#12WeeksToPeak #Sales Training #selfimprovement
This Is What Wins in Sales, Says Dr. Cindy McGovern, The 1st Lady of Sales
00:00 Reconnecting and New Ventures
03:14 The Evolution of Sales Post-COVID
05:57 Prospecting in a Distracted World
09:05 The Balance of Automation and Personalization
11:59 The Journey into Sales and Communication
17:58 Sales as a Life Skill
18:30 The Sales Mindset in Everyday Life
20:06 Building an Online Academy for Sales Training
22:27 The Importance of Team Collaboration in Sales
23:12 The Art of Customizing Speeches for Different Audiences
25:38 Core Principles of Sales and Personal Branding
28:20 The Journey of a Speaker: Challenges and Opportunities
30:16 The Meaning Behind Orange Leaf Consulting
31:27 Passion for College Football and Southern Culture
Not for the mediocre majority: Learn how I get more done in a quarter than most achieve in a decade in 12 Weeks To Peak™ https://wesschaeffer.com/12w
Connect with me:
- X -- https://X.com/saleswhisperer
- Instagram -- https://instagram.com/saleswhisperer
- LinkedIn -- http://www.linkedin.com/in/thesaleswhisperer/
#12WeeksToPeak #Sales Training #SelfImprovement
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Dr. Cindy McGovern after five and a half years from episode
402. Welcome back to the sales
podcast. How the heck are you?
I'm doing great. It's good to see you again, Wes.
Thanks for having me back. I can't believe how much you've
put me off. Good thing I'm the sales
whisperer and I how did you and I harassed you and I begged and
(00:23):
I pleaded and I cajoled and whatelse?
I manipulated, I cried. I'm not, ever seen a grown man
cry? It ain't pretty.
It got you on the show, huh? Why you got it?
Why you make me work so hard? You know, guess I just like the
chase. You know, it's like one of those
things. I'm used to chasing people as a
salesperson, so, you know. you go.
(00:44):
You've been traveling, you've been speaking, right?
All of the above, a lot in the last, since we've seen each
other, a lot of international stuff, had a new book come out,
launched an academy, doing the thing, know, trying to get out
there and help these salespeoplegrow their business, shorten
their sales cycle, and have a little more fun in the process.
So got a couple of books there behind you.
(01:05):
So we first talked about every job as a sales job, but the one
to the right is kind of cut off.Sell yourself?
Sell yourself. that is the one that came out about a year and a
half ago. And this one is on selling you.
So really personal branding. And, you know, before you sell
anything, your product or service, you've got to sell
(01:26):
yourself. You got to build trust.
So that's really the focus of that one is helping people to
understand that you're selling 24 seven online when you're
asleep, your profiles, your social media.
So better make sure it's on purpose.
And that message is out there that you want the world to know.
Yeah, for sure. And you got another, your third
coming out this year. It is, it is coming out late
(01:48):
this fall and this one's on sortof the internal sales
conversation. Selling ourselves on the idea
that we need to do something, that we can do something,
overcoming some of those nasty imposter pieces, but it's
actually deeper than that. It goes into a lot of research
on psychology and helping you togive yourself permission to kind
of step into the spotlight of your own life.
(02:11):
It's hard, huh? I've suffered from that.
I probably suffer from that the most. mean, of all the, all the
ailments I could have, it's like, who am I?
Right? Who am I to put myself out
there? It's like, but you got to do it.
Absolutely, absolutely. so we were talking just before we hit
record. Um, I mean, we, we caught up
(02:32):
with each other, you know, before the world stopped, like
you said, um, before we get into, well, a lot has changed.
What has stayed the same? What should people continue
doing? Like that never went away after
with COVID. this is one of my favorite questions because
people think, you know, post COVID post pandemic that
(02:53):
everything is different. And yes, there are things that
are different. We're doing a lot more video
calls. We're doing a lot more remote.
There's a hybrid world, right? But the things that don't change
are people have to trust you to buy from you.
You have to prospect more than you just sit on your butt and
you got to ask. So if we look at sort of the
most fundamental pieces of sales, those have not changed
(03:17):
until we are bots selling to bots.
They're people before their prospects.
Let's get out there. Let's invite them to do business
with us. Let's build that trust and then
create advocates that are out there telling your story for you
as well. How do I prospect if they're all
hiding behind cell phones and caller ID and work from home
(03:37):
environment? can't even direct mail them
because they're not the office anymore.
That's exactly right. So that's where that online
presence and that's actually partially why I wrote the book,
Yourself is because we do have to sell ourselves differently.
You can't just walk into an office of a prospect.
And like you said, you can't even direct mail a lot of them
because their mailing address goes to some massive mail room
(03:59):
that they never receive it. So you've got to really position
yourself as that subject matter expert.
You've got to become the flower,not the bee.
You've got to be the guy or gal that they come to for that.
And so that's where you're branding yourself.
And then it is the outreach though.
That outreach cannot stop. You cannot just have this lovely
(04:19):
website or lovely whatever, social media presence.
It's gotta be you continuing to reach out and you've got to get
a little creative in that. And that's where video reach out
has come in. People are using video platforms
now more than ever. And funny enough, I've got a
handwritten note somebody sent me the other day.
I'm like, I got one of those in a long time.
(04:39):
So. How to cool.
How'd they find your address? I imagine you work from home,
right? the office.
No, no, no, I've got an office. They sent it to the office.
Yeah. Interesting.
Yeah, I mean, what's old is new,right?
People are handwritten note. know, I've got in my my five
(05:01):
weeks to peak program, right? For the salespeople.
Mael Mael every day write a note.
What? You know, it's like it's it's
grueling. It's.
It's longer term, but it builds up, you know, and like anything
I tell people, you know, January1st, did you go to the gym from
(05:25):
like midnight to midnight and just, and you're good for the
year, you know, or like, is thatwhen you set the day you start
your 30th and 90 minute routine and then build on that for the
year, but it gets boring and we're under pressure.
Cindy, what the hell you're going to close that deal.
Don't make me put you on a, on aPIP.
The next thing I know. I'm cold emailing, I'm spamming,
(05:48):
I'm begging. how do we keep the wolves at bay when, I mean, it
feels like sales cycles have lengthened now.
Is that accurate or am I just not as good at shifting my
prospecting? And so once I make the pivot to
the new order, new world, then my sales cycles will shorten
(06:09):
again. Well, you know what's funny
though? I do think that they have
lengthened and I see that with all of our clients that are on
leaf consulting. Like literally see that
everywhere. And I think it's because not
only are we competing for their business, but we're also
competing for their attention. And we live in an incredibly
distracted society, which is different than even five years
(06:30):
ago, which is different than 10 years prior and 10 years prior
to that. So when you think about it, and
this is one of my favorite things to tell salespeople, I
say, I want you to not take thispersonal when the prospect
ignores you the first 12 times you reach out to them.
And the way that I want you to do this experiment, go to the
grocery store. Actually, don't get your
groceries delivered. Go to the grocery store and
(06:50):
stand in line. And I want you to see what
everybody does in line. No one is talking to anybody.
Nobody's even looking around. Everyone is completely
distracted. So I tell all the sales folks
that I coach, I'm like, that's what you're competing against.
You're competing against the lure of social media, the lure
of that article, the lure of that text message.
(07:13):
And that's at the grocery store.That's when there's nothing else
to do. Then you put them in their
office environment when they actually have emails to answer,
meetings to go to, clients to deal with, colleagues to deal
with. That's what you're trying to tap
them on the shoulder and get their attention from.
So don't take it personal. You've got to really have that
(07:33):
routine, that sales cardio, built into your day.
Yeah, you've got to build it. I've told this story for years
and, um, I was, my wife was having surgery 12 years ago and
I was just sitting in the, in the lobby, waiting, know, for
(07:57):
hours, right. And, a call came in and, I'm
like, well, might as well answerit, you know, it will distract
me. And it was like a no caller ID
kind of thing. And it was from this kind of
self-defense place, a shooting place that I liked.
And I bought some of their stuffand they were having this big
promo and it was literally the last day.
(08:17):
But because we've been kind of caught up with surgery prep and
whatever, I just wasn't paying attention.
You know, so these are people I wanted to hear from.
But I was busy, you know, life gets in the way. so, and I
bought, I write that boom, pressone, whatever.
And I bought their stuff. Yesterday, now my mother-in-law
(08:39):
is going through some stuff, some health issues and we are
out of sorts. My wife's over there and nonstop
and so again, I'm over there last night and we're just
hanging out and just all trying to be together.
I'm scrolling my phone, catchingup on emails.
There's an email from a guy I wanted to hear from and I missed
(09:03):
like two previous emails. I'm like, hey man. perfect
examples. missed you. Yes, let's do this.
You know, thanks for being persistent. it's persistence
wins, but I mean, how much of that should be automated?
You know, how much of it should be personalized?
You know, that's a good question.
(09:24):
And I always sort of look at that as the definition between
sales and marketing, right? Like marketing gets you the at
bat. Sales is where you build a
relationship, in my opinion. But I think one of the things is
we are so conditioned to automatic outreach right now.
We are so conditioned to the botoutreach that I think that's
why, even when it's somebody we want to hear from, we dismiss
(09:45):
it. Because if there's not something
that absolutely grabs your attention in that subject line,
if there's not something that absolutely stops you dead in
your tracks, so you think about watching that video or reading
that email or looking at that text, you scroll right past it.
So in my opinion, I don't think anything is gonna replace the
personal outreach, but you can automate some of that.
(10:06):
Like if you do a bunch of videos, right?
So let's say that I think I'm gonna have to reach out to Wes
six times. I'm gonna personalize six videos
and schedule them maybe to go out to you.
You can still use technology, but it's still gonna be me with
Wes's name on my phone, me pointing at that going, hey Wes,
so you know it's personal. You know that it's not some
(10:27):
generic something I sent out to everybody.
Yeah, and uh, it's been years. I haven't gotten one of these in
a while, but it was years ago. You know, they would, they would
mail a video with a GIF and likethey're holding up like a
whiteboard and then have your name, you know, like that was,
that was cutting edge 10, 12 years ago.
Right. But, but I still get messages in
(10:50):
the last couple of weeks. Like I got a message.
I think it was through LinkedIn.It was a video.
I think it was through LinkedIn and they try.
They're implying that it was personal, but they didn't say my
name. And so I tell people, and I tell
people all the time, say their name.
We are distrusting. We are jaded.
You know, and so, but what do salespeople do?
(11:12):
Like they're an employee. They may not have the
permissions to create a drip sequence.
So it's just on their, on them. Just pound it out, send off that
personal email. You know, that's where they need
to sell their employer. Honestly, that's where you go to
the employer and you have the conversation of, this is
(11:35):
something that can help us increase our clothes ratio,
shorten our sales cycle. Advocate for the things that you
need. Advocate for the tools.
I mean, I think back to when, and this is how long ago it was,
Wes, so go down memory lane withme, but can you imagine as an
author now, you and I both writebooks, can you imagine having to
write a book on a typewriter? No.
(11:57):
Like that would have, I probablywould have never finished.
Same, same, but can you imagine literally, you make one mistake,
you've got to go back to the, you know, cause I, I can't even
imagine we would have advocated like, Hey, I'm going to need a
computer. I'm going to need a select a
type right back in the day. So, but, truly thinking about
(12:18):
that is an opportunity for you to sell your employer on the
resources you need. If you can't get them, you can't
get the permissions, they don't want to do it because of
firewall settings or something like that, that does not negate
you from doing those things on social media.
There is no firewall on some of those platforms where you can
still send a video, you can do those things.
So you got to get creative in that regard.
(12:40):
Yeah, in the 12 weeks to peak, have them write every day. know,
and it's like, clarifies your thinking, you know, and then, I
can't write for my company. You can make an article on
LinkedIn. Yeah.
You can make a Twitter thread. You know, worst case, write your
(13:03):
own stuff and just save it. And it's FAQs. deeper insight
that you can copy and paste and send over.
You know, because I always tell people it's like we prove our
competency by the questions thatwe ask.
You know, and if we already havethe answer, we know enough to
ask a deep question and we already have answered that
(13:25):
question, and can send that overas a resource, they're like, who
is this magician? You know, but people don't want
to write. Most people, it takes
discipline. Yeah, yeah. it's like, well then
get out of sales. but I love people.
If you love people, go to HR, right?
(13:47):
Sales, you gotta wear a lot of hats.
I was coaching a salesperson yesterday and we were talking
about emails that he had sent toa prospective client and we were
tweaking the language and he said, I don't want semantics
help. And I said, then you don't want
sales help because you're literally selling yourself in
every single one of these emails.
And it's semantics. It's the word choice that you're
(14:08):
using. If you sound generic, it comes
across as generic. You got to differentiate
yourself in every touch point you send out there.
So I love that you make them right. think that's a great
idea. Yeah.
So what is organizational communication?
That's your PhD, right? What does that mean?
How did you find that? well it so it's morphed but when
(14:32):
I did my PhD 25 years ago, whichis hard to say I Yes, clearly
clearly. Yes seven.
Let's go with that. Let's stay with that Wes.
I appreciate that. Yeah we we had talked about this
my major professor and I talked about this and there wasn't
really a track for it yet So we called it organizational
(14:54):
communication. Now it would be probably org
development or something like that.
But it's a third psychology, a third communication, and a third
business. So I diagnose people who work
within an organizational structure to help them be more
effective through their communication.
And my dissertation was on nonverbal communication and how
that creates rule systems. I know.
(15:14):
Wacky. What am I thinking right now?
So what was your goal? Like did you wanna work at like
a big fortune 500 company and like help them streamline
things? Did you wanna go out on your
own? Like what was your path, your
vision back then? My vision back then was I
(15:35):
thought I was going to teach. I wanted to be a college
professor. I wanted to continue the
research. I wanted to help that next
generation. And fast forward, I did that for
about five years and realized I preferred adults to the 18 to 24
year old crowd. And I realized that because I
started consulting in the summers, which a lot of
professors do. And I was like, wait a second,
(15:56):
this is fun. And so I went into consulting
full time. Then I was put in a sales role
and here I am. Wow, I started my company 17
years ago. That's hard to believe.
Nice. What do mean you were put into a
sales role? Well, funny enough, since it's
the sales podcast. Caught that?
Caught that? So note to the listeners, words
(16:19):
mean things. But anyway.
See, back to semantics. So I never wanted to be in
sales, and now I'm known as the first lady of sales, which is
always funny for people. But I thought sales was pushy,
icky, manipulative, cheesy, all the things.
Like I had this avatar in my head of like, I call him Tommy
Two Thumbs, but it's like the used car sales, really pushy,
(16:40):
you know, hey, I'm gonna tell you anything I need to.
Yeah, there you go, there you go.
I have this on my desk when I give talks in person, but you
know, but we're always remote. like, what do we think of
salespeople? You know, you'll get the, the,
the do-gooders optimistic cheerful helpful.
I'm like, shut up. That is not what, when I say use
(17:01):
car salesman, pushy. There you go. know, always comes
out. It's true.
And that was my perception of sales.
So I was at a company and I got put into a sales role and honest
to goodness, I thought I was gonna get fired.
So I'm like, I can't sell. I'm not pushy.
I'm nice. I'm kind to people like. got,
mean, you, got this PhD. I'm not, I would never think,
(17:22):
let me get this PhD and make them hammer out the cold calls.
Right? Exactly.
But so my boss saw something in me to be able to help people.
And that's really what sales is.And you know that that's what we
do. It's helping others.
And I'll walk away if I'm not a fit.
You don't have to be pushy in sales.
If you have to be pushing in sales, you didn't do your
(17:44):
research, in my opinion. There shouldn't be a push.
It should be a pull. It should be, hey, you want to
come over here? Come on.
Here's the stuff I got. I'm going ask you enough
questions and make you curious. And then you're going to want
this. And if you don't want it, That's
okay, I'm not gonna run out of prospects.
There's seven billion people on the planet.
I'll find somebody else. But I got put in that sales
role. And literally about six months
in is when I realized, I'm like,wait a second, I know how to do
(18:04):
this. I just didn't call it sales.
I called it convincing, persuading.
And so that was actually what brought me to write my first
book. Because I do have this PhD and I
was never taught sales skills. And it's kind of crazy to think
about. I have all these degrees in
communication, but I wasn't taught sales.
We don't teach that. as a life skill, and it is.
(18:27):
It's totally everything is sales.
People say sales is the second oldest profession.
I go, it's the first profession.Like it or not, they had to
haggle on terms and payment. So the sale was made first.
You can't talk about that. But whatever.
I digress. But every job really is a sales
(18:49):
job because you have to get interviewed.
That's nothing but a sales conversation, but people don't
think of it like that. Yeah, to their own demise,
right? Because like, you the Bible
says, you know, when two or moregathered in my name, like there
I am, right? But it's like when two or more
people meet, a sale is made, right?
You know, hey, Cindy, where, where do you want to go to
lunch? I don't care.
(19:10):
Okay. How about Mexican food?
No, I Mexican food yesterday. How about Italian?
Yeah. I mean, you're making a sale.
That's not really, that's not really selling.
Like, what is it? What is it?
You know, so sales. And I tell people all the time,
I get a minimum. You need to know what's being
done against you because it's everywhere.
(19:32):
Go buy a domain name at GoDaddy and see the 497 steps you have
to say yes or no to before you take just take my money.
It's like, get gas. Do you have a Vons card?
I'm late. Put some gas in my car, you
(19:52):
gotta check in, you gotta give me your cell phone number, it's
all a sale. And then while you're there,
there's a video and a speaker, hey, you should get some
Gatorade, you know? It's happening to us everywhere.
So at a minimum, be aware of it,right?
Be aware and know when you're being sold to and when you're
being invited to buy, and there's a big difference.
Right. So in the last, so took us a
(20:15):
couple of months to catch up. You've been, were you out of the
country? Okay.
Just speaking like a big conference or what?
speaking and then I did a littletravel at the tail end.
I was gone the whole month of November at the end of last year
and unfortunately, it kind of coincided with holiday stuff so
then it was just catch up end ofyear things.
(20:36):
But I'm so glad we were able to finally reconnect.
This is so fun and just hearing what's going on in your world.
Five and a half years. So, what's the goal moving
forward? You got a new book coming out.
Are you doubling down more the same?
Are you branching out? Are trying new things?
(20:59):
Are you doing cold email? Are you back to direct mail?
Do webinars work? Like what's working today?
So a couple of different things.So I started an online academy a
few years ago, Orange Leaf Academy.
And it's for salespeople and what I would call
non-salespeople, but we know everybody's a salesperson.
But the folks that really wouldn't consider themselves in
(21:20):
sales, there's classes for them too to help them sell themselves
better. There's personal branding.
For salespeople, we've got classes to shorten the sales
cycle. All of the above, we've got some
that are industry specific as well.
And so that's been a big piece. So we're doing a lot more email
marketing to get the word out aswe launch those courses.
And we're doing some click funnels and things like that,
which has been really fun to learn because that's not my
(21:43):
world. And I've got an amazing team at
Orange Leaf that magically makesall those things happen.
Shout out to y'all. And a lot of it is speaking
gigs, though. So that's a lot of the travel.
I've got some international travel coming up next month as
well. It's still speaking, getting out
there, trying to get in front ofaudiences and help people
realize that they need sales. They're doing it all day.
(22:05):
It's coming at them all day, like you said, and help them do
it more effectively, see it so that they can respond to it
better. But really helping those
salespeople to realize everybodyin your organization is in
sales. So if you're a sales rep, you
got an account manager over here, you got operations trying
to deliver, there's an inside sales conversation to make sure
those people are on the same page. getting everybody rowing
(22:27):
in the same direction. So that's a lot of the stuff
I've been doing is not just to the sales rep audience, but to
the service side of the house aswell.
Yeah. So when you talk about learning
that stuff, like a ClickFunnels,how much are you really trying
to learn it? Um, cause I always tell folks
when they're, cause that's been my space, right?
Since like 2008, I got into FusionSolve and HubSpot,
(22:51):
Entroport, all these tools. And I tell most owners, it's
like, it's not in your best interest to master this stuff,
but you do need to be conversantor you'll get the wool pulled
over your eyes, right? You got to know enough.
To ask the questions, you got toknow enough, like, hmm, it's not
passing the sniff test, you know?
So like how hands-on are you trying to be?
(23:12):
Well, so that's the team. So that's my folks.
I have an incredible team here at Orange Leaf that they are the
specialists. I know my swim lane, Wes.
I'm the dancing chicken. I gotta get out there and bring
in the business. And then they do the hard stuff.
So they're incredible. Yeah, good.
(23:32):
And have you kind of gotten to alevel and you're speaking?
mean, do the invitations come toyou or you still having to do
outreach? You know, I have been very
fortunate for the last few yearsthat I do get a lot of, you
know, a fair amount of requests,I'd say more than not, but I
still do a whole lot of outreach.
I am not afraid to ask. I am always looking for another
(23:53):
audience. I mean, just like you, we want
to go help people. So the more audiences and more
people I can get in front of, the more I can evangelize the
message and get it out there. So I am always looking.
We do a fair amount of my publicist for my books also does
a fair amount of outreach on my behalf to get speaking gigs too.
So if you give 10 talks or maybelooking back on your last 10,
(24:17):
are they pretty much identical or how much variance is there?
Or do you have like three or four and it just depends on what
they want you to cover. Like you may give three, three
and four, you know, out of the last 10.
I never gave the same speech twice.
So mine are always customized for the audience. do a D.
(24:37):
This is the PhD nerd in me. I can't help it.
But this is where I do a deep dive.
I spoke for a container shippingcontainer company and I
interviewed some of their managers and their sales people
just like to get the lingo so I could get some of that
information. I mean, we're in sales, right?
So I've got to sell them this idea that I understand their
world and establish my credibility with them so they
(24:57):
want to hear what I've got to talk about.
I wanted to make sure I knew howthings worked so that I could
speak to that language and help them see how sales was going to
help them as a larger organization, not just for you
know, umpteen salespeople they had.
So if everyone is unique, mean, is there still a core?
you have like a, I mean, you have your principles, right?
(25:20):
The main, the big breakthroughs,like you're, like I've got a
selling equals dating pipeline that I always cover, right?
Stages and tie it to dating. Oh, okay, I get it, you know?
So even though you're using their vernacular, are you
overlaying it like on a core set?
Yeah. Yeah, it's usually my five step
(25:42):
sales process to plan, look for the opportunities, establish the
trust and listen, ask for the sale and then follow up.
So there's usually something around that process, but it also
depends on the group. I spoke to a keynote group in
Idaho and it was really more about them getting fans speaking
for them. that you could still say there's the five steps, but
(26:03):
it was slightly different in terms of that approach. it's
really kind of my favorite fun thing is to create those
speeches for those audiences, because I get to learn about
them. And then it really does kind of
hit home a little bit more, I find, so that they come up and
they're like, my gosh, I felt like you were talking to me
because you knew this. And you know that's like the
best feeling in the world. yeah,yeah and I get lined up.
(26:27):
I know that's cool. best thing. That's the best feeling.
I've got one on Thursday and I'mlike, yes.
Yeah, it's uh, yeah, that's cool.
And uh, you get there early and I go mingle like the night
before or do you like to be kindof hidden and come out like pow
and make a splash? No, if I can, I love to get
(26:48):
there early. Unfortunately, in recent years,
my schedule has not always permitted that.
In fact, last year, I landed 90 minutes before I had to be on
stage because of flight delays. So that was a little hairy.
So I'm coming in hot on two wheels a few times here.
So Thursday, I'll have a little bit of time in the morning to
(27:09):
bounce around and say hello to everybody, introduce myself.
reminds me I've I've been meaning to do this and I gotta
just do it. I gotta find an assistant, but
I, I live with no traffic 90 minutes from LA, but there's
never no traffic. So I'm like 12 days from LA, but
you know, somewhere between 90 minutes and 12 days I can get to
LA. Uh, I'm 60 minutes from San
(27:31):
Diego, an hour from Disneyland, three and a half from Vegas,
four and a half from Phoenix. I want to be. the emergency
backup. Now, obviously, if you're 90
minutes, that's not enough time,but like somebody gets sick,
right? your flight gets weather
delayed. Like, I'm not making it.
(27:53):
You you're supposed to land a day at noon to speak at 6 p.m.
Like, I want to be the alternate.
Nice. I like that.
And on the West Coast, I mean, I'm in San Francisco, so on the
West Coast, if there's a West Coast gig, I got you.
I like this. but it's like I candrive.
I don't even have to wait on an airline.
I can drive to all those places.What are you going to talk
about? Look, don't be picky because
(28:13):
that high dollar person, they ain't coming.
Right. So I'm going to be less cost,
but it'll be pretty good. Here we go.
If I've got SoCal ones, I'll flip them to you.
You got NorCal ones, you flip them to me.
See, ladies and gentlemen. know people think I'm crazy.
I got seven kids and it's like, I didn't like being gone, you
know, and um, and I'm a big guy.don't like you're going to give
(28:38):
me business or first. No.
Okay. Then I don't, I don't want to
go. I got flew to Jacksonville and
uh, golly North Carolina and I'mjust, I don't know.
Three, the three hour time chain, two hours.
I'm okay. Three hours.
It wrecks me. I'm like, I'm tired of jet lag.
I don't know. Yeah, tomorrow morning I'm up at
430 to get a flight to go to theEast Coast.
(29:00):
So yeah, that's the tough one. And then when you're back the
next day, that's the part that messes you up, you know?
I'm gonna buy a URL. I'm gonna do some research.
Youremergencykeynotespeaker.com.What do you think?
No, have to go eat. It's been six years.
(29:23):
I've been trying to just exit and give you my money.
Just let me buy the URL. Speaking of URLs, where do you
want people to go? orangeleafconsulting.com,
orangeleafacademy.com, and drcindy.com.
Those are the easiest places to find us.
There's clicks to each of them on each of the sites.
So if you hit one, you'll find the others, depending on what
(29:44):
you're looking for. If you're looking for coaching,
hit Orange Leaf Consulting. If you're looking for some
online training, hit Orange LeafAcademy.
And if you're looking for a keynote speaker, not the
emergency one, but one you'll book, I guess.
Hey, I'll be a non-emergency one, but like this needs to be
on the West Coast or mountain oryeah, I'll go to Texas.
I got to go back and see family.I'll go to Baton Rouge.
(30:06):
So I'll go that far. Yeah.
So why orange leaf? You know, it was something when
I was trying to name my organization, I wanted it to
represent change, but not scary change.
And, you know, as I polled people and I talked to folks,
everybody seemed to love fall. It was this wonderful time of
(30:30):
year. And I said, well, that's major
change. A tree literally loses all its
leaves and starts over. I, Orange Leaf was born.
I wanted it to represent a positive change.
Well, easy to say. mean, I've kind of regretted like the sales
whisperer. I'm using fixer West now, the
(30:51):
business fixer and cause people can spell fixer West.
They have West Schaeffer. They can't spell Schaeffer.
It's the longest way you can spell it. can't, they miss nine
letters, right? They misspell.
I'm like, okay, we must hinder the conversation going on in the
mind of prospect. They're not paying attention.
They can't spell. So fixer West.
Try spelling the sales whispererER, ER, ER, two ERs.
(31:17):
Like I gotta go. So are you a diehard Florida
State fan or did you just go there for your PhD?
No, I'm a diehard. I'm back from the Bobby Bowden
era when, yeah, dyed in the wool, guarded in gold all the
way. You're legit.
(31:39):
Alright, I like the coach. you know, I feel bad with that
playoff a couple years ago but it was the right decision but
man, I think he missed. I think I think he mishandled it
but are y'all coming back? Are you going make a comeback in
football? You know what?
That is our hope. We have we've had some not great
(32:00):
times as of late and it's reallyhard to watch having gone
through two national championships and all that
stuff. It's like ouch that really
hurts, but let's hope so. Cause I am a college football
fan, not not as much pro. I do watch it with my husband,
but yeah. Kind of southern thing, I think,
because we're originally from the South. what I tell people.
(32:20):
They're like, you know, it's different in the south.
It's like in two days in the summer, you're you're laying on
dew, right? So, you're stretching in the
morning and it's wet and then there's fire ants and there's
mosquitoes and there's horse flies, you know.
(32:44):
Yeah. then there's alligators and there's there's water
moccasins and you know, it's like everything wants to kill
you in the South. And it's like out here in
California, like, Hey bro, like practice is over.
Want to like go surf in the 65 degree weather.
You, you, like we're angry when it comes time to finally play.
(33:05):
We want to hurt somebody. Like I got all this red ant
venom wasps, yellow jackets. I hit somebody really hard.
And people just don't understandit.
I've never heard it explained that way, but that's completely
true. It's true.
If I'm lying, I'm dying. So they just, they don't get it.
(33:27):
early morning in the dew. I remember, I experienced
everything you're talking about,but I was on dance team.
So we were doing all the same things, but morning and
afternoon and the blazing heat over sun and woo. yeah, cause
it's so huge. So you're sweating regardless,
know, seven 30 in the morning, you're sweating.
(33:48):
I don't know just something about that first time you got to
sit down and do those leg stretches.
You're like, but I digress. Dr. Cindy McGovern all the way
from San Francisco via Florida state, you know, thanks for
coming on the show. It's been great catching up.
It's so good to see you again, Wes, and I'm so glad to be here
(34:11):
and I appreciate the opportunity.
Hey, you were worth the wait. You know, both five and a half
years and four months. All right.
Have a good day. Bye.
Dr. Cindy McGovern after five and a half years from episode
402. Welcome back to the sales
podcast. How the heck are you?
I'm doing great. It's good to see you again, Wes.
Thanks for having me back. I can't believe how much you've
put me off. Good thing I'm the sales
whisperer and I how did you and I harassed you and I begged and
(00:23):
I pleaded and I cajoled and whatelse?
I manipulated, I cried. I'm not, ever seen a grown man
cry? It ain't pretty.
It got you on the show, huh? Why you got it?
Why you make me work so hard? You know, guess I just like the
chase. You know, it's like one of those
things. I'm used to chasing people as a
salesperson, so, you know. you go.
(00:44):
You've been traveling, you've been speaking, right?
All of the above, a lot in the last, since we've seen each
other, a lot of international stuff, had a new book come out,
launched an academy, doing the thing, know, trying to get out
there and help these salespeoplegrow their business, shorten
their sales cycle, and have a little more fun in the process.
So got a couple of books there behind you.
(01:05):
So we first talked about every job as a sales job, but the one
to the right is kind of cut off.Sell yourself?
Sell yourself. that is the one that came out about a year and a
half ago. And this one is on selling you.
So really personal branding. And, you know, before you sell
anything, your product or service, you've got to sell
(01:26):
yourself. You got to build trust.
So that's really the focus of that one is helping people to
understand that you're selling 24 seven online when you're
asleep, your profiles, your social media.
So better make sure it's on purpose.
And that message is out there that you want the world to know.
Yeah, for sure. And you got another, your third
coming out this year. It is, it is coming out late
(01:48):
this fall and this one's on sortof the internal sales
conversation. Selling ourselves on the idea
that we need to do something, that we can do something,
overcoming some of those nasty imposter pieces, but it's
actually deeper than that. It goes into a lot of research
on psychology and helping you togive yourself permission to kind
of step into the spotlight of your own life.
(02:11):
It's hard, huh? I've suffered from that.
I probably suffer from that the most. mean, of all the, all the
ailments I could have, it's like, who am I?
Right? Who am I to put myself out
there? It's like, but you got to do it.
Absolutely, absolutely. so we were talking just before we hit
record. Um, I mean, we, we caught up
(02:32):
with each other, you know, before the world stopped, like
you said, um, before we get into, well, a lot has changed.
What has stayed the same? What should people continue
doing? Like that never went away after
with COVID. this is one of my favorite questions because
people think, you know, post COVID post pandemic that
(02:53):
everything is different. And yes, there are things that
are different. We're doing a lot more video
calls. We're doing a lot more remote.
There's a hybrid world, right? But the things that don't change
are people have to trust you to buy from you.
You have to prospect more than you just sit on your butt and
you got to ask. So if we look at sort of the
most fundamental pieces of sales, those have not changed
(03:17):
until we are bots selling to bots.
They're people before their prospects.
Let's get out there. Let's invite them to do business
with us. Let's build that trust and then
create advocates that are out there telling your story for you
as well. How do I prospect if they're all
hiding behind cell phones and caller ID and work from home
(03:37):
environment? can't even direct mail them
because they're not the office anymore.
That's exactly right. So that's where that online
presence and that's actually partially why I wrote the book,
Yourself is because we do have to sell ourselves differently.
You can't just walk into an office of a prospect.
And like you said, you can't even direct mail a lot of them
because their mailing address goes to some massive mail room
(03:59):
that they never receive it. So you've got to really position
yourself as that subject matter expert.
You've got to become the flower,not the bee.
You've got to be the guy or gal that they come to for that.
And so that's where you're branding yourself.
And then it is the outreach though.
That outreach cannot stop. You cannot just have this lovely
(04:19):
website or lovely whatever, social media presence.
It's gotta be you continuing to reach out and you've got to get
a little creative in that. And that's where video reach out
has come in. People are using video platforms
now more than ever. And funny enough, I've got a
handwritten note somebody sent me the other day.
I'm like, I got one of those in a long time.
(04:39):
So. How to cool.
How'd they find your address? I imagine you work from home,
right? the office.
No, no, no, I've got an office. They sent it to the office.
Yeah. Interesting.
Yeah, I mean, what's old is new,right?
People are handwritten note. know, I've got in my my five
(05:01):
weeks to peak program, right? For the salespeople.
Mael Mael every day write a note.
What? You know, it's like it's it's
grueling. It's.
It's longer term, but it builds up, you know, and like anything
I tell people, you know, January1st, did you go to the gym from
(05:25):
like midnight to midnight and just, and you're good for the
year, you know, or like, is thatwhen you set the day you start
your 30th and 90 minute routine and then build on that for the
year, but it gets boring and we're under pressure.
Cindy, what the hell you're going to close that deal.
Don't make me put you on a, on aPIP.
The next thing I know. I'm cold emailing, I'm spamming,
(05:48):
I'm begging. how do we keep the wolves at bay when, I mean, it
feels like sales cycles have lengthened now.
Is that accurate or am I just not as good at shifting my
prospecting? And so once I make the pivot to
the new order, new world, then my sales cycles will shorten
(06:09):
again. Well, you know what's funny
though? I do think that they have
lengthened and I see that with all of our clients that are on
leaf consulting. Like literally see that
everywhere. And I think it's because not
only are we competing for their business, but we're also
competing for their attention. And we live in an incredibly
distracted society, which is different than even five years
(06:30):
ago, which is different than 10 years prior and 10 years prior
to that. So when you think about it, and
this is one of my favorite things to tell salespeople, I
say, I want you to not take thispersonal when the prospect
ignores you the first 12 times you reach out to them.
And the way that I want you to do this experiment, go to the
grocery store. Actually, don't get your
groceries delivered. Go to the grocery store and
(06:50):
stand in line. And I want you to see what
everybody does in line. No one is talking to anybody.
Nobody's even looking around. Everyone is completely
distracted. So I tell all the sales folks
that I coach, I'm like, that's what you're competing against.
You're competing against the lure of social media, the lure
of that article, the lure of that text message.
(07:13):
And that's at the grocery store.That's when there's nothing else
to do. Then you put them in their
office environment when they actually have emails to answer,
meetings to go to, clients to deal with, colleagues to deal
with. That's what you're trying to tap
them on the shoulder and get their attention from.
So don't take it personal. You've got to really have that
(07:33):
routine, that sales cardio, built into your day.
Yeah, you've got to build it. I've told this story for years
and, um, I was, my wife was having surgery 12 years ago and
I was just sitting in the, in the lobby, waiting, know, for
(07:57):
hours, right. And, a call came in and, I'm
like, well, might as well answerit, you know, it will distract
me. And it was like a no caller ID
kind of thing. And it was from this kind of
self-defense place, a shooting place that I liked.
And I bought some of their stuffand they were having this big
promo and it was literally the last day.
(08:17):
But because we've been kind of caught up with surgery prep and
whatever, I just wasn't paying attention.
You know, so these are people I wanted to hear from.
But I was busy, you know, life gets in the way. so, and I
bought, I write that boom, pressone, whatever.
And I bought their stuff. Yesterday, now my mother-in-law
(08:39):
is going through some stuff, some health issues and we are
out of sorts. My wife's over there and nonstop
and so again, I'm over there last night and we're just
hanging out and just all trying to be together.
I'm scrolling my phone, catchingup on emails.
There's an email from a guy I wanted to hear from and I missed
(09:03):
like two previous emails. I'm like, hey man. perfect
examples. missed you. Yes, let's do this.
You know, thanks for being persistent. it's persistence
wins, but I mean, how much of that should be automated?
You know, how much of it should be personalized?
You know, that's a good question.
(09:24):
And I always sort of look at that as the definition between
sales and marketing, right? Like marketing gets you the at
bat. Sales is where you build a
relationship, in my opinion. But I think one of the things is
we are so conditioned to automatic outreach right now.
We are so conditioned to the botoutreach that I think that's
why, even when it's somebody we want to hear from, we dismiss
(09:45):
it. Because if there's not something
that absolutely grabs your attention in that subject line,
if there's not something that absolutely stops you dead in
your tracks, so you think about watching that video or reading
that email or looking at that text, you scroll right past it.
So in my opinion, I don't think anything is gonna replace the
personal outreach, but you can automate some of that.
(10:06):
Like if you do a bunch of videos, right?
So let's say that I think I'm gonna have to reach out to Wes
six times. I'm gonna personalize six videos
and schedule them maybe to go out to you.
You can still use technology, but it's still gonna be me with
Wes's name on my phone, me pointing at that going, hey Wes,
so you know it's personal. You know that it's not some
(10:27):
generic something I sent out to everybody.
Yeah, and uh, it's been years. I haven't gotten one of these in
a while, but it was years ago. You know, they would, they would
mail a video with a GIF and likethey're holding up like a
whiteboard and then have your name, you know, like that was,
that was cutting edge 10, 12 years ago.
Right. But, but I still get messages in
(10:50):
the last couple of weeks. Like I got a message.
I think it was through LinkedIn.It was a video.
I think it was through LinkedIn and they try.
They're implying that it was personal, but they didn't say my
name. And so I tell people, and I tell
people all the time, say their name.
We are distrusting. We are jaded.
You know, and so, but what do salespeople do?
(11:12):
Like they're an employee. They may not have the
permissions to create a drip sequence.
So it's just on their, on them. Just pound it out, send off that
personal email. You know, that's where they need
to sell their employer. Honestly, that's where you go to
the employer and you have the conversation of, this is
(11:35):
something that can help us increase our clothes ratio,
shorten our sales cycle. Advocate for the things that you
need. Advocate for the tools.
I mean, I think back to when, and this is how long ago it was,
Wes, so go down memory lane withme, but can you imagine as an
author now, you and I both writebooks, can you imagine having to
write a book on a typewriter? No.
(11:57):
Like that would have, I probablywould have never finished.
Same, same, but can you imagine literally, you make one mistake,
you've got to go back to the, you know, cause I, I can't even
imagine we would have advocated like, Hey, I'm going to need a
computer. I'm going to need a select a
type right back in the day. So, but, truly thinking about
(12:18):
that is an opportunity for you to sell your employer on the
resources you need. If you can't get them, you can't
get the permissions, they don't want to do it because of
firewall settings or something like that, that does not negate
you from doing those things on social media.
There is no firewall on some of those platforms where you can
still send a video, you can do those things.
So you got to get creative in that regard.
(12:40):
Yeah, in the 12 weeks to peak, have them write every day. know,
and it's like, clarifies your thinking, you know, and then, I
can't write for my company. You can make an article on
LinkedIn. Yeah.
You can make a Twitter thread. You know, worst case, write your
(13:03):
own stuff and just save it. And it's FAQs. deeper insight
that you can copy and paste and send over.
You know, because I always tell people it's like we prove our
competency by the questions thatwe ask.
You know, and if we already havethe answer, we know enough to
ask a deep question and we already have answered that
(13:25):
question, and can send that overas a resource, they're like, who
is this magician? You know, but people don't want
to write. Most people, it takes
discipline. Yeah, yeah. it's like, well then
get out of sales. but I love people.
If you love people, go to HR, right?
(13:47):
Sales, you gotta wear a lot of hats.
I was coaching a salesperson yesterday and we were talking
about emails that he had sent toa prospective client and we were
tweaking the language and he said, I don't want semantics
help. And I said, then you don't want
sales help because you're literally selling yourself in
every single one of these emails.
And it's semantics. It's the word choice that you're
(14:08):
using. If you sound generic, it comes
across as generic. You got to differentiate
yourself in every touch point you send out there.
So I love that you make them right. think that's a great
idea. Yeah.
So what is organizational communication?
That's your PhD, right? What does that mean?
How did you find that? well it so it's morphed but when
(14:32):
I did my PhD 25 years ago, whichis hard to say I Yes, clearly
clearly. Yes seven.
Let's go with that. Let's stay with that Wes.
I appreciate that. Yeah we we had talked about this
my major professor and I talked about this and there wasn't
really a track for it yet So we called it organizational
(14:54):
communication. Now it would be probably org
development or something like that.
But it's a third psychology, a third communication, and a third
business. So I diagnose people who work
within an organizational structure to help them be more
effective through their communication.
And my dissertation was on nonverbal communication and how
that creates rule systems. I know.
(15:14):
Wacky. What am I thinking right now?
So what was your goal? Like did you wanna work at like
a big fortune 500 company and like help them streamline
things? Did you wanna go out on your
own? Like what was your path, your
vision back then? My vision back then was I
(15:35):
thought I was going to teach. I wanted to be a college
professor. I wanted to continue the
research. I wanted to help that next
generation. And fast forward, I did that for
about five years and realized I preferred adults to the 18 to 24
year old crowd. And I realized that because I
started consulting in the summers, which a lot of
professors do. And I was like, wait a second,
(15:56):
this is fun. And so I went into consulting
full time. Then I was put in a sales role
and here I am. Wow, I started my company 17
years ago. That's hard to believe.
Nice. What do mean you were put into a
sales role? Well, funny enough, since it's
the sales podcast. Caught that?
Caught that? So note to the listeners, words
(16:19):
mean things. But anyway.
See, back to semantics. So I never wanted to be in
sales, and now I'm known as the first lady of sales, which is
always funny for people. But I thought sales was pushy,
icky, manipulative, cheesy, all the things.
Like I had this avatar in my head of like, I call him Tommy
Two Thumbs, but it's like the used car sales, really pushy,
(16:40):
you know, hey, I'm gonna tell you anything I need to.
Yeah, there you go, there you go.
I have this on my desk when I give talks in person, but you
know, but we're always remote. like, what do we think of
salespeople? You know, you'll get the, the,
the do-gooders optimistic cheerful helpful.
I'm like, shut up. That is not what, when I say use
(17:01):
car salesman, pushy. There you go. know, always comes
out. It's true.
And that was my perception of sales.
So I was at a company and I got put into a sales role and honest
to goodness, I thought I was gonna get fired.
So I'm like, I can't sell. I'm not pushy.
I'm nice. I'm kind to people like. got,
mean, you, got this PhD. I'm not, I would never think,
(17:22):
let me get this PhD and make them hammer out the cold calls.
Right? Exactly.
But so my boss saw something in me to be able to help people.
And that's really what sales is.And you know that that's what we
do. It's helping others.
And I'll walk away if I'm not a fit.
You don't have to be pushy in sales.
If you have to be pushing in sales, you didn't do your
(17:44):
research, in my opinion. There shouldn't be a push.
It should be a pull. It should be, hey, you want to
come over here? Come on.
Here's the stuff I got. I'm going ask you enough
questions and make you curious. And then you're going to want
this. And if you don't want it, That's
okay, I'm not gonna run out of prospects.
There's seven billion people on the planet.
I'll find somebody else. But I got put in that sales
role. And literally about six months
in is when I realized, I'm like,wait a second, I know how to do
(18:04):
this. I just didn't call it sales.
I called it convincing, persuading.
And so that was actually what brought me to write my first
book. Because I do have this PhD and I
was never taught sales skills. And it's kind of crazy to think
about. I have all these degrees in
communication, but I wasn't taught sales.
We don't teach that. as a life skill, and it is.
(18:27):
It's totally everything is sales.
People say sales is the second oldest profession.
I go, it's the first profession.Like it or not, they had to
haggle on terms and payment. So the sale was made first.
You can't talk about that. But whatever.
I digress. But every job really is a sales
(18:49):
job because you have to get interviewed.
That's nothing but a sales conversation, but people don't
think of it like that. Yeah, to their own demise,
right? Because like, you the Bible
says, you know, when two or moregathered in my name, like there
I am, right? But it's like when two or more
people meet, a sale is made, right?
You know, hey, Cindy, where, where do you want to go to
lunch? I don't care.
(19:10):
Okay. How about Mexican food?
No, I Mexican food yesterday. How about Italian?
Yeah. I mean, you're making a sale.
That's not really, that's not really selling.
Like, what is it? What is it?
You know, so sales. And I tell people all the time,
I get a minimum. You need to know what's being
done against you because it's everywhere.
(19:32):
Go buy a domain name at GoDaddy and see the 497 steps you have
to say yes or no to before you take just take my money.
It's like, get gas. Do you have a Vons card?
I'm late. Put some gas in my car, you
(19:52):
gotta check in, you gotta give me your cell phone number, it's
all a sale. And then while you're there,
there's a video and a speaker, hey, you should get some
Gatorade, you know? It's happening to us everywhere.
So at a minimum, be aware of it,right?
Be aware and know when you're being sold to and when you're
being invited to buy, and there's a big difference.
Right. So in the last, so took us a
(20:15):
couple of months to catch up. You've been, were you out of the
country? Okay.
Just speaking like a big conference or what?
speaking and then I did a littletravel at the tail end.
I was gone the whole month of November at the end of last year
and unfortunately, it kind of coincided with holiday stuff so
then it was just catch up end ofyear things.
(20:36):
But I'm so glad we were able to finally reconnect.
This is so fun and just hearing what's going on in your world.
Five and a half years. So, what's the goal moving
forward? You got a new book coming out.
Are you doubling down more the same?
Are you branching out? Are trying new things?
(20:59):
Are you doing cold email? Are you back to direct mail?
Do webinars work? Like what's working today?
So a couple of different things.So I started an online academy a
few years ago, Orange Leaf Academy.
And it's for salespeople and what I would call
non-salespeople, but we know everybody's a salesperson.
But the folks that really wouldn't consider themselves in
(21:20):
sales, there's classes for them too to help them sell themselves
better. There's personal branding.
For salespeople, we've got classes to shorten the sales
cycle. All of the above, we've got some
that are industry specific as well.
And so that's been a big piece. So we're doing a lot more email
marketing to get the word out aswe launch those courses.
And we're doing some click funnels and things like that,
which has been really fun to learn because that's not my
(21:43):
world. And I've got an amazing team at
Orange Leaf that magically makesall those things happen.
Shout out to y'all. And a lot of it is speaking
gigs, though. So that's a lot of the travel.
I've got some international travel coming up next month as
well. It's still speaking, getting out
there, trying to get in front ofaudiences and help people
realize that they need sales. They're doing it all day.
(22:05):
It's coming at them all day, like you said, and help them do
it more effectively, see it so that they can respond to it
better. But really helping those
salespeople to realize everybodyin your organization is in
sales. So if you're a sales rep, you
got an account manager over here, you got operations trying
to deliver, there's an inside sales conversation to make sure
those people are on the same page. getting everybody rowing
(22:27):
in the same direction. So that's a lot of the stuff
I've been doing is not just to the sales rep audience, but to
the service side of the house aswell.
Yeah. So when you talk about learning
that stuff, like a ClickFunnels,how much are you really trying
to learn it? Um, cause I always tell folks
when they're, cause that's been my space, right?
Since like 2008, I got into FusionSolve and HubSpot,
(22:51):
Entroport, all these tools. And I tell most owners, it's
like, it's not in your best interest to master this stuff,
but you do need to be conversantor you'll get the wool pulled
over your eyes, right? You got to know enough.
To ask the questions, you got toknow enough, like, hmm, it's not
passing the sniff test, you know?
So like how hands-on are you trying to be?
(23:12):
Well, so that's the team. So that's my folks.
I have an incredible team here at Orange Leaf that they are the
specialists. I know my swim lane, Wes.
I'm the dancing chicken. I gotta get out there and bring
in the business. And then they do the hard stuff.
So they're incredible. Yeah, good.
(23:32):
And have you kind of gotten to alevel and you're speaking?
mean, do the invitations come toyou or you still having to do
outreach? You know, I have been very
fortunate for the last few yearsthat I do get a lot of, you
know, a fair amount of requests,I'd say more than not, but I
still do a whole lot of outreach.
I am not afraid to ask. I am always looking for another
(23:53):
audience. I mean, just like you, we want
to go help people. So the more audiences and more
people I can get in front of, the more I can evangelize the
message and get it out there. So I am always looking.
We do a fair amount of my publicist for my books also does
a fair amount of outreach on my behalf to get speaking gigs too.
So if you give 10 talks or maybelooking back on your last 10,
(24:17):
are they pretty much identical or how much variance is there?
Or do you have like three or four and it just depends on what
they want you to cover. Like you may give three, three
and four, you know, out of the last 10.
I never gave the same speech twice.
So mine are always customized for the audience. do a D.
(24:37):
This is the PhD nerd in me. I can't help it.
But this is where I do a deep dive.
I spoke for a container shippingcontainer company and I
interviewed some of their managers and their sales people
just like to get the lingo so I could get some of that
information. I mean, we're in sales, right?
So I've got to sell them this idea that I understand their
world and establish my credibility with them so they
(24:57):
want to hear what I've got to talk about.
I wanted to make sure I knew howthings worked so that I could
speak to that language and help them see how sales was going to
help them as a larger organization, not just for you
know, umpteen salespeople they had.
So if everyone is unique, mean, is there still a core?
you have like a, I mean, you have your principles, right?
(25:20):
The main, the big breakthroughs,like you're, like I've got a
selling equals dating pipeline that I always cover, right?
Stages and tie it to dating. Oh, okay, I get it, you know?
So even though you're using their vernacular, are you
overlaying it like on a core set?
Yeah. Yeah, it's usually my five step
(25:42):
sales process to plan, look for the opportunities, establish the
trust and listen, ask for the sale and then follow up.
So there's usually something around that process, but it also
depends on the group. I spoke to a keynote group in
Idaho and it was really more about them getting fans speaking
for them. that you could still say there's the five steps, but
(26:03):
it was slightly different in terms of that approach. it's
really kind of my favorite fun thing is to create those
speeches for those audiences, because I get to learn about
them. And then it really does kind of
hit home a little bit more, I find, so that they come up and
they're like, my gosh, I felt like you were talking to me
because you knew this. And you know that's like the
best feeling in the world. yeah,yeah and I get lined up.
(26:27):
I know that's cool. best thing. That's the best feeling.
I've got one on Thursday and I'mlike, yes.
Yeah, it's uh, yeah, that's cool.
And uh, you get there early and I go mingle like the night
before or do you like to be kindof hidden and come out like pow
and make a splash? No, if I can, I love to get
(26:48):
there early. Unfortunately, in recent years,
my schedule has not always permitted that.
In fact, last year, I landed 90 minutes before I had to be on
stage because of flight delays. So that was a little hairy.
So I'm coming in hot on two wheels a few times here.
So Thursday, I'll have a little bit of time in the morning to
(27:09):
bounce around and say hello to everybody, introduce myself.
reminds me I've I've been meaning to do this and I gotta
just do it. I gotta find an assistant, but
I, I live with no traffic 90 minutes from LA, but there's
never no traffic. So I'm like 12 days from LA, but
you know, somewhere between 90 minutes and 12 days I can get to
LA. Uh, I'm 60 minutes from San
(27:31):
Diego, an hour from Disneyland, three and a half from Vegas,
four and a half from Phoenix. I want to be. the emergency
backup. Now, obviously, if you're 90
minutes, that's not enough time,but like somebody gets sick,
right? your flight gets weather
delayed. Like, I'm not making it.
(27:53):
You you're supposed to land a day at noon to speak at 6 p.m.
Like, I want to be the alternate.
Nice. I like that.
And on the West Coast, I mean, I'm in San Francisco, so on the
West Coast, if there's a West Coast gig, I got you.
I like this. but it's like I candrive.
I don't even have to wait on an airline.
I can drive to all those places.What are you going to talk
about? Look, don't be picky because
(28:13):
that high dollar person, they ain't coming.
Right. So I'm going to be less cost,
but it'll be pretty good. Here we go.
If I've got SoCal ones, I'll flip them to you.
You got NorCal ones, you flip them to me.
See, ladies and gentlemen. know people think I'm crazy.
I got seven kids and it's like, I didn't like being gone, you
know, and um, and I'm a big guy.don't like you're going to give
(28:38):
me business or first. No.
Okay. Then I don't, I don't want to
go. I got flew to Jacksonville and
uh, golly North Carolina and I'mjust, I don't know.
Three, the three hour time chain, two hours.
I'm okay. Three hours.
It wrecks me. I'm like, I'm tired of jet lag.
I don't know. Yeah, tomorrow morning I'm up at
430 to get a flight to go to theEast Coast.
(29:00):
So yeah, that's the tough one. And then when you're back the
next day, that's the part that messes you up, you know?
I'm gonna buy a URL. I'm gonna do some research.
Youremergencykeynotespeaker.com.What do you think?
No, have to go eat. It's been six years.
(29:23):
I've been trying to just exit and give you my money.
Just let me buy the URL. Speaking of URLs, where do you
want people to go? orangeleafconsulting.com,
orangeleafacademy.com, and drcindy.com.
Those are the easiest places to find us.
There's clicks to each of them on each of the sites.
So if you hit one, you'll find the others, depending on what
(29:44):
you're looking for. If you're looking for coaching,
hit Orange Leaf Consulting. If you're looking for some
online training, hit Orange LeafAcademy.
And if you're looking for a keynote speaker, not the
emergency one, but one you'll book, I guess.
Hey, I'll be a non-emergency one, but like this needs to be
on the West Coast or mountain oryeah, I'll go to Texas.
I got to go back and see family.I'll go to Baton Rouge.
(30:06):
So I'll go that far. Yeah.
So why orange leaf? You know, it was something when
I was trying to name my organization, I wanted it to
represent change, but not scary change.
And, you know, as I polled people and I talked to folks,
everybody seemed to love fall. It was this wonderful time of
(30:30):
year. And I said, well, that's major
change. A tree literally loses all its
leaves and starts over. I, Orange Leaf was born.
I wanted it to represent a positive change.
Well, easy to say. mean, I've kind of regretted like the sales
whisperer. I'm using fixer West now, the
(30:51):
business fixer and cause people can spell fixer West.
They have West Schaeffer. They can't spell Schaeffer.
It's the longest way you can spell it. can't, they miss nine
letters, right? They misspell.
I'm like, okay, we must hinder the conversation going on in the
mind of prospect. They're not paying attention.
They can't spell. So fixer West.
Try spelling the sales whispererER, ER, ER, two ERs.
(31:17):
Like I gotta go. So are you a diehard Florida
State fan or did you just go there for your PhD?
No, I'm a diehard. I'm back from the Bobby Bowden
era when, yeah, dyed in the wool, guarded in gold all the
way. You're legit.
(31:39):
Alright, I like the coach. you know, I feel bad with that
playoff a couple years ago but it was the right decision but
man, I think he missed. I think I think he mishandled it
but are y'all coming back? Are you going make a comeback in
football? You know what?
That is our hope. We have we've had some not great
(32:00):
times as of late and it's reallyhard to watch having gone
through two national championships and all that
stuff. It's like ouch that really
hurts, but let's hope so. Cause I am a college football
fan, not not as much pro. I do watch it with my husband,
but yeah. Kind of southern thing, I think,
because we're originally from the South. what I tell people.
(32:20):
They're like, you know, it's different in the south.
It's like in two days in the summer, you're you're laying on
dew, right? So, you're stretching in the
morning and it's wet and then there's fire ants and there's
mosquitoes and there's horse flies, you know.
(32:44):
Yeah. then there's alligators and there's there's water
moccasins and you know, it's like everything wants to kill
you in the South. And it's like out here in
California, like, Hey bro, like practice is over.
Want to like go surf in the 65 degree weather.
You, you, like we're angry when it comes time to finally play.
(33:05):
We want to hurt somebody. Like I got all this red ant
venom wasps, yellow jackets. I hit somebody really hard.
And people just don't understandit.
I've never heard it explained that way, but that's completely
true. It's true.
If I'm lying, I'm dying. So they just, they don't get it.
(33:27):
early morning in the dew. I remember, I experienced
everything you're talking about,but I was on dance team.
So we were doing all the same things, but morning and
afternoon and the blazing heat over sun and woo. yeah, cause
it's so huge. So you're sweating regardless,
know, seven 30 in the morning, you're sweating.
(33:48):
I don't know just something about that first time you got to
sit down and do those leg stretches.
You're like, but I digress. Dr. Cindy McGovern all the way
from San Francisco via Florida state, you know, thanks for
coming on the show. It's been great catching up.
It's so good to see you again, Wes, and I'm so glad to be here
(34:11):
and I appreciate the opportunity.
Hey, you were worth the wait. You know, both five and a half
years and four months. All right.
Have a good day. Bye.
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