrom real polygraph exams to develop algorithms to
score polygraph charts conducted on computers.After twenty seven years of service with SLED,
(02:20):
Johnny is now retired and now thesole proprietor of polygraph Exams in Columbia,
South Carolina. He's based primarily inthe Southeast, but works on cases
and test clients all around the world. He's assisted on every type of scenario
imaginable. Oh wow, this isgoing to be interesting on both sides,
law enforcement, criminal defense, privateand public. His cases have ranged from
(02:44):
low level local cases to high profilecases that gain national publicity. He says
with near certainty that he probably hasadministered and reviewed more polygraph examinations than anybody
ever because he has been actively conductingthem for forty eight years. So welcome,
Welcome Johnny. Thank you man,so says around the world. He's
(03:09):
not lying because I'm not going tosay where I sent Johnny, but he
was on a Delta one seat forover twenty four hours. I believe in
one of my cases. Is thatright, joh I know a case.
I know a case. So youknow, I was talking to Johnny last
night. He actually stays up laterthan you, Jim. I call him
(03:31):
Cinderella. He was up to likeeleven forty five and he's like, oh,
can you can you can you talkat eight forty five year time?
I was like, I'm sure that'slike eleven forty five year time, but
okay, And anyway, we werejust talking about how, you know,
people have heard obviously about lie detectorsand polygraphs and this thing that catches people
(03:53):
in lies, and it's not admissibleevidence, but it's got some sort of
value in some cases. And Ijust think that what people don't at all
understand because I guess it's not youknow, we don't see it in a
trial to see it on TV isfrom beginning to end? What like,
what is this? What is this? What is the equipment? What are
(04:14):
the steps that somebody like Johnny takes? So, Johnny, if Jim calls
you, I'm his client and wantsme to take a polograph for some reason
that he's worked out with the prosecutoror whatnot, and you come to Jim,
can you do it in Jim's officefor example, if I went there,
Yes, okay. So if Iwent to Jim's office and you show
(04:35):
up to do this polygraph on me, walk us through everything that happens in
this testing and also what happens before, during, and after. Okay.
So when I'm first contacted by anattorney or whoever's requesting into polographic exam,
(04:56):
one thing I like, we saidup the date and time in the place,
and I prefer to do it inthe attorney's offices because the client feels
more comfortable. Because everything I dofor attorneys is client privileged, and I
always tell them it's more client privilegedthan talking with your attorney, because the
attorneys have the authority to talk withother people on behalf of their clients,
(05:18):
like call me, give me information, and I can't talk with anyone unless
the attorney or the client tells meto, So I do prefer to do
it in the attorney's office. Sowhen they called up and want to schedule
the exam, they tell me,just like maybe in a sensitu what the
(05:40):
case is about, whether it's amurder case, sex case, drug case,
or broadcase or whatever. What Iprefer to have is I like to
get as much information as I can, such as the rest warrants, incident
reports, statements, things like that, because with that it gives me an
(06:01):
ideal of what the game is aboutand who the players are, instead of
me going in blindly and talking withthe examinee and having to get that information
from them. So I have alot more knowledge when I get in and
know kind of the area that wewant to go toward. So if fraternity
(06:27):
calls me up and say, hey, here's the questions that I want to
ask about my client, Okay,I'll listen. You know, received the
questions or whatever, and I'll alwaystell them and says, okay, well,
we don't really know what the questionsthat are going to be exactly until
I actually talk with the client tosee what they understand about the questions,
(06:54):
because no, too, human brainsare the same, obviously, and whatever's
a good question for any I mean, whatever is a good question for you,
Sarah or Jim or Matt might notbe a good question for me about
that same issue, simply because notum brings the same. But we don't
understand the thing. For instance,if I worked with you, Sarah,
(07:15):
and I said, hey, Ineed to run some errands. Can you
do this for me while I'm going? And you say, yeah, I'll
take care of it. And Icome back and I say, Sarah,
why didn't you do what I askedyou to do? And you say I
did. I said, no,you didn't, girl, And he said,
WHOA wait a minute, Johnny,I thought you meant, so what
you thought I meant is not thesame thing I thought I was meant when
(07:36):
I was telling you. It's amatter of perceptions. So basically, we
had a failue to understand the communicationbetween us with the polograph with the questions.
We absolutely cannot have a failue tounderstand the communication between us as to
what those questions mean. Okay,Having said that the questions are the most
(07:57):
important part of any aleographic saying ifyou ask the wrong questions, you could
get the wrong results. Okay,And I mean, Johnny, you're so
right about that. And I guesspeople don't quite understand if you can give
some examples. I mean, Imean, you know, oftentimes you'll have
a pre interview, like for lawenforcement, you have a pre interview before
(08:20):
the test, and one of thethings that you don't want to ask is
you know, did everything you justwas everything you just told me true?
I mean, that's one that everybodywill fail, right, absolutely, And
that is so with the testing techniques. The most popular single issue testing technique
(08:41):
is called a zone of comparison orby zone. So if there's a zone
of comparison, there's basically three relevantquestions in three comparison or control questions.
But with a by zone, thereare only two relevant questions and three control
questions of comparison questions with the UHthe third question in the zone of comparisons.
(09:03):
A lot of times they will putdown just like Jim just said,
Uh, did you line any toany part of your statement that you gave
the law enforcement or something like that. Well, there could be something that
you just did not remember, andthen you just lie. What about Johnny,
what about lying by omission? Youcan do that too, So well,
(09:26):
no like it okay, and youI mean hold on im speaking of
the questions very important. I'm notarticulating my question really well, if that
the the law enforcement questions, likeif you did the pre interview, like
Jim said, but he was askedsomething and he didn't affirmatively lie about it,
(09:48):
but he just changed the topic anddidn't answer it, then that's only
the examiner. The examiner has topick up on that their experience to know,
Hey, let's get back to whatwe're doing. We focus on this
single issue. It's it's super hardto uh and not as accurate if you
(10:11):
test on more issues because the waythe polygraph works, especially the computerized potograph
with the algorithms, it scores thewhole examination one fatality. So you don't
get like, okay, you passedthis question at R five, but you
(10:31):
didn't, but you fail that areseven. Okay. That's not the way
it works because let's say and whenI say are, that means relevant questions,
and basically with the bizone, youask those two relevant questions, they
are bracketed by the control questions.So Let's say if you numbered you charge
(10:52):
one, two, three, four, or five six, that make nine,
and we have other numbers in frontof them, like C four,
C six, C nine means comparison. But so you bracket the relevant questions
by that. But both of therelevant questions are related to the same issue,
the basic question asked a different way. For example, I just got
(11:13):
through doing a test today on anarm robbery with the assault and the or
for who for like prosecution or defenseher defense? Okay, So so the
examinee was accused of helping steal thisyoung lady's car, but she also said
(11:41):
they pistol whipped her and hit herin the head. M well, and
they took her car, all right. So they called him, but he
said he never hit her with thepistol, and so when I went to
talk with him, I tried toexplain to him. So we wanted to
find out whether or not there wasany conspiracy to rob her because they took
(12:03):
a person and everything like that,and the main thing was whether or not
he actually hit her with the weapon. And so I couldn't just ask him
because he did admit that they didplan on stealing the car. It's just
fur the moment, thanks that,Hey, let's go take that car.
Okay. So with the question,I could not ask did you plan to
(12:24):
rob her? Because they did robthe car of me to steal the car,
so I would have to ask somethinglike that, did you hit in
the victim's name? Did you hitJane Doe with a pistol when you helped
steal her car? Mm hmm?Because if I just said did you plan
(12:46):
with someone to rob if the thingabout oh, well yeah we did,
we planned to steal the car,then he's gonna fail that test. Yeah,
So, Johnny, how about therelevant questions? Are the questions that
you're testing on, whether lying ornot? Now controlled or comparison questions.
Those are questions that you know thatthe examine is going to react to and
(13:11):
so don't you. So that's howcan you explain that what's the purpose of
the comparison or the control questions?Are absolutely so let me tell you about
all the questions. So basically there'snine questions in their space when you ask
them about twenty five SectionMS apart withthe computerized program because the computer needs between
(13:33):
twenty twenty five seconds to collect thedata after you ask the question and it
accumulates all of it for how manyother charts you run. So basically you
run a minimum of two charts forthe polygraph to the software to work to
score, and anywhere up to maybefour exams. So basically you ask and
(13:56):
you could ask anywhere from eighteen tothirty six questions. So like the first
question would be something like are younow sitting down? Okay? Second question
be like do you intend to answereach question truthfully? About robbing the TD
bank and lexing in South Carolina forinstance. So that second question is what
we call a sacrifice relevant question.You're there to take a test on whether
(14:22):
or not you rob the bank.All right, I'm asking you a question
about robbing the bank, but itdoesn't count as far as the score,
And it's the second question in theprocess, and it's we're sacrificing that.
So if you react to that,that's okay, it doesn't count because the
question is do you intend to answereach question truth I'm not asking you if
you did it or didn't do itokay, so we don't count that.
(14:45):
That's also kind of like what Jimwas mentioned earlier, did you lie to
any part of your statement? Thoseare kind of the same kind of thing.
So if you react to it,that's fine. But then the next
question be outside the issue question likeis there anything else you're afraid I'll ask
you a question about. So afterI explained everything and go of the issue,
and we come up with the question. I don't have the questions,
(15:07):
uh typed into the test template beforeI meet the client. Like I said,
I don't know what the question isgoing to be. Your house going
to be worried until I meet them. Oh wow, okay, Okay.
So you get the you get thethe documents, the case, the discovery,
(15:28):
and you review all that and yousort of have an idea of well,
you talk to the lawyer you knowwhat they're what they need, and
then and then you formulate the questionswhen the client gets there, because why
well I'll formulate because I'm will almostalways the examine, which is my client.
(15:52):
As far as a polygraph tells mestuff that they do not tell their
attorney, almost always. Okay,So a lot of times I'm doing fact
finding. I'm trying to minimize thesituation by trying to find something that can
help the attorney to minimize the youknow, the the accusation of the crime
(16:18):
or whatever. So what side gemand I have a client where you know,
we have we have those come toJesus moments with our clients, but
sometimes it takes a long time toget there, so we just send them
to you. There's another purpose fora polygraph. It's sort of gets to
the bottom of stuff for us.That's good to know. Well, sometimes
I have been referred to as thepriest. Yeah right, Actually this sheriff
(16:44):
and us to Georgia, Richmond County. He calls me the priest because I'm
trying to get people to uh thepast the polygraphs so they can get a
job there. And not very good, not very good. Love. Let's
to ask a question really about thehardware that you're working with. If I
may, you mentioned computers and algorithms. I'm just curious, you know,
(17:07):
how has the polygraph technology changed overyou know, you said you've been doing
this for forty years, where computerskind of always a part of this process.
Is this still that stereotypical image I'llput it up right now where it's
just like a guy sitting across fromsomebody with some straps and wires or am
I just like thinking about this likeit's the nineteen eighties and we are doing
(17:30):
all kinds of crazy shit now whereyou don't even need wires, you know
what I mean? Like, what'swhat are we dealing with here? Why
is there an algorithm? Hey?I love the eighties. Don't go right
on the eighties? Eighties? Okay, yeah, but I'll answer the question.
But let me go back to thequestion Jim was asking about the relevant
questions. Okay, So the controlquestions of comparison questions are what we call
(17:56):
probable lies, which means there's twothings in life everyone has done. Everyone
has lied, and everyone has stolen. Okay, And if someone tells me
they've never stolen anything, they justdid the other. They just lied.
Whether or not it's an ink pinfrom an office or or anything that you
didn't ask permission for, it isstill stealing, whether it's candy or whatever
(18:17):
else as a child. All right, So they're probable lies. The control
questions are related to or similar innature to the actual issue question. For
example, if it was a fout, my control question would be before you
were whatever age I put in there, do you remember That's the key question.
(18:38):
Do you remember ever stealing anything?Serious that you haven't been called for.
That would be the questions that thenthe next question would be like before
you were twenty five, do youremember ever lying to anyone in authority about
something serious? And then the lastcontrol question pretty much would be before you
(19:00):
twenty five, do you remember evercommitting a serious crime that you haven't been
called for? Okay, So,if I was Johnny, if I was
a lawyer, whos committed a crime? And that's why I hate when they
say criminal lawyers, like, no, criminal defense lawyers, and you're you're
taking my polygraph, and I'm like, I can get really, I want
(19:23):
to parse down. You know,I'd be like, I don't understand what
you mean by authority. I don'tunderstand what you mean by I mean.
Do you start reformulating the questions onthe spot. No, I'll break it
down. I can get simple withit, like have you ever lied to
your parents about slipping out their authority? Have you ever lied to a teacher
or a professor? Okay, okay, someone, So you mentioned there are
(19:48):
nine questions. How long does theexam take? All? Right? The
examination? Well, each chart,So if you take the nine question,
you do it twenty twenty five seconds. Each chart takes four minutes, four
and a half minutes or something likethat. And so with the computer rised
potograph, when we pull up thechart there it has a little red button
(20:17):
obviously to start recording record button,and then there's a time bar on the
software at the bottom. It startsgoing across and it shows you how much
time it is, and when itgets all the way across, it resorts
back to the beginning for the nextquestion. Okay, so you take those
nine questions in twenty five or soseconds or whatever, about four minutes.
(20:42):
All right, After you get throughrecording the first chart, you hit the
little red button to stop recording.And when you do that with a commuter
rized potograph, a little window comesup and says that was a big window,
but anyway, a little window comesup and says do you wish to
appin a another chart, which meansdo you wish to add another chart?
(21:03):
And you just have two words there, yes and no. You can't exit
the program unless you say one ofthose two. All right, if it's
the first chart and you exit theprogram, it's going to tell you that
it did not have enough data toscore the chart. So we never say
no after the first one unless theyomit something or want to stop and tell
you something. But so then wehit the record button again, we do
(21:27):
the same thing again. Yep,that's all we need for two charts.
Then we say no at the end. And when we say no after we
recorded enough charts, automatically it scoresthe chart before I can go anywhere else
and it lets me know, okay. And so so, Johnny, you're
(21:48):
talking about probable lives and then therelevant questions, and so that the algorithms
compare the reaction to the probable livedquestions to the relevant questions, right,
yes, absolutely, and that's whythey're similar in nature. Now, another
thing that really is you won't answerMatt's question, which is like a person
walks in the room, like whatwhat? What's the technology? Is still
(22:11):
what I'm curious about, especially whenyou when you are talking about how the
system allows you to like go yesversus no. Like half the time I
do control P to print and mycomputer says there's no printer, even though
there's a printer right next to mycomputer. I just how how long have
we been putting all this in thehands of the computerized technology? Probably about
(22:36):
probably about thirty five years for ayear and it's still be kind of same
setup that that you see in themovies like Meet the Falcons or something.
That's sure definitely not okay. Ihave never polographed anyone in the bathroom or
(22:57):
anything like that. So basically thepolygraph actually I think started. I always
tell people this, whether it's trueor not, but I do know that
it probably started in eighteen ninety fiveby a guy by the name of Sieves
(23:17):
of Lombresso, and I think itwas called the hydro spigmagraph. It dealt
with water and things like that.And then there's been new technology and new
inventions like Galbini came up with theGSR, the Gavanic skin response, Bevenussi
came up with the new mocubes,things like that. But I always tell
people like, back in the Cabandays, they had polygraph examers. Did
(23:38):
you know that? Oh yeah,they had witch doctors. So if there
was like somebody that was a theftin the tribe, they would get their
suspects and they would have them tellthem that they had to walk through this
tunnel without lights obviously, and itwas real narrow and there was a donkey
(23:59):
in the middle of the time thatthe only way you could get by was
pull the donkey's tail for him.Let you buy okay, and if you
were the one that stole the stuff, he's gonna know it and he's gonna
kick you to death because you can'tsee it. Well. Lo and behold,
what they did was put charcoal onthe donkey's tail, and you checked
(24:21):
your hands when you came out theother side, get and pulled the tail.
That's the potograph we need these days. But anyway, with the with
the algorithms, okay, we'll goback to the when the potographs started coming
out with the pen and paper,the charts and stuff like that. Without
(24:47):
a doubt, you can manipulate thosecharts because you can manually turn the little
dial for the sensitivity to make itmore sensitive to a reaction, okay,
to whatever question you wanted. AndI actually had a case for a court
(25:07):
martial care case of something like atthe Citadel where someone did take an exam
and the examiner did do that,and I noticed it right away that's what
he did, which you could dothat. But with those with the old
polygraphs with depending paper, basically wewere taught that there were twenty two criteria
that the examiner would use to determineif someone was lying or tell them the
(25:30):
truth by looking at the paper chart, seeing the changes, the degree of
changes, and things like that.Supposedly, with the computerized polygraph, there's
over two hundred pack here because you'redealing with the computer monitors broken down into
thousands of pixels, and the softwarecan tell the difference between one and two
pixels, where we couldn't tell thedifference between one and one hundred without zoom
(25:52):
any in. So it's a lotmore scientific enough. So when I participated
in gathering data for Johns Hopkins University, I was working at SLED and the
three guys underneath my supervision we alsowe actually conducted real criminal cases and sent
(26:12):
back on floppy disc to the scientistsup there, and they took those those
charts. Uh, and they youknow, did what they did as you
know scientists, and developed algorithms thatactually score the chart. Now, so
we I think, yeah, goahead, so we match question. You
(26:33):
know what, what what are youmeasuring the polyes? What are the different
things are being grapped? Yeah,okay, so we've been doing to hear
this we've been down to hear this. It's podcast. We gotta we gotta
build something. Are you sure?I'm pretty about Okay? So i'most I
(26:57):
might answer Jim's question just as ifI was examining someone. Okay, And
I'm gonna I'm gonna use you,Sarah, because you were easy to use
like this. Okay, how sobecause you have like a sense of humor
(27:18):
from Okay, all right, soI'm gonna use Sarah. Okay, Sarah,
I'm gonna pretend, just like yousaid, you're a examinear a client,
you get ready to take the testfrom me, and I'm a fucking
liar. You're to bust my ass. Okay. So what I'm gonna do
is like, okay, uh,I'm going to I'm I'm going to go
(27:44):
into detail with you about how apolygraph actually works. Okay. Would it
surprised you if I told you probablyhigh of all polygraphic examiners don't even know
how a polygraph works? With thatsurprise you, No, wouldn't, because
I've had two and I obviously itwasn't really explained properly to me. Well
(28:07):
do you know how I know that? Yeah? You know how I know
that how because I'm a smart fellow. Do you know how I know I'm
a smart phone because you're cidified.I have a smartphone. Okay, With
a kick of a button, Icould take a picture of you and send
it my two daughters in northern California. Just like that, I can make
(28:30):
magic happen. See how good Iam? And I'm a go make cook
too. I can go to Walmartand buy some pre cooked Jimmy Dean turkey
sausage, put it on paper plate, put in the microwave. He had
one boom, It's done? Ormake time? No? Everything in life,
the only thing we're concerned with iscan you learn how to do it?
Are you a Carmeen Cannon, MM. Sarah or car Kennon?
(28:52):
No? No, of course not. Oh I'm sorry no, no.
The first thing about it, okay, I'm sorry. So you don't know
how to drive them? Right?No? I know to drive? Well
wait a minute, you know howto drive a car, but you don't
know how it works. Everything's thatway. When you go to school you
take math, the only thing youconcerned with is can you learn how to
do the problems? When you geta job, the only thing on know
(29:15):
is can you do the job right? Can you learn how to do the
job. It's the same thing whenyou go to polygraph school. Typically,
when you go to a polygraphs school, the people that are teaching you aren't
even polygraphic examiners themselves. There arepeople with a lesson plan. That sounds
weird, but it's not. Everythingis that way. Do you think a
fifth grade science teacher is a scientist. No, No, they're probably a
(29:38):
pe coach that got stuck with abunch of braddy fifth graders. The point
is when you get when you getthrough with the polygraph course, you will
know how to give the test.And that's all you have to know how
to do because it's computerized, right, so you're just operating, You're just
essentially they're just going through the motion, going through the motion. And that's
(30:02):
also where the questions come yet beingthe most important because basically no one can
beat a polygraph. Maybe steals,c I A, spiles things like that.
Uh, And the main reason isbecause you can't beat yourself. Okay,
so when I explaining this to you, you're gonna know what I'm talking
about, all right, So whatdoes a polygraph record if you google it,
(30:25):
it's gonna say blood pressure. Okay, and actually just like that right
there, blood pressure, come right, go around your ar. Okay,
you're gonna say blood pressure, heartrate, changes, perspiration, a nervousness,
(30:48):
anxiety, all those things like that, breathing. Okay, pretty much
all those things are lies. Okay. But but but if you get a
pro lithic liar who believes his orher own lies, like just everything is
a lie, Like, does thatstill affect those things? Yeah, we'll
(31:11):
talk about save that question to afterI get through explain this and then we'll
answer that one. So anyway,pretty much all those things lie. I
have never ever recorded anyone's blood pressurebecause I need a stethoscope with a manual
cuff. I don't have a stetscope, and there's nothing digital build in like
(31:33):
they have now. Okay, sowe do not record blood pressure. Plus,
if I had to record someone's bloodpressure every time I asked a question,
possibly I would have to record theblood pressure maximum thirty six times.
We'd be in there all night.We don't record blood pressure. When you
put the cuff on the arm,you actually only inflate it to about seventy
(31:55):
five to record your blood pressure.You need to pump it up to about
one hundred and eighty to two hundredsand let the air start coming out.
So we do not record blood persons. Another thing, we do not record
changes in your heart rate. Itdoes not tell me what your heart rate
is. The only way I'm gonnaknow what your heart rate is is for
me to manually count every stroke cardiacstroke in sixty seconds. Okay, but
(32:22):
there's no point in it because whateveryour heart rate is, once we start
to test it, it does notchange whether you lie tell the truth.
This is easy to explain. Itdoesn't change because heart rate is measured by
beats per minute, which is sixtyseconds. These questions to ask every twenty
twenty five seconds, which basically meansthat I could ask you three questions in
(32:45):
just a little bit over a minute. Nobody's heart speeds up for twenty seconds,
settles back down for twenty speeds upfor it doesn't work that way.
When your heart rate increases, it'snormally calls by one or two things,
predominantly either exercise or anxiety. Right, So either one that causes your heart
rate to increase for it to settleback down to normal, it takes minutes
(33:07):
of deep, slow, relaxed breathing. We don't have minutes. We have
twenty to twenty five sectors. Sobasically, what we found out with this
cardio cuff, it's a cardio cuffthat's recording your cardio pattern all the way
across. I'll see your size,stalk stroke, your dive stalk stroke,
your amplitude of your heart beat,the longitude, the baseline changes, top
(33:30):
line changes, exorcisties, all kindsof a fIF anything like that. I'll
see those, okay. But basicallywhat we found out is that the scientist
said that if the person produces ablood volume increase, in other words,
that if your heart pumps out moreblood during any twenty twenty five seconds,
it's one hundred percent that you justlie. Okay, So my question is
(33:53):
to the scientist was how can yourheart pump out more blood without beating faster?
They explained it it actually squeezes hard, kind of like if you had
a water bottle like this you had. What if you have a heart condition
that does that, and it's completelyunrelated to line you do your well,
(34:14):
your medical conditions don't like come factorin no, So we're looking for timely
increases, Okay, And everything wedo is that's why we asked the uh
the questions on multiple charts. We'retrying to see if we get the same
reactions on each location. And it'salways nine questions. No, it could
(34:39):
be ten. I mean some otherpeople do other techniques like sky or something
like that with a suspect and no, did you, uh? Do you
suspect? Do you know? Diddo you? Things like that, you
can do a testing technique we calleda modified relevant question, and those are
questions that you're basically asking evidence connectingquestions like did you rob the TD bank?
(35:01):
Do you know where any of themoney is from the TD bank?
Do you know where the gun is? Things like that. So, but
the more you ask, the lesschance you have of getting a good test.
Let's chance you have them what ofgetting a good test? So,
Johnny, you're talking about heart rate, is you know all these like blood
(35:22):
pressure cuff? I mean that's justall for show. I mean so no,
No, there is actually a reallygood purpose part because like with your
heartbeat, you have the die productnow twists the valve that's letting blood out
and then closing that to keep bloodfrom coming back. So that actually can
(35:42):
move too under tracings. So wedo use that. We're looking for that.
But almost everybody I polographic, evenif they're on blood pressure medicine,
the heart rate's going to be alittle bit higher or even vastly in higher
then it would be normally when theycome in. Depending on that also depends
on the case, so you know, their anxiety, fear, or whatever
(36:05):
else, so it could be ofit. But yeah, we do use
that all right. Other things thatwe use now we have we have the
Gavernant skin response with the two littleelectrodes because on your corner finger and your
ring finger. And they say,what they're trying to tell you is that
we measure sweat perspiration with that.I'm gonna tell you, if I had
(36:30):
to measure people's sweat, that wouldbe the nastiest job in the world.
And I don't think, Sarah,you won't be putting anything on you that
I just came from prison measuring someof those people's sweat. No. And
also think about this, I've neverheard of a sweat number two yet.
I mean, it sounds like acool thing to measure sweat. I just
(36:51):
have no desire to invent that ortry to do that. So basically what
we do use the gathernant skin response, and that component is used for other
things too, is used for mentalhealth testing too. So basically with that
we're trying to measure any kind ofpsychological changes your brain sends down your arm,
(37:13):
through your sweat, lands on yourfingertips to the sensory neurance in each
fingertip. We have over three thousandsensor neuron in each fingertip that stretches about
one tenth of the intra cost totip of our fingertips. Our fingertips and
our lips have the most sensoryneurance ofany part of our body. So in
our fingertips, yes, ma'am,have the most sensor renurance of any part
(37:37):
of our body. And that's whatwe're using with those electrodes. Okay,
And so when we get when wesee that there's a psychological change, and
that could be caused by obviously picturescoming in your mind about committing the offense
that you're accused of, and we'llget into that a little bit too.
So anyway, that's what we dowith the Galverlent skin response. Okay,
(38:01):
With the two tubes, uh,they're called neumotubes. There's two of these,
okay, right, all right,So with those they're called pneumatic,
which means air. One goes aroundthe top of your chest and one goes
around you out of it. Okay. And with this right here is it's
(38:24):
called a motion sensor pad. Theycommonly refer to as a countermeasure pad.
You sit on that, all right. So with these components, I'm going
to record any kind of movement,breathing, talking, sneeze and hiccups,
cough and laugh and sign you ownand giggling, nodding your hands, shrugging
your souls, flexing your muscles,wiggling your toes, heightening your butt muscles,
(38:47):
anything you do that goes through yourspine. Okay, guess what everything
you do? Pretty much everything youdo goes through your spine. Right,
Your spine is your main supervisor ofyour body as far as sending and received
messages, right, okay. Imean, like if you have a stroke,
one side of the body's paralyzed.You can't move, so people get
(39:07):
hit on the football field knocked out. First thing to matters check is fingertip
movement, toe movement, feelings,things like that. M hm. Okay,
So I have a question, Sarah. If your spine is your main
supervisor of your body as far assending and receiving messages, where does the
spine get its orders from? Wheredoes what does spine get its orders from?
(39:30):
My brain? Absolutely? See thisis another weird thing. Have you
ever thought about yourself as being thebrain? Sarah? You are the brain,
Sarah, you are the brain.You are the big boss, the
head honcho, the mastermind. Allright, correct me if I'm wrong.
But you can't do or be anythingin life. But except whatever you the
(39:52):
brain wants you to let you ormake you am I right, Well I
wish, I wish, but okay, yeah, yeah, but we're all
the brain though, we're all thebrain, all right, Okay, I
can except we don't, but wedon't control the brain. M hm,
Sarah. Wave your hand? Wow, that was weird? Was that weird?
(40:19):
Do you? Sarah? Was thatweird? Yeah? Because you're having
me do weird ship. I don'teven I don't even have the straps on
and stuff. Shit. No,I saw that hand. I looked straight
at that hand on the screen hereand told you you to wave your hand,
and you did. Does that handhave ears? No? Brain telling
(40:42):
the hand to do it exactly.But I wouldn't talk to you talk to
the hand because the ears are notlistening, remember right, So what just
happened was your brain just sent electricaland chemical messages through and this is how
the polygraph works. M h.Your brain just sent electrical and chemical messages
through over one hundred billion neurons inyour head. One hundred billion. That's
(41:07):
a lot. As a matter offact, if you had to count to
a billion, one at a timeeach second, it would take you three
thousand, one hundred years impossible todo. Yet, not only did you
send the messages through those hundred billionneurins, you send them across bridges,
across the snapsis and you have overone hundred trillion of those. You send
(41:28):
them down to your spine, yourspinal card, and back throughout your body
to tell your hand away. Hey, just like that, actually, way
fasteran Just like that. You justsent those messages at approximate two hundred and
seventy miles per hour. Wow,that's fine. Have you ever measured two
hundred and seventy miles per hour?No, I'm gonna let you do it
(41:50):
now, I'm gonna ask you somereal easy questions, real fast, and
see how fast your brain works.These are easy. But don't worry,
Jim. And that's gonna do thesame thing, even though I'm not telling
them they do it. They're gonnado. Right. What is two plus
two four? What's your mother's firstname? Say? What colored vehicle?
Did you actually dead? It's thatwas her first name? Though? Yeah?
(42:15):
What what vehic? What color vehicle? Did you come to work today?
In? Great? Right? Allright? So, Sarah, those
three verbal responses that you just gaveme, there are two major problems with
them. Why Because one, theyweren't two hundred and seventy miles per hour.
(42:37):
I'm going to explain that to you. But the biggest problem is those
weren't even the answers to the questionsthat I just asked you. Well,
I mean, I was going tosay none of your business, but that's
but you didn't. You didn't.But so what now? So Sarah,
you thought those were the answers tothe questions? Right? M hm?
(42:59):
No, let me explain it.Here's what just happened. Your brain analyzed
my question basically before I was eventhrough, a picture of the number four
came in your brain. A pictureof your mother's first name came in your
brain, maybe her face. Apicture of whatever type of vehicle you came
to work in to call it gray, and even probably where you parked it
(43:21):
came in your brain. Right,those pictures, those pictures that came in
your brain, those were the answersto the question. Now, what you
did with those answers without even thinking? You sent message through those hundred billionears
across those hundred trollion bridges down toyour spine, your spine, car back,
up your neck, your throat,your vote card, your vocal bout
you learned she dove on your lips, in your tongue for you to make
a sound. The sounds that youmade were actually the result of having the
(43:45):
pictures in your brain. If you'venot got any pictures in your brain,
you wouldn't even know what kind ofsound to make, right, So if
I lied about my car, likelet's say my car is red or something,
those that would make up those thingsright now. Actually, actually,
if a picture of gray came inyour car and you tried to change it
(44:07):
to red, that's called disassociation,and that's something that some people try to
use as a countermeasure to beat thepolygraph. But actually what you're doing,
you're placing more emphasis on your carbecause you're taking the gray and changing it
to red. And people try todo that. Actually you've called them the
(44:28):
bigger reactions. So basically, whyare people I mean not what people,
but what you know, polygraphs areconsidered unreliable and in admissible. I mean,
I know that. Jim's probably ofall the attorneys I've known from coast
to coast, Jim is probably theone that like actually ends up doing them
(44:51):
every so often for some reason.But for us, it's like, we
don't talk about it. You know, law enforcement likes from here it's a
shortcut. I mean, that's no, we don't. We just don't.
I mean I've had two, uhin my entire career. Both been in
the context of rape cases. Theyhave not been a standalone they have been
(45:13):
just an added sort of layer towhat I was presenting. And it's because
the DA was agreeable to my examinerwho passed away, but he was,
you know, pretty renowned here,Jack DeMarco, and you know, and
it just does that's not even thenorm. So you know, why is
(45:37):
it is there anywhere that's admissible,New Mexico, New Mexico, Okay.
And why do you think you dothis for a living? So obviously it's
got value. So why, inyour opinion, are people reluctan or you
know, why is the system soanti polygraphs? It's unreliable? Probably by
(45:57):
word of mouth of people say,oh, I took a pall and just
said I lied and I didn't so, or I know this person took a
test and he beat the polygraph becausehe did do what they said he did,
but the examiner said he didn't.But here's the thing about it.
Why do law enforcement use it somuch? If it's not any good?
Why does the federal government use it? Why does CIA use the FBI?
(46:21):
Why did they use it if it'snot any good? Well, i'll tell
you, Johnny. They use itto try to, you know, get
a statement of confession out of somebody. Honestly. You know, when I
was at the US Tourney's office,we had a bank robbery case and it
was accessory after the fact, andand you know, they had we had
this defendant in there and she saidthat she was not aware of the guy
(46:44):
robbed a bank and and so shesits down for a polygraph and and the
polygraph examiner says, you flunked thetest. I don't know if she did
or didn't flunk the test, butthen she changed her story and said,
yeah, I did know, youknow, et cetera. Then she goes
back and tell the lawyer said,you know, I told the guy that
I knew because he said they weregoing to take my kids away from him.
But I didn't really know. Imean, I mean, it's so
(47:06):
easy to get someone to change theirstory when you in the face of some
some some something you know. Ijust absolutely it's basically what that is is
a false confession. And it's justlike you said, it's it's you know,
they're trying to intimidate you. Ididn't allow that when I was in
charge of the polograph for a sledwith my examiners, and also I tried
(47:30):
to steer them away from doing amulti issue question like the modified general question
technique. I just wanted something specific, right right, So you know my
biggest there are a lot of times, I mean, what they kicked the
lawyer out. So I have aclient and you know it's going to sit
(47:50):
for a polygraph, Well that's theonly time that law enforcement can interview my
client without me present. And Idon't like that, but you know that's
just how they your client can refuse. Yeah. But also, Jim,
I mean I know when we werewhen I was doing it for law enforcement.
If the attorney says, hey,I want you, I want to
see the questions that you're going toask, there should be no there should
(48:15):
be no problem, And then youcould say, Okay, after the test,
I don't want you talking with him. I don't want you answering him
any questions. Then I couldn't aslaw enforcement because you'd already told me.
Well, Jim, are you talkingabout a pre arranged situation where you've agreed
to your client doing polygraph for it? Well, so, I mean,
(48:36):
here are a lot of times inplea agreements you know you've got to pass
a polygraph to the satisfaction of thefederal government. I mean, right,
Alex Murdoch, Every federal pla agreementis like that. And and Johnny,
I mean what you said. Imean they changed the damn play agreements in
South Carolina because of what I usedto do. I would say, hey,
(48:57):
client, no matter what he says, she says, you did you
failed, don't say a word tohim, come out and talk to me,
and then you know, we justwalk off. But now under the
federal agreements, and you know theyinclude passing it to the satisfaction, is
that you have to you know,you can't just refuse to answer the post
polygraph questions. I mean that's thewhole process, you know. And and
(49:22):
the only time they ever put yourclient on them polygraph is when they think
your client is lying because he's notsaying what what they want to need to
be the case. Now, ifyou have a client going in and lying
on another person to make the government'scase against the other person, they never
put him on the polygraph. Yeah, because they don't want to discredit.
(49:43):
They don't want to. They don'twant to like let it be perceived that
they don't believe their witness or whatever. Johnny, how much do you charge?
Well, what it's depends on thecase. How much you charge to
polygraph me to fly out there?No, Well, if you're talking about
(50:09):
I'm not talking about flying out hereand me helping you in Hollywood and stuff
like that, that's great. Okay. I don't charge as much as other
people because I do so much andI don't really need to and don't care
about it. I charge basically fivehundred and five fifty for a polygraph exam
here in Colombia. I have todrive a couple of hours. Let's say
(50:32):
right then you add to your travelat your travel time. But if Jim
says to you, hey, youknow you need to polygraph Sarah, she's
my client, but she's got topass. She has to be no way
that's up. You know, you, Sarah would be the most important person
(50:57):
as far as coming up with helpingme come up with the question. And
it's your test. It's going toshow whatever you show. Okay. I've
been offered a lot of money topass some people. I don't care about
it. I mean, that's allit takes is one situation like that and
your career is going forever. Youwouldn't even do it for Jim, Jim
(51:21):
Griffin, forget it. Let meask you this because I had this come
up once. I had a bunchof Russians from the state of Georgia who
were on a ship and came intoCharleston Harbor, and they thought that they
were illegally dumping offshore. So theyhad the big investigation, and we had
and they wanted to do a polygraphon a couple of them that I was
(51:45):
representing. And and and because theysent a State Department translator down, you
know, we had our own translatorand it was a question about whether translation
was accurate, so our translator wasallowed to sit in the pre interview.
And and that guy reported after thefact that the polygraph examiner gets in my
(52:06):
client's face like two inches away,accusatory, like you know, I know
you're lying, I know you're lying. And then and then puts him on
a test to see if he reacts. I mean, absolutely not. You
can't do that. But you're right. But you know how when the lawyer's
kicked out of the room and noone's in there, I mean, I
get that story all the time,So you wouldn't believe that guy was playing
(52:28):
games with me. He did this, that and the other. And that
is I mean, isn't that away to manipulate the results when the examiner
now more than likely, more thanlikely you're examining your examinee, your client
is going to fail that test.Okay, we you do not polygraph anyone
immediately after they have been interrogated.Or anything like that, you did not
(52:52):
do it, okay, well youdon't. And that's another reason we review
all the questions the examinees before westart because we want to make sure how
they answer the questions and things likethat, so we review those. We
do not ask surprise questions okay,because you will react to that. So
(53:15):
basically what happens is every every day, our mind takes millions and millions of
pictures and videos of things we see, say, do touchstakes here, peel
okay, but we forget them.But if I ask you a question,
if you know it, if youremember doing it, or you or you
know it, you cannot stop apicture from coming in your mind. Ka.
(53:37):
For instance, three plus three sixcame in both yours and Matt's mind.
Okay, Red apple, yellow banana, zebra, pink elephant, All
those pictures come in your mind.So basically, what I'm trying to do
with the question, I'm trying tosee if you're lying about remembering doing something,
not if you've done it, okay, I mean, not if you
(54:00):
line and telling truth. I'm tryingto see if you lyne about remembering doing
it. And like I say,we forget everything we do but if you
do remember it, a picture ofvideo comes in your mind, and if
a picture of video comes in yourmind, they're going to be details,
all right, depending on what thatpicture of video means to you, your
well being state, to you,whatever else determines where your brain sends messages
(54:23):
to And you can't stop because youdon't even notice in it. So Johnny
one of them. We're about towrap it up here. But every federal
polygraph I've my clients have had todo in the last you know, every
they pretend like they have a qualitycontrol and they have a second person review
(54:45):
everything. And I mean sometimes likeI did one in Raleigh a few years
back, and the quality of controlguy was in South America somewhere. I
mean, if it's all computer algorithms, is I mean, is that just
bullshit? So I went I visittheir quality control up in DC whenever we
(55:05):
started doing that at SLED. WhenI was there, could wrote the policy
for polygraph procedures and everything like that, and so then I was put in
charge, well not put in charge, it was an additive of a responsibility
which I thought was already doing.I had to review every polographic exam that
was conducted by my examiners and signoff on it that I reviewed. Okay,
(55:27):
but those like that were the federalgovernment for what I understand, unless
they change. If you had someonedo it and Raleigh or wherever else and
they were to send their exams somewhereelse, it's gonna be a couple of
weeks before they come back to confirmit. I know the GBI does that
in Georgia. I know a coupleof their examiners. When they do an
exam, they have to send itoften for the final verdict, so to
(55:52):
speak. Which why if you're anygood, it's a computerized like you said,
so it's what are they doing?What I mean that? Okay,
I can understand that back in theday when it was paper and dark now,
but no, just computers. Ihave no idea how those algorithms work.
(56:15):
I'm not that smart, and neitherneither as law enforcement like that.
So I mean, I don't understandthat, and I think mean, I
mean, yeah, the mischief,the mischief that takes place is in the
room before they plug the guy upto the machine. And my opinion,
no, no, yeah, soI can't hear you guys. You're there,
(56:42):
Johnny we're here. We're here,Yeah, just like a moment of
I don't think you got that.Well. I wanted to ask one more
question, but I didn't. Also, I know we're already running a little
long here. And it's actually moreof a personal question for Johnny. You
spent your entire life, you know, reading people on a lie detector,
and I just wonder does that spillinto your personal life at all? Do
(57:06):
you find yourself being a sort ofhuman lie detector when you interact with people
in your daily life out a doubt? So then the larger question, this
is like a philosophical question, butdo you feel like people are generally very
truthful or do you get is yourbullshit meter going off all the time.
Well, that's a hard question toanswer because it depends on when you say
(57:31):
people are generally truthful or lyned.It depends on what you asking them and
stuff like that. To say,I tell everyone that I'm pathy. I
can read minds, Like Matt,right now, I'm reading your mind.
You want me to tell you whatyou're think? Yeah, that I'm full
of shit. I was actually justthinking about the zebra and the pink elephant.
(57:55):
I'm still cycling through all these triggerwords, but keep going. But
so a lot of times I donot even need to polygraph at all to
tell a lot of times I knowthat they're going to admit to me before
I ever even get to the questions. It happens a lot of times.
(58:16):
Okay, I need you here inl A. Yeah, Johnny, he's
a great party. Guess you'll bringhis polygraph everyone. I need you Okay,
I'm ready after the holidays. Sowhen are you coming out? You
have do you have a family familyhere right in San San Francisco, Santa
(58:38):
Rosa, sabat But I'm coming out. Yeah, I'm coming back in March.
Just let there for thanks. Comingback in March. But I think
we're going down to San Diego orsomewhere for the Lego factory or whatever.
Yeah, leg there you go.So if Jim has our mugs, I
(59:02):
don't know how many has left.There's a couple of people that are on
the list for them. Johnny getsa mug. If not, we're going
to order more. It's like,yeah, sorry, you have to look
at our mugs. On the mugI'll definitely earn a mug. And speaking
of watching the show, Hey,you can check us out on YouTube,
(59:24):
YouTube dot com slash at the presumption. If you're not already subscribed, please
do you. We're on all thepodcast platforms. Oh, I wasn't talking
to you, Johnny. I wastalking to our listeners. But hey,
if you want to subscribe, I'ma listener now, all right? Love
it? And uh yeah, Idon't know jim say or anything else you
(59:44):
guys want to say before we wrapit all up. We really appreciate you
coming on, Johnny entertaining no questionabout it, I mean, really amazing.
I really appreciate you. And untilnext week, Jimmy, we
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