July 1, 2020 • 38 mins
The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
Much of what we’ve been experiencing in various ways over the past couple of months is grief. To help us dig a little deeper into what grief looks like given our current state of affairs, Dr. Ajita Robinson is back with us this week. Dr. Robinson and I chatted about our collective sense of grief, how our rituals around grief have been upended, the importance of processing symbolic losses, and her thoughts about the work that will need to be done on the other end of the pandemic.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
M hm okay. Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast,
a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all
the small decisions we can make to become the best
(00:21):
possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard
and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more
information or to find a therapist in your area, visit
our website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While
I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast,
(00:42):
it is not meant to be a substitute for a
relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks
so much for joining me for such an one sixty
two of the Erapy for Black Girls Podcast. Much of
what we've been experiencing in various ways over the past
(01:05):
couple of months is grief. Grief related to the loss
of loved ones, our previous way of life, and our
ideas about what would look like. To help us dig
a little deeper into what grief looks like. Giving our
current state of affairs, Dr a Jetta Robinson returns with
us as a guest. Dr Robinson is a licensed clinical professional, counselor,
(01:30):
trauma and grief expert. First generation, trauma and poverty disruptor.
She is the founder and executive director of Friends and
Transition Counseling Services, a trauma centered mental health practice located
in Bethesda, Maryland. She's also the CEO of Legacy Wellness Group,
a conglomerate of enterprises dedicated to promoting generational wealth, education,
(01:54):
and healing. Dr Robinson and I chatted about our collective
sense of grief, how our rituals around grief have been upbended,
the importance of processing symbolic losses, and her thoughts about
the work that will need to be done on the
other end of the pandemic. If you hear something that
resonates with you while listening, please remember to share it
(02:17):
with us on social media using the hashtag tv g
in session. My apologies in advance as we did have
some tech issues with this interview. Here's our conversation. Thank
you so much for being back with us today, Dr Robinson,
Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, I am
very happy that you were able to join us again. Um,
(02:40):
you joined us for session thirty one of the podcasts,
and so it feels very timely to have you back,
given that it feels like much of what we have
been dealing with in tw is grief. Absolutely. I think
one of the things that is really profound for me
is that for the first time in a very long time,
I think we're all experience thing or noticing the collective
(03:01):
grief that we're experiencing that doesn't always have to relate
with people dying that's happening, but we're recognizing that grief
manifests as a result of other experiences as well, and
I think that's opening up a dialogue that we haven't
had capacity to have in a while. Yeah, you talked
about that a lot on your last visit. You know
that grief is much more than just us losing loved ones.
(03:24):
Can you talk a little bit about some of those
symbolic losses? Absolutely? So. I was also want to say
that grief is a universal experience, but that is unique
for each of us, and so we will navigate a
variety of spaces, nonlinear processes that are triggered by not
just the death of a loved one, but some of
these day to day losses that we experienced, such as
(03:47):
things are really being amplified right now because of this
pandemic and some of the racial injustices that are occurring,
such as loss of safety, both emotional, psychological and for
some physical as well, loss of stability, loss of routine,
loss of some of these milestones, of anniversaries. Some are
experiencing loss of control, loss of income, loss of identity.
(04:09):
All of those are symbolic losses. And here's the thing.
The body doesn't know that the loss of symbolic. It
grieves the same as if the loss is physical. And
so it's so importantly because I often hear people minimize
their losses because no one died, right, And so I
think that is an it's an unfair comparison to make.
(04:30):
It is a unique experience, and the body is going
to do grief work regardless of what the trigger is.
And so that's important for us to just know one
understands that it's such an important point. Can you say
a little bit more about how grief sometimes shows up
in our body? Absolutely, and so it can show up
physically in our body, and oftentimes that is what first
alerts us that something isn't okay, is that we are
(04:53):
physically feeling it. We might feel paying in our stomach,
it might be some gi issues such uh, just normal pain, right,
what feels like issued digesting food it maybe you know
the think he's like diarrhea, things like that, we feel
it in our choice. Even numbness in extremities is pretty common,
chest pain, micrains, loss of memory, concentration, all of those things.
(05:20):
Even we've seen folks present with respiratory issues right that
feel like they are physical or biological in nature, but
then really be cyclosmatic complaints as a result of both
brief and trauma, right. And so the body scores all
of that, especially if we're in a prolonged activated state
like we have been in this pandemic that's now followed
(05:43):
up with the racial injustice and the rest of occurring.
All of those things are heightened states of being which
requires the body to operate on a very different level,
which often means that we are heightened cortisol levels, which
is never great. That we're on the body right physically
and psychologically. So all of those things are responses to
(06:05):
both greef and trauma that we may not necessarily code
of briefings. Mm hmmm. Yeah. And you know, as I'm
listening to you talk, I am finding myself overwhelmed, and
I think it goes back to this this collective grief
that you were talking about, right, So many of us
have been sheltering in place or at least you know,
modified connecting with others for quite some time now. Lots
(06:30):
of people have lost loved ones. We have lost really
all sense of normalcy at this point, and like you mentioned,
just continuing racial injustices. And so I'm wondering, what does
processing all of this grief even look like compared to
maybe when you would maybe just lose a job, but
(06:50):
other things are going okay in your life. Yeah, And
so I think that the ambiguous nature of laws, right,
and that it's so there's really no domain of our
life that is an impact normally, you know, when our
personal life is going to you know, tacking to hanvest
it right automatically in the dumpster because of things that
(07:13):
are happening, we're usually able to you know, go to
work and disconnect from that and block it out. Well,
we have we're doing all of that in in our homes, right,
many of us are or we're going into spaces office
spaces that aren't feeling space and that aren't we're grieving
there as well, right, We are triggered there as well.
So there's no escape, and so even though we don't
(07:35):
typically want to use escapism as a coping mechanism, it
does minimize that feeling of overwhelmed because we're not constantly
having to encounter it and grapple with it. We can
you know, do some of the grief work and walk
away from it so that it isn't just overwhelming totally
encompassing experience. And that's what we're seeing is that there's
no there's no release, right, There's no relief from what's
(07:58):
happening in there's no end in sight, right. I think
that is also compounding it. And so our normal things
that we might use, such as you know, disconnecting and
hanging out with friends or you know, going to the
movies or other ways that we're able to just modulate
the amount of emotions we're having to contend with. We
don't have those resources right now. They're not available to
(08:21):
us in the ways that they were. And actually on
the other end, right, is that we now have this
over stimulation of things that's actually not allowing us to
check out, right, And so we're engaged in social media
in a way that even though we were on social
media before, we usually have breaks because we had to
go do something right, or go be somewhere or at
you know whatever, it might be, hit in the car,
(08:43):
what have you. There was these breaks in that exposure
that now we're just being flooded, right, And many of
us didn't have great boundaries around or or um maybe
the insight that we needed or awareness that we needed
are around what our boundaries are around how much we consume,
right or the things that we do to help reregulate ourselves.
(09:05):
We are kind of just managing it in really I
think a distancing kind of way, right, distancing ourselves from
the trigger by being busy with people, with things, with work, whatever.
And now all of those things that we normally use
to cope out really available in the same way, right,
So we're having to relearn that as well. So that's
(09:25):
one of my concerns is that we're seeing more complex grief,
which is often a result of traumatic experiences and cumulative
and compounded Greek experience is like what many in the
black and indigenous people of color groups are experiencing as
a result of repeat exposures. Right. My concern is that
one it it is occurring, and then too that this
(09:47):
population is disuportunately impacted but also underrepresented in the healthcare
mental health care service system, right, and so less likely
to either receive treatment or receive culturally comm to care.
And then the amount of clinicians we have that are
actually trying to treat complex trauma in this population, because
I'm really I am concerned about what this all means
(10:10):
for the overall hope and healing for this particular population,
which I'm remember of, right, and so I'm aware of
being you know, I'm not unaffected by all of these things, right, right, Yeah,
I echo your concern there, and just you know, I'm
thinking about, like, even if you didn't necessarily come into
this with different layers of trauma, it definitely feels like
(10:33):
there's enough going on now that would yeah, it would,
it would it would trigger the complex trauma. Yeah, yeah,
So what kinds of things do you feel like we
might be able to do well? What kinds of resources
maybe should we be trying to kind of store within
ourselves to try to work through some of this grief again,
(10:53):
because it is not kind of your simple grief, and
it's not happening simple being that there's no violent or
traumatic component to it. Given that that is not the case.
I think that it is so so important that we
give ourselves permission to seek professional support. I think that
that is going to be more important now than it
has ever been. Is that we are I think, real
with ourselves about what our coping strategies are. Some of
(11:15):
them they aren't working for us right now, right, and
so being able to kind of evaluate and be honest
about where we need support. I think we are so
used to helping others. This goes for us clinicians, but
also for everyday people. We're so used to helping others
that we haven't really cultivated a habit of receiving support.
And so when people are asking you how you're doing,
(11:37):
we're so used to saying I'm fine. So we're not
even telling the story or naming the thing that we're
struggling with, right, And so that's gonna be a big
part of it. A big part of grief work is
just naming the thing. Grief and trauma work is naming
the injury, the womb, wherever you the feelings, right, and
so that is going to be important. A lot of
times in grief work, we do this through narrative work
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or storytelling it's important that we have spaces to do
that that aren't triggering to other people. And so one
of the reasons that we want to create the habit
of talking about it is so that we don't do
the verbal vomit and that becomes overwhelming to whoever is
on the receiving end, because we've been storing up the
story that whoever listens longest gets it right. And so
(12:21):
if we're able to do that more often, whether it
be actually talking to people or support groups or journaling,
that we have a space to get it out so
it can metabolize in a place outside of our body,
so that we can make sense of it in a
way that isn't just holding onto it. And so that
piece is really really important again because if we hold
(12:44):
it, it it literally stores in our body and it affects
other It affects us on a global level. Right, finding
ways to be connected to the people who are good
for you, good in your life, and if we don't
have them, be intentional about seeking those communities and relationships
even in this socially distant space that is still possible,
utilizing technology, online, offline groups, um phone, things of that nature,
(13:10):
and so really being creative and leaning into that and
then in the name of loss, in the interests of
honoring that that we've lost, naming it, seeking support around
those experiences, as well as finding a way to find
meaning in that and not in the loss itself, but
in what life looks like afterwards. And this is the
(13:31):
part that is so important to the grief and healing work.
But that for some of us feels like it's escaping
us because our everyday world is changing. So how do
I find meaning in life post loss when I don't
even know what life looks like? And so in that instance,
what does it look like today? What are the things
that you can do or choose to not do today
(13:52):
that honors what you've lost? And so sometimes for some
of us, that's giving ourselves permission to not do things
that actually don't serve us anymore. We do them because
we're so used to doing them when we do them,
because of expectations around doing them right. This might be saying,
you know, today I actually the mental health to day
from my job, and yes I'm working from home, but
(14:14):
today I cannot do this work. And that may be
the best way you can honor where you are in
your grief journey today and tomorrow might present itself with
something new. What are the routines and the rhythms rather,
that you can re establish in your life based on
what your body and emotions are telling you that you need, right,
And so I've been helping clients create these routines that
(14:37):
create some predictability about their day because there's so much
that they know more that it's really important that we
find those when we can, because the essence of trauma
is a loss of safety, including the loss of routines, right,
And so the ways that we can capture those things
is really important to our overall sense of self. Yeah,
(14:59):
you know that remind as me as something you share
the last time you were here, just about how grief
often strikes the hardest at night, right when things have
kind of calmed down for the day and you know,
you're more kind of alone with your thoughts. But now
then night and day really kind of run together, and
it kind of feels hard to know when is cutting
off time, so to speak. I'm wondering if you're seeing
(15:20):
any differences in that I'm seeing it just to be
more pervasive, and it feels so intrusive because it's happening.
It's certainly still happening at night, because that's still when
we're most quiet, most still in your brains, like, hey,
you have time, you're available. Let's let's experience that or
let's work through that. But now, because we're not so
distracted by busy, right, whether it be our commute or extracurriculars,
(15:45):
whatever it is, the body is like, oh, we have time, right,
we're available, and so it feels intrusive because it catches
up off scar because we're doing something as monotonous is
washing dishes, um, we're not using the same kind of
capacity that we might be on when we were at
work or what have you, and so the body is
attempting to do repaired to work whenever it feels like
(16:07):
there's resources that can divert to doing that. And so
we're just seeing it happen, and combined with the fact
that we're exposed to stimuli because we're online, we're watching
the news, we're in these Facebook groups, were on Instagram,
all of these things is keeping us very much grounded
in the triggers, and so it makes sense that we're
being flooded throughout the day as well. Something else that
(16:29):
I believe has been contributing to our grief and trauma.
Is continuing to consume videos and stories about black people
dying at the hands of the police. Can you share
a little bit about the impact that might have on us?
And so we're consuming these this content throughout the day
that actually is negatively impacting us, right, and so it's
creating what we call a vicarious trauma response just by
(16:53):
the consumption of watching the videos or reading the articles
that detailed the deaths of the people, right the people
that we've lost, whether it be to COVID or due
to some of the racial and police brutality that's you know,
being amplified right now. And so that certainly is happening
because again, even if you aren't watching the video and
you're reading the stories or reading the Facebook post or
(17:16):
things like that, your body creates an image of what
you've heard, what you've seen, and it stores it in
your brain and your body. And so i vicarious trauma
or secondary trauma is created anytime we're hearing, watching, or
experiencing trauma through a means other than direct witnessing and victimization.
So it doesn't have to happen to you through secondary
(17:37):
vicarious exposure, you can develop the same symptoms of post
traumatic stress disorder. And so we've got to be mindful
of our own mental health and wellness as you honor
the lives that are being lost. You can bear witness
to to seeking justice without being witnessed to their injury
into their death. This is the point that I really
struggle with because I of course know that oftentimes it
(17:58):
doesn't feel like we can and even begin to get justice,
especially in the cases of these racial incidents, right, because
if there is not video, and so then in the
attempt to call attention to it and make sure if
something happens, people are sharing the video everywhere, right, And
I don't think that we always think about how psychologically
(18:18):
impactful ideas for us videos and stories and you know,
all in the call for justice. Absolutely it is traumatic,
It is absolutely traumatic. It is another piece that is
it's compounded by this race based component, right, because we
know history and president events tell us that if we
(18:40):
aren't advocating, right, and that that feels like the bearing
witness part, then other people will look at this video
and see something very different. And so we have felt
a responsibility to to witness, right, so that we can
be preservers of justice right, so that we can advocate,
and we do that by knowing. And so I think
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also part of it is in in our own way,
wanting to make sure that that person that we've lost,
that they weren't alone, that their their life has meaning,
and we mistake that by by thinking that we have
to witness the thing that occurred right in order to
be able to fully tell their stories are fully seek
(19:21):
justice for them. Because there's such discrepancy in the way
these events are rules right or handled with the police,
and the way that they're covered in the media, and
so we have been become responsible for shaping their narrative
because we can't rely on those that we should be
able to. At least it's the feeling we can't rely
(19:42):
on the stories that are being told about us and
our loved ones and are those that we identify with,
because they have consistently misused the narrative. They've consistently mistold
the stories right, and that has been a contributing factor
to the miscarriage of justice. Hmm. Absolutely. So the other
(20:02):
thing that has been really upended throughout the coronavirus is
that we are not able to gather to send a
loved one off. You know, we love a good homegoing
service right when we have had to either forego that
all together or they look completely different. So can you
talk a little bit about how the change in that
(20:24):
ritual that we are used to is also impact and grief.
Mm hmm. Yeah, it is so complex. Again, I feel
like I keep using that word, but it's the best
way to describe it. The ambiguous nature and disconnect that
many are feeling in these funerals or rituals is profound.
I had a client. I'm going to blend some of
them together for the sake of confidentiality, but imagine kind
(20:47):
of being at a funeral for your grandmother and not
being able to console your mother because of a need
to keep her safe, and thus denying both of you
the comfort of touch and togetherness that we thrive on
contact emotionally and physically. We're relational being, but we're having
to choose between feeling connected and being safe. It's a
natural the body and the brain. They don't understand the
(21:09):
deprivation that we are required to maintain in the the
name of safety. The body is trained to survive, and
so what my concern is is that we are actively
and intentionally social social distancing. But it's desynthesizing ourselves with
repeated isolation and deprivation of touch and connectedness and community
(21:30):
that I think is going to further impact our ability
to emotionally regulate. We're already seeing this. We're seeing heightened
stimulation seeking behaviors such as eating and you know, consumption
of television and shopping, and so we're coping in other
ways because we're trying to connect. Right, We're seeking stimulation
because we've numbed ourselves against the disconnect and being able
(21:51):
to really be fully present with our loved ones and
honoring what's already a very difficult life transition of death,
a loss of job, or whatever it might be. And
so I'm concerned about that disconnect that we're having to
impose in the ways that we are training ourselves to
not be present because we can't be right um in
a full body experience way, because we have to disconnect
(22:14):
the physical from the emotional in order to remember to
maintain six ft of distance at a funeral. It is
a very unnatural thing. And so my concerns as doing
grief and trauma work is the reintegration component that I
believe will create some retriggering when we do have you know,
these delayed memorials that people are already looking forward to
our planning because they feel like the ones that they
(22:36):
did via zoom didn't do their love one justice or
they still need to do the in person when whenever
it's safe to do so. But the desensitization and the disconnect,
I think it's going to create a retriggering of mourning
and thus more complex trauma as we begin to reconcile
that we've actually the body has already gone through these feelings,
(22:58):
but we disconnected ourselves from it because we've had to um.
And so what happens when we attempt to reintegrate that
right and do we actually feel safe, are we able
to engage or will it become this a performative expression
component that leaves us feeling numb and disconnected all over again.
And so the reintegration of that not only traumon erat
(23:18):
a bit healing pieces where I'm kind of most concerned
about what that means for us long term. So I'm wondering,
when you are talking, when clients are maybe even for
people who are listening, should there maybe be a second
thought about whether there should be a more public gathering
when it's safe for us together if you've already had
like the Zoom memorial or something m H. I think people,
(23:42):
I think people need that UM, and so I have
continued to encourage clients to UM continue to plan those
but I have encouraged them to still do the work now. UM.
For some folks, because they haven't had the physical gathering
or they never even had a funeral, the loss isn't
actually real because COVID made it hard to see that
person anyway. And so I think that is going to
(24:04):
come full circle. I think preparing for that to be
a regrieving and retrigging experience is going to be important.
But thinking about what are the rituals and the grieving
traditions that we can still engage in. Right at the
core of some of those rituals or traditions is a purpose.
Can we identify what the purposes and still do that
(24:26):
in a different way? And so we have to reimagine
the ways that we can do the honoring and the
memorializing in the meantime right because I think not doing
it or not preparing ourselves for having to redo it
and that all of those feelings will feel brand new again.
Is preparing us to be really infected in ways that
we just can't anticipate, right, And so I think if
(24:49):
you can seek support again formally and informally, do that, now,
do the online gatherings, If you can do authentic check
ins and listening, how are you able to honor your
loved ones life today and what that means for your
life to the best of your ability. I think going
through those tasks is going to be really really important
because I would hate for someone to encounter those things
(25:12):
for the first time at that second memorial or whatever
it might be. Again, I'm concerned about the complexity and
the compounded factors that are likely to her mm hmmm. Yeah.
And I think the other thing, you know, kind of
going back to our earlier conversation about the fact that
grief is not just the loss of a loved one,
I think it is difficult for people to sometimes conceptualize
(25:35):
these other like symbolic lasses like you mentioned, because there
are so many rituals around the laws of a loved one, right,
Like we know the thing to do are the things
to do, and for more symbolic losses, there aren't those
same rituals or traditions. Are there things that you would
suggest that people can maybe facilitate for themselves or with
their support system or with their therapists as a way
(25:57):
to have some tradition and ritual around these symbolic losses. Yeah,
and so a lot of these are around. You know,
if it's a loss of a relationship, there's things that
we can do. We lose parts of ourselves and relationships
even when they're good, right, and so there's a reclaiming
process that we can go through. There's a self discovery
(26:18):
or rediscovery process. You know, there's a cleansing process that's
a part of rituals in mourning when they're symbolic. That
can apply to a variety of different losses. It really
depends on what the losses and what we're wanting to
maybe restore or renew. I think identifying what we want
life to look like for ourselves, what are the things
(26:39):
that are potential barriers and being able to do kind
of our own self work. Sometimes we have a lot
of guilt. That's actually a very common emotion and shame around.
You know, if we lost our job right during this pandemic,
there's a lot of shame in how much of our
identity is wrapped in that job, and so what are
the way or sometimes we stay to the job too long, right,
(27:01):
or we feel like we have given our best years
to a job that didn't value us or whatever, And
so one honoring that that sense of loss, but also
giving yourself permission to reimagine the ways your skill sets
or your passions are still alive and and can be
kind of recreated in different experiences. Right, but we still
(27:22):
have to read those losses, and so I think giving
yourself permission to not discount the symbolic loss and go
through the normal mourning process like you live with the
physical loss, and then what does life look like post that?
I think COVID is making that interesting for us because
we just don't know what the day to day is
going to look like. But there are still things that
we can do, um whether they be going back for
(27:44):
additional training or for some of us, it's giving us
space to be and to not do for the very
first time in our life and being able to be
okay with that that Sometimes that's that might be exactly
what we need if we have the room to explore
that at because we have been doing for so long
that what might it look like if we're actually still
(28:05):
on purpose. What might we find and learn about ourselves
about what we actually desire for us when we're able
to do that? And so I think that's a unique
process for everyone, and giving yourself the space to explore
that with someone that can do grief work with you. So,
you know, the other thing that I have been thinking
about throughout our conversation is just how you know, like
(28:26):
you mentioned, we are all experiencing some level of collective
grief related to everything that is happening, and how a
lot of our bandwidths are very low at this point, right,
and so usually you know, within your sphere of support,
you know, somebody is kind of wonderful tank and so
they can be there a little bit more for other people,
(28:46):
right and now, probably most of us are operating at
a half tank or lower. And so I'm wondering if
you have ideas about how we can continue to take
care of ourselves so that we can continue to show up,
but also how we might be able to stay at
boundaries when we want to be able to be there
to support somebody who might be greeting yeah again, I'm
(29:08):
a big fan of therapy, your faith, exercise. Those are
all different things that you can do to take care
of yourself. Journaling, um, some of the normal coping stuff, right,
but also giving yourself permission to disconnect. Right, So giving
yourself some downtime, again, not when you're sick and worn out,
but again in a in a way to restore yourself. Um.
(29:31):
Giving yourself space for creative things. Storytelling, music and art
are really restorative practices therapeutically, both formally as well as informally.
I think that listening to your body. I talk about
routines a lot, but I think in this space we
have to be intentional about rhythms. And so given that
our day to day is changing, the routines might feel
(29:54):
outside of our reach. But if we listen to the
rhythm of your body and just really getting connected but self.
Your body tells you what it eats. And sometimes it's
a midday nap, right, and not as a way to escape,
but because we actually didn't sleep well last night. Because
that gets disrupted too in the midst of grief and trauma, right,
And so listening to those rhythms is really important. Sometimes
(30:16):
your body needs movement you feel it because your hips
feel like they're backing up, you lose sensation in your toes.
You need to move your body listen to that rhythm.
And so those are some self care things that I
think are important. I also think giving us again, a
lot of this is mindset. We have been trained in
condition to be available and accessible. That actually isn't what
(30:38):
most people need from you. People benefit from you having
good boundaries, and sometimes it is our lack of boundaries
that keeps people in a place where they feel co
dependent on us, because we have a need to feel needed, right,
And so I think boundaries are your best friend. They
have to be, And it's not about creating a barrier
to access in you. It's about creating a boundary around
(30:59):
your resources and conserving that so that it can be
used more effectively for those who actually needed, including yourself. Right,
creating a boundary around access, whether it be you act
giving information or receiving information. I think boundaries are really
really important. They get a bad rap, but they are
so important for keeping you intact. I think those are
(31:21):
some of the things that we want to be intentional about.
Is intentionally being not available so that you can refill
your own cup is important, especially because none of us
are unaffected. I also think that it's really really important
that we are mindful about the ways we are evaluating
the way other people are coping or dealing, because I've
(31:43):
seen friendships unravel in the midst of trauma and chaos
because we are not clear that somebody is in it
with us or they're not available in the ways we
need them to. But if we can just remember that
we're all doing the best that we can and our
grief looks different, does I mean we're not doing it.
It just means it's different, and it's important that we
(32:04):
don't impose our values on other people's great process. Mm hmmm.
So several times throughout this conversation, Dr Robinson, you said,
this is what I'm concerned about on the other side
of this, right, And so, of course I'm not asking
you necessarily to read into our future, but I am
curious about some of the things that you think we
(32:26):
will have to be making sure we're paying attention to
as we kind of come out of sheltering in place
and you know, things start to open up a little
bit more. What kinds of things do you think we
do need to be paying attention to or might expect
related to grief. Mm hmmm. I think being retriggered. It's
going to be a big one, being retriggered by everyday things, right,
and so it may be having some anticipatory grief around
(32:50):
going back to work. That is it's normal, right, It's
it's it is normal in general. It is heightened in
this setting because COVID hasn't gone way, right, and because
we have this additional layer around the injustice and and
still navigating what life looks like as we embark on
kind of rewriting some of the fabric of our society, right,
(33:11):
and so we may not be sure how we're going
to be treated if we walk into the grocery store
or other spaces. Right, all of those things creates anticipatory
group but also some anxiety around that. But knowing that
the anxiety comes with the grief, right, the loss of normality,
loss of the norms, loss of structure, all of those things.
I think being acutely aware of what our triggers are
(33:34):
and knowing that those can change, we have been removed,
particularly thinking about our kids. Are even adults who generally
have let's say society or situational based triggers. They've likely
not been encountering those triggers because they've been at home
where most folks may not experience those triggers that they
experience in the workplace or in school or just out
(33:54):
in society in general. So we've not had to practice
our coping mechanisms around them, and so we might feel
ill equipped or be compensate right in the face of
those and so again that's another regrieving or retrigger. I
think other pieces around heightened anxiety, we're already seeing some
impacts of social licensation isolation on increased suicidality. I think
(34:19):
that UM and many of the reports are indicating this
that the next wave of this pandemic is going to
be on the mental health front. It's already here. We
haven't even talked about the ways our kids are grieving,
in the ways that they are missed, in the sheer
amount of under the level of under resources right where
(34:39):
we are under resourced to help kids in general with
understanding the language and what grief looks like for them.
And so I think those are all things that we
will have to grapple with sooner rather than later, because
we've not we have been so inundated with just being
safe that we haven't even had an opportunity to be well,
(35:00):
And so I think that we have we're going to
have to re emerge that what does it look like
to do more than survive? Because that's where we have been.
We have been in survival mode right as people trying
to stay safe from COVID as black and brown people
in this country. What happens when we have to go
back to day to day functioning, whatever that looks like,
and we're expected to really produce them to thrive and
(35:22):
we don't have the coping skills to do so we
don't even know what that looks like anymore. Those are
the things that I'm concerned about from a very real,
tangible perspective. Yeah. Absolutely, so. Are there any additional resources
you share LASS with us last time, But are there
any new resources or things that you think people might
want to check out given what we talked about today?
(35:45):
Mm hmmm um. And so I think that being connected
with NAMI, so the National Alliance Come Mental Illness, they
have and can access resource groups such as support groups
all over the country. The Association for Death Education Counselors
that for clinicians, but to be trained in in doing
some grief work as well as to identify UH clinicians
(36:08):
who are trained in grief work. So UM, I also
have a book in a in a training series coming
out called The Gift of Grief UM. The workbook actually
is free and available already. The book will be out
shortly UM where we will we will be doing some
of the work around training clinicians as well as parents
and educators on recognizing grief in the workplace, in the
(36:29):
school environment, in in clinical practice. And so I think
one of the best things that we can do is
to be able from a personal perspective to really do
the work UM, to identify what your lost history is,
what you're coping strategy, is your trauma history, so that
you can get the support that you need UM. And
from a clinical perspective, we have to build a capacity.
(36:50):
For a very long time, clinicians have been saying, I
don't do grief work, and my response has always been,
if you work with people, you do grief work. That
is being called to roost now UM, and we are
scrambling to get educated and to get trained. Now is
the time to do that UM. And so looking at
some of these programs UM, either through universities or UM.
(37:12):
Some of the formal other programs in grief I think
are going to be important for us to access great
and of course we will include all of those resources
in our show notes. And where can we find you?
Dr Robinson? What are your social media handles as well
as your website? Absolutely so, I am Dr a Jetta
on Facebook, dcor a Jetta Robinson Instagram and missa Jetta
(37:32):
on Twitter and a Jetta Robinson dot com is my
website perfect. Thank you so much for joining us again
and for sharing your wealth of knowledge. I appreciate it.
Thank you so much for doing this work and for
having music guest. I'm so glad Dr Robinson was able
to join us again this week. Don't forget to visit
the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot Com
(37:54):
slash Session one sixty two to learn more about her art,
to grab a copy of her workbook, and please share
your takeaways with us on social media using the hashtag
tb G in session. If you're looking for a therapist
in your area, be sure to check out our therapist
directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory.
(38:16):
And if you want to continue digging, into this topic
and connect with some other sisters in your area. Come
on over and join us in the Yellow Couch Collective
where we take a deeper dive into the topics from
the podcast and just about everything else. You can join
us at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash y
c C. Thank you all so much for joining me
(38:36):
again this week. I look forward to continue in this
conversation with you all real soon. Take good care,
M hm okay. Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast,
a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all
the small decisions we can make to become the best
(00:21):
possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard
and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more
information or to find a therapist in your area, visit
our website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While
I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast,
(00:42):
it is not meant to be a substitute for a
relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks
so much for joining me for such an one sixty
two of the Erapy for Black Girls Podcast. Much of
what we've been experiencing in various ways over the past
(01:05):
couple of months is grief. Grief related to the loss
of loved ones, our previous way of life, and our
ideas about what would look like. To help us dig
a little deeper into what grief looks like. Giving our
current state of affairs, Dr a Jetta Robinson returns with
us as a guest. Dr Robinson is a licensed clinical professional, counselor,
(01:30):
trauma and grief expert. First generation, trauma and poverty disruptor.
She is the founder and executive director of Friends and
Transition Counseling Services, a trauma centered mental health practice located
in Bethesda, Maryland. She's also the CEO of Legacy Wellness Group,
a conglomerate of enterprises dedicated to promoting generational wealth, education,
(01:54):
and healing. Dr Robinson and I chatted about our collective
sense of grief, how our rituals around grief have been upbended,
the importance of processing symbolic losses, and her thoughts about
the work that will need to be done on the
other end of the pandemic. If you hear something that
resonates with you while listening, please remember to share it
(02:17):
with us on social media using the hashtag tv g
in session. My apologies in advance as we did have
some tech issues with this interview. Here's our conversation. Thank
you so much for being back with us today, Dr Robinson,
Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, I am
very happy that you were able to join us again. Um,
(02:40):
you joined us for session thirty one of the podcasts,
and so it feels very timely to have you back,
given that it feels like much of what we have
been dealing with in tw is grief. Absolutely. I think
one of the things that is really profound for me
is that for the first time in a very long time,
I think we're all experience thing or noticing the collective
(03:01):
grief that we're experiencing that doesn't always have to relate
with people dying that's happening, but we're recognizing that grief
manifests as a result of other experiences as well, and
I think that's opening up a dialogue that we haven't
had capacity to have in a while. Yeah, you talked
about that a lot on your last visit. You know
that grief is much more than just us losing loved ones.
(03:24):
Can you talk a little bit about some of those
symbolic losses? Absolutely? So. I was also want to say
that grief is a universal experience, but that is unique
for each of us, and so we will navigate a
variety of spaces, nonlinear processes that are triggered by not
just the death of a loved one, but some of
these day to day losses that we experienced, such as
(03:47):
things are really being amplified right now because of this
pandemic and some of the racial injustices that are occurring,
such as loss of safety, both emotional, psychological and for
some physical as well, loss of stability, loss of routine,
loss of some of these milestones, of anniversaries. Some are
experiencing loss of control, loss of income, loss of identity.
(04:09):
All of those are symbolic losses. And here's the thing.
The body doesn't know that the loss of symbolic. It
grieves the same as if the loss is physical. And
so it's so importantly because I often hear people minimize
their losses because no one died, right, And so I
think that is an it's an unfair comparison to make.
(04:30):
It is a unique experience, and the body is going
to do grief work regardless of what the trigger is.
And so that's important for us to just know one
understands that it's such an important point. Can you say
a little bit more about how grief sometimes shows up
in our body? Absolutely, and so it can show up
physically in our body, and oftentimes that is what first
alerts us that something isn't okay, is that we are
(04:53):
physically feeling it. We might feel paying in our stomach,
it might be some gi issues such uh, just normal pain, right,
what feels like issued digesting food it maybe you know
the think he's like diarrhea, things like that, we feel
it in our choice. Even numbness in extremities is pretty common,
chest pain, micrains, loss of memory, concentration, all of those things.
(05:20):
Even we've seen folks present with respiratory issues right that
feel like they are physical or biological in nature, but
then really be cyclosmatic complaints as a result of both
brief and trauma, right. And so the body scores all
of that, especially if we're in a prolonged activated state
like we have been in this pandemic that's now followed
(05:43):
up with the racial injustice and the rest of occurring.
All of those things are heightened states of being which
requires the body to operate on a very different level,
which often means that we are heightened cortisol levels, which
is never great. That we're on the body right physically
and psychologically. So all of those things are responses to
(06:05):
both greef and trauma that we may not necessarily code
of briefings. Mm hmmm. Yeah. And you know, as I'm
listening to you talk, I am finding myself overwhelmed, and
I think it goes back to this this collective grief
that you were talking about, right, So many of us
have been sheltering in place or at least you know,
modified connecting with others for quite some time now. Lots
(06:30):
of people have lost loved ones. We have lost really
all sense of normalcy at this point, and like you mentioned,
just continuing racial injustices. And so I'm wondering, what does
processing all of this grief even look like compared to
maybe when you would maybe just lose a job, but
(06:50):
other things are going okay in your life. Yeah, And
so I think that the ambiguous nature of laws, right,
and that it's so there's really no domain of our
life that is an impact normally, you know, when our
personal life is going to you know, tacking to hanvest
it right automatically in the dumpster because of things that
(07:13):
are happening, we're usually able to you know, go to
work and disconnect from that and block it out. Well,
we have we're doing all of that in in our homes, right,
many of us are or we're going into spaces office
spaces that aren't feeling space and that aren't we're grieving
there as well, right, We are triggered there as well.
So there's no escape, and so even though we don't
(07:35):
typically want to use escapism as a coping mechanism, it
does minimize that feeling of overwhelmed because we're not constantly
having to encounter it and grapple with it. We can
you know, do some of the grief work and walk
away from it so that it isn't just overwhelming totally
encompassing experience. And that's what we're seeing is that there's
no there's no release, right, There's no relief from what's
(07:58):
happening in there's no end in sight, right. I think
that is also compounding it. And so our normal things
that we might use, such as you know, disconnecting and
hanging out with friends or you know, going to the
movies or other ways that we're able to just modulate
the amount of emotions we're having to contend with. We
don't have those resources right now. They're not available to
(08:21):
us in the ways that they were. And actually on
the other end, right, is that we now have this
over stimulation of things that's actually not allowing us to
check out, right, And so we're engaged in social media
in a way that even though we were on social
media before, we usually have breaks because we had to
go do something right, or go be somewhere or at
you know whatever, it might be, hit in the car,
(08:43):
what have you. There was these breaks in that exposure
that now we're just being flooded, right, And many of
us didn't have great boundaries around or or um maybe
the insight that we needed or awareness that we needed
are around what our boundaries are around how much we consume,
right or the things that we do to help reregulate ourselves.
(09:05):
We are kind of just managing it in really I
think a distancing kind of way, right, distancing ourselves from
the trigger by being busy with people, with things, with work, whatever.
And now all of those things that we normally use
to cope out really available in the same way, right,
So we're having to relearn that as well. So that's
(09:25):
one of my concerns is that we're seeing more complex grief,
which is often a result of traumatic experiences and cumulative
and compounded Greek experience is like what many in the
black and indigenous people of color groups are experiencing as
a result of repeat exposures. Right. My concern is that
one it it is occurring, and then too that this
(09:47):
population is disuportunately impacted but also underrepresented in the healthcare
mental health care service system, right, and so less likely
to either receive treatment or receive culturally comm to care.
And then the amount of clinicians we have that are
actually trying to treat complex trauma in this population, because
I'm really I am concerned about what this all means
(10:10):
for the overall hope and healing for this particular population,
which I'm remember of, right, and so I'm aware of
being you know, I'm not unaffected by all of these things, right, right, Yeah,
I echo your concern there, and just you know, I'm
thinking about, like, even if you didn't necessarily come into
this with different layers of trauma, it definitely feels like
(10:33):
there's enough going on now that would yeah, it would,
it would it would trigger the complex trauma. Yeah, yeah,
So what kinds of things do you feel like we
might be able to do well? What kinds of resources
maybe should we be trying to kind of store within
ourselves to try to work through some of this grief again,
(10:53):
because it is not kind of your simple grief, and
it's not happening simple being that there's no violent or
traumatic component to it. Given that that is not the case.
I think that it is so so important that we
give ourselves permission to seek professional support. I think that
that is going to be more important now than it
has ever been. Is that we are I think, real
with ourselves about what our coping strategies are. Some of
(11:15):
them they aren't working for us right now, right, and
so being able to kind of evaluate and be honest
about where we need support. I think we are so
used to helping others. This goes for us clinicians, but
also for everyday people. We're so used to helping others
that we haven't really cultivated a habit of receiving support.
And so when people are asking you how you're doing,
(11:37):
we're so used to saying I'm fine. So we're not
even telling the story or naming the thing that we're
struggling with, right, And so that's gonna be a big
part of it. A big part of grief work is
just naming the thing. Grief and trauma work is naming
the injury, the womb, wherever you the feelings, right, and
so that is going to be important. A lot of
times in grief work, we do this through narrative work
(11:59):
or storytelling it's important that we have spaces to do
that that aren't triggering to other people. And so one
of the reasons that we want to create the habit
of talking about it is so that we don't do
the verbal vomit and that becomes overwhelming to whoever is
on the receiving end, because we've been storing up the
story that whoever listens longest gets it right. And so
(12:21):
if we're able to do that more often, whether it
be actually talking to people or support groups or journaling,
that we have a space to get it out so
it can metabolize in a place outside of our body,
so that we can make sense of it in a
way that isn't just holding onto it. And so that
piece is really really important again because if we hold
(12:44):
it, it it literally stores in our body and it affects
other It affects us on a global level. Right, finding
ways to be connected to the people who are good
for you, good in your life, and if we don't
have them, be intentional about seeking those communities and relationships
even in this socially distant space that is still possible,
utilizing technology, online, offline groups, um phone, things of that nature,
(13:10):
and so really being creative and leaning into that and
then in the name of loss, in the interests of
honoring that that we've lost, naming it, seeking support around
those experiences, as well as finding a way to find
meaning in that and not in the loss itself, but
in what life looks like afterwards. And this is the
(13:31):
part that is so important to the grief and healing work.
But that for some of us feels like it's escaping
us because our everyday world is changing. So how do
I find meaning in life post loss when I don't
even know what life looks like? And so in that instance,
what does it look like today? What are the things
that you can do or choose to not do today
(13:52):
that honors what you've lost? And so sometimes for some
of us, that's giving ourselves permission to not do things
that actually don't serve us anymore. We do them because
we're so used to doing them when we do them,
because of expectations around doing them right. This might be saying,
you know, today I actually the mental health to day
from my job, and yes I'm working from home, but
(14:14):
today I cannot do this work. And that may be
the best way you can honor where you are in
your grief journey today and tomorrow might present itself with
something new. What are the routines and the rhythms rather,
that you can re establish in your life based on
what your body and emotions are telling you that you need, right,
And so I've been helping clients create these routines that
(14:37):
create some predictability about their day because there's so much
that they know more that it's really important that we
find those when we can, because the essence of trauma
is a loss of safety, including the loss of routines, right,
And so the ways that we can capture those things
is really important to our overall sense of self. Yeah,
(14:59):
you know that remind as me as something you share
the last time you were here, just about how grief
often strikes the hardest at night, right when things have
kind of calmed down for the day and you know,
you're more kind of alone with your thoughts. But now
then night and day really kind of run together, and
it kind of feels hard to know when is cutting
off time, so to speak. I'm wondering if you're seeing
(15:20):
any differences in that I'm seeing it just to be
more pervasive, and it feels so intrusive because it's happening.
It's certainly still happening at night, because that's still when
we're most quiet, most still in your brains, like, hey,
you have time, you're available. Let's let's experience that or
let's work through that. But now, because we're not so
distracted by busy, right, whether it be our commute or extracurriculars,
(15:45):
whatever it is, the body is like, oh, we have time, right,
we're available, and so it feels intrusive because it catches
up off scar because we're doing something as monotonous is
washing dishes, um, we're not using the same kind of
capacity that we might be on when we were at
work or what have you, and so the body is
attempting to do repaired to work whenever it feels like
(16:07):
there's resources that can divert to doing that. And so
we're just seeing it happen, and combined with the fact
that we're exposed to stimuli because we're online, we're watching
the news, we're in these Facebook groups, were on Instagram,
all of these things is keeping us very much grounded
in the triggers, and so it makes sense that we're
being flooded throughout the day as well. Something else that
(16:29):
I believe has been contributing to our grief and trauma.
Is continuing to consume videos and stories about black people
dying at the hands of the police. Can you share
a little bit about the impact that might have on us?
And so we're consuming these this content throughout the day
that actually is negatively impacting us, right, and so it's
creating what we call a vicarious trauma response just by
(16:53):
the consumption of watching the videos or reading the articles
that detailed the deaths of the people, right the people
that we've lost, whether it be to COVID or due
to some of the racial and police brutality that's you know,
being amplified right now. And so that certainly is happening
because again, even if you aren't watching the video and
you're reading the stories or reading the Facebook post or
(17:16):
things like that, your body creates an image of what
you've heard, what you've seen, and it stores it in
your brain and your body. And so i vicarious trauma
or secondary trauma is created anytime we're hearing, watching, or
experiencing trauma through a means other than direct witnessing and victimization.
So it doesn't have to happen to you through secondary
(17:37):
vicarious exposure, you can develop the same symptoms of post
traumatic stress disorder. And so we've got to be mindful
of our own mental health and wellness as you honor
the lives that are being lost. You can bear witness
to to seeking justice without being witnessed to their injury
into their death. This is the point that I really
struggle with because I of course know that oftentimes it
(17:58):
doesn't feel like we can and even begin to get justice,
especially in the cases of these racial incidents, right, because
if there is not video, and so then in the
attempt to call attention to it and make sure if
something happens, people are sharing the video everywhere, right, And
I don't think that we always think about how psychologically
(18:18):
impactful ideas for us videos and stories and you know,
all in the call for justice. Absolutely it is traumatic,
It is absolutely traumatic. It is another piece that is
it's compounded by this race based component, right, because we
know history and president events tell us that if we
(18:40):
aren't advocating, right, and that that feels like the bearing
witness part, then other people will look at this video
and see something very different. And so we have felt
a responsibility to to witness, right, so that we can
be preservers of justice right, so that we can advocate,
and we do that by knowing. And so I think
(19:01):
also part of it is in in our own way,
wanting to make sure that that person that we've lost,
that they weren't alone, that their their life has meaning,
and we mistake that by by thinking that we have
to witness the thing that occurred right in order to
be able to fully tell their stories are fully seek
(19:21):
justice for them. Because there's such discrepancy in the way
these events are rules right or handled with the police,
and the way that they're covered in the media, and
so we have been become responsible for shaping their narrative
because we can't rely on those that we should be
able to. At least it's the feeling we can't rely
(19:42):
on the stories that are being told about us and
our loved ones and are those that we identify with,
because they have consistently misused the narrative. They've consistently mistold
the stories right, and that has been a contributing factor
to the miscarriage of justice. Hmm. Absolutely. So the other
(20:02):
thing that has been really upended throughout the coronavirus is
that we are not able to gather to send a
loved one off. You know, we love a good homegoing
service right when we have had to either forego that
all together or they look completely different. So can you
talk a little bit about how the change in that
(20:24):
ritual that we are used to is also impact and grief.
Mm hmm. Yeah, it is so complex. Again, I feel
like I keep using that word, but it's the best
way to describe it. The ambiguous nature and disconnect that
many are feeling in these funerals or rituals is profound.
I had a client. I'm going to blend some of
them together for the sake of confidentiality, but imagine kind
(20:47):
of being at a funeral for your grandmother and not
being able to console your mother because of a need
to keep her safe, and thus denying both of you
the comfort of touch and togetherness that we thrive on
contact emotionally and physically. We're relational being, but we're having
to choose between feeling connected and being safe. It's a
natural the body and the brain. They don't understand the
(21:09):
deprivation that we are required to maintain in the the
name of safety. The body is trained to survive, and
so what my concern is is that we are actively
and intentionally social social distancing. But it's desynthesizing ourselves with
repeated isolation and deprivation of touch and connectedness and community
(21:30):
that I think is going to further impact our ability
to emotionally regulate. We're already seeing this. We're seeing heightened
stimulation seeking behaviors such as eating and you know, consumption
of television and shopping, and so we're coping in other
ways because we're trying to connect. Right, We're seeking stimulation
because we've numbed ourselves against the disconnect and being able
(21:51):
to really be fully present with our loved ones and
honoring what's already a very difficult life transition of death,
a loss of job, or whatever it might be. And
so I'm concerned about that disconnect that we're having to
impose in the ways that we are training ourselves to
not be present because we can't be right um in
a full body experience way, because we have to disconnect
(22:14):
the physical from the emotional in order to remember to
maintain six ft of distance at a funeral. It is
a very unnatural thing. And so my concerns as doing
grief and trauma work is the reintegration component that I
believe will create some retriggering when we do have you know,
these delayed memorials that people are already looking forward to
our planning because they feel like the ones that they
(22:36):
did via zoom didn't do their love one justice or
they still need to do the in person when whenever
it's safe to do so. But the desensitization and the disconnect,
I think it's going to create a retriggering of mourning
and thus more complex trauma as we begin to reconcile
that we've actually the body has already gone through these feelings,
(22:58):
but we disconnected ourselves from it because we've had to um.
And so what happens when we attempt to reintegrate that
right and do we actually feel safe, are we able
to engage or will it become this a performative expression
component that leaves us feeling numb and disconnected all over again.
And so the reintegration of that not only traumon erat
(23:18):
a bit healing pieces where I'm kind of most concerned
about what that means for us long term. So I'm wondering,
when you are talking, when clients are maybe even for
people who are listening, should there maybe be a second
thought about whether there should be a more public gathering
when it's safe for us together if you've already had
like the Zoom memorial or something m H. I think people,
(23:42):
I think people need that UM, and so I have
continued to encourage clients to UM continue to plan those
but I have encouraged them to still do the work now. UM.
For some folks, because they haven't had the physical gathering
or they never even had a funeral, the loss isn't
actually real because COVID made it hard to see that
person anyway. And so I think that is going to
(24:04):
come full circle. I think preparing for that to be
a regrieving and retrigging experience is going to be important.
But thinking about what are the rituals and the grieving
traditions that we can still engage in. Right at the
core of some of those rituals or traditions is a purpose.
Can we identify what the purposes and still do that
(24:26):
in a different way? And so we have to reimagine
the ways that we can do the honoring and the
memorializing in the meantime right because I think not doing
it or not preparing ourselves for having to redo it
and that all of those feelings will feel brand new again.
Is preparing us to be really infected in ways that
we just can't anticipate, right, And so I think if
(24:49):
you can seek support again formally and informally, do that, now,
do the online gatherings, If you can do authentic check
ins and listening, how are you able to honor your
loved ones life today and what that means for your
life to the best of your ability. I think going
through those tasks is going to be really really important
because I would hate for someone to encounter those things
(25:12):
for the first time at that second memorial or whatever
it might be. Again, I'm concerned about the complexity and
the compounded factors that are likely to her mm hmmm. Yeah.
And I think the other thing, you know, kind of
going back to our earlier conversation about the fact that
grief is not just the loss of a loved one,
I think it is difficult for people to sometimes conceptualize
(25:35):
these other like symbolic lasses like you mentioned, because there
are so many rituals around the laws of a loved one, right,
Like we know the thing to do are the things
to do, and for more symbolic losses, there aren't those
same rituals or traditions. Are there things that you would
suggest that people can maybe facilitate for themselves or with
their support system or with their therapists as a way
(25:57):
to have some tradition and ritual around these symbolic losses. Yeah,
and so a lot of these are around. You know,
if it's a loss of a relationship, there's things that
we can do. We lose parts of ourselves and relationships
even when they're good, right, and so there's a reclaiming
process that we can go through. There's a self discovery
(26:18):
or rediscovery process. You know, there's a cleansing process that's
a part of rituals in mourning when they're symbolic. That
can apply to a variety of different losses. It really
depends on what the losses and what we're wanting to
maybe restore or renew. I think identifying what we want
life to look like for ourselves, what are the things
(26:39):
that are potential barriers and being able to do kind
of our own self work. Sometimes we have a lot
of guilt. That's actually a very common emotion and shame around.
You know, if we lost our job right during this pandemic,
there's a lot of shame in how much of our
identity is wrapped in that job, and so what are
the way or sometimes we stay to the job too long, right,
(27:01):
or we feel like we have given our best years
to a job that didn't value us or whatever, And
so one honoring that that sense of loss, but also
giving yourself permission to reimagine the ways your skill sets
or your passions are still alive and and can be
kind of recreated in different experiences. Right, but we still
(27:22):
have to read those losses, and so I think giving
yourself permission to not discount the symbolic loss and go
through the normal mourning process like you live with the
physical loss, and then what does life look like post that?
I think COVID is making that interesting for us because
we just don't know what the day to day is
going to look like. But there are still things that
we can do, um whether they be going back for
(27:44):
additional training or for some of us, it's giving us
space to be and to not do for the very
first time in our life and being able to be
okay with that that Sometimes that's that might be exactly
what we need if we have the room to explore
that at because we have been doing for so long
that what might it look like if we're actually still
(28:05):
on purpose. What might we find and learn about ourselves
about what we actually desire for us when we're able
to do that? And so I think that's a unique
process for everyone, and giving yourself the space to explore
that with someone that can do grief work with you. So,
you know, the other thing that I have been thinking
about throughout our conversation is just how you know, like
(28:26):
you mentioned, we are all experiencing some level of collective
grief related to everything that is happening, and how a
lot of our bandwidths are very low at this point, right,
and so usually you know, within your sphere of support,
you know, somebody is kind of wonderful tank and so
they can be there a little bit more for other people,
(28:46):
right and now, probably most of us are operating at
a half tank or lower. And so I'm wondering if
you have ideas about how we can continue to take
care of ourselves so that we can continue to show up,
but also how we might be able to stay at
boundaries when we want to be able to be there
to support somebody who might be greeting yeah again, I'm
(29:08):
a big fan of therapy, your faith, exercise. Those are
all different things that you can do to take care
of yourself. Journaling, um, some of the normal coping stuff, right,
but also giving yourself permission to disconnect. Right, So giving
yourself some downtime, again, not when you're sick and worn out,
but again in a in a way to restore yourself. Um.
(29:31):
Giving yourself space for creative things. Storytelling, music and art
are really restorative practices therapeutically, both formally as well as informally.
I think that listening to your body. I talk about
routines a lot, but I think in this space we
have to be intentional about rhythms. And so given that
our day to day is changing, the routines might feel
(29:54):
outside of our reach. But if we listen to the
rhythm of your body and just really getting connected but self.
Your body tells you what it eats. And sometimes it's
a midday nap, right, and not as a way to escape,
but because we actually didn't sleep well last night. Because
that gets disrupted too in the midst of grief and trauma, right,
And so listening to those rhythms is really important. Sometimes
(30:16):
your body needs movement you feel it because your hips
feel like they're backing up, you lose sensation in your toes.
You need to move your body listen to that rhythm.
And so those are some self care things that I
think are important. I also think giving us again, a
lot of this is mindset. We have been trained in
condition to be available and accessible. That actually isn't what
(30:38):
most people need from you. People benefit from you having
good boundaries, and sometimes it is our lack of boundaries
that keeps people in a place where they feel co
dependent on us, because we have a need to feel needed, right,
And so I think boundaries are your best friend. They
have to be, And it's not about creating a barrier
to access in you. It's about creating a boundary around
(30:59):
your resources and conserving that so that it can be
used more effectively for those who actually needed, including yourself. Right,
creating a boundary around access, whether it be you act
giving information or receiving information. I think boundaries are really
really important. They get a bad rap, but they are
so important for keeping you intact. I think those are
(31:21):
some of the things that we want to be intentional about.
Is intentionally being not available so that you can refill
your own cup is important, especially because none of us
are unaffected. I also think that it's really really important
that we are mindful about the ways we are evaluating
the way other people are coping or dealing, because I've
(31:43):
seen friendships unravel in the midst of trauma and chaos
because we are not clear that somebody is in it
with us or they're not available in the ways we
need them to. But if we can just remember that
we're all doing the best that we can and our
grief looks different, does I mean we're not doing it.
It just means it's different, and it's important that we
(32:04):
don't impose our values on other people's great process. Mm hmmm.
So several times throughout this conversation, Dr Robinson, you said,
this is what I'm concerned about on the other side
of this, right, And so, of course I'm not asking
you necessarily to read into our future, but I am
curious about some of the things that you think we
(32:26):
will have to be making sure we're paying attention to
as we kind of come out of sheltering in place
and you know, things start to open up a little
bit more. What kinds of things do you think we
do need to be paying attention to or might expect
related to grief. Mm hmmm. I think being retriggered. It's
going to be a big one, being retriggered by everyday things, right,
and so it may be having some anticipatory grief around
(32:50):
going back to work. That is it's normal, right, It's
it's it is normal in general. It is heightened in
this setting because COVID hasn't gone way, right, and because
we have this additional layer around the injustice and and
still navigating what life looks like as we embark on
kind of rewriting some of the fabric of our society, right,
(33:11):
and so we may not be sure how we're going
to be treated if we walk into the grocery store
or other spaces. Right, all of those things creates anticipatory
group but also some anxiety around that. But knowing that
the anxiety comes with the grief, right, the loss of normality,
loss of the norms, loss of structure, all of those things.
I think being acutely aware of what our triggers are
(33:34):
and knowing that those can change, we have been removed,
particularly thinking about our kids. Are even adults who generally
have let's say society or situational based triggers. They've likely
not been encountering those triggers because they've been at home
where most folks may not experience those triggers that they
experience in the workplace or in school or just out
(33:54):
in society in general. So we've not had to practice
our coping mechanisms around them, and so we might feel
ill equipped or be compensate right in the face of
those and so again that's another regrieving or retrigger. I
think other pieces around heightened anxiety, we're already seeing some
impacts of social licensation isolation on increased suicidality. I think
(34:19):
that UM and many of the reports are indicating this
that the next wave of this pandemic is going to
be on the mental health front. It's already here. We
haven't even talked about the ways our kids are grieving,
in the ways that they are missed, in the sheer
amount of under the level of under resources right where
(34:39):
we are under resourced to help kids in general with
understanding the language and what grief looks like for them.
And so I think those are all things that we
will have to grapple with sooner rather than later, because
we've not we have been so inundated with just being
safe that we haven't even had an opportunity to be well,
(35:00):
And so I think that we have we're going to
have to re emerge that what does it look like
to do more than survive? Because that's where we have been.
We have been in survival mode right as people trying
to stay safe from COVID as black and brown people
in this country. What happens when we have to go
back to day to day functioning, whatever that looks like,
and we're expected to really produce them to thrive and
(35:22):
we don't have the coping skills to do so we
don't even know what that looks like anymore. Those are
the things that I'm concerned about from a very real,
tangible perspective. Yeah. Absolutely, so. Are there any additional resources
you share LASS with us last time, But are there
any new resources or things that you think people might
want to check out given what we talked about today?
(35:45):
Mm hmmm um. And so I think that being connected
with NAMI, so the National Alliance Come Mental Illness, they
have and can access resource groups such as support groups
all over the country. The Association for Death Education Counselors
that for clinicians, but to be trained in in doing
some grief work as well as to identify UH clinicians
(36:08):
who are trained in grief work. So UM, I also
have a book in a in a training series coming
out called The Gift of Grief UM. The workbook actually
is free and available already. The book will be out
shortly UM where we will we will be doing some
of the work around training clinicians as well as parents
and educators on recognizing grief in the workplace, in the
(36:29):
school environment, in in clinical practice. And so I think
one of the best things that we can do is
to be able from a personal perspective to really do
the work UM, to identify what your lost history is,
what you're coping strategy, is your trauma history, so that
you can get the support that you need UM. And
from a clinical perspective, we have to build a capacity.
(36:50):
For a very long time, clinicians have been saying, I
don't do grief work, and my response has always been,
if you work with people, you do grief work. That
is being called to roost now UM, and we are
scrambling to get educated and to get trained. Now is
the time to do that UM. And so looking at
some of these programs UM, either through universities or UM.
(37:12):
Some of the formal other programs in grief I think
are going to be important for us to access great
and of course we will include all of those resources
in our show notes. And where can we find you?
Dr Robinson? What are your social media handles as well
as your website? Absolutely so, I am Dr a Jetta
on Facebook, dcor a Jetta Robinson Instagram and missa Jetta
(37:32):
on Twitter and a Jetta Robinson dot com is my
website perfect. Thank you so much for joining us again
and for sharing your wealth of knowledge. I appreciate it.
Thank you so much for doing this work and for
having music guest. I'm so glad Dr Robinson was able
to join us again this week. Don't forget to visit
the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot Com
(37:54):
slash Session one sixty two to learn more about her art,
to grab a copy of her workbook, and please share
your takeaways with us on social media using the hashtag
tb G in session. If you're looking for a therapist
in your area, be sure to check out our therapist
directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory.
(38:16):
And if you want to continue digging, into this topic
and connect with some other sisters in your area. Come
on over and join us in the Yellow Couch Collective
where we take a deeper dive into the topics from
the podcast and just about everything else. You can join
us at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash y
c C. Thank you all so much for joining me
(38:36):
again this week. I look forward to continue in this
conversation with you all real soon. Take good care,
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