January 30, 2024 • 30 mins
Jim and Sara continue their conversation with justice warrior, Savannah Chrisley. This week, the conversation is focused on the deplorable prison conditions that are impacting prisoners and families all across the nation, including Savannah’s father, Todd. They challenge prison policies that muzzle inmates and violate the 1st amendment. They also discuss the many double standards that are in place when it comes to defending a person accused of a crime, and how to fight against the perceived notion of ‘white privilege’. In closing, Sara asks Savannah about the role of faith in her new reality, the meaning of ‘pro-life’, and her thoughts on a possible pardon from former President Trump, should he get re-elected.
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Music – Caleb Fletcher
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Music – Caleb Fletcher
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:22):
Welcome back to the Presumption. I'mSarah A sorry, and I'm here with
my partner in crime, Jim Griffin. A Jim, Hey, Sarah,
and Matt Fondelier and we're with ourvery special guest, Savannah Chrisley. Hi,
Savannah, thank you so much.Love talking to me all. So
this is good. So we wantto focus this conversation. You know,
(00:46):
I'm about the positive, the goodvibes, the solution, you know,
because God knows, our jobs arelike reality TV, but a dark one.
And so what really sort of drewmy interest to you was the work
that you're doing, just being sovocal about the conditions in prison that your
dat is facing, advocating for criminaljustice. I also want to touch on
(01:11):
some of the politics in your parents'case. Uh. You know, one
of the things that we really don'tcare about on this platform is politics.
We I can tell you, Jimand I don't. I think Matt too.
We're not we're not politically aligned withyou, okay, but we don't
know. I'm an anarchist, I'mnot aligned with anybody, and we really
(01:34):
you know, I mean Jim moreso than me because of where he's located.
But I've got a number of clientswho, uh, you know,
have told me, hey, Idon't vote for the same guy you do,
but I like your you know,advocacy whatever. So it's not about
politics, but there are some thingsthat you feel very strongly about. And
of course this is election year,so I kind of want to take that
(01:55):
conversation there a little bit as well. So your father is housed in the
federal Camp Pensacola. It's a minimumsecurity camp for white collar funders. And
we say prison is not a park. So when people start complaining, you
know, to some extent, obviouslymake sure our clients are okay, but
we're like, it's not a park. I mean, you're in prison,
you know. And however, there'ssome really horrible things about where your dad
(02:19):
is. And I absolutely believe hiscomplaints because I found twelve motions under the
Cares Act during COVID and I gotfive people out because of those conditions.
And you and I were having thisconversation on over the weekend where you know
you're you're doing it's like similar tohow I was doing it. They couldn't
(02:40):
figure out how I was getting theinformation that I was getting, you know,
the inside information and you know,speaking of receipts and stats that you
keep so well, you have somestuff that you're sitting on as well about
that prison. So tell us aboutthe conditions at Pensacola and what sort of
(03:00):
what you're doing to expose those andwhat your father's done. Yeah, So
I've gone on Fox News Nation,I've been very vocal about the conditions.
And by no means do I thinkthis should be a four seasons you're in
prison, but you should also havethe basic necessities clean drinking water, food,
(03:21):
you know, air conditioning, justthe bare minimum, and they don't
have that. It was fifteen degreesthis past week there and they had no
heat. These men were literally freezingand they did nothing about it. The
worden doesn't care. Also, youlook at it, and I've become very
(03:45):
vocal about it because at the endof the day, we are treating illegal
immigrants that come into our country betterthan we're treating our own people that are
in our prisons. It is whatit is. It costs about three hundred
and fifty dollars a day to housean illegal immigrant. It cost about one
hundred hundred and fifty dollars a dayto house a federal inmate. So first
off, we're already going wrong there, and too there's black mold. It's
(04:10):
best as lead based paint. They'reconsuming food. They're chicken from back in
twenty nineteen, twenty nineteen. Butyet they're given funding every year to order
food. So where is that fundinggoing if you're feeding them food from twenty
nineteen. And that's where I thinkit's going to hit Congress is when you
start pulling out Let's forget about themen. Let's forget about the men and
(04:31):
women. Let's look at the dollarsand you look at the amount of waste
that has occurred and where this money'sgoing, because I can tell you where
some of it's going. In Pensacola, it's going in the warden's pockets.
It's going they're stealing fem equipment,they're stealing food from the commissary. They're
stealing tide pods to where the mendon't get their laundry done for a week
(04:56):
because the CEOs walk out with allthe tide pods. It's things like this
are occurring and there's no one tohold them accountable. So yeah, go
ahead, Jim, Yes, Savannah, I know that your Dad's been vocal
about the conditions there and has beentrying to you know, publicize it and
did any wanted to have interviews withthe you know, the media to shine
(05:19):
the spotlight on it, and hewas denying those requests. But but ultimately
he was able to give an interviewwith Brian Innton of New News Nation as
a friend of ours. How didhow did Brian arrange that? Was?
That was that it was through itwas it was through the lawyers. It
was through legal call and they youknow, they submitted their request. They
(05:44):
went through the proper channels in orderto be able to sit down and do
an interview with him. But ofcourse it was denied. They said that
it would cause a serious risk tothe facility to have Dad do an interview
and that it's it's complete and soit's so he called his lawyer, and
(06:05):
his lawyer put Brian on a threeway and there no, Brian did not
go there. He the lawyer wasasking questions and Brian was asking questions.
I really don't know in its entiretyhow exactly it went down. I just
know that there has been a lotof retaliation since then. But it's also
(06:29):
something my Dad's like, you knowwhat, I'm willing to put up with
it if it means that it's goingto cause lasting change. And because of
that interview, you've had the deputydirector the BOP show up at the facility.
You have had they're doing extensive youknow, walkthroughs and looking at everything.
Dad was pulled aside by people.I mean, people are listening now.
(06:53):
But the issue is is the BOPgives these prisons the heads up of
when they're coming. So you're givingthem a heads up so they can turn
around and hide stuff. Just likewhen they found out the BOP was coming,
they had all these men take allthe expired food, put it in
a tractor trailer truck, and thenwhen the BOP left, they brought all
the food back into the cafeteria.So Jim, Jim's client, you know,
(07:17):
so high profile case Ali Murdoc,he didn't he didn't give an interview
to media. But he was justhaving a call with with Jim, like
a regular attorney call, and hewas reading some things to Jim and uh,
they ended up on a documentary thatno money was made from it,
none of that that's not an issue. And he got Jim, he lost
(07:41):
his privileges for how long I can'tremember. Oh yeah, he lost his
phone privileges for at least a month. And you know they did some other
things, I mean, yeah,they well also too with that, there's
also my dad's in a federal facilitythat was a state facility, so that's
South Carolina Correctional This is FED Bureauof Prison. So it's two totally different
(08:03):
for avenues, but it's the same. It's a scene, you know,
and it's a problem. And whenwe went through that with with Alex Case,
I mean as lu you know thatthey claim they were going to come
in and do something about it.They didn't, but you know, that's
that's my next that's my next route. Because the thing is is if why
(08:24):
are you scared of these men andwomen talking, Why why don't you want
them talking to the press. Ifyou're doing everything you should be doing,
then there should be no harm inthem speaking to the press, especially if
you're not getting any money from it, which my father did not. Per
BOP policy, you are allowed todo interviews as long as there is no
monetary gain from it. Right right, The first the First Amendment of Protection
(08:50):
protected speech. Even if you arguethat someone like your father doesn't have that
constitutional right because he's in prison,which I don't agree with the press does
I mean, we as a publicneed to know, you know, what
what's going on when you are Whatwas your Jim, what was your question?
Yeah? I was going to pointout Savannah when the Department of the
(09:13):
Corrections that here was confronted about thispolicy, and why are you denying inmates
opportunity to talk to the press.I mean their justification is well, the
victims of their crime should not haveto hear their voices. Yet yet that's
every time my client talks to hisson on the telephone, they're releasing that
Freedom Information Act and it's been played, you know, in every outlet imaginable.
(09:37):
I mean, so don't you lovethat FOYA only works in certain instances.
It never works, It never worksfor us, but it works for
when they want to humiliate someone.You're exactly right, You're exactly right when
you do want to reach out toACLU one of my friends as a lot
of the prison litigation, and andwhat the lawyer now from Wilmer Hale.
(10:03):
Okay, and this this is alyou lawyer he works at He's like the
director of ACL you here. Heknows all the people and you know that
side of the world as well.So you have also been advocating aside from
the interview that your dad gave.And recently you posted something on your Instagram
(10:24):
which was a very long letter whatappears to be from someone I don't know
who to the director of theop isthat can you tell us about that and
how you came across that? SoI get letters all the time, and
this was actually a letter that notonly I was copied on, but you
(10:46):
have key members of Congress, thedirector, deputy director. There was about
sixty five people like copied on thisemail. And this is from someone at
the facility. I still do notknow who it is. There is some
whistleblower there that all this information iscoming from, such as environmental reports that
showed the prison knew about black moldback in twenty fourteen. I feel like
(11:11):
this is going to be another CampLa June type lawsuit that's going to come
their way because they've known about theseconditions. These men are showing up for
to serve three years, but reallythey're getting a life sentence based off the
conditions they're being forced to live inand we don't know that what the ramifications
(11:31):
are for black mold as best asthe lab based paint. The drinking water
is not safe for them to drink. But yet commissary is out of bottled
water, right right? Good grief? Yes, Bena, I have a
question for you. You know herein earlier that you have like a real
estate practice and obviously you've been onreality TV. How quickly did you have
(11:56):
to become an expert in all thesedifferent matters of the law, Because there
were those these last conversations that we'vebeen having, it just feels like you
have had to learn so much soquickly, and a wide variety of stuff,
like not just dealing with the courtstuff, but you're dealing with the
prison stuff. So you know,A shorter version of that is like how
long did this take you? Andthen how do you organize all this in
(12:16):
your mind? Yeah? I thinkwhen you have no other choice, you
do it. This is life ordeath situation because I look at it and
when I'm in these visitation rooms,especially where my father is, I see
these men who were in their latesixties seventies, and I'm like, that
could be my dad, Like mydad could potentially die in here, and
(12:37):
I'm not going to allow that tohappen. So I stay up at all
hours of the night. If Iget three or four hours of sleep,
I'm happy because I'm going to researchthese things and I'm going to find the
right people to help me. Andyou just educate yourself. Because I was
toned off to our system. Itdidn't affect me. I didn't care about
it. And that's my biggest messageto people now is don't wait until you're
(12:58):
affected to actually care about it andopen your eyes to something bigger than yourself.
And because of that, that's whyI'm such an advocate for our prison
system. And yes I am aconservative, but amongst conservatives, conservatives aren't
for prison reform until the Trump administrationwhen the First Step Act was enacted,
(13:20):
and that was a bipartisan bill thatwas brought in in twenty eighteen, and
it's giving non violent offenders a secondchance to re enter back into society in
a faster, safer manner. Andbecause of that, I'm like, thank
God, that's why my parents' sentenceswent down due to the First Step Act.
And looking at these facilities too,you're talking about Donald Trump wanted to
(13:43):
close down these prison camps. Hisviewpoint was was, if you can be
at a facility like this and walkout the doors and no one's going to
stop you, then you should beat home. You should be serving your
time at home, and you shouldbe contributing back to society. And so
for me, just like one hundredand twenty five federal facilities, it's a
report I love to go to.It came out over the summer. It
(14:05):
was office. There was an OIGreport done and it said all one hundred
and twenty five federal facilities were inneed of drastic repairs and upwards of two
billion dollars two billion dollars worth ofrepairs that needed to be done to these
facilities. Congress gave them sixty millionfor these repairs. So you got two
billion, but only sixty million aregiven. And so you look at it
(14:28):
and you're like, all right,where where are we going wrong? What
can we do to help these menand women and are back into society.
And that's where I am going tohopefully be able to reach some of my
conservative friends and just neighbors. IsHey, you know what, you there's
a book that I'm reading and it'stalking about reforming criminal justice from a Christian
(14:52):
perspective. And it's by a guyMatt Martin's. He's a lawyer at Wilmer
Hale, but he also went toSeminary Savanah. Matt's a really good friend
of mine. We did the caserecently and I love him super supero.
Yeah, And so his book,it really was a slap in the face
to me because it made me realize, like, WHOA, I had never
(15:18):
thought of it this way because whenyou talk about being pro life. For
all my conservative friends, pro lifedoesn't just stop with a child. It
doesn't just stop with a fetus oran unworn baby. It goes to the
full extent of someone's life from zeroto one hundred. And that's where I
(15:39):
hope within our prison system people willrealize, like, hey, you don't
get to choose when your pro lifeand when you're not, because that's hypocritical.
And that's where I'm at right now, is you don't have to and
to if you don't care about thesemen and women, that's on you.
Let's come from a very selfish standpointof where your taxpayer dollars are going.
Your taxpayer dollars are going to aplace that really they don't need to go.
(16:00):
There was just a report, Iwant to say, by Corey Booker
that was just put out that statedover one hundred and forty million dollars of
taxpayer dollars have gone to waste becausethe BOP doesn't know how to calculate FSA
credits for the First st At Act, So they are falsely imprisoning these men
(16:21):
and women six months to a yearlonger than they ever should have been in
there because they don't know how toimplement all these different things. So that's
one hundred and forty million dollars.And so for people, you should probably
pay attention to where your money's goingand do you really want your money going
to a system that's just abusing people. Because there's a reason why we have
the highest cidivism rate of all ourNATO countries. We're doing something wrong and
(16:45):
what is that that we're doing wrong? Let me ask you something. Speaking
of being conservative, I mean,number one, I appreciate your pro life
view, but that is not aprevalent view among your conservative brothers and sisters.
There's a lot of hypocrisy about we'repro life for the fetus, but
(17:06):
we're not pro life about people thatare on death row, you know,
put them on death row. SoI very much appreciate that. But in
terms of things too, I thinka big thing for people to take into
consideration is, especially with me,after dealing with this, I know,
without a shadow of a doubt myparents are innocent. There are people on
death row who are innocent. Onein twenty criminal cases result in a wrongful
(17:30):
conviction. If we can't even getthat right, we're sending someone to death
and then it comes out twenty thirtyforty years later that they didn't commit this
crime. What if you would havekilled this man, what if you would
have put him to death? That'swhere I have an issue with it.
And at the end of the day, if you're so conservative and Christian and
(17:52):
all these things, that's God's decisionto make. That's not my decision to
put you to death. God willdo his work right, I agree.
And politics, obviously was a bigpart of this case. You mentioned about
the prosecutor's pitch to the jury thatyou're the trump at the south, that
the judge was a Democrat, andon that point I think you also mentioned
(18:15):
you should mention this that she excusedthe one juror that seemed to have been
pro defense, so it was thiswas a four week trial. She had
read the jurors their rights to goback into the deliberation room, and then
she had one jur stay behind,sent all the other ones out, and
(18:37):
she called the juror up to thebench and she said, I've noticed you've
had a hard time staying awake duringthis trial. And the juror said,
no, ma'am. The screens aredown on the floor to view the evidence.
And she said, I was processingthings and she said I wasn't sleeping.
And the judge said, well,to my knowledge, you've had a
hard time staying awake. I'm goingto relieve you of your duties. You
(19:00):
can go home. We obviously havedo that because during trial, when the
government had their witness is on thestand, their key witness, our this
juror was audibly just slapping her notebooks, shaking her head like this. This
is basically this is a ridiculous.That was the body language she was getting
(19:21):
and she she was just audibly inour favor, and that's who the judge
went home. Wow, wow,So you so with back to the politics
and to our judge, So theyou know, they've prosecutors labelized Trumps of
the South. Our judge was alsothe judge that ruled against Trump when it
(19:41):
came to mail in balance. Soobviously I have my theories of certain things
and wait the way things went down. But also too, at the end
of the day, you should neveruse someone's political beliefs in order to get
the outcome that you want to get. Everyone's political beliefs are what they are,
and it's because their own life experiences, and so the name Donald J.
(20:03):
Trump should have never been used toincite anger amongst the jurors, should
have never been used. But toI mean, you're obviously very openly supporting
Donald Trump, You're going to votefor him. You just recently met him
in Georgia. You're speaking at SEAPAC, one of the most conservative organizations around.
And you know, I wrote abook and came out right before the
(20:27):
pandemic about the Trump campaign crimes.I mean, as a lawyer, I
take the position that there were crimescommitted, and one of the chapters is
pardon me, Pardon who, Andso I just keep I want to be
the fly on the wall. Whenyou met Donald Trump recently in Georgia.
(20:48):
And I'm wondering if you had anyconversations about, you know, your belief
in your parents' innocence, and whetherhe would support you the way you're supporting
him. You know, he is, he's he knows Fulton County. He
right now fighting Fulton County in thestate of Georgia. You see what's going
(21:08):
on with Fanny Willis. You seeall the corrupt things that have occurred there.
And when I was with him,he was aware of our case.
He knew of it. And he'sobviously Trump issued the most pardons of any
other presidents. And as we werejust I aunt too. You look at,
for prime example, Chris Collins,Congressman Chris Collins, he and I
(21:30):
we had our long conversations. Heserved time at Pensacola. He is now
getting ready to run again. Hewas pardoned by Trump. And it just
goes to show that Chris Collins stubvercharted his back on President Trump when everyone
else when the whole video came outabout you know, grabbing what all that,
(21:52):
Chris Collins was the one who stoodbehind Trump and was like, you
know what, it was locker roomtalk. And so when a lot of
people turn their backs on him.Chris Collins did not. And because of
that, I truly do believe thatDonald Trump, who who. If you're
loyal to him, He's loyal toyou. Is what I believe. I
haven't been given any promises. Ihaven't none of that. But also I'm
(22:12):
standing firm in my conviction that theseare the things that I believe in.
And because of the First Step Actand Jared Kushner behind that Act, I
mean, I see that impact thatit's having on my parents. And you
go to our prison system, youguarantee you you will have sixty to seventy
percent of the mend mayor that loveDonald Trump. And the reason for that
(22:33):
is because he's giving them a fasterway to enter back into society. Why
do I have a feeling, Jim, that she's going to end up like
we're going to see her on TVon some show on it part of the
Trump camp, part of the Trumpadministrations. She's going to be the ambassador
of criminal justice for the Trump Trumps. Now, would you take that job
(22:56):
if he offered it to you withouta doubt, because at the end of
the day, I don't believe Iwould take it if a Democrat offered it
to me. It's not about tome. Criminal justice is not a left
or right issue. It's a humanityissue. And if we had more people
that would view it that way,and we had politicians who were open to
(23:18):
differences of opinions and beliefs and figuringout how do we come together, how
do we do what's best for people, then I think we would be so
much more successful. But there's toomuch ego in the room for that to
occur, at least as of now. Well there's without a doubt it took
a Republican president to get the FirstSteps Out passed. And I give Donald
(23:41):
Trump credit where credit is due.I mean, if a Democratic president try
to get that legislation passed, hecould never have gotten He could never have
gotten it by the Republics. Butbut you know, I'm telling you it's
a great piece of legislation and weneed more of it like that. And
your question about Savannah, I thinkSavannah can do whatever the hell she wants
to do. I've been very oppressedimpressed with you today, Savanna. It's
(24:03):
been really really wow because it waslike we're talking to a reality TV you
know, I did go on YouTubeand so are you talking about some boyfriend.
I was like, what in theworld are we doing. I gotta
tell you, I'm telling the truth. I was just like, what the
heck? See, that's what Imean. He started sending me these one
(24:27):
sentence emails, right, and Okay, you don't understand, but see.
And that's also a thing that Ithink we need is so many everyday people
need someone like that. They don'tneed politicians speaking at them and just telling
them how things should be. Theyneed people who have gone through it and
(24:48):
who I've seen it firsthand and whowere toned up to it beforehand. And
that's where I think now I canbe very, very beneficial. And when
with my social media presence, it'sobviously working because you had the deputy director
of the BOP viewing my LinkedIn page. Now, why are you viewing my
LinkedIn page? I know you're payingthe premium, Like, yeah, okay,
(25:15):
it's like five hundred dollars a year. I'm looking at you. Yes,
And I'm an investigator. I evendown to Pensacola has received millions of
taxpayer dollars to repair their roofs afterthe hurricane years and years ago. Those
roofs still hot, still have notbeen repaired. But when Pensacola realized that
(25:38):
the BOP was going to be coming, they had roofers to come out there
to do temporary repairs. I pickedup the phone. I called the roofing
company. I recorded the phone conversationbecause Tennessee is a one party state,
and I started asking the questions,what were you hired to do? Were
you aware that they're black mold?Were you aware that the repairs that you're
(25:59):
making are just in conting more moistureand causing more black mold? And you
have the lady on the phone stating, ma'am, we you know, we
were hired from the government just todo temporary repairs. So the government's not
wanting to fix it. They're wantingto put a little band aid over it.
And it's causing these men. Yes, it's causing health issues. And
(26:19):
that is an issue. The factthat you have men they're being prescribed given
the wrong medication and you are passingout, leading out going to the hospital.
I mean, there are so manyand even with the Cares Act,
Cares Act was huge, but allthe misconduct that has gone on with the
Cares Act is baffling. And youhave a counselor that is at my father's
(26:41):
facility that states in internal emails whenthey are subpoena and they will see the
email to where she states that shewill no longer submit any more black men
for the Cares Act because they havea propensity for thats. And so my
thing is is there's all business conductgoing on, and they're so concerned.
(27:03):
I'm sitting on audio recordings. YeahI'm talking. They're so concerned about how
I'm getting information. It's their ownpeople giving me the information. It's their
own people who were tired. It'snot just my parents that are suffering,
it's also correctional officers higher up becausethey're preparing theirselves that they have to if
(27:25):
they have to sue the BOP.And so I'm getting all this information.
And I released a recording of wherecorrectional officers confiscated a cell phone from a
guy. They don't have enough intellectto make sure the phone's turned off before
they start talking about their illegal activity. But the correctional officers talk about taking
these phones and reselling them, andthey said, I thought the last time
(27:48):
was the last time we were goingto do this, And the CEO goes,
well, let's just do it onemore time. So they're confiscating so
called contraband to them turn around andresell them to inmates to pad their own
pockets. And so my thing isis, why aren't they wearing body camp
Why aren't they wearing body cams?But they it wasn't There also another recording
(28:10):
you have in your stash that uhabout sexual misconduct by one of the what
is that? I am sitting ontwo different recordings, one from my mother's
facility and one from my father's facility. One of them states, how women
(28:30):
are you know, in prison forso long? So of course they want
sex and of course you know,of course they can get it. These
are CEOs saying these things. Butthen you also have this other CEO my
dad's facility talking about how he watchedwomen get raped in another facility. So
(28:52):
I'm sitting on all of these thingsand something it's gonna take, and too
you have them use it the endword talking about running these in people over
it is. It brings chills tomy body. And I guarantee you Corey
Booker is not going to see tookindly upon all these audio recordings when he
sits and hears them. And Idid sit down with the Governor of New
(29:15):
Jersey three months ago on my podcast. Yeah wow, okay, so there
is listen. I hope you youknow this is a platform for justice.
I hope you come back and joinus and tell us about all the wonderful
work that you're doing. Savannah FaithChrisly, a woman of strength, a
woman of faith. I admire youso much. I could you completely change
(29:38):
my mind about the whole reality TVRich Bratt girl thing. Hopefully Jim's too.
You're very impressive. Probably won't belistening to you talking about your boyfriend
much. I really like what you'redoing now, I really do. Thank
you, and he will be intouch. And and we invite everybody to
(30:00):
follow you and follow the podcast unlockedon all the podcast platforms where you listen
to your podcast and on YouTube rightYouTube, yes, YouTube as well.
Yeah, and also while you're onYouTube, check out our pod. This
is the first time listening. We'vegot tons of episodes. We're called the
Presumption. We're at the Presumption onall the social media platforms. And again,
Savana, excellent job today. Thankyou so much for coming on to
(30:22):
our show. Thank you all right, Sarah, Jim, thank you every
man, and until next week,Jim, we rest
Welcome back to the Presumption. I'mSarah A sorry, and I'm here with
my partner in crime, Jim Griffin. A Jim, Hey, Sarah,
and Matt Fondelier and we're with ourvery special guest, Savannah Chrisley. Hi,
Savannah, thank you so much.Love talking to me all. So
this is good. So we wantto focus this conversation. You know,
(00:46):
I'm about the positive, the goodvibes, the solution, you know,
because God knows, our jobs arelike reality TV, but a dark one.
And so what really sort of drewmy interest to you was the work
that you're doing, just being sovocal about the conditions in prison that your
dat is facing, advocating for criminaljustice. I also want to touch on
(01:11):
some of the politics in your parents'case. Uh. You know, one
of the things that we really don'tcare about on this platform is politics.
We I can tell you, Jimand I don't. I think Matt too.
We're not we're not politically aligned withyou, okay, but we don't
know. I'm an anarchist, I'mnot aligned with anybody, and we really
(01:34):
you know, I mean Jim moreso than me because of where he's located.
But I've got a number of clientswho, uh, you know,
have told me, hey, Idon't vote for the same guy you do,
but I like your you know,advocacy whatever. So it's not about
politics, but there are some thingsthat you feel very strongly about. And
of course this is election year,so I kind of want to take that
(01:55):
conversation there a little bit as well. So your father is housed in the
federal Camp Pensacola. It's a minimumsecurity camp for white collar funders. And
we say prison is not a park. So when people start complaining, you
know, to some extent, obviouslymake sure our clients are okay, but
we're like, it's not a park. I mean, you're in prison,
you know. And however, there'ssome really horrible things about where your dad
(02:19):
is. And I absolutely believe hiscomplaints because I found twelve motions under the
Cares Act during COVID and I gotfive people out because of those conditions.
And you and I were having thisconversation on over the weekend where you know
you're you're doing it's like similar tohow I was doing it. They couldn't
(02:40):
figure out how I was getting theinformation that I was getting, you know,
the inside information and you know,speaking of receipts and stats that you
keep so well, you have somestuff that you're sitting on as well about
that prison. So tell us aboutthe conditions at Pensacola and what sort of
(03:00):
what you're doing to expose those andwhat your father's done. Yeah, So
I've gone on Fox News Nation,I've been very vocal about the conditions.
And by no means do I thinkthis should be a four seasons you're in
prison, but you should also havethe basic necessities clean drinking water, food,
(03:21):
you know, air conditioning, justthe bare minimum, and they don't
have that. It was fifteen degreesthis past week there and they had no
heat. These men were literally freezingand they did nothing about it. The
worden doesn't care. Also, youlook at it, and I've become very
(03:45):
vocal about it because at the endof the day, we are treating illegal
immigrants that come into our country betterthan we're treating our own people that are
in our prisons. It is whatit is. It costs about three hundred
and fifty dollars a day to housean illegal immigrant. It cost about one
hundred hundred and fifty dollars a dayto house a federal inmate. So first
off, we're already going wrong there, and too there's black mold. It's
(04:10):
best as lead based paint. They'reconsuming food. They're chicken from back in
twenty nineteen, twenty nineteen. Butyet they're given funding every year to order
food. So where is that fundinggoing if you're feeding them food from twenty
nineteen. And that's where I thinkit's going to hit Congress is when you
start pulling out Let's forget about themen. Let's forget about the men and
(04:31):
women. Let's look at the dollarsand you look at the amount of waste
that has occurred and where this money'sgoing, because I can tell you where
some of it's going. In Pensacola, it's going in the warden's pockets.
It's going they're stealing fem equipment,they're stealing food from the commissary. They're
stealing tide pods to where the mendon't get their laundry done for a week
(04:56):
because the CEOs walk out with allthe tide pods. It's things like this
are occurring and there's no one tohold them accountable. So yeah, go
ahead, Jim, Yes, Savannah, I know that your Dad's been vocal
about the conditions there and has beentrying to you know, publicize it and
did any wanted to have interviews withthe you know, the media to shine
(05:19):
the spotlight on it, and hewas denying those requests. But but ultimately
he was able to give an interviewwith Brian Innton of New News Nation as
a friend of ours. How didhow did Brian arrange that? Was?
That was that it was through itwas it was through the lawyers. It
was through legal call and they youknow, they submitted their request. They
(05:44):
went through the proper channels in orderto be able to sit down and do
an interview with him. But ofcourse it was denied. They said that
it would cause a serious risk tothe facility to have Dad do an interview
and that it's it's complete and soit's so he called his lawyer, and
(06:05):
his lawyer put Brian on a threeway and there no, Brian did not
go there. He the lawyer wasasking questions and Brian was asking questions.
I really don't know in its entiretyhow exactly it went down. I just
know that there has been a lotof retaliation since then. But it's also
(06:29):
something my Dad's like, you knowwhat, I'm willing to put up with
it if it means that it's goingto cause lasting change. And because of
that interview, you've had the deputydirector the BOP show up at the facility.
You have had they're doing extensive youknow, walkthroughs and looking at everything.
Dad was pulled aside by people.I mean, people are listening now.
(06:53):
But the issue is is the BOPgives these prisons the heads up of
when they're coming. So you're givingthem a heads up so they can turn
around and hide stuff. Just likewhen they found out the BOP was coming,
they had all these men take allthe expired food, put it in
a tractor trailer truck, and thenwhen the BOP left, they brought all
the food back into the cafeteria.So Jim, Jim's client, you know,
(07:17):
so high profile case Ali Murdoc,he didn't he didn't give an interview
to media. But he was justhaving a call with with Jim, like
a regular attorney call, and hewas reading some things to Jim and uh,
they ended up on a documentary thatno money was made from it,
none of that that's not an issue. And he got Jim, he lost
(07:41):
his privileges for how long I can'tremember. Oh yeah, he lost his
phone privileges for at least a month. And you know they did some other
things, I mean, yeah,they well also too with that, there's
also my dad's in a federal facilitythat was a state facility, so that's
South Carolina Correctional This is FED Bureauof Prison. So it's two totally different
(08:03):
for avenues, but it's the same. It's a scene, you know,
and it's a problem. And whenwe went through that with with Alex Case,
I mean as lu you know thatthey claim they were going to come
in and do something about it.They didn't, but you know, that's
that's my next that's my next route. Because the thing is is if why
(08:24):
are you scared of these men andwomen talking, Why why don't you want
them talking to the press. Ifyou're doing everything you should be doing,
then there should be no harm inthem speaking to the press, especially if
you're not getting any money from it, which my father did not. Per
BOP policy, you are allowed todo interviews as long as there is no
monetary gain from it. Right right, The first the First Amendment of Protection
(08:50):
protected speech. Even if you arguethat someone like your father doesn't have that
constitutional right because he's in prison,which I don't agree with the press does
I mean, we as a publicneed to know, you know, what
what's going on when you are Whatwas your Jim, what was your question?
Yeah? I was going to pointout Savannah when the Department of the
(09:13):
Corrections that here was confronted about thispolicy, and why are you denying inmates
opportunity to talk to the press.I mean their justification is well, the
victims of their crime should not haveto hear their voices. Yet yet that's
every time my client talks to hisson on the telephone, they're releasing that
Freedom Information Act and it's been played, you know, in every outlet imaginable.
(09:37):
I mean, so don't you lovethat FOYA only works in certain instances.
It never works, It never worksfor us, but it works for
when they want to humiliate someone.You're exactly right, You're exactly right when
you do want to reach out toACLU one of my friends as a lot
of the prison litigation, and andwhat the lawyer now from Wilmer Hale.
(10:03):
Okay, and this this is alyou lawyer he works at He's like the
director of ACL you here. Heknows all the people and you know that
side of the world as well.So you have also been advocating aside from
the interview that your dad gave.And recently you posted something on your Instagram
(10:24):
which was a very long letter whatappears to be from someone I don't know
who to the director of theop isthat can you tell us about that and
how you came across that? SoI get letters all the time, and
this was actually a letter that notonly I was copied on, but you
(10:46):
have key members of Congress, thedirector, deputy director. There was about
sixty five people like copied on thisemail. And this is from someone at
the facility. I still do notknow who it is. There is some
whistleblower there that all this information iscoming from, such as environmental reports that
showed the prison knew about black moldback in twenty fourteen. I feel like
(11:11):
this is going to be another CampLa June type lawsuit that's going to come
their way because they've known about theseconditions. These men are showing up for
to serve three years, but reallythey're getting a life sentence based off the
conditions they're being forced to live inand we don't know that what the ramifications
(11:31):
are for black mold as best asthe lab based paint. The drinking water
is not safe for them to drink. But yet commissary is out of bottled
water, right right? Good grief? Yes, Bena, I have a
question for you. You know herein earlier that you have like a real
estate practice and obviously you've been onreality TV. How quickly did you have
(11:56):
to become an expert in all thesedifferent matters of the law, Because there
were those these last conversations that we'vebeen having, it just feels like you
have had to learn so much soquickly, and a wide variety of stuff,
like not just dealing with the courtstuff, but you're dealing with the
prison stuff. So you know,A shorter version of that is like how
long did this take you? Andthen how do you organize all this in
(12:16):
your mind? Yeah? I thinkwhen you have no other choice, you
do it. This is life ordeath situation because I look at it and
when I'm in these visitation rooms,especially where my father is, I see
these men who were in their latesixties seventies, and I'm like, that
could be my dad, Like mydad could potentially die in here, and
(12:37):
I'm not going to allow that tohappen. So I stay up at all
hours of the night. If Iget three or four hours of sleep,
I'm happy because I'm going to researchthese things and I'm going to find the
right people to help me. Andyou just educate yourself. Because I was
toned off to our system. Itdidn't affect me. I didn't care about
it. And that's my biggest messageto people now is don't wait until you're
(12:58):
affected to actually care about it andopen your eyes to something bigger than yourself.
And because of that, that's whyI'm such an advocate for our prison
system. And yes I am aconservative, but amongst conservatives, conservatives aren't
for prison reform until the Trump administrationwhen the First Step Act was enacted,
(13:20):
and that was a bipartisan bill thatwas brought in in twenty eighteen, and
it's giving non violent offenders a secondchance to re enter back into society in
a faster, safer manner. Andbecause of that, I'm like, thank
God, that's why my parents' sentenceswent down due to the First Step Act.
And looking at these facilities too,you're talking about Donald Trump wanted to
(13:43):
close down these prison camps. Hisviewpoint was was, if you can be
at a facility like this and walkout the doors and no one's going to
stop you, then you should beat home. You should be serving your
time at home, and you shouldbe contributing back to society. And so
for me, just like one hundredand twenty five federal facilities, it's a
report I love to go to.It came out over the summer. It
(14:05):
was office. There was an OIGreport done and it said all one hundred
and twenty five federal facilities were inneed of drastic repairs and upwards of two
billion dollars two billion dollars worth ofrepairs that needed to be done to these
facilities. Congress gave them sixty millionfor these repairs. So you got two
billion, but only sixty million aregiven. And so you look at it
(14:28):
and you're like, all right,where where are we going wrong? What
can we do to help these menand women and are back into society.
And that's where I am going tohopefully be able to reach some of my
conservative friends and just neighbors. IsHey, you know what, you there's
a book that I'm reading and it'stalking about reforming criminal justice from a Christian
(14:52):
perspective. And it's by a guyMatt Martin's. He's a lawyer at Wilmer
Hale, but he also went toSeminary Savanah. Matt's a really good friend
of mine. We did the caserecently and I love him super supero.
Yeah, And so his book,it really was a slap in the face
to me because it made me realize, like, WHOA, I had never
(15:18):
thought of it this way because whenyou talk about being pro life. For
all my conservative friends, pro lifedoesn't just stop with a child. It
doesn't just stop with a fetus oran unworn baby. It goes to the
full extent of someone's life from zeroto one hundred. And that's where I
(15:39):
hope within our prison system people willrealize, like, hey, you don't
get to choose when your pro lifeand when you're not, because that's hypocritical.
And that's where I'm at right now, is you don't have to and
to if you don't care about thesemen and women, that's on you.
Let's come from a very selfish standpointof where your taxpayer dollars are going.
Your taxpayer dollars are going to aplace that really they don't need to go.
(16:00):
There was just a report, Iwant to say, by Corey Booker
that was just put out that statedover one hundred and forty million dollars of
taxpayer dollars have gone to waste becausethe BOP doesn't know how to calculate FSA
credits for the First st At Act, So they are falsely imprisoning these men
(16:21):
and women six months to a yearlonger than they ever should have been in
there because they don't know how toimplement all these different things. So that's
one hundred and forty million dollars.And so for people, you should probably
pay attention to where your money's goingand do you really want your money going
to a system that's just abusing people. Because there's a reason why we have
the highest cidivism rate of all ourNATO countries. We're doing something wrong and
(16:45):
what is that that we're doing wrong? Let me ask you something. Speaking
of being conservative, I mean,number one, I appreciate your pro life
view, but that is not aprevalent view among your conservative brothers and sisters.
There's a lot of hypocrisy about we'repro life for the fetus, but
(17:06):
we're not pro life about people thatare on death row, you know,
put them on death row. SoI very much appreciate that. But in
terms of things too, I thinka big thing for people to take into
consideration is, especially with me,after dealing with this, I know,
without a shadow of a doubt myparents are innocent. There are people on
death row who are innocent. Onein twenty criminal cases result in a wrongful
(17:30):
conviction. If we can't even getthat right, we're sending someone to death
and then it comes out twenty thirtyforty years later that they didn't commit this
crime. What if you would havekilled this man, what if you would
have put him to death? That'swhere I have an issue with it.
And at the end of the day, if you're so conservative and Christian and
(17:52):
all these things, that's God's decisionto make. That's not my decision to
put you to death. God willdo his work right, I agree.
And politics, obviously was a bigpart of this case. You mentioned about
the prosecutor's pitch to the jury thatyou're the trump at the south, that
the judge was a Democrat, andon that point I think you also mentioned
(18:15):
you should mention this that she excusedthe one juror that seemed to have been
pro defense, so it was thiswas a four week trial. She had
read the jurors their rights to goback into the deliberation room, and then
she had one jur stay behind,sent all the other ones out, and
(18:37):
she called the juror up to thebench and she said, I've noticed you've
had a hard time staying awake duringthis trial. And the juror said,
no, ma'am. The screens aredown on the floor to view the evidence.
And she said, I was processingthings and she said I wasn't sleeping.
And the judge said, well,to my knowledge, you've had a
hard time staying awake. I'm goingto relieve you of your duties. You
(19:00):
can go home. We obviously havedo that because during trial, when the
government had their witness is on thestand, their key witness, our this
juror was audibly just slapping her notebooks, shaking her head like this. This
is basically this is a ridiculous.That was the body language she was getting
(19:21):
and she she was just audibly inour favor, and that's who the judge
went home. Wow, wow,So you so with back to the politics
and to our judge, So theyou know, they've prosecutors labelized Trumps of
the South. Our judge was alsothe judge that ruled against Trump when it
(19:41):
came to mail in balance. Soobviously I have my theories of certain things
and wait the way things went down. But also too, at the end
of the day, you should neveruse someone's political beliefs in order to get
the outcome that you want to get. Everyone's political beliefs are what they are,
and it's because their own life experiences, and so the name Donald J.
(20:03):
Trump should have never been used toincite anger amongst the jurors, should
have never been used. But toI mean, you're obviously very openly supporting
Donald Trump, You're going to votefor him. You just recently met him
in Georgia. You're speaking at SEAPAC, one of the most conservative organizations around.
And you know, I wrote abook and came out right before the
(20:27):
pandemic about the Trump campaign crimes.I mean, as a lawyer, I
take the position that there were crimescommitted, and one of the chapters is
pardon me, Pardon who, Andso I just keep I want to be
the fly on the wall. Whenyou met Donald Trump recently in Georgia.
(20:48):
And I'm wondering if you had anyconversations about, you know, your belief
in your parents' innocence, and whetherhe would support you the way you're supporting
him. You know, he is, he's he knows Fulton County. He
right now fighting Fulton County in thestate of Georgia. You see what's going
(21:08):
on with Fanny Willis. You seeall the corrupt things that have occurred there.
And when I was with him,he was aware of our case.
He knew of it. And he'sobviously Trump issued the most pardons of any
other presidents. And as we werejust I aunt too. You look at,
for prime example, Chris Collins,Congressman Chris Collins, he and I
(21:30):
we had our long conversations. Heserved time at Pensacola. He is now
getting ready to run again. Hewas pardoned by Trump. And it just
goes to show that Chris Collins stubvercharted his back on President Trump when everyone
else when the whole video came outabout you know, grabbing what all that,
(21:52):
Chris Collins was the one who stoodbehind Trump and was like, you
know what, it was locker roomtalk. And so when a lot of
people turn their backs on him.Chris Collins did not. And because of
that, I truly do believe thatDonald Trump, who who. If you're
loyal to him, He's loyal toyou. Is what I believe. I
haven't been given any promises. Ihaven't none of that. But also I'm
(22:12):
standing firm in my conviction that theseare the things that I believe in.
And because of the First Step Actand Jared Kushner behind that Act, I
mean, I see that impact thatit's having on my parents. And you
go to our prison system, youguarantee you you will have sixty to seventy
percent of the mend mayor that loveDonald Trump. And the reason for that
(22:33):
is because he's giving them a fasterway to enter back into society. Why
do I have a feeling, Jim, that she's going to end up like
we're going to see her on TVon some show on it part of the
Trump camp, part of the Trumpadministrations. She's going to be the ambassador
of criminal justice for the Trump Trumps. Now, would you take that job
(22:56):
if he offered it to you withouta doubt, because at the end of
the day, I don't believe Iwould take it if a Democrat offered it
to me. It's not about tome. Criminal justice is not a left
or right issue. It's a humanityissue. And if we had more people
that would view it that way,and we had politicians who were open to
(23:18):
differences of opinions and beliefs and figuringout how do we come together, how
do we do what's best for people, then I think we would be so
much more successful. But there's toomuch ego in the room for that to
occur, at least as of now. Well there's without a doubt it took
a Republican president to get the FirstSteps Out passed. And I give Donald
(23:41):
Trump credit where credit is due.I mean, if a Democratic president try
to get that legislation passed, hecould never have gotten He could never have
gotten it by the Republics. Butbut you know, I'm telling you it's
a great piece of legislation and weneed more of it like that. And
your question about Savannah, I thinkSavannah can do whatever the hell she wants
to do. I've been very oppressedimpressed with you today, Savanna. It's
(24:03):
been really really wow because it waslike we're talking to a reality TV you
know, I did go on YouTubeand so are you talking about some boyfriend.
I was like, what in theworld are we doing. I gotta
tell you, I'm telling the truth. I was just like, what the
heck? See, that's what Imean. He started sending me these one
(24:27):
sentence emails, right, and Okay, you don't understand, but see.
And that's also a thing that Ithink we need is so many everyday people
need someone like that. They don'tneed politicians speaking at them and just telling
them how things should be. Theyneed people who have gone through it and
(24:48):
who I've seen it firsthand and whowere toned up to it beforehand. And
that's where I think now I canbe very, very beneficial. And when
with my social media presence, it'sobviously working because you had the deputy director
of the BOP viewing my LinkedIn page. Now, why are you viewing my
LinkedIn page? I know you're payingthe premium, Like, yeah, okay,
(25:15):
it's like five hundred dollars a year. I'm looking at you. Yes,
And I'm an investigator. I evendown to Pensacola has received millions of
taxpayer dollars to repair their roofs afterthe hurricane years and years ago. Those
roofs still hot, still have notbeen repaired. But when Pensacola realized that
(25:38):
the BOP was going to be coming, they had roofers to come out there
to do temporary repairs. I pickedup the phone. I called the roofing
company. I recorded the phone conversationbecause Tennessee is a one party state,
and I started asking the questions,what were you hired to do? Were
you aware that they're black mold?Were you aware that the repairs that you're
(25:59):
making are just in conting more moistureand causing more black mold? And you
have the lady on the phone stating, ma'am, we you know, we
were hired from the government just todo temporary repairs. So the government's not
wanting to fix it. They're wantingto put a little band aid over it.
And it's causing these men. Yes, it's causing health issues. And
(26:19):
that is an issue. The factthat you have men they're being prescribed given
the wrong medication and you are passingout, leading out going to the hospital.
I mean, there are so manyand even with the Cares Act,
Cares Act was huge, but allthe misconduct that has gone on with the
Cares Act is baffling. And youhave a counselor that is at my father's
(26:41):
facility that states in internal emails whenthey are subpoena and they will see the
email to where she states that shewill no longer submit any more black men
for the Cares Act because they havea propensity for thats. And so my
thing is is there's all business conductgoing on, and they're so concerned.
(27:03):
I'm sitting on audio recordings. YeahI'm talking. They're so concerned about how
I'm getting information. It's their ownpeople giving me the information. It's their
own people who were tired. It'snot just my parents that are suffering,
it's also correctional officers higher up becausethey're preparing theirselves that they have to if
(27:25):
they have to sue the BOP.And so I'm getting all this information.
And I released a recording of wherecorrectional officers confiscated a cell phone from a
guy. They don't have enough intellectto make sure the phone's turned off before
they start talking about their illegal activity. But the correctional officers talk about taking
these phones and reselling them, andthey said, I thought the last time
(27:48):
was the last time we were goingto do this, And the CEO goes,
well, let's just do it onemore time. So they're confiscating so
called contraband to them turn around andresell them to inmates to pad their own
pockets. And so my thing isis, why aren't they wearing body camp
Why aren't they wearing body cams?But they it wasn't There also another recording
(28:10):
you have in your stash that uhabout sexual misconduct by one of the what
is that? I am sitting ontwo different recordings, one from my mother's
facility and one from my father's facility. One of them states, how women
(28:30):
are you know, in prison forso long? So of course they want
sex and of course you know,of course they can get it. These
are CEOs saying these things. Butthen you also have this other CEO my
dad's facility talking about how he watchedwomen get raped in another facility. So
(28:52):
I'm sitting on all of these thingsand something it's gonna take, and too
you have them use it the endword talking about running these in people over
it is. It brings chills tomy body. And I guarantee you Corey
Booker is not going to see tookindly upon all these audio recordings when he
sits and hears them. And Idid sit down with the Governor of New
(29:15):
Jersey three months ago on my podcast. Yeah wow, okay, so there
is listen. I hope you youknow this is a platform for justice.
I hope you come back and joinus and tell us about all the wonderful
work that you're doing. Savannah FaithChrisly, a woman of strength, a
woman of faith. I admire youso much. I could you completely change
(29:38):
my mind about the whole reality TVRich Bratt girl thing. Hopefully Jim's too.
You're very impressive. Probably won't belistening to you talking about your boyfriend
much. I really like what you'redoing now, I really do. Thank
you, and he will be intouch. And and we invite everybody to
(30:00):
follow you and follow the podcast unlockedon all the podcast platforms where you listen
to your podcast and on YouTube rightYouTube, yes, YouTube as well.
Yeah, and also while you're onYouTube, check out our pod. This
is the first time listening. We'vegot tons of episodes. We're called the
Presumption. We're at the Presumption onall the social media platforms. And again,
Savana, excellent job today. Thankyou so much for coming on to
(30:22):
our show. Thank you all right, Sarah, Jim, thank you every
man, and until next week,Jim, we rest
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