Spin sucks, The PESO Model is the answer, and AI can help - with Gini Dietrich

Walk into any PR conference these days, and it's all but guaranteed that you'll see a session or two about how communicators can effect real business impact. Panelists and speakers talk about how we can earn a seat at the table (even though we often have one) and get taken more seriously as business partners by "aligning with the business strategy" and "bringing measurement discipline" to "demonstrate the ROI of Communications." But then you (some of you) go back to your office, and the very executives you're trying to partner with ask you to "make this sound better" or "add some positivity" or--even worse--"can you spin this?" Spin, the bane of PR and the root cause of so much distrust, still infects our profession. But if you're an ethical communicator with the right set of tools, you'll confidently stand firm when you decline to "spin" and instead communicate with integrity and transparency. In this episode of The Trending Communicator, host Dan Nestle sits down with agency CEO, prolific writer, in-demand speaker, and overall PR powerhouse Gini Dietrich. The author of Spin Sucks: Communication and Reputation Management in the Digital Age, founder of the Spin Sucks blog and community, and creator of the influential PESO Model, Gini has been a trailblazer in the communications profession and an advocate for transparent and ethical communication practices, and done more than most in steering the industry away from the damaging concept of "spin." Dan and Gini discuss the critical role of the PESO Model in strategic communications, breaking down its components—Paid, Earned, Shared, and Owned media—and how they integrate to create measurable, impactful results. Gini shares her insights on the importance of building trust and authority in a post-truth world, where misinformation and disinformation are rampant. They also dig into how AI will become even more central to the communications field. Gini reveals how AI tools are enhancing productivity, offering new ways to manage content creation, data analysis, and strategic planning. From leveraging AI for content development to using it as a virtual assistant, Gini provides practical examples of how technology is reshaping the way communicators work. Whether you're a seasoned PR professional or new to the field, this episode offers valuable lessons on ethical communication, the significance of the PESO Model, and the integration of AI into modern PR practices. Tune in to learn how you can navigate the challenges of today's media environment and build a more authentic and trustworthy communication strategy. Listen in and hear about... The damaging impact of "spin" on the PR industry's reputation and the push for ethical communications How the PESO Model integrates paid, earned, shared, and owned media for strategic communications How media relations is evolving (or devolving) in a world where traditional media trust is declining The importance of building owned content and community to maintain control over brand messaging AI's role in enhancing productivity and efficiency across all aspects of the PESO Modeal The shift towards earning attention rather than just media hits in today's fragmented media environment   Notable Quotes On Navigating Post-Truth America: “It's funny you say that because I think we're in a world now where we live in what has been dubbed the post truth America, which sucks in and of itself. But as communicators, we have to kind of figure out how to navigate that. And part of that is you can't spin, you can't lie, you can't be unethical, you have to be extraordinarily transparent and authentic.” — Gini Dietrich [00:03:37 → 00:04:00] On Misinformation: “It's interesting how there's been such a upswell in discussions of misinformation, disinformation, mal information, information, any of the informations. So much so that, you know, I firmly believe that even the term misinformation is a kind of misinformation.” — Dan Nestle [00:04:38 → 00:

Episode Transcript

Dan Nestle (00:00):
Welcome or welcome back to the trending
Communicator. I'm your host, Dan Nestle. You
know, not too long ago, I was at one of those
executive team meetings that so many of us dread.
The kind where we had to make some hard

(00:20):
decisions. One of those course correction trade
offs, everyone do their part meetings where you
know going into it that when all is said and
done, people, friends, teammates, direct reports
are going to lose their jobs. And as the comms
guy, I knew it would fall on me and my team to
figure out how to deliver the bad news to our
employees. So when I chimed in and I asked a few

(00:42):
questions to help me formulate the messaging,
FAQs and such, one of the execs stopped me and
just said, can you spin this somehow? Of course,
I politely declined. And I talked about things
like ethics and transparency. Maybe I referred to
pigs and lipstick and turd polishing. And then I
went ahead and did my job properly. I bring this

(01:03):
up because that word spin has done incredible
damage to the reputation and perception of PR and
comms. And as much as we've moved on, clearly
some people never got the memo. Spin truly sucks.
And there are few people in our profession who
have done more to distance us from spin than my
guest today, the founder and creator behind

(01:25):
spinsucks.com a decade ago, in her book entitled
Spin Sucks, she laid out a manual for honest,
responsible and ethical communications and
introduced the PR world to my very favorite and
most indispensable tool for strategic
communications, the Peso Peso model. Since then,

(01:45):
she's expanded on the model, created peso courses
and resources to implement the model, and has
continued blogging on spinsucks.com, staying on
top of the developments in comms and marketing,
especially advances in technology and AI, and
evolving the model along the way. She's a
prolific public speaker, author of two books,
Undisputed PR Thought Leader, podcaster and CEO

(02:08):
of her own agency, Armit Dietrich. Get ready to
get into Peso AI and more with my friend and PR
legend Gini Dietrich. Wow.

Gini Dietrich (02:17):
It was quite the intro.

Dan Nestle (02:19):
Holy smokes.

Gini Dietrich (02:21):
Wow.

Dan Nestle (02:22):
Well, normally, you know, like I, I was just
thinking about it and we're going to be talking
about AI, we're going to talk about peso, we're
going to be talking about things that are really
germane to, you know, people are listening to the
show and interesting to people who aren't
necessarily PR professionals, but, you know,
maybe marketers, maybe people who are just
looking for different ways to consider their
program and to consider how they talk to people.

(02:45):
But when it comes down to it, you know, I thought
about this concept of spin and what you've done
to kind of dismiss it and to change the narrative
and how even the peso model, everything is a way
of combating that. You know, from a, from the
point of, from the perspective of communications

(03:06):
is a serious business. It's measurable, it's
strategic, you know, there's no need to even
think about spin, right. You don't have to make
shit up when you know that if you just have the
messaging right, and you have strategy right, and
you can right hit, hit your different channels,
understand, you paid your earned, you shared your

(03:26):
own, that's the peso. Then, you know, there's no
room for spin. But anyway, that whole thing
inspired me, but I figured, you know, I'd back
into it with little story. But it's good to see
you, Gini.

Gini Dietrich (03:37):
Good to see you too, Dan. Yeah. It's funny you
say that because I think we're in a world now
where we live in what has been dubbed the post
truth America, which sucks in and of itself. But
as communicators, we have to kind of figure out
how to navigate that. And part of that is you
can't spin, you can't lie, you can't be

(03:58):
unethical, you have to be extraordinarily
transparent and authentic. And we're having to
reach people where they are. You know, it used to
be that we could reach people at the 6 o'clock
news because everybody sat down, watched the
news, had their dinner and then went up about
their night. Nobody does that anymore, right. And
so you have all these disparate media bubbles
that we have to look at and people can spot the

(04:22):
spin, they can spot the lies, they can spot it.
You know, in this world of misinformation and mis
and mal and disinformation, it's all this stuff
that's going on around our world and we have, our
job is to maintain the trust and the authority
and the authenticity.

Dan Nestle (04:38):
Yeah, it's interesting how there's been such a
upswell in discussions of misinformation,
disinformation, mal information, information, any
of the informations. So much so that, you know, I
firmly believe that even the term misinformation
is a kind of misinformation. Sometimes, you know,
it's, it's just, you know, these are, these are

(05:00):
heavy, heavy handed tools. You know, language is
a heavy handed tool and when it's overused and
over deployed, we blunt the edges too much. And I
think that's sometimes the case with
misinformation. And it's almost like, you know,
the Boy who Cried Wolf, where we have so many
people crying misinformation. Misinformation.

(05:21):
Oftentimes they're absolutely right. It is
misinformation. It is, sure. You know, or worse,
disinformation.

Gini Dietrich (05:26):
Yep.

Dan Nestle (05:26):
But I think we. We have to really be much more
careful moving forward as a. As a profession,
certainly as a society, it's harder to do the
society thing, but at least as a profession in
being very kind of, you know, diligent about how
we're. What we're labeling things and who is the
arbiter of the truth, who is the arbiter of fact.

(05:48):
You know, there shouldn't be any arbiters of
fact, by the way. Facts are facts.

Gini Dietrich (05:51):
Correct. You know, but yes, unfortunately, that's
not the world we live in.

Dan Nestle (05:55):
Yeah, but if, you know. But if there's an
interpretation, then just, you know, there's
gotta be some way. Look, label it as such. I know
that's. That some people try. But, you know,
sometimes what has been decried as misinformation
is turned. Turns out to be totally true later. Or
what is said to be true turns out to be, like,
disinformation later. Like, it's just. It's just

(06:17):
a mess. So we need to really be able to not only
stand by what we say is misinformation or have
rationale for it, but if it turns out that we
were wrong, we have to come out and say we were
wrong.

Gini Dietrich (06:31):
Right?

Dan Nestle (06:32):
Right. Like, yes, that's the worst. When there's
like, some denial.

Gini Dietrich (06:38):
And It's Crisis Communications 101.

Dan Nestle (06:40):
Yeah. It's funny. You wrote about.

Gini Dietrich (06:41):
I bet you were wrong.

Dan Nestle (06:41):
You wrote about this today, didn't you? This was
like your blog post today was about
misinformation. Well, it was the one that was
published today.

Gini Dietrich (06:48):
I lose track. I lose track.

Dan Nestle (06:50):
That's the one that was published today, I think.
But, you know, because you are prolific and, you
know, you write all the time and I love your
writing style, by the way.

Gini Dietrich (06:59):
Thank you.

Dan Nestle (06:59):
I should say that. And then, you know, at the
end, we'll give all the links to people. But, I
mean, we wanted to talk about Peso and, you know,
we could start with misinformation stuff. Peso
model is like your, you know, it's not the one
size fits all for everything, you know, because
it's a strategic tool. But. But it can help

(07:21):
everybody, I think, combat all of these problems
and approach all these problems. So why don't we
kind of back up a little bit? And first of all,
you know, I introduce you. I think most, a lot of
people listening just know who you are, but, you
know, maybe quick top line, who is Gini? And
let's talk about Peso. So, you know, give us the

(07:43):
scoop.

Gini Dietrich (07:44):
I mean, you already did say who I am. So I run an
agency. I have all these Spin Sucks properties.
But yeah, I mean, you raised the point that the
Peso model was outlined and introduced 10 years
ago when Spin Sucks, the book was published. And
I'm working on the second edition right now,
which I'm very comfortable saying because I'm

(08:06):
almost halfway finished with it. So I can't wait
to actually say that I am working on it. And in
the first edition it was mentioned and it was
sort of, this is how I see the future going. But
it wasn't fully baked. And in the second edition
it will be very much. The book is led by Peso

(08:28):
because a couple of things. Number one is what I
have found is there's lots and lots and lots of
misconceptions. And part of that is my fault
because like I said, I published this book and it
wasn't fully baked. And also it was 10 years ago.
Right? So imagine, I mean, think about what has
changed in the last 10 years. Just a few things
in our careers. I mean, insane, what has changed

(08:49):
and going to change with AI. And so people tend
to look at Peso and go, oh, okay, well, I've got
some social media advertising, I'm doing some
media relations, I've got some blogging and we're
sharing it on LinkedIn and TikTok. So I've done
the Peso model. That's not it. It's not a list of
tactics. You can't just pull tactics from each

(09:10):
media type and call it the Peso model. It's
really about an integrated model that's
measurable and it's measurable to the things that
executives care about. I think our industry
overall tends to measure outcome or outputs
instead of outcomes. So we measure activities
instead of real, tangible results. And part of
that's because there isn't a uniform way for us

(09:31):
to do it like there are in the other industries
in our marketing and advertising, for instance.
But also it's. It's hard. It's hard to measure.
It's hard to say, well, we did this and it
translated to this because there's so many
different points on the customer journey, but we
have to do a better job of that. And the Peso

(09:52):
model When you integrate it correctly instead of
just using a list of tactics does help you do
that.

Dan Nestle (09:57):
Can you run through each of the elements of the
peso model for our listeners? You know, like,
there will be quite a few people who know it, but
many more who don't. And I think everybody needs
to. So if you can.

Gini Dietrich (10:09):
Yeah, yeah. Off with the P. It's ingrained,
ingrained right here. So paid is or P is paid.
And you know, we're not, we're not talking about
doing super bowl ads and billboards and things
like that. We're talking about what you and I
know as advertorials from when we began our
career. It's really good content that you might
pay to place or you've boosted it. It might be

(10:32):
your earned coverage that you're boosting on
social media or through Google Ads. It's the
white paper or the ebook that you created that
you are using ads to promote to get people to
download it. It's the webinar that you're using
ads to promote to get people to attend. So that's
the paid media I talk about. It's the kinds of
things that as communicators we can, for lack of

(10:54):
a better term, control. Then you have E, which is
earned. And you know, in the beginning, earned
media was very much media relations. It was
broadcast, it was trade, it was print,
newspapers, magazines. And today it has expanded.
I think it was in March, March or May, one of the
M months, the Axios came out and said there are

(11:15):
12 disparate media bubbles and you have to think
about where your audience is. So they might be on
TikTok, they might be watching the evening news,
they might still get the New York Times hard
copy, or they might be getting their news on
Facebook. Like you have to figure out where
they're getting it. They might be getting it from
right wing media, they might be getting it from

(11:36):
left wing media. You have to understand where
your audiences are and then go there. So it's
less about media relations and more about
influencers. It's really about the third party
credibility. So how could you gain third party
credibility? And in some cases that might be
reviews, it might be comments, it might be

(11:58):
community engagement, it's other people giving
you the credibility that you need. So you're
earning that trust, right? And then S is shared
and really shared is social media. It's
community, it's the private social. So you have
like discord, you have signal, you have slack,

(12:18):
you have teams. All of the places that you're.
You can distribute Blue sky threads, all the
places. And then owned is content. So content
really, from the perspective of you are creating
content that lives on something that you own. So
where people get. Get confused is they might have
a LinkedIn newsletter that's not owned content,

(12:38):
that's shared content because it's on LinkedIn.
If you have it on your website and then you're
repurposing it to LinkedIn that's owned because
you're using, you're renting it to LinkedIn. But
owned is the content that lives on something that
you have control over. So it's not renting it out
to the social media networks. And then when you
bring it all together, you have community, you

(12:59):
have pay for play, you have lead generation, you
have search engine optimization. And then you
have the ultimate experience, expertise,
authority and trust.

Dan Nestle (13:09):
Experience, expertise, authority, trust. Yep. And
that is eats, right?

Gini Dietrich (13:17):
That is eat Authority, trust. Or as I like to
say, eat.

Dan Nestle (13:23):
Eat. That is a big meal, you know.

Gini Dietrich (13:26):
Yeah, it is.

Dan Nestle (13:27):
And that's a newer addition to the bottle, the
eat.

Gini Dietrich (13:31):
It is. I can't remember when it's been probably
about a year that Google came out and said,
listen, with generative AI, we're going to serve
up content that demonstrates that you have your
experience and your expertise. So lots of people
are using AI to create content. My favorite thing

(13:51):
in the whole wide world is when I get my media
monitoring report and it's like so and so
mentioned spin sucks or has mentioned you. And I
go and I look and it's like in today's
challenging landscape, and you're like, oh, come
on, you can't even change the intro. Like,
everybody knows that's how AI starts.

Dan Nestle (14:10):
Let's delve into the world of.

Gini Dietrich (14:12):
Right.

Dan Nestle (14:14):
Well, I have instructed all of my AI to not use
the word delve. And it's only a short workaround
because it's only a matter of time before they
start saying explore too much and that becomes a
bad word. Right, Right. It's crazy. But this,
this is, it's so. So. Thank you for laying out
the model. Right. So patterns, everybody has a
different, you know, strip strategy, business

(14:38):
strategy that they have to support or different
executives they need to support. And. Yep. You
know, so when you look at the four, I don't know,
I'm going to call them quadrants, for lack of a
better word. But they're not really quadrants
because they're, they're connected and they're
overlapping. But it seems like, you know, there's

(14:58):
no, it's not to scale like in other Words like
the P can be really, really tiny sometimes. Yeah.
Where the E is really large. But it seems to me
also that the E is usually pretty big. So is
there, you know, is there a way to visualize that
or is it, you know, like what do you think in
general?

Gini Dietrich (15:16):
It depends. You know, one of the questions I get
is do you have to balance out budget and
resources for each media type? And the answer is
probably not. Yeah, it does depend on your goals.
Like we have one client that I would say owned is
probably 70%, paid is 20, shared is 15, and

(15:40):
earned is only 5. So it just depends. It depends
on what you're trying to achieve.

Dan Nestle (15:46):
Yeah.

Gini Dietrich (15:46):
And it will change too as you grow and as it
evolves and as your programs evolve, that will
change as well. You might put more into earned
and less into paid.

Dan Nestle (15:56):
You know, I've used it in so many ways over time
and you know, frankly, I was using it before I
knew what it was called and before I knew it
belonged to you. You know, because clearly some
folks have been marching around with variations
of the.

Gini Dietrich (16:10):
Peso model and there's one that's calling it
pose. I'm like, you can't do that.

Dan Nestle (16:18):
I've heard, I've, yeah, I've heard different
variations and you know, for our listeners
benefit and for our list and maybe as a warning,
if you use the peso model or any derivative
thereof, Jeannie owns that. Just remember that.

Gini Dietrich (16:31):
Yeah, I get a letter from my attorney.

Dan Nestle (16:32):
Get a letter. Rightly so, you know, because it's
a really interesting, it's a really incredible
piece of ip. You know, what I was going to say
though is I, you know, I find it very useful as a
validator, you know, almost sometimes after the
fact, once you're, you're running a comms team or
you're kind of looking at a, at a broad horizon

(16:54):
of, or all the different activities and different
kind of strategies that are available to you to
achieve the mission of your organization, your
client, whoever you're representing yourself,
then like lay the peso model over it and see what
you're missing.

Gini Dietrich (17:14):
You know, well done.

Dan Nestle (17:16):
It's kind of a, it's a, it's kind of a useful
thing, you know. Oh, have I done these different
things? And have I done these different things?
Oh, there's no. Am I, am I really down
downplaying shared here, you know. Yeah, but, you
know, but to that. Actually, now I mentioned
shared, I think some, some people might have
questions about, you know, the kind of difference

(17:37):
between like shared and earned in a Lot of ways,
it seems like once somebody shares something on
your behalf, does that now count as earned? Or
are you talking about shared as the platform
itself? By placing somebody, by placing something
in a shared media, a social media or, you know,

(17:57):
or a, you know, a discord or something like this,
where a messaging platform or something like
that, does that now become shared or both or all
of the above?

Gini Dietrich (18:11):
I mean, you could argue semantics for sure. And
if you wanted to count it as shared, you probably
could. I think it would probably get too unruly
to be able to do that because how many retweets
and reposts and things like that can you get?
Like, it could get really unruly. So if you think
about the outcome of each. So the outcome of, of

(18:34):
paid media is to grow your reach. The outcome of
earned is to earn that credibility, to get that
third party validation. The outcome of shared is
to distribute to existing audiences and build
community and engagement and brand ambassadors,
you know, brand loyalists. And then the outcome
of Owned is storytelling. It's how do you best

(18:56):
tell your story? So, and your messaging and
consistency and all those kinds of things. So if
you think about it from an outcome perspective,
sure, you could argue the semantics and if you
wanted to call that earned, you probably could.
But I would rather see PR professionals really
focus on the outcomes, the measurable outcomes,
than try to say, well, we got engagement and

(19:19):
reach and because of that we've earned it.

Dan Nestle (19:21):
It's. Well, I mean, if you give PR professionals
like various ways to do something, they're going
to do something in various ways. I mean, that's
just the way of things, you know, whatever
actually is most convincing to the CEO or to
their client at the time. And, you know, there's
nothing wrong with that. You mentioned something

(19:42):
though, there that really kind of is not only
intriguing, but I hear a lot lately is this is
just the word community, Right. And owned, I'm
sorry, shared as a sort of function of. Is shared
a function of community or is shared shared
within the model? Was community part of shared? I

(20:03):
don't, I don't know. But where I was going with
this is that community itself, those are now kind
of audience groups, right? Communities. There's
different audience groups. And approaching a
community within the community itself, you could
be aiming for earned within the community. Sure.

(20:25):
Right. Or you can, you could be some communities.
You can even do paid within a community, right?

Gini Dietrich (20:30):
Absolutely. Yep.

Dan Nestle (20:31):
So it's like you can keep replicating peso like
ad infinitum in a better ways.

Gini Dietrich (20:36):
It's interesting and that's the value of it, of
the integration. That's why it's less about the
tactics and more about how you bring this all
together. Right. So a really good example of that
is we have a client that is launching a campaign
and they did a. They did a really great job of
earned media at a local level with, with local
broadcast. That was it. There was no, there

(21:01):
wasn't any content development. There wasn't any
shared social media content, which means there
wasn't any ability to use any paid. They just did
the media relations. And I was like, no, you had
this. I mean, and they were there on the ground
with the news stations and you just had this huge
opportunity to do all this other stuff and

(21:22):
didn't. So that's what I really want people to
think about when they're doing peso is how do we
extend what we're already doing? How do we
repurpose it in ways that we don't have to add
more on, we don't have to add budget, we don't
have to have resources, we just do more.

Dan Nestle (21:39):
You're circling kind of around this point or at
this point that I did want to explore more with
you in the earn side of things. And I mean, now,
why not? Why not now? You know, there's, there's
this, that's a great example of, you know,

(22:01):
somebody going for the media and taking the like
traditional media relations, getting the coverage
and taking that as the win. And sure, there are
situations where it would be a big win in and of
itself.

Gini Dietrich (22:15):
Sure, absolutely right.

Dan Nestle (22:17):
But, but the way that we approach media relations
these days, and we've talked about this a little
bit, and I know you've written about this and
I've written about it, but the way we approach
media relations these days, it seems to be, well,
let's just say old. It seems to be a sort of
obsolete approach in that just like I said

(22:40):
before, you're looking at the activity versus the
results and you know, just by virtue of getting a
media hit in the tier of your choice, suddenly
you're, you feel like you've done your job. If
you overlay me, if you overlay peso on top of
that, you, you know that you're missing a lot.

Gini Dietrich (23:03):
Yep.

Dan Nestle (23:04):
But you know, the nature of earned media itself,
going for these, you know, these media hits that
are, in that example you gave, just by definition
fleeting. They disappear after a couple days.
There's nothing, there's no knock on effect,
rarely, unless it's a bad thing, in which case
it'll linger Forever. But generally speaking, no

(23:27):
media is one hit move on, One hit move on and has
very questionable results about your reputation,
brand, et cetera. So how do you think the nature
of. In the earned kind of category of peso,
especially if you think of it in that way, how
has that changed and how is it changing and

(23:50):
what's wrong with media relations as we know it?
That's a lot to talk about, but take it from any
angle you wish, Gini, because I have a soapbox on
this too.

Gini Dietrich (24:02):
We do a lot of work with universities and through
our, through our certification. And one of the
things that I've noticed in the last five years
is that when you talk to college students about
media relations or earned media, the first place
they go is not traditional media ever. I've never
in the last five years had a student say, oh,

(24:24):
well, yeah, let's go to Good Morning America
ever. And so that in its of self is shifting. You
also you layer on the fact that media is not
trusted. I think we've seen that we are just
coming out of the election. I think we all agree
that media's not media is not the media that it
was when we were starting our careers.

Dan Nestle (24:44):
Yeah, Gallup had that poll before the election
that media trust was at like 31% lower than
Congress and lower than Congress. Lower than
Congress. And Edelman Trust Barometer is always
saying, showing the decline in trusted media. I
would venture that, you know, here we are at the
time of this recording. You know, we're basically
two weeks after, roughly two weeks after the

(25:06):
election. Not quite, but I would venture, say
that that number is probably down to 15 now.
Like, I would. It may be worse. Like, yeah, it
is, it is a, it is an institution that, that is
crumbling and you know, traditional. And talk
about traditional media. So anyway, and that's.
That just colors this whole, this whole kind of

(25:28):
landscape that we live in.

Gini Dietrich (25:29):
Right. And then think about how you get your
information. I mean, unless you're, unless you're
80 years old or older, you're not getting
information or your news from TV anymore. You're
just not. You know, there's, there are lots of.
And, and because of what I do for a living, I

(25:50):
will go the extra step. But there are lots of
times where I'll see something on TikTok or on
Facebook or on Instagram and think, well, that's
interesting. And then I go do my due diligence to
see if it's factual and, you know, all those
kinds of things. But that, like, things are
introduced to me in the first place there. And
then secondly, just by swiping my phone over to

(26:11):
the right to see what news is being delivered to
me via my Apple News app. Right. So it's
completely changed. And I started to realize this
probably three years ago. I was sitting in the
chair getting my hair cut and my hairdresser is
about 15 years younger than I am. And she was
like, yeah, so on TikTok I found this. And then I

(26:33):
went down the rabbit hole and I'm like, wait a
second, you're getting all of your information
from TikTok? And she's like, yeah. And I was
like, what is happening? That's where we are.
Right. So it's less about the traditional media I
think today.

Dan Nestle (26:48):
And you know, people talk about the evils of
TikTok and the evils of Facebook and whatever.
You know, I'm sure that I heard that and. Which
means everybody's going to hear that. I can
honestly say that the adventures I've had on
TikTok were like straight into the vein. Dopamine.

Gini Dietrich (27:15):
Oh for sure.

Dan Nestle (27:16):
Loved it. So much so that I deleted it. Yeah. I.
Right. I mean, but you know, I mean to be like,
to be completely Transparent, I deleted TikTok
roughly 10-15-ish of 2023 after the October 7th
attacks in Israel. And I saw what was happening

(27:37):
there. I'm like, this is, this is horrifying.
This is not.

Gini Dietrich (27:39):
Yeah.

Dan Nestle (27:39):
It's just a cesspool. So it's just wrong. And
people are getting those bite sized bits of
information.

Gini Dietrich (27:46):
Yeah.

Dan Nestle (27:46):
You know that it's dangerous. But it's also if,
but if people, but if you're not looking at that,
if you're there to kind of get, I suppose, makeup
tips like my daughter does or.

Gini Dietrich (27:56):
Yeah.

Dan Nestle (27:57):
Or you know, to listen to music. It's one, it's,
it's amazing.

Gini Dietrich (28:00):
The animal videos. Freaking love them. Yeah.

Dan Nestle (28:03):
You know, I mean, I look, I saw this great meme a
while back and showing people have. Which is that
I don't, you know, I don't use, I don't use
TikTok. I use Instagram reels like a grownup.
Right. But that's a, it's a, it's a very similar,
the algorithm is very different but it's a
similar kind of, you know, doom scrolling, you
know.

Gini Dietrich (28:22):
Yep.

Dan Nestle (28:23):
But you know, but you pointed back to your point
though, like reaching customers or audiences
where they are, is, is. Has changed dramatically.

Gini Dietrich (28:33):
So you're saying dramatically.

Dan Nestle (28:35):
Yeah. So you're saying that they're not even
like, not even thinking about not even thinking
about it. The TV or traditional. Yeah.

Gini Dietrich (28:42):
I mean, and, you know, I mean, I come from a big
agency background. One of the first things we
always did when we were doing a new campaign was
how do we get the Today Show? What kind of stunt
do we need to do to get the Good Morning America?
They don't even think about that, which is crazy.

Dan Nestle (28:58):
Yeah. And that's a lesson, I hope that's learned
in the election, but also across other. Like,
across all facets of our socioeconomic life, big
successes are no longer dictated by a. By a small
number of mouthpieces.

Gini Dietrich (29:19):
That's right.

Dan Nestle (29:19):
And, you know, certain platforms and ways of
communicating have absolutely skyrocketed and
taken off. Right. Like this one podcast. So,
like, when I do over the last couple years when I
was doing, you know, my own peso thinking under
earned, I'd be writing podcasts. Very big

(29:41):
letters. Podcast, podcast, podcast. And I've had,
you know, initially, people like, you're crazy.
Why. Why do you want to get people on podcasts?
Like, interesting. Nobody listens to those things.

Gini Dietrich (29:51):
No. Just 150 million Americans.

Dan Nestle (29:53):
All right. I'm like, I'm not talking about ness.
I mean, I'm not talking about getting somebody on
Joe Rogan, Although, hey, that would be.

Gini Dietrich (29:59):
Right.

Dan Nestle (30:00):
That would be the biggest coup. Yeah. But just
generally, the wonderful thing about this is,
look, nobody is saying that these are journalists
unless it's a journalist podcast. Right. It's all
kind of very free. You know, they all have their

(30:20):
own biases and opinions, and they're very clear
about it, mostly.

Gini Dietrich (30:23):
Yep.

Dan Nestle (30:24):
So, And. And they're readily available. They
record all the time. There's so many of them, so
why not get your people out there? Right? And
then I said to them, you know, so I was. I said
to the naysayers, when is the last time you got a
media hit that you could repurpose into, you
know, 30 different pieces of social media and,

(30:48):
you know, on 15 different channels and, you know,
put it out there a couple of months later and
make it feel new and, you know, derive your
entire CEO speech from it. When did that. Yeah,
you know.

Gini Dietrich (31:02):
Right, right.

Dan Nestle (31:03):
You do that from a podcast. So this. So the whole
landscape is. Has completely changed. Earned. And
you were saying about, you know, you're saying
that whether here and in your writing, that, you
know, despite that, there's still an important
place for media relations. And I've come at this

(31:24):
recently from this approach that I'm calling it
earned attention. Now, I had thought that I was
onto some big thing and then I realized somebody
else invented that, and that's fine. A wonderful
marketer, of course, had to come from marketing.
Greg. Greg. Oh, shoot, I forgot his name. But
shout out to Greg anyway. But I, you know, I

(31:47):
think it's, it's more about attention, like
looking at it from where the audiences are, where
they're going to reward you with their attention.
Because attention is gold. Yep. A click is not
gold. Attention is gold. So fitting that into
pesos now, like, that's where my E in peso is.

(32:08):
Okay. It's like earned. Earned attention in my
head. Even though it still says earned media in
the law.

Gini Dietrich (32:15):
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was actually thinking about
this last night and I agree with you. I'm just
not going to change it to earn intention because
then from my perspective, because I'm ocd, it
unbalances the model. So then I'd have to change
all the other ones.

Dan Nestle (32:31):
That's true. Well, what I would posit though is
that, is that earned attention is what you're.
What you're doing. Earned media is what you're
getting. Maybe, like, maybe earned attention is
just a way of thinking about how to achieve their
earned media goals. And, you know, I think it

(32:52):
kind of fits within that somewhere. But hey, we
can doodle on that some other time. But I think,
but I do think that earned media, the whole
concept, the whole definition has changed, but
it's become so much broader, so, you know, it's
elevated in importance. Looking at the rest of
the pixel model, the next part of it that I would

(33:23):
say is incredibly, if not pivotally or centrally
important is the O. The O and how, you know, one
can't really happen without the other, I don't
think. Or can't. Can't happen. Well, so you
mentioned about, you know, renting versus owning

(33:46):
for people out there, you know, let's talk a
little bit about building on owned property
versus rented land. And you know, what is. What
does that kind of ultimately do for you, do for
your organization and. Because I think this is
where we're going to start getting into AI a

(34:08):
little bit more.

Gini Dietrich (34:09):
Yeah. Well, for the most part, I would say almost
every program should start with ownership.
Because you're right, if you don't have content,
you don't have anything to share distribute on
shared. You don't have anything to prove to an
influencer, a journalist, you know, a TikTok news

(34:31):
anchor, who you are, how you think, what your.
What your executives think, what your subject
matter experts can bring to the table. There
isn't anything to demonstrate that. And then of
course, you don't have anything to boost. Right.
You don't have anything to create and put some
money behind to grow your audience. So owned is
probably the best place to start for most

(34:52):
organizations. Now I will give the caveat that if
you're selling widgets and you need to sell a
bunch by Christmas, then paid media is the place
to start. But for everything else, I would say
owned is the place to start. And it's really
like, spend some time on that if you want to
create to your point, if you're going to create a
podcast, spend some time on that and get it right

(35:12):
and get the host conversation down right and get
the guests right and go through some iterations
before you start to promote it with the other
media types. If you're going to be doing
blogging, then get it right and do those like
test and iterate for a little bit before you use
the other media types to get it out there. But
build your social media or your own media assets

(35:34):
first so that then you can use the other media
types appropriately.

Dan Nestle (35:39):
I love what you said there about test and
iterate, because I think people overlook the fact
that when you're doing owned media, when you're
doing owned content, you have the luxury of
trying things out. You too, you know, and of the.

Gini Dietrich (35:55):
Nice thing about the Internet.

Dan Nestle (35:56):
Yeah. And you know, slaving over stuff before you
get it right. But it's interesting. Like, look,
I've been around for a while. I remember not too
long ago when a certain David Meerman Scott was
talking about building your own, how important it
was to build your website. And then news jacking
and all this ecosystem. He was describing new

(36:19):
rules then that seemed to have fallen out of
vogue with the advent of social. And social comes
around, especially LinkedIn. And then for a long
time people were saying, why bother building a
website? You don't need a website anymore. Right.
What's that? And, and I think recently it's
absolutely come full circle, and rightly so, and

(36:42):
especially because AI is crawling all these owned
owned properties and getting a lot of information
from your own properties. But there's a, there's
a renaissance in some ways, I think of, of
websites, of owned properties, of owned content.
Part of it's for SEO, part of it's for AI. But I

(37:05):
also think there's been an attitude change in
that, in that it used to be you build a website
and it had to be a destination. You're measuring
traffic on the website like crazy. Now we take
all that with a grain of salt. I mean, obviously
depends on your business. If you're an E commerce
site, you know, if you're a direct to consumer
site, you need that traffic. But you know, if

(37:26):
you're putting thought leadership up there, or if
you're a B2B company or you know, an
organization, if that's where the transaction
takes place, then you need to definitely need a
lot more foot traffic. But the value of the owned
is not necessarily in the traffic. That was a big
aha.

Gini Dietrich (37:46):
Yeah, I mean, for sure. Because Google and
ChatGPT are no longer sending traffic to your
website. So you have to figure something else
out. Right. And we've had to for sure iterate. I
also think people got burned. You know, people
invested in vine, people invested in Google,
people invested in Clubhouse, and all of those
went like literally overnight went dead. And

(38:11):
people lost their content, they lost their
followings, they lost their audiences. And so
people are now finally understanding that to not
go through that crisis and to own your audience,
you should have it on something that you own,
that you can control.

Dan Nestle (38:29):
Yeah. And that brings us back to community in
some ways or in every way really. Because the
people who come to your website or to your
property and stay there and hang around and sign
up for your emails and like, if you have a
community, like some platform or conversation for
interaction, if you're that kind of an
organization, they'll stay there, they'll go

(38:50):
there, and then they're yours. Yep. You know, so
building. Building community seems to be the,
probably the ultimate goal now rather than,
rather than kind of spreading everything out and
chasing down audiences that might or might not be
affinity audiences.

Gini Dietrich (39:11):
I mean, I think it's always been the goal is to
build your brand, brand loyalists and give them
the tools they need to help tell your story. I
think that's always been the goal. It's just the
tools of change.

Dan Nestle (39:22):
Yeah, that's another one of those things that
come full circle. People talk about community.
Our friend Mark Schaeffer is always a big
proponent of community. And community is the
future of marketing. He said before it's. I
can't. I don't doubt that there are so many
communities and I, I think comms, PR has, you

(39:48):
know, they're all. Let me back. They're always
talking about it like, they mean like marketing
people are always talking about it from. The
future of marketing is community. And that's
where marketers need to go back. I actually think
that columns is the place to make those
relationships, to build those communities and to
make relationships with people that matter more

(40:09):
Than anything else. We have a huge role to play
in that. Peso is, I believe, the key to that.
Prove me wrong.

Gini Dietrich (40:17):
I think it's. I kind of look at it this way.
Communicators are, by trade, relationship
builders. We're messengers. We build the trust
and we build the authority. And marketers by
trade. Our features and benefits, products, like,
here's why you should care kinds of things about

(40:38):
our product or service. They work together. But
from my perspective, marketing doesn't build the
relationships with people to then buy the
product. Yeah, communications builds the
relationships with people, and then marketing
explains the features and benefits and why they
should buy. So it's really. They work together in

(40:58):
a really seamless way, but they still have their
own fiefdoms, so to speak.

Dan Nestle (41:03):
Yeah, I mean, different organizations, kind of
smaller organizations might have a blurry line or
might have just one department to do, which is
great. Yeah. But I think you're right. And I
don't know, all this stuff is changing so
rapidly, and it's so fast, it's nuts. So which
is. Which is my way of sort of asking you or

(41:26):
switching, diving in a little bit more to some of
the more recent ways that you're evolving the
model and also what you're seeing out there,
because you have been really, really active in
the AI and comms space so much so I think that
sometimes when I'm ready to kind of talk about
something or write something, you beat me to it.

(41:48):
I don't know. Nine times out of ten. Ah, shit.
That's exactly what I wanted to say. So, like,
you know, we're surfing the same waves, and it's
really great, but, you know, you're seeing a lot
of it from a different perspective, and you're
seeing the way that your clients are using or
adapting to AI or objecting to AI. You're hearing

(42:09):
a lot more from your large audience about it and
from your own community. I should have mentioned
there's a great spine sex community, by the way.
But from within the community, people talk about
it. So let's look at AI and peso or AI and comms.
Maybe it's the same thing. You know, first of
all, like, top line, what are you seeing as the
main kind of areas that AI is infiltrating or

(42:34):
that we should be enhancing or adapting, you
know, to enhance our ability to be communicators?

Gini Dietrich (42:44):
AI is giving us time. It's giving us more time in
our day. It's making us more productive. And so
when we refresh the model in January, really, we
Were only looking at AI from an owned media

(43:05):
perspective. And I think that has massively
changed this year. We're going to refresh again
in January of 2025, which is crazy because we
used to go two or three years between refreshes
and now we're having to do it every six months.
But that's one of the big changes that we'll make
in January, which is it now infiltrates the
entire model. And a lot of the work that you do

(43:29):
through the framework to be able to integrate and
ensure that you're creating measurable work can
be done by AI. And sometimes it's data
collection, sometimes it's data analysis,
sometimes it's drafting outlines of content,
sometimes it's giving you ideas for social media
posts, sometimes it's looking at your creative
and saying, ah, what about this? One of my

(43:50):
favorite things to do is I mentioned that I'm
writing the second edition of Spin sucks. And so
I put all of the content from the first book into
a Claude project. I put the table of contents in
there. And then as I'm writing, I put the
chapters in and I will say to it, okay, I just
finished chapter three. Here it is. Please look

(44:11):
at the table of contents. Please read chapters
one and two and tell me what I'm missing or if
anything's confusing.

Dan Nestle (44:17):
Love it.

Gini Dietrich (44:17):
And it gives me like every, it always compliments
me. It's always like, this is a really.

Dan Nestle (44:21):
Right.

Gini Dietrich (44:21):
And then, and then it says here four, four or
five things that I think you should add. And most
of the time they're pretty good suggestions, you
know, so it's like having an editor sitting next
to you who can give you instantaneous comments.
And, and then you do it and then you go back and
say, okay, I've incorporated this. What do you

(44:44):
think? And it'll be like, well, this transition
is kind of wonky. Or do you want me to. And, and
I mean, I think it's making it a much better
book. And the same thing. We're doing the same
thing right now with subject matter experts.
Well, there. And they'll. We use leaps to, to, to
interview them. So we get, we ask them questions.
They, we get the answers back and then we take

(45:05):
the answers and we draft some content and then we
throw the answers that the SME gave us and the
content into ChatGPT and say, did we incorporate
their answers well? And sometimes it'll say,
well, you forgot this. Or, you know, they, they
phrased it this way, but you changed the wording
and it gives you all of that in seconds. So it's

(45:25):
just. It's just. It's giving you more time. It's
making you more efficient.

Dan Nestle (45:31):
Yeah, it's. It's certainly taking on a lot of
those tasks and giving you a team where you
didn't have a team before, giving you all these
kind of expanded capabilities. I'm a little bit
not suspicious. That's not the word. But I feel
like our tendency is to fill space. So as we free

(45:53):
up time, that time is going to get filled very
quickly for sure. So it's not like it's giving
you time to take a vacation. It's giving you time
to do more stuff.

Gini Dietrich (46:04):
More stuff like write your book faster or write
your book faster. It's like for every single one
of our clients, we have the Popcorn list, that we
call it, because I had a boss early in my career
who loved Faith Popcorn, and she would say, okay,
everybody put your ideas on the Popcorn list. And
so it stuck. But the Popcorn list is all the
stuff we'd love to get to eventually, but just

(46:25):
haven't had the time or strategy has changed or
whatever. And so we can go back to the Popcorn
list and say to clients, hey, you know, we talked
about doing this. What do you think about
incorporating it now? Because we have the time.

Dan Nestle (46:36):
Yeah. That's a very positive effect, certainly,
of AI, and I'm quite positive about it and
bullish on it. When you look at the Peso model,
you said that it's infiltrating everywhere, and
you kind of ran through a few examples, but do
you have any, like, real specifics for each of
the quadrants or each of the. Each of the pesos,

(46:59):
where, like, there's a specific AI tool that's.
That's useful or that you've used, or if there's
any, you know, specific use cases around that, if
you can discuss a few of them, that would be
awesome. We'd like to have a lot of big takeaways.

Gini Dietrich (47:11):
Oh, man. So the answer to that is. It depends.
Yeah, of course. And what I have learned in the
last year is that lots and lots of organizations
are not allowing teams to use certain things. So
they might be able to use ChatGPT, or they might
be able to use Jasper, or they might be able to
use Claude, but they can't use it all in tandem.

(47:32):
So with those things as the caveat, as you know,
I love Notebook LM for, like, taking a podcast
interview and creating different assets from it.

Dan Nestle (47:45):
Yeah.

Gini Dietrich (47:46):
So I love it for that. But also, we do a lot of
online courses and so I'll throw our scripts into
Notebook LM and I'll ask it to do frequently
asked questions and I'll also ask it to create
assessment questions. So quiz questions. So it
does that really well. I personally love Claude.

(48:06):
My two go to every day is Claude plus ChatGPT
just because I do a lot of content creation. So
those two are my favorite. I love WALDO at the
beginning of programs because you can use it for
research and competitive analysis on things. It's
always. It's also really great for just
understanding an industry really well. So yeah,

(48:28):
research from that perspective. I love Otter of
course for meeting notes. What else do I use?
Those are probably the big ones. I know what I
know. I have a couple of friends who really like
Jasper over Claude. So I think it just depends on
what you're.

Dan Nestle (48:45):
I mean Jasper has its own LLM, right? Oh no,
Rider has its own LLM. I think Jasper's using. I
don't know if it has. Does Jasper have its own
proprietary LLM? I don't know, I don't remember.
Good question. Writer has its own or it's based
on. Is it Mistral? I forget. Anyway, Rider is not
based on OpenAI. It's based on something else and

(49:09):
it has different. It's almost like pre made
prompts and use cases which is really useful. I'm
with you on Claude and ChatGPT. ChatGPT, it's
just so broad and they keep adding these
wonderful features, some not so great that go

(49:30):
away but they're going to keep experimenting. But
I work with both of them. I love Claude projects
just like. And Notebook LM has just wowed me with
a new capability that I didn't have. I don't
think it writes particularly well, but you

(49:50):
mentioned taking a podcast and pulling out, doing
a lesson about it from Notebook LM generating Q&A
when Notebook LM came out. And you know, you know
this because you were the recipient slash victim
of this from my standpoint. But I, you know I, I

(50:11):
saw it, I was like, I was like, oh, I can build a
peso notebook. And I immediately told you about
it. You know, I sent you the information but I
took the liberty before, before the show like,
of, of checking out my peso notebook and you
know, getting a little bit more, just refreshing
myself a little bit on it. It was really useful
for that because I have, I'm sure.

Gini Dietrich (50:32):
Yeah, it's great.

Dan Nestle (50:33):
And for, for our, for our listeners. What all I
did was, you know, you can add if you're not
familiar with Notebook LM You. You basically
create a walled garden that becomes your own
little research database, slash, language model.
And into that walled garden, you're allowed to.
It allows you to add up to 50 sources. The

(50:54):
sources are various types. It's all in there. And
they can be fairly large. The, you know, the
context window or the amount that we can include.
The amount of data that can be included is
massive on Notebook LLM. So I went. I took like
21 or 22 of Genie's own website pages. It's all
like. It's all like, you know, spinstocks.com

(51:17):
this and, you know, I just. Some of it's like the
guide to peso models. Some of it's the old
vehicle. And I had to do a study guide just
before. Come on. So, Jeannie, what is the
relationship between paid media and own media
within the model framework? It has questions and

(51:37):
answers. So funny.

Gini Dietrich (51:39):
Oh, it has answers too.

Dan Nestle (51:40):
Yeah, it's great.

Gini Dietrich (51:41):
Yeah.

Dan Nestle (51:42):
Jimmy Dietrich emphasizes that content should
live on something you own. What does she mean by
this? And why is it important? So you get these
great, These great questions.

Gini Dietrich (51:51):
And by the way, I'm glad I'm consistent.

Dan Nestle (51:53):
Oh, yeah. But, you know, by the way, it's like,
it's so funny. And in fact, every time you
generate one, there's a new, new list. But this
is a. This is a study. This is a quiz from the
study graph. It's a study guide, you know, and
why is the. Maybe you can answer this one,
Jeannie. Why is the order of the media types in
peso acronyms significant, even if it may not
reflect the order of implementation? I'm sensing

(52:15):
a hallucination here.

Gini Dietrich (52:16):
But it's not significant. It's only created that
way because it's easy to remember.

Dan Nestle (52:22):
Well, I think you're wrong. It says, while some
argue for prioritizing other media types first,
the peso acronym representing paid, earned,
shared and known media, is designed for
memorability. This reflects a key branding
principle. A catchy and easily remembered name
contributes to its effectiveness and wider
adoption. So future, remember, you see, there you

(52:45):
go. But it's very interesting. It pulls out all
this information. And so I love. I love Notebook
lm. I. I do use it for. For a lot of content that
I create to give me a baseline. And I find it
really good for the owned part, for sure. Like,
forget. For building out my own content. You

(53:05):
know, that the. The part where I am not as I
think maybe as deep in, is in the paid side.
Right. So, yeah, you know, what are the tools out
there? Like I understand conceptually and I have
done analysis of, of, you know, I'll get, I'll
get traffic data and I'll get pricing or I'll get

(53:29):
advertising data, whatever. And I can drop, drop
it into any of the AI tools and get some analyses
and highlight, you know, highlight where, like
either opportunities or flaws in the programs.
But are you using, are you seeing any great uses
for it in the paid side apart from like ad
generation?

Gini Dietrich (53:49):
That's probably the big one. I know my team will
use it to throw creative in to see if there are
any challenges with it, like anything, anything
that our biases might prevent us from seeing. So
they use it for that a lot. They use it for
headline generation just to see if it will come
up with anything that they haven't thought of

(54:09):
yet. I think they do sometimes use it just to
say, hey, what kind of graphic would you use for
this? So they do get those kinds of ideas too.
But I think those are probably the three main
ways that you do it.

Dan Nestle (54:22):
Yeah, I love the idea of synthetic data like
creating, essentially creating Personas as
focused and then building a focus group of those
Personas and then testing your ideas against
those. And, you know, whether that falls under
the P or the, or the kind of precursor to
creating owned content or whatever is I think up

(54:43):
to you. But it's amazing though. The point is
that all that AI is changing everything. So cool.
It's embedding itself into all of our, into the
model. You know, I just, you know, I think that
there's like, there's just so much to get into
with this. And if you had to, like, you know, I

(55:04):
think a lot of people listen are probably, you
know, AI. I wouldn't say people are all AI
advanced, but they're listening for some hints
and for some, for some clues. And you gave a
couple of good tools here. Jack D. Claude Waldo
Otter. By the way, I am a Fireflies AI, not an
otter person.

Gini Dietrich (55:21):
Okay.

Dan Nestle (55:22):
But just by happenstance, not by necessarily
preference. They're both great tools. But I
wanted to ask you, I suppose, like, you know, if
there's like three things that people should be
doing right now in the communications world,
especially with AI and the peso model, like, you

(55:44):
know, it's all intertwined, all interconnected.
Right. What are those three things?

Gini Dietrich (55:49):
I would say it's really use it. Just play with it
and get comfortable with it because the more you
use it, the more you understand its value. And as
you do that, consider it an intern. So just like
you have to do with an intern you have to
educate, you have to say, this isn't quite right,

(56:10):
and here's why. Do that with your AI tool of
choice, because it will get better and better and
better. You mentioned earlier that there's a
couple of words that you don't want your AI
using. Mine is impact. Please do not use the word
impact so you can train it to do those kinds of
things. And one of the things I've noticed, I

(56:30):
have to consistently tell it to write in
narrative prose because it loves to give me
lists. I don't want a fricking list.

Dan Nestle (56:37):
Yeah, yeah. I love cloud projects for that, by
the way, because when you, when you create a
Claude project, you set the writing style, you
set the tone, you set some prompts. That's
beautiful. Well, look, we're really kind of
getting up on it and I know that. I'm so grateful
for your time, Jimmy. You're so generous, given

(56:57):
that you are, as I said, a PR legend. And I tried
to refrain as much from gushing over you, but I
might have failed. The last thing I'm going to
ask you is basically one last two parter. First,
is there anything I didn't ask you that you
wanted to talk about? And the second is. Second
is, is there anything keeping you up at night,
like in a good way or bad way, about the future

(57:20):
of communications?

Gini Dietrich (57:21):
Oh, well, there is something keeping me up at
night, but I don't know if it's about the future
of communications. It's how much protein can I
get into my body to grow muscles.

Dan Nestle (57:29):
Oh, yeah, that's a good one. That's a good one.
You can ask Chad. You can ask about. Well, you
know, you can ask Perplexity now. There's a.
Perplexity now has expanded. It's. It's its
capabilities. And there's now Perplexity
shopping. So you can, you can use Perplexity to
do an intense search about, you know, the science
behind muscular growth and then at the same time

(57:51):
find the exact protein powders you need.
Wonderful.

Gini Dietrich (57:55):
What I have right here, protein powder.

Dan Nestle (57:58):
Yeah. So. So health is, is. Is on your mind. It's
a good thing, health.

Gini Dietrich (58:02):
Yeah, yeah. Growing muscles. For me, it's less
about the future of communications and more about
how to continue to evolve this. So it makes sense
for every type of organization, every size of
organization, and especially coming up to the
first of the year, which is when we're going to

(58:23):
relaunch all of this stuff, that's where I'm
spending a lot of time. So it's kind of looking
into the crystal ball a little bit to understand
what could be coming. Reading the research and
understanding, I'd love to see Gallup do a second
poll on where the media trust is right now post
election, but it's that kind of stuff. How is

(58:45):
this going to evolve? What are the economic
trends showing us that will shift a lot of what
we're doing and what can we expect?

Dan Nestle (58:56):
Big questions for which of course I have no
answers right now, but I think everything's going
to. I agree with you on everything's evolving so
quickly. I mean, I'm very curious to see if
there's going to be a Peso agent created. Some
agentic AI is coming down very quickly, folks.
And if there ever was a really good use case for

(59:18):
an agent, could be a Peso one. I don't know, I'm
just saying might be something. I'm thinking if
you were a public company, I would be doing
something with my money. So anyway, I am. I think
that we have a lot to chew on here. I think
everybody needs to go out and go to spinsucks.com
where you will find information not only about

(59:38):
Genie, but also about the Peso model. You can
find Genie on LinkedIn, of course, Jimmy
Dietrich. And her name will be spelled properly
in the episode and notes and title of the show.
And you know, also you go on Twitter, Jenny, Are
you. Are you active on Twitter these days

(59:59):
yourself too?

Gini Dietrich (01:00:02):
No.

Dan Nestle (01:00:03):
Yeah, that's the typical answer. It's usually a
sigh followed by a.

Gini Dietrich (01:00:08):
It was so great. Just is not.

Dan Nestle (01:00:14):
You know, it's a. It all depends on what you're
looking for. And so it's one of those 12 media
bubbles you were talking about before, which
clearly means it's probably not your bubble.

Gini Dietrich (01:00:24):
That is not my bubble.

Dan Nestle (01:00:25):
But. But still, you know, if you are interested
in seeing some of the distributed content from
Spin Sucks, you could follow on LinkedIn, on
Twitter, @ spinsucks. And is there any other
place that people can find Jiu Jimmy that I
missed?

Gini Dietrich (01:00:40):
Well, I just today got a Blue sky account. I
haven't done anything with it yet, so. But
Instagram, we're on Instagram too.

Dan Nestle (01:00:47):
So Spin socks, Instagram. Everywhere. Spin sucks.
Spin sucks. Spin does suck. Everywhere. It's true.

Gini Dietrich (01:00:52):
Spin sucks.

Dan Nestle (01:00:53):
No spin. Be clear of the spin. Well, on that
note, Gini, I want to thank you so much for
joining me today and you know, I hope you can
come back again and I'm really looking forward to
the next edition of Peso Model.

Gini Dietrich (01:01:07):
Got to get it done.

Dan Nestle (01:01:08):
Yeah. Thank you.

Gini Dietrich (01:01:11):
Thanks for having me.

Dan Nestle (01:01:12):
Yeah, thanks for taking the time to listen in on
today's conversation. If you enjoyed it, please
be sure to subscribe through the podcast player
of your choice. Share with your friends and
colleagues and leave me a review. Five stars
would be preferred, but it's up to you. Do you

(01:01:35):
have ideas for future guests or you want to be on
the show? Let me know @dane trending
communicator.com thanks again for listening to
the trending Communicator.