February 6, 2024 • 35 mins
This week, criminal trial attorneys Sara Azari and Jim Griffin break down the conspiracy theories surrounding the death of legend and godfather of soul, James Brown. They also discuss the mysterious death of Brown’s son-in-law, and whether or not the two deaths are linked. Jim shares his experience representing two of Brown’s biological daughters in the ongoing litigation surrounding his estate. For more on this fascinating story, tune into the latest episode of Sara’s show ‘Death By Fame’, premiering February 12th on Investigation Discovery.
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Music – Caleb Fletcher
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Music – Caleb Fletcher
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:22):
Hello everyone, and welcome to thePresumption. I'm Sarah and I'm here with
my esteemed partner in crime, JimGriffin. Hey, Sarah, Hey.
Jim and Matt Fondalier are a wonderfulproducer. He Matt Hey. Hey.
So today it's just us, whichis always really fun, and it's always
extra fun when Jim shares these storiesthat he just sort of drops like a
(00:47):
random like you know, we hadhis daughter on not too long ago,
Hope. And suddenly, just verycasually, it came up that, like,
you know, Jim was involved inthe aftermath of James Brown's death in
some way, and and I'm like, wait a second. It dawned on
me that I just recently did thisepisode of Death by Fame, which is
(01:07):
a show on investigation Discovery, andI'm you know, honored to be the
legal host of the show and theambassador of the show. And we did
a whole episode on James Brown that'sgoing to air this season, focused on
more about his death. We don'tknow if it's a murder or not,
but his son in law's murder,and the idea was, you know,
(01:30):
we went into a lot about hiswealth. People that wanted a piece of
his estate. And so it turnsout that Jim was very much connected to
the estate and in the capacity ofan attorney. And so that's what the
(01:51):
conversation is going to be about today. And by May, I just wanted
to jump in and just say congratulationsto you, by by the way,
for making it to season two ofDeath by Fame, And for people who
aren't already regularly watching the show.It airs Monday night, nine pm Eastern
eighth Central on Investigation Discovery and italso streams on Discovery Plus. So I
(02:16):
guess just to start, I'm curiousfrom you guys, you know, are
really from you, Sarah. First, you know, what is James Brown's
connection to this show? And aswe start to dive into these conspiracies,
I know, Jim, you representedseveral of the I'm guessing many children.
I don't want to jump to conclusionshere, but I get the feeling,
you know, got the rock starvibes going. So yeah, I mean,
(02:39):
Sarah, can you maybe kick itoff here and explain a little bit
more about what's going on? Yeah, so just generally about Death by Fame.
You know, it actually is avery interesting show that focuses on how
Hollywood is not glitz and glamour,that there's this dark, sinister side to
Hollywood, and that people come heremy town thinking that they're going to make
(02:59):
it, but then they end upwith addiction, affliction, dangers, and
even death that comes with fame.So it's the dark side of fame.
And why James Brown fit into thisseason was you know, we always talk
about we don't need motive for murderor any crime, but money is often
(03:21):
a motive for crime, specifically murder. And so there's all these questions around
how James Brown died. Was itreally of congestive heart failure this Christmas of
twenty twenty oh two, I think, or twenty oh six, I'm sorry,
twenty oh six, or was ita plot to kill him? There
was a witness in the hospital,which will get into et cetera. So
(03:46):
James Brown is one of many interestingepisodes. There's one about jam Master j
run DMC's DJ and a whole slewof other stories. Eight episodes. So
I want to toss it over toJim. To your point, Matt,
you represented the estate against claimants,but apparently it was like two of his
(04:08):
biological daughters tell us a little bitabout how you got involved with the estate.
Yeah. So now I did notrepresent the estate. So I represented
two of his daughters that were bornout of wedlock and and and one one
was named Lronda Pettitt, she wasout of Houston. And the other one
was Nicole Parish, who whose Canadiancitizen, lived in Vancouver. And and
(04:32):
when James Brown died, his hismanagers knew that there was gonna be a
big fight over his estate because whathe left everything except for his personal belongings
and the house to a trust.And it was called the James Brown Feel
Good Trust. And the beneficiaries ofthe trust were underprivileged kids South Carolina and
(04:57):
Georgia who and for for scholarships highereducation. James Brown believed that education was
the way out of poverty. Hedidn't have a higher education. He was
extremely talented and hardest working man inshow business. And he provided the children
that that you know, he livedwith, with education opportunities. And that's
(05:17):
he thought that was enough. Andand so you know, what wealth he
had was going to be passed tothis charitable trust to give out scholarships and
and so and that was going tobe you know, challenged. He had
had a wife that had been marriedafterwards, and there was some issues was
(05:38):
it a legitimate marriage. Her namewas Tammy Ray and and Tammy had been
married to to, you know,some foreign national, whether it was an
arranged marriage so he can get UScitizenship. But it was kind of weird
and that was never annult And thenthey had a child, and and but
anyway, during all that, peopleknew that there were other children there and
(06:00):
without a doubt, and people weregoing to come forward and say, I'm
you know, James Brown's my daddy. And so what they did was they
got a pathologist who actually turns outto be the wife of a federal judge,
and they harvested some tissue from histhigh, and the federal judge and
(06:21):
his wife drove that tissue to alab corp in North Carolina to maintain the
chain of custody and so that anyonewho claimed that they were a child of
James Brown would take a DNA test, send it to lab Core and they
would test it against his DNA.And you know, was he your daddy?
(06:42):
And and so these two women,Lerondo approached me first and then Nicole
came afterwards. They both had positiveDNA test, and so to the extent
that there were benefits coming out ofthe whole estate fight, you know,
we wanted them to share those benefits. And so, you know, we
filed acclaim against the estate saying,you know, we were children of James
(07:05):
Brown, we were not named inthe will. We we don't know whether
he knew where we were his childrenor not. And so if if the
will is going to get busted,then you know, we're entitled to a
part of it. And and that'sthat's that's you know that that was my
involvement. What what was really interestingI had, you know, I'd filed
(07:28):
that paperwork Sarah and Matt in probatecourt in Acon County, South Carolina,
which is where he you know,he died. He he lived in a
small, really small community called BeachIsland, but he had the biggest house
in Beach Island, and but itwas in South Carolina. Gusta, Georgia
was his home. And and soI I go, I come back to
(07:53):
Columbia from Washington, d C.Where I had just pled a guy guilty
for campaign find that's violations involving nationaland federal campaigns. And it was a
big deal. And we were tryingto keep it quiet and and I showed
it at my office and flew infrom the airport and and my secretary says,
the BBC's on the phone for you. I didn't say all And and
(08:18):
I'm thinking the BBC's calling about thiscampaign finance pola that I just did.
And now they're calling about James Brownand my client Lorondo Pettitt and uh.
And it just went from now thatthat was the hottest story at the time
about James Brown's estate and and andand and and you know, I tell
(08:39):
you a little bit about more aboutLauranda and and Nicole if you want to
hear it. But yeah, andit's in a minute. I have a
question that a couple of questions.There were two of his daughters, uh
that that you know, this cameup in my research for the show that
had fought to be the representatives ofhis estate. Those were not the two
that you represented, right, No, they were not. Those were two
(09:03):
that that he had claimed and youknow, but he'd also you know,
it was interesting for me to findout also that what you said about him
leaving I think like fifty percent ofhis estate or wealth to this feel good.
What was it the feel good thatJames Brown I feel good? Trust
yeah, and I took it wasmore than that. And I mean it
(09:24):
was everything except his personal belongings andme. And so was that worth who
knows? And and so there's aquestion what the estate was worth. And
I got to tell you when hedied, it wasn't worth much because me
as you know, you know artistsand particularly musicians, I mean, they
sell their catalog of copyrighted work andthat's where they and they sell that and
(09:48):
then they spend that and you know, they make their money, you know,
doing concerts. And James Brown andyou know he was doing shows up
until he died. I mean,that's how we made money. And he
was spending it as fast as hewas getting it. What the wealth of
his estate turns out to be issomething called reversionary rights under the Federal Copyright
(10:11):
Statue. Believe it or not,someone an artist cannot permanently convey their interest
in their copyrighted works. It's onlygood for so many years, and after
that those years passed, I cantell you whether it reverts back to the
artist or to his beneficiaries. Andso that is where the wealth is and
and then the estate beneficiaries can thenmarket those copyright materials and sell them again.
(10:37):
And so there was wild fluctuations onhow much of the state was worth,
whether it was worth you know,a million, three million, or
one hundred million, and I gotone hundred million, which sounded like crazy.
But also, you know what thatdoesn't take into account aside from what
you just said, Jim, isthat a lot of artists, including James
(11:00):
Round, often get taken advantage ofby their representatives, by their money people,
by their entertainment lawyers. All thesepeople want a piece of the person.
And one of the things the showhighlights is that James Brown sort of
wanted to get out of the South, felt like he's enslaved to these people,
(11:22):
and wanted to move to New York. And a lot of it had
to do with his lawyer and Ithink an accountant who somehow ended up with
a deal that they're supposed to getlike fifty percent of his estate. I
don't know if that ended up happeningor not. I mean, they were
removed, but the two individuals onewas a lawyer, one was his financial
(11:46):
advisor. But so that the trustwas set up and they were the trustees
of the trust, so they wouldcontrol all the money and get management fees
from that and that's what and sothat was sort of the undue influenced claim.
Here's a quick side note. Thelawyer who did this estate plan for
James Brown is serving time in prisonfor murder. He's doing thirty years because
(12:13):
he got drunk one night when hiswife was out of town, went to
a strip club, took his clothesoff, He got kicked out of the
strip club, drives through the parkinglot, shoes through the door, and
kills a guy. And he wasa prominent lawyer in South Carolina and now
he is doing uh thirty years inprison. And that's his lawyer. That
was James Brown's lawyer who did theestate My god, he does know at
(12:37):
the strip club you're not supposed totake your clothes off, right. I
think Chris Rock was that. ChrisRock says there's only champagne in the champagne
room, and that's hilarious. Andone of them, I think maybe the
accountant, I don't know, butthey had actually they did time uh on
(13:01):
adding embezzled some of the money.Uh well, yeah, so there's a
lot of shade around around that,and then back to the people that were
blowing up your phone claiming to beJames Brown's offspring. I mean, he
had said at some point, mychildren aren't getting shit, essentially in so
many words, like they're not gettingshit. Uh I'm you know, this
(13:22):
is where my money's going. Andso then all these people are coming out.
I mean, Hope was saying likeshe was at your office, uh,
you know, interning that summer andyour phone was being blown up by
people saying that they're his kids.I'm really interested about this one woman who
who apparently called the Doctor phil Showoffering to take a DNA test to prove
(13:43):
she's Brown's daughter. And then sheeven came to you with the show idea
that she wanted you to get whatwas kind about. So Doctor phill Show
called me one day wanting to inviteLauranda Pettit on the show to talk about
you know what it's like me growingup with a celebrity of ad and and
she knew that James Brown was herdad. I mean, and so did
(14:03):
Nicole, but you know, heand she met Laurna had met James Brown
a number of times. Laronto's motherworked for James Brown, and it was
sort of like, you know,would take care of him, take care
of his wardrobe and stuff, andand so and everyone knew that LaRonda was
a child of James Brown. Noone knew much about Nicole, but anyway,
(14:24):
and and and Loronda was a bigpersonality, looked just like James Brown.
And so whenever they would do showsor interviews, I mean, Lorondo
would always be photographed because she lookedso much like him. And so doctor
Phil calls one day, his showrunnerdoes and wants Laurando to come on,
and Lorondo'll be happy to go on, but she wanted money, and Doctor
(14:45):
Phil's show they weren't about paying money, so that into that. But but
her show idea, though, wasthat that she was interviewed in Rolling Stone
magazine and she was trying to pitcha show is it was like that modeled
after Survivor, and she was calledit DNA Island and where all the people
who claimed that they were all springsof James Brown would go on an island,
(15:09):
isolated island somewhere and and everyone takea DNA test and and each week,
you know, you'd get the resultsfrom somebody and then if they weren't
DNA positive, then they'd get kickedoff the island. She called it DNA
island. And yeah, but anyway, so yeah, and and so just
(15:31):
briefly about Nicole. She's a wonderfulperson. She's a Canadian citizen. And
it was really important for her toestablish paternity so that her children would be
US citizens and she would be UScitizen, because that had never been established.
And that's really what we tried todo for her, and we were
able to accomplish that. But butNicole's mother was a beautiful Caucasian woman living
in uh Vancouver. And and JamesBrown did a concert up there, and
(15:56):
she was she met him backstage andthen next thing you know, she she's
on a plane with James Brown travelingaround the United States. And then he
kicked her out about somewhere around SanAntonio. And and she makes her way
back to Vancouver, and she's pregnantand she has James Brown's child and and
(16:17):
there was some litigation. He paidsome money maybe you know, twenty five
fifty thousand dollars back then. Butbut and and and Nicole was a wonderful
person, great voice. She shewas aspiring singer and but anyway her but
her day job, she was afederal probation officer and and really really first
(16:37):
class. Yea, I guess thetalent and you know, James Brown.
I meant to say this early onit really, I mean, when you
think about it, he's beyond alegend because generation after generation borrows from his
music. I mean, you youknow, forget Michael Jackson, there's Usher,
there's Bruno Mars like you know II I learned so much through researching
(17:00):
for the show how much he hasinfluenced music that is, you know,
from today. So yeah, hewas he was a whole other level.
I want to who died? Youknow, on Christmas Day? A big
thing that he would do would wouldbe hand out turkeys for Christmas. And
(17:22):
and and I remember that, youknow, him dying learning about it.
But he was handing out turkeys.It was cold, rainy, he was
I think he was around in Atlanta. And then then he came down with
you know, the flu or pneumoniaand and and he died of congestive heart
failure, you know, and veryquickly, very quickly. No, it
wasn't a healthy guy. And hewas he well right, Actually, I
(17:44):
want to jump in if I maysee, because I'm just curious where the
conspiracy theory is coming in here,because everything you're saying, Jim, I
feel like, has a big allegedin front of an alleged heart attack happened
too quickly as a conspiracy, Likehave you heard of the conspiracy? I
had no idea. Yeah I didn'teither, but I can't dismiss it.
(18:04):
And I'm very curious if Jim hearsme out what he thinks is that you
know for years, I mean,I'm like Jim, I thought, yeah,
he died in a hospital room congestiveheart failure, but as it turns
out, his family doctor believed thathe's going to make it out of the
hospital like he was on the men'sand a nurse at some point had said
(18:25):
that she saw two men walking.She basically caught them leaving the hospital room
his hospital room, but that theyhad come in when nobody else was there
with Brown, and she found itvery suspicious, and they believed that somebody
overdosed him through his IV. Itmight sound far fetched, but the interesting
(18:47):
thing is Yama, his biological daughter, who stood to gain I don't know
three point eight million dollars or whatever. She refused an autopsy, so there
was no author topsy done, andthen you know there was there was all
these people like we just talked about, and Jim was saying, who wanted
(19:07):
a piece of James Brown? Youknow, his wealth, and so we've
got you know, money's always amotive. Yama's kind of doing this weird
thing with the autopsy, the nursessaying she saw two men just before he
was pronounced dead, the doctor sayinghe was totally on the men's he was
supposed to get out. So theperson at the helm of this conspiracy theory
that Brown was murdered and not youknow, did not die by natural cause
(19:33):
was Yama's ex husband, Darren Lumar. And he's kind of a shady character,
like, you know, he's gonethrough life claiming to be this I
don't know, successful, wealthy guy, and everyone thinks that's who he is.
But behind all of that, hehad a lot like swindled, you
know, a pastor out of likeone hundred and forty thousand dollars. Like
(19:56):
he was just shady and he hadhis own set of problems, and there
was domestic violence with Yama, whichled to a divorce, and so there's
there's multiple conspiracy theories. There's theconspiracy theory there he's the guy though,
that was the one kind of alwayssaying that there's no way James Brian James
Brown died of a heart attack rightin his mouth everywhere exactly and shortly after
(20:18):
James Brown died, whatever you thinkkilled him, Uhlumar in Atlanta was drives
into his garage and is shot downand dies, and there's physical evidence,
there's DNA all that stuff in thegarage. There's witnesses, the neighbors that
you know, identify the car,and you know, the the person looked
like whatnot. All this is inthe episode, So you got to watch.
(20:41):
But and then it's like, okay, well wait a second, did
did someone was it? Was itsomeone who was after Lumar and I had
nothing to do with Brown? Oris this someone? Uh? Because of
the conspiracy theory that Lumar was spreadingabout Brown getting murder or may have been
after Lumar. We don't know,We don't know, and that that's really
(21:03):
kind of the point of these,uh these episodes is that they leave the
true crime fan with sort of thisyou know, all the questions, right,
it's more questions than answers, andthat's the whole fascination. But what
do you think, Jeb, Imean, you you really think that for
short, no autopsy and you're saying, yeah, he died of a I
(21:26):
mean what you're saying I did herethrough as as Lorondo kind of became united
with the family. I mean thatwas being said. But you know,
I didn't really give it much credence. And normally a coroner would do an
autopsy if the corner believed there's suspiciouscircumstances around the death and it wasn't just
(21:48):
death by natural causes. And butwhen the coroner doesn't, you know,
request an autopsy, the family isgiven that option. But but I can
tell you there are cultural preferences,particularly in the South, about an autopsy.
I mean, not many families wantto have their loved ones desecrated on
a on an autopsy table. Imean autopsy is I mean they you know,
(22:11):
they they really stripped the body anddig in and out and take the
head off and and then sew itback up and put it in a casket.
And then you know, African Americanfunerals are are our homecoming events and
and they go home for days andthey have open caskets and they gather around
(22:32):
the casket. So the fact thatYama didn't ask for an autopsy doesn't really
concern me at all. I mean, I've been to some beautiful homecoming funerals
where you know, everyone's around thecasket and and it's always an open casket
everyone I've been to. So Idon't know how you have open casket after
an autopsy, but maybe there's away. Now that is a that is
(22:52):
a see. I'm so glad we'rehaving this discussion with you because it brings
another perspective to this that I madethe point on the show that a lot
of people refuse autopsy because it's invasive, you know. But you bring this
perspective of being in the South andhaving gone to African American funerals. This
(23:15):
is a whole thing that I've neverbeen to. One sounds really glorious.
It's a celebration, and it's celebrationand they going for hours. Yeah,
and that just that that brings awhole other perspective to the idea why people,
for innocuous reasons, uh, youknow, refuse autopsies. So if
(23:38):
you're not buying into Brown being murderedas opposed to dying of conjeser part failure.
Then there's no second part to this. Where do you think that his
murder was related to Loom? Imean, Lumar was definitely murdered, But
you know, there's always been thisquestion of is are the two that's related
or not? Because they were sothey happened so quickly one after another other,
(24:03):
other than the proximity of the twodeaths occurring so quickly together, and
the fact that this Lumar guy wasconstantly talking about a possible conspiracy. Were
there any other pieces of evidence orindicators that these could be connected or is
it really just kind of those twothings? Just those two things and the
fact that you know, she washe was divorced from Yama. Yama wanted
(24:26):
a piece of the estate, youknow, so it was like, was
he doing this to throw Yama underthe bus, that she's behind a hit
job on her dad? I mean, you know, there was all that,
But in terms of you know,not aside from refusing the autopsy,
the theory that Brown died or waskilled as opposed to or overdosed as opposed
to die of natural cause, it'sreally that nurse that kind of raised a
(24:49):
red flag. Who are these guyslike, this is James Brown in the
hospital. You don't just like walkin and out of his room. Why
were they there? And you know, and because that together with the family
lawyer, I mean with the familydoctor who's saying, you know, he's
doing well, but you know,my dad died of a heart attack and
he was on the men's in thehospital and everyone thought he's getting out that
(25:10):
Monday, and that Sunday he hada reoccurrence and died. So you know,
Joe, Joe McCullough who was onour show at a heart attack this
week, he's doing fine, butyou know, it's it's it's a it's
a fleeting situation that can change.So the doctor can say, oh,
you're getting out, you're doing fine, and then something could happen. But
(25:30):
but there is this you know,the episode is definitely fascinating and it's focused
on this. So I want towell, I well agree. I mean
that James Brown's condition was not deathlyup until he died. I mean,
he was in the hospital with pneumoniaand then next thing you know, you
know, your reports are James Browndied, and it was, you know,
(25:51):
I mean it shook, it shookthe South, shook shook the music
industry. I mean he was.He was bigger than life for sure.
Do you do you know if themoney that he had set aside for that,
I feel good trust that actually wentto that it is now now that's
go gosh that the state litigation isstill going on. A real interesting development
(26:15):
early on. So so you hadthe the heirs, Yama, her brothers
and sisters, and then then youhad his current wife, Tammy, and
then then her son, and theyare all attacking the estate plan. They're
saying that it was a result ofundue influence because these managers now have control
(26:38):
over this trust. And believe ornot, the State of South Carolina comes
in and and for charitable trust,they staying in the shoes they represent the
trust for the benefit of you know, the charities. And and so Alan
Wilson's office, the Attorneys General ofSouth Carolina handled that end of it.
And and and there were a lotof lawyers, a lot of parties,
(27:02):
And after about a year or so, they all got together and they reached
a settlement. And the settlement essentiallywas the family members and the wife and
they would all get more than whatJames Brown intended to leave them. The
trust would get less than what JamesBrown intended to leave it. But then
(27:25):
instead of the managers, the AttorneyGeneral's Office would be in control of the
trust. And the former trustees appealedthat to the Southline Supreme Court, and
in really a very scathing opinion,the Supreme Court said that James Brown was
of sound mind when he when hemade this estate plan these it wasn't up
(27:48):
to the state or any any ofthese proposed beneficiaries to upset it based on
you know, they just didn't likeit, and and they they said that
the state overstepped their bounds and togo shiating the settlement. And so the
Supreme Court threw out the settlement andsaid, you've got to honor James Brown's
wishes. And so to my knowledgeto this day, it is being funded,
(28:10):
is being funded with these copyright valuablecopyright reversionary interest and and that kids
are getting scholarships. How how longdid this, lady Sarah, I still
get notices from the court. Imean the cases are closed, I still
get notices because there was a specialadministrator appointed, and you know, the
(28:33):
special administrator is still spending money andhaving the file things with the court.
So I mean, you know it'sstill going on, still going on.
And in the meantime, you know, Lrono Pettitt died unfortunately a couple of
years into it, so she passedaway. But yeah, but her daughter
was a grandchild who qualified with qualifiedfor scholarship money. That's that's another thing.
(28:57):
It was interesting James Brown left scholarshipmoney to his grandchildren who had not
gotten to higher education age, butnot to his children who who he had
provided education opportunities. And you know, believe or not, I mean James
Brown valued education. I mean youwouldn't because he didn't have an education and
(29:18):
he thought that was the way out, and he wanted to have as many
kids as you know, opportunity toget education as possible. That's right.
I also feel like he he hadI mean, obviously he had talent,
which was a gift, but Ialways I also think that he was you
know, he didn't want to justgive free money to his kids. He
wanted to be able to you know, put it to good to a good
(29:41):
cause. You know, you don'tget to just live off of daddy because
daddy made money. You know,I also got that sense from it.
But I want to I want toleave with this, you guys your favorite
James Brown song. I'm going tostart with Matt Oh, okay, Well,
let's see. Mine's actually kind ofa two part answer because I'll say
(30:02):
the first knowledge of James Brown wasnot the song Living in America, but
the weird al version Living with aHernia, which I loved as an eight
year old, and that was Iwas like, oh wait, weird I'll
make songs on are real songs.So I think that was the first actual
James Brown song I heard, wasthe real version of that song. But
(30:22):
my go to favorite is Papa's Gota Brand New Bag. It's just one
of the songs that makes me happyevery time. I know it's kind of
like the pedestrian answer, but thehorn section is just it just gets me
every time. So that's my personalfavorite. Jim, what about You?
I mean, obviously I feel goodand the title is I Got You.
I feel good. I mean,you know, it's no better song than
(30:45):
that in my book? Can yousing it? Sure? No? I
can't. I one thing I can'tsinging. My favorite is America is my
home. It's a spoken song,one that most people don't really haven't heard
(31:10):
or don't know about. But itresonates with me because of the lyrics,
because I'm an immigrant, and hetalks about even when America is so divisive,
it is still the best country inthe world, and he sort of
I think he ends the song withlike, name me any other country you
can start out as a shoeshine boy, which he was, and then end
(31:32):
up shaking hands with the president.And I just think that it's it's so
perfect for the times right now.Right we're living in such a divisive you
know time politically and in always,and he was such a great figure of
the Civil rights era besides his talent, and it just resonates with me because,
you know, my family came herebecause it was the land of opportunity,
(31:56):
you know, And I mean,we still have to work our ass
off, but we we didn't havethe the James Brown House. But but
but America the great, you know, and so America is my home is
my favorite song. So I beforewe let me give a plug to they
did a Chad Chad Boseman Chad withBuzman, who is from Anderson, South
(32:17):
Carolina, who who passed away earlyalso was a great actor. But he
played James Brown in a in ain a movie about the James Brown's wife.
I can tell you the name ofit top of my head, but
he played a great James Brown andit's a great movie and I would recommend
it to anyone who's listening to this. Well I'll pull it up here,
but Chad Chad Boseman played James Brownand it was get on Up, Get
(32:44):
on Up. Yeah, yeah,great right now. Yeah, it's also
good. It's like I feel likeJames Brown is uh and he is on
my on my playlist. But Sundaymorning kind of jam you know, like
like moving around the house, wasgetting your coffee on chilling you know.
Anyway, Jim, Yeah, watchit if you're intered in James Brown.
(33:07):
It's a great story about his lifegrowing up. How what the conditions were,
you know, he his dad lefthim, His mom, you know,
was alcoholic and didn't care for himmuch, and then she would show
up at Tom's during his career andhe would give her money. But you
know, it was he had arough childhood, but he was very He
had a family that took him inlike a lot of entertainers learned to sing
(33:30):
in the gospel choirs and got tostart there and amazing, fascinating story.
So, Jim, this was sucha great conversation because, uh, you
kind of you know, I don'tknow, everyone's come to know you as
Alec Burdocks attorney and it's like,there's so much more to you and uh,
and you're just not you know.It's funny because I bring up stuff
(33:52):
to Matt, I bring stuff toJohn. I'm like, oh, you
know this thing, and He'll belike, oh, that was not a
big deal. I just was likedoing this with this case and it was
like not man, I'm like,wait what you know? And this is
kind of that kind of situation.It's like James Brown's estate is not just
any other state and it was sotied in with the story that Invescation Discoveries
(34:15):
featuring in the season. And yetyou know, the perspective that you brought
to what the episode highlights is verydifferent. And I think that our viewers
are listeners and those of Invesigation Discoveryare going to really appreciate it. So
I thank you, my partner incrime, for sharing your experience here.
(34:37):
Yeah, I want to jump onand add to that if I may,
which is to say that we're alwaysbringing a real perspective when it comes to
this podcast, The Presumption. Soif you're listening to this for the very
first time, you're a true crimefan and you want to hear about real
cases from real veteran lawyers and actuallyreally hear about how the work is actually
(34:57):
done. I personally, I'm nota lawyer. I I've learned so much
just from listening to YouTube over thelast you know, thirty plus episodes that
we've released. So again, ifthis is your first time listening, please
subscribe to our podcast. We're calledThe Presumption and at the Presumption is our
handle on all the social media pages, including YouTube as well YouTube dot com
(35:19):
slash at the Presumption. You cango there and watch the conversations, including
this one that we've just finished uptaping, so I just want to throw
that out. Great job, Sarahand Jim as always, and Jim until
next week. I feel good.It's okay for this episode too, but we rest
Hello everyone, and welcome to thePresumption. I'm Sarah and I'm here with
my esteemed partner in crime, JimGriffin. Hey, Sarah, Hey.
Jim and Matt Fondalier are a wonderfulproducer. He Matt Hey. Hey.
So today it's just us, whichis always really fun, and it's always
extra fun when Jim shares these storiesthat he just sort of drops like a
(00:47):
random like you know, we hadhis daughter on not too long ago,
Hope. And suddenly, just verycasually, it came up that, like,
you know, Jim was involved inthe aftermath of James Brown's death in
some way, and and I'm like, wait a second. It dawned on
me that I just recently did thisepisode of Death by Fame, which is
(01:07):
a show on investigation Discovery, andI'm you know, honored to be the
legal host of the show and theambassador of the show. And we did
a whole episode on James Brown that'sgoing to air this season, focused on
more about his death. We don'tknow if it's a murder or not,
but his son in law's murder,and the idea was, you know,
(01:30):
we went into a lot about hiswealth. People that wanted a piece of
his estate. And so it turnsout that Jim was very much connected to
the estate and in the capacity ofan attorney. And so that's what the
(01:51):
conversation is going to be about today. And by May, I just wanted
to jump in and just say congratulationsto you, by by the way,
for making it to season two ofDeath by Fame, And for people who
aren't already regularly watching the show.It airs Monday night, nine pm Eastern
eighth Central on Investigation Discovery and italso streams on Discovery Plus. So I
(02:16):
guess just to start, I'm curiousfrom you guys, you know, are
really from you, Sarah. First, you know, what is James Brown's
connection to this show? And aswe start to dive into these conspiracies,
I know, Jim, you representedseveral of the I'm guessing many children.
I don't want to jump to conclusionshere, but I get the feeling,
you know, got the rock starvibes going. So yeah, I mean,
(02:39):
Sarah, can you maybe kick itoff here and explain a little bit
more about what's going on? Yeah, so just generally about Death by Fame.
You know, it actually is avery interesting show that focuses on how
Hollywood is not glitz and glamour,that there's this dark, sinister side to
Hollywood, and that people come heremy town thinking that they're going to make
(02:59):
it, but then they end upwith addiction, affliction, dangers, and
even death that comes with fame.So it's the dark side of fame.
And why James Brown fit into thisseason was you know, we always talk
about we don't need motive for murderor any crime, but money is often
(03:21):
a motive for crime, specifically murder. And so there's all these questions around
how James Brown died. Was itreally of congestive heart failure this Christmas of
twenty twenty oh two, I think, or twenty oh six, I'm sorry,
twenty oh six, or was ita plot to kill him? There
was a witness in the hospital,which will get into et cetera. So
(03:46):
James Brown is one of many interestingepisodes. There's one about jam Master j
run DMC's DJ and a whole slewof other stories. Eight episodes. So
I want to toss it over toJim. To your point, Matt,
you represented the estate against claimants,but apparently it was like two of his
(04:08):
biological daughters tell us a little bitabout how you got involved with the estate.
Yeah. So now I did notrepresent the estate. So I represented
two of his daughters that were bornout of wedlock and and and one one
was named Lronda Pettitt, she wasout of Houston. And the other one
was Nicole Parish, who whose Canadiancitizen, lived in Vancouver. And and
(04:32):
when James Brown died, his hismanagers knew that there was gonna be a
big fight over his estate because whathe left everything except for his personal belongings
and the house to a trust.And it was called the James Brown Feel
Good Trust. And the beneficiaries ofthe trust were underprivileged kids South Carolina and
(04:57):
Georgia who and for for scholarships highereducation. James Brown believed that education was
the way out of poverty. Hedidn't have a higher education. He was
extremely talented and hardest working man inshow business. And he provided the children
that that you know, he livedwith, with education opportunities. And that's
(05:17):
he thought that was enough. Andand so you know, what wealth he
had was going to be passed tothis charitable trust to give out scholarships and
and so and that was going tobe you know, challenged. He had
had a wife that had been marriedafterwards, and there was some issues was
(05:38):
it a legitimate marriage. Her namewas Tammy Ray and and Tammy had been
married to to, you know,some foreign national, whether it was an
arranged marriage so he can get UScitizenship. But it was kind of weird
and that was never annult And thenthey had a child, and and but
anyway, during all that, peopleknew that there were other children there and
(06:00):
without a doubt, and people weregoing to come forward and say, I'm
you know, James Brown's my daddy. And so what they did was they
got a pathologist who actually turns outto be the wife of a federal judge,
and they harvested some tissue from histhigh, and the federal judge and
(06:21):
his wife drove that tissue to alab corp in North Carolina to maintain the
chain of custody and so that anyonewho claimed that they were a child of
James Brown would take a DNA test, send it to lab Core and they
would test it against his DNA.And you know, was he your daddy?
(06:42):
And and so these two women,Lerondo approached me first and then Nicole
came afterwards. They both had positiveDNA test, and so to the extent
that there were benefits coming out ofthe whole estate fight, you know,
we wanted them to share those benefits. And so, you know, we
filed acclaim against the estate saying,you know, we were children of James
(07:05):
Brown, we were not named inthe will. We we don't know whether
he knew where we were his childrenor not. And so if if the
will is going to get busted,then you know, we're entitled to a
part of it. And and that'sthat's that's you know that that was my
involvement. What what was really interestingI had, you know, I'd filed
(07:28):
that paperwork Sarah and Matt in probatecourt in Acon County, South Carolina,
which is where he you know,he died. He he lived in a
small, really small community called BeachIsland, but he had the biggest house
in Beach Island, and but itwas in South Carolina. Gusta, Georgia
was his home. And and soI I go, I come back to
(07:53):
Columbia from Washington, d C.Where I had just pled a guy guilty
for campaign find that's violations involving nationaland federal campaigns. And it was a
big deal. And we were tryingto keep it quiet and and I showed
it at my office and flew infrom the airport and and my secretary says,
the BBC's on the phone for you. I didn't say all And and
(08:18):
I'm thinking the BBC's calling about thiscampaign finance pola that I just did.
And now they're calling about James Brownand my client Lorondo Pettitt and uh.
And it just went from now thatthat was the hottest story at the time
about James Brown's estate and and andand and and you know, I tell
(08:39):
you a little bit about more aboutLauranda and and Nicole if you want to
hear it. But yeah, andit's in a minute. I have a
question that a couple of questions.There were two of his daughters, uh
that that you know, this cameup in my research for the show that
had fought to be the representatives ofhis estate. Those were not the two
that you represented, right, No, they were not. Those were two
(09:03):
that that he had claimed and youknow, but he'd also you know,
it was interesting for me to findout also that what you said about him
leaving I think like fifty percent ofhis estate or wealth to this feel good.
What was it the feel good thatJames Brown I feel good? Trust
yeah, and I took it wasmore than that. And I mean it
(09:24):
was everything except his personal belongings andme. And so was that worth who
knows? And and so there's aquestion what the estate was worth. And
I got to tell you when hedied, it wasn't worth much because me
as you know, you know artistsand particularly musicians, I mean, they
sell their catalog of copyrighted work andthat's where they and they sell that and
(09:48):
then they spend that and you know, they make their money, you know,
doing concerts. And James Brown andyou know he was doing shows up
until he died. I mean,that's how we made money. And he
was spending it as fast as hewas getting it. What the wealth of
his estate turns out to be issomething called reversionary rights under the Federal Copyright
(10:11):
Statue. Believe it or not,someone an artist cannot permanently convey their interest
in their copyrighted works. It's onlygood for so many years, and after
that those years passed, I cantell you whether it reverts back to the
artist or to his beneficiaries. Andso that is where the wealth is and
and then the estate beneficiaries can thenmarket those copyright materials and sell them again.
(10:37):
And so there was wild fluctuations onhow much of the state was worth,
whether it was worth you know,a million, three million, or
one hundred million, and I gotone hundred million, which sounded like crazy.
But also, you know what thatdoesn't take into account aside from what
you just said, Jim, isthat a lot of artists, including James
(11:00):
Round, often get taken advantage ofby their representatives, by their money people,
by their entertainment lawyers. All thesepeople want a piece of the person.
And one of the things the showhighlights is that James Brown sort of
wanted to get out of the South, felt like he's enslaved to these people,
(11:22):
and wanted to move to New York. And a lot of it had
to do with his lawyer and Ithink an accountant who somehow ended up with
a deal that they're supposed to getlike fifty percent of his estate. I
don't know if that ended up happeningor not. I mean, they were
removed, but the two individuals onewas a lawyer, one was his financial
(11:46):
advisor. But so that the trustwas set up and they were the trustees
of the trust, so they wouldcontrol all the money and get management fees
from that and that's what and sothat was sort of the undue influenced claim.
Here's a quick side note. Thelawyer who did this estate plan for
James Brown is serving time in prisonfor murder. He's doing thirty years because
(12:13):
he got drunk one night when hiswife was out of town, went to
a strip club, took his clothesoff, He got kicked out of the
strip club, drives through the parkinglot, shoes through the door, and
kills a guy. And he wasa prominent lawyer in South Carolina and now
he is doing uh thirty years inprison. And that's his lawyer. That
was James Brown's lawyer who did theestate My god, he does know at
(12:37):
the strip club you're not supposed totake your clothes off, right. I
think Chris Rock was that. ChrisRock says there's only champagne in the champagne
room, and that's hilarious. Andone of them, I think maybe the
accountant, I don't know, butthey had actually they did time uh on
(13:01):
adding embezzled some of the money.Uh well, yeah, so there's a
lot of shade around around that,and then back to the people that were
blowing up your phone claiming to beJames Brown's offspring. I mean, he
had said at some point, mychildren aren't getting shit, essentially in so
many words, like they're not gettingshit. Uh I'm you know, this
(13:22):
is where my money's going. Andso then all these people are coming out.
I mean, Hope was saying likeshe was at your office, uh,
you know, interning that summer andyour phone was being blown up by
people saying that they're his kids.I'm really interested about this one woman who
who apparently called the Doctor phil Showoffering to take a DNA test to prove
(13:43):
she's Brown's daughter. And then sheeven came to you with the show idea
that she wanted you to get whatwas kind about. So Doctor phill Show
called me one day wanting to inviteLauranda Pettit on the show to talk about
you know what it's like me growingup with a celebrity of ad and and
she knew that James Brown was herdad. I mean, and so did
(14:03):
Nicole, but you know, heand she met Laurna had met James Brown
a number of times. Laronto's motherworked for James Brown, and it was
sort of like, you know,would take care of him, take care
of his wardrobe and stuff, andand so and everyone knew that LaRonda was
a child of James Brown. Noone knew much about Nicole, but anyway,
(14:24):
and and and Loronda was a bigpersonality, looked just like James Brown.
And so whenever they would do showsor interviews, I mean, Lorondo
would always be photographed because she lookedso much like him. And so doctor
Phil calls one day, his showrunnerdoes and wants Laurando to come on,
and Lorondo'll be happy to go on, but she wanted money, and Doctor
(14:45):
Phil's show they weren't about paying money, so that into that. But but
her show idea, though, wasthat that she was interviewed in Rolling Stone
magazine and she was trying to pitcha show is it was like that modeled
after Survivor, and she was calledit DNA Island and where all the people
who claimed that they were all springsof James Brown would go on an island,
(15:09):
isolated island somewhere and and everyone takea DNA test and and each week,
you know, you'd get the resultsfrom somebody and then if they weren't
DNA positive, then they'd get kickedoff the island. She called it DNA
island. And yeah, but anyway, so yeah, and and so just
(15:31):
briefly about Nicole. She's a wonderfulperson. She's a Canadian citizen. And
it was really important for her toestablish paternity so that her children would be
US citizens and she would be UScitizen, because that had never been established.
And that's really what we tried todo for her, and we were
able to accomplish that. But butNicole's mother was a beautiful Caucasian woman living
in uh Vancouver. And and JamesBrown did a concert up there, and
(15:56):
she was she met him backstage andthen next thing you know, she she's
on a plane with James Brown travelingaround the United States. And then he
kicked her out about somewhere around SanAntonio. And and she makes her way
back to Vancouver, and she's pregnantand she has James Brown's child and and
(16:17):
there was some litigation. He paidsome money maybe you know, twenty five
fifty thousand dollars back then. Butbut and and and Nicole was a wonderful
person, great voice. She shewas aspiring singer and but anyway her but
her day job, she was afederal probation officer and and really really first
(16:37):
class. Yea, I guess thetalent and you know, James Brown.
I meant to say this early onit really, I mean, when you
think about it, he's beyond alegend because generation after generation borrows from his
music. I mean, you youknow, forget Michael Jackson, there's Usher,
there's Bruno Mars like you know II I learned so much through researching
(17:00):
for the show how much he hasinfluenced music that is, you know,
from today. So yeah, hewas he was a whole other level.
I want to who died? Youknow, on Christmas Day? A big
thing that he would do would wouldbe hand out turkeys for Christmas. And
(17:22):
and and I remember that, youknow, him dying learning about it.
But he was handing out turkeys.It was cold, rainy, he was
I think he was around in Atlanta. And then then he came down with
you know, the flu or pneumoniaand and and he died of congestive heart
failure, you know, and veryquickly, very quickly. No, it
wasn't a healthy guy. And hewas he well right, Actually, I
(17:44):
want to jump in if I maysee, because I'm just curious where the
conspiracy theory is coming in here,because everything you're saying, Jim, I
feel like, has a big allegedin front of an alleged heart attack happened
too quickly as a conspiracy, Likehave you heard of the conspiracy? I
had no idea. Yeah I didn'teither, but I can't dismiss it.
(18:04):
And I'm very curious if Jim hearsme out what he thinks is that you
know for years, I mean,I'm like Jim, I thought, yeah,
he died in a hospital room congestiveheart failure, but as it turns
out, his family doctor believed thathe's going to make it out of the
hospital like he was on the men'sand a nurse at some point had said
(18:25):
that she saw two men walking.She basically caught them leaving the hospital room
his hospital room, but that theyhad come in when nobody else was there
with Brown, and she found itvery suspicious, and they believed that somebody
overdosed him through his IV. Itmight sound far fetched, but the interesting
(18:47):
thing is Yama, his biological daughter, who stood to gain I don't know
three point eight million dollars or whatever. She refused an autopsy, so there
was no author topsy done, andthen you know there was there was all
these people like we just talked about, and Jim was saying, who wanted
(19:07):
a piece of James Brown? Youknow, his wealth, and so we've
got you know, money's always amotive. Yama's kind of doing this weird
thing with the autopsy, the nursessaying she saw two men just before he
was pronounced dead, the doctor sayinghe was totally on the men's he was
supposed to get out. So theperson at the helm of this conspiracy theory
that Brown was murdered and not youknow, did not die by natural cause
(19:33):
was Yama's ex husband, Darren Lumar. And he's kind of a shady character,
like, you know, he's gonethrough life claiming to be this I
don't know, successful, wealthy guy, and everyone thinks that's who he is.
But behind all of that, hehad a lot like swindled, you
know, a pastor out of likeone hundred and forty thousand dollars. Like
(19:56):
he was just shady and he hadhis own set of problems, and there
was domestic violence with Yama, whichled to a divorce, and so there's
there's multiple conspiracy theories. There's theconspiracy theory there he's the guy though,
that was the one kind of alwayssaying that there's no way James Brian James
Brown died of a heart attack rightin his mouth everywhere exactly and shortly after
(20:18):
James Brown died, whatever you thinkkilled him, Uhlumar in Atlanta was drives
into his garage and is shot downand dies, and there's physical evidence,
there's DNA all that stuff in thegarage. There's witnesses, the neighbors that
you know, identify the car,and you know, the the person looked
like whatnot. All this is inthe episode, So you got to watch.
(20:41):
But and then it's like, okay, well wait a second, did
did someone was it? Was itsomeone who was after Lumar and I had
nothing to do with Brown? Oris this someone? Uh? Because of
the conspiracy theory that Lumar was spreadingabout Brown getting murder or may have been
after Lumar. We don't know,We don't know, and that that's really
(21:03):
kind of the point of these,uh these episodes is that they leave the
true crime fan with sort of thisyou know, all the questions, right,
it's more questions than answers, andthat's the whole fascination. But what
do you think, Jeb, Imean, you you really think that for
short, no autopsy and you're saying, yeah, he died of a I
(21:26):
mean what you're saying I did herethrough as as Lorondo kind of became united
with the family. I mean thatwas being said. But you know,
I didn't really give it much credence. And normally a coroner would do an
autopsy if the corner believed there's suspiciouscircumstances around the death and it wasn't just
(21:48):
death by natural causes. And butwhen the coroner doesn't, you know,
request an autopsy, the family isgiven that option. But but I can
tell you there are cultural preferences,particularly in the South, about an autopsy.
I mean, not many families wantto have their loved ones desecrated on
a on an autopsy table. Imean autopsy is I mean they you know,
(22:11):
they they really stripped the body anddig in and out and take the
head off and and then sew itback up and put it in a casket.
And then you know, African Americanfunerals are are our homecoming events and
and they go home for days andthey have open caskets and they gather around
(22:32):
the casket. So the fact thatYama didn't ask for an autopsy doesn't really
concern me at all. I mean, I've been to some beautiful homecoming funerals
where you know, everyone's around thecasket and and it's always an open casket
everyone I've been to. So Idon't know how you have open casket after
an autopsy, but maybe there's away. Now that is a that is
(22:52):
a see. I'm so glad we'rehaving this discussion with you because it brings
another perspective to this that I madethe point on the show that a lot
of people refuse autopsy because it's invasive, you know. But you bring this
perspective of being in the South andhaving gone to African American funerals. This
(23:15):
is a whole thing that I've neverbeen to. One sounds really glorious.
It's a celebration, and it's celebrationand they going for hours. Yeah,
and that just that that brings awhole other perspective to the idea why people,
for innocuous reasons, uh, youknow, refuse autopsies. So if
(23:38):
you're not buying into Brown being murderedas opposed to dying of conjeser part failure.
Then there's no second part to this. Where do you think that his
murder was related to Loom? Imean, Lumar was definitely murdered, But
you know, there's always been thisquestion of is are the two that's related
or not? Because they were sothey happened so quickly one after another other,
(24:03):
other than the proximity of the twodeaths occurring so quickly together, and
the fact that this Lumar guy wasconstantly talking about a possible conspiracy. Were
there any other pieces of evidence orindicators that these could be connected or is
it really just kind of those twothings? Just those two things and the
fact that you know, she washe was divorced from Yama. Yama wanted
(24:26):
a piece of the estate, youknow, so it was like, was
he doing this to throw Yama underthe bus, that she's behind a hit
job on her dad? I mean, you know, there was all that,
But in terms of you know,not aside from refusing the autopsy,
the theory that Brown died or waskilled as opposed to or overdosed as opposed
to die of natural cause, it'sreally that nurse that kind of raised a
(24:49):
red flag. Who are these guyslike, this is James Brown in the
hospital. You don't just like walkin and out of his room. Why
were they there? And you know, and because that together with the family
lawyer, I mean with the familydoctor who's saying, you know, he's
doing well, but you know,my dad died of a heart attack and
he was on the men's in thehospital and everyone thought he's getting out that
(25:10):
Monday, and that Sunday he hada reoccurrence and died. So you know,
Joe, Joe McCullough who was onour show at a heart attack this
week, he's doing fine, butyou know, it's it's it's a it's
a fleeting situation that can change.So the doctor can say, oh,
you're getting out, you're doing fine, and then something could happen. But
(25:30):
but there is this you know,the episode is definitely fascinating and it's focused
on this. So I want towell, I well agree. I mean
that James Brown's condition was not deathlyup until he died. I mean,
he was in the hospital with pneumoniaand then next thing you know, you
know, your reports are James Browndied, and it was, you know,
(25:51):
I mean it shook, it shookthe South, shook shook the music
industry. I mean he was.He was bigger than life for sure.
Do you do you know if themoney that he had set aside for that,
I feel good trust that actually wentto that it is now now that's
go gosh that the state litigation isstill going on. A real interesting development
(26:15):
early on. So so you hadthe the heirs, Yama, her brothers
and sisters, and then then youhad his current wife, Tammy, and
then then her son, and theyare all attacking the estate plan. They're
saying that it was a result ofundue influence because these managers now have control
(26:38):
over this trust. And believe ornot, the State of South Carolina comes
in and and for charitable trust,they staying in the shoes they represent the
trust for the benefit of you know, the charities. And and so Alan
Wilson's office, the Attorneys General ofSouth Carolina handled that end of it.
And and and there were a lotof lawyers, a lot of parties,
(27:02):
And after about a year or so, they all got together and they reached
a settlement. And the settlement essentiallywas the family members and the wife and
they would all get more than whatJames Brown intended to leave them. The
trust would get less than what JamesBrown intended to leave it. But then
(27:25):
instead of the managers, the AttorneyGeneral's Office would be in control of the
trust. And the former trustees appealedthat to the Southline Supreme Court, and
in really a very scathing opinion,the Supreme Court said that James Brown was
of sound mind when he when hemade this estate plan these it wasn't up
(27:48):
to the state or any any ofthese proposed beneficiaries to upset it based on
you know, they just didn't likeit, and and they they said that
the state overstepped their bounds and togo shiating the settlement. And so the
Supreme Court threw out the settlement andsaid, you've got to honor James Brown's
wishes. And so to my knowledgeto this day, it is being funded,
(28:10):
is being funded with these copyright valuablecopyright reversionary interest and and that kids
are getting scholarships. How how longdid this, lady Sarah, I still
get notices from the court. Imean the cases are closed, I still
get notices because there was a specialadministrator appointed, and you know, the
(28:33):
special administrator is still spending money andhaving the file things with the court.
So I mean, you know it'sstill going on, still going on.
And in the meantime, you know, Lrono Pettitt died unfortunately a couple of
years into it, so she passedaway. But yeah, but her daughter
was a grandchild who qualified with qualifiedfor scholarship money. That's that's another thing.
(28:57):
It was interesting James Brown left scholarshipmoney to his grandchildren who had not
gotten to higher education age, butnot to his children who who he had
provided education opportunities. And you know, believe or not, I mean James
Brown valued education. I mean youwouldn't because he didn't have an education and
(29:18):
he thought that was the way out, and he wanted to have as many
kids as you know, opportunity toget education as possible. That's right.
I also feel like he he hadI mean, obviously he had talent,
which was a gift, but Ialways I also think that he was you
know, he didn't want to justgive free money to his kids. He
wanted to be able to you know, put it to good to a good
(29:41):
cause. You know, you don'tget to just live off of daddy because
daddy made money. You know,I also got that sense from it.
But I want to I want toleave with this, you guys your favorite
James Brown song. I'm going tostart with Matt Oh, okay, Well,
let's see. Mine's actually kind ofa two part answer because I'll say
(30:02):
the first knowledge of James Brown wasnot the song Living in America, but
the weird al version Living with aHernia, which I loved as an eight
year old, and that was Iwas like, oh wait, weird I'll
make songs on are real songs.So I think that was the first actual
James Brown song I heard, wasthe real version of that song. But
(30:22):
my go to favorite is Papa's Gota Brand New Bag. It's just one
of the songs that makes me happyevery time. I know it's kind of
like the pedestrian answer, but thehorn section is just it just gets me
every time. So that's my personalfavorite. Jim, what about You?
I mean, obviously I feel goodand the title is I Got You.
I feel good. I mean,you know, it's no better song than
(30:45):
that in my book? Can yousing it? Sure? No? I
can't. I one thing I can'tsinging. My favorite is America is my
home. It's a spoken song,one that most people don't really haven't heard
(31:10):
or don't know about. But itresonates with me because of the lyrics,
because I'm an immigrant, and hetalks about even when America is so divisive,
it is still the best country inthe world, and he sort of
I think he ends the song withlike, name me any other country you
can start out as a shoeshine boy, which he was, and then end
(31:32):
up shaking hands with the president.And I just think that it's it's so
perfect for the times right now.Right we're living in such a divisive you
know time politically and in always,and he was such a great figure of
the Civil rights era besides his talent, and it just resonates with me because,
you know, my family came herebecause it was the land of opportunity,
(31:56):
you know, And I mean,we still have to work our ass
off, but we we didn't havethe the James Brown House. But but
but America the great, you know, and so America is my home is
my favorite song. So I beforewe let me give a plug to they
did a Chad Chad Boseman Chad withBuzman, who is from Anderson, South
(32:17):
Carolina, who who passed away earlyalso was a great actor. But he
played James Brown in a in ain a movie about the James Brown's wife.
I can tell you the name ofit top of my head, but
he played a great James Brown andit's a great movie and I would recommend
it to anyone who's listening to this. Well I'll pull it up here,
but Chad Chad Boseman played James Brownand it was get on Up, Get
(32:44):
on Up. Yeah, yeah,great right now. Yeah, it's also
good. It's like I feel likeJames Brown is uh and he is on
my on my playlist. But Sundaymorning kind of jam you know, like
like moving around the house, wasgetting your coffee on chilling you know.
Anyway, Jim, Yeah, watchit if you're intered in James Brown.
(33:07):
It's a great story about his lifegrowing up. How what the conditions were,
you know, he his dad lefthim, His mom, you know,
was alcoholic and didn't care for himmuch, and then she would show
up at Tom's during his career andhe would give her money. But you
know, it was he had arough childhood, but he was very He
had a family that took him inlike a lot of entertainers learned to sing
(33:30):
in the gospel choirs and got tostart there and amazing, fascinating story.
So, Jim, this was sucha great conversation because, uh, you
kind of you know, I don'tknow, everyone's come to know you as
Alec Burdocks attorney and it's like,there's so much more to you and uh,
and you're just not you know.It's funny because I bring up stuff
(33:52):
to Matt, I bring stuff toJohn. I'm like, oh, you
know this thing, and He'll belike, oh, that was not a
big deal. I just was likedoing this with this case and it was
like not man, I'm like,wait what you know? And this is
kind of that kind of situation.It's like James Brown's estate is not just
any other state and it was sotied in with the story that Invescation Discoveries
(34:15):
featuring in the season. And yetyou know, the perspective that you brought
to what the episode highlights is verydifferent. And I think that our viewers
are listeners and those of Invesigation Discoveryare going to really appreciate it. So
I thank you, my partner incrime, for sharing your experience here.
(34:37):
Yeah, I want to jump onand add to that if I may,
which is to say that we're alwaysbringing a real perspective when it comes to
this podcast, The Presumption. Soif you're listening to this for the very
first time, you're a true crimefan and you want to hear about real
cases from real veteran lawyers and actuallyreally hear about how the work is actually
(34:57):
done. I personally, I'm nota lawyer. I I've learned so much
just from listening to YouTube over thelast you know, thirty plus episodes that
we've released. So again, ifthis is your first time listening, please
subscribe to our podcast. We're calledThe Presumption and at the Presumption is our
handle on all the social media pages, including YouTube as well YouTube dot com
(35:19):
slash at the Presumption. You cango there and watch the conversations, including
this one that we've just finished uptaping, so I just want to throw
that out. Great job, Sarahand Jim as always, and Jim until
next week. I feel good.It's okay for this episode too, but we rest
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