May 27, 2024 • 48 mins
This week Sara and Jim chat with lawyer, author, and political analyst Bakari Sellers. They dive into Bakari's high profile police brutality case, the case of Ricky Cobb, a Minnesota man who was unjustifiably shot to death by a state trooper. The hosts and Sellers take a close look at what the O.J. Simpson case would look like it if it was tried today, and overall how race plays in justice. The episode wraps with a discussion of the Mica Miller case in S. Carolina where Sellers and Jim practice law: was it really suicide?This week Sara and Jim chat with lawyer, author, and political analyst Bakari Sellers. They dive into Bakari's high profile police brutality case, the case of Ricky Cobb, a Minnesota man who was unjustifiably shot to death by a state trooper. The hosts and Sellers take a close look at what the O.J. Simpson case would look like it if it was tried today, and overall how race plays in justice. The episode wraps with a discussion of the Mica Miller case in S. Carolina where Sellers and Jim practice law: was it really suicide?
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Episode Transcript
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(00:22):
Hello, everyone, Welcome to thePresumption. I'm Sarah Azari, joined by
my partner and crime Jimmy g JimGriffin. Hey Jim, Hey Sarah.
How are you today? Good?How are you? And look who's here
with us? Bocary Sellers. What'sgoing to own? Hey? Everybody?
A man may Bacary. Finally,welcome Bakary. So look, before we
(00:47):
start, I just want to tellJim and everyone out there. I asked
for Bacary's bio and I headshot,like I do with everyone, and what
I got was a Google drive.I got a Google drive of like any
pictures and like three essays welcome tomy life, I have and I have
no idea what you got to Justsend it to people to send to you.
(01:11):
Yeah, but thank you for givingme options. I appreciate that you
all know him. You've seen himon your screens. Him and I met
on CNN and Bakari is a colleagueof Jim's down in South Carolina, but
we connected on CNN and he's recentlyreleased his new book The Moment. Find
it on Amazon and wherever else youget your reads. He has a children's
(01:34):
book, who Are Your People,inspired by his two Twins Sadian Stokely,
written to teach young Black readers abouttheir history. He's also authored a New
York Times bestseller and memoir, MyVanishing Country. He hosts the Bacari Sellers
Podcast twice a week's show where hediscusses a variety of topics from politics,
race, sports, media, thepresidential campaign, and more. He was
(01:55):
born into an activist family, asfather, civil rights leader Cleveland Sellers,
instilled horror values in Bacari to continuein the tireless commitment to service. Baccari
currently practices law with a strong lawfirm in Columbia, South Carolina, where
he handles criminal and civil rights matters. In two thousand and six, he
was the youngest African American elected officialin the nation at the age of twenty
two when he began serving on theSouth Carolina State Legislature. In twenty fourteen,
(02:20):
he was the Democratic nominee for LieutenantGovernor in South Carolina. In two
thousand and eight, he served onPresident Obama South Carolina Steering Committee. His
ability to reach across the aisle toget things done has led to numerous achievements,
including being named Tim Maxims forty underforty and the Route one hundred list
of the nation's most influential African Americanin twenty fifteen, and HBCU Top thirty
(02:44):
under thirty in July twenty fourteen.He's also a husband, father to those
cute twins, and a marathon runnerand really really really hard to get a
hold of. So look, todaywe want to talk about a very newsmaking
civil rights case, excessive force useof force case that you recently filed in
(03:05):
federal court. I think it's Cobbsversus Bacary. What's the lawsuit called.
So the lawsuit is actually filed asthe estate of Ricky Cobb, and it's
filed on behalf of the personal representative, who is his mother, Nira,
and so Nira Phields Miller and theofficer one of the officers last name,
(03:29):
the person who's actually been charged forhis murders Lunchergin. And the other is
we still don't know how to pronounceit, but it's s I E.
D E U saidy is what I'vebeen saying. One of these officers was
black and one of them was white, and then rights both officers are white.
(03:51):
Oh they were both white. Okay, sorry I read something there So
look, I mean, we wehave shared panels together about use of force
cases. I think we were onAnderson Cooper about the Kim Potter case and
then Black Wild jogging case, theAhmad arbery case, and all kinds of
(04:11):
you know, racist cases in thecriminal justice system. But just because the
news cycle has changed, Uh,doesn't mean that these obviously, these tragic
events are not happening across the nationon our street. So walk us through
the facts of cops and why thiswas excess use of force, because what
(04:31):
I read was the was that theyoung man when he was pulled over for
some bullshit traffic stop, in thatinteraction, like he took his foot off
the break And so I mean,we all know a car as a deadly
weapon, right, So what's theargument there that they should not have used
force to shoot him? All right? So you gotta got to back up
(04:54):
there. You made some conclusiatory statementsor statements. So let's just let's just
back up slightly. Uh. Yeah, know, Ricky Cobb is a young
man in Minnesota. We know thehistory. I want to start by disabusing
you of this notion of like Idon't I don't approach this from the theory
(05:15):
that the interaction per se is racist. And I think that a lot of
individuals who do this work or whocommentate on this work, try to look
at this as being a racist actor the fact that the cops were white
and there may have been a blackindividual who was murdered and see some level
of racism in that, and thatthat is a That's just not a complete
(05:41):
way to look at this. Infact, what I always say is that
you have to look at the systemsthat are in place, and it's not
necessarily the actors in those systems,but it's the systems that we have.
And so Ricky Cobb is just anotherone in a long line of individuals who
was murdered unjustly and you know,had a system in this country that isn't
(06:08):
broken, i would say, butworks the way it's intended to, where
law enforcement officers used deadly force orplay uh uh, you know, jury
and executioner on the side of theroad. In this particular incident, he
was pulled over for an issue thatwas minor at best, at violation that
(06:29):
was minor at best. He didnot have any warrants, he did not
have actually the gun in the car, They didn't even know he had a
gun in the car until after hewas already dead. It was in the
backseat. Okay, let me pushback on that. The stop, Yes,
it was bullshit. It was likea tail lights or something, right,
which we've heard before. But buthe did have a violation of I
(06:50):
don't know the law out there,but oh yeah, so that there was
an argument that he had a domesticviolence order here is a fellow. I
don't know what it is in Minnesota, but yeah, but it's not a
felony. And also it had expired, so that was not in place either.
And so you begin this interaction whereyou had your listeners believe somehow that
(07:14):
a car is a deadly weapon,when in fact, you cannot put yourself
in as an officer, you can'tput yourself at harm's way. An officer,
for example, cannot jump in frontof a car. In this particular
case, the officer jumped in theside of the car. The other officer
jumped in the side of the car. After Ricky had been asking numerous questions
(07:35):
about why are you stopping me?What is the issue? He was very
articulate, very clear with officers.He did not use the car as a
deadly weapon. He did not attemptto run anybody over or even flee He
never hit the gas. He litthis foot off the brake. The officer
fired one shot and it killed Ricky. There is, as you both know,
(07:59):
even if you want to make anyonebelieve that a car is a deadly
weapon, you cannot fire into vehicles, particularly vehicles, even if he was
fleeing. I had a case AndrewBrown where they shot into the back of
a vehicle. You cannot shoot ata moving vehicle. You could not shoot
at a vehicle that is going away. I mean, that's just common practice.
And Jim knows my expert very well. I'm sure I have none other
(08:22):
than the illustrious Jeff Albert from theUniversity of South Carolina, who is one
of the premier civil rights experts inthe country. He actually did the George
Floyd case and many other cases forus. It's amazing in South Carolina we
actually have the two pre eminent,both playing of and defense oriented civil rights
(08:43):
experts. One is Jeff Albert,the other wis Seth Stoughton. Both of
them teach criminal justice at the Universityof South Carolina. So we feel pretty
good about this case, we filedour suit. It's a typical nineteen eighty
three type of lawsuit. You know, we we are in. This case
is unique. It's one of therare cases I have. I'm probably in
(09:07):
I don't know, twenty five twentysix jurisdictions around the country with civil rights
cases, and this is the oneof two in which a law enforcement officer
has actually been charged. The districtAttorney Mariarty has filed criminal charges against the
officer who just for our viewers,does that help your civil case? The
(09:28):
fact that he's wait, is heconvicted or just charged? He's charged?
I mean it helps the family,I mean the family seeking justice. And
so this is rare. It's accountability, so, you know, civilly,
I don't think it, you know, other than the information and the ability
for me through discovery to be ableto ascertain other facts and utilize an entire
(09:52):
other investigative body or grand jury pool, something I wouldn't have access to,
you know, criminally, you know, I don't. I don't. I
mean, simply, I don't reallythink that it matters one way or another.
He's going through half coverage in termsof insurance coverage from the state of
Minnesota, regardless of whether or notis convicted or not, but they have
(10:13):
a very strong case against him.The prosecutor or the district attorney there in
Hennepin County is amazing. She's doinggreat work. It's a it's a very
I've never seen anything like it,per se. I've gone out there a
number of times, spend a lotof time with the family. We we've
had hearings where we've had deputies fromcounties around the state of Minnesota show up
(10:37):
in support of this officer. They'vetaken, you know, days of leave
off. We've had hundreds of officersand law enforcement show up at his hearings,
which has just been kind of fascinatingto see. And we've been attempting
to change the narrative that somehow theofficers a victim and not my FAMI family.
(11:00):
Lastly, I'll just tell you wherewe are procedurally. They've they filed
a motion to stay the case becauseof the criminal proceeding, but that in
civil rights cases, that's usually notthe remedy or outcome. Usually what happens
is we're able to tailor discovery wherewe can do everything but in all likelihood
to pose the criminal defendant. Theother officer we're arguing doesn't have standing because
(11:26):
he's not been charged with the crime. So we'll see what happens. I
don't know. I love the practiceof law. I love going in and
learning how to do this type stuff, but these civil rights cases are are
pretty draining. Yeah, I'm sureany when did this incident occur? Because
you just filed the civil lawsuit,But like, when did this happen?
This was last summer. I don'tknow the exact date. The problem that
(11:48):
I have, Sarah, is thatI was on a show the other day
with Saint Louis in pr and wewere talking about Michael Brown, and I
was confusing that of Michael Brown withthe date of Alton Sterling, with the
date of Eric Gardner with the dateof Walter Scott. I mean, it's
just these things happened so frequently regularly. Yeah. Yeah. And Minnesota's a
(12:11):
weird place because Minnesota actually had asettlement of a young lady, a white
woman, who was shot by lawenforcement. They settled that for about twenty
million dollars. He actually went toprison. He was found guilty of manslaughter.
Uh, and he uniquely enough wasof African descent, and so Minnesota
always You've had Dante Wright when theofficer of twenty years thought that she was
(12:37):
pulling out her taser, but shepulled out her weapon, and then you
she went to prison for a year, I believe. Uh. And then
you also had Derek Chauvin, andso it's been a lot going on in
this area. Ricky Cobb, isjust you mention George Floyd? Uh?
You mentioned something and I don't remember, sorry, but were you Were you
on that case? I was noton that case. That was Ben's case.
(12:58):
That was Ben's case, and theymoved pretty quickly, you know the
first you know, Ben is anamazing lawyer. I absolutely love Ben.
You guys have to get him onyour show one day. Ben has been
able to do something unique that manyothers before him have not. And Jim
probably could echo this. Pete talksabout it all the time. Pete Strong,
(13:18):
who I work with. But civilrights cases about pre George Floyd,
not even ten years ago, wereprobably worth three hundred thousand dollars. You
know, you get shot by alaw enforcement officer, you get three hundred
four hundred thousand dollars. Maybe youweren't getting the caps in South Carolina.
You weren't getting six hundred. Benhas been able to drive up the value
(13:39):
of black lives in this country,and it's been fascinating to be a part
of his team on a lot ofcases. We did the Andrew Brown case
together. We've done a lot ofcases around the country together. We actually
represented a she's still a Jane Doebecause she was a minor. It was
in Pickens County. I want towant to say. She was in a
(14:00):
car with a gentleman who was fleeingfrom police. He uh, somehow they
ended up on a hill in thedark. They they let the dog go.
The dog mauled her. They didn'tknow whether or not she was a
co defendant or kidnapped victim or whatever. And then they fired shots. They
(14:22):
they heard a shot and then theyfired shots into the darkness. They couldn't
see the shot they heard was actuallythis young man killing himself. So they
fired shots, ended up shooting myclient and killed their own dog. So
it was it was you know,we we do. I did that case
with Ben as well. We dothese cases around the country and they just
(14:43):
you do you find that they dothey settle? Are you almost always going
to trial. No, they settle, they No, There's usually one of
two options, and trial is usuallynot one of those options. So,
for example, I have the JarvisRandall case, which is in southern Florida
where my guy was going through amental health break inside of mental health facility.
(15:05):
He barricaded himself into the doors,and the mental health hospital for some
reason called the Broward County Sheriff's Departmentthe Broward County sheriff Department. He threw
brochure metal like brochure whatever you putbrochures in up in the ceiling and it
broke like the little plexiglass. Heput the rat the brochures around the glass
(15:28):
and he had it in his hands. The Broward County Sheriff's Department opened up
the door, shot a beanbag,missed, and then later shot him thirty
times. Right. And that case, yeah, that case was dismissed on
summary judgment. So my case iseither we get dismissed on summary judgment or
we settle. Yeah. I wasgoing to mention that Bacary clerk with a
(15:54):
federal judge one hundred and fifty yearsago, and you know, started getting
nineteen eighty three cases and as alaw clerk. You know, he was
a brand new judge. I'm divinginto this and the law is really complicated
in the area. So you Imean, you don't, you don't.
You don't take one of these caseslightly. You have to have a lot
of experience and you obviously do,and Ben Crumb does, and but it's
(16:15):
a high hurdle to prove, youknow, uh, and the qualified immunity
that community. Yeah, that's that'sbeen little i mean debated in Congress as
to whether they should abolish qualified immunity. Qualified immunity Jim I let McCary explain.
So basically, it's it's when youhave so there are two there are
(16:36):
two proms. One is more difficultthan the other. They're both really high
bar as though has just put it. But basically you have to have the
it's a reasonable officer standard, andif he had a reasonable belief that his
life or the life of others learneddanger, then he can just shoot you
or run you or whatever it maybe, which is just a weird type
of Uh. It's a weird nexusbecause you have to put yourself in that
(16:57):
officer's shoes at that particular time.And so when you evaluate these cases.
You know, cases that involve weaponsare usually cases that aren't good unless I
usually ask one question, where washe shot? That's the most important thing,
because if he was shot in theback nine times out of ten,
that is an awful shoot. Youcan't shoot people in the back, even
(17:19):
if they have a weapon. Youcan't shoot people in the back. And
the other prong to qualified immunity isthat it's you have to literally prove case
law with facts that are similar toyour case at hand. Like there's no
(17:40):
such thing as having a novel setof facts and solo. I mean.
The prong is that the officer hasto you know, knowingly violate a you
know, a well established legal,well established, well established law. Yeah,
and it's it's and so you haveto have a case on all fours
before, you know, right,So you know, in South Carolina and
(18:02):
a lot of other states, theyyou know, used to have the dog
could bite one time. The secondtime a dog bet in they're liable.
But but we get we did awaywith the first dog bite rule, but
now there's still the first you know, bad cop rules, right, the
first bad cop in a factual scenario, then he gets away. I mean
that's that's pretty much it is.Yeah, I mean, that's that's it.
(18:23):
It's a very very high bar.They're very expensive. And as you
both know, I mean, uhfrom the plaintive side that you of the
work, that you all do alittle bit of it at least that that
money, that money goes out thedoor, you don't get it back for
three or four years. So youknow, these cases, these cases,
I tell my families all the time, like I spend whatever money is necessary.
(18:44):
These cases, you know, areare you know, one hundred thousand
dollars expenditures for us. I justrecently we were involved in mediation and a
lot of times they involve a politicalaspect because UH cities or states have to
approve those settlements. And so Iwas in Colorado Springs recently for Dalvin Gatts
(19:04):
and ohoa is my client's name,and he was he was brutally beaten.
The officer's fists were bloody, andthey took a picture of his fist and
he was smiling, and he beatmy guy really really really bad, and
he had some he had some longterm brain issues from from that beating that
(19:25):
he that he suffered. And sowe have a lot of cases I'm in
Austin, I'm in San Diego.Uh. In these cases, you have
to be able to speaking of thecosts, obviously, you really have to
know whether, like what the riskis right or what the what the chances
are that you will your family wouldprevail right? Correct? Correct? You
(19:48):
know you I don't know about chances, but you you you want to get
rid of the bad cases quickly.Sometimes we take cases. I mean we're
in we're in Baton Rouge right now, where you have to investigate cases because
a lot of Southern in particular lawenforcement agencies aren't known for their transparency.
Oh there's weird things going on.You know, you might You're probably right.
(20:19):
You do criminal work all across thecountry, so you're probably right that
it's probably not. I just findthat in my Alabama's Mississippi's uh one they
don't charge officers or very rarely two. Uh. It takes a great deal
of work before you can. AndI tell these families often I'm like,
look, I just want to beable to get you answers. I don't
(20:41):
know what's going to happen at theend of the day, but I want
to be able to tell you whathappened to your loved one. I mean,
we still have jurisdictions that don't havebody cameras. So this is why
would you because then you can getto the truth. Well not only that,
but my but the best witness isalso dead, very rarely like my
my that was beaten. I said, dude, you are probably one of
(21:02):
my luckier clients because you're actually alive. Most of my clients are dead.
And that is you know, yougo to the funerals with these families,
You plan the states for these families. You you know, you have to
deal with the mothers of their children. You have to deal with their mothers,
You have to deal you provide mentalhealth counseling for them. You find
yourself not just being a lawyer,but you are an activist. You are
(21:25):
a a comms director, You're apsychologist, a psychiatrist, sociologist, and
a lawyer in the in this field. So I tell people that I wish,
I wish this, this work thatI do didn't exist. So,
Victoria, you've been talking mostly aboutexcessive force cases, and I also know
you do jail conditioned cases where youknow people are dying in jails from neglect
(21:51):
and that's even a higher burden toprove. But talk about some of those
cases, and I know I'm herein South Carolina, Yeah yeah, alvin
Escun Detention centers is kind of myjumping off point. I represent the family
of Wassan Butler who died, whowas suffering from a mental health issue,
(22:11):
was placed in the Shoe, whicheverybody, all of us have been in
a shoe, which is a specialhousing unit. They're called different things around
the country in different areas, butit's where it's like twenty three and one,
I believe like it locked away forthe overwhelming majority of the day.
Usually twenty three hours you get onehour is usually your worst of the worst,
But in poorer areas, due tolack of resources, they usually just
(22:34):
put people who have mental health issuesthere. My guy died from dehydration,
which nobody should die from. Aftereleven days. He was yelling and screaming
about rats biting him. He hadlittle marks that were indicated in medical records,
could have been road in activity.It's just it was a very difficult
(22:56):
thing. We've since then. Weprobably have over over thirty inmates that we
represent, and these are people whohaven't been sentenced yet that's not free or
found guilty yet, let alone.Is this a class action or it's not.
Everybody has an individual damage. Everybodyhas an individual hang and so like
they didn't have running water in thecells, and the toilets were backed up,
(23:18):
feces everywhere. His room was despicable, deplorable. I have individuals who've
been raped, I have individuals who'vebeen beaten, who've been stabbed. The
ACLU does a lot of this stuff. Are they involved in this at all?
Or so? We have some amazinglawyers here in South Carolina, Nicky
Shutt, for example, as somebodywho goes out and does this type of
(23:42):
what type of what is that publicinterest law type work where they go in
and they've actually filed a I believeit's a class They may have been filing
on individuals about the conditions of AvenescalinDetention Center. And because of my political
relationships in civil rights cases in thesecases as well, able to call individuals
(24:02):
in Washington, d C. Toget them to shine a light on it.
And so one of the things thatinstitutions such as Avens Detention Center do
not want is they do not wantthe federal government looking into them. Many
you know, in the officer involvedshootings. The last thing they want is
a federal investigation into that shooting.But we've been fortunate enough to the Civil
Rights Division of the United States Departmentof Justice has opened up investigations into both
(24:26):
the Charleston County Detention Center and theRichland County Detention Center. So that's going
to be really good, because whatyou don't want is like, we all
have kids. Well, Jim,you have kids, right, yeah,
I have more than my first yearyes, yeah, I have an eighteen
year old and two five year olds. And the last thing I want is
my eighteen year old to be likein Colombia and get underage drinking ticket have
(24:49):
to go to Avenes Glenn and worryabout getting beat to death or you know,
raped or stabbed in prison, andthat is the type of things that
are happening to inmates over there.I am utterly disappointed in the Richland County
Council. I've set that publicly andprivately into their face. I wish that
law enforcement agency would take it over. But here we are. How do
(25:11):
you have an eighteen year old whenyou were eleven years old during the oj
trial? Because I married, Imarried a seasoned woman. It's my bonus
child. So I want to talkabout the OJ. You have a cougar
hunter, Jim, I'm a cougarhunter. I'm a cougar hunter. You
have kicked your coverage. Wife Ellenis the class of that house. So
(25:34):
I can attest that's that's understand whatYour wife is older than you by substantially.
Really, he's a toy boy ofthe house. Thirty nine and your
wife is forty eight. She looksgreat. She looks forty nine in October.
(25:56):
She doesn't age, he doesn't ageythan you know, age is a
number bucket, Okay, so o, J Simpson, I wanted to talk
to you about this like I've beendying to talk to you about this,
because it is a case that isold, you know, three decades old,
but recently stirred up a lot stilla lot of anger and a lot
(26:22):
of sort of you know, therethere's still division around this case. You
know, you died a few weeksago, and I think that the case
still reflects America's racial divide. Hisnineteen ninety five acquittal was a defining moment
in our understanding of race policing injustice, and I think it's still sort of
(26:48):
remains about the different realities of whiteand black America. So, you know,
back in the day, I actuallywhen when the murder happened. Nicole
Simpson lived uh like two blocks fromwhere I grew up, and I remember
I was in I was in Ucla. I just started college and no,
I was yeah, no, no, yeah, I had just started call
(27:11):
was in college. Anyway, Iwas trying to go to summer abroad.
I couldn't get into my place.The roads were closed. They thought OJ
was, you know, hiding inthe condo. Uh. The whole thing
was so surreal. And then coincidentally, a very prominent defense attorney in LA
bought that condo because it was likeworth nothing after So anyway, I had
(27:33):
all those personal memories of it.But I followed that trial so closely.
I was so fascinated, even thoughI wasn't a lawyer, and you know,
a lot of black people in mycommunity and just in America were were
just it was an exhilarating result forthem. You know, this happened at
the heels of Rodney King, andthey were like, yeah, finally,
(27:57):
you know, and then the whites, of course, were like, this
is the race card. This isridiculous, you know, and I think
you know, the evidence obviously wasvery questionable in terms of the DNA,
the tampering the crime scene, thelying lead investigator who was a racist pig
and documented in the light about beinga racist pig. There's all those things
(28:19):
as well. But I want toknow your opinion is you know it would
do you think first of all,that his acquittal was owed merely to the
race card against that backdrop of whatwas going on here in LA with Rodney
King and all that, or doyou see it as sort of a perfect
(28:41):
combination of factors given the evidence sharyissues as well. I mean, I
think you also left out the factthat Johnny Cochrane was his lawyer, So
you left out the fact that evenwith you know, even with all of
those things you named, you hadto have someone that skilled as Johnny Cochran,
(29:02):
who Johnny Cochran actually represented my fatherback when he went to prison for
refusing to go to Vietnam. OJ'scase falls in terms of those kind of
cases that draw up distinct feelings ofracial animus. You think about my father's
(29:25):
trial in nineteen sixty eight, notthe one that Johnny represented them on.
But the Orangeburg massacre trial where hewent to prison. You think about Michael
Jackson's trial, which kind of drewthose same lines in OJ's trial. Of
course, Mark Furman was a keyplayer in that style, the style of
(29:45):
Johnny Cochrane. And you know,OJ's a complicated figure because OJ never wanted
to be black, and yet hewas. His black folk wrapped their arms
around him this particular case because wehad seen what this system was like.
Now I have had the opportunity tothere's only one person I know in the
(30:07):
world who knows this case better thananybody, and it's not Johnny. It's
not JUDGEDO is actually OJ and JeffreyTuban, And I've had the opportunity to
talk to Jeffrey about this case andpositive a lot of theories about this case
and who done it, as theysay, even was it OJ's son or
(30:30):
else? Curious which Tuban says aboutthe sun because I remember at the time
the Sun works will tell you Cubanwill look you dead in the face and
tell you that there's no doubt inhis mind he's a son. There that
O J. Simpson, that OJ. Simpson did this and did this
alone, he says, the only, the only thing, the only thing.
I'll put this out there because itdidn't really quite make the news.
(30:52):
But the son worked in a restaurantcalled The Farm, and he was known
for being not only punctual but early, never missing work, never calling in
sick. And that night or whateverthat day, whenever the murders occurred,
he didn't show up to work.He had a shift, he didn't show
up, he didn't call you neverwent back to work after that, And
(31:14):
that to me was I've raised that. I've raised that to him because every
every time I would be on TVwith him, I would go do my
OJ research and ask another question.The only thing he was he attempted to
but actually attempted to go interview OJwhen he was in prison in Nevada to
no avail. And so that wasjust something that he was never able to
do. It was a fascinating casethough, it really was, you know,
(31:40):
the I give Johnny Cochrane all thecredit. He also discovered my friend
Sean Chapman Hawley, who was apublic defender at the time, and kind
of picked her out and added herto the team. I think she was
the only female on the defense team. But I also have to say,
I don't think there's ever been youknow, they called it the dream team.
(32:01):
Maybe that's even where the term camefrom, but there's never been anything
like that, I think in anyhigh profile case like you had, and
you know, they're their own teamfor Murdoch or whatever, but like that,
that team was. It was likeBarrysheck for DNA, F Bailey,
Johnny. I mean, it's andyou know Robert Bob Shapiro, who is
(32:24):
a good friend of mine. I'mactually working on a case with him now.
He just sat at the council tolike he put the he put the
team together. But you had himand Kardashian who were sort of like the
managing partners of that, and thenyou had these amazing lawyers, you know.
So tell me why Kardashian had towithdraw? Did he have the murder
(32:50):
weapon? Did OJ give him themurder weapon? I've always thought that,
but oh that's interesting theory. Well, you know that there is uh O
J And I want to say Kardashianin particular got furious at Jeffrey Tuban because
yeah, it was Kardashian because therewere only apparently two people in the world
(33:15):
that knew that OJ had failed hispolygraph and when Jeffrey wrote his book,
somehow, some way he got knowledgethat OJ failed the polygraph, and Jim,
you know, speaking plainly speaking,you know about failing polygraphs. I
couldn't put a telegraph on my name. I mean, yeah, wait,
(33:42):
so could OJ two point zero getaway with it in twenty twenty four?
You think things have changed? Idon't. First of all, you know,
there are a lot of there werea lot of ramifications from that trial
that I didn't even I wasn't evenaware of. For example, one of
the reasons that we're not able towatch Donald Trump in court this week,
or Stormy Daniel's testimony is that afterJudge Edo became Judge Edo and did the
(34:07):
thing that judges do when they puton robes sometimes in front of cameras.
Uh. There were a lot ofmunicipalities, states, et cetera that took
cameras out of TVs, New YorkI mean cameras out of court rooms,
New York being one of them.And I had no idea that that was
the case. So there were alot of ramifications, I think detrimental ramifications.
Uh. So that's it's first ofall, if OJ was in South
(34:30):
Carolina, he would have been underthe prison. Yeah, no doubt.
LA is just a different breed.You don't. You don't La. Let
me say this, LA is adifferent breed. But that courthouse is a
different breed. The the that's ourcentral courthouse up the street from where I
live, and it's it pulls justthe best jury in the county. And
(34:54):
OJ's jury was predominantly black. SoI want that brings me to the next
question you kind of touched on,which is so he always sort of distanced
himself from the idea of being black, and he acted like he's white.
He is, his wife was white. He you know, I mean,
(35:15):
he was a celebrity. He wasan athlete, and he had privilege,
so he didn't you can't say hehad white privilege, but he had celebrity
privilege. And so how is itthat how do you reconcile the you know,
the color of his skin with reallyhis status. I mean, you
(35:37):
can't say it goes back to theis what I'm trying to say. It
goes back. It goes back tothe initial framing and how sometimes we have
to adjust our lens because I thinkyou're looking at OJ in this case as
an individual, when many black folksdid not look at him as an individual,
looked at a system that was unjust, and OJ was the latest victim
(35:58):
in that system. It's a lotlike how or to the conversation when in
civil rights cases and how we getcaught up in the individuals we have to
when we evaluate. When I evaluatethe criminal justice system, I don't evaluate
it based upon singular players are individualactors. I evaluated based upon what I
view as a as a system ofinjustice. Yeah, and that's how we
(36:21):
That's how a lot of people viewthe uh the O. J. Simpson
trial. Yeah, well, ChrisDarden is running for judge. I mean
I saw it. The only thingI know about Chris Chris Darden is that
he was about to represent Nipsey Hustle'skiller for like five minutes and that didn't
go well. No, he's he'sgiven credit for asking OJ to try the
(36:50):
glove on. I mean that wasyou know, whether he did it or
not, I've heard him being interviewedsaying, well, sometimes you just have
to go for broke. I guessthought they were losing at that point in
time, but that was apparently oJ didn't. You can tell me if
I'm wrong, but apparently o Jdidn't take his arthritis medicine that morning,
(37:10):
so his hand swollen and he hadand he you know, love on underneath
that, and he's an actor,and the blood, the blood makes it
shrink, you know, apparently youknow kind of yeah, the fabric,
but yeah, I mean the careI mean, Marshall Clark, I thought
was a good good. Yeah.I'm not sure about Chris Darting Chris Darden
(37:32):
law school. Huh since uh,since Johnny Cockran's closing. We've all when
we go try a criminal case,we're all looking for that tagline. Yeah,
I mean we're always trying to findit in our cases. And and
I don't think I've ever tried acase where someone didn't say the night before,
(37:52):
if it doesn't fit, you musthave quit. You know. That
was just perfect. That doesn't applyto any case, you know, So
you guys both in South Carolina.I was kind of following that Micah Miller
case and then the autopsy came backthat she committed suicide. I just thought
(38:13):
it was interesting because I mean,we're obviously this podcast about the presumption and
how media, you know, convictspeople, and literally this pastor, I
mean, I don't know what kindof a monster he is. There may
there may have been domestic violence,who knows, but literally he was convicted
in those days. But before theautopsy came out, the idea that oh
(38:36):
he must have killed her, hehad every reason to kill her, you
know, and the family's going afterand and so as it turns out,
you know, the cording to theautopsy there's suicide. Is there any concern
about it not having been suicide?I mean, is there because people are
still, you know, wondering.I know, I don't know enough about
(38:58):
that case. All I can tellyou is I saw it. Case was
in Orie County, and I knewit wasn't gonna make sense because nothing happened
along the coastline that makes sense,okay, And then it ended up in
Robinson County and in North Carolina,which is the same. Uh So,
by the way, I have acivil rights case in Robinson County right now,
and guess what, they don't havebody cameras, so uh, you
(39:22):
know, I feel like I feellike, uh is that where Myrtle is
that where Myrtle beaches? Myrtle beachis in Ori County. That's where.
Yeah, but she actually killed it. She killed herself in Robinson County.
Yes, that's true. In NorthCarolina. So I mean, Sarah,
then, I mean this is anothing burger. But I mean and and
(39:45):
you're just you're plugged into this thistoxic group out there. They're trying to
find injustice where it doesn't exist,and you know, they're trying to find
on the next Murdock case. Andthat's what exactly. You're right, you
guys are used to working in yoursystem. I think the Murdock case really
(40:08):
just put the spotlight on how differentthings are down there. My hat's off
to you, because I don't thinkI could practice law down there, and
I've been around the country, butit's uh so, I think that there's
also that because there's a lot ofstuff that happens in South Carolina that just
doesn't make the news. But Isaw this in Fitz News and I was
like, oh no, this isanother weird story in South Here he was
(40:30):
he seems to be a pretty terriblehuman being. Yeah, but there is
a there is a big jump frombeing a terrible human being. Yeah,
that's a that's a that's a jump, and I think that a lot of
people. Uh. I don't thinkhe'll do it because by being such an
(40:52):
awful human being, he can't sithis ass down for a deposition. But
there has been a lot of defamingof him going around. It's there's not
much he can do about it.You know. The first thing I would
do if he came to my officeand say, can you see X y
Z for defamation, I'd be like, Bro, you can't sit down for
no deposition. A videotape deposition ofyou as a pastor would destroy you.
(41:14):
You know. It's funny because Iyou know, I don't. I just
don't go there. You know.I'm not going to name names. But
a producer that Jim knows as wellreached out to me and said, sent
me the link of this story,you know, meaning we're gonna talk about
this time. And I said,well, I just looked it up.
Her autopsy came back. She diedby suicide. She made a call,
she's gonna go kill herself. Shebought a gun and she you know,
(41:36):
and they're like yeah, but andI said, I'm not going there.
I'm like, yeah, there's analibi. It was with his girlfriend and
somewhere else, so forget it,okay, before we let you go,
I saw you on C and Iwas like, I have to ask,
what the hell is going on withRFK Junior's brain and the warm please?
(42:00):
I don't know, man gym isfrom that generation. I'd have to let
him. You got to tell mewhat type of drugs and stuff? Yeah,
I am back in the day.I ate a lot of worms when
we got to the bottom of Yeah, I don't know if I feel bad
bad for RFK. I don't know. Is that I mean, I can't
(42:22):
like, I mean, it's sobizarre. This is a candidate, Like
it's so bizarre to me, Likewe're going Biden's old Trump's oil and then
this guy has like his brain goteaten by worms, Like what is that
real? Like what is going on? I saw you, like seriously standing
up with my friend Sarah Seidner andsomeone else and you're like having a serious
(42:43):
conversation about this. I don't knowhow serious I was. My advice was
that you shouldn't. I tell myclients to not get high before they do
depositions, because I felt like thatis That's probably where RFK Junior was but
that that that is for somebody elseto He got very defensive on on MSNBC
yesterday, Sarah, I want beforewe finished, I want to switch topics
(43:08):
very briefly. You know, Bacarihas his own podcast, and I'll tell
you, I didn't realize you hada podcast, McCary until I was on
a plane, a very long planeride, and I was listening to podcast
and ship there's Cary Seller. Iknow him. And you're interviewing Lebron James.
Do you remember that Lebron? Nowyou you were interviewing some NBA basketball
(43:32):
player? Do I have I interviewedVince Carter, Antoine Jamison. I haven't
interviewed Lebron yet, but I havea long list of than Danny Green.
No, I've interviewed Deshaun Watson.I've interviewed them all. I swear I'm
okay. So I'm totally confused.But beyond that, you're wearing a women's
Final four sweatshirt and you appear tobe an honorary member of the Women's Lady
(43:58):
Game Cops and Don Staley's toy Boy. Yeah, well there you go.
I come so close to the women'sbasketball team and I know it has to
be great fun. Oh, it'sa lot of fun. They are an
amazing group of women. Donna's isone of the you know, most amazing
him beings I've ever been around.She's a really good friend of mine.
(44:23):
My wife is a part and shetravels with us all the time. Uh,
Women's basketball, women's women's basket.Jesus, you guys are old and
antiquated. You can hang out withthe women's basketball team. It's all good.
It's the it's it's the sport thatI've loved for a long time.
To finally get the attention they deserve. And we're actually really really good,
(44:43):
so it makes it easy to lovethem. But shout out to those girls.
They do a lot of great work. The coaching staff is amazing.
Donna's is my sister friend, andI absolutely love them. All those girls
are like we all. They're likeall our little sisters. We take care
of them in this city always.So I got to tell you, Sarah
over Christmas this past year, twentytwenty three. But Cary says, Hey,
(45:07):
Jim, it's Christmas Eve. Yousaid, I've got a few people
coming over. How about stop byand have a have a drink? You
know, before Christmas, and Isaid, sure, I stopped by.
I showed up and it is thebiggest party that in Columbia has seen all
year. And uh, I thinkhalf half a Charlotte came down and they're
all these lucky there. We hadthe piano, we had Yes, some
(45:30):
people were some people were upset itand get invited. Yeah. Well,
there was a few of his closestfriends and and of course coach Staley was
there and and the car is niceenough to introduce me in. And she
was, you know, one ofmany many people who was glued to the
Murdock case. And she told methat on Wednesdays during the Murdoch trial,
(45:52):
they had basketball practice at like inthe morning, and so she made him
practice at five in the morning tobe done so she could watch the trial.
Everybody watch it. Everybody knows whoJim Griffin is watched. Actually,
you know what's funny, I justit just dawned on me. I was
talking to Bacary when the trial started. At the beginning, I was talking
(46:14):
to Bacary and he was in andout of court on his own cases.
He wasn't coming out there and whateverit's called, Walter whatever, Calton County.
Yeah, Walter bro and uh.And I like, of course assumed
he's probably there because he's got oneof the witnesses whatever. And so I
was like blowing up his phone withall my questions and and he's like,
you know, I don't go thereevery day, right, like my own
(46:37):
work. And I was like,oh yeah, and I did two days.
I did two days in the courtroomand that was that was enough enough?
Yeah, And then you said youreally should talk to Jim Griffin and
and as I was like, BrosenTrial, like he's not going to take
my call, and he sure did. So I was like I was stoked,
(46:57):
and I think you actually can.I'm sorry. I apologize to you.
That's I owe you on. I'mstill trying to find a right connection
for you, all right. Maggiesaid, hello guys, and thank you
so much. Yeah, so listen, thank you, thank you. I
know you're in an airport and yougot to go for taking time out of
(47:19):
your book tour, your marathon scheduleand all that stuff to be with us.
And people can find you on socialmedia South Carolina. They can find
your books on Amazon, and soI invite everybody to follow and follow book
sellers. Yeah, Jim, Ihighly recommend his children's book. I have
one from my grandchild and my grandchildon the way. We'll beginning another one
(47:44):
which I need you to sign heresoon. I got you always, and
then looking forward to reading your newbook. Yeah, me too. And
you can find us on all podcastplatforms as well as on YouTube. And
until next time, Jim, werest Nest
Hello, everyone, Welcome to thePresumption. I'm Sarah Azari, joined by
my partner and crime Jimmy g JimGriffin. Hey Jim, Hey Sarah.
How are you today? Good?How are you? And look who's here
with us? Bocary Sellers. What'sgoing to own? Hey? Everybody?
A man may Bacary. Finally,welcome Bakary. So look, before we
(00:47):
start, I just want to tellJim and everyone out there. I asked
for Bacary's bio and I headshot,like I do with everyone, and what
I got was a Google drive.I got a Google drive of like any
pictures and like three essays welcome tomy life, I have and I have
no idea what you got to Justsend it to people to send to you.
(01:11):
Yeah, but thank you for givingme options. I appreciate that you
all know him. You've seen himon your screens. Him and I met
on CNN and Bakari is a colleagueof Jim's down in South Carolina, but
we connected on CNN and he's recentlyreleased his new book The Moment. Find
it on Amazon and wherever else youget your reads. He has a children's
(01:34):
book, who Are Your People,inspired by his two Twins Sadian Stokely,
written to teach young Black readers abouttheir history. He's also authored a New
York Times bestseller and memoir, MyVanishing Country. He hosts the Bacari Sellers
Podcast twice a week's show where hediscusses a variety of topics from politics,
race, sports, media, thepresidential campaign, and more. He was
(01:55):
born into an activist family, asfather, civil rights leader Cleveland Sellers,
instilled horror values in Bacari to continuein the tireless commitment to service. Baccari
currently practices law with a strong lawfirm in Columbia, South Carolina, where
he handles criminal and civil rights matters. In two thousand and six, he
was the youngest African American elected officialin the nation at the age of twenty
two when he began serving on theSouth Carolina State Legislature. In twenty fourteen,
(02:20):
he was the Democratic nominee for LieutenantGovernor in South Carolina. In two
thousand and eight, he served onPresident Obama South Carolina Steering Committee. His
ability to reach across the aisle toget things done has led to numerous achievements,
including being named Tim Maxims forty underforty and the Route one hundred list
of the nation's most influential African Americanin twenty fifteen, and HBCU Top thirty
(02:44):
under thirty in July twenty fourteen.He's also a husband, father to those
cute twins, and a marathon runnerand really really really hard to get a
hold of. So look, todaywe want to talk about a very newsmaking
civil rights case, excessive force useof force case that you recently filed in
(03:05):
federal court. I think it's Cobbsversus Bacary. What's the lawsuit called.
So the lawsuit is actually filed asthe estate of Ricky Cobb, and it's
filed on behalf of the personal representative, who is his mother, Nira,
and so Nira Phields Miller and theofficer one of the officers last name,
(03:29):
the person who's actually been charged forhis murders Lunchergin. And the other is
we still don't know how to pronounceit, but it's s I E.
D E U saidy is what I'vebeen saying. One of these officers was
black and one of them was white, and then rights both officers are white.
(03:51):
Oh they were both white. Okay, sorry I read something there So
look, I mean, we wehave shared panels together about use of force
cases. I think we were onAnderson Cooper about the Kim Potter case and
then Black Wild jogging case, theAhmad arbery case, and all kinds of
(04:11):
you know, racist cases in thecriminal justice system. But just because the
news cycle has changed, Uh,doesn't mean that these obviously, these tragic
events are not happening across the nationon our street. So walk us through
the facts of cops and why thiswas excess use of force, because what
(04:31):
I read was the was that theyoung man when he was pulled over for
some bullshit traffic stop, in thatinteraction, like he took his foot off
the break And so I mean,we all know a car as a deadly
weapon, right, So what's theargument there that they should not have used
force to shoot him? All right? So you gotta got to back up
(04:54):
there. You made some conclusiatory statementsor statements. So let's just let's just
back up slightly. Uh. Yeah, know, Ricky Cobb is a young
man in Minnesota. We know thehistory. I want to start by disabusing
you of this notion of like Idon't I don't approach this from the theory
(05:15):
that the interaction per se is racist. And I think that a lot of
individuals who do this work or whocommentate on this work, try to look
at this as being a racist actor the fact that the cops were white
and there may have been a blackindividual who was murdered and see some level
of racism in that, and thatthat is a That's just not a complete
(05:41):
way to look at this. Infact, what I always say is that
you have to look at the systemsthat are in place, and it's not
necessarily the actors in those systems,but it's the systems that we have.
And so Ricky Cobb is just anotherone in a long line of individuals who
was murdered unjustly and you know,had a system in this country that isn't
(06:08):
broken, i would say, butworks the way it's intended to, where
law enforcement officers used deadly force orplay uh uh, you know, jury
and executioner on the side of theroad. In this particular incident, he
was pulled over for an issue thatwas minor at best, at violation that
(06:29):
was minor at best. He didnot have any warrants, he did not
have actually the gun in the car, They didn't even know he had a
gun in the car until after hewas already dead. It was in the
backseat. Okay, let me pushback on that. The stop, Yes,
it was bullshit. It was likea tail lights or something, right,
which we've heard before. But buthe did have a violation of I
(06:50):
don't know the law out there,but oh yeah, so that there was
an argument that he had a domesticviolence order here is a fellow. I
don't know what it is in Minnesota, but yeah, but it's not a
felony. And also it had expired, so that was not in place either.
And so you begin this interaction whereyou had your listeners believe somehow that
(07:14):
a car is a deadly weapon,when in fact, you cannot put yourself
in as an officer, you can'tput yourself at harm's way. An officer,
for example, cannot jump in frontof a car. In this particular
case, the officer jumped in theside of the car. The other officer
jumped in the side of the car. After Ricky had been asking numerous questions
(07:35):
about why are you stopping me?What is the issue? He was very
articulate, very clear with officers.He did not use the car as a
deadly weapon. He did not attemptto run anybody over or even flee He
never hit the gas. He litthis foot off the brake. The officer
fired one shot and it killed Ricky. There is, as you both know,
(07:59):
even if you want to make anyonebelieve that a car is a deadly
weapon, you cannot fire into vehicles, particularly vehicles, even if he was
fleeing. I had a case AndrewBrown where they shot into the back of
a vehicle. You cannot shoot ata moving vehicle. You could not shoot
at a vehicle that is going away. I mean, that's just common practice.
And Jim knows my expert very well. I'm sure I have none other
(08:22):
than the illustrious Jeff Albert from theUniversity of South Carolina, who is one
of the premier civil rights experts inthe country. He actually did the George
Floyd case and many other cases forus. It's amazing in South Carolina we
actually have the two pre eminent,both playing of and defense oriented civil rights
(08:43):
experts. One is Jeff Albert,the other wis Seth Stoughton. Both of
them teach criminal justice at the Universityof South Carolina. So we feel pretty
good about this case, we filedour suit. It's a typical nineteen eighty
three type of lawsuit. You know, we we are in. This case
is unique. It's one of therare cases I have. I'm probably in
(09:07):
I don't know, twenty five twentysix jurisdictions around the country with civil rights
cases, and this is the oneof two in which a law enforcement officer
has actually been charged. The districtAttorney Mariarty has filed criminal charges against the
officer who just for our viewers,does that help your civil case? The
(09:28):
fact that he's wait, is heconvicted or just charged? He's charged?
I mean it helps the family,I mean the family seeking justice. And
so this is rare. It's accountability, so, you know, civilly,
I don't think it, you know, other than the information and the ability
for me through discovery to be ableto ascertain other facts and utilize an entire
(09:52):
other investigative body or grand jury pool, something I wouldn't have access to,
you know, criminally, you know, I don't. I don't. I
mean, simply, I don't reallythink that it matters one way or another.
He's going through half coverage in termsof insurance coverage from the state of
Minnesota, regardless of whether or notis convicted or not, but they have
(10:13):
a very strong case against him.The prosecutor or the district attorney there in
Hennepin County is amazing. She's doinggreat work. It's a it's a very
I've never seen anything like it,per se. I've gone out there a
number of times, spend a lotof time with the family. We we've
had hearings where we've had deputies fromcounties around the state of Minnesota show up
(10:37):
in support of this officer. They'vetaken, you know, days of leave
off. We've had hundreds of officersand law enforcement show up at his hearings,
which has just been kind of fascinatingto see. And we've been attempting
to change the narrative that somehow theofficers a victim and not my FAMI family.
(11:00):
Lastly, I'll just tell you wherewe are procedurally. They've they filed
a motion to stay the case becauseof the criminal proceeding, but that in
civil rights cases, that's usually notthe remedy or outcome. Usually what happens
is we're able to tailor discovery wherewe can do everything but in all likelihood
to pose the criminal defendant. Theother officer we're arguing doesn't have standing because
(11:26):
he's not been charged with the crime. So we'll see what happens. I
don't know. I love the practiceof law. I love going in and
learning how to do this type stuff, but these civil rights cases are are
pretty draining. Yeah, I'm sureany when did this incident occur? Because
you just filed the civil lawsuit,But like, when did this happen?
This was last summer. I don'tknow the exact date. The problem that
(11:48):
I have, Sarah, is thatI was on a show the other day
with Saint Louis in pr and wewere talking about Michael Brown, and I
was confusing that of Michael Brown withthe date of Alton Sterling, with the
date of Eric Gardner with the dateof Walter Scott. I mean, it's
just these things happened so frequently regularly. Yeah. Yeah. And Minnesota's a
(12:11):
weird place because Minnesota actually had asettlement of a young lady, a white
woman, who was shot by lawenforcement. They settled that for about twenty
million dollars. He actually went toprison. He was found guilty of manslaughter.
Uh, and he uniquely enough wasof African descent, and so Minnesota
always You've had Dante Wright when theofficer of twenty years thought that she was
(12:37):
pulling out her taser, but shepulled out her weapon, and then you
she went to prison for a year, I believe. Uh. And then
you also had Derek Chauvin, andso it's been a lot going on in
this area. Ricky Cobb, isjust you mention George Floyd? Uh?
You mentioned something and I don't remember, sorry, but were you Were you
on that case? I was noton that case. That was Ben's case.
(12:58):
That was Ben's case, and theymoved pretty quickly, you know the
first you know, Ben is anamazing lawyer. I absolutely love Ben.
You guys have to get him onyour show one day. Ben has been
able to do something unique that manyothers before him have not. And Jim
probably could echo this. Pete talksabout it all the time. Pete Strong,
(13:18):
who I work with. But civilrights cases about pre George Floyd,
not even ten years ago, wereprobably worth three hundred thousand dollars. You
know, you get shot by alaw enforcement officer, you get three hundred
four hundred thousand dollars. Maybe youweren't getting the caps in South Carolina.
You weren't getting six hundred. Benhas been able to drive up the value
(13:39):
of black lives in this country,and it's been fascinating to be a part
of his team on a lot ofcases. We did the Andrew Brown case
together. We've done a lot ofcases around the country together. We actually
represented a she's still a Jane Doebecause she was a minor. It was
in Pickens County. I want towant to say. She was in a
(14:00):
car with a gentleman who was fleeingfrom police. He uh, somehow they
ended up on a hill in thedark. They they let the dog go.
The dog mauled her. They didn'tknow whether or not she was a
co defendant or kidnapped victim or whatever. And then they fired shots. They
(14:22):
they heard a shot and then theyfired shots into the darkness. They couldn't
see the shot they heard was actuallythis young man killing himself. So they
fired shots, ended up shooting myclient and killed their own dog. So
it was it was you know,we we do. I did that case
with Ben as well. We dothese cases around the country and they just
(14:43):
you do you find that they dothey settle? Are you almost always going
to trial. No, they settle, they No, There's usually one of
two options, and trial is usuallynot one of those options. So,
for example, I have the JarvisRandall case, which is in southern Florida
where my guy was going through amental health break inside of mental health facility.
(15:05):
He barricaded himself into the doors,and the mental health hospital for some
reason called the Broward County Sheriff's Departmentthe Broward County sheriff Department. He threw
brochure metal like brochure whatever you putbrochures in up in the ceiling and it
broke like the little plexiglass. Heput the rat the brochures around the glass
(15:28):
and he had it in his hands. The Broward County Sheriff's Department opened up
the door, shot a beanbag,missed, and then later shot him thirty
times. Right. And that case, yeah, that case was dismissed on
summary judgment. So my case iseither we get dismissed on summary judgment or
we settle. Yeah. I wasgoing to mention that Bacary clerk with a
(15:54):
federal judge one hundred and fifty yearsago, and you know, started getting
nineteen eighty three cases and as alaw clerk. You know, he was
a brand new judge. I'm divinginto this and the law is really complicated
in the area. So you Imean, you don't, you don't.
You don't take one of these caseslightly. You have to have a lot
of experience and you obviously do,and Ben Crumb does, and but it's
(16:15):
a high hurdle to prove, youknow, uh, and the qualified immunity
that community. Yeah, that's that'sbeen little i mean debated in Congress as
to whether they should abolish qualified immunity. Qualified immunity Jim I let McCary explain.
So basically, it's it's when youhave so there are two there are
(16:36):
two proms. One is more difficultthan the other. They're both really high
bar as though has just put it. But basically you have to have the
it's a reasonable officer standard, andif he had a reasonable belief that his
life or the life of others learneddanger, then he can just shoot you
or run you or whatever it maybe, which is just a weird type
of Uh. It's a weird nexusbecause you have to put yourself in that
(16:57):
officer's shoes at that particular time.And so when you evaluate these cases.
You know, cases that involve weaponsare usually cases that aren't good unless I
usually ask one question, where washe shot? That's the most important thing,
because if he was shot in theback nine times out of ten,
that is an awful shoot. Youcan't shoot people in the back, even
(17:19):
if they have a weapon. Youcan't shoot people in the back. And
the other prong to qualified immunity isthat it's you have to literally prove case
law with facts that are similar toyour case at hand. Like there's no
(17:40):
such thing as having a novel setof facts and solo. I mean.
The prong is that the officer hasto you know, knowingly violate a you
know, a well established legal,well established, well established law. Yeah,
and it's it's and so you haveto have a case on all fours
before, you know, right,So you know, in South Carolina and
(18:02):
a lot of other states, theyyou know, used to have the dog
could bite one time. The secondtime a dog bet in they're liable.
But but we get we did awaywith the first dog bite rule, but
now there's still the first you know, bad cop rules, right, the
first bad cop in a factual scenario, then he gets away. I mean
that's that's pretty much it is.Yeah, I mean, that's that's it.
(18:23):
It's a very very high bar.They're very expensive. And as you
both know, I mean, uhfrom the plaintive side that you of the
work, that you all do alittle bit of it at least that that
money, that money goes out thedoor, you don't get it back for
three or four years. So youknow, these cases, these cases,
I tell my families all the time, like I spend whatever money is necessary.
(18:44):
These cases, you know, areare you know, one hundred thousand
dollars expenditures for us. I justrecently we were involved in mediation and a
lot of times they involve a politicalaspect because UH cities or states have to
approve those settlements. And so Iwas in Colorado Springs recently for Dalvin Gatts
(19:04):
and ohoa is my client's name,and he was he was brutally beaten.
The officer's fists were bloody, andthey took a picture of his fist and
he was smiling, and he beatmy guy really really really bad, and
he had some he had some longterm brain issues from from that beating that
(19:25):
he that he suffered. And sowe have a lot of cases I'm in
Austin, I'm in San Diego.Uh. In these cases, you have
to be able to speaking of thecosts, obviously, you really have to
know whether, like what the riskis right or what the what the chances
are that you will your family wouldprevail right? Correct? Correct? You
(19:48):
know you I don't know about chances, but you you you want to get
rid of the bad cases quickly.Sometimes we take cases. I mean we're
in we're in Baton Rouge right now, where you have to investigate cases because
a lot of Southern in particular lawenforcement agencies aren't known for their transparency.
Oh there's weird things going on.You know, you might You're probably right.
(20:19):
You do criminal work all across thecountry, so you're probably right that
it's probably not. I just findthat in my Alabama's Mississippi's uh one they
don't charge officers or very rarely two. Uh. It takes a great deal
of work before you can. AndI tell these families often I'm like,
look, I just want to beable to get you answers. I don't
(20:41):
know what's going to happen at theend of the day, but I want
to be able to tell you whathappened to your loved one. I mean,
we still have jurisdictions that don't havebody cameras. So this is why
would you because then you can getto the truth. Well not only that,
but my but the best witness isalso dead, very rarely like my
my that was beaten. I said, dude, you are probably one of
(21:02):
my luckier clients because you're actually alive. Most of my clients are dead.
And that is you know, yougo to the funerals with these families,
You plan the states for these families. You you know, you have to
deal with the mothers of their children. You have to deal with their mothers,
You have to deal you provide mentalhealth counseling for them. You find
yourself not just being a lawyer,but you are an activist. You are
(21:25):
a a comms director, You're apsychologist, a psychiatrist, sociologist, and
a lawyer in the in this field. So I tell people that I wish,
I wish this, this work thatI do didn't exist. So,
Victoria, you've been talking mostly aboutexcessive force cases, and I also know
you do jail conditioned cases where youknow people are dying in jails from neglect
(21:51):
and that's even a higher burden toprove. But talk about some of those
cases, and I know I'm herein South Carolina, Yeah yeah, alvin
Escun Detention centers is kind of myjumping off point. I represent the family
of Wassan Butler who died, whowas suffering from a mental health issue,
(22:11):
was placed in the Shoe, whicheverybody, all of us have been in
a shoe, which is a specialhousing unit. They're called different things around
the country in different areas, butit's where it's like twenty three and one,
I believe like it locked away forthe overwhelming majority of the day.
Usually twenty three hours you get onehour is usually your worst of the worst,
But in poorer areas, due tolack of resources, they usually just
(22:34):
put people who have mental health issuesthere. My guy died from dehydration,
which nobody should die from. Aftereleven days. He was yelling and screaming
about rats biting him. He hadlittle marks that were indicated in medical records,
could have been road in activity.It's just it was a very difficult
(22:56):
thing. We've since then. Weprobably have over over thirty inmates that we
represent, and these are people whohaven't been sentenced yet that's not free or
found guilty yet, let alone.Is this a class action or it's not.
Everybody has an individual damage. Everybodyhas an individual hang and so like
they didn't have running water in thecells, and the toilets were backed up,
(23:18):
feces everywhere. His room was despicable, deplorable. I have individuals who've
been raped, I have individuals who'vebeen beaten, who've been stabbed. The
ACLU does a lot of this stuff. Are they involved in this at all?
Or so? We have some amazinglawyers here in South Carolina, Nicky
Shutt, for example, as somebodywho goes out and does this type of
(23:42):
what type of what is that publicinterest law type work where they go in
and they've actually filed a I believeit's a class They may have been filing
on individuals about the conditions of AvenescalinDetention Center. And because of my political
relationships in civil rights cases in thesecases as well, able to call individuals
(24:02):
in Washington, d C. Toget them to shine a light on it.
And so one of the things thatinstitutions such as Avens Detention Center do
not want is they do not wantthe federal government looking into them. Many
you know, in the officer involvedshootings. The last thing they want is
a federal investigation into that shooting.But we've been fortunate enough to the Civil
Rights Division of the United States Departmentof Justice has opened up investigations into both
(24:26):
the Charleston County Detention Center and theRichland County Detention Center. So that's going
to be really good, because whatyou don't want is like, we all
have kids. Well, Jim,you have kids, right, yeah,
I have more than my first yearyes, yeah, I have an eighteen
year old and two five year olds. And the last thing I want is
my eighteen year old to be likein Colombia and get underage drinking ticket have
(24:49):
to go to Avenes Glenn and worryabout getting beat to death or you know,
raped or stabbed in prison, andthat is the type of things that
are happening to inmates over there.I am utterly disappointed in the Richland County
Council. I've set that publicly andprivately into their face. I wish that
law enforcement agency would take it over. But here we are. How do
(25:11):
you have an eighteen year old whenyou were eleven years old during the oj
trial? Because I married, Imarried a seasoned woman. It's my bonus
child. So I want to talkabout the OJ. You have a cougar
hunter, Jim, I'm a cougarhunter. I'm a cougar hunter. You
have kicked your coverage. Wife Ellenis the class of that house. So
(25:34):
I can attest that's that's understand whatYour wife is older than you by substantially.
Really, he's a toy boy ofthe house. Thirty nine and your
wife is forty eight. She looksgreat. She looks forty nine in October.
(25:56):
She doesn't age, he doesn't ageythan you know, age is a
number bucket, Okay, so o, J Simpson, I wanted to talk
to you about this like I've beendying to talk to you about this,
because it is a case that isold, you know, three decades old,
but recently stirred up a lot stilla lot of anger and a lot
(26:22):
of sort of you know, therethere's still division around this case. You
know, you died a few weeksago, and I think that the case
still reflects America's racial divide. Hisnineteen ninety five acquittal was a defining moment
in our understanding of race policing injustice, and I think it's still sort of
(26:48):
remains about the different realities of whiteand black America. So, you know,
back in the day, I actuallywhen when the murder happened. Nicole
Simpson lived uh like two blocks fromwhere I grew up, and I remember
I was in I was in Ucla. I just started college and no,
I was yeah, no, no, yeah, I had just started call
(27:11):
was in college. Anyway, Iwas trying to go to summer abroad.
I couldn't get into my place.The roads were closed. They thought OJ
was, you know, hiding inthe condo. Uh. The whole thing
was so surreal. And then coincidentally, a very prominent defense attorney in LA
bought that condo because it was likeworth nothing after So anyway, I had
(27:33):
all those personal memories of it.But I followed that trial so closely.
I was so fascinated, even thoughI wasn't a lawyer, and you know,
a lot of black people in mycommunity and just in America were were
just it was an exhilarating result forthem. You know, this happened at
the heels of Rodney King, andthey were like, yeah, finally,
(27:57):
you know, and then the whites, of course, were like, this
is the race card. This isridiculous, you know, and I think
you know, the evidence obviously wasvery questionable in terms of the DNA,
the tampering the crime scene, thelying lead investigator who was a racist pig
and documented in the light about beinga racist pig. There's all those things
(28:19):
as well. But I want toknow your opinion is you know it would
do you think first of all,that his acquittal was owed merely to the
race card against that backdrop of whatwas going on here in LA with Rodney
King and all that, or doyou see it as sort of a perfect
(28:41):
combination of factors given the evidence sharyissues as well. I mean, I
think you also left out the factthat Johnny Cochrane was his lawyer, So
you left out the fact that evenwith you know, even with all of
those things you named, you hadto have someone that skilled as Johnny Cochran,
(29:02):
who Johnny Cochran actually represented my fatherback when he went to prison for
refusing to go to Vietnam. OJ'scase falls in terms of those kind of
cases that draw up distinct feelings ofracial animus. You think about my father's
(29:25):
trial in nineteen sixty eight, notthe one that Johnny represented them on.
But the Orangeburg massacre trial where hewent to prison. You think about Michael
Jackson's trial, which kind of drewthose same lines in OJ's trial. Of
course, Mark Furman was a keyplayer in that style, the style of
(29:45):
Johnny Cochrane. And you know,OJ's a complicated figure because OJ never wanted
to be black, and yet hewas. His black folk wrapped their arms
around him this particular case because wehad seen what this system was like.
Now I have had the opportunity tothere's only one person I know in the
(30:07):
world who knows this case better thananybody, and it's not Johnny. It's
not JUDGEDO is actually OJ and JeffreyTuban, And I've had the opportunity to
talk to Jeffrey about this case andpositive a lot of theories about this case
and who done it, as theysay, even was it OJ's son or
(30:30):
else? Curious which Tuban says aboutthe sun because I remember at the time
the Sun works will tell you Cubanwill look you dead in the face and
tell you that there's no doubt inhis mind he's a son. There that
O J. Simpson, that OJ. Simpson did this and did this
alone, he says, the only, the only thing, the only thing.
I'll put this out there because itdidn't really quite make the news.
(30:52):
But the son worked in a restaurantcalled The Farm, and he was known
for being not only punctual but early, never missing work, never calling in
sick. And that night or whateverthat day, whenever the murders occurred,
he didn't show up to work.He had a shift, he didn't show
up, he didn't call you neverwent back to work after that, And
(31:14):
that to me was I've raised that. I've raised that to him because every
every time I would be on TVwith him, I would go do my
OJ research and ask another question.The only thing he was he attempted to
but actually attempted to go interview OJwhen he was in prison in Nevada to
no avail. And so that wasjust something that he was never able to
do. It was a fascinating casethough, it really was, you know,
(31:40):
the I give Johnny Cochrane all thecredit. He also discovered my friend
Sean Chapman Hawley, who was apublic defender at the time, and kind
of picked her out and added herto the team. I think she was
the only female on the defense team. But I also have to say,
I don't think there's ever been youknow, they called it the dream team.
(32:01):
Maybe that's even where the term camefrom, but there's never been anything
like that, I think in anyhigh profile case like you had, and
you know, they're their own teamfor Murdoch or whatever, but like that,
that team was. It was likeBarrysheck for DNA, F Bailey,
Johnny. I mean, it's andyou know Robert Bob Shapiro, who is
(32:24):
a good friend of mine. I'mactually working on a case with him now.
He just sat at the council tolike he put the he put the
team together. But you had himand Kardashian who were sort of like the
managing partners of that, and thenyou had these amazing lawyers, you know.
So tell me why Kardashian had towithdraw? Did he have the murder
(32:50):
weapon? Did OJ give him themurder weapon? I've always thought that,
but oh that's interesting theory. Well, you know that there is uh O
J And I want to say Kardashianin particular got furious at Jeffrey Tuban because
yeah, it was Kardashian because therewere only apparently two people in the world
(33:15):
that knew that OJ had failed hispolygraph and when Jeffrey wrote his book,
somehow, some way he got knowledgethat OJ failed the polygraph, and Jim,
you know, speaking plainly speaking,you know about failing polygraphs. I
couldn't put a telegraph on my name. I mean, yeah, wait,
(33:42):
so could OJ two point zero getaway with it in twenty twenty four?
You think things have changed? Idon't. First of all, you know,
there are a lot of there werea lot of ramifications from that trial
that I didn't even I wasn't evenaware of. For example, one of
the reasons that we're not able towatch Donald Trump in court this week,
or Stormy Daniel's testimony is that afterJudge Edo became Judge Edo and did the
(34:07):
thing that judges do when they puton robes sometimes in front of cameras.
Uh. There were a lot ofmunicipalities, states, et cetera that took
cameras out of TVs, New YorkI mean cameras out of court rooms,
New York being one of them.And I had no idea that that was
the case. So there were alot of ramifications, I think detrimental ramifications.
Uh. So that's it's first ofall, if OJ was in South
(34:30):
Carolina, he would have been underthe prison. Yeah, no doubt.
LA is just a different breed.You don't. You don't La. Let
me say this, LA is adifferent breed. But that courthouse is a
different breed. The the that's ourcentral courthouse up the street from where I
live, and it's it pulls justthe best jury in the county. And
(34:54):
OJ's jury was predominantly black. SoI want that brings me to the next
question you kind of touched on,which is so he always sort of distanced
himself from the idea of being black, and he acted like he's white.
He is, his wife was white. He you know, I mean,
(35:15):
he was a celebrity. He wasan athlete, and he had privilege,
so he didn't you can't say hehad white privilege, but he had celebrity
privilege. And so how is itthat how do you reconcile the you know,
the color of his skin with reallyhis status. I mean, you
(35:37):
can't say it goes back to theis what I'm trying to say. It
goes back. It goes back tothe initial framing and how sometimes we have
to adjust our lens because I thinkyou're looking at OJ in this case as
an individual, when many black folksdid not look at him as an individual,
looked at a system that was unjust, and OJ was the latest victim
(35:58):
in that system. It's a lotlike how or to the conversation when in
civil rights cases and how we getcaught up in the individuals we have to
when we evaluate. When I evaluatethe criminal justice system, I don't evaluate
it based upon singular players are individualactors. I evaluated based upon what I
view as a as a system ofinjustice. Yeah, and that's how we
(36:21):
That's how a lot of people viewthe uh the O. J. Simpson
trial. Yeah, well, ChrisDarden is running for judge. I mean
I saw it. The only thingI know about Chris Chris Darden is that
he was about to represent Nipsey Hustle'skiller for like five minutes and that didn't
go well. No, he's he'sgiven credit for asking OJ to try the
(36:50):
glove on. I mean that wasyou know, whether he did it or
not, I've heard him being interviewedsaying, well, sometimes you just have
to go for broke. I guessthought they were losing at that point in
time, but that was apparently oJ didn't. You can tell me if
I'm wrong, but apparently o Jdidn't take his arthritis medicine that morning,
(37:10):
so his hand swollen and he hadand he you know, love on underneath
that, and he's an actor,and the blood, the blood makes it
shrink, you know, apparently youknow kind of yeah, the fabric,
but yeah, I mean the careI mean, Marshall Clark, I thought
was a good good. Yeah.I'm not sure about Chris Darting Chris Darden
(37:32):
law school. Huh since uh,since Johnny Cockran's closing. We've all when
we go try a criminal case,we're all looking for that tagline. Yeah,
I mean we're always trying to findit in our cases. And and
I don't think I've ever tried acase where someone didn't say the night before,
(37:52):
if it doesn't fit, you musthave quit. You know. That
was just perfect. That doesn't applyto any case, you know, So
you guys both in South Carolina.I was kind of following that Micah Miller
case and then the autopsy came backthat she committed suicide. I just thought
(38:13):
it was interesting because I mean,we're obviously this podcast about the presumption and
how media, you know, convictspeople, and literally this pastor, I
mean, I don't know what kindof a monster he is. There may
there may have been domestic violence,who knows, but literally he was convicted
in those days. But before theautopsy came out, the idea that oh
(38:36):
he must have killed her, hehad every reason to kill her, you
know, and the family's going afterand and so as it turns out,
you know, the cording to theautopsy there's suicide. Is there any concern
about it not having been suicide?I mean, is there because people are
still, you know, wondering.I know, I don't know enough about
(38:58):
that case. All I can tellyou is I saw it. Case was
in Orie County, and I knewit wasn't gonna make sense because nothing happened
along the coastline that makes sense,okay, And then it ended up in
Robinson County and in North Carolina,which is the same. Uh So,
by the way, I have acivil rights case in Robinson County right now,
and guess what, they don't havebody cameras, so uh, you
(39:22):
know, I feel like I feellike, uh is that where Myrtle is
that where Myrtle beaches? Myrtle beachis in Ori County. That's where.
Yeah, but she actually killed it. She killed herself in Robinson County.
Yes, that's true. In NorthCarolina. So I mean, Sarah,
then, I mean this is anothing burger. But I mean and and
(39:45):
you're just you're plugged into this thistoxic group out there. They're trying to
find injustice where it doesn't exist,and you know, they're trying to find
on the next Murdock case. Andthat's what exactly. You're right, you
guys are used to working in yoursystem. I think the Murdock case really
(40:08):
just put the spotlight on how differentthings are down there. My hat's off
to you, because I don't thinkI could practice law down there, and
I've been around the country, butit's uh so, I think that there's
also that because there's a lot ofstuff that happens in South Carolina that just
doesn't make the news. But Isaw this in Fitz News and I was
like, oh no, this isanother weird story in South Here he was
(40:30):
he seems to be a pretty terriblehuman being. Yeah, but there is
a there is a big jump frombeing a terrible human being. Yeah,
that's a that's a that's a jump, and I think that a lot of
people. Uh. I don't thinkhe'll do it because by being such an
(40:52):
awful human being, he can't sithis ass down for a deposition. But
there has been a lot of defamingof him going around. It's there's not
much he can do about it.You know. The first thing I would
do if he came to my officeand say, can you see X y
Z for defamation, I'd be like, Bro, you can't sit down for
no deposition. A videotape deposition ofyou as a pastor would destroy you.
(41:14):
You know. It's funny because Iyou know, I don't. I just
don't go there. You know.I'm not going to name names. But
a producer that Jim knows as wellreached out to me and said, sent
me the link of this story,you know, meaning we're gonna talk about
this time. And I said,well, I just looked it up.
Her autopsy came back. She diedby suicide. She made a call,
she's gonna go kill herself. Shebought a gun and she you know,
(41:36):
and they're like yeah, but andI said, I'm not going there.
I'm like, yeah, there's analibi. It was with his girlfriend and
somewhere else, so forget it,okay, before we let you go,
I saw you on C and Iwas like, I have to ask,
what the hell is going on withRFK Junior's brain and the warm please?
(42:00):
I don't know, man gym isfrom that generation. I'd have to let
him. You got to tell mewhat type of drugs and stuff? Yeah,
I am back in the day.I ate a lot of worms when
we got to the bottom of Yeah, I don't know if I feel bad
bad for RFK. I don't know. Is that I mean, I can't
(42:22):
like, I mean, it's sobizarre. This is a candidate, Like
it's so bizarre to me, Likewe're going Biden's old Trump's oil and then
this guy has like his brain goteaten by worms, Like what is that
real? Like what is going on? I saw you, like seriously standing
up with my friend Sarah Seidner andsomeone else and you're like having a serious
(42:43):
conversation about this. I don't knowhow serious I was. My advice was
that you shouldn't. I tell myclients to not get high before they do
depositions, because I felt like thatis That's probably where RFK Junior was but
that that that is for somebody elseto He got very defensive on on MSNBC
yesterday, Sarah, I want beforewe finished, I want to switch topics
(43:08):
very briefly. You know, Bacarihas his own podcast, and I'll tell
you, I didn't realize you hada podcast, McCary until I was on
a plane, a very long planeride, and I was listening to podcast
and ship there's Cary Seller. Iknow him. And you're interviewing Lebron James.
Do you remember that Lebron? Nowyou you were interviewing some NBA basketball
(43:32):
player? Do I have I interviewedVince Carter, Antoine Jamison. I haven't
interviewed Lebron yet, but I havea long list of than Danny Green.
No, I've interviewed Deshaun Watson.I've interviewed them all. I swear I'm
okay. So I'm totally confused.But beyond that, you're wearing a women's
Final four sweatshirt and you appear tobe an honorary member of the Women's Lady
(43:58):
Game Cops and Don Staley's toy Boy. Yeah, well there you go.
I come so close to the women'sbasketball team and I know it has to
be great fun. Oh, it'sa lot of fun. They are an
amazing group of women. Donna's isone of the you know, most amazing
him beings I've ever been around.She's a really good friend of mine.
(44:23):
My wife is a part and shetravels with us all the time. Uh,
Women's basketball, women's women's basket.Jesus, you guys are old and
antiquated. You can hang out withthe women's basketball team. It's all good.
It's the it's it's the sport thatI've loved for a long time.
To finally get the attention they deserve. And we're actually really really good,
(44:43):
so it makes it easy to lovethem. But shout out to those girls.
They do a lot of great work. The coaching staff is amazing.
Donna's is my sister friend, andI absolutely love them. All those girls
are like we all. They're likeall our little sisters. We take care
of them in this city always.So I got to tell you, Sarah
over Christmas this past year, twentytwenty three. But Cary says, Hey,
(45:07):
Jim, it's Christmas Eve. Yousaid, I've got a few people
coming over. How about stop byand have a have a drink? You
know, before Christmas, and Isaid, sure, I stopped by.
I showed up and it is thebiggest party that in Columbia has seen all
year. And uh, I thinkhalf half a Charlotte came down and they're
all these lucky there. We hadthe piano, we had Yes, some
(45:30):
people were some people were upset itand get invited. Yeah. Well,
there was a few of his closestfriends and and of course coach Staley was
there and and the car is niceenough to introduce me in. And she
was, you know, one ofmany many people who was glued to the
Murdock case. And she told methat on Wednesdays during the Murdoch trial,
(45:52):
they had basketball practice at like inthe morning, and so she made him
practice at five in the morning tobe done so she could watch the trial.
Everybody watch it. Everybody knows whoJim Griffin is watched. Actually,
you know what's funny, I justit just dawned on me. I was
talking to Bacary when the trial started. At the beginning, I was talking
(46:14):
to Bacary and he was in andout of court on his own cases.
He wasn't coming out there and whateverit's called, Walter whatever, Calton County.
Yeah, Walter bro and uh.And I like, of course assumed
he's probably there because he's got oneof the witnesses whatever. And so I
was like blowing up his phone withall my questions and and he's like,
you know, I don't go thereevery day, right, like my own
(46:37):
work. And I was like,oh yeah, and I did two days.
I did two days in the courtroomand that was that was enough enough?
Yeah, And then you said youreally should talk to Jim Griffin and
and as I was like, BrosenTrial, like he's not going to take
my call, and he sure did. So I was like I was stoked,
(46:57):
and I think you actually can.I'm sorry. I apologize to you.
That's I owe you on. I'mstill trying to find a right connection
for you, all right. Maggiesaid, hello guys, and thank you
so much. Yeah, so listen, thank you, thank you. I
know you're in an airport and yougot to go for taking time out of
(47:19):
your book tour, your marathon scheduleand all that stuff to be with us.
And people can find you on socialmedia South Carolina. They can find
your books on Amazon, and soI invite everybody to follow and follow book
sellers. Yeah, Jim, Ihighly recommend his children's book. I have
one from my grandchild and my grandchildon the way. We'll beginning another one
(47:44):
which I need you to sign heresoon. I got you always, and
then looking forward to reading your newbook. Yeah, me too. And
you can find us on all podcastplatforms as well as on YouTube. And
until next time, Jim, werest Nest
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