Play as Mindfulness Practice with Chief Play Officer TJ Matton

Want to incorporate more play into your world? You’re in the right place! Play isn’t just for kids. It’s a biological necessity that can transform your mental well-being and even help manage mental health symptoms like hypervigilance and anxiety.

And we’re lucky to have play expert TJ Matton back for this second episode in our two-part series on play. If you haven’t already, listen to last week’s episode for fundamentals about the science of play; and here we get practically applied. How can you increase play in your life? Listen (or read on) for answers.

Episode Highlights:

• Foundations of Play: Play is essential for learning and development, helping us build new neural pathways.
• Play as a Mindfulness Practice: Integrating play into daily life to enhance mindfulness and personal growth.
• Managing Hypervigilance: Practical exercises to use play as a tool for managing hypervigilance.
• Mindfulness and Emotional Reactivity: Shifting from emotional reactivity to curiosity through play.
• Types of Play: Exploring different play patterns and how to integrate them into everyday activities.

Common Questions:

• How can play help with mindfulness?
• What are some practical ways to integrate play into daily life?
• How can play be used to manage hypervigilance?

Notable Quotes:

• “Play is how we learn new ways of thinking, being, and operating. It’s necessary for growth and evolution.”
• “Focusing on our enjoyment is never wasted; it’s an embodiment practice.”
• “Hypervigilance can be a play buddy. Opt into it in safe environments to transform it from a suffering experience to an impulse for growth.”

Guest Information:

TJ Matton: Founder and Chief Play Officer of the Playful Revolution. You can find more information about TJ and her work at theplayfulrevolution.com and on Instagram at @theplayfulrevolution.

Next Episode Teaser: Join us next week for a conversation with another incredible expert about stuckness and mental health. Don’t miss it!

Special Offer: Are you feeling overwhelmed by conflicting priorities? Struggling to achieve the results you need in your organization or career? It’s time to unblock your inner strategist. Join my community membership program, designed for aspiring and practicing strategic operators who think differently. Right now, membership is $100 off for the full year, just in time to help with your Q3, Q4 transition and ramp up for 2025. Visit findrc.co/ubyis to learn more.

Stay Connected: Thank you for joining and listening. I can’t wait to hear what resonated with you in this episode. Subscribe to our newsletter at findrc.co/newsletter to stay updated. You can find me, Sara Lobkovich, pretty much everywhere online. Feel free to contact me at [e-mail]. If you have other Thinkydoers in your work world, please pass this episode along. We appreciate your referrals, mentions, shares, and reviews.

Find full show notes and transcript at http://saralobkovich.com/thinkydoers-pod.

Mentioned in this episode:

Join the Strategic Clarity Workshop Waitlist for Early Bird Access

Are you ready to not just set goals, but actually change behavior to achieve them without overwhelm, shame, blame, or overthinking. Join me for the Strategic Clarity Workshop. A No-BS hands-on experience, where you'll turn your vision into a reality proof plan for...

Episode Transcript

Sara (00:01):
Welcome to the Thinkydoers podcast.
Thinkydoers are those of us drawn todeep work where thinking is working.
But we don't stop there.
We're compelled to move the work frominsight to idea, through the messy
middle, to find courage and confidenceto put our thoughts into action.
I'm Sara Lobkovich, and I'm a Thinkydoer.

(00:23):
I'm here to help others find moresatisfaction, less frustration, less
friction, and more flow in our work.
My mission is to help changemakers likeyou transform our workplaces and world.
So, let's get started.
All right, so this is part two ofmy conversation with TJ, who is an

(00:47):
expert in a long list of things,but what we're talking about...

TJ (00:52):
Jack of all trades and master of none.

Sara (00:55):
No, I don't think that's true at all.
Listen to our first episode, andthen we can talk about mastery.

TJ (01:00):
My background is as a social worker, and I think that's part of what drives
me to this work is that my work is allstarted in social justice, and humanistic
philosophy, and feministic psychology.
So, I am a social worker, and I workas a trauma therapist and a coach.

Sara (01:14):
In our first conversation, we talked about kind of foundations of play, why
my listeners shouldn't turn this episodeoff when they hear the word "play."
And next, we're goingto say "mindfulness."
Again, don't turn it off.

TJ (01:25):
Don't turn it off.
We're reclaiming it.

Sara (01:28):
True!
So, we talked about modes of play,and then what we're going to do
today is talk about how to putthis into practice—specifically,
play as a mindfulness practice.
Which mindfulness can be challengingfor some of us, especially
folks listening to this podcast.
So, let's get nitty-gritty.
Where can we start withreintegrating play into our lives?

TJ (01:53):
So, the first thing that I think is important to pull forward from the first
conversation is that play is how we learnnew ways of thinking, being, operating.
It is how we build new neural pathways.
It is what is necessary in order for usto grow, expand, or evolve as a person.

(02:14):
We can't help but grow, expand,and evolve as a person, and so
play is this way of participatingin our growth process, right?
And play starts with choice, and sowhen we talk about combining play
and mindfulness, it starts with thequestion: What do you want to play for?
What matters to you?
And again, play starts from thisembodied sense of choice—what do you

(02:37):
care about and what matters to you?
And one of the things that Ithink is important is that like
play is not hierarchical, right?
So, I had a play challenge for myselflike two years ago where I just really
wanted more laughter in my life.
So I went on a hunt for laughter.
for laughers in my life.
And I called them slutty laughers.
It was the year of slutty laughers Iwanted to make friends because I didn't

(03:00):
grow up in a house with a ton of laughter.
I'm a trauma therapist.
So like I don't spenda ton of time laughing.
I have like my own personaltrauma stories and histories like
of being in that kind of body.
So like laughter was just not somethingthat came super naturally to me and I
want more laughter So like I was juston the hunt for like frivolous laughers

(03:20):
who kept that part of themselves.
And so that was a mindfulness practicefor me is whose laughs do I love?
What does it look likefor people laugh at?
What do people even laugh about?
Like I did not conceptually understand it.
So it became a practice for me.
And it was a time of really embodying morefrivolous play for somebody who like is
a little bit of a deeper, more meaningfulplayer, but it didn't, wasn't meaningless.

(03:43):
Right.
every time I laughed, was thispractice of you can do it, TJ.
laughter belongs in your body, right?
you can do this.
and oh my god, the way that laughtercomes so much more easily to me now.
laughing at myself, laughing ateverybody I love, laughing at,
even the people who hurt me.
like when I'm just like, oh my God, thatwas so ridiculous what they just said.

(04:04):
Can you believe it?
And I'm not hyper focused.
I'm not spiraling about it.
I'm just like, laughing it and moving on.
But that was so basedon just spending time.
Like studying frivolousness, thatfelt unfamiliar to me, right?
And so really building a mindfulnessplay practice, and again, I define play
as being engaged with something withyour enjoyment as the central focus.

(04:26):
And so when we focus on enjoyment,our enjoyment is never wasted, right?
That focusing on our enjoyment islike, is an embodiment practice,
is how can I stay as embodied andco creating moment to moment, like.
A sensation and an experience thatworks for me, that works with other

(04:48):
people, where I'm not shifting intopeople pleasing, I'm not shifting into
power, controlling the dynamic, right?
But like, how do I stay in that cocreative process with my enjoyment, right?
And so play really startswith, what do you care about?
what matters to you?
What do you, what kind ofevolution do you want to opt into?

(05:09):
And this is where play becomesa mindfulness practice.
It's like, focusing on your enjoyment.
And then how do you enjoy yourselfin the co creative growth process?
what neural pathwaysdo you want to create?
And some people are just reallygifted at frivolous play.

(05:30):
And this is really important becausefrivolous play, doesn't, helps us turn
that hyper vigilance down in our body.
It helps us, stop defending, ourselves.
Right?
Like, I was happy.
why did you do it?
Cause I liked it.
why else?
Do I need another reason?
so frivolous play and studyingfrivolous play is like super important
in helping turn hypervigilance down.

(05:52):
And similarly, serious play, right?
Helps build a lot of intentionality,a lot of focus, a lot of
meaningfulness in our life.
And I find that adults when you'rerelearning play or when you're practicing
play as a mindfulness practice, likehaving that intentionality around it,
whether that intention is frivolous orserious, helps set the container, right?

(06:13):
It's builds that quest feel, right?
Like, where are we going with this?
Particularly because for many people,we live in a play deprived culture.
So learning, relearning play, right?
You talked last time aboutthat sub threshold to right?
It's vulnerable andit's a little bit scary.
And so the only way that we're goingto be able to, stay in that edge

(06:34):
of vulnerability is knowing thatthis vulnerability matters to us.
That it's part of our bigger game, likethat this move matters to the bigger game.
And so we think about it as this is partof what I love about like the combination
of the way neurodivergents need to bepracticing play as a mindfulness assist.
We love side quests, right?

(06:54):
So each little practice is like aside quest that is for an infinite,
a more infinite sense of game.

Sara (07:01):
again, you're blowing my mind as I'm not to make this about me,
but 15 or so years into therapy,and I've never had a satisfactory
anything to try around hyper vigilancein terms of what I struggle with.
and it's just a phenomenon that I, yet,and I'm a good therapy participant,

TJ (07:23):
We're working hard..
You're doing good.
You got A+.

Sara (07:26):
Yeah.
But it, uh, probably B plus,

TJ (07:30):
but no one needs an A plus in therapy.

Sara (07:32):
nobody needs an A plus, but that phenomenon from a, patient standpoint.
There's not a lot that, that alot of therapy has to offer there.
So the idea that play is a practicethat can help with hypervigilance
is just revolutionary to

TJ (07:51):
So one of the things that I would say is a play practice around hypervigilance
is like spending time opting into it.
so go to a park or somewhere you feelsafe, like a coffee shop, somewhere
that feels familiar, and write down,either write down or study every
single detail for the purpose ofyour enjoyment, like what is every

(08:11):
single thing that intrigues me?
Every single one.
Every single one.
And because you're going to startto feel like this is what it
means to opt in to hypervigilance.
when feels good to be in that intellectualintensity, because again, if you're a top
down intellectual learner, sometimes wehold on to symptoms like hypervigilance
because we don't know what to dowith the excitement and the aliveness

(08:34):
that gets buried within that symptom.
That is actually play being like, I wantto study the shit out of life, right?
Like that's part ofwhat hypervigilance is.
It's I want to know every single fuckingthing that's in and in me and around me.
And so go do it, but opt into it, right?
opt into it.
that's a way to begin to play with thissymptom as like a play buddy, right?

(08:58):
Like how can I be a playbuddy to this symptom?
where the body starts to detanglebeing on the other end of it as a
suffering experience and insteadembraces that as as an impulse.
what if the hypervigilancewas a play buddy?
And this is why it's important to dothis in a place that feels, safe enough.
and this that part that feels safeenough, where, the body has that

(09:22):
intellectual and embodiment consent,yeah, I go to this coffee shop regularly.
Or I go to this library regularly.
Or I go, I sit in thecarpool line regularly.
Like, where is there enough of thatsafe enough for you to then step into
the hypervigilance as own play buddy?

Sara (09:41):
Yeah, it's choosing it again, This makes me think of in my own
mindfulness practice by my youngadulthood, I would describe myself
as very emotionally reactive.
And part of living to coexist with that,or shifting it because it just didn't
feel good, was learning that curiosityis an awesome play buddy for me.

(10:03):
So I can either be, anxious or reactive,or I can get curious and that's the play
buddy that I want to spend more time with.
hmm.
And so I'm hearing the same thinghere, it's like this is another,
another next step of that shiftto say, Alright, Be mindful.
what am I feeling?
Is it something I want to feel?
Is it something I don't want to feel?
And if listeners can do that, high fives!

(10:27):
Like, that's huge progress.

TJ (10:30):
know, and it's like in the reality is like, you know, we might
not care about figuring out ourhypervigilance in like the carpool
line or in the coffee shop, right?
Where we often care aboutour hypervigilance is in
you know, family dinners.
or, new social settings, back to school,like we're in the fall right now, so
back to school nights where we likewant to be building community, right?

(10:52):
And so like when we learn to optin to hypervigilance, when we start
to feel activated again in thatlike parasympathetic way, we can be
like, Oh, do I need to have that on?
is this a place that istruly feeling unsafe for me?
And if I so let's get out of here, right?
Like, ain't my place to play, right?
and if not, if this is safe enoughfor me to play, what's the play here?

(11:14):
So maybe you start studying,who has similar clothes on?
who's got the same pattern of shirts?
who looks like they would be, who'sprobably related in a secret DNA test?
Or you start making up storiesabout people, who looks like they
could fix my plumbing in my house?
And you start to turn that storymaker on, because again, this
is a big part of hypervigilance.

(11:36):
It's it's a story framework, right?
And over time, this allows us to interactand begin to look for safe social
experiences that our hypervigilanceis like looking to do, but doesn't
actually know how to do that becauseit's trained to look for danger.
And so our system has two paths, whichis to look for social connection and

(11:56):
safety, Or to look for danger, right?
And so play is this practiceof Are we safe enough to play?
And then what are we playing for?
And so hypervigilance might bea play of like, how do I play
with more belonging, right?
how do I play for comfort, right?
how do I play for ease, right?
And so again, this is part of Ithink embracing play as a mindfulness

(12:19):
practice is it's literally justsaying What am I playing for?
And I think this matters because as webegin to study play, it's vulnerable.
It's shaky.
We want to retract andretreat to patterns we know.
And so the, what do we care about?
What, what are you playingfor holds us in this place.
That's you can do this.
I believe in you to take this path.

(12:43):
you can play for a better future.
a better experience, becauseagain, play has that fight.
what are we fighting for?
Right?
and that's part, that's what we mean bymindfulness, is what are you playing for?
that is the anchor, because again,play is a choice that, and that's
what it means for, to embrace playas a mindfulness practice, is that

(13:04):
it doesn't force you to be calm.
It asks you, to be alive, toco create within the moment.

Sara (13:10):
That is so powerful for those of us who've been told that mindfulness is
sitting down and being quiet being still.
But it also, it also so firmly centersthe question of what are you playing for?
do you care about?
And that's, again, in my coaching,that's a question people are not
always spending the time To ask, thatright there, that question of what

(13:33):
might you want to play for could be arevolutionary question for some people.
So when we think about that kindof getting started, and what's
the first step that someone couldtake, where would you steer them?

TJ (13:48):
Yeah, so one of the first things I work with people to
initially begin to explore is weall have play patterns, right?
And so I often think about helpingpeople, what do you imagine
your play patterns might be?
And again, sometimes ithelps people to think back to
childhood, what did I like to do?
And again, remembering that play is notan action, but an experience, right?
I really like to play Legos.

(14:10):
Was it that you liked to accomplishthe finishing of the Lego?
Was it that you likedto put pieces together?
And begin to pull on those strings, butfind them in your everyday life, right?
And again, some of us being topdown players, some of us being more
bottom up players, where we createwithin the moment, and some of us
love, more instructional learning.

(14:31):
Some of us being more intellectualplayers, some of us being,
more storytellers, and someof us being more body players.
And so I think about, like,are you a close, like, a top
down, more closed loop player?
Are you a bottom up,more open loop player?
And then are you an intellectual player?
Where, like, you might benefit from, like,a life, as a lifelong learner, right?

(14:53):
And intellectually invigorous, right?
Are you somebody who loves, like,the heart centered, connected play?
Or are you somebody who, like, reallyneeds to kinetically engage in something?
And then just startpracticing that, right?
kinetically engage in yourbrushing of your teeth, right?
find, again, we think aboutplay as novelty and repetition.

(15:14):
So I often start people with somethingthat they do every single day.
But do it differently.
how many steps does it take youto get to the, to the mailbox?
That's an intellectual, thatcould be an intellectual play or
that could be a body play, right?
what do my feet feel like whenthey hit the ground, right?
How many of my bones can I count?

(15:35):
When they hit the ground, right?
And so even I think it's really helpfulfor people to take something that
they know they're going to do everyday and do it differently and see,
do I want to engage in this thingfrom a thinky way, from a feelie
way, or from a body way, right?
And is there a goal thatI have in mind, right?

(15:55):
I'm going to practice brushingmy teeth for two minutes
as weirdly as I can, right?
Or, do I, am I more of that,non linear explorer play?
Where like, I'm going to like, seeif my hips can brush my teeth, right?
And like, and I, because again, playis about unleashing the enjoyment.
The seeking and the co creatingof the experience of enjoyment.

(16:15):
And understanding it'sgoing to feel weird.
It's going to feel weird, it's going tofeel vulnerable, especially for people
who have had their play shamed, so webegin exploring in this way, and over
time, some people I think, it's veryclear for them, what their mindfulness
play is, what are they playing for, whileothers may need to explore play first,

(16:39):
to be like, I want more of that, right?
Again, people who are more topdown learners seem to know more
easily what they're playing for.
Bottom up players or will startplaying and then all of a sudden be
like I think I want to play for thisBut they may not know that from the
start and that's okay the goal is juststart exploring and see what it is.
Your body longs for more

Sara (16:59):
the three options that you shared, I'm all about what's our
default mode and what are our nondefault modes, what's our default
behavior and our non default behavior.
I just think those, even Makingpeople aware of those three options
of, thinking or top down and feelingor body and bottoms up, that right

(17:20):
there gives us things to play withthat we might not even thought of.
TJ, I just I'm goose bumpyat how cool your work is.
I am so grateful that youwere able to take the time.
Is there anything you would liketo share or anything I didn't
ask you that you'd like to sharebefore I let you go for the day?

TJ (17:41):
Whew!
The My work is calledthe Playful Revolution.
'Cause I believe that re embracingplay is a revolutionary experience
within our own bodies, and has thecapacity to revolutionize our culture.
I do believe that play is this path tore embodying our bodies and creating
a more equitable society and culture.

(18:03):
One where we can co create together ina more meaningful and successful way.
And so I do really deeply believe inplay and both for, because people's
joy matters and the co creatingand meaningful experience matters.
And, and I love to play.
So if anybody out here has questionsand there's free intro calls on my
website, I love to answer questions.

(18:25):
I love to clarify my work for people.
I love to help people.
Enter the work.
So don't feel hesitant if you'relistening to this to just reach
out and be like, I don't get it.
Because you're not alone, right?
Play is something that is so deprivedand We don't have a lot of language
around this So if you don't get it,just come back, just keep coming back

(18:46):
because you will Get it eventually andlet me help you get it in your being.

Sara (18:51):
Amazing.
So that's T.
J.
Matton, founder and chief playofficer of the Playful Revolution.
T.
J., I'll put your contact information inthe show notes so people can find you.
And then I just can't thank you.
This has been so much fun.

TJ (19:05):
Please write me back in a little bit and tell me what shifts for you, right?
Tell me what shifts for youafter this conversation.
I love when like it starts to clickfor people and then people get to
start thinking and experiencing like.
They're being differently.
I'm going to stalk you down in a monthor so and be like, what's , happened?

Sara (19:21):
I think one thing that comes through, is I kept thinking of the
words, don't yuck someone else's yum.
your take on play style reminds us thatno one's play style is bad unless it's
hurting someone and that's to be managed.
but we can also look at how weall play and just know we're
all different and that's okay.

(19:41):
Okay.

TJ (19:42):
And that there's a bridge between all of us.
We may not all, we may not be ableto connect easily with everyone,
but there are people that likecan be bridges between the world.
All right, friends.
I want to give a huge thank you toTJ for doing these episodes with me.
This was so much fun and I learned a ton.

(20:04):
I hope you did as well.
So TJ, thank you.
We can't wait to see youback here on Thinkydoers.
You can find more information about TJand her work at theplayfulrevolution.com.
And TJ is
@theplayfulrevolution
on Instagram, And we'll put allthose links in the show notes.
And we're going to have a conversationnext week with another incredible expert

(20:24):
about stuckness and mental health.
So be sure to come back nextweek for a continuation of our
focus on mental well being.
and then, speaking of funand healthy play buddies.

Sara (20:34):
are you feeling overwhelmed by conflicting priorities?
Are you struggling to achieve theresults that you need to in your.
Organization or in your career?
If so it's time to unblock your innerstrategist And join my community
membership program, designed foraspiring and practicing strategic

(20:55):
operators who think differently.
Right now membership is a hundred dollarsoff for the full year, just in time
for you to get help with your Q3, Q4transition and ramp up for your 2025.
And with that, you get accessto my comprehensive and popular
Creating No-BS OKRs course,which alone is valued at $495.

(21:19):
on top of that, you get a fullyear of community support and
live group sessions with me.
In this program, you will learn andpractice externalizing, clarifying
and celebrating your strategic goals.
Your strategic wins.
And your strategic learnings.
have the chance to focus ontransforming your work and your

(21:42):
career to be truly purpose focused.
Whether you are asolopreneur, a new leader.
An entrepreneur.
Or, a key contributing strategicoperator in an organization.
This program will help youmove from frustration to focus.
And from busy work tomeaningful measurable outcomes.

(22:05):
discount in place and we've gota payment plan option to make it
easier for you to get the helpyou need with your Q3 Q4 reset.
visit findrc.co/ubyis
strategist.

(22:26):
Thank you for joining and listening.
I really can't wait to hear from youabout what in this episode resonated,
so I would love to hear your feedback.
Also, don't forget to subscribe to ournewsletter at findrc.co/newsletter, so
you can hear about everything happeningall at once before the general public.

(22:47):
you can find me at SaraLobkovich pretty much everywhere.
I'm pretty sure I'm the only one.
You're always invitedto contact me by email.
The easiest one to spell issara, S A R A at Thinkydoers.com.
If you have other Thinkydoers in your workworld, please pass this episode along.

(23:08):
We really appreciate your referrals, yourmentions, your shares, and your reviews.
Thank you for tuning in today.
And I look forward to hearing thequestions this prompts for you.