June 11, 2025 • 43 mins
Keeping Kids Safe Online: Insights from an NSA Cybersecurity Expert
In this episode of The Secure Family Podcast, host Andytalks with Ben Gillenwater, an ex-NSA cybersecurity expert and The Family IT Guy on TikTok. They discuss the importance of cybersecurity for kids, especially during the summer when screen time often increases.
Ben shares his career journey, insights on setting appropriate screen time boundaries, the dangers of addictive algorithms and online chats, and the significance of promoting healthy skepticism in children. They also dive into warning signs of online addiction and how to implement effective parental controls. Towards the end, Ben emphasizes the importance of values in parenting and how to translate them into actionable strategies.
For more from Ben Gillenwater: https://www.familyitguy.com
Watch The Interview: https://youtu.be/oObXzjiFsHU
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Level Up your parenting with my ebook about protecting your kids while gaming online.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Andy (00:11):
This is The Secure Family Podcast.
Welcome friend.
I'm Andy Murphy, the host andthe founder of The Secure Dad.
This show is all about empowering parentsto protect themselves and their family.
I believe that security is thefoundation of happiness, and I want
your family to be safe and happy.
The information that I shareon this podcast is for general
(00:32):
information purposes only.
My goal is to empower you tomake safer decisions for yourself
and for your family because oursafety is our own responsibility.
Today, I get to talk with an ex NSAcybersecurity expert about keeping
your kids safe online this summer.
All of that and more coming upon The Secure Family Podcast.
(00:58):
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My guest on the showtoday is Ben Gillenwater.
Ben is a parent as well as an ex NSAcybersecurity expert, former chief
technologist for a $10 billion IT companywith more than 30 years of experience.
(02:06):
But you know him as TheFamily IT guy on TikTok.
Here's my conversationwith Ben Gillenwater.
So thank you Ben, for joining me today.
Introduce yourself to everybody.
Ben (02:26):
Hello, I'm Ben.
I'm the family IT guy, um, I'mhere to help parents keep their
kids safe online, kind of like you.
Andy (02:35):
Yeah, I know.
It is really nice to be able tosit down and talk to somebody
who, who really understandsand gets like, what's going on.
Um, what kind of motivatedyou to start in the IT field?
Because you've had a prettyinteresting career path.
Ben (02:48):
I have been very fortunate to have a very interesting career.
Um, the thing that got mestarted was, uh, was my dad.
he fostered my, my hobbies as a kid.
So when I was 10, he brought homea Tandy, uh, computer with a,
say it was an 80, 86 processor.
(03:10):
And the cool thing is that heactually let me play with it, right?
Andy (03:13):
Mm-hmm.
Ben (03:13):
$2,000.
Andy (03:14):
Oh yeah.
Yeah, that's an adult toy.
You don't touch that as a kid.
Ben (03:17):
it's an adult toy and we weren't a family with like a, you know, a bunch
of extra cash to be like, who cares?
He let me, he let me play with it.
He let me modify dos, he let me just goin there and just mess around with stuff.
And then on the, on the weekends forfun, I wanted to go to the computer store
and like study all the motherboards andall the hard drives and all the things.
And then he would actuallydrive me to the computer store.
(03:40):
Long story short, the computer store.
me coming in all the time and I,when I was 14, they're like, Hey,
if you're old enough to come workhere, you should come work here.
And so I did.
I was by far the worst salespersonto ever enter a computer store.
I just gave everybody technicaladvice and I tried to help them
save as much money as possible.
(04:00):
So, so I ended up a, a customer of thecomputer store hired me to work with
him in his IT consulting business.
And then I got exposed to like,managing computers for companies.
Long story short ended up, um,running like really large data
centers for a defense contractor.
Like the whole, the kind thatyou see in the movies with like
(04:22):
robotic arms and raised floors androws and rows and rows of servers.
You know, I had to wear a bigjacket every time I went in
there 'cause it was super cold.
And, um.
Then the, so I worked for a comp, Iworked for a defense contractor that did,
uh, $10 billion a year in IT business.
(04:43):
So they were an ITprovider to the government.
And I ended up beingthe chief technologist.
Long story short of that,that division of the company.
And so I was the sort ofsenior technical strategist for
this $10 billion IT company.
Um, then I went on to work forBlackberry and eventually, you
(05:05):
know, Blackberry tanked and thenI, I became an entrepreneur.
My brother and I started abunch of companies, and so I've.
I've been in the game like 30 years,um, and I've, gotten to, you know, be
associated and involved with the NSA.
I've gotten to, you know, get tours ofsubmarines and aircraft carriers and
missiles and all kinds of, you know,tanks and aircraft and all this stuff.
(05:29):
and so I like to say that I spentmuch of my career doing national
security and now I do family security.
So now I'm totally focused on,and I spend most of my time on.
Helping parents understand whatthey need to know in order to keep
their kids safe on the internet.
Andy (05:47):
And, and that's really appreciated and that's very needed.
Um, so you've, you've hadthis like amazing career.
You've done all of this stuffand then one day it's like, Hey,
I'm just gonna help families.
Like is there, kind of walk me throughwhat that thought process was like and,
and like that fear of getting startedas an entrepreneur again, uh, especially
in social media when that's where awhole lot of parents are right now.
Ben (06:11):
Yeah, well, I, I, um, got into this family security thing by, uh,
just the natural course ofevents by having a kid of my own.
And so, okay, so I have a kid, um.
know all these thingsabout technology, right?
I understand the behind the scenesabout how all the systems work.
(06:33):
I can picture them in my mind.
I know what's happening, notonly with the bits and the bytes,
but also with the business.
'cause I've,
Andy (06:40):
Hmm.
Ben (06:41):
to get exposed to the business that's behind technology.
So I understand the incentive mechanisms,I understand the people structures.
I understand what they're trying toaccomplish as a business and what,
you know, I'm trying to accomplishas a person and as a parent.
Nonetheless, I made a ton of mistakes.
I, I gave my kid a tablet.
Andy (07:02):
Hmm.
Ben (07:02):
my kid an iPad.
Looking back on that, I'mlike, why did I do that?
I just introduced a precedent.
For what?
Right.
At the time, I thought it was forentertainment and for education.
Of like, Hey, like I'm a tech guy.
I should expose my kid to tech sothat he can learn and he can start
to play do what I did when I was,when I was 10, I got to play with
(07:27):
computers, but there was no internet.
Andy (07:30):
Right.
Ben (07:30):
that was in 1990.
And so all of a sudden he's watching superinappropriate stuff on YouTube, right?
And I go, okay.
Oh crap.
You of course.
Okay, YouTube fine.
Strip off YouTube.
Let's put on YouTube kids, 'causeit's, it has the word kids at the
end, so it's gotta be for kids,
Andy (07:49):
Sure.
Of course.
Right, right.
Yeah.
Ben (07:52):
It's now, what I've learned through my experience in the business world is
that you have two things in a business.
You have marketing and you have reality.
And so,
Andy (08:03):
Very true.
Ben (08:03):
so YouTube kids is the marketing.
reality is a product that's so widelyused that the filtering mechanisms.
Cannot be completely accurate.
And so then he is watching inappropriateand like scary, like nightmare stuff.
He, he had
Andy (08:22):
Mm-hmm.
Ben (08:22):
nightmares for years because of what he saw on YouTube.
Kids
Andy (08:26):
Right.
Ben (08:27):
Huggy Wuggy character with like the sharp teeth and
Andy (08:29):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Ben (08:31):
and scare people.
And the crazy part is that myson and some of his friends their
minds, they liked huggy wy yet.
We're having nightmares everysingle night about huggy, wy
Andy (08:45):
Mm-hmm.
Ben (08:46):
on YouTube kids.
Okay.
Sorry kid that I just exposedyou to that, uh, whoops.
You know, uh, my, my bad.
Really?
Okay.
Take away YouTube kids.
Okay, so now he's got this iPad.
We got a stylist so he could drawand there's like some educational
games, whatever, like, but thenthe, the, uh, the, the underlying
(09:09):
mechanisms that I knew were there.
I watched them work on a child's brain.
Andy (09:14):
Hmm.
Ben (09:15):
become addicted and demonstrate addictive behavior patterns just to the
device itself, to the iPad, let alonethe applications that were on the iPad.
I. So it's disrupting the time thathe would wake up early to play on it.
He would go to sleep laterbecause he wanted to play on it.
Andy (09:36):
Mm-hmm.
Ben (09:37):
home from school and instead of wanting to go ride his bike or
play basketball or go chat with hisfriends, he wanted to play on the iPad.
The thing was drawing him in like a drug
Andy (09:48):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Ben (09:51):
And so we had to take away the iPad completely and, and
that was a really good move.
That and, and it's still, thatwas a difficult thing to do
for him and for and for us.
But my job as a parentto establish precedence.
It's my job to recognize,uh, and correct for mistakes.
(10:13):
so I did that.
so now he has an Apple watch.
And that Apple watch, ithas a cell phone in it.
It's the cellular version,
Andy (10:22):
Mm-hmm.
Ben (10:22):
locked down, so there's nothing on the device that's attractive.
The device is a functional tool thatthat fulfills emergency communication
scenarios and, and so it's great.
He's not drawn to it.
He can just use it when heneeds to call us and we can use
it when we need to call him.
And we can filter who he can talk to.
(10:43):
Um, and so that's how it, sothat's how I got into like, so
I am an expert in technology.
I'm certainly not an expert in children,although I'm trying to be, do my best.
Andy (10:55):
Right.
Ben (10:56):
So if I am stumbling through this and finding out the hard way,
what about all the people that arenot experts that haven't spent 30
years studying computer systems?
What are they doing?
And so I start talking to my friendsand started talking to my, my consulting
clients and like turns out thatlike nobody has any idea what to do.
(11:17):
Right, like this is like
Andy (11:18):
Right.
Ben (11:18):
a new thing.
Andy (11:21):
Mm-hmm.
Ben (11:22):
that's just occurred in the world of parenting.
You know, up until 2007, achild looked roughly the same.
Andy (11:30):
Mm-hmm.
Ben (11:30):
then in 2007, the iPhone was introduced, and a few years later, those
iPhones started to trickle down to kids.
As parents would get the new one, they'd
Andy (11:39):
Yep.
Yep.
Ben (11:40):
and then all of a sudden now there's a new category of parenting.
And nobody has any ideawhat to do about it.
So that's, so that's my missionnow is how do I make digital safety
accessible to parents and to kids?
Andy (11:58):
Right, and, and that is a, that is a tall task.
I mean, you have not steppedinto something that is easy.
By any stretch, so, um, I appreciatethat you're, yeah, I appreciate that
you're using all of your skills that youhave and now, you know, trying to be,
you know, an expert parent like you weresaying, you know, but I think, you know,
a lot of people are gonnaempathize with your story here.
(12:21):
You know, 'cause they, like in 2007,our, you know, my, I was outta the
house by oh seven, but like, my parentsdidn't have to worry about this.
Your parents didn't haveto worry about this.
I didn't worry about this as a teenager.
You didn't either.
And you know, I feel like we kindof, we just got our feet under us
about, okay, this is what we can do.
And now this new kid on the blockcalled AI has come on and has just
(12:45):
completely thrown everything upside down.
What's your big concern,uh, with kids and AI today?
Ben (12:57):
It's, uh, well, so the short
Andy (12:59):
I,
Ben (13:00):
is, um, healthy skepticism.
Andy (13:04):
hmm.
Ben (13:04):
So kids are.
You know, trusting by nature, right?
We, we start off as like trustinglittle humans and then we get chopped
up a little bit and we become alittle less trusting as we age.
We start off as like super trusting.
And then there's these systemsnow that communicate in the
(13:24):
ways that we do as humans.
'cause that's what they're designed todo, but they're not built to be honest.
Andy (13:33):
Mm-hmm.
Ben (13:33):
to be truthful.
not even necessarily built to be useful.
They can be useful.
And so you expose a child to a systemthat talks like them and sounds like them
and knows how to communicate with them.
And so the the kid is gonna have isgonna, by default think that like, oh,
(13:56):
whatever comes out of this thing is true.
And then they're studying for their.
A fourth grade history class andthey're, they're going back and
looking at World War II or something,or what, you know, let's say
eighth grade history or whatever.
And the Nazis have black skinI. You know, or like Asian women
(14:20):
and like, these are like real
Andy (14:22):
Right.
Right.
Ben (14:22):
outta Google Gemini like George Washington was black and
the found the founding fathers ofthe US were Native Americans, you
know, and all this kind of stuff.
Which, and, and like by that, byitself, like for adults, like that's
a, that's a fun conversation to belike, oh gosh, that's kind of funny.
You know, we can talk about
Andy (14:40):
Mm-hmm.
Ben (14:40):
laugh it off.
But for kids, I mean, why, why?
That's true by default.
That's true, right?
Like the system saidthat, that's the thing.
And so I'm really concerned with, um, withthe intersection of a child's brain and
truth and, um, like I focus on that as aparent a lot and as a person for myself.
(15:05):
Like I'm, I'm interested in truth,and these are systems that are not
necessarily interested in truth.
And it's very troublesome.
Um, it is the reality.
And so now it's upon us to teach our kidshow to be skeptical and how to take in.
It's actually, whenever I see thesegiant problems, I, I, there's a side
(15:30):
of it that's actually really goodand because the bigger the problem
is and the more sort of simple innature that the problem is, the
easier it is for a child to digest.
Andy (15:42):
Hm.
Ben (15:42):
So the more nuanced, the thing is, perhaps the, uh, young
child, especially younger children,will struggle more with nuance.
But if you present them with thissimple concept of like, Hey, when you're
communicating with a person or with acomputer you don't personally know and
don't have a personal, direct relationshipwith, it's good to be skeptical.
(16:07):
here's what that means andhere's how you can practice.
The beginnings of critical thinking,you know, so, so there's actually like
a really cool opportunity here to runthrough exercises with kids to show
the problems that it can occur in an AIsystem and practice critical thinking.
(16:29):
if you can practice criticalthinking and you use these tools are
troublesome with which to do that,and a kid can a critical thinker.
They can apply that to every otheraspect of life, and that's amazing.
And so, but I think we have to takethe, the hard part is just like the
(16:50):
rest of this whole, like how do youkeep a kid safe on the internet?
Like, oh gosh, there's amillion things to worry about.
AI is another, another one.
So there's complexity there.
But if we, if we boil it downand we just say, here's how to
filter information from strangers.
Or from unknown sources.
(17:12):
There's, I think there'ssome cool opportunities.
Andy (17:15):
Right.
I think we're, we're handing ourkids this really big tool and
some of it is, is accurate andsome of it is not going to be.
But yeah.
Critical thinking is something that.
I, I'll say this kind of as a joke,I, I think more of us in America need
to think critically, and I'm hopingthat these sorts of conversations
will help folks to do that.
(17:35):
But I, I really feel for our kidstoday, we absolutely need to teach
them, Hey, let's, let's verify whatwe're doing first before we do it.
And so that way as they growinto adulthood, hopefully.
They will see things like onwhatever the future like Facebook
is and know okay, that's not true.
(17:55):
Whereas people today areseeing things on Facebook and
automatically, believing, it's true.
So hopefully we can,we can progress there.
Ben (18:04):
I hope so, man.
And I think we can, I really think wecan, if we have the right exposure to
guidance and values, I think we can.
Andy (18:15):
Sure.
And that, that, that's a great point.
And that's, that's been the, thebaseline of parenting for so long, right?
We just gotta keep that goingin this, in this digital age.
So, Ben, let me ask you this.
We are now in summer, andso kids are out of school.
They have more free time on their hands.
Uh, kids today don't like to be bored,so what sort of screen time boundaries
(18:38):
do we need to set up for the summer?
Ben (18:40):
Oh, that's such a good question.
You know, 'cause summertime is sooften like, we're gonna, you know,
watch the, the random like afternoonmovie that we wouldn't watch during
the school year or something, right.
Like on a Wednesday.
Um, it's a great opportunityto practice moderation.
It's a
Andy (18:59):
Hmm.
Ben (18:59):
opportunity to embrace boredom.
Like you mentioned, boredom.
Boredom is a good thing.
Andy (19:04):
It is.
Mm-hmm.
Ben (19:06):
with your mind and it's just you and your mind, that is valuable.
I feel like I. I don't know always howto put it into scientific terms, but
I just have this idea in my head weall operate at certain frequencies,
Andy (19:24):
Mm-hmm.
Ben (19:24):
and I feel like with a lot of stimulation, I envision in my
mind that the frequency increases.
I. So like the baseline forstimulation goes up, And it's just
stimulus, stimulus, stimulus, andthen boredom is the lack of stimulus.
And then if the baseline forstimulus is high and then boredom
is down here at zero, then theability to achieve boredom and to
(19:49):
appreciate and sit in it is reduced.
And so I think.
Looking at things with respectto stimulus levels is important.
if we are going to a movie, play a show,play a game, I like to look at these
things, especially for younger kids.
Like what's the stimulus level?
How often do the scenes change?
(20:10):
How brighter the colors, how loudare, how loud are the sounds?
Andy (20:13):
Sure.
Sure.
Ben (20:14):
You know, a lot of these, these modern shows, um, like I think of this
show, there's a one called Dog Man.
They just had a movie come out and a
Andy (20:22):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Ben (20:23):
are into it.
And my goodness, man, if you look at howfrequently the scenes change, it's like
boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
Like the whole time itactually made me fall asleep.
A 'cause I wasn't interested.
We went to the movietheaters and watched it,
Andy (20:37):
Right.
Ben (20:38):
but also because it was just like too much.
And so for summertime, I. I just,I would encourage parents to look
at like, what kind of stimulus,what's our stimulus baseline?
And you know, sometimes we're gonnabump that up and, and we're gonna
just do, just entertaining for thesake of entertainment in moderation.
But like, try like value thosefrequencies low value, sitting in
(21:05):
boredom value, like wandering aroundand being like, I have nothing to do.
So I wonder what thattree is like over there.
Lemme go climb it.
Lemme go, let me sit at thebottom of it and just like,
put my fingers in the grass.
You know, like that.
Like, now here's the thing, right?
So you can say that to a kid, butas parents, our job is to lead
(21:29):
by example and to set precedence.
Andy (21:31):
Right.
Ben (21:32):
How, how do we embrace boredom and do we do it together?
What do we do when there's a,when there's a lull, do we go for
the stimulus that we are used to?
Because we're all doing thesame thing as adults, right?
Like there's supposedly like 5billion people on social media.
(21:53):
Well, social media is, is anaddictive chemical, right?
It, it, it elicits an addictivechemical in our brains.
It elicits the dopamine drip.
And so, okay, so like most people.
Most adults that.
So like what are we showing ourkids and how do we lead by example?
How do we set the precedentfor them that boredom is good?
That boredom's okay that we can sit inthe car without a screen, that we can
(22:15):
go outside and just, and just look.
So we have to do that with them, right?
So like as the summer approach is now,like summer is here, like my kid is
on summer vacation now, um, you know.
It, it'd be hard to go like a full180 and say, okay, kid, up until this
point, I've been demonstrating to youthat we're gonna go for stimulus all
(22:37):
the time, but, but today is summervacation, so now we're gonna stop.
It's a hard sell,
Andy (22:43):
Right.
Yeah.
Ben (22:44):
you, you have to work your way into it.
And so I, um, as much positivity as Ican put it across with, I, I suggest
and encourage parents to recognizethat like, we have to do it first.
Right.
We have to, we have to model thebehavior that we want them to see.
(23:06):
Um, and so, yeah, so those,those are kind of my, my thoughts
Andy (23:09):
I, I know, and I, I completely agree.
And, and that's hard, you know, becauselike, I feel like our generation
kind of just stumbled into socialmedia and we got addicted not even
realizing that it was a thing.
And here we are having to tryto get ourselves out of it and
keep our kids out of it too.
I hate it when I'm sitting on the couchand all of a sudden I reach for the
phone and I'm like, what am I doing?
(23:31):
What am I trying to accomplish here?
And it was just like, no, Ijust miss seeing the phone.
And I hate that about myself, but Icertainly, I don't want that for my kid.
For sure.
Ben (23:40):
Well, and I wanna say that that that's okay.
That is normal.
That is expected.
If we, if we are to set up our kidsfor success first we must set, we
must set ourselves up for success.
And sometimes we can dothat is in unusual ways.
(24:00):
For example, there are actually studiesto show that when you place a, a phone
in a different room than you are.
that is a very effectiveway to break that.
Like first of all, the physicalability to just have it within
Andy (24:15):
Mm-hmm.
Ben (24:16):
but secondly, it puts enough and enough friction in
place so that it's effective.
And so, so that's like a really greatexample of like something that we can
practice as ourselves, as individuals islike, let's set ourselves up for success
by, for example, if it's the time of daythat we wanna demonstrate these things,
(24:38):
put the phone in the other room, likeif we're in the living room, you know,
put it in the bedroom or vice versa.
And, and the kids will see that, theywill experience that and they will
experience the additional attentionthat they get, um, and the additional
connection and the ability to havelike a whimsical conversation.
Right.
Um, so I think, dude, it's a greatexample and I'm there with you too.
(25:00):
And I, and I just, I. Like I, I, Ijust wanna tell people that, that it's
not a shameful thing, it's normal.
It's by design.
We, like you said, we are fallinginto this trap that we are just
now starting to figure out.
And so it's, it's okay.
It's totally normal, and we just haveto practice getting ourselves out of it.
Andy (25:19):
I really appreciate hearing you say that.
'cause you know, I was sitting here justbeing a whole lot harder on myself, but
what you said make a lot of differenceand yeah, there are times that I will put
the phone in the other room and I'm like,I'm just, I'm not getting up for that.
Let's, we'll, we'll do something else.
That sort of thing.
So that's, that's awesome.
That is awesome.
So let me ask you this, you know, beingthat it's summer, what are some of the
(25:40):
like parental controls and rules that weneed to set up for our kids to make sure
that when they do have permission to beonline, that they're doing so safely?
Ben (25:50):
Oh, it's a wonderful question.
So, okay.
This is a great opportunity totalk about the ways in which we
can sort of simplify these verycomplicated problems of like safety.
So first, let's breakit down into two pieces.
Let's talk about mentalhealth and physical safety.
(26:12):
So if we have a big safety bucket,we've got mental and physical.
And then, so there are twosort of technical, like ways we
can attach technology to that.
So the mental, the mentalside is the addiction side.
If the, if your kid is exposedto something with what you could
call a bottomless feed, right?
(26:33):
Scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll.
It keeps going, going, going go.
It never go, it, it's bottomless, right?
That's an algorithm.
Andy (26:40):
Hmm.
Ben (26:40):
Usually, almost always, it's like a very simple way to identify,
like, is this an algorithm?
If it's an algorithm, it isdesigned explicitly to be addictive.
That is the
Andy (26:52):
Hmm
Ben (26:52):
model of the software company that shows you the bottomless feed.
as much of a, of yourattention as they can get.
They, they literally measure their successby, uh, how much of your time they get.
Okay,
Andy (27:08):
mm Okay.
Ben (27:08):
mental health.
It's associated with addictivealgorithms, social media, lot
of video platforms like YouTube.
Bottomless feeds.
Physical side is exposure tostrangers and exposure to predators.
Um, this is primarily facilitatedvia systems that have online chat.
(27:36):
So we have two things to worry about asparents, primarily if we want to take,
like how do we, how do we knock 90% of theproblems down with two things, addictive
algorithms, online chat, so, so let's talka little bit about the online chat thing.
So there are 5 billionpeople on social media.
There's roughly 6 billionpeople on the internet.
(28:00):
With every day that passes thatI research this topic of how to
keep kids safe on the internet.
I learn more and more thatthe problem is bigger than I
thought it was the day before,
Andy (28:12):
Hmm.
Ben (28:13):
and it's very disheartening and it's very, oh, it's terrible.
Andy (28:19):
Okay.
Ben (28:19):
are a percentage of people that intentionally harm children.
And sometimes do it in ways thatwe don't even have to speak about.
Andy (28:32):
Right.
Ben (28:33):
And it happens at such a high frequency that we
must pay attention to it.
And I'll put it into very firm numbers.
These two problemstogether, actually both.
There's two, there's, there's,there's two sort of statistics
that are worth knowing about.
There are the FBI measures.
(28:56):
Uh, and estimates about one suicideper month that's associated with a
predator finding a child to victimizeand using, for example, sextortion,
where they elicit an image from thechild and then they blackmail them,
and some of those kids kill themselves.
(29:18):
And it's, it's, I've, I've been in tearsreading and about this and researching it.
It's the most horrible thing.
The other statistics that, theother statistic that's worth knowing
about with respect to safety ingeneral, back to like the addictive
algorithms, is that the last.
Like, since like roughly 2007,2010, the, um, suicide statistics,
(29:44):
and I, I found this by accident.
I was, I was browsing the WorldHealth Organization's, death
certificate database because I reada lot about depression and anxiety,
Andy (29:55):
Hmm.
Ben (29:56):
I was like, okay, like the ultimate sort of outcome and the
worst case scenarios is suicide.
And so let me, what are the trendslike, are, are we actually, like
what's the impact on, on this?
And it turns out that the, I foundthat some data that indicates
that the impact is very severe.
So between the ages of 10and 24, suicide rates have
(30:17):
increased by three to 400% 2007.
Suicide is now the number two leadingcause of death amongst young people.
So we have, uh, automotiveaccidents are number one,
Andy (30:31):
Mm-hmm.
Ben (30:32):
suicide is number two.
homicide is number three, they actuallymatch up the same between boys and girls.
It's those three.
Andy (30:39):
Wow.
Ben (30:41):
When I found that out, this was in December.
I found this, I think December of 24
I com.
My entire everything changed.
I was like, okay, I, I'd givenlectures prior to finding this data.
I've given lectures to parentstalking about this topic, right?
Where I talk about moderation.
(31:02):
Okay, if you're going to give your kidssocial media, if you're going to put
them on a platform that exposes them toonline chat, here's the parental controls
and here's the tools and this and that.
And then I found out the data I was like,okay, for me, there's no more moderation.
Like these things are so exextremely dangerous for kids that.
(31:23):
We, my opinion is that we shouldn't,we should set our kids up for
success by not exposing them tothese drugs to these predators.
And so, so let's tie it back together.
How, how do we keep our kidssafe on the internet this summer?
What controls do we leverage?
So firstly, um, identify thesystems that they use and see
(31:46):
if they have bottomless feeds.
If they do consider in an extremescenario, which I. I suggest, although
it's simple to say, them, secondarily,practice moderation of leverage, the
tools that are built into the systemsin order to moderate the amount of
time that is spent to minimize theimpact of the addictive chemicals.
(32:09):
So.
iPhones.
Androids, Chromebooks, windows computers.
Mac computers, they all have free parentalcontrols built in that allow you to
restrict the time that gets spent app.
I recommend taking advantage of that.
The other thing is on the online chat,how do we protect our kids from predators?
(32:33):
Many of the systems, like thegames that have online chat,
Roblox, Fortnite, Minecraft, theyall have free parental controls
that allow you to turn off online.
Chat.
I. Very much suggest that you do that.
That is, the statistics are horrifying.
Like I was mentioning, uh, Snapchat alone.
(32:55):
Snapchat internally identified threeyears ago that there were 10,000 reported
cases of sextortion per month, juston Snapchat, just on three years ago.
Those are the ones that are reported.
Andy (33:14):
Right.
Yeah.
The ones that are reported.
Ben (33:17):
so if we look across Roblox, Fortnite, all the, these, there's
a research report that, that calledRoblox, uh, a pedophile Hellscape.
You know, the online chat isthe tool that facilitates that.
So I would recommend eliminatingand or heavily reducing
(33:38):
exposure to algorithms and, um.
It reducing or eliminating exposureto, uh, online chat with strangers.
Andy (33:48):
Yeah, I, I, I completely agree, and I will even say that as an adult.
Uh, when I game, I don't turn onthe chat with other people either,
because generally it's just anegative experience that as an adult
I don't want to have to deal with.
Like, you know, I get, you know,taken out by somebody and I end
up like 56 out of a hundred.
I'm like, yeah, I don'tneed you rubbing that in.
(34:08):
You know, that sort of thing.
So like, don't do it as an adult.
Certainly don't letyour kids do it as well.
It's just better off foreverybody's mental health.
So yeah.
Great, great point There.
Um, so let me ask you this.
Um, you talked about seeingsigns of addiction in your son.
Um, you've read all of thisresearch, you've been doing this.
(34:29):
What are some of the red flags thatwe need to look for in our children
that either says one, okay, theyare becoming addicted to these
bottomless algorithms, or maybesomething has happened in an online
chat that has made them uncomfortable.
What are those red flagswe need to look for?
Ben (34:48):
That's a great question and it's, it's one of the, it's one of the
more challenging components because
as kids age.
They go through different things, right?
Like their, theirbehavior patterns change.
And one of the signs of addictionis the change in behavior patterns.
But you can, one of the ways that'seasiest to tell is if, if the
(35:15):
technology thing, the tablet, thecomputer, the gaming system, if that
is removed, or like if they wannaplay it right now and you say no.
How do they react?
Andy (35:28):
Hmm.
Ben (35:28):
reaction can tell you a lot.
Right?
So you have extreme examples thatyou can find online of on YouTube
and social media of kids it.
Like full blown.
Like if you were to go, if you were totake a meth addict and go cold Turkey, and
that's that, you know, like freaking out.
(35:49):
And, and, and just like how youand I, it's normal for us to
be addicted to these things.
This also is not a judgment on the child.
This is normal.
This is expected.
Andy (35:59):
Right.
Right.
Ben (36:01):
And so if you remove the technology or you say, and there's
a lot of nuance here, right?
Because also, just like therest of us, they, they want to
identify patterns and expectations.
Every day at six o'clock,I get to do this thing.
Let's say, well, if you change thething, if you just rip it outta
(36:21):
their hands, they'll explode.
'cause like, that's not away to introduce change,
Andy (36:26):
Hmm.
Ben (36:27):
know?
So, so, so you have to like, knowyour kid of, of obviously, uh, of,
you know, how do you introduce change?
But the, if you can, if you can run somelittle ex like bite-sized experiments
and like if you introduce changeinto their technology environment.
How extreme is their reaction?
(36:47):
And that will indicate to you how sort ofchemically tied to the device they are.
Um.
And so it's, you know, 'cause 'causethere's a lot of, I've, I've interviewed
some parents whose kids have beenvictims of extortion and, and on
a similar, um, uh, sort of topic,like what do we look for in our kids
(37:09):
to see if they're become victims?
some similar stuff.
It's like, well, their behavior changed.
They started doing weird stuff.
They started changingthe way their room looks.
They started dressing different.
Well, did they turn 13 or did theybecome a victim of sextortion?
Andy (37:22):
Right.
Ben (37:23):
um, and so, so then below all that is the relationship dynamic and
the transparency and the communicationof how I. How comfortable is my kid
to come with to me with problems?
And these are things that ofcourse, don't develop overnight.
(37:43):
Like this is just part ofthe, the, the family dynamic.
And so, you know, ongoing communication,sometimes you can see, does my kid know
more than they should a certain topic?
Andy (37:57):
Sure
Ben (37:57):
do they all of a sudden know a little too much about
something that's beyond their age?
Like that could indicate an un unhealthyexposure to something on the internet.
Andy (38:06):
That, that's a good point.
And I think a lot of that just goesback to you have to observe your kid.
Like we have to take our own facesout of our phones and actually
see what's going on with our kids.
Awesome.
Ben (38:16):
Yeah.
Andy (38:18):
So Ben, as we wrap up here, um.
I'm gonna completely steal thisquestion from a friend of mine in
his podcast, but if you could put onemessage on a billboard for everyone
to see about this, what's the message?
Ben (38:34):
That's so good.
Man.
I, I love that
Andy (38:37):
I know, and I, it's not even my question.
Ben (38:41):
It's the best because it's like, because narrow one thing.
What's the
Andy (38:44):
one thing.
Ben (38:46):
Um, it would be a question.
It would be, and as big a lettersas I could fit on the billboard.
What do you value?
Andy (38:59):
Yeah.
Okay.
Ben (39:00):
something to inspire, thought, what do I value?
So I drive by the billboard.
I'm on my way to work.
I'm on my way back from work.
What do I, Val, what do I value?
God, let me think about that.
And then next time something occurs andor I'm staring at my phone or I'm doing
a thing, or I'm having a conversationwith my wife or my kid, what do I value?
You know, I just, I justhad the opportunity.
(39:22):
I'm 44.
I just wrote down my values forthe first time, like two weeks ago.
Um, I, nobody ever asked me orintroduced that to me prior.
Andy (39:36):
Right.
Ben (39:36):
were my, what, what do I value?
awesome.
It was so fun.
I wrote down a wholelike page full of stuff,
Andy (39:43):
That's awesome.
Ben (39:43):
is I went, after I wrote down the page full of stuff is
I went back and like, what werethe, what were the first three?
I wrote down and it wasfun to see what those were.
And so, 'cause they'll be alittle different for everybody.
Right?
And this is where like the beautyof humans come in is like, we
all have our different culturesand social norms and values.
What are those values?
And then if we identifythem for ourselves, so I
(40:05):
told my son what mine were.
Here are my values.
And then I translated them into,so therefore my strategy as a
parent to you is as follows.
And then I documented my strategyand I told him what it was.
It was so, it was amazing.
He was sitting therelike, wow, this is cool.
Um, and so, yeah.
(40:26):
What do you value?
Andy (40:29):
What do you value and can you find those values on an
unending algorithm on social media?
You know, can you,
Ben (40:37):
that's, that's a good, that's, that's a good one.
That's the
Andy (40:40):
yeah.
Ben (40:40):
the real question.
Andy (40:42):
Yeah.
Yeah, man, I tell you what, like,I, I know that I invited you on
here to talk to my audience, butman, I really feel like you helped
me a lot today, uh, as well, man.
So I appreciate that.
Yeah.
So, Ben, I know people, they're,they're gonna wanna know more
about you and your mission.
Um, where can they find you online?
Ben (41:01):
So I have a website called FamilyITGuy.com and it's.
A huge free library of resourcesand, and a lot of the organizational
elements I spoke about today.
You'll see that in the websitethat kind of breaks stuff into
these like simplified categories.
A lot of how to guides andresearch and statistics.
(41:21):
And then I have a TikTok channel and anInstagram and all the things, which is
ironic, but I'm trying to go to where
Andy (41:28):
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
Ben (41:30):
And so I'm on all the social medias and the YouTube and all that.
And, uh, know, would love to, to have you,uh, anybody listening, use any of those
resources any way you'd like and, youknow, reach out to me if you need help.
Andy (41:44):
Alright, man, I, I appreciate this so much.
I have learned a lot from you.
It's just been good just to sit here and,and talk to you and, um, just get your
perspective from, from one dad to another.
I, I've really appreciated this man.
Best of luck.
Ben (41:56):
Thank you very much, Andy.
Cheers.
Andy (42:00):
That's all that we have for The Secure Family Podcast today.
Thank you friend for listening.
By the way, this is the 330th episodeof this podcast going back to the
previous name, The Secure Dad Podcast.
So that just amazing that after 330episodes, we are still going strong.
And thanks again to Benfor being on the show.
(42:22):
I'll say that I recorded thisepisode while I was on vacation
and I ran into a technical issueand Ben was just so gracious in
helping me and also being patient.
He is honestly the real deal.
For more on him, visit FamilyITGuy.com.
Take back your privacy and personaldata with help from DeleteMe.
Get 20% off a privacy plan whenusing the code Dad at checkout.
(42:46):
DeleteMe is the official dataremoval service of The Secure Dad.
Learn everything that you need toknow as a parent about online gaming
and just 30 minutes, my ebook LevelUp is ready to download right now.
Check out the link in the description.
I'm Andy Murphy reminding you thatour safety is our own responsibility.
This is The Secure Family Podcast.
Welcome friend.
I'm Andy Murphy, the host andthe founder of The Secure Dad.
This show is all about empowering parentsto protect themselves and their family.
I believe that security is thefoundation of happiness, and I want
your family to be safe and happy.
The information that I shareon this podcast is for general
(00:32):
information purposes only.
My goal is to empower you tomake safer decisions for yourself
and for your family because oursafety is our own responsibility.
Today, I get to talk with an ex NSAcybersecurity expert about keeping
your kids safe online this summer.
All of that and more coming upon The Secure Family Podcast.
(00:58):
Well, we almost had a big steptowards data collection reform,
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But now that's not going to happen.
And honestly, that's a shame.
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So if you were waiting on legislationto protect your name, address,
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And this is where DeleteMestands ready to help.
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Just go to JoinDeleteMe.com/Dad anduse the promo code dad at checkout.
That's JoinDeleteMe.com/Dad code Dad.
My guest on the showtoday is Ben Gillenwater.
Ben is a parent as well as an ex NSAcybersecurity expert, former chief
technologist for a $10 billion IT companywith more than 30 years of experience.
(02:06):
But you know him as TheFamily IT guy on TikTok.
Here's my conversationwith Ben Gillenwater.
So thank you Ben, for joining me today.
Introduce yourself to everybody.
Ben (02:26):
Hello, I'm Ben.
I'm the family IT guy, um, I'mhere to help parents keep their
kids safe online, kind of like you.
Andy (02:35):
Yeah, I know.
It is really nice to be able tosit down and talk to somebody
who, who really understandsand gets like, what's going on.
Um, what kind of motivatedyou to start in the IT field?
Because you've had a prettyinteresting career path.
Ben (02:48):
I have been very fortunate to have a very interesting career.
Um, the thing that got mestarted was, uh, was my dad.
he fostered my, my hobbies as a kid.
So when I was 10, he brought homea Tandy, uh, computer with a,
say it was an 80, 86 processor.
(03:10):
And the cool thing is that heactually let me play with it, right?
Andy (03:13):
Mm-hmm.
Ben (03:13):
$2,000.
Andy (03:14):
Oh yeah.
Yeah, that's an adult toy.
You don't touch that as a kid.
Ben (03:17):
it's an adult toy and we weren't a family with like a, you know, a bunch
of extra cash to be like, who cares?
He let me, he let me play with it.
He let me modify dos, he let me just goin there and just mess around with stuff.
And then on the, on the weekends forfun, I wanted to go to the computer store
and like study all the motherboards andall the hard drives and all the things.
And then he would actuallydrive me to the computer store.
(03:40):
Long story short, the computer store.
me coming in all the time and I,when I was 14, they're like, Hey,
if you're old enough to come workhere, you should come work here.
And so I did.
I was by far the worst salespersonto ever enter a computer store.
I just gave everybody technicaladvice and I tried to help them
save as much money as possible.
(04:00):
So, so I ended up a, a customer of thecomputer store hired me to work with
him in his IT consulting business.
And then I got exposed to like,managing computers for companies.
Long story short ended up, um,running like really large data
centers for a defense contractor.
Like the whole, the kind thatyou see in the movies with like
(04:22):
robotic arms and raised floors androws and rows and rows of servers.
You know, I had to wear a bigjacket every time I went in
there 'cause it was super cold.
And, um.
Then the, so I worked for a comp, Iworked for a defense contractor that did,
uh, $10 billion a year in IT business.
(04:43):
So they were an ITprovider to the government.
And I ended up beingthe chief technologist.
Long story short of that,that division of the company.
And so I was the sort ofsenior technical strategist for
this $10 billion IT company.
Um, then I went on to work forBlackberry and eventually, you
(05:05):
know, Blackberry tanked and thenI, I became an entrepreneur.
My brother and I started abunch of companies, and so I've.
I've been in the game like 30 years,um, and I've, gotten to, you know, be
associated and involved with the NSA.
I've gotten to, you know, get tours ofsubmarines and aircraft carriers and
missiles and all kinds of, you know,tanks and aircraft and all this stuff.
(05:29):
and so I like to say that I spentmuch of my career doing national
security and now I do family security.
So now I'm totally focused on,and I spend most of my time on.
Helping parents understand whatthey need to know in order to keep
their kids safe on the internet.
Andy (05:47):
And, and that's really appreciated and that's very needed.
Um, so you've, you've hadthis like amazing career.
You've done all of this stuffand then one day it's like, Hey,
I'm just gonna help families.
Like is there, kind of walk me throughwhat that thought process was like and,
and like that fear of getting startedas an entrepreneur again, uh, especially
in social media when that's where awhole lot of parents are right now.
Ben (06:11):
Yeah, well, I, I, um, got into this family security thing by, uh,
just the natural course ofevents by having a kid of my own.
And so, okay, so I have a kid, um.
know all these thingsabout technology, right?
I understand the behind the scenesabout how all the systems work.
(06:33):
I can picture them in my mind.
I know what's happening, notonly with the bits and the bytes,
but also with the business.
'cause I've,
Andy (06:40):
Hmm.
Ben (06:41):
to get exposed to the business that's behind technology.
So I understand the incentive mechanisms,I understand the people structures.
I understand what they're trying toaccomplish as a business and what,
you know, I'm trying to accomplishas a person and as a parent.
Nonetheless, I made a ton of mistakes.
I, I gave my kid a tablet.
Andy (07:02):
Hmm.
Ben (07:02):
my kid an iPad.
Looking back on that, I'mlike, why did I do that?
I just introduced a precedent.
For what?
Right.
At the time, I thought it was forentertainment and for education.
Of like, Hey, like I'm a tech guy.
I should expose my kid to tech sothat he can learn and he can start
to play do what I did when I was,when I was 10, I got to play with
(07:27):
computers, but there was no internet.
Andy (07:30):
Right.
Ben (07:30):
that was in 1990.
And so all of a sudden he's watching superinappropriate stuff on YouTube, right?
And I go, okay.
Oh crap.
You of course.
Okay, YouTube fine.
Strip off YouTube.
Let's put on YouTube kids, 'causeit's, it has the word kids at the
end, so it's gotta be for kids,
Andy (07:49):
Sure.
Of course.
Right, right.
Yeah.
Ben (07:52):
It's now, what I've learned through my experience in the business world is
that you have two things in a business.
You have marketing and you have reality.
And so,
Andy (08:03):
Very true.
Ben (08:03):
so YouTube kids is the marketing.
reality is a product that's so widelyused that the filtering mechanisms.
Cannot be completely accurate.
And so then he is watching inappropriateand like scary, like nightmare stuff.
He, he had
Andy (08:22):
Mm-hmm.
Ben (08:22):
nightmares for years because of what he saw on YouTube.
Kids
Andy (08:26):
Right.
Ben (08:27):
Huggy Wuggy character with like the sharp teeth and
Andy (08:29):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Ben (08:31):
and scare people.
And the crazy part is that myson and some of his friends their
minds, they liked huggy wy yet.
We're having nightmares everysingle night about huggy, wy
Andy (08:45):
Mm-hmm.
Ben (08:46):
on YouTube kids.
Okay.
Sorry kid that I just exposedyou to that, uh, whoops.
You know, uh, my, my bad.
Really?
Okay.
Take away YouTube kids.
Okay, so now he's got this iPad.
We got a stylist so he could drawand there's like some educational
games, whatever, like, but thenthe, the, uh, the, the underlying
(09:09):
mechanisms that I knew were there.
I watched them work on a child's brain.
Andy (09:14):
Hmm.
Ben (09:15):
become addicted and demonstrate addictive behavior patterns just to the
device itself, to the iPad, let alonethe applications that were on the iPad.
I. So it's disrupting the time thathe would wake up early to play on it.
He would go to sleep laterbecause he wanted to play on it.
Andy (09:36):
Mm-hmm.
Ben (09:37):
home from school and instead of wanting to go ride his bike or
play basketball or go chat with hisfriends, he wanted to play on the iPad.
The thing was drawing him in like a drug
Andy (09:48):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Ben (09:51):
And so we had to take away the iPad completely and, and
that was a really good move.
That and, and it's still, thatwas a difficult thing to do
for him and for and for us.
But my job as a parentto establish precedence.
It's my job to recognize,uh, and correct for mistakes.
(10:13):
so I did that.
so now he has an Apple watch.
And that Apple watch, ithas a cell phone in it.
It's the cellular version,
Andy (10:22):
Mm-hmm.
Ben (10:22):
locked down, so there's nothing on the device that's attractive.
The device is a functional tool thatthat fulfills emergency communication
scenarios and, and so it's great.
He's not drawn to it.
He can just use it when heneeds to call us and we can use
it when we need to call him.
And we can filter who he can talk to.
(10:43):
Um, and so that's how it, sothat's how I got into like, so
I am an expert in technology.
I'm certainly not an expert in children,although I'm trying to be, do my best.
Andy (10:55):
Right.
Ben (10:56):
So if I am stumbling through this and finding out the hard way,
what about all the people that arenot experts that haven't spent 30
years studying computer systems?
What are they doing?
And so I start talking to my friendsand started talking to my, my consulting
clients and like turns out thatlike nobody has any idea what to do.
(11:17):
Right, like this is like
Andy (11:18):
Right.
Ben (11:18):
a new thing.
Andy (11:21):
Mm-hmm.
Ben (11:22):
that's just occurred in the world of parenting.
You know, up until 2007, achild looked roughly the same.
Andy (11:30):
Mm-hmm.
Ben (11:30):
then in 2007, the iPhone was introduced, and a few years later, those
iPhones started to trickle down to kids.
As parents would get the new one, they'd
Andy (11:39):
Yep.
Yep.
Ben (11:40):
and then all of a sudden now there's a new category of parenting.
And nobody has any ideawhat to do about it.
So that's, so that's my missionnow is how do I make digital safety
accessible to parents and to kids?
Andy (11:58):
Right, and, and that is a, that is a tall task.
I mean, you have not steppedinto something that is easy.
By any stretch, so, um, I appreciatethat you're, yeah, I appreciate that
you're using all of your skills that youhave and now, you know, trying to be,
you know, an expert parent like you weresaying, you know, but I think, you know,
a lot of people are gonnaempathize with your story here.
(12:21):
You know, 'cause they, like in 2007,our, you know, my, I was outta the
house by oh seven, but like, my parentsdidn't have to worry about this.
Your parents didn't haveto worry about this.
I didn't worry about this as a teenager.
You didn't either.
And you know, I feel like we kindof, we just got our feet under us
about, okay, this is what we can do.
And now this new kid on the blockcalled AI has come on and has just
(12:45):
completely thrown everything upside down.
What's your big concern,uh, with kids and AI today?
Ben (12:57):
It's, uh, well, so the short
Andy (12:59):
I,
Ben (13:00):
is, um, healthy skepticism.
Andy (13:04):
hmm.
Ben (13:04):
So kids are.
You know, trusting by nature, right?
We, we start off as like trustinglittle humans and then we get chopped
up a little bit and we become alittle less trusting as we age.
We start off as like super trusting.
And then there's these systemsnow that communicate in the
(13:24):
ways that we do as humans.
'cause that's what they're designed todo, but they're not built to be honest.
Andy (13:33):
Mm-hmm.
Ben (13:33):
to be truthful.
not even necessarily built to be useful.
They can be useful.
And so you expose a child to a systemthat talks like them and sounds like them
and knows how to communicate with them.
And so the the kid is gonna have isgonna, by default think that like, oh,
(13:56):
whatever comes out of this thing is true.
And then they're studying for their.
A fourth grade history class andthey're, they're going back and
looking at World War II or something,or what, you know, let's say
eighth grade history or whatever.
And the Nazis have black skinI. You know, or like Asian women
(14:20):
and like, these are like real
Andy (14:22):
Right.
Right.
Ben (14:22):
outta Google Gemini like George Washington was black and
the found the founding fathers ofthe US were Native Americans, you
know, and all this kind of stuff.
Which, and, and like by that, byitself, like for adults, like that's
a, that's a fun conversation to belike, oh gosh, that's kind of funny.
You know, we can talk about
Andy (14:40):
Mm-hmm.
Ben (14:40):
laugh it off.
But for kids, I mean, why, why?
That's true by default.
That's true, right?
Like the system saidthat, that's the thing.
And so I'm really concerned with, um, withthe intersection of a child's brain and
truth and, um, like I focus on that as aparent a lot and as a person for myself.
(15:05):
Like I'm, I'm interested in truth,and these are systems that are not
necessarily interested in truth.
And it's very troublesome.
Um, it is the reality.
And so now it's upon us to teach our kidshow to be skeptical and how to take in.
It's actually, whenever I see thesegiant problems, I, I, there's a side
(15:30):
of it that's actually really goodand because the bigger the problem
is and the more sort of simple innature that the problem is, the
easier it is for a child to digest.
Andy (15:42):
Hm.
Ben (15:42):
So the more nuanced, the thing is, perhaps the, uh, young
child, especially younger children,will struggle more with nuance.
But if you present them with thissimple concept of like, Hey, when you're
communicating with a person or with acomputer you don't personally know and
don't have a personal, direct relationshipwith, it's good to be skeptical.
(16:07):
here's what that means andhere's how you can practice.
The beginnings of critical thinking,you know, so, so there's actually like
a really cool opportunity here to runthrough exercises with kids to show
the problems that it can occur in an AIsystem and practice critical thinking.
(16:29):
if you can practice criticalthinking and you use these tools are
troublesome with which to do that,and a kid can a critical thinker.
They can apply that to every otheraspect of life, and that's amazing.
And so, but I think we have to takethe, the hard part is just like the
(16:50):
rest of this whole, like how do youkeep a kid safe on the internet?
Like, oh gosh, there's amillion things to worry about.
AI is another, another one.
So there's complexity there.
But if we, if we boil it downand we just say, here's how to
filter information from strangers.
Or from unknown sources.
(17:12):
There's, I think there'ssome cool opportunities.
Andy (17:15):
Right.
I think we're, we're handing ourkids this really big tool and
some of it is, is accurate andsome of it is not going to be.
But yeah.
Critical thinking is something that.
I, I'll say this kind of as a joke,I, I think more of us in America need
to think critically, and I'm hopingthat these sorts of conversations
will help folks to do that.
(17:35):
But I, I really feel for our kidstoday, we absolutely need to teach
them, Hey, let's, let's verify whatwe're doing first before we do it.
And so that way as they growinto adulthood, hopefully.
They will see things like onwhatever the future like Facebook
is and know okay, that's not true.
(17:55):
Whereas people today areseeing things on Facebook and
automatically, believing, it's true.
So hopefully we can,we can progress there.
Ben (18:04):
I hope so, man.
And I think we can, I really think wecan, if we have the right exposure to
guidance and values, I think we can.
Andy (18:15):
Sure.
And that, that, that's a great point.
And that's, that's been the, thebaseline of parenting for so long, right?
We just gotta keep that goingin this, in this digital age.
So, Ben, let me ask you this.
We are now in summer, andso kids are out of school.
They have more free time on their hands.
Uh, kids today don't like to be bored,so what sort of screen time boundaries
(18:38):
do we need to set up for the summer?
Ben (18:40):
Oh, that's such a good question.
You know, 'cause summertime is sooften like, we're gonna, you know,
watch the, the random like afternoonmovie that we wouldn't watch during
the school year or something, right.
Like on a Wednesday.
Um, it's a great opportunityto practice moderation.
It's a
Andy (18:59):
Hmm.
Ben (18:59):
opportunity to embrace boredom.
Like you mentioned, boredom.
Boredom is a good thing.
Andy (19:04):
It is.
Mm-hmm.
Ben (19:06):
with your mind and it's just you and your mind, that is valuable.
I feel like I. I don't know always howto put it into scientific terms, but
I just have this idea in my head weall operate at certain frequencies,
Andy (19:24):
Mm-hmm.
Ben (19:24):
and I feel like with a lot of stimulation, I envision in my
mind that the frequency increases.
I. So like the baseline forstimulation goes up, And it's just
stimulus, stimulus, stimulus, andthen boredom is the lack of stimulus.
And then if the baseline forstimulus is high and then boredom
is down here at zero, then theability to achieve boredom and to
(19:49):
appreciate and sit in it is reduced.
And so I think.
Looking at things with respectto stimulus levels is important.
if we are going to a movie, play a show,play a game, I like to look at these
things, especially for younger kids.
Like what's the stimulus level?
How often do the scenes change?
(20:10):
How brighter the colors, how loudare, how loud are the sounds?
Andy (20:13):
Sure.
Sure.
Ben (20:14):
You know, a lot of these, these modern shows, um, like I think of this
show, there's a one called Dog Man.
They just had a movie come out and a
Andy (20:22):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Ben (20:23):
are into it.
And my goodness, man, if you look at howfrequently the scenes change, it's like
boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
Like the whole time itactually made me fall asleep.
A 'cause I wasn't interested.
We went to the movietheaters and watched it,
Andy (20:37):
Right.
Ben (20:38):
but also because it was just like too much.
And so for summertime, I. I just,I would encourage parents to look
at like, what kind of stimulus,what's our stimulus baseline?
And you know, sometimes we're gonnabump that up and, and we're gonna
just do, just entertaining for thesake of entertainment in moderation.
But like, try like value thosefrequencies low value, sitting in
(21:05):
boredom value, like wandering aroundand being like, I have nothing to do.
So I wonder what thattree is like over there.
Lemme go climb it.
Lemme go, let me sit at thebottom of it and just like,
put my fingers in the grass.
You know, like that.
Like, now here's the thing, right?
So you can say that to a kid, butas parents, our job is to lead
(21:29):
by example and to set precedence.
Andy (21:31):
Right.
Ben (21:32):
How, how do we embrace boredom and do we do it together?
What do we do when there's a,when there's a lull, do we go for
the stimulus that we are used to?
Because we're all doing thesame thing as adults, right?
Like there's supposedly like 5billion people on social media.
(21:53):
Well, social media is, is anaddictive chemical, right?
It, it, it elicits an addictivechemical in our brains.
It elicits the dopamine drip.
And so, okay, so like most people.
Most adults that.
So like what are we showing ourkids and how do we lead by example?
How do we set the precedentfor them that boredom is good?
That boredom's okay that we can sit inthe car without a screen, that we can
(22:15):
go outside and just, and just look.
So we have to do that with them, right?
So like as the summer approach is now,like summer is here, like my kid is
on summer vacation now, um, you know.
It, it'd be hard to go like a full180 and say, okay, kid, up until this
point, I've been demonstrating to youthat we're gonna go for stimulus all
(22:37):
the time, but, but today is summervacation, so now we're gonna stop.
It's a hard sell,
Andy (22:43):
Right.
Yeah.
Ben (22:44):
you, you have to work your way into it.
And so I, um, as much positivity as Ican put it across with, I, I suggest
and encourage parents to recognizethat like, we have to do it first.
Right.
We have to, we have to model thebehavior that we want them to see.
(23:06):
Um, and so, yeah, so those,those are kind of my, my thoughts
Andy (23:09):
I, I know, and I, I completely agree.
And, and that's hard, you know, becauselike, I feel like our generation
kind of just stumbled into socialmedia and we got addicted not even
realizing that it was a thing.
And here we are having to tryto get ourselves out of it and
keep our kids out of it too.
I hate it when I'm sitting on the couchand all of a sudden I reach for the
phone and I'm like, what am I doing?
(23:31):
What am I trying to accomplish here?
And it was just like, no, Ijust miss seeing the phone.
And I hate that about myself, but Icertainly, I don't want that for my kid.
For sure.
Ben (23:40):
Well, and I wanna say that that that's okay.
That is normal.
That is expected.
If we, if we are to set up our kidsfor success first we must set, we
must set ourselves up for success.
And sometimes we can dothat is in unusual ways.
(24:00):
For example, there are actually studiesto show that when you place a, a phone
in a different room than you are.
that is a very effectiveway to break that.
Like first of all, the physicalability to just have it within
Andy (24:15):
Mm-hmm.
Ben (24:16):
but secondly, it puts enough and enough friction in
place so that it's effective.
And so, so that's like a really greatexample of like something that we can
practice as ourselves, as individuals islike, let's set ourselves up for success
by, for example, if it's the time of daythat we wanna demonstrate these things,
(24:38):
put the phone in the other room, likeif we're in the living room, you know,
put it in the bedroom or vice versa.
And, and the kids will see that, theywill experience that and they will
experience the additional attentionthat they get, um, and the additional
connection and the ability to havelike a whimsical conversation.
Right.
Um, so I think, dude, it's a greatexample and I'm there with you too.
(25:00):
And I, and I just, I. Like I, I, Ijust wanna tell people that, that it's
not a shameful thing, it's normal.
It's by design.
We, like you said, we are fallinginto this trap that we are just
now starting to figure out.
And so it's, it's okay.
It's totally normal, and we just haveto practice getting ourselves out of it.
Andy (25:19):
I really appreciate hearing you say that.
'cause you know, I was sitting here justbeing a whole lot harder on myself, but
what you said make a lot of differenceand yeah, there are times that I will put
the phone in the other room and I'm like,I'm just, I'm not getting up for that.
Let's, we'll, we'll do something else.
That sort of thing.
So that's, that's awesome.
That is awesome.
So let me ask you this, you know, beingthat it's summer, what are some of the
(25:40):
like parental controls and rules that weneed to set up for our kids to make sure
that when they do have permission to beonline, that they're doing so safely?
Ben (25:50):
Oh, it's a wonderful question.
So, okay.
This is a great opportunity totalk about the ways in which we
can sort of simplify these verycomplicated problems of like safety.
So first, let's breakit down into two pieces.
Let's talk about mentalhealth and physical safety.
(26:12):
So if we have a big safety bucket,we've got mental and physical.
And then, so there are twosort of technical, like ways we
can attach technology to that.
So the mental, the mentalside is the addiction side.
If the, if your kid is exposedto something with what you could
call a bottomless feed, right?
(26:33):
Scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll.
It keeps going, going, going go.
It never go, it, it's bottomless, right?
That's an algorithm.
Andy (26:40):
Hmm.
Ben (26:40):
Usually, almost always, it's like a very simple way to identify,
like, is this an algorithm?
If it's an algorithm, it isdesigned explicitly to be addictive.
That is the
Andy (26:52):
Hmm
Ben (26:52):
model of the software company that shows you the bottomless feed.
as much of a, of yourattention as they can get.
They, they literally measure their successby, uh, how much of your time they get.
Okay,
Andy (27:08):
mm Okay.
Ben (27:08):
mental health.
It's associated with addictivealgorithms, social media, lot
of video platforms like YouTube.
Bottomless feeds.
Physical side is exposure tostrangers and exposure to predators.
Um, this is primarily facilitatedvia systems that have online chat.
(27:36):
So we have two things to worry about asparents, primarily if we want to take,
like how do we, how do we knock 90% of theproblems down with two things, addictive
algorithms, online chat, so, so let's talka little bit about the online chat thing.
So there are 5 billionpeople on social media.
There's roughly 6 billionpeople on the internet.
(28:00):
With every day that passes thatI research this topic of how to
keep kids safe on the internet.
I learn more and more thatthe problem is bigger than I
thought it was the day before,
Andy (28:12):
Hmm.
Ben (28:13):
and it's very disheartening and it's very, oh, it's terrible.
Andy (28:19):
Okay.
Ben (28:19):
are a percentage of people that intentionally harm children.
And sometimes do it in ways thatwe don't even have to speak about.
Andy (28:32):
Right.
Ben (28:33):
And it happens at such a high frequency that we
must pay attention to it.
And I'll put it into very firm numbers.
These two problemstogether, actually both.
There's two, there's, there's,there's two sort of statistics
that are worth knowing about.
There are the FBI measures.
(28:56):
Uh, and estimates about one suicideper month that's associated with a
predator finding a child to victimizeand using, for example, sextortion,
where they elicit an image from thechild and then they blackmail them,
and some of those kids kill themselves.
(29:18):
And it's, it's, I've, I've been in tearsreading and about this and researching it.
It's the most horrible thing.
The other statistics that, theother statistic that's worth knowing
about with respect to safety ingeneral, back to like the addictive
algorithms, is that the last.
Like, since like roughly 2007,2010, the, um, suicide statistics,
(29:44):
and I, I found this by accident.
I was, I was browsing the WorldHealth Organization's, death
certificate database because I reada lot about depression and anxiety,
Andy (29:55):
Hmm.
Ben (29:56):
I was like, okay, like the ultimate sort of outcome and the
worst case scenarios is suicide.
And so let me, what are the trendslike, are, are we actually, like
what's the impact on, on this?
And it turns out that the, I foundthat some data that indicates
that the impact is very severe.
So between the ages of 10and 24, suicide rates have
(30:17):
increased by three to 400% 2007.
Suicide is now the number two leadingcause of death amongst young people.
So we have, uh, automotiveaccidents are number one,
Andy (30:31):
Mm-hmm.
Ben (30:32):
suicide is number two.
homicide is number three, they actuallymatch up the same between boys and girls.
It's those three.
Andy (30:39):
Wow.
Ben (30:41):
When I found that out, this was in December.
I found this, I think December of 24
I com.
My entire everything changed.
I was like, okay, I, I'd givenlectures prior to finding this data.
I've given lectures to parentstalking about this topic, right?
Where I talk about moderation.
(31:02):
Okay, if you're going to give your kidssocial media, if you're going to put
them on a platform that exposes them toonline chat, here's the parental controls
and here's the tools and this and that.
And then I found out the data I was like,okay, for me, there's no more moderation.
Like these things are so exextremely dangerous for kids that.
(31:23):
We, my opinion is that we shouldn't,we should set our kids up for
success by not exposing them tothese drugs to these predators.
And so, so let's tie it back together.
How, how do we keep our kidssafe on the internet this summer?
What controls do we leverage?
So firstly, um, identify thesystems that they use and see
(31:46):
if they have bottomless feeds.
If they do consider in an extremescenario, which I. I suggest, although
it's simple to say, them, secondarily,practice moderation of leverage, the
tools that are built into the systemsin order to moderate the amount of
time that is spent to minimize theimpact of the addictive chemicals.
(32:09):
So.
iPhones.
Androids, Chromebooks, windows computers.
Mac computers, they all have free parentalcontrols built in that allow you to
restrict the time that gets spent app.
I recommend taking advantage of that.
The other thing is on the online chat,how do we protect our kids from predators?
(32:33):
Many of the systems, like thegames that have online chat,
Roblox, Fortnite, Minecraft, theyall have free parental controls
that allow you to turn off online.
Chat.
I. Very much suggest that you do that.
That is, the statistics are horrifying.
Like I was mentioning, uh, Snapchat alone.
(32:55):
Snapchat internally identified threeyears ago that there were 10,000 reported
cases of sextortion per month, juston Snapchat, just on three years ago.
Those are the ones that are reported.
Andy (33:14):
Right.
Yeah.
The ones that are reported.
Ben (33:17):
so if we look across Roblox, Fortnite, all the, these, there's
a research report that, that calledRoblox, uh, a pedophile Hellscape.
You know, the online chat isthe tool that facilitates that.
So I would recommend eliminatingand or heavily reducing
(33:38):
exposure to algorithms and, um.
It reducing or eliminating exposureto, uh, online chat with strangers.
Andy (33:48):
Yeah, I, I, I completely agree, and I will even say that as an adult.
Uh, when I game, I don't turn onthe chat with other people either,
because generally it's just anegative experience that as an adult
I don't want to have to deal with.
Like, you know, I get, you know,taken out by somebody and I end
up like 56 out of a hundred.
I'm like, yeah, I don'tneed you rubbing that in.
(34:08):
You know, that sort of thing.
So like, don't do it as an adult.
Certainly don't letyour kids do it as well.
It's just better off foreverybody's mental health.
So yeah.
Great, great point There.
Um, so let me ask you this.
Um, you talked about seeingsigns of addiction in your son.
Um, you've read all of thisresearch, you've been doing this.
(34:29):
What are some of the red flags thatwe need to look for in our children
that either says one, okay, theyare becoming addicted to these
bottomless algorithms, or maybesomething has happened in an online
chat that has made them uncomfortable.
What are those red flagswe need to look for?
Ben (34:48):
That's a great question and it's, it's one of the, it's one of the
more challenging components because
as kids age.
They go through different things, right?
Like their, theirbehavior patterns change.
And one of the signs of addictionis the change in behavior patterns.
But you can, one of the ways that'seasiest to tell is if, if the
(35:15):
technology thing, the tablet, thecomputer, the gaming system, if that
is removed, or like if they wannaplay it right now and you say no.
How do they react?
Andy (35:28):
Hmm.
Ben (35:28):
reaction can tell you a lot.
Right?
So you have extreme examples thatyou can find online of on YouTube
and social media of kids it.
Like full blown.
Like if you were to go, if you were totake a meth addict and go cold Turkey, and
that's that, you know, like freaking out.
(35:49):
And, and, and just like how youand I, it's normal for us to
be addicted to these things.
This also is not a judgment on the child.
This is normal.
This is expected.
Andy (35:59):
Right.
Right.
Ben (36:01):
And so if you remove the technology or you say, and there's
a lot of nuance here, right?
Because also, just like therest of us, they, they want to
identify patterns and expectations.
Every day at six o'clock,I get to do this thing.
Let's say, well, if you change thething, if you just rip it outta
(36:21):
their hands, they'll explode.
'cause like, that's not away to introduce change,
Andy (36:26):
Hmm.
Ben (36:27):
know?
So, so, so you have to like, knowyour kid of, of obviously, uh, of,
you know, how do you introduce change?
But the, if you can, if you can run somelittle ex like bite-sized experiments
and like if you introduce changeinto their technology environment.
How extreme is their reaction?
(36:47):
And that will indicate to you how sort ofchemically tied to the device they are.
Um.
And so it's, you know, 'cause 'causethere's a lot of, I've, I've interviewed
some parents whose kids have beenvictims of extortion and, and on
a similar, um, uh, sort of topic,like what do we look for in our kids
(37:09):
to see if they're become victims?
some similar stuff.
It's like, well, their behavior changed.
They started doing weird stuff.
They started changingthe way their room looks.
They started dressing different.
Well, did they turn 13 or did theybecome a victim of sextortion?
Andy (37:22):
Right.
Ben (37:23):
um, and so, so then below all that is the relationship dynamic and
the transparency and the communicationof how I. How comfortable is my kid
to come with to me with problems?
And these are things that ofcourse, don't develop overnight.
(37:43):
Like this is just part ofthe, the, the family dynamic.
And so, you know, ongoing communication,sometimes you can see, does my kid know
more than they should a certain topic?
Andy (37:57):
Sure
Ben (37:57):
do they all of a sudden know a little too much about
something that's beyond their age?
Like that could indicate an un unhealthyexposure to something on the internet.
Andy (38:06):
That, that's a good point.
And I think a lot of that just goesback to you have to observe your kid.
Like we have to take our own facesout of our phones and actually
see what's going on with our kids.
Awesome.
Ben (38:16):
Yeah.
Andy (38:18):
So Ben, as we wrap up here, um.
I'm gonna completely steal thisquestion from a friend of mine in
his podcast, but if you could put onemessage on a billboard for everyone
to see about this, what's the message?
Ben (38:34):
That's so good.
Man.
I, I love that
Andy (38:37):
I know, and I, it's not even my question.
Ben (38:41):
It's the best because it's like, because narrow one thing.
What's the
Andy (38:44):
one thing.
Ben (38:46):
Um, it would be a question.
It would be, and as big a lettersas I could fit on the billboard.
What do you value?
Andy (38:59):
Yeah.
Okay.
Ben (39:00):
something to inspire, thought, what do I value?
So I drive by the billboard.
I'm on my way to work.
I'm on my way back from work.
What do I, Val, what do I value?
God, let me think about that.
And then next time something occurs andor I'm staring at my phone or I'm doing
a thing, or I'm having a conversationwith my wife or my kid, what do I value?
You know, I just, I justhad the opportunity.
(39:22):
I'm 44.
I just wrote down my values forthe first time, like two weeks ago.
Um, I, nobody ever asked me orintroduced that to me prior.
Andy (39:36):
Right.
Ben (39:36):
were my, what, what do I value?
awesome.
It was so fun.
I wrote down a wholelike page full of stuff,
Andy (39:43):
That's awesome.
Ben (39:43):
is I went, after I wrote down the page full of stuff is
I went back and like, what werethe, what were the first three?
I wrote down and it wasfun to see what those were.
And so, 'cause they'll be alittle different for everybody.
Right?
And this is where like the beautyof humans come in is like, we
all have our different culturesand social norms and values.
What are those values?
And then if we identifythem for ourselves, so I
(40:05):
told my son what mine were.
Here are my values.
And then I translated them into,so therefore my strategy as a
parent to you is as follows.
And then I documented my strategyand I told him what it was.
It was so, it was amazing.
He was sitting therelike, wow, this is cool.
Um, and so, yeah.
(40:26):
What do you value?
Andy (40:29):
What do you value and can you find those values on an
unending algorithm on social media?
You know, can you,
Ben (40:37):
that's, that's a good, that's, that's a good one.
That's the
Andy (40:40):
yeah.
Ben (40:40):
the real question.
Andy (40:42):
Yeah.
Yeah, man, I tell you what, like,I, I know that I invited you on
here to talk to my audience, butman, I really feel like you helped
me a lot today, uh, as well, man.
So I appreciate that.
Yeah.
So, Ben, I know people, they're,they're gonna wanna know more
about you and your mission.
Um, where can they find you online?
Ben (41:01):
So I have a website called FamilyITGuy.com and it's.
A huge free library of resourcesand, and a lot of the organizational
elements I spoke about today.
You'll see that in the websitethat kind of breaks stuff into
these like simplified categories.
A lot of how to guides andresearch and statistics.
(41:21):
And then I have a TikTok channel and anInstagram and all the things, which is
ironic, but I'm trying to go to where
Andy (41:28):
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
Ben (41:30):
And so I'm on all the social medias and the YouTube and all that.
And, uh, know, would love to, to have you,uh, anybody listening, use any of those
resources any way you'd like and, youknow, reach out to me if you need help.
Andy (41:44):
Alright, man, I, I appreciate this so much.
I have learned a lot from you.
It's just been good just to sit here and,and talk to you and, um, just get your
perspective from, from one dad to another.
I, I've really appreciated this man.
Best of luck.
Ben (41:56):
Thank you very much, Andy.
Cheers.
Andy (42:00):
That's all that we have for The Secure Family Podcast today.
Thank you friend for listening.
By the way, this is the 330th episodeof this podcast going back to the
previous name, The Secure Dad Podcast.
So that just amazing that after 330episodes, we are still going strong.
And thanks again to Benfor being on the show.
(42:22):
I'll say that I recorded thisepisode while I was on vacation
and I ran into a technical issueand Ben was just so gracious in
helping me and also being patient.
He is honestly the real deal.
For more on him, visit FamilyITGuy.com.
Take back your privacy and personaldata with help from DeleteMe.
Get 20% off a privacy plan whenusing the code Dad at checkout.
(42:46):
DeleteMe is the official dataremoval service of The Secure Dad.
Learn everything that you need toknow as a parent about online gaming
and just 30 minutes, my ebook LevelUp is ready to download right now.
Check out the link in the description.
I'm Andy Murphy reminding you thatour safety is our own responsibility.
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