In this continued conversation, Sara and Jim are up close and personal with Chris Cuomo who shares about his vast coverage of the Natalie Holloway murder and Van her Sloot; serial killers including Rifkin; and the Menendez Brothers: did Chris change his mind about their defense or have the times changed? Chris dives deep into how the media chooses headline stories and the coverage of minority vs majority problems: why does Chris focus on a story about addiction that involves white vs black subjects? The hosts and Chris talk about Chris’ departure from CNN and his decision to join News Nation. And as it turns out Sara has a crush on Matt Lauer and doesn’t make the cut “bougie” fishing with Chris or Jim. Fun facts and good times with the Mo Man on this episode.
Art – Simon & Associates
Music – Caleb Fletcher
Art – Simon & Associates
Music – Caleb Fletcher
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:22):
Hi, everyone, Welcome back tothe Presumption and our continued conversation with Chris
Cuomo, also known as the moMan. You know, last week we
talked about the presumption of innocence,does he really believe in it? I
don't know? And Murdoch of course, Jim's case, and the fascinating series
that Chris did on HLN called InsideEvil, specifically the interview he did with
(00:46):
serial killer Joel Rifkin. And sotoday that conversation continues. We're going to
be talking about you're on vonder slout, and we're going to be also talking
about a little bit about the Menanda'sbrothers. You'll go beach Rex here men,
and so much more. Chris isgoing to talk to us about mental
illness, substance abuse, uh anda lot of personal things that he's been
(01:11):
through that are valuable to all ofyou. Jim, you want to get
into Natalie Holloway a little bit,Yeah, sure, Chris, you interviewed
you know, mispronounced his name.It's okay because you're from the South ran
(01:32):
ran or fonder slot. So youyou interviewed him before he had admitted murdering
Natalie Holloway. He was you know, prompts uspect. He got caught up
and we killed a girl down inSouth America a casino or something. But
you interviewed him about Natalie Holloway.Did you know he was lying to your
(01:53):
face when you're doing this? Doyou want to see the clip of that?
Do we have the clip? Maywe do? This has been in
the media. It's been in theprint media. It's been on television,
it's been on cable television. It'sbeen all over the place in America,
for sure. How do you thinkyou've been portrayed in all this? I
(02:16):
think I've portrayed unfairly. I've beenportrayed as a murderer and a rapist and
everything that I'm not. Vanderslowed hasbeen the main suspect in the case since
soon after admittedly lying to police aboutdropping Natalie off at her hotel. But
what other lies may he have told? And is he now finally telling the
(02:37):
truth? So you keep changing yourstory, but you don't tell them the
truth. Why not just tell themthe truth? Why didn't you? Because
I was scared? I was Ididn't want anyone to know. I didn't
want anyone know I left her atthe beach. Was he lying then,
or as you lie now, youleft out the best part, which I
(03:00):
call it the two step. It'san interviewing technique where the first question is
the open ended question that allows themto produce their own reality, which is
how they want you to believe it, and the counter is to check that
answer with what is offensive to commonsense about it? And what is offensive
(03:22):
to common sense in that situation,you don't lie to cops about what you
did with this woman when you didnot have anything to do with killing them.
You are obsessed with telling them everything. You want to talk to the
cops. Listen, this was notme. I was with her on the
beach. This is what happened thenI went there, whatever happened. You
(03:45):
are talking. You want to talkto everybody when you had nothing to do
with the crime. Why because you'redesperate to be understood. So the last
thing you're going to do is whathe did. Now people will offer you
an alternative psychologlogy where well, you'reafraid that they'll take it the wrong way,
so you're careful about architecting your storyso that they don't think it was
something it wasn't. I'm rare onthat, did I think he was lying.
(04:10):
Yes, But one, he's avery good sociopath. Okay, he's
a very profound sociopath. He wasalso a kid, okay, and it's
a kid doing something like this isless likely. I then intervi I reviewed
him two or three times. Actuallythis was before he had killed the woman
(04:35):
in Peru for looking at his laptops, which tells you everything you need to
know about the guy. But whatwas interesting about that story was, again,
you know, first principles, whoelse would have done it? You
know what I mean? The problemthere is that you don't have a body,
(04:57):
but that's not surprising either. Inthat place, the water, the
current is so strong, it goesout into a massive body of water so
quickly with such a with such atidal sweep, that it's easy to get
your body there. And the sadpart of that to me was trying to
understand the father's involvement, uh ifany And that was a really vexing situation
(05:20):
for a long time. You know, I just talked to Natalie's mother,
now, you know, with allthis intrigue about him, with the you
know, being extradited and finally admittingthat he did it, and what that
means for her, and that storybecame such a circus and was such an
(05:40):
interesting study in the phenomenon of mediaand help. People love to blame Idia,
but I'm telling you, I've beenin this business twenty five years,
okay, and you can you cancriticize this, and nothing is true all
the time. But the media tellsyou what you want to hear. If
(06:04):
you were interested in the funding billfor Ukraine, and that's what rated,
it's all we would do until itstops. And if you pay attention to
Natalie Holloway and you want to knowmore, then everybody's going to open an
Aruba bureau and we're all going togo down there. We're all going to
(06:26):
pay people who seem to know becauseyou want it. And if you say,
well, I can't get away fromit, I can't get away.
It's all over. I want realnews, one bullshit, because the things
that you say you don't care aboutalways rate the best. Okay. I
want international news. I want justthe facts. You're right. That's why
(06:47):
in political coverage it's eighty twenty confirmationbias and coverage that you go to the
place that says what you want tobe true. And this case was proof
of that if Natalie Holloway didn't ratefor successive days, it would automatically have
moved down in the lineups. Thisis an absolute matter of fact. The
(07:11):
media stays on nothing that doesn't rate, nor should it, by the way,
because you are serving the people's interests. And if this is what you're
interested in, then fine, butthat's on you, not on me.
You order from the restaurant, Ihave the menu, and if you order
off the menu, I'll give itto you. Sometimes I suggest things as
(07:31):
specials. You may like what Isuggest, you may not like what I
suggest, but it's your choice whatto eat. You know, here's what
we see there, Chris. Andyou're touching on the point that I was
going to ask next as and Ithink you were interviewed and called it debatable.
But I mean, you have abeautiful, attractive white woman who gets
(07:53):
goes missing in Aruba and every day. You know, I'm not here to
play the race card, but youknow, it happens. People get killed
every day in very similar situations andit doesn't make different page of the international
news. And and so it's youknow, there's some you know, it's
select selectivity. There's unfairness. Right, biased, there's unfairness. Look,
(08:20):
my feeling is this, Jordan Petersonis right, there's rarely a single factor
explanation to a complex situation. Okay. One, we're in a country that
is a majority white, so youshould not run away from white people.
And it is not bad to bewhite, and it is not bad to
cover things that happen to white people. A majority of your audience is white,
(08:43):
Okay, And if anything, Ithink that the news based on and
who gives it and what it's about. I think minorities are very well represented,
is not overrepresented by population. NowI'm okay with that over representation.
Increasingly people are not. So whyam I okay with it? Because I
believe the problems that are concentrated inminority populations are matter and are disproportionate in
(09:11):
those populations, and I think that'ssomething that society should want to address.
So Natalie Holloway was white. Mostof your audience is white. She was
a white, attractive female, whichaudiences tend to respond better to male and
female. And then you had allthe intrigue that went along with it in
terms of who did it. Nowdoes that story change as you change the
(09:35):
players. Absolutely. I went onthe view and I said, you know,
black people go missing as often aswhite people do, and actually even
more so, and you never coverthose because people don't care as much.
And why don't they care as much? One population? You tend to vibe
off what you are, right,You see familiarity. That could be my
daughter, that could be my friend, that could be with my sister whatever.
(09:58):
And two, there is a blamein minorities populations for their own problems.
Minorities do this and the majority doesthis, whereas yeah, well who
knows they don't take care of theirkids is probably on drugs. Probably,
you know, they impute all thesethings. That's why when I do drug
stories, I invariably have white suburbanaddicts in the story because I want the
(10:26):
relatability to be there. And we'vecome a long way with this where this
is not a ghetto problem. It'snot homies who are slinging rock and smoking
crack. It's your kid, misterand missus suburban who thinks it doesn't touch
you. We've done a good jobon that. It's important to do that
to show people that they have tohave an affinity to things. But that's
(10:50):
true look the lady that I'm coveringfrom South Florida. I covered that primarily
because it spooked me that, Wow, she's been gone how long and she's
really not like that, like immediatelyit went that way. She's also she's
an attractive female. And do Ithink that that's going to wind up getting
(11:11):
her residence with the media? Yeah? I do. I think it's the
reason that people are picking up onthe case right now. She's good looking,
the husband's good looking. TV's avisual medium. People like to see
people that they find attractive, andthey tend to have biases about people based
on how they look. It mattersif George Floyd is a white guy.
(11:31):
People will feel differently about it,and they will do a character analysis of
the black guy faster than they maydo it of the white guy. Rights
particularly parent about it. The wholeBlack Lives Matter, you know movement came
about in my opinion, because therehas been a lot of police brutality in
(11:52):
the black community. But until youknow it was filmed by someone's iPhone or
android, you know, it nevermade it to the media, and so
you know, just to the media, but phones helped the transparency helps being
able to show what you know helps, But look, what's our real problem,
(12:13):
Jim. And what Sarah is reallycomplaining about when she talks about the
presumption, and she's not wrong,is this American society is more pendular than
any other society I've ever covered.Why we're a heterogeneous group. We have
lots of different more rais and valuesystems only knitted together through the law,
which is going to be reflective ofthose more rays. We're young, We're
(12:37):
still developing as a culture. Youknow, we're only a couple hundred years
older, though most are you know, many hundreds, if not longer.
And we're pendular. So black livesmatter me too. Do these come out
of a good place? Yes?Do they come out of a real need?
Yes? But then how are theycarried? Often it because exaggerated,
(13:01):
and it winds up undercutting the fundament, initial proposition and value. So every
end and the biggest boogeyman in oursociety in my opinion, And I know
that this is unpopular, and Igo ahead, come at me. The
two party system is at the rootof all spit. We have adopted and
(13:24):
been steadily eroded and corroded by abinary battle to the bottom. Everything gets
passed through the filter. Everything hasto have a split. It is not
an irony that on the far leftyou find pro close to hamaf and on
(13:46):
the far right you find Israel cando no wrong. It is not a
coincidence that it splits down this line, because this is the filter of everything.
Even Taylor Swift, if you needto have an opinion on now,
that is a left right opinion thatplays into it. Also, that plays
(14:11):
into all of these things also,so singing of left versus right or the
two extremes. You know, you'vebeen talking about Menanda's brothers. I was
on talking about it, and wehad Mark on talking about it's this case.
Hera goes you also back in theday when you were young, and
like with the other interview, youinterviewed one of the brothers. I confused
(14:35):
their names when he was in prison. I think when you were at CNN
and you know, you pretty muchwere like, they did this. They
killed their parents, rich kids fromBeverly Hills. They're making privileged excuses.
They did kill their parents, right, but why madam, he had an
imperfect self defense. That was thedefense. Right. And so when you
(14:56):
were doing all these years that youwere following Menendez. At least that my
take, you weren't buying into thatself defense defense, and now it seems
like you're more open to it.So well, let's plage Matt Rowick from
the interview. Oh, you knowit is. It's a perceived weakness.
And I would submit that even myfriend Sarah is trying to use this as
(15:18):
a culgel against me right now.It is a weakness to change position.
Oh it's not. I just wantto know what changed, Like, let
me, let me, let mesay something, let me say something.
I'm on I'm all over the spectrumof abuse. I represent battered women,
I represent people accused of abuse orabusers. So I've seen it all.
(15:41):
But but I can't imagine, andMark said this too, that anybody,
any prosecutor, could get up todayand say, don't listen to the abuse
excuse. I mean that that's youknow me too. I mean that's all
it's about, right, So Iwant to know what changed your mind.
I mean a lot of people aresaying that's that's a good point. I
have changed. My mind has notchanged. No, because even if you
(16:07):
were abused, our system is notsophisticated enough to change the analysis of your
ability to form intent as a functionof of altered chemical triggers from trauma that
(16:29):
go into your process of forming intent. We're not there yet, I do
not believe right now. First ofall, I agree with your premise.
If the Menendez brothers thing happened todaywould be a very different conversation it was
back then, and that's a goodthing. However, I do not know
except for this new proof that ofcourse I'm open, Okay, I don't
(16:52):
see changing your position if the factschange as weakness. That's the problem with
the conflating of politics and science.In politics, you can't change your position
otherwise it's weakness, which is whypeople foolishly hold on to propositions long after
their due date. But in scienceand in any objective thing, you change
as the underlying data changes. Sothe letter from the cousin about how the
(17:15):
abuse had continued well into the stageof life where the murder occurred deserves attention.
Now is it material, is itcompetent? Is it convincing? That's
for the system to decide. Butso the facts changed, and when the
(17:40):
facts change, you should be open. And it is weakness intellectually and philosophically
to cling to a position that isno longer supported the same way I believe.
So that's what is changed. DoI believe that if you are currently
being sexually abused, you should beable to your abuser. No, unless
(18:02):
you are incapable of escaping the abusein that instant circumstance, and the abuse
is such that you believe there isa reasonable and serious fear that they may
kill you. Well, look atGypsy Rose. She's a celebrity. She
killed she got her mom killed withher boyfriend. The boyfriend's still doing time
because he didn't take a deal.He wanted to trial and lost on murder,
(18:23):
but she got out because she didtake a deal and on second on
I think it was a second degreeor no manslaughter, it was manslaughter.
And now she's a celebrity and shekilled her mom because she was being a
celebrity. Is again a uniquely Americanfilm for the law. Sure, but
I'm just saying, you know,she was also an abuse victim. But
(18:44):
you know, fast forward from Menendez, that too, was a different time.
I think a different level of awarenessright now, and I think that's
a good thing. Now. Whatwe don't want but we can't probably avoid,
is this pendular swing like everything elsethat happens, and we see that
also happening at least culturally, whereeverybody has an ism. Now everybody's a
(19:06):
victim. You can't even find somebodyanymore, no matter how successful they are,
who doesn't immediately have to give youa hard luck story. Yeah,
it's like Sarah and jim Oh thepodcast doing amazing. Good for you,
guys, You're so lucky. Holdon, you have no idea how long
I had to work for this.You have no idea. Back in the
day, I had nothing. Iwas selling papers. My parents come from
(19:27):
nothing. I come from nothing.I had to run for my life.
Everybody has to have a hard luckstory. Why because where we are in
our cultural conditioning, And you know, I observe all this and I look
all of this because that's my job. My job is to understand how what's
happening fits into context of why it'shappening. That's really what my job is.
(19:53):
Sometimes my job takes on different manifestationsbased on the exigencies of the moment,
but that's really what I am mostengaged in. And I see right
now anti establishment disruption is the newdividing line in our politics. Everybody's anti
(20:18):
establishment, anti elitist, and nowit's taking another step of anti the wealthy.
Now there's always been animus towards thewealthy, among the proletariat or those
who don't believe they are wealthy enough, but it is interesting in its extreme
manifestation among those who are wealthy,and it is creating a perversion of what
(20:42):
the American dream always was, whichwas an ability to fairly have an opportunity
to succeed or fail on your ownmerits. And the dream was to be
rich and to have the life thatyou want to have. And if that
(21:03):
means that you don't want to berich, then you don't have to be
rich. But that was part ofthe dream, especially in America, which
is a very consumer based culture.Now being rich is a bad thing,
But now it's swinging back. Sothat Trump getting hit with this big fine
for doing what rich people do.You now have these people coming out and
(21:26):
saying, well, then all commercialreal estate guys are going to go to
prison because they all play with theirbooks. And then other people say,
well, I don't get to dothat. See, so it's swings,
swings, it swings, and wehave to be careful of the amplitude and
the duration of the swings. AndI think that we see that in the
law and I see it in ourculture because they are related. So I
(21:51):
know, we got to wrap thisup because I know you have a show
and all these things. Do wejust jim at some questions for you on
a more personal level. But I, of course you know, uh,
I know the answers because I wentthrough a lot of this with you over
the past recent past. And afun fact for our listeners and viewers and
(22:14):
Matt and Jim, I've known Chrisway too long. I think we met
through a friend and then I sawstories for him, but way before I
was in front of camera and somuch. Huh. Sarah is much older
than I am by the way I'maging. Well then, I don't know.
(22:34):
I'm sorry. Yeah, uh soso so Jim. Uh you know,
always asks about you and and soI said, well, just ask
him yourself. You know, wehave him on the show. Yeah.
So, well I'm older than bothof you, and uh a lot older
actually, But but no, Chris, you went through your own hell at
CNN and your brother went through youknow, I was, I'll pull them
(22:57):
for both of you and and yourbrother, covering your brother and that being
governor and under the accusations he wasunder. I know that was a tough
time. I mean, how'd youget through it? And I know it
made you, made be a betterperson. But what's your advice to people
who are going through this maybe adifferent person. I don't know about better
(23:21):
and I don't know about being throughnow. I have a different perspective contrary
contrary to what I just explained aboutwhat's happening in our culture. Uh.
I believe that there's little appetite fromthe public, and there's a little appetite
for me from internally for lamentation.I don't see any real value in it
(23:45):
personally, and I don't think anybodygives a ship, and I don't think
anybody's feeling sorry for me, AndI think that there's good reason and bad
reason for that. And either wayI accept it. Am I through it?
No? Uh? It is hauntingand I am haunted and hunted.
And I am an outsider in themedia. I always have been. I've
always been a renegade within the media. They didn't want me in it to
(24:07):
begin with. They tried to kickme out early on. I had to
do all these jobs that I didn'twant to do. But that's how you
get into the businesses any way thatyou can. And I'm okay with all
of it. But you left Santaand it fell apart. I mean everyone
knows that. It's like a minuteyou left, the shit went down.
N I did not leave, wellI got five whatever the way, Well
(24:33):
it all crumbled once you were gone. So I used to kept I used
to keep telling Chris, you arethis network. I mean you're not just
the number one anchor in the primetime, but you you really pulled the network
in so many ways. So maybethey're working in there, but you kicked
ass, Chris. I've got totell you this. When Murdoch thing was
just popping back in, you know, I guess around Labor Day of twenty
(24:57):
twenty one, when the roads hadshooting happened. I think maybe you were
still a CNN and you kept callingHarpotle in for an interview and he said,
I don't I don't want to,I don't want to go on CNN
and talked to Chris Cuomalo, butyou never called me, Chris. I
mean I would have done it,shit, I would have had more hairline
I Paris analysis. Correlation is notcausation. I was shit canned. I
(25:21):
was shit canned for bad reason becauseI there could have been no more transparency
than I had with the audience andmy bosses. Everybody knew I was helping
my brother. Everybody knew I wasn'tcovering my brother, and everybody who needed
to know knew that I was notdoing any of the things that eventually the
media crowdsource as a consequence. Inever went after his accusers. I never
(25:45):
helped him go after his accusers.I told him, you're not allowed to
go after your accusers, whether that'sright or wrong, or fair or unfair.
His party has rules, and anallegation is enough under their rules.
And I never asked media to spinhis story for him. And we know
that that part has to be true, because there's zero chance that somebody wouldn't
(26:07):
raise their hand immediately and say whathe called me and asked me for a
favor. Because the media is notmy friend, so it's not like they're
protecting me. So that's why I'mstill in litigation. I'm okay with being
rejected by the business. I'm okaywith people saying, you know, what
you shouldn't be on TV when yourbrother's in ned. These are fine judgments.
(26:30):
I don't agree, but I understandthe judgments. But I did not
manipulate the media for my brother's advantage. I did not try to submarine his
accusers. That didn't happen, Andthe idea that my bosses were in any
way in the dark is demonstrably false. So I got to litigate why because
(26:52):
I don't like being hit over thehead with constantly being described as having been
fired for life buying about what Idid to help my brother, And I
don't care how many people say thatthey would have done the same things.
I didn't do those things that matters, and it's haunting. I had a
big platform. Was I the bigman at CNN? No, Anderson is
(27:15):
the big man at CNN, andrightly so. You got Jake Tapper on
politics. They got a whole teamthere that is probably as good as any
in the business. And I thinkCNN is going to be fine. I
have no problem with CNN. Icare about and respect a lot of the
people there, and I want thatplace to be nothing but successful. I
have no heart on for CNN.However, However, I did have a
(27:40):
big fucking platform. Yeah, andI had tremendous reach and I hate that
I lost it, and I didn'tunderstand how much it meant to me personally.
I didn't understand or appreciate how muchwhat I did was the function of
who I am. I always wouldsay to people, you know, I'm
not what I do like this ismy job. It really isn't a job
(28:03):
to me. It matters to mein a way that I didn't want to
acknowledge. And then I had toconfront when I got shit canned and all
these fake friends and everybody who hadsaid nice things, now we're doing the
opposite. I expected that that's thenature of the business. This is one
of the worst businesses I've ever beenaround my life. It makes politics look
like the pre But it was verydamaging to me because I had these ways.
(28:30):
You know, Sarah lived this withme. She's a tremendous friend,
tremendous friend, and I love her. I love her. I believe you
don't get to pick your relatives,but you do get to pick your family.
You get to pick who matters toyou, who you're going to be
there for. If you're a callaway in trouble. That's the measure for
me. That to me, that'slove. Is what's wrong with you?
Is important to me, is what'swrong with me? That's love. Maybe
(28:53):
people don't like that definition, butyou don't have to adopt it. It's
my own. And she was thereand a lot of peopeople in her position
would not be and demonstrably were not. But I then had these waves.
What happens when you go through afucked up situation is you have waves of
recognition. First you're in shock,right, and it's not like the stages
of grieving. But I then learnedat some point that Jim, that I
(29:21):
had done this to my wife andkids and to my friends, that I
had unconsciously even Sarah, like allthese people in my life, I had
put in a position to now haveto own my brother's situation, which I
was not aware of in the moment. And my therapist would say to me,
(29:45):
who's become like a life coach tome over the years, what are
you talking about? Do you knowhow many times I told you this was
going to happen? Do you knowhow many times I said that? And
I did offer twice based on hisadvice, I offered to quit. When
stuff would happen, I'd be like, well, this is this is fucking
crazy. I don't want to bringthis on CNN. And they didn't want
(30:07):
to lose me because I mattered toomuch to them, and because they knew
that it was bullshit, because theyknew what I was doing and not doing
so. Once I realized, ohmy god, not only did I fail
to keep my promise to my fatherto be my brother's keeping because I obviously
didn't help them because of everything thatwent wrong, but I did this to
(30:32):
my family. And my wife hasto own this, and her business has
to own this, and my kidshave to own this, and my son
is getting in scraps about this,and my daughters are getting savaged on social
media, and my friends are beingforced to have to say that they're okay
with a guy molesting eleven women,even though that's not even the nature of
the allegations. I was so angryat myself and in so much pain about
(30:57):
that that I really only had acouple options, which was one to just
surrender to that and become a victimof circumstance or own it go on an
apology tour. Not because I haddone wrong things. But men, when
(31:19):
you hurt people, whether you meanit or not, you know you've got
to you got it, You gotto own it. Uh. And it
is not easy, and it isvery destructive to your sense of self.
And I turned in words, uh, drank a lot, and eventually had
(31:41):
to stop that because I just wasn'table to be who I need to be.
I was just hiding from myself.And I decided eventually to just lean
on philosophy because that's always been mymy way. I'm not really a religious
person. I choose to have faith. I don't proselytize. I don't put
(32:04):
it on anybody else. I don'tbelieve it makes you a good or better
person. To me, it's justa reflection of my need and my desperation
for anything to help me get myselfto a lesser state of suck. So
my faith is not an indication ofanything other than my desperation. And I
just read a lot of philosophy andthought about it, and I had to
(32:25):
run away from my family because thepaparazzi were on my ass like it was
a chew toy. And I'd neverseen anything like it in the media.
Matt Lower told me he felt badfor me, and I was like,
holy shit, this is never toldme that crush on Matt Lower. I
saw I have a crush on MattLower, and you'd say, oh,
(32:46):
but his legs are so thin.He does have thin legs, yes,
tennis player legs. I'm like,I don't care about his legs. I
still think he's hot im and ofyour affections for he was very sympathetic to
me. He's always been very goodto me whenever I see him, and
we live in the same village.So I left. I had to run
(33:07):
away, went to Florida, andthen they found out I was in Florida
and DeSantis took a shot at me, which I didn't really care about at
that point, but I thought thatI was done. I'm never going back
into television. I'm never going backinto the media. Fucked them, and
now you're made for this. Thisis this is who I just realized,
(33:27):
all right, So what am Igonna do? What matters to me,
What gives me a sense of purpose? What makes all of the lousy things
that come along with whatever? Thatthing is worth it? You know,
like Sarah and I trained share abond when it comes to training, and
I fight train a lot. Idon't enjoy it very often. I usually
(33:50):
lose. I'm slow, I'm older. But the hardship of it is offset
by the sense of satisfact I getof the effort and of the thinking and
of the learning, and of thepermutations of thought and strategy that go into
self defense. Similarly, with themedia, I made a decision that I
(34:14):
want to help, and I seethe game that is played in politics with
the parties and media as well asanyone. I've been in it a long
time. I lived it in away no other journalist has, not,
just as the object of scrutiny,but I lived politics and the way other
people can only talk to people about. I've been a part of a dozen
(34:35):
different campaigns. I've heard multiple presidentsfrom different parties and governors and senators when
there's no camera around, when they'renot speaking for the media, talk to
one another about what matters and whyand what's happening and what isn't. And
I have conversations with the lawmakers tothis morning and afternoon and day that other
journalists do not have. And Ithought that that mattered, and that I
(34:59):
wanted to do something with it.And it's not that I was co opted
by CNN. When people say Ilike you, No, I didn't like
you at CNN. No, it'sCNN. You don't like I'm the same
guy. I just got a differentset of initials on my T shirt.
And I have a little different perspectivenow because part of coming back from it
was all right, well, here'sthe first thing. My family's got to
(35:19):
be okay with it, and theygot to know what it's going to entail
and what it's not going to entail. And I'm actually going to have this
conversation overtly this time in a waythat it was never had with me with
my family when my father decided togo into public service, and in a
way that I never had with them. And if they say no, that
I'm not doing it. And onceI knew that they were okay with it
(35:40):
and they understood it, I thenhad to find an outlet who would let
me do only what I want todo. And between the ones who didn't
want to touch me because I wasradioactive because of my brother, and those
that I didn't want to touch becauseI don't like what they're about. News
(36:01):
Nation was kind of a gift becauseit was a place that was looking for
a sense of purpose and its senseof purpose. You know, news Nation
is the only news organization where thename of it reflects the audience instead of
itself. If you think about it, every other set of initials, every
(36:22):
other acronym is about the entity.News Nation is reflective of the audience.
America is News Nation and the ideaof serving them and being over in the
advocacy of diagnosing what is happening inpolitics and media in larger society that is
good and bad for it, Ifelt was uniquely suited to me. So
(36:44):
I decided to do it, eventhough it was embarrassing to get back into
the media and that I knew peoplewould judge me and they would write nasty
shit and they'd ignore anything that Ido because they had done that anyway.
They just had to pay attention.When I was at CNN, we were
too powered, and I knew thatthat was all going to happen. And
I had to get straight with myselfabout what matters to me? What are
(37:07):
my metrics, what is my valueproposition? What do I want? I
wanted to help, I wanted toexpose the game. I wanted to only
pick fights that matter, and Iwanted to talk to the people that you're
not supposed to talk to, andI knew it was going to piss people
(37:28):
off. I was always a manwithout a team, but I was always
believed to be on the left becausemy name is Cuomo, although anyone who
knows me will know that that isnot what squares with my personal set of
issues. But they don't really matter. And there's something to me that's interesting
and fun about the fact that peoplethink that I am something that I am
(37:49):
I am not. That's okay,but in all fairness that I'm not being
biased. I mean, you're oneof the few. You're the only journalists
that I really have seen that doesn't. I mean, you treat everybody fairly.
You bring people on from both sidesof the aisle, and you push
back on both sides of the aisle. So I but that benefit to me,
(38:12):
despising what they are all a partof, you see, because my
problem is the system that they're in. Yeah. I get the Democrats saying
that they believe that the Republican ismore toxified. I think they have a
fair argument. Is it a completeargument? No, But it's hard to
look at what Trump has done tothe GOP and not see that they are
more advanced in their perversion of typethan the Democrats are at this point because
(38:36):
we haven't had a dominant figure infectthe Democratic Party the way Trump did the
GOP. My point is it doesn'tmatter whether or not they are equal combatants
if the combat itself is poisonous,and to me, the party system has
(38:57):
failed us. It can only failus, and will only ever fail us.
So I'll bring you on. I'llpolice your argument, but I'm not
going to pick aside because I hatethe game and I know it gives me
a smaller audience. I understand.I know why Tucker Carlson does what he
does. I know why Rachel Maddowdoes. I know why Chris Hayes does.
(39:21):
I know why Read does. Ido not fault them for this.
I believe their beliefs are probably genuinethat I don't know about Tucker as much.
But I don't want to be partof a side of a game that
I think is destructive to people's interestsand to the democracy. So it's easy
for me to have on people I'mnot supposed to go with. It's easy
(39:44):
for me to go and sit witha bunch of conservatives. They don't.
I'm not troubled by people's beliefs.I'm troubled about what they do and don't
do as a function of those beliefs. So I think we need more of
it and more and more. I'mgoing to have people on my shop.
Oh that people don't like, youknow. I had on the Green Prince
about what's happening in Israel, andhe is very Prosionist and anti Hamas,
(40:09):
and all the pro Palestinian people wentbad on me, even though the guy
his father is one of the foundersof Hamas, and they all said,
I hate Palestinians. I have onBesim Yusef, who is the Egyptian John
Stewart, and he makes the casefor how Arabs see Israeli occupation. Oh
(40:29):
my god, I've gone bad onthe IDF. I've gone bad on the
Zionis why because everybody's got to processit to his side is open. And
I am now an advocate, AndI know journalists aren't supposed to say that,
but I am saying it. Iam an advocate for people to leave
the parties, to become free agents, to be independent, critical thinkers and
(40:53):
force the system to change such thatprimaries are open, so we stop being
held hostage by the fringe, becausethat's where they get you as in the
primary structure, and we see iteverywhere. It corrodes law and justice.
Look what's happening in our politics wherewe now spend more time prosecuting our opponents
(41:17):
than working with them for store anddebating against them. We prosecute, that's
what we do. And one sidewill say this is terrible, look at
what they're doing, and as soonas they have the numbers, they do
the same fucking day. Why becauseit works, and that's why we all
have a mutual enemy, and itis the game attacked the game. So
(41:42):
that reminds me. I got tosend some free agent merchandise to Jim because
I bought a bunch of stuff.The money goes to charities, right christ
trying to get a big, toughnumber where I'll be impressed when I give
it away. So right now,I bought so much. I bought like
twenty worth of stuff. I likeit. You're only like three times behind
me. I. So here's thething. So right now I'm doing what
(42:06):
only I can do, which ismake a good idea bad because I'm going
to have this. I'm not havinga looming tax burden because I have the
money. So technically it's income becauseI haven't set up through any other organization,
and I'm waiting for it to getimpressive enough. It's like fifteen grand,
but I want to like fifty Iwanted seventy five, you know,
I wanted to be able to makea number of donations in the name of
(42:30):
these people to universal causes that'll belike impressive to me, you know.
I mean, I got like fifteenseventeen grand right now, and I know
people get to, Oh, it'sso much money. No, it's not.
It's not enough for me to feellike we're really doing something. So
right now, I'm just you know, holding onto income that I'm sure i'll
(42:51):
get audited for at some point.But that's two. We've got two fishermen
here, Jim Griffin and Chris Cuomo. I'm waiting for my invite on y'all's
boats, the suppers on a fishingWhy you are about big sunglasses? Can
(43:14):
appropriate? Oh my god, you'retalking about me showing your text messages?
All right, that was a violation, But I don't know but next you
again, don't we have Matt.Don't we have these pictures from Chris that
from that Jim was Jim was dissingus the impressive fish. Yeah, yet
(43:37):
we don't get elephant anymore. Whatdo you talk about. It's not a
real fish. No, she saysthat photo of you holding that yellowphant Tenna's
photoshop that you got Arnold to makethem. Arnold would be insulted. Now
(43:58):
I've had people ask me and supposedto that does he take something? Does
he do testacia? I said,no, that guy. I was like
that guy. First of all,I was the one trying to get you
on like regular supplements, you know. But look now you want to see
what I'm taking every day now twicea day. Look at all? I
(44:20):
know? Well that yeah, wellthis is my new COVID detalk. You
know I started that substack. Yeahto uh showcase. I mean, you
get my podcast, the Chris PlomoProject. You can get it without ads
on the substack because a lot ofpeople get pissed off about ads, as
you guys know. But the realcause of it is it's a community for
(44:42):
long COVID of clinicians and people whoare struggling with it to kind of get
on the same page and share ideas. So what I'm doing for it is
I had all the tests done reallyfucking depressing, by the way, what
they showed me in my blood.That's proof of this spike protein from the
virus and or the vaccine. It'sunclear because they both have spiked protein in
(45:07):
them, and how my blood haschanged and the blood chemistry has changed because
I have long COVID and I'm nowon a protocol to try to get it
better, and I'm letting everybody goto school on me. So you'll see
my intake interview with the doctor andshe'll explain all of this about why they
believe what they believe, and thenyou'll see what my blood work revealed.
(45:29):
Is going to come next after that, and then you're going to see the
protocol that's on and then I'll startreporting about you know, on that on
that substack, because it's you know, and a lot of people don't give
a shit, you know, Soit's for people who do you know.
I have to I actually have totalk to you later off the record because
I I have developed weird stuff inmy cardiovascular and blood that I think is
(45:50):
from the vaccine because there's no otherexplanation for it. But it's not it.
But I did get the vaccines,a bunch of vaccine. I have
tests now where they can tell youand I'll hook you up with Terrain Health
doctor Rose that I'm using. Ireally I spent about a week and a
half, which you know, forme is an eternity going through uh their
research, you know, being inthis a long time, and the and
the training, and we have anability to process things real fast in this
(46:15):
business, you know. So forme to spend a week and a half
digging into something that's that's a longtime. So the research it's it's fairly
plenary at this point. I mean, you know, it's this bite protein
is more indicative of than anything else, of of anything that unites all of
these different types of symptoms people have. But anyway, if people want to
(46:37):
check out the substack, they can. I got to jump and I appreciate
you guys very much. I lookforward to I love you friend. Thank
you so much for joining us somuch. Chris and we will we are
available to join the Cuomo project ifyou want to do an A to Z
like crime headline break down. MyTEP have to find the right text and
(46:59):
photo they sent me announced and thereyou go. On. Please don't ask
Jim for my photos. He doesn'thave any. No, I haven't.
I don't need it. I gotnothing. I got nothing. Thank you
again to our friend Chris Cuomo,who's been so wonderful to us, and
we hope to talk to him morein the future and join him on his
(47:20):
podcast, The Cuomo Project. Andwe thank all of you for listening.
Yeah, we couldn't do without youguys. Thanks for all your support.
And if this is your first timelistening to our show, we have so
many more episodes you can listen to. We are called The Presumption. We're
on all the podcast platforms at thePresumption. We're on YouTube at the Presumption,
follow us on Twitter and Instagram atthe Presumption. I don't know how
(47:44):
else to say it. Thank youguys, all the Presumption at the Presumption.
Thank you guys so much, anduntil next time, Sarah and Jim be Rich
Hi, everyone, Welcome back tothe Presumption and our continued conversation with Chris
Cuomo, also known as the moMan. You know, last week we
talked about the presumption of innocence,does he really believe in it? I
don't know? And Murdoch of course, Jim's case, and the fascinating series
that Chris did on HLN called InsideEvil, specifically the interview he did with
(00:46):
serial killer Joel Rifkin. And sotoday that conversation continues. We're going to
be talking about you're on vonder slout, and we're going to be also talking
about a little bit about the Menanda'sbrothers. You'll go beach Rex here men,
and so much more. Chris isgoing to talk to us about mental
illness, substance abuse, uh anda lot of personal things that he's been
(01:11):
through that are valuable to all ofyou. Jim, you want to get
into Natalie Holloway a little bit,Yeah, sure, Chris, you interviewed
you know, mispronounced his name.It's okay because you're from the South ran
(01:32):
ran or fonder slot. So youyou interviewed him before he had admitted murdering
Natalie Holloway. He was you know, prompts uspect. He got caught up
and we killed a girl down inSouth America a casino or something. But
you interviewed him about Natalie Holloway.Did you know he was lying to your
(01:53):
face when you're doing this? Doyou want to see the clip of that?
Do we have the clip? Maywe do? This has been in
the media. It's been in theprint media. It's been on television,
it's been on cable television. It'sbeen all over the place in America,
for sure. How do you thinkyou've been portrayed in all this? I
(02:16):
think I've portrayed unfairly. I've beenportrayed as a murderer and a rapist and
everything that I'm not. Vanderslowed hasbeen the main suspect in the case since
soon after admittedly lying to police aboutdropping Natalie off at her hotel. But
what other lies may he have told? And is he now finally telling the
(02:37):
truth? So you keep changing yourstory, but you don't tell them the
truth. Why not just tell themthe truth? Why didn't you? Because
I was scared? I was Ididn't want anyone to know. I didn't
want anyone know I left her atthe beach. Was he lying then,
or as you lie now, youleft out the best part, which I
(03:00):
call it the two step. It'san interviewing technique where the first question is
the open ended question that allows themto produce their own reality, which is
how they want you to believe it, and the counter is to check that
answer with what is offensive to commonsense about it? And what is offensive
(03:22):
to common sense in that situation,you don't lie to cops about what you
did with this woman when you didnot have anything to do with killing them.
You are obsessed with telling them everything. You want to talk to the
cops. Listen, this was notme. I was with her on the
beach. This is what happened thenI went there, whatever happened. You
(03:45):
are talking. You want to talkto everybody when you had nothing to do
with the crime. Why because you'redesperate to be understood. So the last
thing you're going to do is whathe did. Now people will offer you
an alternative psychologlogy where well, you'reafraid that they'll take it the wrong way,
so you're careful about architecting your storyso that they don't think it was
something it wasn't. I'm rare onthat, did I think he was lying.
(04:10):
Yes, But one, he's avery good sociopath. Okay, he's
a very profound sociopath. He wasalso a kid, okay, and it's
a kid doing something like this isless likely. I then intervi I reviewed
him two or three times. Actuallythis was before he had killed the woman
(04:35):
in Peru for looking at his laptops, which tells you everything you need to
know about the guy. But whatwas interesting about that story was, again,
you know, first principles, whoelse would have done it? You
know what I mean? The problemthere is that you don't have a body,
(04:57):
but that's not surprising either. Inthat place, the water, the
current is so strong, it goesout into a massive body of water so
quickly with such a with such atidal sweep, that it's easy to get
your body there. And the sadpart of that to me was trying to
understand the father's involvement, uh ifany And that was a really vexing situation
(05:20):
for a long time. You know, I just talked to Natalie's mother,
now, you know, with allthis intrigue about him, with the you
know, being extradited and finally admittingthat he did it, and what that
means for her, and that storybecame such a circus and was such an
(05:40):
interesting study in the phenomenon of mediaand help. People love to blame Idia,
but I'm telling you, I've beenin this business twenty five years,
okay, and you can you cancriticize this, and nothing is true all
the time. But the media tellsyou what you want to hear. If
(06:04):
you were interested in the funding billfor Ukraine, and that's what rated,
it's all we would do until itstops. And if you pay attention to
Natalie Holloway and you want to knowmore, then everybody's going to open an
Aruba bureau and we're all going togo down there. We're all going to
(06:26):
pay people who seem to know becauseyou want it. And if you say,
well, I can't get away fromit, I can't get away.
It's all over. I want realnews, one bullshit, because the things
that you say you don't care aboutalways rate the best. Okay. I
want international news. I want justthe facts. You're right. That's why
(06:47):
in political coverage it's eighty twenty confirmationbias and coverage that you go to the
place that says what you want tobe true. And this case was proof
of that if Natalie Holloway didn't ratefor successive days, it would automatically have
moved down in the lineups. Thisis an absolute matter of fact. The
(07:11):
media stays on nothing that doesn't rate, nor should it, by the way,
because you are serving the people's interests. And if this is what you're
interested in, then fine, butthat's on you, not on me.
You order from the restaurant, Ihave the menu, and if you order
off the menu, I'll give itto you. Sometimes I suggest things as
(07:31):
specials. You may like what Isuggest, you may not like what I
suggest, but it's your choice whatto eat. You know, here's what
we see there, Chris. Andyou're touching on the point that I was
going to ask next as and Ithink you were interviewed and called it debatable.
But I mean, you have abeautiful, attractive white woman who gets
(07:53):
goes missing in Aruba and every day. You know, I'm not here to
play the race card, but youknow, it happens. People get killed
every day in very similar situations andit doesn't make different page of the international
news. And and so it's youknow, there's some you know, it's
select selectivity. There's unfairness. Right, biased, there's unfairness. Look,
(08:20):
my feeling is this, Jordan Petersonis right, there's rarely a single factor
explanation to a complex situation. Okay. One, we're in a country that
is a majority white, so youshould not run away from white people.
And it is not bad to bewhite, and it is not bad to
cover things that happen to white people. A majority of your audience is white,
(08:43):
Okay, And if anything, Ithink that the news based on and
who gives it and what it's about. I think minorities are very well represented,
is not overrepresented by population. NowI'm okay with that over representation.
Increasingly people are not. So whyam I okay with it? Because I
believe the problems that are concentrated inminority populations are matter and are disproportionate in
(09:11):
those populations, and I think that'ssomething that society should want to address.
So Natalie Holloway was white. Mostof your audience is white. She was
a white, attractive female, whichaudiences tend to respond better to male and
female. And then you had allthe intrigue that went along with it in
terms of who did it. Nowdoes that story change as you change the
(09:35):
players. Absolutely. I went onthe view and I said, you know,
black people go missing as often aswhite people do, and actually even
more so, and you never coverthose because people don't care as much.
And why don't they care as much? One population? You tend to vibe
off what you are, right,You see familiarity. That could be my
daughter, that could be my friend, that could be with my sister whatever.
(09:58):
And two, there is a blamein minorities populations for their own problems.
Minorities do this and the majority doesthis, whereas yeah, well who
knows they don't take care of theirkids is probably on drugs. Probably,
you know, they impute all thesethings. That's why when I do drug
stories, I invariably have white suburbanaddicts in the story because I want the
(10:26):
relatability to be there. And we'vecome a long way with this where this
is not a ghetto problem. It'snot homies who are slinging rock and smoking
crack. It's your kid, misterand missus suburban who thinks it doesn't touch
you. We've done a good jobon that. It's important to do that
to show people that they have tohave an affinity to things. But that's
(10:50):
true look the lady that I'm coveringfrom South Florida. I covered that primarily
because it spooked me that, Wow, she's been gone how long and she's
really not like that, like immediatelyit went that way. She's also she's
an attractive female. And do Ithink that that's going to wind up getting
(11:11):
her residence with the media? Yeah? I do. I think it's the
reason that people are picking up onthe case right now. She's good looking,
the husband's good looking. TV's avisual medium. People like to see
people that they find attractive, andthey tend to have biases about people based
on how they look. It mattersif George Floyd is a white guy.
(11:31):
People will feel differently about it,and they will do a character analysis of
the black guy faster than they maydo it of the white guy. Rights
particularly parent about it. The wholeBlack Lives Matter, you know movement came
about in my opinion, because therehas been a lot of police brutality in
(11:52):
the black community. But until youknow it was filmed by someone's iPhone or
android, you know, it nevermade it to the media, and so
you know, just to the media, but phones helped the transparency helps being
able to show what you know helps, But look, what's our real problem,
(12:13):
Jim. And what Sarah is reallycomplaining about when she talks about the
presumption, and she's not wrong,is this American society is more pendular than
any other society I've ever covered.Why we're a heterogeneous group. We have
lots of different more rais and valuesystems only knitted together through the law,
which is going to be reflective ofthose more rays. We're young, We're
(12:37):
still developing as a culture. Youknow, we're only a couple hundred years
older, though most are you know, many hundreds, if not longer.
And we're pendular. So black livesmatter me too. Do these come out
of a good place? Yes?Do they come out of a real need?
Yes? But then how are theycarried? Often it because exaggerated,
(13:01):
and it winds up undercutting the fundament, initial proposition and value. So every
end and the biggest boogeyman in oursociety in my opinion, And I know
that this is unpopular, and Igo ahead, come at me. The
two party system is at the rootof all spit. We have adopted and
(13:24):
been steadily eroded and corroded by abinary battle to the bottom. Everything gets
passed through the filter. Everything hasto have a split. It is not
an irony that on the far leftyou find pro close to hamaf and on
(13:46):
the far right you find Israel cando no wrong. It is not a
coincidence that it splits down this line, because this is the filter of everything.
Even Taylor Swift, if you needto have an opinion on now,
that is a left right opinion thatplays into it. Also, that plays
(14:11):
into all of these things also,so singing of left versus right or the
two extremes. You know, you'vebeen talking about Menanda's brothers. I was
on talking about it, and wehad Mark on talking about it's this case.
Hera goes you also back in theday when you were young, and
like with the other interview, youinterviewed one of the brothers. I confused
(14:35):
their names when he was in prison. I think when you were at CNN
and you know, you pretty muchwere like, they did this. They
killed their parents, rich kids fromBeverly Hills. They're making privileged excuses.
They did kill their parents, right, but why madam, he had an
imperfect self defense. That was thedefense. Right. And so when you
(14:56):
were doing all these years that youwere following Menendez. At least that my
take, you weren't buying into thatself defense defense, and now it seems
like you're more open to it.So well, let's plage Matt Rowick from
the interview. Oh, you knowit is. It's a perceived weakness.
And I would submit that even myfriend Sarah is trying to use this as
(15:18):
a culgel against me right now.It is a weakness to change position.
Oh it's not. I just wantto know what changed, Like, let
me, let me, let mesay something, let me say something.
I'm on I'm all over the spectrumof abuse. I represent battered women,
I represent people accused of abuse orabusers. So I've seen it all.
(15:41):
But but I can't imagine, andMark said this too, that anybody,
any prosecutor, could get up todayand say, don't listen to the abuse
excuse. I mean that that's youknow me too. I mean that's all
it's about, right, So Iwant to know what changed your mind.
I mean a lot of people aresaying that's that's a good point. I
have changed. My mind has notchanged. No, because even if you
(16:07):
were abused, our system is notsophisticated enough to change the analysis of your
ability to form intent as a functionof of altered chemical triggers from trauma that
(16:29):
go into your process of forming intent. We're not there yet, I do
not believe right now. First ofall, I agree with your premise.
If the Menendez brothers thing happened todaywould be a very different conversation it was
back then, and that's a goodthing. However, I do not know
except for this new proof that ofcourse I'm open, Okay, I don't
(16:52):
see changing your position if the factschange as weakness. That's the problem with
the conflating of politics and science.In politics, you can't change your position
otherwise it's weakness, which is whypeople foolishly hold on to propositions long after
their due date. But in scienceand in any objective thing, you change
as the underlying data changes. Sothe letter from the cousin about how the
(17:15):
abuse had continued well into the stageof life where the murder occurred deserves attention.
Now is it material, is itcompetent? Is it convincing? That's
for the system to decide. Butso the facts changed, and when the
(17:40):
facts change, you should be open. And it is weakness intellectually and philosophically
to cling to a position that isno longer supported the same way I believe.
So that's what is changed. DoI believe that if you are currently
being sexually abused, you should beable to your abuser. No, unless
(18:02):
you are incapable of escaping the abusein that instant circumstance, and the abuse
is such that you believe there isa reasonable and serious fear that they may
kill you. Well, look atGypsy Rose. She's a celebrity. She
killed she got her mom killed withher boyfriend. The boyfriend's still doing time
because he didn't take a deal.He wanted to trial and lost on murder,
(18:23):
but she got out because she didtake a deal and on second on
I think it was a second degreeor no manslaughter, it was manslaughter.
And now she's a celebrity and shekilled her mom because she was being a
celebrity. Is again a uniquely Americanfilm for the law. Sure, but
I'm just saying, you know,she was also an abuse victim. But
(18:44):
you know, fast forward from Menendez, that too, was a different time.
I think a different level of awarenessright now, and I think that's
a good thing. Now. Whatwe don't want but we can't probably avoid,
is this pendular swing like everything elsethat happens, and we see that
also happening at least culturally, whereeverybody has an ism. Now everybody's a
(19:06):
victim. You can't even find somebodyanymore, no matter how successful they are,
who doesn't immediately have to give youa hard luck story. Yeah,
it's like Sarah and jim Oh thepodcast doing amazing. Good for you,
guys, You're so lucky. Holdon, you have no idea how long
I had to work for this.You have no idea. Back in the
day, I had nothing. Iwas selling papers. My parents come from
(19:27):
nothing. I come from nothing.I had to run for my life.
Everybody has to have a hard luckstory. Why because where we are in
our cultural conditioning, And you know, I observe all this and I look
all of this because that's my job. My job is to understand how what's
happening fits into context of why it'shappening. That's really what my job is.
(19:53):
Sometimes my job takes on different manifestationsbased on the exigencies of the moment,
but that's really what I am mostengaged in. And I see right
now anti establishment disruption is the newdividing line in our politics. Everybody's anti
(20:18):
establishment, anti elitist, and nowit's taking another step of anti the wealthy.
Now there's always been animus towards thewealthy, among the proletariat or those
who don't believe they are wealthy enough, but it is interesting in its extreme
manifestation among those who are wealthy,and it is creating a perversion of what
(20:42):
the American dream always was, whichwas an ability to fairly have an opportunity
to succeed or fail on your ownmerits. And the dream was to be
rich and to have the life thatyou want to have. And if that
(21:03):
means that you don't want to berich, then you don't have to be
rich. But that was part ofthe dream, especially in America, which
is a very consumer based culture.Now being rich is a bad thing,
But now it's swinging back. Sothat Trump getting hit with this big fine
for doing what rich people do.You now have these people coming out and
(21:26):
saying, well, then all commercialreal estate guys are going to go to
prison because they all play with theirbooks. And then other people say,
well, I don't get to dothat. See, so it's swings,
swings, it swings, and wehave to be careful of the amplitude and
the duration of the swings. AndI think that we see that in the
law and I see it in ourculture because they are related. So I
(21:51):
know, we got to wrap thisup because I know you have a show
and all these things. Do wejust jim at some questions for you on
a more personal level. But I, of course you know, uh,
I know the answers because I wentthrough a lot of this with you over
the past recent past. And afun fact for our listeners and viewers and
(22:14):
Matt and Jim, I've known Chrisway too long. I think we met
through a friend and then I sawstories for him, but way before I
was in front of camera and somuch. Huh. Sarah is much older
than I am by the way I'maging. Well then, I don't know.
(22:34):
I'm sorry. Yeah, uh soso so Jim. Uh you know,
always asks about you and and soI said, well, just ask
him yourself. You know, wehave him on the show. Yeah.
So, well I'm older than bothof you, and uh a lot older
actually, But but no, Chris, you went through your own hell at
CNN and your brother went through youknow, I was, I'll pull them
(22:57):
for both of you and and yourbrother, covering your brother and that being
governor and under the accusations he wasunder. I know that was a tough
time. I mean, how'd youget through it? And I know it
made you, made be a betterperson. But what's your advice to people
who are going through this maybe adifferent person. I don't know about better
(23:21):
and I don't know about being throughnow. I have a different perspective contrary
contrary to what I just explained aboutwhat's happening in our culture. Uh.
I believe that there's little appetite fromthe public, and there's a little appetite
for me from internally for lamentation.I don't see any real value in it
(23:45):
personally, and I don't think anybodygives a ship, and I don't think
anybody's feeling sorry for me, AndI think that there's good reason and bad
reason for that. And either wayI accept it. Am I through it?
No? Uh? It is hauntingand I am haunted and hunted.
And I am an outsider in themedia. I always have been. I've
always been a renegade within the media. They didn't want me in it to
(24:07):
begin with. They tried to kickme out early on. I had to
do all these jobs that I didn'twant to do. But that's how you
get into the businesses any way thatyou can. And I'm okay with all
of it. But you left Santaand it fell apart. I mean everyone
knows that. It's like a minuteyou left, the shit went down.
N I did not leave, wellI got five whatever the way, Well
(24:33):
it all crumbled once you were gone. So I used to kept I used
to keep telling Chris, you arethis network. I mean you're not just
the number one anchor in the primetime, but you you really pulled the network
in so many ways. So maybethey're working in there, but you kicked
ass, Chris. I've got totell you this. When Murdoch thing was
just popping back in, you know, I guess around Labor Day of twenty
(24:57):
twenty one, when the roads hadshooting happened. I think maybe you were
still a CNN and you kept callingHarpotle in for an interview and he said,
I don't I don't want to,I don't want to go on CNN
and talked to Chris Cuomalo, butyou never called me, Chris. I
mean I would have done it,shit, I would have had more hairline
I Paris analysis. Correlation is notcausation. I was shit canned. I
(25:21):
was shit canned for bad reason becauseI there could have been no more transparency
than I had with the audience andmy bosses. Everybody knew I was helping
my brother. Everybody knew I wasn'tcovering my brother, and everybody who needed
to know knew that I was notdoing any of the things that eventually the
media crowdsource as a consequence. Inever went after his accusers. I never
(25:45):
helped him go after his accusers.I told him, you're not allowed to
go after your accusers, whether that'sright or wrong, or fair or unfair.
His party has rules, and anallegation is enough under their rules.
And I never asked media to spinhis story for him. And we know
that that part has to be true, because there's zero chance that somebody wouldn't
(26:07):
raise their hand immediately and say whathe called me and asked me for a
favor. Because the media is notmy friend, so it's not like they're
protecting me. So that's why I'mstill in litigation. I'm okay with being
rejected by the business. I'm okaywith people saying, you know, what
you shouldn't be on TV when yourbrother's in ned. These are fine judgments.
(26:30):
I don't agree, but I understandthe judgments. But I did not
manipulate the media for my brother's advantage. I did not try to submarine his
accusers. That didn't happen, Andthe idea that my bosses were in any
way in the dark is demonstrably false. So I got to litigate why because
(26:52):
I don't like being hit over thehead with constantly being described as having been
fired for life buying about what Idid to help my brother, And I
don't care how many people say thatthey would have done the same things.
I didn't do those things that matters, and it's haunting. I had a
big platform. Was I the bigman at CNN? No, Anderson is
(27:15):
the big man at CNN, andrightly so. You got Jake Tapper on
politics. They got a whole teamthere that is probably as good as any
in the business. And I thinkCNN is going to be fine. I
have no problem with CNN. Icare about and respect a lot of the
people there, and I want thatplace to be nothing but successful. I
have no heart on for CNN.However, However, I did have a
(27:40):
big fucking platform. Yeah, andI had tremendous reach and I hate that
I lost it, and I didn'tunderstand how much it meant to me personally.
I didn't understand or appreciate how muchwhat I did was the function of
who I am. I always wouldsay to people, you know, I'm
not what I do like this ismy job. It really isn't a job
(28:03):
to me. It matters to mein a way that I didn't want to
acknowledge. And then I had toconfront when I got shit canned and all
these fake friends and everybody who hadsaid nice things, now we're doing the
opposite. I expected that that's thenature of the business. This is one
of the worst businesses I've ever beenaround my life. It makes politics look
like the pre But it was verydamaging to me because I had these ways.
(28:30):
You know, Sarah lived this withme. She's a tremendous friend,
tremendous friend, and I love her. I love her. I believe you
don't get to pick your relatives,but you do get to pick your family.
You get to pick who matters toyou, who you're going to be
there for. If you're a callaway in trouble. That's the measure for
me. That to me, that'slove. Is what's wrong with you?
Is important to me, is what'swrong with me? That's love. Maybe
(28:53):
people don't like that definition, butyou don't have to adopt it. It's
my own. And she was thereand a lot of peopeople in her position
would not be and demonstrably were not. But I then had these waves.
What happens when you go through afucked up situation is you have waves of
recognition. First you're in shock,right, and it's not like the stages
of grieving. But I then learnedat some point that Jim, that I
(29:21):
had done this to my wife andkids and to my friends, that I
had unconsciously even Sarah, like allthese people in my life, I had
put in a position to now haveto own my brother's situation, which I
was not aware of in the moment. And my therapist would say to me,
(29:45):
who's become like a life coach tome over the years, what are
you talking about? Do you knowhow many times I told you this was
going to happen? Do you knowhow many times I said that? And
I did offer twice based on hisadvice, I offered to quit. When
stuff would happen, I'd be like, well, this is this is fucking
crazy. I don't want to bringthis on CNN. And they didn't want
(30:07):
to lose me because I mattered toomuch to them, and because they knew
that it was bullshit, because theyknew what I was doing and not doing
so. Once I realized, ohmy god, not only did I fail
to keep my promise to my fatherto be my brother's keeping because I obviously
didn't help them because of everything thatwent wrong, but I did this to
(30:32):
my family. And my wife hasto own this, and her business has
to own this, and my kidshave to own this, and my son
is getting in scraps about this,and my daughters are getting savaged on social
media, and my friends are beingforced to have to say that they're okay
with a guy molesting eleven women,even though that's not even the nature of
the allegations. I was so angryat myself and in so much pain about
(30:57):
that that I really only had acouple options, which was one to just
surrender to that and become a victimof circumstance or own it go on an
apology tour. Not because I haddone wrong things. But men, when
(31:19):
you hurt people, whether you meanit or not, you know you've got
to you got it, You gotto own it. Uh. And it
is not easy, and it isvery destructive to your sense of self.
And I turned in words, uh, drank a lot, and eventually had
(31:41):
to stop that because I just wasn'table to be who I need to be.
I was just hiding from myself.And I decided eventually to just lean
on philosophy because that's always been mymy way. I'm not really a religious
person. I choose to have faith. I don't proselytize. I don't put
(32:04):
it on anybody else. I don'tbelieve it makes you a good or better
person. To me, it's justa reflection of my need and my desperation
for anything to help me get myselfto a lesser state of suck. So
my faith is not an indication ofanything other than my desperation. And I
just read a lot of philosophy andthought about it, and I had to
(32:25):
run away from my family because thepaparazzi were on my ass like it was
a chew toy. And I'd neverseen anything like it in the media.
Matt Lower told me he felt badfor me, and I was like,
holy shit, this is never toldme that crush on Matt Lower. I
saw I have a crush on MattLower, and you'd say, oh,
(32:46):
but his legs are so thin.He does have thin legs, yes,
tennis player legs. I'm like,I don't care about his legs. I
still think he's hot im and ofyour affections for he was very sympathetic to
me. He's always been very goodto me whenever I see him, and
we live in the same village.So I left. I had to run
(33:07):
away, went to Florida, andthen they found out I was in Florida
and DeSantis took a shot at me, which I didn't really care about at
that point, but I thought thatI was done. I'm never going back
into television. I'm never going backinto the media. Fucked them, and
now you're made for this. Thisis this is who I just realized,
(33:27):
all right, So what am Igonna do? What matters to me,
What gives me a sense of purpose? What makes all of the lousy things
that come along with whatever? Thatthing is worth it? You know,
like Sarah and I trained share abond when it comes to training, and
I fight train a lot. Idon't enjoy it very often. I usually
(33:50):
lose. I'm slow, I'm older. But the hardship of it is offset
by the sense of satisfact I getof the effort and of the thinking and
of the learning, and of thepermutations of thought and strategy that go into
self defense. Similarly, with themedia, I made a decision that I
(34:14):
want to help, and I seethe game that is played in politics with
the parties and media as well asanyone. I've been in it a long
time. I lived it in away no other journalist has, not,
just as the object of scrutiny,but I lived politics and the way other
people can only talk to people about. I've been a part of a dozen
(34:35):
different campaigns. I've heard multiple presidentsfrom different parties and governors and senators when
there's no camera around, when they'renot speaking for the media, talk to
one another about what matters and whyand what's happening and what isn't. And
I have conversations with the lawmakers tothis morning and afternoon and day that other
journalists do not have. And Ithought that that mattered, and that I
(34:59):
wanted to do something with it.And it's not that I was co opted
by CNN. When people say Ilike you, No, I didn't like
you at CNN. No, it'sCNN. You don't like I'm the same
guy. I just got a differentset of initials on my T shirt.
And I have a little different perspectivenow because part of coming back from it
was all right, well, here'sthe first thing. My family's got to
(35:19):
be okay with it, and theygot to know what it's going to entail
and what it's not going to entail. And I'm actually going to have this
conversation overtly this time in a waythat it was never had with me with
my family when my father decided togo into public service, and in a
way that I never had with them. And if they say no, that
I'm not doing it. And onceI knew that they were okay with it
(35:40):
and they understood it, I thenhad to find an outlet who would let
me do only what I want todo. And between the ones who didn't
want to touch me because I wasradioactive because of my brother, and those
that I didn't want to touch becauseI don't like what they're about. News
(36:01):
Nation was kind of a gift becauseit was a place that was looking for
a sense of purpose and its senseof purpose. You know, news Nation
is the only news organization where thename of it reflects the audience instead of
itself. If you think about it, every other set of initials, every
(36:22):
other acronym is about the entity.News Nation is reflective of the audience.
America is News Nation and the ideaof serving them and being over in the
advocacy of diagnosing what is happening inpolitics and media in larger society that is
good and bad for it, Ifelt was uniquely suited to me. So
(36:44):
I decided to do it, eventhough it was embarrassing to get back into
the media and that I knew peoplewould judge me and they would write nasty
shit and they'd ignore anything that Ido because they had done that anyway.
They just had to pay attention.When I was at CNN, we were
too powered, and I knew thatthat was all going to happen. And
I had to get straight with myselfabout what matters to me? What are
(37:07):
my metrics, what is my valueproposition? What do I want? I
wanted to help, I wanted toexpose the game. I wanted to only
pick fights that matter, and Iwanted to talk to the people that you're
not supposed to talk to, andI knew it was going to piss people
(37:28):
off. I was always a manwithout a team, but I was always
believed to be on the left becausemy name is Cuomo, although anyone who
knows me will know that that isnot what squares with my personal set of
issues. But they don't really matter. And there's something to me that's interesting
and fun about the fact that peoplethink that I am something that I am
(37:49):
I am not. That's okay,but in all fairness that I'm not being
biased. I mean, you're oneof the few. You're the only journalists
that I really have seen that doesn't. I mean, you treat everybody fairly.
You bring people on from both sidesof the aisle, and you push
back on both sides of the aisle. So I but that benefit to me,
(38:12):
despising what they are all a partof, you see, because my
problem is the system that they're in. Yeah. I get the Democrats saying
that they believe that the Republican ismore toxified. I think they have a
fair argument. Is it a completeargument? No, But it's hard to
look at what Trump has done tothe GOP and not see that they are
more advanced in their perversion of typethan the Democrats are at this point because
(38:36):
we haven't had a dominant figure infectthe Democratic Party the way Trump did the
GOP. My point is it doesn'tmatter whether or not they are equal combatants
if the combat itself is poisonous,and to me, the party system has
(38:57):
failed us. It can only failus, and will only ever fail us.
So I'll bring you on. I'llpolice your argument, but I'm not
going to pick aside because I hatethe game and I know it gives me
a smaller audience. I understand.I know why Tucker Carlson does what he
does. I know why Rachel Maddowdoes. I know why Chris Hayes does.
(39:21):
I know why Read does. Ido not fault them for this.
I believe their beliefs are probably genuinethat I don't know about Tucker as much.
But I don't want to be partof a side of a game that
I think is destructive to people's interestsand to the democracy. So it's easy
for me to have on people I'mnot supposed to go with. It's easy
(39:44):
for me to go and sit witha bunch of conservatives. They don't.
I'm not troubled by people's beliefs.I'm troubled about what they do and don't
do as a function of those beliefs. So I think we need more of
it and more and more. I'mgoing to have people on my shop.
Oh that people don't like, youknow. I had on the Green Prince
about what's happening in Israel, andhe is very Prosionist and anti Hamas,
(40:09):
and all the pro Palestinian people wentbad on me, even though the guy
his father is one of the foundersof Hamas, and they all said,
I hate Palestinians. I have onBesim Yusef, who is the Egyptian John
Stewart, and he makes the casefor how Arabs see Israeli occupation. Oh
(40:29):
my god, I've gone bad onthe IDF. I've gone bad on the
Zionis why because everybody's got to processit to his side is open. And
I am now an advocate, AndI know journalists aren't supposed to say that,
but I am saying it. Iam an advocate for people to leave
the parties, to become free agents, to be independent, critical thinkers and
(40:53):
force the system to change such thatprimaries are open, so we stop being
held hostage by the fringe, becausethat's where they get you as in the
primary structure, and we see iteverywhere. It corrodes law and justice.
Look what's happening in our politics wherewe now spend more time prosecuting our opponents
(41:17):
than working with them for store anddebating against them. We prosecute, that's
what we do. And one sidewill say this is terrible, look at
what they're doing, and as soonas they have the numbers, they do
the same fucking day. Why becauseit works, and that's why we all
have a mutual enemy, and itis the game attacked the game. So
(41:42):
that reminds me. I got tosend some free agent merchandise to Jim because
I bought a bunch of stuff.The money goes to charities, right christ
trying to get a big, toughnumber where I'll be impressed when I give
it away. So right now,I bought so much. I bought like
twenty worth of stuff. I likeit. You're only like three times behind
me. I. So here's thething. So right now I'm doing what
(42:06):
only I can do, which ismake a good idea bad because I'm going
to have this. I'm not havinga looming tax burden because I have the
money. So technically it's income becauseI haven't set up through any other organization,
and I'm waiting for it to getimpressive enough. It's like fifteen grand,
but I want to like fifty Iwanted seventy five, you know,
I wanted to be able to makea number of donations in the name of
(42:30):
these people to universal causes that'll belike impressive to me, you know.
I mean, I got like fifteenseventeen grand right now, and I know
people get to, Oh, it'sso much money. No, it's not.
It's not enough for me to feellike we're really doing something. So
right now, I'm just you know, holding onto income that I'm sure i'll
(42:51):
get audited for at some point.But that's two. We've got two fishermen
here, Jim Griffin and Chris Cuomo. I'm waiting for my invite on y'all's
boats, the suppers on a fishingWhy you are about big sunglasses? Can
(43:14):
appropriate? Oh my god, you'retalking about me showing your text messages?
All right, that was a violation, But I don't know but next you
again, don't we have Matt.Don't we have these pictures from Chris that
from that Jim was Jim was dissingus the impressive fish. Yeah, yet
(43:37):
we don't get elephant anymore. Whatdo you talk about. It's not a
real fish. No, she saysthat photo of you holding that yellowphant Tenna's
photoshop that you got Arnold to makethem. Arnold would be insulted. Now
(43:58):
I've had people ask me and supposedto that does he take something? Does
he do testacia? I said,no, that guy. I was like
that guy. First of all,I was the one trying to get you
on like regular supplements, you know. But look now you want to see
what I'm taking every day now twicea day. Look at all? I
(44:20):
know? Well that yeah, wellthis is my new COVID detalk. You
know I started that substack. Yeahto uh showcase. I mean, you
get my podcast, the Chris PlomoProject. You can get it without ads
on the substack because a lot ofpeople get pissed off about ads, as
you guys know. But the realcause of it is it's a community for
(44:42):
long COVID of clinicians and people whoare struggling with it to kind of get
on the same page and share ideas. So what I'm doing for it is
I had all the tests done reallyfucking depressing, by the way, what
they showed me in my blood.That's proof of this spike protein from the
virus and or the vaccine. It'sunclear because they both have spiked protein in
(45:07):
them, and how my blood haschanged and the blood chemistry has changed because
I have long COVID and I'm nowon a protocol to try to get it
better, and I'm letting everybody goto school on me. So you'll see
my intake interview with the doctor andshe'll explain all of this about why they
believe what they believe, and thenyou'll see what my blood work revealed.
(45:29):
Is going to come next after that, and then you're going to see the
protocol that's on and then I'll startreporting about you know, on that on
that substack, because it's you know, and a lot of people don't give
a shit, you know, Soit's for people who do you know.
I have to I actually have totalk to you later off the record because
I I have developed weird stuff inmy cardiovascular and blood that I think is
(45:50):
from the vaccine because there's no otherexplanation for it. But it's not it.
But I did get the vaccines,a bunch of vaccine. I have
tests now where they can tell youand I'll hook you up with Terrain Health
doctor Rose that I'm using. Ireally I spent about a week and a
half, which you know, forme is an eternity going through uh their
research, you know, being inthis a long time, and the and
the training, and we have anability to process things real fast in this
(46:15):
business, you know. So forme to spend a week and a half
digging into something that's that's a longtime. So the research it's it's fairly
plenary at this point. I mean, you know, it's this bite protein
is more indicative of than anything else, of of anything that unites all of
these different types of symptoms people have. But anyway, if people want to
(46:37):
check out the substack, they can. I got to jump and I appreciate
you guys very much. I lookforward to I love you friend. Thank
you so much for joining us somuch. Chris and we will we are
available to join the Cuomo project ifyou want to do an A to Z
like crime headline break down. MyTEP have to find the right text and
(46:59):
photo they sent me announced and thereyou go. On. Please don't ask
Jim for my photos. He doesn'thave any. No, I haven't.
I don't need it. I gotnothing. I got nothing. Thank you
again to our friend Chris Cuomo,who's been so wonderful to us, and
we hope to talk to him morein the future and join him on his
(47:20):
podcast, The Cuomo Project. Andwe thank all of you for listening.
Yeah, we couldn't do without youguys. Thanks for all your support.
And if this is your first timelistening to our show, we have so
many more episodes you can listen to. We are called The Presumption. We're
on all the podcast platforms at thePresumption. We're on YouTube at the Presumption,
follow us on Twitter and Instagram atthe Presumption. I don't know how
(47:44):
else to say it. Thank youguys, all the Presumption at the Presumption.
Thank you guys so much, anduntil next time, Sarah and Jim be Rich
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Herd with Colin Cowherd
The Herd with Colin Cowherd is a thought-provoking, opinionated, and topic-driven journey through the top sports stories of the day.