February 26, 2025 • 46 mins
The Impact of Flock Cameras on Community Surveillance
In this episode of The Secure Family Podcast, host Andy Murphy speaks with attorney and privacy advocate Stephanie Lindsay about the implications of Flock cameras.
They discuss how these cameras, which are stationed in communities and utilized by law enforcement, automatically capture license plate data and other details. The episode covers the benefits and potential privacy concerns associated with this technology, noting its role in investigations and its impact on everyday citizens.
For more from Stepahanie Lindsey: https://thelindseyfirm.com/
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00:00 Welcome to The Secure Family Podcast
00:54 Tax Season Scams and How to Protect Yourself
01:59 Level Up: Online Gaming Safety for Parents
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:10):
This is The Secure Family Podcast.
Welcome friend.
I'm Andy Murphy, the host andfounder of The Secure Dad.
This show is all about empowering parentsto protect themselves and their family.
I believe that security is thefoundation of happiness, and I want
your family to be safe and happy.
The information I share on this podcastis for general information purposes only.
(00:33):
My goal is to empower you to makesafer decisions for yourself and
your family because our safety.
is our own responsibility.
Today I chat with an attorneyand privacy advocate about her
experience with Flock cameras.
All of that and more coming upon The Secure Family Podcast.
(00:54):
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(03:11):
There's a link for you intoday's podcast show notes.
My guest on the show todayis Stephanie Lindsay.
You may recognize her from her socialmedia posts about Flock cameras.
Stephanie has been anattorney for 25 years.
Her goal is to help those whodon't know how to navigate the law.
And she's a privacy advocate.
It's important to note thatnothing in our interview is
(03:32):
to be considered legal advice.
Here's my conversationwith Stephanie Lindsay.
So, Stephanie, thank you so muchfor joining me on the show today.
Introduce yourself to everybody.
Well, Andy, thank you for having me today.
(03:52):
I love talking about Flock cameras,as you probably already know.
But, um, my name is Stephanie Lindsey.
I'm an attorney in the state of Georgia.
I've been a practicing attorneyfor this year make 25 years.
Very good.
Congratulations.
So what, what motivatedyou to become a lawyer?
I get that question asked of meall the time and it's, it's, I
(04:13):
hate giving the response becauseit's so cliche, but it's true.
And when I was little, uh, and my mother,she's passed on now, but she used to
tell me that, um, when I was little,probably about three years old, um, a
gentleman walked up to me and asked mewhat I want to do when I became an adult,
what did I want to do in the future?
And, um, she said that my responsewas, I want to be a judge.
(04:34):
And he looked at me and shelooked at me and was like, you
don't even know what that is.
And so as I got older, I realizedthat, you know, in order to be a judge,
traditionally, you had to be an attorney.
And so I wanted to be an attorney.
That's all I've ever wanted to be.
And I was blessed with anopportunity to become one.
And I've been one ever since.
That is awesome that you just pickthat and that is what you wanted to do.
(04:57):
And here you are doing it.
You know, I don't, I don't understand it.
And if you believe in a higher being, thenthat's the only way that you can explain
that because I have never wanted to do it.
Anything else but this, um, I've never,you know, said, Oh, I want to do this.
At one point, he didn't know.
No, I've always wanted to bean attorney always, always.
(05:18):
And I w it was gone.
It was, that was my destiny.
That's my calling.
And that's what I'm today.
And I'm just so thankful for that,for the opportunity to help you.
And to help people in a differentway, because you can help people
in all different aspects, but I,I'm using my legal knowledge and
expertise to help individuals,um, do a lot of different things.
You know, so I have a variousarea of, um, practice that I have.
(05:42):
So I do criminal, some criminal defense.
Do a lot of personal injurya lot of wrongful death.
So in all those aspectsis about helping people
very good That's what I like to haveAnd guests on my show or people who
are rich they get up every day Tomake the world a better place to
help as many people as they can.
So I very much appreciate you being
here Thank you.
(06:02):
Thank you.
All right, so you and I uh have ashared common interest and that is
a the Flock camera that has recentlybecome kind of prevalent over the
last few years, but a Flock camera isjust a Automatic license plate reader.
So kind of explain to us what thatis and why it's used by police.
(06:24):
Well, to start out, I think that whatfascinated me before even getting
into the Flock cameras was the tagreaders that were used by repo drivers.
I don't know if you ever heard of that,but repo drivers actually were the first
ones to start using those tag readers.
And, um, the way that they worked thesystem was that they would have the
camera on their vehicles and literallythey would hire people to just drive
(06:49):
around randomly, just capturing images.
And so that's how they build upthe database in order for them to
kind of utilize this technologyon reading tags and finding tags.
So, you know, I heard a call oneday years ago from a client who
indicated to me that she had gottenarrested for getting in a fight.
At a Kroger and she got in a fightwith the repo gentlemen because she
(07:13):
was in the store and um, Her husbandwas outside and the vehicle was tagged
I guess picked up by the repo guybecause she had done a title pawn on the
vehicle And so the title pawn companyhad we pulled the vehicle and so as a
result of that They were stopped andshe didn't know that you could do that.
And so that's how I learnedabout these tag readers that can
(07:35):
instantly pick up these tags.
And as long as the information is inthe database, the criteria is put in
the database about the particular tag.
The, the um, the reader willactually like pick it up.
So like for instance, if I know thatI'm looking for a vehicle that has this
tag number, this car, make, model andcolor, I can put that in the database.
And so that computer will just ridearound or the camera will just ride around
(07:59):
and as soon as it hits, It'll alert therepo guy that the vehicle is right here.
And so that fascinated me.
And so as we move forward in lifeYears past, and I'm assuming that that
technology has been, that is evolvedinto what we have now, which are the
clock cameras, which are everywhere.
So now this is a stationary camera thatis placed randomly in a community, um,
(08:22):
and they're placed by private entitiesand they're placed by government entities
and they just basically pick up tags.
That's what they used to do.
Now they're, they're, they're moreenhanced and they're picking up more than
tags now, but it's, it's amazing to me howlaw enforcement has now, um, developed.
A, um, procedure, a standard operatingprocedure of implementing those Flock
(08:45):
cameras in their investigations andhow they transact, um, business as
relates to crime solving and, um,just getting gathering information on
people that may be under investigation.
So it's, it's, um, it'sbig brother at his finest.
Big brother at its finest.
Yeah, it sounds like it.
So what sort of, you know, youtalked about obviously they're
(09:07):
getting the license plate.
What other informationare these cameras pulling?
So these cameras arenow able to pull images.
Of the individuals that are in the car,sometimes it may not be able to capture
a full, um, um, image of the person'sfeatures, but it may be able to tell that
there's more than one person in the car.
(09:27):
Sometimes it does capture your features.
You have to look at it like this.
How many people that you know, have gonethrough a yellow light, that's maybe just
now turning red, and they get a ticketweeks later, and the ticket, when they
dispute it, the ticket shows their face.
You know, that happened to me.
I just viewed it a ticket and theysent me immediately me driving through
(09:52):
the red light with a smile on my face.
Like you got to think about thatkind of technology is now being
used in these Flock cameras.
So there's that information thatthe Flock cameras are picking up.
They're also picking up informationabout the vehicle itself.
Um, it could have a sticker in the,in the windshield or sticker in the
(10:12):
back of the vehicle, um, dense, anykind of identifying I, um, markers
on the vehicle are going to be ableto be placed in the Flock camera
system to pick up, uh, these vehicles.
So it's just not tagging more.
Right.
So, you know, playingdevil's advocate here.
(10:32):
Um, so like, let's say you have apolitical party sticker on the back
of your car, they could sort all ofthe information, you know, based on
the same political party sticker on itand people who have similar of it and
kind of almost build a database of whosupports what party in a community.
Uh, look, I don't know thatspecifically, but I do know this.
(10:52):
They're able to identify a particularsticker on the vehicle, the location of a
sticker on the vehicle, and you know, likeyou said, Plains Devil's Advocate, like,
what are the limitations to, to that?
What are the limitations on yousaying, I'm looking for a red and
black sticker, um, that has thisimage on it, and I want to see the
tags associated with that sticker?
(11:15):
While I don't have personal,um, personal experience.
Through my business and identifyingthat that's what that's used for.
I can only assume that if you're ableto identify a particular sticker and a
location of the sticker, that you couldtake that information and go wild with it.
I mean, there's nothing, there's nothinglimiting what the flop camera system,
(11:37):
um, capabilities are at this point,because like I said, initially we
thought that it was just reading a tab.
We now know that that's not the case.
It's more than just reading a tag, youknow, one of the cases that I had where
we realized the, um, the ability of thefog camera was when it comes down to
these, um, vehicles that are being stolen,like, you know, your popular vehicles
(11:59):
that are being so the Hellcat, like Ihad a client that told me that he just
kept being stopped by police officers indifferent jurisdictions, and he didn't
understand and then and then caughthis attention was he was stopped In one
jurisdiction and they made a commentabout something that he said in another
(12:21):
jurisdiction and that kind of, you know,made him think and when he told me that
I said, well, how would they know that?
And when we found out was that hisvehicle was in a database, not the
vehicle itself, but the fact that hehad a Hellcat that had an out of state
license plate, there was a criteriarun in one jurisdiction, picking up all
(12:44):
those vehicles that met that description.
And when he was stopped, theygot his vehicle identification
number off of his windshield.
And you, you're, you're saying yousaid, well, how do you do that?
Well, when the officer's talking to you,they're able to get all that information.
And so they put thatinformation in the database.
So that's what caused him to keeppopping up along with his license plate.
(13:06):
And so the notation was, we need tofigure out how we can get the vehicle
identification number from somewhere elsein the vehicle, except for instead of just
on the, um, on the, um, windshield, youknow, you know, in the dashboard area.
Right, right.
Yeah.
Right there in the front.
That's what caused me to realize.
Wait a minute.
Now, how are you, how arethey getting this information?
And why is it, how are theycommunicating with one another?
(13:29):
The way they're communicating withone another when you're not a suspect
of anything and that's when we delvemore into the Flock cameras and
we started the Flock camera seriesbecause people needed to know like
you can be an innocent person.
It just has happened to have one of thesevehicles and you're going to be targeted
because you have one of these vehicles.
So,
right.
And then we went from there to, to,you know, them tracking individuals
(13:51):
that maybe vanished from a county andputting their license plate in to see
where they're, where they've traveled.
Why are you doing that?
You want to see if they're in thecounty, but Now, you don't even have to
have a witness that says that they'rein the county, that a Flock camera
can pick up your tag and show thatyou're where you're not supposed to be.
Right.
(14:11):
So, you know, there are people whosay, okay, the Flock camera provides
an important service because theycould potentially find a stolen vehicle
or somebody who has been kidnappedand this vehicle has been reported.
And I think that's all well and good.
That's, that's good policing.
But then on the other side, uh,we have Well, you know, normal
citizens are being surveilled atthe same way that criminals are.
(14:33):
Where does, where does the FourthAmendment fit into this and this new
system that we find ourselves in?
Well, I can tell you what I've researched.
Um, I understand that concern.
Um, the concern is how far arethey allowed to take it without
having some type of oversight?
(14:54):
And as it stands right now, there,there has not been any successful
challenge to the, um, FourthAmendment, you know, um, rights that
we have as relates to plot cameras.
And the reason that is because you don'thave a right to privacy to your tag.
And remember,
right,
the purpose of the plotcamera is to pick up the tag.
(15:17):
Um, you don't have a right to privacyon a sticker that's on your vehicle.
You don't have a right toprivacy on anything that is open
and obvious, On the vehicle.
You don't have a right to privacy.
You don't have a right to privacy to thecolor of the vehicle that you're driving.
You have a right to privacy tomake a model of vehicle because
there's no right to privacy.
There is no Fourth Amendment violation.
(15:40):
Now, are there violations?
We would have to assume yes, ifyou are tracking individuals, um,
without any justification for whyyou're tracking the individuals.
Sure.
Does that happen?
I would have to assume that it does.
But the bottom line ishow do we prove that?
You don't prove that unless you are ina case that has Resulted from that type
(16:05):
of surveillance and you're able to trackback that investigation to the illegal use
of Flock cameras and then you're able toproceed forward with a motion to suppress
that information because it was done.
You know, illegally or unlawfully.
So, so to kind of bring this home forfolks, when you are in public, you
have no right to privacy and the courtshave upheld that for a very long time.
(16:29):
Um, and, and while that may make us feeluncomfortable that any, I was actually
talking to my 12 year old son thismorning and I said that I was talking
to you on my podcast today and I waslike, you know, talking about flat
cameras and he's like, well, don't peopleneed permission to take your picture?
And I was like, well, andthat's what we teach kids.
That's what we teach kids now.
And so it was kind of hard toexplain to him, like, no way.
(16:51):
Cause if you're in public, youreally don't have a right to privacy,
which was kind of confusing to him.
And when I said it all out loud, itkind of sounded confusing to me too.
We did.
Let's think, let's, you know, comparethat to facial recognition software.
Like when you're out and about,you know, you're, you're.
You don't even know how manytimes you engage, um, that type of
(17:15):
software in your day to day routine.
And so, is there a constitutionalviolation for there to be face
recognition software that picksup your image and, you know, Runs
any kind of, you know, backgroundcheck or whatever the case may be as
relates to the image that they found.
Typically, my understanding is if theycatch your image, they're only able
(17:37):
to compare that image to an image thatthey have stored in the system, like
a bolo or something to that effect.
I mean, are there opportunities to.
Go beyond that, I would assume so,but we, we, we're not the way that we
used to be back in, you know, the timewhere computers and technology, you
(17:57):
know, wasn't taking over everything.
You know, we're not going, we'renot talking about using a Polaroid
camera to take an image anymore.
That's not right.
And waiting for it to come outand then we're not doing that.
So as technology evolves,um, as you know, AI evolves.
(18:18):
I would assume that therewould be challenges to Fourth
Amendment constitutional rights.
However,
with the evolution of technology,the way that it is, it makes
it, it makes it very difficult.
And you know, there are always exceptionsthat are in favor of the government when
it comes down to Fourth Amendment issues.
(18:39):
So one of the exceptions is like, likewe already know if it's open and obvious.
Is in plain view if it's inplain view then, you know, you
there's no there's no issue there,
right?
And and also to your point that you'remaking a moment ago The license plate
that you have on your car belongs tothe government technically it does
not belong to you You pay a fee for itand they require you to put it on your
(19:03):
car So it's it's government propertythat is on your personal property.
Do I have that right?
I'm not sure of that, butI can tell you this much.
It really doesn't matter who owns it.
The bottom line is, is openand obvious is in plain view.
Okay.
That's, that's, that's themain thing is in plain view.
You, you, by law, you have to haveyour tag in plain view by law.
(19:24):
You cannot have your tag.
Uh, in any way covered, you can'talter the tag, you know, to, to
speak to what you just asked.
I mean, that could be an argument thatit is government property because you
get, if it's yours, you should be ableto do it, excuse me, you should be
able to do what you want to do with it,you know, but if you are, if you alter
that tag in any way, that's a crime.
Gotcha.
(19:47):
If you, if you hide the tagin any way, that's a crime.
So I need to go wash all the white out offthe back of my license plate right now.
That's what you're telling me.
Let me tell you something.
Do you know that that's that criminalslike literally have a level of genius
that some of us can't even understand.
They now have an ability to put a,uh, film or to put pieces on the
(20:13):
back of their tags so you can'tpick them up on Flock cameras.
There's a way to, there's a way to maskthat, and so you would think that that
would help you, but again, when you havecharacteristics on your vehicle that
stand out, then that also, you know,it doesn't help that you took the tag
off, or that you altered the tag, ordid something to the tag, because the
(20:34):
bottom line is, they're still going tobe able to find your vehicle, and, and,
and I've had that instance happen wherean individual thought that by taking
the tag off of their vehicle, theywould not be, they would not be found.
They Okay.
And that did not work.
Interesting.
It didn't work at all.
Interesting.
Yeah.
You know, I'm always fascinated atthe ingenuity that some criminals
exhibit to try to get aroundsomething or to steal or whatever.
(20:59):
And I think, man, that is such, youknow, a great sign of intelligence.
I just wish you could dosomething legal with it.
I'm sure, I'm sure youhear that all the time.
Yes.
Yes.
Definitely.
Okay.
So we're talking about data collection.
In essence here, like, they'recollecting all this data on our cars.
Like, when we go to a website, wecan sometimes opt out of this data.
(21:21):
Can we, as individual citizens, optout of a license plate reader company?
Is that something that we can do?
I'm not sure you can do thatbecause again, the license
plate is out in plain view.
And so you, with a, with a licenseplate reader, what they're doing is,
(21:44):
my name is Stephanie, Itransact business with you.
And I just give you anexample for the title pawn.
I am giving you my title to pawn.
When I give you my titleto pawn, you have my make.
My model, my year, mycolor, my tag number.
(22:06):
Those are the five things thatyou have and you have my name.
And so because you have thatinformation and, and, and I'm giving
it to you, that information isgoing to be placed in a database.
So that in the future, if youdecide that you're not going to
pay, I'm able to find that vehicle.
So think about it from this standpoint.
(22:28):
If you are seeking a service fromsomeone that you need, you, you
basically are signing away so manyrights when you do that, that is
impossible for you to later on say, Idon't want every, every, every company
that's out there that has a database.
of collecting tags.
I don't, I don't wantmy information in it.
(22:48):
That's not going to happen because yousigned over certain rights when you
engage the business with the person thatyou You know, are trying to not pay.
Do you follow me?
Yes.
So
it's hard.
It's hard to use that principle of, youknow what, this is a privacy issue and
I want to opt out and I have a right toopt out because the person is not using
(23:11):
the information for, um, financial gain.
They're using the informationfor the purpose of.
Making sure that theircollateral is protected.
Right.
And their
rights are protectedas it relates to that.
Right.
And so, and you, youmake a great point here.
Because I have doneresearch on Flock cameras.
They, Flock in particular, and there'sdifferent brands that make these cameras.
(23:35):
Motorola is another one.
Um, but specifically with Flock,they are not selling your data.
They're not selling anyof that sort of stuff.
It really just goes strictlyto like police, uh, databases
and that sort of thing.
So that is at least.
One thing, you know, in theirfavor that they're not selling
this data without our consent.
They're not doing that.
(23:56):
And the neighborhoods now, they'renow, it started out focused on
subdivisions that just wanted tohave another measure of surveillance
to deter crime in their community.
And it, it, it just evolved somuch into now the government
(24:16):
can lease Flock campers.
And that, that's another layer of issuesthat you have when you see a block
camera and, um, and, and ironically, Istarted the series and probably a week
after I started the series, the series,I got a call from an individual from
local law enforcement, let me know, um,that because of my, they, they, they
(24:37):
believed, and they were joking whenthey said it, but it was true because
of me talking about the block camera somuch, someone had come in the community
and had destroyed a block camera.
Oh, all right.
And, and I was like, well, that's notsmart because they can capture you
destroying the Flock camera becausethey're going to capture your image.
(24:59):
Because even though you're not avehicle, you walked up to the camera.
And so as a result of that, younow on image for the Flock camera.
One of the things that I, um, apositive thing for Flock camera is this.
I, I was talking to one of my friendsand they had indicated to me that
someone had dumped, I know everybodydeals with this, people that do illegal
(25:20):
dumping in your community, right?
Mm-hmm . And they had dumped on oneof the main roads in our community.
They had dumped a sofa.
And chair.
I was like, this is thecraziest thing ever.
And as we were talking, they madea comment about the Flock camera
being close to where they dumped it.
And I said, well, maybe Flockcameras can be used for that as well.
(25:43):
Because if you are on a Flock cameraand you're driving a truck because
you know that the sofa and the chairis not going to fit in the car.
You're driving a truck.
You may be able to identifywho the person was that was
transporting it and, um, dumped it.
And so, you said earlier, there's somany positive things that the Flock
Camera can be used for, and it is.
(26:05):
You know, we had a murder in our communitythat was solved because of a Flock Camera.
Okay.
So, the things, like, kidnappings.
Um, there's a show that used tobe on Hear No Evil, See No Evil.
Mm hmm.
It used to be on Identity.
And what they would do is they wouldjust If somebody was missing or something
happened to someone, they would trackall the cameras that that person had.
(26:29):
Um, came in contact with and justthe track, keep tracking their
movements through the cameras.
Same thing with block with the vehicles.
You know, we have crimes that are solvedbecause you may have a vehicle that's
picked up near a crime scene and youtrack that vehicle everywhere that that
vehicle is gone and it sets a patternthat that may be the suspect that you are
(26:50):
looking for for a crime that occurred.
So it's a lot of positive thingsthat block camera can be used for.
You just have to set Parametersso there's not misuse.
Right, right.
And we'll, we'll talk about, Iwant to ask your opinion on those
parameters here in just a few minutes.
Um, but I think about three weeksago, uh, Motorola, uh, faced privacy
(27:15):
issues due to the fact that they haddata leaks, uh, on their websites.
And what was happening was car detailsand images were not properly secured.
And so, and I use the phrase hackerlike loosely, it was somebody who just
realized, oh, wait a minute, if I plugthis information in, I can get all of
(27:36):
the data off of this Motorola licenseplate reader camera, and then all of a
sudden I'll Somebody who is unauthorizedhas access to this information.
So with the data that's like beingcollected with these cameras,
how strictly does this stuff needto be safeguarded against from
it falling into the wrong hands?
(27:59):
Well, I would say that with with anycollection of data, um, if you're
going to be the catalyst for that typeof industry, then you need to know
that there are people that are goingto be ready to challenge your ability
to use those items, especially ifyou are a person that likes privacy.
(28:23):
And so the first challenge would bewhether or not the actual company has
employed measures To secure that data,because while that information may not
have a financial interest to the companythat's collecting it, if it is breached,
then it could be a financial repercussionthat the individual can suffer as a result
(28:47):
of you not properly securing my data.
So, I think that that starts the dialogueof what are the proper parameters
to regulate that particular market.
And that's a conversation that needsto be had because, you know, excluding
what we're going, what's going onright now with, with data collection
(29:07):
and individuals that should nothave, um, access to certain data.
The bottom line is you have individualsthat have, um, malfeasance on their heart.
They, they, they don't have goodintentions for your information.
And so they're going to figure outa way that they can capitalize on
(29:28):
getting this information, especiallywhen you don't put in place, um, I
guess, mechanisms or measures to kindof deter from breaches happening.
Like think about, think about all thelosses that have happened in the past.
Where these companies, they were, theywere proud of the fact that they were
able to collect all this data on youand they would sell your information
(29:50):
to other companies that needed, youknow, information about mothers that,
you know, are single mothers or, orindividuals that are in a particular
demographics in a particular region.
They're selling all this information.
And so now, you know, you got, Okay.
All this data about vehicles, allthis data about individuals and, um,
(30:11):
their, their loan frequencies, youknow, because most of these, most
of these things started out withtitle pawn companies using this data.
And so you got all this informationon people and you're not putting
in any kind of measure to makesure that that information is safe.
I mean, I know that I know that peoplefeel like we're in a litigious world,
(30:31):
but that's how you fight, you know,your privacy issues right there.
Sometimes the privacy issue isnot fought on privacy grounds.
Sometimes your privacy issues are foughton financial grounds because you messed
up, leaked my information, and as aresult, somebody has stolen my identity,
pretended that they own this vehicle,um, that I own, and, you know, here
(30:52):
we are, I have now these individualsthat have, um, loans in my name.
Just to give you an example, when you gothrough your credit, um, clearances, like
when you apply for something and theyask you all these questions about, um,
they may ask you a question like, whatvehicle did you own, uh, in, in 2000?
(31:14):
Um, who was your loan?
Um, who's your lender onthis particular vehicle?
That's information thatoverlaps into these databases.
Mm hmm.
Okay.
And so if they can get information onStephanie, and they may have, this is
her name, this is where she used to live10 years ago, this is where she used to
(31:35):
live, but they don't have my informationon a vehicle, but they're able to get
my information on a vehicle as a resultof your sloppiness and your inability to
secure my data, then they have a wholepicture of who I am, and if that question
is being asked, They're able to providean accurate response to that question.
Right.
Right.
Sometimes your best arguments are notnecessarily arguments regarding privacy.
(31:58):
Sometimes you can argue those issuesand be able to get, you know, what
you're trying to get accomplished.
That you would not have gottenaccomplished if you challenged
things by the Fourth Amendment.
Right.
Okay.
So, Flock cameras and Motorola camerasand all these, you know, ALPR cameras,
they are holding and retaining the data.
(32:19):
But, they are also purging them.
But, it seems to be, in the research thatI've done, it's kind of up to the company,
where and when they want to do it.
And then it's kind of up to locallaw enforcement to say, Oh, wait,
we need to hold on to this one fora little while, and they can kind
of flag it to keep it for longer.
Um, you know, if you could write a lawabout, you know, ALPR cameras in the
(32:45):
state of Georgia, what sort of, like,data retention would you put into it?
What sort of, I don'tknow, even public notice?
Like, what, what would Stephanie's law be?
To help one police and also to privacyadvocates when it comes to these cameras.
Well, for one thing, I think thatthere needs to be education, um,
(33:07):
to the individuals that, you know,definitely are going to interact
with this particular camera.
I think that there should bea notice placed in the paper.
Um, you know how they have legalnotices when you know that there's
a camera that's going to becoming to a particular community.
You need to put that notice in a newspaperof that community to let people know
that there's going to be a Flock camerathat's installed in the community
(33:28):
and where it's going to be installed.
Now, I know that there'll be peoplethat'll say, well, you know what,
why would we want to do that?
Because, you know, this is, thisis, this is primarily for criminals.
This is primarily for criminals.
You know, depending on who you are,depending on how much stink you make,
everybody is one step away from beingidentified by law enforcement as,
I mean, that's the reality of it.
(33:50):
And so I think that it's important for usto have full transparency, especially when
the government, they're the ones that areleasing it because you don't have to be a
government entity to lease a block camp.
You could be a neighborhood,but they'll be able to use it.
And so I think that that's a start.
With, um, with writing legislation thataddresses privacy issues with, with, um,
(34:14):
flat camera as relates to anything else.
It's such a complex area and peopledon't realize how complex it is.
When you talk about the informationthat can be gathered in this, um, if I
say, you know what, let's go ahead andpurge the information after a year, but
then there's something that happened.
(34:34):
You know, two years ago, and thiswould have been, you know, great for
us to be able to utilize the technologyto find out what the information was
during that time period and how we canmove forward with our investigation,
then that information is lost.
It's hard to tell a parent of a childthat has been abducted or a child that
(34:56):
has, um, you know, unfortunately hasmet, you know, unfortunate circumstances.
Um, I purge, we purge the information sowe can't get that information for you.
You know, you keep everything elseforever, but you couldn't keep
this information for four years.
So just in case it was needed, youknow, later on, we would have it.
(35:17):
So it's so complex.
I mean, I've never really even givenit a lot of thought because the
concern right now is just educatingthe people on what they are.
I mean, some people don'teven know what they were.
They, they, I mentioned it.
I said, I'm gonna post somepictures of what they are.
And I posted the pictures and I hadeverybody that's in my neighborhood.
(35:42):
There's
several of them.
They had no clue.
If you, my dad used to raise us where,when we, he only did this to the
girls, he didn't do these to the boys.
We had to learn, um, um, as we droveto pay attention to different things.
And my dad was in law enforcement.
So he would always have us driveand then ask us questions about what
(36:04):
we saw or what the street name was.
As you know, he would, he, you wouldbe a street name 2020 paces back.
And he'll ask you, well,what was that street name?
You know, a mile back?
And you're like, what?
And, but you, you could notdrive or get your license until
you master this, the girls.
Okay.
Uhhuh.
. So what that did was that, that allowedme to learn how to pay attention to my
(36:26):
surrounding when I Dr. When I drive.
And so when I started seeingthese things, I was like, what
in the world are those things?
You know?
I mean like they, becausethey don't look like cameras.
Mm-hmm . And I thought thatthey were solar panels.
Right.
Right.
But there were mini
solar panels to help, uh, I guess,um, you know, provide energy to
certain things that were underground.
That's what I thoughtthere were initially.
Sure.
And then later on I realized itwas, there were, there were cameras.
(36:49):
Right.
Yeah, they look like, um, they looklike little bird houses on a pole with
a little slanted, uh, solar panel on it.
And if you go to pretty much any Lowe'sHome Improvement store, you will see
them in their parking lot becausethey are tracking all of the cars that
are coming in and out of their lot.
Even if you don't have businessin Lowe's, you're just driving
through, the flat cameras there aregonna pick up your license plate.
(37:15):
So that's, uh, that's, that's crazy.
And you, you didn't ask for that!
You just want to go in there and get youritems from Lowe's, you want to get some
plants, you want to get some fertilizer,you want to get, you know, some equipment.
You didn't ask for all your informationabout your vehicle to be blasted
all over the United States becauseeverybody is going to have it.
(37:37):
Right.
Yeah, and that's the hard thing.
Okay, so we've talked about Flockcameras, you know, I felt like you've
done a great job in educating us inwhat's good about them and what's bad.
For anybody who's just learningabout this, what tips do you have
for them just to be able to navigatethis subject and still try to
maintain some level of privacy?
(38:00):
You know, what I've been tellingpeople is Don't do crime because that
that's the thing you there's nothingthat you can do to get around a
Flock camera There's you can't there.
There's no way that you can drive down thestreet see a plot camera and say I'm not I
refuse to You know adhere to this Invasiveintrusion on my rights and I'm gonna stop
(38:23):
and I'm not gonna go this way I'm gonnaturn around and go another way because
there's gonna be one wherever you go.
There's a plot camera.
You cannot miss it Youknow, that's all I can say.
It's just that if you are a homeownersassociation and you're interested in
getting a Flock camera, I would suggestthat you really educate your homeowners
on what that entails, because whileit would all it would be great for
(38:48):
the neighborhood to monitor activitygoing in and out of the neighborhood.
At the same time, you need to advisethem that this is a permissible
invasion of your privacy.
Right, yeah, because a lot of peopleare like, Oh, that sounds great, because
we'll catch criminals coming in and out.
But it's also gonna tagyou going in and out.
Maybe you're going inand out at odd hours.
(39:08):
Maybe some car is driving to yourhouse that you don't want to have
to explain to everybody else.
Because it's your own private business.
But that sort of stuff is getting loggedby these cameras that are owned by HOAs.
Well, and you know what?
The crazy thing is, um, when we firststarted talking about this, I said, you
know, we don't realize that when we,when we first learn about a product or
(39:33):
a type of technology, we learn it theway it is and the way it's intended.
Over time, the purpose and the use.
Changes.
And so while now is being used asan investigative tool for criminal
activity, there may be a timewill it be, it will be used as an
(39:54):
investigative tool for civil activity.
For instance, if you are married andyou're getting a divorce and in the
divorce action, you're trying to provecertain things in the divorce action,
there may be a time where you willbe able to utilize a flat camera by.
Providing a tag number, make amodel of your spouse's vehicle, and
(40:18):
asking the company to provide theactivities of where that vehicle has
gone over a certain period of time.
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
And that's not what peoplethink about at first.
They don't think about that at first.
They're thinking, oh yeah, you know,we want the criminals to be caught.
We want this.
We want that.
Yeah.
But you, but then when you're thesubject of it, then you, then,
(40:40):
then you worry about your rights.
That's right.
That's what always amazes me.
You don't, you don'tthink about your rights.
You thinking about, look, we'regoing to get these criminals.
You're not, your, your rights are notin the fourth, you know, front of your
thoughts because you're saying, I said,well, I'm not doing anything wrong.
Cause that's the first thingpeople say on social media.
I don't have anything to worry about.
I'm not doing anything wrong.
Well, you have everything to worryabout because if you're the target of
(41:02):
whatever it is, then, and you're not doinganything wrong, but you're just a target.
You don't know what extent thatthey will go through to make sure
that they can establish what they'rewanting to establish about you.
So, it's something to think about.
Right now, it's criminal investigation.
Later on, it may be civil.
It may be civil now,we just don't know it.
True.
We don't know.
(41:23):
Yeah, I mean, this is justthe very beginning of 2025.
Who knows what things are goingto look like in 10 months.
We don't.
We don't.
I mean, look, I'll be the firstone to tell you, I learned about AI
three years ago at a law convention.
Right.
And, you know, when they were talkingabout AI, they were saying that there
is a particular, um, um, softwarethat will allow you to enter and draft
(41:49):
up a brief and draft up documentsfrom the standpoint of an attorney.
I was like, no way.
And so in one of those areas,they were looking at a law change
to not make it where you have topass a bar to become an attorney.
Like you didn't have to take the barexam to become an attorney because
this technology was available tohelp facilitate some of the legal
(42:11):
things that you needed to do.
And I was like, yeah, right.
Look at how many lawyersnow are using chat GPT
law.
Yeah.
Look at how many
non lawyers are using it.
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's, uh, we're, we're findingout new stuff every day.
So what I've, what I've learnedfrom, from you today, Stephanie,
is that, um, don't commit crime.
(42:35):
I need to back into my parkingplace, uh, from now on so that, um,
somebody doesn't get my tag that way.
That doesn't help.
I had a client that did that.
Really?
It did not help.
He backed into these placesso you couldn't get his tag.
He took his tag off in someplaces and they still were able
(42:57):
to track him because of a sticker.
Oh my goodness.
Because of a sticker on his vehicleand the fact that he had an accident
and the accident showed the damagethat he had from the accident was on
the vehicle and they put that into thecriteria and they were able to track him.
Good.
And I wish I could go into moredetail on how they actually.
(43:18):
Went through step by stepto track him, but they went
step by step and tracked him.
And when we had the case, we wereable to obtain all this information.
And I sat there and I looked at this andI was like, you have got to be kidding me.
It was, it was amazing because There wasnothing that would identify him at all.
(43:41):
Wow.
Wow.
Well, Stephanie, I have learned alot from you today from, you know,
the folks who were listening here.
They want to find out more about youand the series that you were doing
on Flock Cameras on social media.
Where can they find you online?
Um, Attorney Stephanie.
So it's at Attorney Stephanie on TikTokand at Attorney Stephanie on Instagram.
(44:04):
And our YouTube page, um, atattorney Stephanie, do you, I think
that is, um, it's set up wherethe Flock camera series is in one.
Location so you can pick up all the slotcamera information and is the same way
organized on TikTok and Instagram but isa great series for you to look at because
We started in the early stages and as wewent along we still had people that were
(44:28):
contacting us asking us questions aboutblack cameras Ironically, we had attorneys
contacting us asking about black camerasLaw enforcement was very engaged because
I got I got calls from law enforcement.
I you know, I have a lot of Peoplein law enforcement that I consider
to be friends and close to, and theywould tell me this is what's going on.
And this is what happened.
(44:48):
And you're not going to believe this.
And that's how I'm learning so much aboutit from the other, the other aspect of it.
Yeah, well, that's amazing.
So Stephanie, thank you somuch for your time today.
I appreciate you.
I appreciate that you were tryingto educate us and you were trying to
make your community a better place.
God bless you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
And thank you Andy for having meand giving me an opportunity to
(45:09):
talk more about Flock cameras.
They're everywhere.
They are every where.
Well, this wraps up this episodeof The Secure Family Podcast.
Thank you, friend, for listening.
Thanks again to Stephaniefor being on the show.
For more from her, visitTheLindseyLawFirm.com.
(45:29):
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There's a link for youin today's show notes.
(45:51):
If you'd like to know moreabout The Secure Dad, join
me on Instagram and TikTok.
My username for bothplatforms is The Secure Dad
.And of course, my website is available to you 24 7 at TheSecureDad.com.
I'm Andy Murphy reminding you to beaware of your surroundings, and you'll
start to notice cameras in placesthat you never thought they'd be.
This is The Secure Family Podcast.
Welcome friend.
I'm Andy Murphy, the host andfounder of The Secure Dad.
This show is all about empowering parentsto protect themselves and their family.
I believe that security is thefoundation of happiness, and I want
your family to be safe and happy.
The information I share on this podcastis for general information purposes only.
(00:33):
My goal is to empower you to makesafer decisions for yourself and
your family because our safety.
is our own responsibility.
Today I chat with an attorneyand privacy advocate about her
experience with Flock cameras.
All of that and more coming upon The Secure Family Podcast.
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There's a link for you intoday's podcast show notes.
My guest on the show todayis Stephanie Lindsay.
You may recognize her from her socialmedia posts about Flock cameras.
Stephanie has been anattorney for 25 years.
Her goal is to help those whodon't know how to navigate the law.
And she's a privacy advocate.
It's important to note thatnothing in our interview is
(03:32):
to be considered legal advice.
Here's my conversationwith Stephanie Lindsay.
So, Stephanie, thank you so muchfor joining me on the show today.
Introduce yourself to everybody.
Well, Andy, thank you for having me today.
(03:52):
I love talking about Flock cameras,as you probably already know.
But, um, my name is Stephanie Lindsey.
I'm an attorney in the state of Georgia.
I've been a practicing attorneyfor this year make 25 years.
Very good.
Congratulations.
So what, what motivatedyou to become a lawyer?
I get that question asked of meall the time and it's, it's, I
(04:13):
hate giving the response becauseit's so cliche, but it's true.
And when I was little, uh, and my mother,she's passed on now, but she used to
tell me that, um, when I was little,probably about three years old, um, a
gentleman walked up to me and asked mewhat I want to do when I became an adult,
what did I want to do in the future?
And, um, she said that my responsewas, I want to be a judge.
(04:34):
And he looked at me and shelooked at me and was like, you
don't even know what that is.
And so as I got older, I realizedthat, you know, in order to be a judge,
traditionally, you had to be an attorney.
And so I wanted to be an attorney.
That's all I've ever wanted to be.
And I was blessed with anopportunity to become one.
And I've been one ever since.
That is awesome that you just pickthat and that is what you wanted to do.
(04:57):
And here you are doing it.
You know, I don't, I don't understand it.
And if you believe in a higher being, thenthat's the only way that you can explain
that because I have never wanted to do it.
Anything else but this, um, I've never,you know, said, Oh, I want to do this.
At one point, he didn't know.
No, I've always wanted to bean attorney always, always.
(05:18):
And I w it was gone.
It was, that was my destiny.
That's my calling.
And that's what I'm today.
And I'm just so thankful for that,for the opportunity to help you.
And to help people in a differentway, because you can help people
in all different aspects, but I,I'm using my legal knowledge and
expertise to help individuals,um, do a lot of different things.
You know, so I have a variousarea of, um, practice that I have.
(05:42):
So I do criminal, some criminal defense.
Do a lot of personal injurya lot of wrongful death.
So in all those aspectsis about helping people
very good That's what I like to haveAnd guests on my show or people who
are rich they get up every day Tomake the world a better place to
help as many people as they can.
So I very much appreciate you being
here Thank you.
(06:02):
Thank you.
All right, so you and I uh have ashared common interest and that is
a the Flock camera that has recentlybecome kind of prevalent over the
last few years, but a Flock camera isjust a Automatic license plate reader.
So kind of explain to us what thatis and why it's used by police.
(06:24):
Well, to start out, I think that whatfascinated me before even getting
into the Flock cameras was the tagreaders that were used by repo drivers.
I don't know if you ever heard of that,but repo drivers actually were the first
ones to start using those tag readers.
And, um, the way that they worked thesystem was that they would have the
camera on their vehicles and literallythey would hire people to just drive
(06:49):
around randomly, just capturing images.
And so that's how they build upthe database in order for them to
kind of utilize this technologyon reading tags and finding tags.
So, you know, I heard a call oneday years ago from a client who
indicated to me that she had gottenarrested for getting in a fight.
At a Kroger and she got in a fightwith the repo gentlemen because she
(07:13):
was in the store and um, Her husbandwas outside and the vehicle was tagged
I guess picked up by the repo guybecause she had done a title pawn on the
vehicle And so the title pawn companyhad we pulled the vehicle and so as a
result of that They were stopped andshe didn't know that you could do that.
And so that's how I learnedabout these tag readers that can
(07:35):
instantly pick up these tags.
And as long as the information is inthe database, the criteria is put in
the database about the particular tag.
The, the um, the reader willactually like pick it up.
So like for instance, if I know thatI'm looking for a vehicle that has this
tag number, this car, make, model andcolor, I can put that in the database.
And so that computer will just ridearound or the camera will just ride around
(07:59):
and as soon as it hits, It'll alert therepo guy that the vehicle is right here.
And so that fascinated me.
And so as we move forward in lifeYears past, and I'm assuming that that
technology has been, that is evolvedinto what we have now, which are the
clock cameras, which are everywhere.
So now this is a stationary camera thatis placed randomly in a community, um,
(08:22):
and they're placed by private entitiesand they're placed by government entities
and they just basically pick up tags.
That's what they used to do.
Now they're, they're, they're moreenhanced and they're picking up more than
tags now, but it's, it's amazing to me howlaw enforcement has now, um, developed.
A, um, procedure, a standard operatingprocedure of implementing those Flock
(08:45):
cameras in their investigations andhow they transact, um, business as
relates to crime solving and, um,just getting gathering information on
people that may be under investigation.
So it's, it's, um, it'sbig brother at his finest.
Big brother at its finest.
Yeah, it sounds like it.
So what sort of, you know, youtalked about obviously they're
(09:07):
getting the license plate.
What other informationare these cameras pulling?
So these cameras arenow able to pull images.
Of the individuals that are in the car,sometimes it may not be able to capture
a full, um, um, image of the person'sfeatures, but it may be able to tell that
there's more than one person in the car.
(09:27):
Sometimes it does capture your features.
You have to look at it like this.
How many people that you know, have gonethrough a yellow light, that's maybe just
now turning red, and they get a ticketweeks later, and the ticket, when they
dispute it, the ticket shows their face.
You know, that happened to me.
I just viewed it a ticket and theysent me immediately me driving through
(09:52):
the red light with a smile on my face.
Like you got to think about thatkind of technology is now being
used in these Flock cameras.
So there's that information thatthe Flock cameras are picking up.
They're also picking up informationabout the vehicle itself.
Um, it could have a sticker in the,in the windshield or sticker in the
(10:12):
back of the vehicle, um, dense, anykind of identifying I, um, markers
on the vehicle are going to be ableto be placed in the Flock camera
system to pick up, uh, these vehicles.
So it's just not tagging more.
Right.
So, you know, playingdevil's advocate here.
(10:32):
Um, so like, let's say you have apolitical party sticker on the back
of your car, they could sort all ofthe information, you know, based on
the same political party sticker on itand people who have similar of it and
kind of almost build a database of whosupports what party in a community.
Uh, look, I don't know thatspecifically, but I do know this.
(10:52):
They're able to identify a particularsticker on the vehicle, the location of a
sticker on the vehicle, and you know, likeyou said, Plains Devil's Advocate, like,
what are the limitations to, to that?
What are the limitations on yousaying, I'm looking for a red and
black sticker, um, that has thisimage on it, and I want to see the
tags associated with that sticker?
(11:15):
While I don't have personal,um, personal experience.
Through my business and identifyingthat that's what that's used for.
I can only assume that if you're ableto identify a particular sticker and a
location of the sticker, that you couldtake that information and go wild with it.
I mean, there's nothing, there's nothinglimiting what the flop camera system,
(11:37):
um, capabilities are at this point,because like I said, initially we
thought that it was just reading a tab.
We now know that that's not the case.
It's more than just reading a tag, youknow, one of the cases that I had where
we realized the, um, the ability of thefog camera was when it comes down to
these, um, vehicles that are being stolen,like, you know, your popular vehicles
(11:59):
that are being so the Hellcat, like Ihad a client that told me that he just
kept being stopped by police officers indifferent jurisdictions, and he didn't
understand and then and then caughthis attention was he was stopped In one
jurisdiction and they made a commentabout something that he said in another
(12:21):
jurisdiction and that kind of, you know,made him think and when he told me that
I said, well, how would they know that?
And when we found out was that hisvehicle was in a database, not the
vehicle itself, but the fact that hehad a Hellcat that had an out of state
license plate, there was a criteriarun in one jurisdiction, picking up all
(12:44):
those vehicles that met that description.
And when he was stopped, theygot his vehicle identification
number off of his windshield.
And you, you're, you're saying yousaid, well, how do you do that?
Well, when the officer's talking to you,they're able to get all that information.
And so they put thatinformation in the database.
So that's what caused him to keeppopping up along with his license plate.
(13:06):
And so the notation was, we need tofigure out how we can get the vehicle
identification number from somewhere elsein the vehicle, except for instead of just
on the, um, on the, um, windshield, youknow, you know, in the dashboard area.
Right, right.
Yeah.
Right there in the front.
That's what caused me to realize.
Wait a minute.
Now, how are you, how arethey getting this information?
And why is it, how are theycommunicating with one another?
(13:29):
The way they're communicating withone another when you're not a suspect
of anything and that's when we delvemore into the Flock cameras and
we started the Flock camera seriesbecause people needed to know like
you can be an innocent person.
It just has happened to have one of thesevehicles and you're going to be targeted
because you have one of these vehicles.
So,
right.
And then we went from there to, to,you know, them tracking individuals
(13:51):
that maybe vanished from a county andputting their license plate in to see
where they're, where they've traveled.
Why are you doing that?
You want to see if they're in thecounty, but Now, you don't even have to
have a witness that says that they'rein the county, that a Flock camera
can pick up your tag and show thatyou're where you're not supposed to be.
Right.
(14:11):
So, you know, there are people whosay, okay, the Flock camera provides
an important service because theycould potentially find a stolen vehicle
or somebody who has been kidnappedand this vehicle has been reported.
And I think that's all well and good.
That's, that's good policing.
But then on the other side, uh,we have Well, you know, normal
citizens are being surveilled atthe same way that criminals are.
(14:33):
Where does, where does the FourthAmendment fit into this and this new
system that we find ourselves in?
Well, I can tell you what I've researched.
Um, I understand that concern.
Um, the concern is how far arethey allowed to take it without
having some type of oversight?
(14:54):
And as it stands right now, there,there has not been any successful
challenge to the, um, FourthAmendment, you know, um, rights that
we have as relates to plot cameras.
And the reason that is because you don'thave a right to privacy to your tag.
And remember,
right,
the purpose of the plotcamera is to pick up the tag.
(15:17):
Um, you don't have a right to privacyon a sticker that's on your vehicle.
You don't have a right toprivacy on anything that is open
and obvious, On the vehicle.
You don't have a right to privacy.
You don't have a right to privacy to thecolor of the vehicle that you're driving.
You have a right to privacy tomake a model of vehicle because
there's no right to privacy.
There is no Fourth Amendment violation.
(15:40):
Now, are there violations?
We would have to assume yes, ifyou are tracking individuals, um,
without any justification for whyyou're tracking the individuals.
Sure.
Does that happen?
I would have to assume that it does.
But the bottom line ishow do we prove that?
You don't prove that unless you are ina case that has Resulted from that type
(16:05):
of surveillance and you're able to trackback that investigation to the illegal use
of Flock cameras and then you're able toproceed forward with a motion to suppress
that information because it was done.
You know, illegally or unlawfully.
So, so to kind of bring this home forfolks, when you are in public, you
have no right to privacy and the courtshave upheld that for a very long time.
(16:29):
Um, and, and while that may make us feeluncomfortable that any, I was actually
talking to my 12 year old son thismorning and I said that I was talking
to you on my podcast today and I waslike, you know, talking about flat
cameras and he's like, well, don't peopleneed permission to take your picture?
And I was like, well, andthat's what we teach kids.
That's what we teach kids now.
And so it was kind of hard toexplain to him, like, no way.
(16:51):
Cause if you're in public, youreally don't have a right to privacy,
which was kind of confusing to him.
And when I said it all out loud, itkind of sounded confusing to me too.
We did.
Let's think, let's, you know, comparethat to facial recognition software.
Like when you're out and about,you know, you're, you're.
You don't even know how manytimes you engage, um, that type of
(17:15):
software in your day to day routine.
And so, is there a constitutionalviolation for there to be face
recognition software that picksup your image and, you know, Runs
any kind of, you know, backgroundcheck or whatever the case may be as
relates to the image that they found.
Typically, my understanding is if theycatch your image, they're only able
(17:37):
to compare that image to an image thatthey have stored in the system, like
a bolo or something to that effect.
I mean, are there opportunities to.
Go beyond that, I would assume so,but we, we, we're not the way that we
used to be back in, you know, the timewhere computers and technology, you
(17:57):
know, wasn't taking over everything.
You know, we're not going, we'renot talking about using a Polaroid
camera to take an image anymore.
That's not right.
And waiting for it to come outand then we're not doing that.
So as technology evolves,um, as you know, AI evolves.
(18:18):
I would assume that therewould be challenges to Fourth
Amendment constitutional rights.
However,
with the evolution of technology,the way that it is, it makes
it, it makes it very difficult.
And you know, there are always exceptionsthat are in favor of the government when
it comes down to Fourth Amendment issues.
(18:39):
So one of the exceptions is like, likewe already know if it's open and obvious.
Is in plain view if it's inplain view then, you know, you
there's no there's no issue there,
right?
And and also to your point that you'remaking a moment ago The license plate
that you have on your car belongs tothe government technically it does
not belong to you You pay a fee for itand they require you to put it on your
(19:03):
car So it's it's government propertythat is on your personal property.
Do I have that right?
I'm not sure of that, butI can tell you this much.
It really doesn't matter who owns it.
The bottom line is, is openand obvious is in plain view.
Okay.
That's, that's, that's themain thing is in plain view.
You, you, by law, you have to haveyour tag in plain view by law.
(19:24):
You cannot have your tag.
Uh, in any way covered, you can'talter the tag, you know, to, to
speak to what you just asked.
I mean, that could be an argument thatit is government property because you
get, if it's yours, you should be ableto do it, excuse me, you should be
able to do what you want to do with it,you know, but if you are, if you alter
that tag in any way, that's a crime.
Gotcha.
(19:47):
If you, if you hide the tagin any way, that's a crime.
So I need to go wash all the white out offthe back of my license plate right now.
That's what you're telling me.
Let me tell you something.
Do you know that that's that criminalslike literally have a level of genius
that some of us can't even understand.
They now have an ability to put a,uh, film or to put pieces on the
(20:13):
back of their tags so you can'tpick them up on Flock cameras.
There's a way to, there's a way to maskthat, and so you would think that that
would help you, but again, when you havecharacteristics on your vehicle that
stand out, then that also, you know,it doesn't help that you took the tag
off, or that you altered the tag, ordid something to the tag, because the
(20:34):
bottom line is, they're still going tobe able to find your vehicle, and, and,
and I've had that instance happen wherean individual thought that by taking
the tag off of their vehicle, theywould not be, they would not be found.
They Okay.
And that did not work.
Interesting.
It didn't work at all.
Interesting.
Yeah.
You know, I'm always fascinated atthe ingenuity that some criminals
exhibit to try to get aroundsomething or to steal or whatever.
(20:59):
And I think, man, that is such, youknow, a great sign of intelligence.
I just wish you could dosomething legal with it.
I'm sure, I'm sure youhear that all the time.
Yes.
Yes.
Definitely.
Okay.
So we're talking about data collection.
In essence here, like, they'recollecting all this data on our cars.
Like, when we go to a website, wecan sometimes opt out of this data.
(21:21):
Can we, as individual citizens, optout of a license plate reader company?
Is that something that we can do?
I'm not sure you can do thatbecause again, the license
plate is out in plain view.
And so you, with a, with a licenseplate reader, what they're doing is,
(21:44):
my name is Stephanie, Itransact business with you.
And I just give you anexample for the title pawn.
I am giving you my title to pawn.
When I give you my titleto pawn, you have my make.
My model, my year, mycolor, my tag number.
(22:06):
Those are the five things thatyou have and you have my name.
And so because you have thatinformation and, and, and I'm giving
it to you, that information isgoing to be placed in a database.
So that in the future, if youdecide that you're not going to
pay, I'm able to find that vehicle.
So think about it from this standpoint.
(22:28):
If you are seeking a service fromsomeone that you need, you, you
basically are signing away so manyrights when you do that, that is
impossible for you to later on say, Idon't want every, every, every company
that's out there that has a database.
of collecting tags.
I don't, I don't wantmy information in it.
(22:48):
That's not going to happen because yousigned over certain rights when you
engage the business with the person thatyou You know, are trying to not pay.
Do you follow me?
Yes.
So
it's hard.
It's hard to use that principle of, youknow what, this is a privacy issue and
I want to opt out and I have a right toopt out because the person is not using
(23:11):
the information for, um, financial gain.
They're using the informationfor the purpose of.
Making sure that theircollateral is protected.
Right.
And their
rights are protectedas it relates to that.
Right.
And so, and you, youmake a great point here.
Because I have doneresearch on Flock cameras.
They, Flock in particular, and there'sdifferent brands that make these cameras.
(23:35):
Motorola is another one.
Um, but specifically with Flock,they are not selling your data.
They're not selling anyof that sort of stuff.
It really just goes strictlyto like police, uh, databases
and that sort of thing.
So that is at least.
One thing, you know, in theirfavor that they're not selling
this data without our consent.
They're not doing that.
(23:56):
And the neighborhoods now, they'renow, it started out focused on
subdivisions that just wanted tohave another measure of surveillance
to deter crime in their community.
And it, it, it just evolved somuch into now the government
(24:16):
can lease Flock campers.
And that, that's another layer of issuesthat you have when you see a block
camera and, um, and, and ironically, Istarted the series and probably a week
after I started the series, the series,I got a call from an individual from
local law enforcement, let me know, um,that because of my, they, they, they
(24:37):
believed, and they were joking whenthey said it, but it was true because
of me talking about the block camera somuch, someone had come in the community
and had destroyed a block camera.
Oh, all right.
And, and I was like, well, that's notsmart because they can capture you
destroying the Flock camera becausethey're going to capture your image.
(24:59):
Because even though you're not avehicle, you walked up to the camera.
And so as a result of that, younow on image for the Flock camera.
One of the things that I, um, apositive thing for Flock camera is this.
I, I was talking to one of my friendsand they had indicated to me that
someone had dumped, I know everybodydeals with this, people that do illegal
(25:20):
dumping in your community, right?
Mm-hmm . And they had dumped on oneof the main roads in our community.
They had dumped a sofa.
And chair.
I was like, this is thecraziest thing ever.
And as we were talking, they madea comment about the Flock camera
being close to where they dumped it.
And I said, well, maybe Flockcameras can be used for that as well.
(25:43):
Because if you are on a Flock cameraand you're driving a truck because
you know that the sofa and the chairis not going to fit in the car.
You're driving a truck.
You may be able to identifywho the person was that was
transporting it and, um, dumped it.
And so, you said earlier, there's somany positive things that the Flock
Camera can be used for, and it is.
(26:05):
You know, we had a murder in our communitythat was solved because of a Flock Camera.
Okay.
So, the things, like, kidnappings.
Um, there's a show that used tobe on Hear No Evil, See No Evil.
Mm hmm.
It used to be on Identity.
And what they would do is they wouldjust If somebody was missing or something
happened to someone, they would trackall the cameras that that person had.
(26:29):
Um, came in contact with and justthe track, keep tracking their
movements through the cameras.
Same thing with block with the vehicles.
You know, we have crimes that are solvedbecause you may have a vehicle that's
picked up near a crime scene and youtrack that vehicle everywhere that that
vehicle is gone and it sets a patternthat that may be the suspect that you are
(26:50):
looking for for a crime that occurred.
So it's a lot of positive thingsthat block camera can be used for.
You just have to set Parametersso there's not misuse.
Right, right.
And we'll, we'll talk about, Iwant to ask your opinion on those
parameters here in just a few minutes.
Um, but I think about three weeksago, uh, Motorola, uh, faced privacy
(27:15):
issues due to the fact that they haddata leaks, uh, on their websites.
And what was happening was car detailsand images were not properly secured.
And so, and I use the phrase hackerlike loosely, it was somebody who just
realized, oh, wait a minute, if I plugthis information in, I can get all of
(27:36):
the data off of this Motorola licenseplate reader camera, and then all of a
sudden I'll Somebody who is unauthorizedhas access to this information.
So with the data that's like beingcollected with these cameras,
how strictly does this stuff needto be safeguarded against from
it falling into the wrong hands?
(27:59):
Well, I would say that with with anycollection of data, um, if you're
going to be the catalyst for that typeof industry, then you need to know
that there are people that are goingto be ready to challenge your ability
to use those items, especially ifyou are a person that likes privacy.
(28:23):
And so the first challenge would bewhether or not the actual company has
employed measures To secure that data,because while that information may not
have a financial interest to the companythat's collecting it, if it is breached,
then it could be a financial repercussionthat the individual can suffer as a result
(28:47):
of you not properly securing my data.
So, I think that that starts the dialogueof what are the proper parameters
to regulate that particular market.
And that's a conversation that needsto be had because, you know, excluding
what we're going, what's going onright now with, with data collection
(29:07):
and individuals that should nothave, um, access to certain data.
The bottom line is you have individualsthat have, um, malfeasance on their heart.
They, they, they don't have goodintentions for your information.
And so they're going to figure outa way that they can capitalize on
(29:28):
getting this information, especiallywhen you don't put in place, um, I
guess, mechanisms or measures to kindof deter from breaches happening.
Like think about, think about all thelosses that have happened in the past.
Where these companies, they were, theywere proud of the fact that they were
able to collect all this data on youand they would sell your information
(29:50):
to other companies that needed, youknow, information about mothers that,
you know, are single mothers or, orindividuals that are in a particular
demographics in a particular region.
They're selling all this information.
And so now, you know, you got, Okay.
All this data about vehicles, allthis data about individuals and, um,
(30:11):
their, their loan frequencies, youknow, because most of these, most
of these things started out withtitle pawn companies using this data.
And so you got all this informationon people and you're not putting
in any kind of measure to makesure that that information is safe.
I mean, I know that I know that peoplefeel like we're in a litigious world,
(30:31):
but that's how you fight, you know,your privacy issues right there.
Sometimes the privacy issue isnot fought on privacy grounds.
Sometimes your privacy issues are foughton financial grounds because you messed
up, leaked my information, and as aresult, somebody has stolen my identity,
pretended that they own this vehicle,um, that I own, and, you know, here
(30:52):
we are, I have now these individualsthat have, um, loans in my name.
Just to give you an example, when you gothrough your credit, um, clearances, like
when you apply for something and theyask you all these questions about, um,
they may ask you a question like, whatvehicle did you own, uh, in, in 2000?
(31:14):
Um, who was your loan?
Um, who's your lender onthis particular vehicle?
That's information thatoverlaps into these databases.
Mm hmm.
Okay.
And so if they can get information onStephanie, and they may have, this is
her name, this is where she used to live10 years ago, this is where she used to
(31:35):
live, but they don't have my informationon a vehicle, but they're able to get
my information on a vehicle as a resultof your sloppiness and your inability to
secure my data, then they have a wholepicture of who I am, and if that question
is being asked, They're able to providean accurate response to that question.
Right.
Right.
Sometimes your best arguments are notnecessarily arguments regarding privacy.
(31:58):
Sometimes you can argue those issuesand be able to get, you know, what
you're trying to get accomplished.
That you would not have gottenaccomplished if you challenged
things by the Fourth Amendment.
Right.
Okay.
So, Flock cameras and Motorola camerasand all these, you know, ALPR cameras,
they are holding and retaining the data.
(32:19):
But, they are also purging them.
But, it seems to be, in the research thatI've done, it's kind of up to the company,
where and when they want to do it.
And then it's kind of up to locallaw enforcement to say, Oh, wait,
we need to hold on to this one fora little while, and they can kind
of flag it to keep it for longer.
Um, you know, if you could write a lawabout, you know, ALPR cameras in the
(32:45):
state of Georgia, what sort of, like,data retention would you put into it?
What sort of, I don'tknow, even public notice?
Like, what, what would Stephanie's law be?
To help one police and also to privacyadvocates when it comes to these cameras.
Well, for one thing, I think thatthere needs to be education, um,
(33:07):
to the individuals that, you know,definitely are going to interact
with this particular camera.
I think that there should bea notice placed in the paper.
Um, you know how they have legalnotices when you know that there's
a camera that's going to becoming to a particular community.
You need to put that notice in a newspaperof that community to let people know
that there's going to be a Flock camerathat's installed in the community
(33:28):
and where it's going to be installed.
Now, I know that there'll be peoplethat'll say, well, you know what,
why would we want to do that?
Because, you know, this is, thisis, this is primarily for criminals.
This is primarily for criminals.
You know, depending on who you are,depending on how much stink you make,
everybody is one step away from beingidentified by law enforcement as,
I mean, that's the reality of it.
(33:50):
And so I think that it's important for usto have full transparency, especially when
the government, they're the ones that areleasing it because you don't have to be a
government entity to lease a block camp.
You could be a neighborhood,but they'll be able to use it.
And so I think that that's a start.
With, um, with writing legislation thataddresses privacy issues with, with, um,
(34:14):
flat camera as relates to anything else.
It's such a complex area and peopledon't realize how complex it is.
When you talk about the informationthat can be gathered in this, um, if I
say, you know what, let's go ahead andpurge the information after a year, but
then there's something that happened.
(34:34):
You know, two years ago, and thiswould have been, you know, great for
us to be able to utilize the technologyto find out what the information was
during that time period and how we canmove forward with our investigation,
then that information is lost.
It's hard to tell a parent of a childthat has been abducted or a child that
(34:56):
has, um, you know, unfortunately hasmet, you know, unfortunate circumstances.
Um, I purge, we purge the information sowe can't get that information for you.
You know, you keep everything elseforever, but you couldn't keep
this information for four years.
So just in case it was needed, youknow, later on, we would have it.
(35:17):
So it's so complex.
I mean, I've never really even givenit a lot of thought because the
concern right now is just educatingthe people on what they are.
I mean, some people don'teven know what they were.
They, they, I mentioned it.
I said, I'm gonna post somepictures of what they are.
And I posted the pictures and I hadeverybody that's in my neighborhood.
(35:42):
There's
several of them.
They had no clue.
If you, my dad used to raise us where,when we, he only did this to the
girls, he didn't do these to the boys.
We had to learn, um, um, as we droveto pay attention to different things.
And my dad was in law enforcement.
So he would always have us driveand then ask us questions about what
(36:04):
we saw or what the street name was.
As you know, he would, he, you wouldbe a street name 2020 paces back.
And he'll ask you, well,what was that street name?
You know, a mile back?
And you're like, what?
And, but you, you could notdrive or get your license until
you master this, the girls.
Okay.
Uhhuh.
. So what that did was that, that allowedme to learn how to pay attention to my
(36:26):
surrounding when I Dr. When I drive.
And so when I started seeingthese things, I was like, what
in the world are those things?
You know?
I mean like they, becausethey don't look like cameras.
Mm-hmm . And I thought thatthey were solar panels.
Right.
Right.
But there were mini
solar panels to help, uh, I guess,um, you know, provide energy to
certain things that were underground.
That's what I thoughtthere were initially.
Sure.
And then later on I realized itwas, there were, there were cameras.
(36:49):
Right.
Yeah, they look like, um, they looklike little bird houses on a pole with
a little slanted, uh, solar panel on it.
And if you go to pretty much any Lowe'sHome Improvement store, you will see
them in their parking lot becausethey are tracking all of the cars that
are coming in and out of their lot.
Even if you don't have businessin Lowe's, you're just driving
through, the flat cameras there aregonna pick up your license plate.
(37:15):
So that's, uh, that's, that's crazy.
And you, you didn't ask for that!
You just want to go in there and get youritems from Lowe's, you want to get some
plants, you want to get some fertilizer,you want to get, you know, some equipment.
You didn't ask for all your informationabout your vehicle to be blasted
all over the United States becauseeverybody is going to have it.
(37:37):
Right.
Yeah, and that's the hard thing.
Okay, so we've talked about Flockcameras, you know, I felt like you've
done a great job in educating us inwhat's good about them and what's bad.
For anybody who's just learningabout this, what tips do you have
for them just to be able to navigatethis subject and still try to
maintain some level of privacy?
(38:00):
You know, what I've been tellingpeople is Don't do crime because that
that's the thing you there's nothingthat you can do to get around a
Flock camera There's you can't there.
There's no way that you can drive down thestreet see a plot camera and say I'm not I
refuse to You know adhere to this Invasiveintrusion on my rights and I'm gonna stop
(38:23):
and I'm not gonna go this way I'm gonnaturn around and go another way because
there's gonna be one wherever you go.
There's a plot camera.
You cannot miss it Youknow, that's all I can say.
It's just that if you are a homeownersassociation and you're interested in
getting a Flock camera, I would suggestthat you really educate your homeowners
on what that entails, because whileit would all it would be great for
(38:48):
the neighborhood to monitor activitygoing in and out of the neighborhood.
At the same time, you need to advisethem that this is a permissible
invasion of your privacy.
Right, yeah, because a lot of peopleare like, Oh, that sounds great, because
we'll catch criminals coming in and out.
But it's also gonna tagyou going in and out.
Maybe you're going inand out at odd hours.
(39:08):
Maybe some car is driving to yourhouse that you don't want to have
to explain to everybody else.
Because it's your own private business.
But that sort of stuff is getting loggedby these cameras that are owned by HOAs.
Well, and you know what?
The crazy thing is, um, when we firststarted talking about this, I said, you
know, we don't realize that when we,when we first learn about a product or
(39:33):
a type of technology, we learn it theway it is and the way it's intended.
Over time, the purpose and the use.
Changes.
And so while now is being used asan investigative tool for criminal
activity, there may be a timewill it be, it will be used as an
(39:54):
investigative tool for civil activity.
For instance, if you are married andyou're getting a divorce and in the
divorce action, you're trying to provecertain things in the divorce action,
there may be a time where you willbe able to utilize a flat camera by.
Providing a tag number, make amodel of your spouse's vehicle, and
(40:18):
asking the company to provide theactivities of where that vehicle has
gone over a certain period of time.
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
And that's not what peoplethink about at first.
They don't think about that at first.
They're thinking, oh yeah, you know,we want the criminals to be caught.
We want this.
We want that.
Yeah.
But you, but then when you're thesubject of it, then you, then,
(40:40):
then you worry about your rights.
That's right.
That's what always amazes me.
You don't, you don'tthink about your rights.
You thinking about, look, we'regoing to get these criminals.
You're not, your, your rights are notin the fourth, you know, front of your
thoughts because you're saying, I said,well, I'm not doing anything wrong.
Cause that's the first thingpeople say on social media.
I don't have anything to worry about.
I'm not doing anything wrong.
Well, you have everything to worryabout because if you're the target of
(41:02):
whatever it is, then, and you're not doinganything wrong, but you're just a target.
You don't know what extent thatthey will go through to make sure
that they can establish what they'rewanting to establish about you.
So, it's something to think about.
Right now, it's criminal investigation.
Later on, it may be civil.
It may be civil now,we just don't know it.
True.
We don't know.
(41:23):
Yeah, I mean, this is justthe very beginning of 2025.
Who knows what things are goingto look like in 10 months.
We don't.
We don't.
I mean, look, I'll be the firstone to tell you, I learned about AI
three years ago at a law convention.
Right.
And, you know, when they were talkingabout AI, they were saying that there
is a particular, um, um, softwarethat will allow you to enter and draft
(41:49):
up a brief and draft up documentsfrom the standpoint of an attorney.
I was like, no way.
And so in one of those areas,they were looking at a law change
to not make it where you have topass a bar to become an attorney.
Like you didn't have to take the barexam to become an attorney because
this technology was available tohelp facilitate some of the legal
(42:11):
things that you needed to do.
And I was like, yeah, right.
Look at how many lawyersnow are using chat GPT
law.
Yeah.
Look at how many
non lawyers are using it.
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's, uh, we're, we're findingout new stuff every day.
So what I've, what I've learnedfrom, from you today, Stephanie,
is that, um, don't commit crime.
(42:35):
I need to back into my parkingplace, uh, from now on so that, um,
somebody doesn't get my tag that way.
That doesn't help.
I had a client that did that.
Really?
It did not help.
He backed into these placesso you couldn't get his tag.
He took his tag off in someplaces and they still were able
(42:57):
to track him because of a sticker.
Oh my goodness.
Because of a sticker on his vehicleand the fact that he had an accident
and the accident showed the damagethat he had from the accident was on
the vehicle and they put that into thecriteria and they were able to track him.
Good.
And I wish I could go into moredetail on how they actually.
(43:18):
Went through step by stepto track him, but they went
step by step and tracked him.
And when we had the case, we wereable to obtain all this information.
And I sat there and I looked at this andI was like, you have got to be kidding me.
It was, it was amazing because There wasnothing that would identify him at all.
(43:41):
Wow.
Wow.
Well, Stephanie, I have learned alot from you today from, you know,
the folks who were listening here.
They want to find out more about youand the series that you were doing
on Flock Cameras on social media.
Where can they find you online?
Um, Attorney Stephanie.
So it's at Attorney Stephanie on TikTokand at Attorney Stephanie on Instagram.
(44:04):
And our YouTube page, um, atattorney Stephanie, do you, I think
that is, um, it's set up wherethe Flock camera series is in one.
Location so you can pick up all the slotcamera information and is the same way
organized on TikTok and Instagram but isa great series for you to look at because
We started in the early stages and as wewent along we still had people that were
(44:28):
contacting us asking us questions aboutblack cameras Ironically, we had attorneys
contacting us asking about black camerasLaw enforcement was very engaged because
I got I got calls from law enforcement.
I you know, I have a lot of Peoplein law enforcement that I consider
to be friends and close to, and theywould tell me this is what's going on.
And this is what happened.
(44:48):
And you're not going to believe this.
And that's how I'm learning so much aboutit from the other, the other aspect of it.
Yeah, well, that's amazing.
So Stephanie, thank you somuch for your time today.
I appreciate you.
I appreciate that you were tryingto educate us and you were trying to
make your community a better place.
God bless you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
And thank you Andy for having meand giving me an opportunity to
(45:09):
talk more about Flock cameras.
They're everywhere.
They are every where.
Well, this wraps up this episodeof The Secure Family Podcast.
Thank you, friend, for listening.
Thanks again to Stephaniefor being on the show.
For more from her, visitTheLindseyLawFirm.com.
(45:29):
Take back your privacy and personaldata with help from DeleteMe.
Get 20 percent off a privacy planwhen using the code DAD at checkout.
DeleteMe is the official dataremoval service of The Secure Dad.
Keep your kids safe whilegaming with my eBook, Level Up.
It's available exclusivelyat TheSecureDad.com.
There's a link for youin today's show notes.
(45:51):
If you'd like to know moreabout The Secure Dad, join
me on Instagram and TikTok.
My username for bothplatforms is The Secure Dad
.And of course, my website is available to you 24 7 at TheSecureDad.com.
I'm Andy Murphy reminding you to beaware of your surroundings, and you'll
start to notice cameras in placesthat you never thought they'd be.
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