January 2, 2025 • 33 mins
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Turning a passion project into a recognized brand isn’t easy. But Jamie Watkins of Divine Savages is here to share how they did it, including how they used PR and great imagery to stand out.
Divine Savages is a bold and innovative interiors brand known for its striking wallpapers and fabrics. Jamie and his husband Tom turned their side project into a thriving business that has captured the attention of prestigious names like the Natural History Museum and Heal’s.
In this episode, Jamie shares their journey from humble beginnings to industry recognition. He also offers practical insights on leveraging PR, creating standout imagery, and navigating the ever-changing retail landscape. Plus, he reflects on his experience in the mastermind.
[00:00] Meet Jamie Watkins
[02:06] What led Jamie decide to start an interior business
[07:42] The highlights of running an interior business
[10:58] How important is PR for an interior brand?
[14:36] Tips from Jamie on how brands can approach partnerships
[21:45] How they're navigating Instagram's changes
[25:14] What Jamie has learned through the mastermind
Resources:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the Resilient Retail Game Plan.
Hi, I'm your host, Catherine Erdly,a small business and retail expert.
And I'm also the founder of the ResilientRetail Club, which is my membership group
and mastermind for product businesses.
You can find out more atresilientretailclub.com.
And speaking of the mastermind today, Iam joined by the fabulous Jamie Watkins.
He is one half of the duo behind theamazing interiors brand, Divine Savages.
(00:24):
Jamie's been the mastermind for afew months and he's jumping on today
to share his story, how they gotstarted, what he's learned along the
way, and also a little bit about whatit's like being in the mastermind.
Welcome to the Resilient Retail GamePlan, a podcast for anyone wanting to
(00:48):
start, grow or scale a profitable creativeproduct business with me, Catherine Erdly.
The Resilient Retail Game Plan isa podcast dedicated to one thing,
breaking down the concepts and toolsthat I've gathered from 20 years in
the retail industry and showing youhow you can use them in your business.
This is the real nuts and bolts ofrunning a successful product business,
(01:11):
broken down in an easy, accessible way.
This is not a podcast about learninghow to make your business look good.
It's the tools and techniques that willmake you and your business feel good.
Confidently plan, launch, and manageyour products, and feel in control of
your sales numbers and cash flow to helpyou build a resilient retail business.
(01:38):
Jamie, thank you so much forjoining me on the podcast today.
Do you want to start off byintroducing yourself and your business?
Yes, so I am Jamie Watkins, one halfof Divine Savages, and we are, I guess
you'd describe us as like a design duo.
I run the brand with my husband Tom,and we specialize in creating lovely
(02:01):
wallpapers and fabrics with kind ofa bold aesthetic, as you can see.
As you can see behind you,so beautifully illustrated.
So tell us a bit about howyou decided to get started.
What made you decide to start aninterior business and what made you
decide to do it together, I guess.
S o Tom's background is in fashion.
(02:23):
And he was working for an agency, fashionand branding and got to a point where
he was ready for a bit of a change.
And so he was thinking about somethingthat he could do as like a side project
or hopefully, potentially leading to likesomething that he could do full time.
I was working in TV, so very different.
(02:43):
We were both startingto decorate our house.
We bought a flat in South London.
So we were starting toput our stamp on that.
So interiors felt like a sharedspace that we both had a passion for.
We've both always loved wallpaper.
So it started like that.
And then yeah, we decided tolike, let's create a brand
(03:04):
and like, see where it goes.
So it kind of was all very quiteorganic and we didn't put too much
thought into strategy and long term.
It was always just meant to be kind ofTom's side hustle and then, yeah, it
grew and grew quite quickly and thenbecame this bigger than we expected.
Kind of brand that Iended up quitting my job.
(03:27):
Maybe yeah, three, threeor four years in, I think.
We run it like properly together.
So yeah, it's been a kind ofcrazy journey, but yeah, started
from like that kind of seed of anidea of let's do something fun.
And what year was that?
What year did you start?
Oh, I think it was 2017 if my is right.
Yeah, like late.
(03:48):
I mean, yeah, we started thinking ofthe idea earlier, but things get in the
way and you kind of also start to doubtyourself about, "Oh, we don't know how to
run a business," or "we don't know how tomake paper" and "where do we even start?"
So yeah, it took us a while to getgoing just because we had a few
(04:09):
like, yeah like, is this really theright thing to do kind of thing?
Yes.
Eventually we got going and I thinkwe've launched the brand in October 2017.
Well, so seven, seven years andthen and you started with wallpaper.
That was how it started.
Well, we were looking, we bought ourflat and we just painted it all gray.
(04:30):
Because that was very like the thingat the time and it was like easy, like
we've decorated the flat in like a week.
But everything was very neutraland gray and then it was maybe two
years later we were like, "Actuallythis isn't our vibe and we're
much more into pattern and color."
I grew up with like my mum using wallpaperpretty much in every room in the house.
(04:51):
I always had like a soft spot forwallpaper and I could see that like
it was having a bit of a renaissanceand like interiors itself as well.
Although we didn't really liketoo strategically in terms of like
wallpaper is having its moment.
Let's do that, it was more.
Yeah.
So then I think it started maybe withwe couldn't find a shower curtain.
(05:13):
We had like a bathroom.
We didn't have thebudget to like revamp it.
So we were like, "Oh, let's justget a really cool shower curtain."
It's like all the stuff was like white.
So it's something really bold for thatspace, but we couldn't find anything.
So I was like, "Well, Tom, You'reobviously good at drawing, so
why don't you design something?"
it kind of started there, andwe managed to find someone
(05:35):
that could print and make it.
And yeah, lots of friends wereasking, "where did you get
that shower curtain from?"
And we were like, oh, we just made it.
So that was the seed of oh, maybewe could sell these, or other people
might be interested in them kindof thing, and it grew from there.
Yeah, wow.
And what was the point at which yourealized, I mean, I suppose it helps
(05:57):
when people start asking things like,where did you get the shower curtain?
Could I have one like that?
But was there a moment where yourealize, oh, this is going to work?
Yeah, I don't know, that one's hard.
I t hink once we, Tom had decidedhe wanted definitely to get out of
the role he was in and do somethingdifferent, so I think that was pushing
(06:17):
us towards, "Let's like put this outthere and see what the feedback is."
But it's very much likeInstagram that was the catalyst.
We started like teasing the kind ofbrand launch, I guess you would call it.
Even though it was like very lowkey, but we started like, we created
the account way before October.
I think it was probably like in thesummer of that year and just started
(06:41):
like teasing little snippets or even justlike the logo like saying coming soon.
And loads of people were likereally interested in oh my god
like Divine Savages, what is this?
And so that kind of dialogue that dialoguewith people started quite early on.
Which I think was like, and again,Instagram was a very different place
seven years ago, but yeah, we kindof started creating a bit of like
(07:04):
a community around Divine Savages,before we even had a website.
So I think we had that traction and thatkind of, yeah, we kind of realized, "Oh,
maybe like there's something in this, likepeople seem to be really interested in
it."
Yeah.
Even though we didn't haveany products at the time.
And did they know itwas an interiors brand?
(07:25):
were you just saying Divine Savages?
Yeah, I think we were prettyclear like, what we were going to
be about in terms of interiors.
Yeah, and that, I think, helpedget those kind of interiors
following us like, excited toknow what we'd be coming up with.
Amazing.
So what would you think have beensome of the highlights then so far?
(07:47):
Yeah, it's always hard you know,like when you run a business.
You're always like in themoment, like doing stuff.
So we're not good atreflecting on what we've done.
But yeah, off the top of my headwe did a collaboration with the
Natural History Museum, Yeah, I thinkmaybe in our second or third year.
So that was amazing.
(08:08):
We worked with them to create acollection of like wallpapers, fabrics,
lampshades, cushions using their archivefrom the museum, which was amazing.
So Tom got to like rummagethrough all their kind of like
centuries of like designs.
Yeah, such an iconic name and Ilove the fact that they were bold
(08:32):
enough to do something like that.
I think that's really interesting andyeah, the collection itself is fabulous.
Pulling from the archives, it fitsso well and it's a really nice.
The synergy was like great.
I mean, we just reached out to themand I think we were like me and Tom
were talking about, okay, we must havebeen like a year in and we were like
(08:55):
collaboration would be great just tohelp get our brand out there a bit more.
So it was just like a kind of, wejust were joking like, "Let's draw
up a like wish list of who we'dlove to work with," and it was like
big brands and Yeah, like NaturalHistory Museum was like at the top.
And yeah, we just likereached out to them somehow.
(09:17):
Like through Google, managed to finda contact and yeah And they like we
just thought we'd never hear back.
But yeah, they I think we kind ofis very like the stars were aligned.
They were kind looking to get intointeriors more with their like brand.
They were doing like some work withFarrow and Ball on paint collection.
(09:38):
And I think at the time, made.com,they were doing some like kind
of art prints for the home.
Right.
Yeah, and then we were like thethird piece of that kind of interior
story with our wallpapers and fabric.
So, yeah, it was good.
It was like amazing for us and reallypushed Divine Savages like out there
more , press wise and kind of coverage.
(10:00):
So that was great.
It's such a good example as wellof just asking sometimes, you
know, just the could happen?
They'll just never hear back.
Yeah, exactly.
And that's what we thought would happen.
And obviously it worked out much better.
Other things we kind of, werestocked in Heal's, which was amazing.
(10:23):
Like our cushions and actually someof the Natural History cushions,
we're in Heal' s and that's likealways been like one of our favorite
kind of interior stores in London.
Yeah.
We loved to wander around, like way beforewe like worked in areas loving that store.
So to like then walk aroundand see our cushions in there.
It was amazing.
Oh, that must be amazing.
(10:44):
Yeah.
I used to work on Tottenham Court Roadand I used to go to Heal's sometimes
on my lunch break just to relief.
Exactly.
So, yeah, that was cool.
Yeah, it's been, like, a crazy ride.
I wanted to pick up a little bit aboutPR because first of all, I'd like to
just ask because if anyone's listeningand they're an interiors brand.
(11:07):
Whether that's wallpaper, whetherthat's more home furnishings or
home accessories, things like that.
Like how important do you think PR isin particularly in the interiors world?
For an interiors business?
Right.
I would say, when we firststarted, it was all like, PR.
Ooh what actually is it?
It was kind of this strangeplace that is always a bit hard
(11:28):
to work out what's going on.
But yeah, I think in interiorsit's it is quite key.
I think obviously you have, there'sa lot of like outlets, magazines
out there in the interior space.
So to get your brand in there, yeah, youjust kind of need to be out there really.
So yeah I mean, we werequite fortunate, Tom.
(11:51):
One of Tom's really good friendsactually is in PR and interiors PR.
So for us, it was quite an easy kind ofconversation to have with someone we knew
and trusted and yeah, we ended up so theystill manage our PR now, Emma and Josie.
So yeah, I think for us it'sbalancing, I guess it falls in
(12:12):
with like your advertising kindof area where you obviously pay
for it with your kind of like PR.
That's more just natural editorial.
And I think you just need for us,like we feel it's important for Divine
Savages to be constantly in the press.
So when people are reading, they'rekind of like, it's hard to quantify.
(12:34):
Like I can't ever say that justbecause our cushion was featured
in like living, et cetera.
Like we sold like 20cushions off the back of it.
It doesn't really necessarily workthat way, but just brand reinforcement
for us that when people then are readyto think about decorating their home.
They've seen Divine Savages a fewtimes in trusted kind of places.
(12:57):
Then they have aconnection with your brand.
Yeah, no.
And I think it's something veryparticular to the interiors as well,
because it's a slightly different.
Well, it's definitely for somethinglike wallpaper, where you're actually
going to stick it to your wall.
You know, it's a quite along decision making process.
Or it can be fairly longand it's very considered.
(13:21):
And I think it's always fascinatingand important as a brand to be
thinking about where is your customerwhen they're making these decisions?
And the interiors, I thinkthen the role of the, like you
say, like living, et cetera.
I only ever buy home magazines when I'mabout to do something redecorate your
room or want ideas or something like that.
You don't, I mean, I guesssome people just buy them all
(13:43):
the time because they love it.
Yeah.
But for most people, it's very tiedto the decision making process.
Yeah, definitely.
And I think, I mean, it's changed as well.
There's like lots of more onlinesources and blogs and every magazine
has their like online equivalent.
And normally filled with like lotsof articles to do with like SEO.
(14:05):
I mean, we get like really funny,like requests coming through for
either quotes or images and they canbe like super specific and I can't.
An example off the top of my head, butlike decorating with like wallpaper
in like a closet or something,but like, that's something that
people are searching for online.
(14:26):
So it was like great then for ourbrand to be in those search results.
Yes.
Quite quick and easy wins, really, for us.
Yeah, for sure.
So collaboration, so we talkedabout the Natural History museum.
You've done quite a few collaborations.
Do they all come about fairlyorganically as you said?
But the Natural History museum,you had a list, you had the people
(14:48):
that you, they were the top of it.
You reached out there and they responded.
Is that pretty much how most ofyour collaborations have come about?
Yeah, I'd say most of them.
I think for maybe in theearly days we were kind of
like, collab, collab, collab.
It was, like, quite buzzword.
People did reach out to us to collaborate.
But I think as a brand like you needto think like why are we doing this
(15:12):
and what's it and do your two brandshave something in common but also
offer each other something else topush your brand into a new space.
Mmm.
Yeah so I'd like say think aboutcollaborations quite carefully
in terms of making sure it'slike the right fit for you.
(15:33):
Yeah.
So I'd say most of them, havecome like pretty organically.
The rest reaching out or kind ofpeople finding us through Insta.
And yeah, I think going forward yeah,we're always open to collaborations.
We love doing it.
It's just now luckily they'retending to get a bit like bigger in
terms of like scope or the brand.
(15:54):
So it's more time from our side.
There's limited hours in the day.
So now we're having to planit out a little bit more.
So we're actually working on somethingfor well, it will come out in like
summer 2026, I think that's actuallythe process behind what we're
collaborating on takes a long time.
(16:15):
So there'll be lots of like work inbetween them, but the actual product
probably won't be out till 2026.
And then another one, whichis that should be next year.
So yeah, it's kind of like keepingus busy and try and drop in
like something else in between.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's such a good point.
Thinking about it strategically, butyeah, but just not being afraid to
(16:36):
just reach out if you see people thatyou do think would be a perfect fit.
Yeah, definitely.
And I think Instagram for us hasbeen like a massive, that's really
where we've made all of our kind ofconnections with like even influencers
or bloggers or like people in thatinterior space very early on when I
said we were like teasing our launch.
(16:58):
We're really lucky that like peoplelike Kate Watson-Smythe and Sophie
Robinson, like two really big kindof people in the interior space on
Instagram started paying like attentionor interest in what we were doing.
Yes.
Once we did launch, they shared someof our images on their feed or stories.
(17:21):
And that really drove alot more people to us.
And yeah, anyone starting out juststart like connecting with people.
Like on socials that you yeah, arelike fans of or like respect or
inspire you or eventually you'd loveto connect better with and just start
that kind of networking, I guess,like, at least like social networking.
(17:43):
No, totally.
Networking like early on.
Yeah.
And I think it's interesting becauseobviously what you were doing where
you have a very defined aesthetic,you know, it's you and quite clear
handwriting when you see something.
It very much says Divine Savages, right?
You know, it's so there willbe people who will absolutely
(18:04):
love that and respond to that.
And then there's going to be theminimalists of this world who that's
just not ever going to be their thing.
Right.
And I suppose the kind of cleareryou are about who you are, the
more you'll attract the people wholove it, which is what you need.
Yeah, you need to know who's intoyour product at the end of the day.
And yeah, there is, there's no point inus trying to tempt the kind of gray, sandy
(18:30):
fans to us, cause it's not what we do.
I was going to mention like, Ithink back on the PR and like
magazine, like area, I guess.
Interiors is obviously a veryvisual kind of medium, like design.
So photography, images are like key to it.
So I think that's why like PR forus, like we have that image bank now.
(18:54):
We're quite like seven years in.
So thankfully we have a lot of images inour kind of library that we can share.
So when journalists or editors orwhatever, are looking for something.
Like they are often quite specificrequests, but hopefully we have
something like that we share withthem that kind of fits their brief.
Right.
Right.
(19:14):
Yes.
So, good imagery.
And that was that a very consciousdecision right from the get go?
Good imagery.
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah.
I think, I mean, and again, Instagramhas changed so much in seven years.
Everything's elevated, like every,everyone like is so professional
now with the kit and the tech.
So yeah.
(19:34):
And I mean, yeah, obviously like whatwe, the core of what we do is wallpaper.
So yeah, those images are like key forus getting across like our aesthetic,
the print, the design, the detail.
Yeah.
No, I think that's so, so important.
I think if you are going to makePR part of your strategy, then
that imagery is really crucial.
(19:56):
Isn't it?
Yeah, and just also making it easy forthe journalists and the writers that
are creating those articles at the endof the day, I think they just want you
need to make their life like, as easyas possible, because they're so busy.
And they get so many requests.
So if you've got even if it's justlike a Dropbox, but really lovely
(20:17):
organized folders with whateverit is, like that your brand does,
but just make it like super clear.
So like we have living room,dining room, kitchen, like folders.
And also it makes PR teams life easierif they get a request for a kitchen,
they know they can go straight to thatfolder and that's all our kitchen imagery.
(20:38):
And then they can pick throughthat this most suitable kind
of images for that request.
Yeah, yeah.
And I'm sure it makes a difference.
I mean, I think about, you know,even my sort of very limited what
I do for Forbes, where I'm writing.
If somebody, if I send out somebody arequest to say, can you give me a quote
on XYZ and they immediately, you know,they write back very promptly and give
(21:00):
me something useful, then definitelyguarantee that next time I need something
along those lines and I'll think of theperson who was super helpful and, you
know, gave me what I needed as opposed tosomeone who didn't respond or took ages
to respond or didn't follow the brief.
And I'm sure it's the samewith magazines, right?
You know, they know that you've gotbeautiful imagery and you're super
(21:20):
helpful and you make their life easier.
Then why wouldn't theylean on what you're doing?
And come to you again and again.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah now we've like built up likea dialogue through our PR team as
well, that also that's a strengththat they bring to the table.
They know they can come to us andget like something really quick.
And then they're oftenlike working to deadlines.
(21:41):
So yeah, that's good.
They can rely on us.
Fantastic.
So talk a little bitabout the challenges then.
So we've talked about thekind of the high points.
What have been some of thechallenges of building a brand
over the last seven years?
Yeah, as I said, Instagram was likean amazing platform for us when we
launched seven years ago, but it wasvery much like just photography image
(22:03):
driven and obviously, cut to 2024and it's way more like video focused.
And the algorithm is alwayschanging and we are very lucky.
Like we grew on Instagram quite quickly.
Seven years ago, it was a loteasier to like, more people saw
your posts gained more followers.
And we've got a really strong,like baseline now of like
(22:25):
over a 100K, which is amazing.
It's so hard to grow now.
Like we are very like, likesmaller numbers compared to like
kind of five, seven years ago.
But also it's it's an evolvingplatform and so it's great and
like new features come out.
So I think like we, you just need toembrace those as much as like some people
(22:46):
kind of like moan or don't like change.
Oh, they're changing it again, but iflike they add those new features, so
like use them and because then if youdo the algorithm is going to notice
that and push your content out more.
As an example, like the Notesfeature is quite new and not many
(23:06):
people are sure like, "Oh, whyis it like, how's it different to
like just commenting," and stuff?
But we've like experimented abit and actually posts where we've
encouraged people to like, use theNote function have done significantly
better than just a normal post.
So yeah, it's just like riding withthe changes really and embracing them.
And then, yeah, other challenges.
(23:27):
I mean, as we've grown I mean,we started the brand and we were
running it out of our house.
Initially the spare roombecame like the stock room.
And we were like shippingeverything ourselves.
But yeah, it kind of got toa tipping point where like we
couldn't manage that anymore.
And I was still workingkind of full time in TV.
Oh wow.
(23:49):
So that was fun.
So yeah, we kind of switched toa fulfillment kind of company
who've been really great, actually.
We're still with them now.
And they manage all of our stockand like holding stock and shipping.
But it's still challenges and makingthat as efficient as possible.
And then obviously why weended up speaking together as
(24:09):
like stock management for us.
Because it's over there in thiswarehouse, like somewhere it's
like, I really get involved in.
So it's quite, it got a littlebit unruly in terms of just the
amount of stock that we had.
Mm.
On top of that.
So that's always a bit of a challengewhen you're I guess, running it remotely.
(24:30):
Yes.
It's not a physical thing that you see.
It's just like in a spreadsheet, so.
Yeah, yeah.
It's why a lot of the, you know, overthe years, big retailers, they always
love to send the product teams to thewarehouse to physically see things.
I should probably do atrip and be horrified.
(24:55):
And it was always like the walk ofshame where something that you'd
overbought would be like the beatyou'd walk past six rows of it.
You think, okay.
It's like part and parcel ofrunning your own businesses.
There's always going to bechallenges, but that's kind of
why we love it at the same time.
Yeah, for sure.
(25:15):
So yes, you mentioned that you're inthe mastermind and obviously you've been
in the mastermind for a few months now.
So yeah, I just love to hear yourwords, how you found that and how
that's helped with the business.
Yeah, I mean, it's been great.
For me, like the key thing waslike just trying to get on top of
a bit more processes because again,I'm not coming from a business
(25:39):
background and Tom is very creative.
He just kind of manages all of that size.
And then my role earlier on was justlike helping out on bits and pieces.
And then obviously that's grown becausethose bits, pieces, got a lot to manage.
So yeah, I kind of really waslooking for just a bit more, yeah.
(26:02):
Like insight and expertise on, yeah.
How to like manage those processesthat we didn't necessarily
have in place from the get go.
And just thinking more, yeah, justabout like actually how to like keep
on top of your business, how to bettertrack things, whether it be just more
(26:23):
simple things like kind of forecastingand sales forecasting to yeah, stock
management and what to do better.
And how to like keep on top of things.
So it's been super useful fromjust those like key things for us.
Yeah.
I always say that most people startproducts, but businesses because of the
(26:46):
love of the product, which is exactly,as you said, it was something that
you'd seen a gap in the market and Tomobviously had his background and it lent
itself to creating something unique.
People have responded and it'sgrown brilliantly over seven years.
And then it's like, I'm not saying it'squite so much the case in your case,
but sometimes people say to me, well,like I accidentally started a business,
(27:08):
you know, or it can feel a bit likethat, that you go, Oh, hang on a minute.
Oh, there's all theseother things as well.
So it's really great.
It's always fabulous to work with peoplewho are at that stage where you've grown.
And then it's like, it was likethe phrase new level, new devil.
It's you get to a set when you'refirst starting out, you think it's all
about growth, which obviously is veryimportant, but then you get to a certain
point where you're like, Oh, right.
(27:30):
Okay, what got me here isn'tgoing to be what gets me there.
So, yeah, and it's fantasticto take that time and put those
pieces into place as it were.
So you've shared some of your, sharedsome really great tips actually for
people who might be, especially ininteriors and thinking about how to
build collaborations and PR, but isthere anything else that either you
would recommend to someone who's maybe abit earlier on in the journey, or maybe
(27:54):
something that you wish that you'd known?
As I like alluded to at the start, welike it took us a while to get going
because we were like, Oh, a bit nervous.
And Oh, is this do weknow what we're doing?
And who are we to think that wecould like design and make wallpaper?
We've never done that before.
And so like, yeah, just kind ofignore those like negative things.
(28:15):
Like thoughts and just crack onwith it because we probably would
have had a year headstart if we had.
So yeah, it's like just, ifyou got an idea and you're
passionate about it, just kind of.
Go.
Go for it, launch it, and then youcan always like, you'll find the
answers like in the moment really.
(28:35):
We were out there and then it's Oh,if we needed to solve a problem,
like we just had to get on with itthen cause we couldn't ignore it.
Yes.
Again, like if you have, if you're likeready to go, but just look at other
people, like in that space and see whatnot as a kind of not to copy or like in.
But more of a like inspiration andjust see what they're doing like well.
(28:57):
And it's really in like insightfulto like learn from other people
in that like similar space to you.
Just to see how they do it and yeah,you might find some answers there like
I think very like especially in theinteriors where people are like very open
and Tom came from a fashion backgroundwhere it was quite closed and like people
(29:20):
necessarily between like businessesand brands would like never like dream
of sharing like contacts or anything.
But we were like amazingly surprised atlike how open like people on Instagram
were and like supportive and Oh, youneed to speak to like, you need that.
Oh, you should speak to this person.
Oh, wow.
yeah, like very like open interms of like sharing insight.
(29:43):
So never like, don't be afraid tolike ask other people if you've got
like, a connection with them already.
Yeah, if you have a question,I'm sure they'd be happy to help.
And do you find as well, justworking with Tom, I mean, it seems
pretty clear, pretty well defined.
So he does the more creative element.
And you're doing the business andthe business development, but is that
(30:03):
something that you find that you'vehad to kind of, it's evolved over time.
You've had to keep discussing,negotiating, or has it always
been pretty much clear cut?
Yeah, we've been quite lucky like, yeah,it's been pretty clear cut from day one,
really I don't come from I'm creativein ways, but I could never create a
wallpaper or an art print or whatever.
(30:25):
So that's very much his like, there's likecreative director and he does all of that.
He's in charge of all ofthat, the imagery and stuff.
And then I guess I'm more like,yeah, like business and brand kind
of director and it's yeah, works thatway I get on with what I need to do
in terms of like business operations.
But then also like pushing the businessforward and yeah, getting the brand
(30:50):
out there, working with other people,like networking, that kind of thing.
It does work.
Well, we just get on with what we need todo, talk to each other when we need to.
And what's next?
What's the 2025 plans for Divine Savages?
(31:11):
I mean, what is going on?
So, yeah, I mean, we've got like thesetwo collaborations that like exciting.
And yeah, watch this space to likefind out more, but that will be
keeping us busy for the first half.
Part of one of those will be like anew collection, but with this brand.
So that's exciting.
So we're probably the first quarterwe'll be like developing that in terms
(31:33):
of sampling colorways, making sure all ofthat is ready to go in spring, hopefully.
We have our showroom here in Bath,so that's always like evolving.
We're building our kindof B2B kind of trade.
So working with like interiordesigners and architects and we
want to focus obviously like springas like new year, like lots of
(31:55):
projects get underway in residential.
Like conversely, like commercial andhospitality carries on like throughout
the year, but we'll be targeting thoseresidential projects that are like people
are starting to think about DIY and yeah,working with our trade partners to like,
make sure Divine Savages is in the mix.
So that will kind of the firsthalf of the year, really.
(32:17):
Fantastic.
And if anyone's planning a home projectand wants to go take a look, where
can they find out more about you?
Yeah, so divinesavages.com.
You can kind of browse all ofour like collections on there.
But if you're in the Somerset area,then yeah, we're in Bath at five
Margaret's buildings at the top of town.
So come and say hi.
(32:38):
Thank you so much for listening.
Do go check out divinesavages.comor go check out their Instagram.
If you want some serious interiorsenvy as well as heaps of inspiration
for your next project, it is anabsolutely stunning brand and great
to have Jamie on with me today.
If you want to know more aboutthe mastermind, then check out
the link in the show notes.
It will take you to the websitewhere you can find out more
(33:00):
and book a call to have a chat.
Otherwise, if you have a momentto like and review the podcast,
it makes a huge difference aswell as rating it if you can.
And if you like, follow, subscribe,whatever it's called on the platform you
listen to, you'll be the first to knowabout each new episode, which comes out
every Thursday and I'll see you next week.
Welcome to the Resilient Retail Game Plan.
Hi, I'm your host, Catherine Erdly,a small business and retail expert.
And I'm also the founder of the ResilientRetail Club, which is my membership group
and mastermind for product businesses.
You can find out more atresilientretailclub.com.
And speaking of the mastermind today, Iam joined by the fabulous Jamie Watkins.
He is one half of the duo behind theamazing interiors brand, Divine Savages.
(00:24):
Jamie's been the mastermind for afew months and he's jumping on today
to share his story, how they gotstarted, what he's learned along the
way, and also a little bit about whatit's like being in the mastermind.
Welcome to the Resilient Retail GamePlan, a podcast for anyone wanting to
(00:48):
start, grow or scale a profitable creativeproduct business with me, Catherine Erdly.
The Resilient Retail Game Plan isa podcast dedicated to one thing,
breaking down the concepts and toolsthat I've gathered from 20 years in
the retail industry and showing youhow you can use them in your business.
This is the real nuts and bolts ofrunning a successful product business,
(01:11):
broken down in an easy, accessible way.
This is not a podcast about learninghow to make your business look good.
It's the tools and techniques that willmake you and your business feel good.
Confidently plan, launch, and manageyour products, and feel in control of
your sales numbers and cash flow to helpyou build a resilient retail business.
(01:38):
Jamie, thank you so much forjoining me on the podcast today.
Do you want to start off byintroducing yourself and your business?
Yes, so I am Jamie Watkins, one halfof Divine Savages, and we are, I guess
you'd describe us as like a design duo.
I run the brand with my husband Tom,and we specialize in creating lovely
(02:01):
wallpapers and fabrics with kind ofa bold aesthetic, as you can see.
As you can see behind you,so beautifully illustrated.
So tell us a bit about howyou decided to get started.
What made you decide to start aninterior business and what made you
decide to do it together, I guess.
S o Tom's background is in fashion.
(02:23):
And he was working for an agency, fashionand branding and got to a point where
he was ready for a bit of a change.
And so he was thinking about somethingthat he could do as like a side project
or hopefully, potentially leading to likesomething that he could do full time.
I was working in TV, so very different.
(02:43):
We were both startingto decorate our house.
We bought a flat in South London.
So we were starting toput our stamp on that.
So interiors felt like a sharedspace that we both had a passion for.
We've both always loved wallpaper.
So it started like that.
And then yeah, we decided tolike, let's create a brand
(03:04):
and like, see where it goes.
So it kind of was all very quiteorganic and we didn't put too much
thought into strategy and long term.
It was always just meant to be kind ofTom's side hustle and then, yeah, it
grew and grew quite quickly and thenbecame this bigger than we expected.
Kind of brand that Iended up quitting my job.
(03:27):
Maybe yeah, three, threeor four years in, I think.
We run it like properly together.
So yeah, it's been a kind ofcrazy journey, but yeah, started
from like that kind of seed of anidea of let's do something fun.
And what year was that?
What year did you start?
Oh, I think it was 2017 if my is right.
Yeah, like late.
(03:48):
I mean, yeah, we started thinking ofthe idea earlier, but things get in the
way and you kind of also start to doubtyourself about, "Oh, we don't know how to
run a business," or "we don't know how tomake paper" and "where do we even start?"
So yeah, it took us a while to getgoing just because we had a few
(04:09):
like, yeah like, is this really theright thing to do kind of thing?
Yes.
Eventually we got going and I thinkwe've launched the brand in October 2017.
Well, so seven, seven years andthen and you started with wallpaper.
That was how it started.
Well, we were looking, we bought ourflat and we just painted it all gray.
(04:30):
Because that was very like the thingat the time and it was like easy, like
we've decorated the flat in like a week.
But everything was very neutraland gray and then it was maybe two
years later we were like, "Actuallythis isn't our vibe and we're
much more into pattern and color."
I grew up with like my mum using wallpaperpretty much in every room in the house.
(04:51):
I always had like a soft spot forwallpaper and I could see that like
it was having a bit of a renaissanceand like interiors itself as well.
Although we didn't really liketoo strategically in terms of like
wallpaper is having its moment.
Let's do that, it was more.
Yeah.
So then I think it started maybe withwe couldn't find a shower curtain.
(05:13):
We had like a bathroom.
We didn't have thebudget to like revamp it.
So we were like, "Oh, let's justget a really cool shower curtain."
It's like all the stuff was like white.
So it's something really bold for thatspace, but we couldn't find anything.
So I was like, "Well, Tom, You'reobviously good at drawing, so
why don't you design something?"
it kind of started there, andwe managed to find someone
(05:35):
that could print and make it.
And yeah, lots of friends wereasking, "where did you get
that shower curtain from?"
And we were like, oh, we just made it.
So that was the seed of oh, maybewe could sell these, or other people
might be interested in them kindof thing, and it grew from there.
Yeah, wow.
And what was the point at which yourealized, I mean, I suppose it helps
(05:57):
when people start asking things like,where did you get the shower curtain?
Could I have one like that?
But was there a moment where yourealize, oh, this is going to work?
Yeah, I don't know, that one's hard.
I t hink once we, Tom had decidedhe wanted definitely to get out of
the role he was in and do somethingdifferent, so I think that was pushing
(06:17):
us towards, "Let's like put this outthere and see what the feedback is."
But it's very much likeInstagram that was the catalyst.
We started like teasing the kind ofbrand launch, I guess you would call it.
Even though it was like very lowkey, but we started like, we created
the account way before October.
I think it was probably like in thesummer of that year and just started
(06:41):
like teasing little snippets or even justlike the logo like saying coming soon.
And loads of people were likereally interested in oh my god
like Divine Savages, what is this?
And so that kind of dialogue that dialoguewith people started quite early on.
Which I think was like, and again,Instagram was a very different place
seven years ago, but yeah, we kindof started creating a bit of like
(07:04):
a community around Divine Savages,before we even had a website.
So I think we had that traction and thatkind of, yeah, we kind of realized, "Oh,
maybe like there's something in this, likepeople seem to be really interested in
it."
Yeah.
Even though we didn't haveany products at the time.
And did they know itwas an interiors brand?
(07:25):
were you just saying Divine Savages?
Yeah, I think we were prettyclear like, what we were going to
be about in terms of interiors.
Yeah, and that, I think, helpedget those kind of interiors
following us like, excited toknow what we'd be coming up with.
Amazing.
So what would you think have beensome of the highlights then so far?
(07:47):
Yeah, it's always hard you know,like when you run a business.
You're always like in themoment, like doing stuff.
So we're not good atreflecting on what we've done.
But yeah, off the top of my headwe did a collaboration with the
Natural History Museum, Yeah, I thinkmaybe in our second or third year.
So that was amazing.
(08:08):
We worked with them to create acollection of like wallpapers, fabrics,
lampshades, cushions using their archivefrom the museum, which was amazing.
So Tom got to like rummagethrough all their kind of like
centuries of like designs.
Yeah, such an iconic name and Ilove the fact that they were bold
(08:32):
enough to do something like that.
I think that's really interesting andyeah, the collection itself is fabulous.
Pulling from the archives, it fitsso well and it's a really nice.
The synergy was like great.
I mean, we just reached out to themand I think we were like me and Tom
were talking about, okay, we must havebeen like a year in and we were like
(08:55):
collaboration would be great just tohelp get our brand out there a bit more.
So it was just like a kind of, wejust were joking like, "Let's draw
up a like wish list of who we'dlove to work with," and it was like
big brands and Yeah, like NaturalHistory Museum was like at the top.
And yeah, we just likereached out to them somehow.
(09:17):
Like through Google, managed to finda contact and yeah And they like we
just thought we'd never hear back.
But yeah, they I think we kind ofis very like the stars were aligned.
They were kind looking to get intointeriors more with their like brand.
They were doing like some work withFarrow and Ball on paint collection.
(09:38):
And I think at the time, made.com,they were doing some like kind
of art prints for the home.
Right.
Yeah, and then we were like thethird piece of that kind of interior
story with our wallpapers and fabric.
So, yeah, it was good.
It was like amazing for us and reallypushed Divine Savages like out there
more , press wise and kind of coverage.
(10:00):
So that was great.
It's such a good example as wellof just asking sometimes, you
know, just the could happen?
They'll just never hear back.
Yeah, exactly.
And that's what we thought would happen.
And obviously it worked out much better.
Other things we kind of, werestocked in Heal's, which was amazing.
(10:23):
Like our cushions and actually someof the Natural History cushions,
we're in Heal' s and that's likealways been like one of our favorite
kind of interior stores in London.
Yeah.
We loved to wander around, like way beforewe like worked in areas loving that store.
So to like then walk aroundand see our cushions in there.
It was amazing.
Oh, that must be amazing.
(10:44):
Yeah.
I used to work on Tottenham Court Roadand I used to go to Heal's sometimes
on my lunch break just to relief.
Exactly.
So, yeah, that was cool.
Yeah, it's been, like, a crazy ride.
I wanted to pick up a little bit aboutPR because first of all, I'd like to
just ask because if anyone's listeningand they're an interiors brand.
(11:07):
Whether that's wallpaper, whetherthat's more home furnishings or
home accessories, things like that.
Like how important do you think PR isin particularly in the interiors world?
For an interiors business?
Right.
I would say, when we firststarted, it was all like, PR.
Ooh what actually is it?
It was kind of this strangeplace that is always a bit hard
(11:28):
to work out what's going on.
But yeah, I think in interiorsit's it is quite key.
I think obviously you have, there'sa lot of like outlets, magazines
out there in the interior space.
So to get your brand in there, yeah, youjust kind of need to be out there really.
So yeah I mean, we werequite fortunate, Tom.
(11:51):
One of Tom's really good friendsactually is in PR and interiors PR.
So for us, it was quite an easy kind ofconversation to have with someone we knew
and trusted and yeah, we ended up so theystill manage our PR now, Emma and Josie.
So yeah, I think for us it'sbalancing, I guess it falls in
(12:12):
with like your advertising kindof area where you obviously pay
for it with your kind of like PR.
That's more just natural editorial.
And I think you just need for us,like we feel it's important for Divine
Savages to be constantly in the press.
So when people are reading, they'rekind of like, it's hard to quantify.
(12:34):
Like I can't ever say that justbecause our cushion was featured
in like living, et cetera.
Like we sold like 20cushions off the back of it.
It doesn't really necessarily workthat way, but just brand reinforcement
for us that when people then are readyto think about decorating their home.
They've seen Divine Savages a fewtimes in trusted kind of places.
(12:57):
Then they have aconnection with your brand.
Yeah, no.
And I think it's something veryparticular to the interiors as well,
because it's a slightly different.
Well, it's definitely for somethinglike wallpaper, where you're actually
going to stick it to your wall.
You know, it's a quite along decision making process.
Or it can be fairly longand it's very considered.
(13:21):
And I think it's always fascinatingand important as a brand to be
thinking about where is your customerwhen they're making these decisions?
And the interiors, I thinkthen the role of the, like you
say, like living, et cetera.
I only ever buy home magazines when I'mabout to do something redecorate your
room or want ideas or something like that.
You don't, I mean, I guesssome people just buy them all
(13:43):
the time because they love it.
Yeah.
But for most people, it's very tiedto the decision making process.
Yeah, definitely.
And I think, I mean, it's changed as well.
There's like lots of more onlinesources and blogs and every magazine
has their like online equivalent.
And normally filled with like lotsof articles to do with like SEO.
(14:05):
I mean, we get like really funny,like requests coming through for
either quotes or images and they canbe like super specific and I can't.
An example off the top of my head, butlike decorating with like wallpaper
in like a closet or something,but like, that's something that
people are searching for online.
(14:26):
So it was like great then for ourbrand to be in those search results.
Yes.
Quite quick and easy wins, really, for us.
Yeah, for sure.
So collaboration, so we talkedabout the Natural History museum.
You've done quite a few collaborations.
Do they all come about fairlyorganically as you said?
But the Natural History museum,you had a list, you had the people
(14:48):
that you, they were the top of it.
You reached out there and they responded.
Is that pretty much how most ofyour collaborations have come about?
Yeah, I'd say most of them.
I think for maybe in theearly days we were kind of
like, collab, collab, collab.
It was, like, quite buzzword.
People did reach out to us to collaborate.
But I think as a brand like you needto think like why are we doing this
(15:12):
and what's it and do your two brandshave something in common but also
offer each other something else topush your brand into a new space.
Mmm.
Yeah so I'd like say think aboutcollaborations quite carefully
in terms of making sure it'slike the right fit for you.
(15:33):
Yeah.
So I'd say most of them, havecome like pretty organically.
The rest reaching out or kind ofpeople finding us through Insta.
And yeah, I think going forward yeah,we're always open to collaborations.
We love doing it.
It's just now luckily they'retending to get a bit like bigger in
terms of like scope or the brand.
(15:54):
So it's more time from our side.
There's limited hours in the day.
So now we're having to planit out a little bit more.
So we're actually working on somethingfor well, it will come out in like
summer 2026, I think that's actuallythe process behind what we're
collaborating on takes a long time.
(16:15):
So there'll be lots of like work inbetween them, but the actual product
probably won't be out till 2026.
And then another one, whichis that should be next year.
So yeah, it's kind of like keepingus busy and try and drop in
like something else in between.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's such a good point.
Thinking about it strategically, butyeah, but just not being afraid to
(16:36):
just reach out if you see people thatyou do think would be a perfect fit.
Yeah, definitely.
And I think Instagram for us hasbeen like a massive, that's really
where we've made all of our kind ofconnections with like even influencers
or bloggers or like people in thatinterior space very early on when I
said we were like teasing our launch.
(16:58):
We're really lucky that like peoplelike Kate Watson-Smythe and Sophie
Robinson, like two really big kindof people in the interior space on
Instagram started paying like attentionor interest in what we were doing.
Yes.
Once we did launch, they shared someof our images on their feed or stories.
(17:21):
And that really drove alot more people to us.
And yeah, anyone starting out juststart like connecting with people.
Like on socials that you yeah, arelike fans of or like respect or
inspire you or eventually you'd loveto connect better with and just start
that kind of networking, I guess,like, at least like social networking.
(17:43):
No, totally.
Networking like early on.
Yeah.
And I think it's interesting becauseobviously what you were doing where
you have a very defined aesthetic,you know, it's you and quite clear
handwriting when you see something.
It very much says Divine Savages, right?
You know, it's so there willbe people who will absolutely
(18:04):
love that and respond to that.
And then there's going to be theminimalists of this world who that's
just not ever going to be their thing.
Right.
And I suppose the kind of cleareryou are about who you are, the
more you'll attract the people wholove it, which is what you need.
Yeah, you need to know who's intoyour product at the end of the day.
And yeah, there is, there's no point inus trying to tempt the kind of gray, sandy
(18:30):
fans to us, cause it's not what we do.
I was going to mention like, Ithink back on the PR and like
magazine, like area, I guess.
Interiors is obviously a veryvisual kind of medium, like design.
So photography, images are like key to it.
So I think that's why like PR forus, like we have that image bank now.
(18:54):
We're quite like seven years in.
So thankfully we have a lot of images inour kind of library that we can share.
So when journalists or editors orwhatever, are looking for something.
Like they are often quite specificrequests, but hopefully we have
something like that we share withthem that kind of fits their brief.
Right.
Right.
(19:14):
Yes.
So, good imagery.
And that was that a very consciousdecision right from the get go?
Good imagery.
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah.
I think, I mean, and again, Instagramhas changed so much in seven years.
Everything's elevated, like every,everyone like is so professional
now with the kit and the tech.
So yeah.
(19:34):
And I mean, yeah, obviously like whatwe, the core of what we do is wallpaper.
So yeah, those images are like key forus getting across like our aesthetic,
the print, the design, the detail.
Yeah.
No, I think that's so, so important.
I think if you are going to makePR part of your strategy, then
that imagery is really crucial.
(19:56):
Isn't it?
Yeah, and just also making it easy forthe journalists and the writers that
are creating those articles at the endof the day, I think they just want you
need to make their life like, as easyas possible, because they're so busy.
And they get so many requests.
So if you've got even if it's justlike a Dropbox, but really lovely
(20:17):
organized folders with whateverit is, like that your brand does,
but just make it like super clear.
So like we have living room,dining room, kitchen, like folders.
And also it makes PR teams life easierif they get a request for a kitchen,
they know they can go straight to thatfolder and that's all our kitchen imagery.
(20:38):
And then they can pick throughthat this most suitable kind
of images for that request.
Yeah, yeah.
And I'm sure it makes a difference.
I mean, I think about, you know,even my sort of very limited what
I do for Forbes, where I'm writing.
If somebody, if I send out somebody arequest to say, can you give me a quote
on XYZ and they immediately, you know,they write back very promptly and give
(21:00):
me something useful, then definitelyguarantee that next time I need something
along those lines and I'll think of theperson who was super helpful and, you
know, gave me what I needed as opposed tosomeone who didn't respond or took ages
to respond or didn't follow the brief.
And I'm sure it's the samewith magazines, right?
You know, they know that you've gotbeautiful imagery and you're super
(21:20):
helpful and you make their life easier.
Then why wouldn't theylean on what you're doing?
And come to you again and again.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah now we've like built up likea dialogue through our PR team as
well, that also that's a strengththat they bring to the table.
They know they can come to us andget like something really quick.
And then they're oftenlike working to deadlines.
(21:41):
So yeah, that's good.
They can rely on us.
Fantastic.
So talk a little bitabout the challenges then.
So we've talked about thekind of the high points.
What have been some of thechallenges of building a brand
over the last seven years?
Yeah, as I said, Instagram was likean amazing platform for us when we
launched seven years ago, but it wasvery much like just photography image
(22:03):
driven and obviously, cut to 2024and it's way more like video focused.
And the algorithm is alwayschanging and we are very lucky.
Like we grew on Instagram quite quickly.
Seven years ago, it was a loteasier to like, more people saw
your posts gained more followers.
And we've got a really strong,like baseline now of like
(22:25):
over a 100K, which is amazing.
It's so hard to grow now.
Like we are very like, likesmaller numbers compared to like
kind of five, seven years ago.
But also it's it's an evolvingplatform and so it's great and
like new features come out.
So I think like we, you just need toembrace those as much as like some people
(22:46):
kind of like moan or don't like change.
Oh, they're changing it again, but iflike they add those new features, so
like use them and because then if youdo the algorithm is going to notice
that and push your content out more.
As an example, like the Notesfeature is quite new and not many
(23:06):
people are sure like, "Oh, whyis it like, how's it different to
like just commenting," and stuff?
But we've like experimented abit and actually posts where we've
encouraged people to like, use theNote function have done significantly
better than just a normal post.
So yeah, it's just like riding withthe changes really and embracing them.
And then, yeah, other challenges.
(23:27):
I mean, as we've grown I mean,we started the brand and we were
running it out of our house.
Initially the spare roombecame like the stock room.
And we were like shippingeverything ourselves.
But yeah, it kind of got toa tipping point where like we
couldn't manage that anymore.
And I was still workingkind of full time in TV.
Oh wow.
(23:49):
So that was fun.
So yeah, we kind of switched toa fulfillment kind of company
who've been really great, actually.
We're still with them now.
And they manage all of our stockand like holding stock and shipping.
But it's still challenges and makingthat as efficient as possible.
And then obviously why weended up speaking together as
(24:09):
like stock management for us.
Because it's over there in thiswarehouse, like somewhere it's
like, I really get involved in.
So it's quite, it got a littlebit unruly in terms of just the
amount of stock that we had.
Mm.
On top of that.
So that's always a bit of a challengewhen you're I guess, running it remotely.
(24:30):
Yes.
It's not a physical thing that you see.
It's just like in a spreadsheet, so.
Yeah, yeah.
It's why a lot of the, you know, overthe years, big retailers, they always
love to send the product teams to thewarehouse to physically see things.
I should probably do atrip and be horrified.
(24:55):
And it was always like the walk ofshame where something that you'd
overbought would be like the beatyou'd walk past six rows of it.
You think, okay.
It's like part and parcel ofrunning your own businesses.
There's always going to bechallenges, but that's kind of
why we love it at the same time.
Yeah, for sure.
(25:15):
So yes, you mentioned that you're inthe mastermind and obviously you've been
in the mastermind for a few months now.
So yeah, I just love to hear yourwords, how you found that and how
that's helped with the business.
Yeah, I mean, it's been great.
For me, like the key thing waslike just trying to get on top of
a bit more processes because again,I'm not coming from a business
(25:39):
background and Tom is very creative.
He just kind of manages all of that size.
And then my role earlier on was justlike helping out on bits and pieces.
And then obviously that's grown becausethose bits, pieces, got a lot to manage.
So yeah, I kind of really waslooking for just a bit more, yeah.
(26:02):
Like insight and expertise on, yeah.
How to like manage those processesthat we didn't necessarily
have in place from the get go.
And just thinking more, yeah, justabout like actually how to like keep
on top of your business, how to bettertrack things, whether it be just more
(26:23):
simple things like kind of forecastingand sales forecasting to yeah, stock
management and what to do better.
And how to like keep on top of things.
So it's been super useful fromjust those like key things for us.
Yeah.
I always say that most people startproducts, but businesses because of the
(26:46):
love of the product, which is exactly,as you said, it was something that
you'd seen a gap in the market and Tomobviously had his background and it lent
itself to creating something unique.
People have responded and it'sgrown brilliantly over seven years.
And then it's like, I'm not saying it'squite so much the case in your case,
but sometimes people say to me, well,like I accidentally started a business,
(27:08):
you know, or it can feel a bit likethat, that you go, Oh, hang on a minute.
Oh, there's all theseother things as well.
So it's really great.
It's always fabulous to work with peoplewho are at that stage where you've grown.
And then it's like, it was likethe phrase new level, new devil.
It's you get to a set when you'refirst starting out, you think it's all
about growth, which obviously is veryimportant, but then you get to a certain
point where you're like, Oh, right.
(27:30):
Okay, what got me here isn'tgoing to be what gets me there.
So, yeah, and it's fantasticto take that time and put those
pieces into place as it were.
So you've shared some of your, sharedsome really great tips actually for
people who might be, especially ininteriors and thinking about how to
build collaborations and PR, but isthere anything else that either you
would recommend to someone who's maybe abit earlier on in the journey, or maybe
(27:54):
something that you wish that you'd known?
As I like alluded to at the start, welike it took us a while to get going
because we were like, Oh, a bit nervous.
And Oh, is this do weknow what we're doing?
And who are we to think that wecould like design and make wallpaper?
We've never done that before.
And so like, yeah, just kind ofignore those like negative things.
(28:15):
Like thoughts and just crack onwith it because we probably would
have had a year headstart if we had.
So yeah, it's like just, ifyou got an idea and you're
passionate about it, just kind of.
Go.
Go for it, launch it, and then youcan always like, you'll find the
answers like in the moment really.
(28:35):
We were out there and then it's Oh,if we needed to solve a problem,
like we just had to get on with itthen cause we couldn't ignore it.
Yes.
Again, like if you have, if you're likeready to go, but just look at other
people, like in that space and see whatnot as a kind of not to copy or like in.
But more of a like inspiration andjust see what they're doing like well.
(28:57):
And it's really in like insightfulto like learn from other people
in that like similar space to you.
Just to see how they do it and yeah,you might find some answers there like
I think very like especially in theinteriors where people are like very open
and Tom came from a fashion backgroundwhere it was quite closed and like people
(29:20):
necessarily between like businessesand brands would like never like dream
of sharing like contacts or anything.
But we were like amazingly surprised atlike how open like people on Instagram
were and like supportive and Oh, youneed to speak to like, you need that.
Oh, you should speak to this person.
Oh, wow.
yeah, like very like open interms of like sharing insight.
(29:43):
So never like, don't be afraid tolike ask other people if you've got
like, a connection with them already.
Yeah, if you have a question,I'm sure they'd be happy to help.
And do you find as well, justworking with Tom, I mean, it seems
pretty clear, pretty well defined.
So he does the more creative element.
And you're doing the business andthe business development, but is that
(30:03):
something that you find that you'vehad to kind of, it's evolved over time.
You've had to keep discussing,negotiating, or has it always
been pretty much clear cut?
Yeah, we've been quite lucky like, yeah,it's been pretty clear cut from day one,
really I don't come from I'm creativein ways, but I could never create a
wallpaper or an art print or whatever.
(30:25):
So that's very much his like, there's likecreative director and he does all of that.
He's in charge of all ofthat, the imagery and stuff.
And then I guess I'm more like,yeah, like business and brand kind
of director and it's yeah, works thatway I get on with what I need to do
in terms of like business operations.
But then also like pushing the businessforward and yeah, getting the brand
(30:50):
out there, working with other people,like networking, that kind of thing.
It does work.
Well, we just get on with what we need todo, talk to each other when we need to.
And what's next?
What's the 2025 plans for Divine Savages?
(31:11):
I mean, what is going on?
So, yeah, I mean, we've got like thesetwo collaborations that like exciting.
And yeah, watch this space to likefind out more, but that will be
keeping us busy for the first half.
Part of one of those will be like anew collection, but with this brand.
So that's exciting.
So we're probably the first quarterwe'll be like developing that in terms
(31:33):
of sampling colorways, making sure all ofthat is ready to go in spring, hopefully.
We have our showroom here in Bath,so that's always like evolving.
We're building our kindof B2B kind of trade.
So working with like interiordesigners and architects and we
want to focus obviously like springas like new year, like lots of
(31:55):
projects get underway in residential.
Like conversely, like commercial andhospitality carries on like throughout
the year, but we'll be targeting thoseresidential projects that are like people
are starting to think about DIY and yeah,working with our trade partners to like,
make sure Divine Savages is in the mix.
So that will kind of the firsthalf of the year, really.
(32:17):
Fantastic.
And if anyone's planning a home projectand wants to go take a look, where
can they find out more about you?
Yeah, so divinesavages.com.
You can kind of browse all ofour like collections on there.
But if you're in the Somerset area,then yeah, we're in Bath at five
Margaret's buildings at the top of town.
So come and say hi.
(32:38):
Thank you so much for listening.
Do go check out divinesavages.comor go check out their Instagram.
If you want some serious interiorsenvy as well as heaps of inspiration
for your next project, it is anabsolutely stunning brand and great
to have Jamie on with me today.
If you want to know more aboutthe mastermind, then check out
the link in the show notes.
It will take you to the websitewhere you can find out more
(33:00):
and book a call to have a chat.
Otherwise, if you have a momentto like and review the podcast,
it makes a huge difference aswell as rating it if you can.
And if you like, follow, subscribe,whatever it's called on the platform you
listen to, you'll be the first to knowabout each new episode, which comes out
every Thursday and I'll see you next week.
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