November 1, 2024 • 48 mins
Dr. Eric Bailey is back with Tim Reinbott to talk about corn silage. He brings important information on silage details that producers are currently asking about. What kind of TDN does silage produce? Is it more economical than hay? What about keeping it covered? Have you ever wondered if there's a return on your investment with the efforts and costs of stockpiling forages? What about the variability of fall precipitation and forage production? Are we over-stocking cattle? Is there another way? Enjoy the discussion and ideas presented in this podcast. Learn the answer to these questions and more!
Transcript: 11-1-24 Tim's Take 29 - How Do I Feed Silage to My Cows.doc
Part One Video: https://youtu.be/tiwv0zmJuyA?feature=shared
Part Two Video: https://youtu.be/O-Q1rtmyxm0
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The Missouri Agricultural Experiment Station (MOAES) extends CAFNR research to nearly 14,000 acres across the state to meet regional research and demonstration needs of agricultural producers and natural resource managers. MOAES has a storied history of major impacts in advancing science in agriculture, food and natural resources — locally, nationally and globally. These CAFNR laboratories provide research faculty with a wide variety of real-world conditions to test and develop strategies for agricultural production based on the geographical and climatic differences of our diverse state.
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(00:00):
[♫]
Well, welcome to Tim's Take! And today our very special guest is Dr. Eric Bailey, a new Associate
Professor with MU Extension. He's our beef nutritionist. Welcome, Eric! (Dr. Eric Bailey) Hi,
(00:21):
Tim. It's good to be with you again. Thanks for having me. (Tim) Well, you know, you've
been talking about drought and what to do in... in these drought times for the last couple years,
and... but we actually had a decent hay crop this year. And that may have changed things
a little bit where we started having some hay, but as we talked about before we went on, late
(00:42):
summer was not good for us. (Eric) Absolutely. (Tim) And we don't have our pastures probably
stockpiled like... like we... like we'd like to have them, so we'll be probably feeding more
hay this year. But... but you said there's some other options, maybe not this year... possibly,
but maybe next year that we might want to start planning on? (Eric) Yeah, so you know, as part
(01:03):
of the, um... Ag Experiment Station field days that are organized across the state, you know,
I get the opportunity to interact with producers, and... and get, you know, to have really nice
one-on-one conversations and, honestly, learn from them as much as I do, you know, provide them
with my knowledge and expertise. And you know, I... when I was at the field day in Mount Vernon, I
(01:24):
was actually approached by two different gentlemen separately wanting more information about feeding
corn silage to beef cows. You know, along with our good hay crop that we had this year, we also had,
you know, bumper corn crop in a lot of parts of the state. And so what we're seeing is a market
developing where folks, cow/calf producers are buying corn silage from farmers, hauling
(01:48):
it to their farm and using that as a winter feed resource. And so, you know, I wanted to kind of
focus on some tips and things to look out for with maybe utilizing some of this corn silage. Because
you're absolutely right, pasture conditions are deteriorating pretty rapidly, but thankfully, many
folks got not only a spring cutting of hay, but also a second summer cutting of hay, so our barns
(02:12):
are filling back up. But now, there's also this supply of corn silage that's available, and the
question that's coming up is, where does it fit into this plan? And can I use some of that corn
silage to defray the use of my hay, especially if I have to get into my hay supplies early this
fall? (Tim) But now you're talking about corn silage that we... that we chop green? (Eric) Corn
(02:36):
silage that would be from the 2024 crop, yes. Not '25 planting for next year, so... (Tim) But most
of that corn's harvested, isn't it? (Eric) So most of that corn is harvested, but you know,
corn silage needs to ferment for a minimum of 30 to 60 days, and we generally start harvesting corn
silage in early August, so... (Tim) Right. (Eric) ...so the reason I think that there was a lot
(02:56):
of interest in it is that now is about the time where bunker and pits and silos are being opened
up. And... and that transacting is occurring where, you know, cow/calf producers might be
soliciting that, or farmers be marketing it to the cow/calf producers. (Tim) Because normally,
we think of corn silage is more dairy... (Eric) Absolutely. Completely agree. (Tim) ...and not so
(03:17):
much beef. So, uh... so what are some good tips? (Eric) Well, so I mean, the first thing I think,
uh... a cow/calf producer has to recognize is that you're feeding a... a feed that is, more than
likely, two parts moisture and one part water. So if you're accustomed to feeding a beef cow
30 lbs of hay per day, you're really feeding her 27 lbs of dry feed and 3 lbs of water, right? Cuz
(03:43):
even dry hay has 10% moisture. But in this case, if you were to feed a cow 30 lbs of corn silage,
you're only feeding her... you're feeding her 20 lbs of water and 10 lbs of dry feed, so you know,
making an adjustment. Second to that, right? Corn silage is usually... I mean, a rule of thumb is
that, uh... on a dry matter basis, it's half corn grain and half leaf, husk and... and cob,
(04:09):
right? So you've got half fiber/half grain. So you've got a higher nutritional value. Um... you
know, especially thinking about, you know, typical fescue hay, 50... 52... 50... maybe 55% TDN. Corn
silage is going to be 70... 72... 74% TDN, so it's going to be, you know, on an energy density basis,
(04:31):
it's going to be a lot higher, which is... can benefit! Especially, I... I think where the first
place I would deploy corn silage if I had the opportunity to buy it, and some other boxes that
I... I want to get to get checked, it's in feeding a fall calving cow who's at peak lactation, right?
Because that's... that's the weakness of the fall calving system is that we're... peak cow nutrient
(04:58):
requirements are occurring during a time of declining forage quality and forage availability.
(Tim) And that would be in late fall? (Eric) Late fall. Exactly. Yeah, late fall going into winter.
Right. So you know, try... think about trying to raise a calf and make milk on 50 TDN fescue hay
and a little bit of supplement, right? (Tim) So... so as you mentioned, you chop it in, uh... August,
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but you really want what? 60 days, you said? To ferment? (Eric) Minimum of 30 to 60. You know, and
the way that I like to describe this to producers who have not... are not familiar with the process is,
we're essentially trying to pickle this feed to preserve it, right? So what happens is,
we get it chopped. We pack it in a bunker or a silo or a bag or a pit, or even just a pile.
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Um... and what we're trying to do through this packing process is exclude oxygen. Because oxygen
is going to allow for aerobic respiration to occur, for mold, uh... stuff like nonbeneficial,
um... microbes to grow and... and spoil the feed, but if we exclude all of the oxygen, then we get
(06:06):
anaerobic (or without oxygen) fermentation occurs, and the byproduct of this fermentation are organic
acids that actually have a low pH. They're very acidic, and so that actually kills all
of the... all of the bad bugs off. And so we'll end up, when corn silage is ready to harvest,
that pH is going to be below five, so... or I'm sorry! When it's ready to feed out after it's
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been stored. That process generally takes in the neighborhood of 3 weeks, but we generally try to
put a cushion on that to allow for, uh... a margin of safety, and also for further breakdown of some
of the... of the feed itself. (Tim) So we're breaking down some of our lignans and that sort
of thing also? (Eric) Uh... so generally, what's happening is we're using some of the starch at
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first, um... and then secondarily, you'll start to see some hemicellulose and some cellulose
also become digested. Now we're not improving the feed quality by making silage out of it,
but we're preserving it. We're just changing the form because it's actually the same microbes that
are producing, um... that are fermenting fiber in the rumen. So what we're looking for out of good
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corn silage is to produce organic acids like lactate acetate, um... particularly lactate
because it's a lower pH. It's a stronger acid. These are the same VFAs (volatile fatty acids)
that are produced in the rumen actually, so... (Tim) Isn't that the compounds that give us
charley horses in our muscles? (Eric) So lactic acid is absolutely the same... the same compound
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that is produced after strenuous exercise, right? So what happens is when we get into strenuous
exercise, we go from aerobic breakdown of, um... nutrients to anaerobic, and that's when the lactic
acid is produced, when we get into that... that intense exercise. (Tim) So it's the same process?
Anaerobic! (Eric) Yeah, absolutely. (Tim) Whether with feed or within our own bodies!
(08:03):
Oh... I never thought about that that... that way. That's great! So... but looks like we have
a high energy product then? (Eric) We do have a high energy product. (Tim) Very high energy
product. (Eric) Uh... I would say moderately high energy product. So... you know, their... you know,
risk of rumen acidosis and things like that are relatively modest with this type of feed. My
(08:25):
concern more so is with farmers maybe underfeeding due to not being accustomed to having to put that
much moisture (water) out in the feed bunk, you know. That's... that's a big concern. I would
say the second thing that I would run into with producers feeding it is lots of waste,
(08:45):
right? So if you're not set up with bunks, this is not something that you're going to go out and put
out free choice like you would a round bale of hay as well. Um... I've seen some guys put corn silage
out in tractor tires and not weigh it out, just kind of put it out free choice. That's a pretty
wasteful way of feeding it. I mean, if it... if the price is right, I could see why one might do
(09:07):
that, but this is really something that you might ought to consider, you know, having a truck with
scales that you can put it out, or have some way of... of... of kind of... you can't manage
what you don't measure, right? So... (Tim) And we want them to take all in that one day. They... we
don't want it to sit around for two days or... (Eric) Well, and that... you know, you bring up
(09:29):
an excellent point as well, Tim, is this is not... because this is an anaerobic fermentation process,
when we re-expose it to oxygen, we essentially set off a countdown, right? So this feed is
being re-exposed to oxygen. Those bacteria that we had inactivated with the low pH, they didn't die.
They just took a time out. And so they reactivate once they... they come in contact with oxygen, and
(09:55):
so then we will begin to see mold and spoilage of this feed occurring. Um... and so it doesn't have
an infinite shelf life in the bunk. It doesn't have an infinite shelf life if you were, to say,
go and buy it out of somebody else's bunker or pit. You know, I got... I had a great conversation
with a gentleman about, you know, how much... how frequently should I take delivery of corn silage
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if I don't own... if I didn't raise the corn. I don't own the bunker that it's in? You know,
and he was wanting to basically go take a couple of semi loads a month and take them to his place
just for efficiency sake. Which I... you know, I... I... I... I appreciate the logistics,
but my concern is that you're essentially exposing all of that feed to oxygen, and then you're going
(10:42):
to let it sit for a month, and you're going to feed it out gradually. And I... I'm... I'm just
not comfortable with that. I... I especially, if we continue, um... to have kind of a warmish fall.
You know, what I'm telling people is, it's a week or less that... that they need to be either taking
delivery on the amount... an amount that they can feed in a week, and they certainly don't want
(11:04):
to be doing, uh... just a complete free choice deal because it's going to spoil. And you know,
even to that point, the production of acids... you know, silage has kind of a... a unique smell
to it, right? So you know, there... there's even chances that, you know, cattle might
turn their nose up at it the first day or two just because it's a novel feed, and they're... they're
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pretty... (Tim) Not used to it. (Eric) Exactly! (Tim) Someone once told me, you get, uh... you
bring cattle in from like New York State who are used to corn silage, and... or you took ours from
Missouri to New York State, they wouldn't know what to do with it. You know, it's... I mean,
they get used to it. (Eric) Absolutely. Yeah, it's... it's... it's a different,
uh... it's a different feed stuff, but it doesn't take them long to adapt. I don't have a lot of
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concerns with it. And you know, that also brings up another point. You know, a common question that
I'll get with corn silage feeding is do I need to add dry hay to it? So there's enough fiber in corn
corn silage to feed it without the need for hay in the diet. Now, there's two reasons why I generally
do not recommend adding hay to a corn silage diet. One, you've probably made the decision to buy corn
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silage because it's reasonably priced relative to hay. And so if you're mixing a more expensive
ingredient (the hay) with your cheaper ingredient (the corn silage), you're kind of shooting
yourself in the foot there. Second, you're also mixing a 70 TDN feed with a 50 TDN feed, and so
you're lowering the energy density of the feed as well. So you know, now with hay being, you know,
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the most recent, uh... Missouri Department of Ag, uh... Weekly Market Summary, you know, they're
still reporting, you know, strong supplies of hay, light to moderate demand for hay, you know,
and... and in, you know, round bales of grass hay being in the $40 to $60 a bale range, which if you
assume that's 1,000 lbs per bale, that's roughly $80 to $120 a ton. Corn silage historically is
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priced delivered to your farm in the neighborhood of 10 to 12 times the price of a bushel of corn.
Okay? So let's just use $4 corn for easy math. Um... so that corn silage should be priced in
the $40 to $48 per ton. But on a dry matter basis, remember... if it's two parts water/one part dry
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matter, you really have to, um... divide that by .33, and so then that ends up being a price of
roughly $120 a ton on a dry matter basis. So... (Tim) That... that kind of puts it,
so it's... it's a little bit more expensive than hay? (Eric) So it's slightly more expensive,
but in terms of calories or pounds of TDN that you're buying, I mean... you're buying 40% more
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TDN in every pound of corn silage than you are in, uh... the hay itself. And so, one of
the things I like to get farmers to think about is not just price per ton of their feed stuffs,
but price per calorie, or price per pound of TDN. And so on a price per pound of TDN, it's pretty
dang competitive. (Tim) But you are also importing nutrients on your farm? (Eric) Absolutely!
(14:21):
Yeah. (Tim) And... and that's got value to it too. (Eric) Yeah, and in fact, that's actually what I
wrote about last month in the Joplin, uh... the Cattleman's News that the Joplin Regional
Stockyards, uh... puts together and puts out every month was I wanted to value...
I wanted to do... put... provide a fertilizer value for the hay that was produced this year,
right? Because we... I don't think we think about that. And so I came up with a value of $24 per ton
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of hay (that would be the NP and K value) based on most recent pricing that I could find on, uh...
DT... PFN... a website that aggregates fertilizer prices. So... (Tim) So we got this energy source,
now... now, you... you chop it, you put it in the bunker, but you gotta... you gotta... you gotta
pack it down? (Eric) Yep. (Tim) And is there a rule of thumb on that? How... when do you quit
(15:08):
packing it? (Eric) So, you want to get to a, um... density of about 45 pounds per cubic foot. And
so I think that's a... a give... pack... the more you pack it, the better it is kind of... (Tim) And
when your tractor quits making the impact, it's probably time. (Eric) Absolutely. Yeah, and then
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make sure you cover it. Cover it with... you know, plastic... like six mil plastic. Put tires on it.
Most importantly, when vermin, raccoons, etc. get into the... cut holes in the silage tarp, go and fix
them, you know! (Tim) Because you're starting to add the aerobic... (Eric) Yeah, the spot
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where they tear into the pile will spoil, and then you'll have kind of a... you'll have a... you'll
have a mold, a... a patch of mold basically. (Tim) At the MU dairy farm, when they get into the...
into the silo... into the trench, you see this big wall, but they don't cover it back up every night,
do they? (Eric) No, they... they generally don't. And so what we do, what we recommend is that if
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you've got a bunker feeding system that you're not able to cover every day, if you feed a minimum
of 6 inches off of the face each day, you're basically... you're not going... you're going
to have minimal spoilage in a 24-hour period. If you feed less than 6 inches off of the face, then
essentially, you're going to be feeding two... three day old silage because the oxygen is going
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to penetrate about six inches. (Tim) Okay. In that first day? (Eric) Six inches of it per exposed
face, so... (Tim) Okay. (Eric) So that's... that's a good rule of thumb. Now if you've got a bag or
other systems, that may not be a concern. But... but yeah, and that's also why we generally get
pretty picky about how the face is managed because what we're trying to do is minimize the surface
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area that's exposed to oxygen. So rather than if you've got a wide face, rather than taking
off of the face equally and leaving portions of it that are exposed for a couple of weeks,
you just basically dig trenches backwards, and so you minimize the amount of face disturbance
that you have. (Tim) Okay. (Eric) If that makes sense. (Tim) Right. Right. And really managing
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that silage is very important. (Eric) Absolutely! Yeah, because you put a lot of time and investment
in growing that crop, one. And two, um... now you've preserved it. And so, don't mess it
up on stage 3. (Tim) So if I'm in a big cattle area that's not traditionally a corn area, and I
plant... I plant corn with... with the idea of silage, uh... get hit with the drought like I
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normally would, is that okay to make silage out of, or am I hurting myself? (Eric) So you know,
University of Nebraska has done a really nice job. That's corn silage is... is an important...
corn is an important resource to the beef cattle industry in the state of Nebraska, as it is to
everywhere else, but Nebraska has been leaders for a long time in not just corn grain usage,
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but corn silage, corn stock grazing, you know, they've... they've done a lot of alternative stuff
with corn. And so, they'll... what their studies have shown is that even drought corn silage,
so long as it's at least... I think it's... the minimum threshold is... it's either 40 or 80
bushels, and I don't remember. It'll still be 65% TDN. So I mean, even drought corn silage is still
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a viable feed stuff option. The thing you have to be concerned about is managing your moisture,
right? Because you're... you're not going to get a good pack if it's too dry. (Tim) Sure. (Eric) And
you're not going to exclude oxygen effectively, so then it's going to mold. (Tim) And what was
it? About 65% moisture is what we want? (Eric) The ideal corn silage moisture is 65%. (Tim) And
I've... I've heard the folks talk about the... the milk layer. (Eric) Yep. (Tim) There's
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a... is there... is there a publication that actually shows you where that milk layer is?
How to read that? (Eric) There... there's multiple publications out there. University of Wisconsin,
um... they've got a real nice dairy silage making publication that I would recommend folks check out
that would have pictures just as you described. (Tim) Good. Yes, cuz that's so important. You
know, another thing that I always wondered about on silage, do I go with a grain type corn or
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silage corn? (Eric) So you know, unfortunately, I'm going to say that's... that's... I'd be
out over my skis if I made a statement there because... (Tim) But that's up to... that's up
to the producer? (Eric) And... and any agronomist that they might be working with, you know,
as well. So that's... I, yeah... I don't... (Tim) But there is a brown mid-rib line in some of them
that I've heard them talk about a little bit... a little bit higher quality. (Eric) So yeah,
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I'm... I'm a little less familiar with BMRs. Um... I know more about them from a sorghum
standpoint. (Tim) Sure. Right. I think some corns are that way now. (Eric) Okay. (Tim) Yeah,
so... so there's... so there's quite a bit of opportunities that you can grow a very
specific. (Eric) Yeah, but I would also say to the producers not to lose the forest for the trees,
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you know, at... at this point if this is year one of feeding corn silage. (Tim) Right. Right.
But... but... but future years. (Eric) Yeah. (Tim) Now the thing I like about corn silage
if I'm growing it myself is I'm harvesting in August, now I got some time to grow a... a forage
cover crop! (Eric) Yep! Absolutely. (Tim) That I could graze in the... in the... in the winter,
or maybe I could even make some haylage out of it! (Eric) Absolutely. I completely agree. That's one
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of the reasons... one of the flexibilities that can be provided to, uh... the farmer,
um... in harvesting that grain. That... cuz that's the earliest you're going to harvest it, right? So
you could also harvest high moisture corn at, you know, 30% moisture, which will get it off a little
earlier, but... but yeah, certainly if you're harvesting your... your spring/summer crop in
(20:58):
August, that gives you a lot of flexibility for... (Tim) Right. Cuz, uh... annual... having annual
forages is a big part of raising livestock. (Eric) Absolutely. (Tim) I mean, we just cannot depend
always on our perennial crops. (Eric) Well, we've also got to... we've got to convince our... our
row crop farmer friends that they need to not tear the fences out and provide some reasonable access
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to water as well so that we can utilize that. Cuz I would argue that the biggest difference between
Nebraska and many other states in the Corn Belt is that they have prioritized having infrastructure
for livestock to be integrated into crop ground still, whereas many other places, I mean, the...
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it's from bar ditch to bar ditch, right? On either side of the highway. And so the fences are gone.
The infrastructure for livestock is gone. There's tremendous opportunity north of I-70 to reintegrate
livestock into row crop agriculture. And... and I think the potential economic impact would shock
people if they thought about it long enough, but the reality is is that the reason it's not there
(22:06):
is we sorely lack the infrastructure. (Tim) North Missouri is actually probably in the bullseye of
great forage production. You know, the... the... the climate, Southern Corn Belt, it just... it
just really fits that very, very well. (Eric) Absolutely. (Tim) So... so we can make corn silage
now, but are we going to have to supplement a high pro... some protein with this now? (Eric) That's
(22:29):
a great... I'm glad you brought that up, Tim! I was... I was afraid we were going to get away from
that. So you know, corn silage is roughly 9% crude protein, and if anything, it's marginally deficient
in crude protein. It's not significant. But you know, what I tell farmers, with dried distillers
grains being as prevalent as they are today, a really simple ration that works real nice, if you
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have the... the ability to mix it on an as-fed or on a wet basis, nine parts corn silage/one
part dried distiller grains. So that'll... that on a dry matter basis, that'll balance out to a
ration that's got roughly 12 1/2% crude protein, maybe 13%. I'm... it's been a minute since I've
done that math, so I have... (Tim) But 9 to 1? (Eric) 9 to 1, yeah. (Tim) Wow. And DDGs are a
(23:13):
lot more common then... then because there's a lot of ethanol plants around. (Eric) Absolutely! Yeah,
I mean... that's a very common feed. And certainly, that ration can be balanced with
other ingredients. There's nothing magical about it. (Tim) Soybean hulls? (Eric) Well, so soy hulls
I wouldn't use because soy hulls run between 11% and 13% crude protein, so you'd take a lot of soy
hulls in that ration to kind of bring the average up. The nice thing about the distiller's grains
(23:37):
is that it's 30% crude protein, so it's... (Tim) Oh, my goodness! (Eric) So it... it, you know,
it doesn't take much of it to raise the average pretty quick. (Tim) Or feeding straight soybeans,
I guess? Or ground some way. (Eric) Yeah, so even a whole soybean, uh... the biggest challenge you
run into there is fat content. So you know, being 20% fat, you really don't want a beef cow to eat
more than about 5 pounds of soybeans, whole... whole soybeans per day, uh... because you don't
(24:01):
want them to run into issues with fiber digestion. Too much fat in the diet reduces fiber digestion
in the rumen. (Tim) Oh, wow. (Eric) And so, it doesn't cause like a digestive upset per se, but
it reduces the efficiency of the use of your feed. So... (Tim) Okay. All right. Well, those are some
great, great, uh... rules of thumb, and... and looking at, uh... corn silage. And you all have a
(24:25):
lot of publications on that they can follow up on. (Eric) You bet. (Tim) That... that's fantastic!
Well, we're continuing our discussion with Dr. Eric Bailey. And we had great discussion on corn
silage and... and management and... and some rules of thumb on.... on feeding, but it's also time
in the... in the fall to start planning for spring because we got to think about next spring, summer
(24:49):
and even next fall as far as what we're going to feed, so what should we... we... we be thinking
about now? (Dr. Eric Bailey) Well, so you know, we're going into the winter with dry conditions,
right? So we're not rebuilding soil moisture. I'm... I'm a little concerned that if we have
continued dry weather, you know, we might end up starting the spring with one hand behind our
(25:14):
backs. Our... our... our forage might be getting off to a late start in perennial pasture... tall
fescue pasture. So... (Tim) Because do... do our perennials get set up in the... in
the fall for spring? (Eric) Absolutely, yeah. So cool-season grasses, right? So they... they...
they don't follow our calendar. Their year starts in the fall, right? And so they're vegetative in
the fall. They go dormant in the winter. They reemerge in the spring, vegetative again, then
(25:38):
they go reproductive, and then they go dormant in the summer. So really, the fall is kind of
the start of their calendar year. So... so yeah, there's... there's potential from my perspective,
one, for us to do damage by grazing the pastures into the ground, forcing them to use their root
carbohydrate reserves to generate new leaf material because the leaves are where they're,
(25:59):
you know, they're harvesting sunlight with, right? So, uh... so that's a concern. Um... you know,
if we have to start feeding hay early in the fall because it's dry, then that makes bale counting
in February and March tight, right? And... and then if we've got, you know, a... a late start
to our growing season and hay feeding season stretches out longer, that just puts a lot of
(26:23):
pressure on those inventories when we have barely filled the barns back up after the last drought,
so... (Tim) Cuz we got lucky last year. We had a very mild winter. (Eric)Yep. (Tim) If I know
we're... we're going to La Nina now, I believe, which... a little bit rougher winters usually,
longer winters... (Eric) Yep. (Tim) ...wet winters, and that could... that could cause
(26:44):
some issues. (Eric) Yeah, that's the... the mild winter we had last year saved our bacon, cuz we...
our hay supplies across the state were... they were real tight. (Tim) And we greened up
early. (Eric) And we greened up early. (Tim) So we got back on the pastures which was great. I
know that saved a lot like you said. So what... but every fall we should be planting. So what...
(27:06):
what should we be... be... be looking at now? (Eric) You know, that's a great question, Tim,
and I'm gonna... I'm going to take a hard left turn off of that. (Tim) All right! (Eric) So...
well, so I... I think one of the things that I... I'm... I'm concerned about, and I... I think I can
say this because I... I've... I've been here long enough that I... I feel like I've got a feel for
this system. You know, we've done a lot promoting the use of stockpiling forages and pastures,
(27:28):
and I don't know that the return on investment is there. Hear me out before everybody gets
their pitchforks out. (Tim) Well, mine's sharp right now. (Eric) My concern is I've been in
Missouri for seven years now, and I've seen two falls where we've had adequate precipitation to
develop stockpile. (Tim) Two out of seven. (Eric) Two out of seven. And I've got other colleagues
(27:49):
who will say that the stockpile they've seen has been one out of five. (Tim) Oh, wow. (Eric) Okay?
Every pound of nitrogen that we put down in the fall should grow somewhere in the neighborhood of
10 to 15 pounds of additional forage dry matter. That comes at an expense though,
right? We generally tell people to put down, what? 40 units of nitrogen in the fall, and if
(28:10):
nitrogen costs... let's say .70 cents a pound (I know I'm over. It's in the 60s right now),
but let's say .70 cents. That's $28 an acre that you're spending right there. What's my return on
investment from that practice? More importantly, I think from a carrying capacity standpoint on the
farm, I think a question that we have to ask ourselves, are the stocking rates that we are
(28:35):
currently using on our farms appropriate for what our land will produce in terms of forage? I mean,
you know historically we've talked about fescue producing, you know, four tons of forage dry
matter per acre. But, and... and that's a big broad stroke, and I know that everybody's soil
type and topography is different and climate is different, and... and that's just kind of
(28:58):
a real rule of thumb. But you know, I don't know that the number... the right number is not three
tons of fescue because we're just not seeing that fall hump, right? In that fall regrowth. And...
and I'm... I'm not saying that it doesn't happen. I'm not saying that my predecessors and colleagues
were wrong for promoting the use of stockpiling. I just think there's more variability in stockpiling
(29:25):
that we have to account for when we're thinking about making these kind of big picture decisions
for our farm, you know? Um... so for example, like when I had that rent farm in Randolph County, you
know, I thought I would run one set of stockers in the spring and doing my double stock model,
and then I'd be able to come back in the fall with about half the animals and get kind of a
(29:47):
second graze... a second graze period. And the two years that I did it, we had no precip in the fall,
and we had to ship the cattle early both years, and that was at the half the stocking rate we did
in the spring. So... (Tim) That could also affect if I'm going to plant, uh... annual cereal crops
in the late summer/fall. If I don't get the rain, I won't get the growth. (Eric) Yeah. And
(30:11):
that's... I think that's also a fair point. Now I'm not... don't... please don't take this away
that I don't think we should do cover crops or we should do any kind of anything in the fall, but
I just think there's... I'm at least seeing data that would support the idea that there's just more
variability in the precipitation during the fall. And that precipitation, right? So the number one
(30:34):
predictor of forage production is precipitation. So... (Tim) And those are setting us up maybe for
a good spring growth. You know, what we plant in the fall. (Eric) Yep, absolutely. (Tim) But...
we're talking about winter. The winter. (Eric) That's right. Yeah. And a lot of the cover
crops that we grow, right? So cereal rye, annual rye... you know, generally you get them sprouted
(30:55):
in the fall, they go dormant, but then they produce dramatically in the spring. (Tim) Yeah,
March/April. (Eric) There's not very many, other than maybe oats, that are prolific
producers of tonnage in the fall, um... to get you there. (Tim) Right. So we're talking about,
what are we going to graze in November, December, January, February? (Eric) Absolutely! And... and
I... I very much appreciate the idea of a forage chain. Having diversity of your forage crops in
(31:22):
your system, both perennial and annual, to... to basically reduce on the amount of days that you're
feeding hay. Cuz you... you have heard me say this before, but feeding hay costs two to three
times what it does for a cow to graze it herself. And, quite honestly, most people make the mistake,
and... and I will... I will say it plainly, they harvest hay at the worst time possible,
(31:45):
and they get the lowest quality feed possible. So... (Tim) Right. It seems like we do everything
else, and then we go harvest hay. (Eric) Exactly. It becomes the chore that gets done after all
the other chores are done. So... and that's, you know, I... I'm not saying that properly harvested
tall fescue is as good quality as corn silage, or alfalfa for that matter, but I think we leave some
(32:09):
opportunity on the table when we cut hay in June and July versus cutting it in late May. (Tim) One of
the better farm managers once told me, "I want to be done by Mother's Day." (Eric) Yeah. (Tim) And
he's producing some great quality hay. (Eric) Yeah. And a lot of, the... the two biggest things
I get push back on about that is it's hard to find a window where it's dry enough to get it
(32:33):
swathed, raked, dried down, um... in that stretch of the... the year (which I totally appreciate),
but you also have the opportunity to make baleage out of it, right? Because you can be
in and out of a field if you're... if you're wet wrapping hay in 24 hours. Two, they argue that
you get less tons... less pounds per acre, and they're not wrong, but the TDN value of that feed
(33:01):
you get is greater. And so on a pounds per TDN... of TDN, you get a similar amount of TDN just in a
smaller package, right? And so you're getting a higher quality feed and crude protein's greater,
it's just there's too many things to discount, you know? (Tim) Those mature stems don't pack much
nutrition. (Eric) No, they don't... they don't pack much nutrition, right? (Tim) So what do...
(33:24):
what do we do then? If... if... if stockpiling may not be the answer, what do we do? (Eric) That's a
great question, Tim. You know, I... I... circling back... (Tim) Sell the cows? (Eric) Well, circling
back to the original discussion, I... I... I truly believe that every person that has beef cattle in
this state needs to take a very hard look at what they're... how many cows they have, and what the
(33:48):
carrying capacity of their land is, and how much they're having to subsidize their cow herd with
labor, iron, and oil. Right? And so, by that I mean, how much time are you spending feeding
hay in the winter? How much time are you... how much equipment do you have to own to facilitate
the feeding of hay? Right? So I did this exercise, and I was guest lecturing in beef production this
(34:14):
spring, and I got on Big Iron and said, 'Hey, let's start a farm from scratch! We're going
to take, uh... 100 acre field, and we're going to assume it's square and flat, and it's good fescue,
and it's either going to go to hay production or it's going to go to grazing. What is the cost to
take raw land into the hay production practice or business, or to put five strand barbed wire fence
(34:37):
and dig a pond... a half-acre pond on it and graze cattle." It took us $200,000 in equipment to get,
and... and I... I didn't buy new! It was just... it was the... the same horsepower tractor that the,
uh... Missouri hay... fescue hay budget had on it. It was a hay trailer. It was a used pickup.
It was $200,000 in equipment to... to facilitate the cutting of hay off of this field, and it
(35:04):
was less than $35,000 to build the fence... (Tim) For grazing. (Eric) ...and... and dig a pond for
grazing. (Tim) Wow. (Eric) And so you think about it, right? So you've added value to that land when
you put up the fence, and you've dug a pond. All of this $200,000 you spent is going to be worth
half that in five - seven years, right? (Tim) That has to be replaced. (Eric) Depreciation.
(35:24):
Depreciation is the silent killer of the cattle business, and I don't think... I don't think that
we appreciate that enough as an industry. And that's why I try to set up systems that have
very low requirements for iron and... and oil because... and... and I... I know a lot of people
gripe about the, um... labor that it takes to feed hay in the winter, too, and that's a real cost,
(35:49):
but it's the depreciation of these... of these assets that I just, I... that's why I think a lot
of folks don't make any money in the business. Now, you can come back and say, "Well, I run
20-year-old equipment, and I've got everything paid for, and, and, and... ," and then in that case
labor becomes a larger part of that cost. But you know, the reason, Tim, that the young people
(36:12):
aren't coming back to the farm is because it takes $200,000 to... (Tim) Right. (Eric) ...to make hay
off of 100 acres. (Tim) And also, you're exporting nutrients. (Eric) Oh, absolutely! (Tim) Even if
you're keeping them on your own farm somewhere else, you got to bring them back. (Eric) Yeah,
cuz you're not... you know, most farmers are feeding that hay in a designated
spot... (Tim) Yes. (Eric) ...and they're concentrating the nutrients in that area. They're
(36:32):
not unrolling hay out across these fields, right? Because, uh... I mean, cattle take less than 20%
of the N,P and K out of a bale for themselves. The vast majority of it comes out the hind end
as manure and is recycled back onto the field. So we pull fertility out of these areas at a much
(36:53):
slower rate when we graze. And in particular, we can even concentrate that manure effectively if
we implement a managed grazing system. (Tim) Right. (Eric) Right? So you know, you're...
you're absolutely right from a fertilizer value perspective. I mean, I think the question becomes
in the grazing system, outside of maybe lime, do we really need... and much N,P or K in general?
(37:17):
In fact, I know folks that have not... have gone away from using N,P and K just because they've...
they've really sort of doubled down on their grazing. (Tim) Whereas, you take soil tests from
fields that have been hayed, the P and K levels are pretty low. (Eric) Absolutely. And then you
see broomshedge come in, and you've got all these other invasives, you know, and... and that's...
that's certainly a... a big concern. (Tim) So what do we do? (Eric) Well, so I... you know,
(37:43):
I'm... I'm a big proponent of, I think we have that conversation about what our carrying capacity
truly is, and I would say that the average Missouri farm does not need to have one single
enterprise of livestock anymore. So right? So back in the day, every farm had pigs and chickens and
cattle. I see a future where we diversify within a livestock, um... class, like cattle. I would love
(38:11):
to see every farm in Missouri take about half of their carrying capacity, what their land can truly
support, and devote that to cows like they always have. The other half of their carrying capacity,
devote that to developing heifers, raising grazing stockers, backgrounding their own calves,
custom grazing cattle for somebody else with the theory that, essentially what I've done is,
(38:36):
I have, um... put flexible grazers on my farm. Those cattle can come or go at any
time essentially. (Tim) Sure. (Eric) And so, right? So we get all this fescue in the spring.
We have more fescue than we know what to do with for 60 days. Let it be grazed by something that
can make us money. Something that doesn't require $200,000 of equipment. And when there's no more
(39:01):
grass to graze, they go home. Now, rather than three acres a cow, I've gone back and I've said,
"Okay, my true stocking rate probably ought to be more like four to five acres per cow, but I'm only
using half of my acres. So now, rather than... let's say four acres per cow, I really have eight
acres per cow/calf pair." And so, what that does is that provides drought insurance. That reduces
(39:25):
the, um... the need for feeding hay in the winter. That extends the grazing season. That allows...
facilitates easier stockpiling. To me, we just... we have to diversify how we use our carrying
capacity. (Tim) So could I... say, I'm going to have my stockers in the spring when I have all
this forage... (Eric) Yep! (Tim) ...and then by July, they're gone to the feed lot? (Eric) Well,
(39:48):
and that's the whole reason I've been doing this double stocking research in Mount Vernon and...
and challenging the paradigm that stocker cattle don't gain weight on Kentucky 31 tall fescue. My
work is clearly shown over the past five years that, yes, they gain a lot of weight early,
but if you try to make them graze once the fescue has gone... has put up a seed head and
(40:09):
gone dormant in... you know, late June, July and August, they're not going to gain diddly. In fact,
they might even go backwards during that period of time. But they'll gain tremendously well in April,
May and in the mo... the majority of June. So... (Tim) So... so when would that fit best with a
calving? That... that I can take full advantage of that? (Eric) So that... that's a great question,
(40:30):
Tim. You know, I think in that system, you're probably still looking at a spring calving system,
right? So February/March calving system. I... I... I like the fall calving system,
and I know a lot of folks have... have seen, um... benefits of switching from spring to fall, but the
concern with the fall calving is just simply if our fall stockpile growth is variable. Now,
(40:55):
if I don't bring any additional outside cattle in in the fall, I've got more acres to run my...
my fall pairs on, so I could probably get away with fall. But I also like the idea of having
as many animal units on the place as possible in the spring, eating as much of that excess
forage away, so that I don't have to harvest the excess forage as dry hay. So... (Tim) So
(41:16):
if it's born in February, it's going to be weaned... (Eric) October. September/October.
(Tim) So that's when... that's when it's going to be. (Eric) Yeah. So then I'm basically trying
to get a dry cow through the winter rather than trying to get a nursing lactating cow.
Because we know that there's... every two and a half days that a calf is weaned off
of a cow is one day's worth of feed for a cow... in the milk that she produces,
(41:41):
right? So her nutrient requirements drop by 40% when the calf is weaned. And so if I'm going to
go into my toughest forage months, I would want to do that with animals at the lowest nutrient
requirements. (Tim) Sure... sure. (Eric) I think the question that comes up when I talk about these
things, "Oh, that sounds like something that a guy that has 500 cows could do most effectively!"
(42:03):
That's not an unfair criticism. But, even a guy with a 100 cows, if he cuts down to 50 cows,
he'll still have room for a semi-load of stockers in the spring. So the... the logistic numbers work.
Now the guy that has 35 cows, I think that's where the question gets more difficult, right? Because
at that point, okay... so I'm going to have 20 cows and 40 stockers and... you know, like the
(42:29):
numbers get too small where it's like, does it really make sense? To those folks I would say,
"Do you really have to have cows? Should I just have stockers instead?" (Tim) Right! (Eric) Or,
do I try to expand my business by taking on lease ground so that I can grow the operation? Or,
simply do I custom graze for somebody else? I mean, that's the ultimate flexibility comes in
(42:51):
custom grazing. And I mean, just think about a custom grazing business where,
uh... in 2022 and 2023, if you had grass, right? So George Carlin said back in the 70s, "He who
has all the supply can demand whatever he wants for it." He said it a little more colorfully than
that. But... but if you think about it, I mean, there were guys last year and the year before
(43:12):
that were spending over $4 a cow a day in hay. Right? (Tim) Oh, wow. (Eric) So even if you as
a custom grazer came in and said, "Hey, Tim! Come graze your cows on my farm for $2.50 a day,"
(which is a double what the kind of prevailing market rate for grazing dry cows is). You win. I
win. (Tim) Sure. (Eric) Everybody wins in that case because you cut your... you cut your...
(43:37):
your feed bill in the winter substantially. You get paid above market rate because your grass
appreciated. I... I just think... I think the smaller you are, the more flexible you've got
to be. And beef cows, I... I love cows, right? So people have accused me of being anti-...
anti-mama cow. I grew up with cows. I... I do not have a problem with them, but the weak...
(44:00):
fundamental weakness of a beef cow, she's got to eat 365 days a year, and our grass does not grow
365 days a year. (Tim) That's really intriguing because I think you and some of your colleagues
have said that if you get right down to it, those with 35 head don't make any money. They actually
lose money. (Eric) Well, and yeah. So I... (Tim) Because... because they're, uh... their cost are
(44:23):
more. (Eric) Well, and that's... that's the hard part about this too is that even the closer we get
to the smaller beef operations, it becomes less about economics and more about egonomics. And so,
but then when you're losing, you're losing on a smaller scale, so it... you may not feel it. And
so, you know, that becomes challenging. That... Wesley Tucker came up with that "egonomics" term.
(44:45):
That is definitely not mine, but it's so good that I steal it and use it every place I can get. (Tim) If
you just have stockers, your investment's not that much. (Eric) Yeah. (Tim) And it's shorter
period. You can get out anytime you want. (Eric) Yep. (Tim) You can skip it if you need to, but you
still have animals on your place. You still... that's a... there's a lot of it with less...
(45:07):
less headaches because, uh... having babies is not easy. (Eric) Oh, absolutely not. No, it's
it's definitely not. Now, I will bring up another common sort of objection to this system is, um...
getting playing with the market, right? So feeder cattle stocker price goes up, it goes down, right?
(45:28):
So you're taking on a fair bit of market risk. That's why I think you just got to find somebody
else to custom graze for as you learn this other segment of the business. If you can offer a
cheaper price per pound of weight gained than what they can do in their dry lot, their backgrounding
lot or in the feed lot, you'll find them. And and it's going to take some hustling calling sale
(45:49):
barns, calling people you know. I mean, if... if you're willing to put a little effort in, a
potential dance partner can be found where they'll take... you'll take in their cattle. (Tim) But if
you had that 100 acres that we talked about before of well-maintained pasture, get... you can get
paid for your management... (Eric) Oh, absolutely! (Tim) ...of... of your pasture. Not so much your
(46:11):
management of a mama cow and her... and get her bred back and get... (Eric) Well, and that's why
I get so fired up about it because if you look at it on a pure cash flow basis, a custom graze
on leased land is the lowest barrier to entry to get into the cattle business, and that's
why I rented that farm in Randolph County. It took me... so my lease was $12,000 a year, and I bought
(46:35):
about $6,000 in equipment to get started, and I made that back the first... the first grazing
season. Right? So after that it was gravy. (Tim) Wow. (Eric) So that was... it was... we are not
going to bring the kids back to the farm with promises of equity, right? Because historically,
(46:55):
we've built equity with the farm, but we've had to subsidize the farm with off-farm income to provide
cash flow to pay the bills. Right? And so farming has historically been a long-term investment type
play that requires having a job in town. Well then, by the time you built a farm to any size
(47:15):
scale, you're probably 45 to 50 years old, and you have two full-time jobs now and kids that are
probably in high school, right? So you've got more irons in the fire than you need to do with. If you
could have a... a... a business that generates cash flow on day one that doesn't require
hundreds of thousands of dollars of investment, that's how we give kids a fighting chance to get
(47:38):
started in the cattle business. (Tim) To get them to come back to the farm. (Eric) Yep! (Tim) That's
right. All right. Well, Eric, this has been a fascinating, uh... discussion, and it just gave
a lot of room for thought. I thought about my own background. That's what we did.
We backgrounded cattle in the winter time, and in the spring when we had all the tall fescue, and in
(47:59):
the winter where we could graze cornstalks, cover crops, and that sort of thing. So you can make it
fit to what your system is. (Eric) Absolutely. (Tim) That's what's nice. All right. Well,
thanks, Eric, so much! Uh... and this is it for Tim's Take. See you next time.
[♫]
(Tim) That was great!
[♫]
[♫]
Well, welcome to Tim's Take! And today our very special guest is Dr. Eric Bailey, a new Associate
Professor with MU Extension. He's our beef nutritionist. Welcome, Eric! (Dr. Eric Bailey) Hi,
(00:21):
Tim. It's good to be with you again. Thanks for having me. (Tim) Well, you know, you've
been talking about drought and what to do in... in these drought times for the last couple years,
and... but we actually had a decent hay crop this year. And that may have changed things
a little bit where we started having some hay, but as we talked about before we went on, late
(00:42):
summer was not good for us. (Eric) Absolutely. (Tim) And we don't have our pastures probably
stockpiled like... like we... like we'd like to have them, so we'll be probably feeding more
hay this year. But... but you said there's some other options, maybe not this year... possibly,
but maybe next year that we might want to start planning on? (Eric) Yeah, so you know, as part
(01:03):
of the, um... Ag Experiment Station field days that are organized across the state, you know,
I get the opportunity to interact with producers, and... and get, you know, to have really nice
one-on-one conversations and, honestly, learn from them as much as I do, you know, provide them
with my knowledge and expertise. And you know, I... when I was at the field day in Mount Vernon, I
(01:24):
was actually approached by two different gentlemen separately wanting more information about feeding
corn silage to beef cows. You know, along with our good hay crop that we had this year, we also had,
you know, bumper corn crop in a lot of parts of the state. And so what we're seeing is a market
developing where folks, cow/calf producers are buying corn silage from farmers, hauling
(01:48):
it to their farm and using that as a winter feed resource. And so, you know, I wanted to kind of
focus on some tips and things to look out for with maybe utilizing some of this corn silage. Because
you're absolutely right, pasture conditions are deteriorating pretty rapidly, but thankfully, many
folks got not only a spring cutting of hay, but also a second summer cutting of hay, so our barns
(02:12):
are filling back up. But now, there's also this supply of corn silage that's available, and the
question that's coming up is, where does it fit into this plan? And can I use some of that corn
silage to defray the use of my hay, especially if I have to get into my hay supplies early this
fall? (Tim) But now you're talking about corn silage that we... that we chop green? (Eric) Corn
(02:36):
silage that would be from the 2024 crop, yes. Not '25 planting for next year, so... (Tim) But most
of that corn's harvested, isn't it? (Eric) So most of that corn is harvested, but you know,
corn silage needs to ferment for a minimum of 30 to 60 days, and we generally start harvesting corn
silage in early August, so... (Tim) Right. (Eric) ...so the reason I think that there was a lot
(02:56):
of interest in it is that now is about the time where bunker and pits and silos are being opened
up. And... and that transacting is occurring where, you know, cow/calf producers might be
soliciting that, or farmers be marketing it to the cow/calf producers. (Tim) Because normally,
we think of corn silage is more dairy... (Eric) Absolutely. Completely agree. (Tim) ...and not so
(03:17):
much beef. So, uh... so what are some good tips? (Eric) Well, so I mean, the first thing I think,
uh... a cow/calf producer has to recognize is that you're feeding a... a feed that is, more than
likely, two parts moisture and one part water. So if you're accustomed to feeding a beef cow
30 lbs of hay per day, you're really feeding her 27 lbs of dry feed and 3 lbs of water, right? Cuz
(03:43):
even dry hay has 10% moisture. But in this case, if you were to feed a cow 30 lbs of corn silage,
you're only feeding her... you're feeding her 20 lbs of water and 10 lbs of dry feed, so you know,
making an adjustment. Second to that, right? Corn silage is usually... I mean, a rule of thumb is
that, uh... on a dry matter basis, it's half corn grain and half leaf, husk and... and cob,
(04:09):
right? So you've got half fiber/half grain. So you've got a higher nutritional value. Um... you
know, especially thinking about, you know, typical fescue hay, 50... 52... 50... maybe 55% TDN. Corn
silage is going to be 70... 72... 74% TDN, so it's going to be, you know, on an energy density basis,
(04:31):
it's going to be a lot higher, which is... can benefit! Especially, I... I think where the first
place I would deploy corn silage if I had the opportunity to buy it, and some other boxes that
I... I want to get to get checked, it's in feeding a fall calving cow who's at peak lactation, right?
Because that's... that's the weakness of the fall calving system is that we're... peak cow nutrient
(04:58):
requirements are occurring during a time of declining forage quality and forage availability.
(Tim) And that would be in late fall? (Eric) Late fall. Exactly. Yeah, late fall going into winter.
Right. So you know, try... think about trying to raise a calf and make milk on 50 TDN fescue hay
and a little bit of supplement, right? (Tim) So... so as you mentioned, you chop it in, uh... August,
(05:21):
but you really want what? 60 days, you said? To ferment? (Eric) Minimum of 30 to 60. You know, and
the way that I like to describe this to producers who have not... are not familiar with the process is,
we're essentially trying to pickle this feed to preserve it, right? So what happens is,
we get it chopped. We pack it in a bunker or a silo or a bag or a pit, or even just a pile.
(05:45):
Um... and what we're trying to do through this packing process is exclude oxygen. Because oxygen
is going to allow for aerobic respiration to occur, for mold, uh... stuff like nonbeneficial,
um... microbes to grow and... and spoil the feed, but if we exclude all of the oxygen, then we get
(06:06):
anaerobic (or without oxygen) fermentation occurs, and the byproduct of this fermentation are organic
acids that actually have a low pH. They're very acidic, and so that actually kills all
of the... all of the bad bugs off. And so we'll end up, when corn silage is ready to harvest,
that pH is going to be below five, so... or I'm sorry! When it's ready to feed out after it's
(06:31):
been stored. That process generally takes in the neighborhood of 3 weeks, but we generally try to
put a cushion on that to allow for, uh... a margin of safety, and also for further breakdown of some
of the... of the feed itself. (Tim) So we're breaking down some of our lignans and that sort
of thing also? (Eric) Uh... so generally, what's happening is we're using some of the starch at
(06:53):
first, um... and then secondarily, you'll start to see some hemicellulose and some cellulose
also become digested. Now we're not improving the feed quality by making silage out of it,
but we're preserving it. We're just changing the form because it's actually the same microbes that
are producing, um... that are fermenting fiber in the rumen. So what we're looking for out of good
(07:18):
corn silage is to produce organic acids like lactate acetate, um... particularly lactate
because it's a lower pH. It's a stronger acid. These are the same VFAs (volatile fatty acids)
that are produced in the rumen actually, so... (Tim) Isn't that the compounds that give us
charley horses in our muscles? (Eric) So lactic acid is absolutely the same... the same compound
(07:42):
that is produced after strenuous exercise, right? So what happens is when we get into strenuous
exercise, we go from aerobic breakdown of, um... nutrients to anaerobic, and that's when the lactic
acid is produced, when we get into that... that intense exercise. (Tim) So it's the same process?
Anaerobic! (Eric) Yeah, absolutely. (Tim) Whether with feed or within our own bodies!
(08:03):
Oh... I never thought about that that... that way. That's great! So... but looks like we have
a high energy product then? (Eric) We do have a high energy product. (Tim) Very high energy
product. (Eric) Uh... I would say moderately high energy product. So... you know, their... you know,
risk of rumen acidosis and things like that are relatively modest with this type of feed. My
(08:25):
concern more so is with farmers maybe underfeeding due to not being accustomed to having to put that
much moisture (water) out in the feed bunk, you know. That's... that's a big concern. I would
say the second thing that I would run into with producers feeding it is lots of waste,
(08:45):
right? So if you're not set up with bunks, this is not something that you're going to go out and put
out free choice like you would a round bale of hay as well. Um... I've seen some guys put corn silage
out in tractor tires and not weigh it out, just kind of put it out free choice. That's a pretty
wasteful way of feeding it. I mean, if it... if the price is right, I could see why one might do
(09:07):
that, but this is really something that you might ought to consider, you know, having a truck with
scales that you can put it out, or have some way of... of... of kind of... you can't manage
what you don't measure, right? So... (Tim) And we want them to take all in that one day. They... we
don't want it to sit around for two days or... (Eric) Well, and that... you know, you bring up
(09:29):
an excellent point as well, Tim, is this is not... because this is an anaerobic fermentation process,
when we re-expose it to oxygen, we essentially set off a countdown, right? So this feed is
being re-exposed to oxygen. Those bacteria that we had inactivated with the low pH, they didn't die.
They just took a time out. And so they reactivate once they... they come in contact with oxygen, and
(09:55):
so then we will begin to see mold and spoilage of this feed occurring. Um... and so it doesn't have
an infinite shelf life in the bunk. It doesn't have an infinite shelf life if you were, to say,
go and buy it out of somebody else's bunker or pit. You know, I got... I had a great conversation
with a gentleman about, you know, how much... how frequently should I take delivery of corn silage
(10:19):
if I don't own... if I didn't raise the corn. I don't own the bunker that it's in? You know,
and he was wanting to basically go take a couple of semi loads a month and take them to his place
just for efficiency sake. Which I... you know, I... I... I... I appreciate the logistics,
but my concern is that you're essentially exposing all of that feed to oxygen, and then you're going
(10:42):
to let it sit for a month, and you're going to feed it out gradually. And I... I'm... I'm just
not comfortable with that. I... I especially, if we continue, um... to have kind of a warmish fall.
You know, what I'm telling people is, it's a week or less that... that they need to be either taking
delivery on the amount... an amount that they can feed in a week, and they certainly don't want
(11:04):
to be doing, uh... just a complete free choice deal because it's going to spoil. And you know,
even to that point, the production of acids... you know, silage has kind of a... a unique smell
to it, right? So you know, there... there's even chances that, you know, cattle might
turn their nose up at it the first day or two just because it's a novel feed, and they're... they're
(11:25):
pretty... (Tim) Not used to it. (Eric) Exactly! (Tim) Someone once told me, you get, uh... you
bring cattle in from like New York State who are used to corn silage, and... or you took ours from
Missouri to New York State, they wouldn't know what to do with it. You know, it's... I mean,
they get used to it. (Eric) Absolutely. Yeah, it's... it's... it's a different,
uh... it's a different feed stuff, but it doesn't take them long to adapt. I don't have a lot of
(11:49):
concerns with it. And you know, that also brings up another point. You know, a common question that
I'll get with corn silage feeding is do I need to add dry hay to it? So there's enough fiber in corn
corn silage to feed it without the need for hay in the diet. Now, there's two reasons why I generally
do not recommend adding hay to a corn silage diet. One, you've probably made the decision to buy corn
(12:14):
silage because it's reasonably priced relative to hay. And so if you're mixing a more expensive
ingredient (the hay) with your cheaper ingredient (the corn silage), you're kind of shooting
yourself in the foot there. Second, you're also mixing a 70 TDN feed with a 50 TDN feed, and so
you're lowering the energy density of the feed as well. So you know, now with hay being, you know,
(12:40):
the most recent, uh... Missouri Department of Ag, uh... Weekly Market Summary, you know, they're
still reporting, you know, strong supplies of hay, light to moderate demand for hay, you know,
and... and in, you know, round bales of grass hay being in the $40 to $60 a bale range, which if you
assume that's 1,000 lbs per bale, that's roughly $80 to $120 a ton. Corn silage historically is
(13:07):
priced delivered to your farm in the neighborhood of 10 to 12 times the price of a bushel of corn.
Okay? So let's just use $4 corn for easy math. Um... so that corn silage should be priced in
the $40 to $48 per ton. But on a dry matter basis, remember... if it's two parts water/one part dry
(13:32):
matter, you really have to, um... divide that by .33, and so then that ends up being a price of
roughly $120 a ton on a dry matter basis. So... (Tim) That... that kind of puts it,
so it's... it's a little bit more expensive than hay? (Eric) So it's slightly more expensive,
but in terms of calories or pounds of TDN that you're buying, I mean... you're buying 40% more
(13:59):
TDN in every pound of corn silage than you are in, uh... the hay itself. And so, one of
the things I like to get farmers to think about is not just price per ton of their feed stuffs,
but price per calorie, or price per pound of TDN. And so on a price per pound of TDN, it's pretty
dang competitive. (Tim) But you are also importing nutrients on your farm? (Eric) Absolutely!
(14:21):
Yeah. (Tim) And... and that's got value to it too. (Eric) Yeah, and in fact, that's actually what I
wrote about last month in the Joplin, uh... the Cattleman's News that the Joplin Regional
Stockyards, uh... puts together and puts out every month was I wanted to value...
I wanted to do... put... provide a fertilizer value for the hay that was produced this year,
right? Because we... I don't think we think about that. And so I came up with a value of $24 per ton
(14:44):
of hay (that would be the NP and K value) based on most recent pricing that I could find on, uh...
DT... PFN... a website that aggregates fertilizer prices. So... (Tim) So we got this energy source,
now... now, you... you chop it, you put it in the bunker, but you gotta... you gotta... you gotta
pack it down? (Eric) Yep. (Tim) And is there a rule of thumb on that? How... when do you quit
(15:08):
packing it? (Eric) So, you want to get to a, um... density of about 45 pounds per cubic foot. And
so I think that's a... a give... pack... the more you pack it, the better it is kind of... (Tim) And
when your tractor quits making the impact, it's probably time. (Eric) Absolutely. Yeah, and then
(15:29):
make sure you cover it. Cover it with... you know, plastic... like six mil plastic. Put tires on it.
Most importantly, when vermin, raccoons, etc. get into the... cut holes in the silage tarp, go and fix
them, you know! (Tim) Because you're starting to add the aerobic... (Eric) Yeah, the spot
(15:52):
where they tear into the pile will spoil, and then you'll have kind of a... you'll have a... you'll
have a mold, a... a patch of mold basically. (Tim) At the MU dairy farm, when they get into the...
into the silo... into the trench, you see this big wall, but they don't cover it back up every night,
do they? (Eric) No, they... they generally don't. And so what we do, what we recommend is that if
(16:16):
you've got a bunker feeding system that you're not able to cover every day, if you feed a minimum
of 6 inches off of the face each day, you're basically... you're not going... you're going
to have minimal spoilage in a 24-hour period. If you feed less than 6 inches off of the face, then
essentially, you're going to be feeding two... three day old silage because the oxygen is going
(16:37):
to penetrate about six inches. (Tim) Okay. In that first day? (Eric) Six inches of it per exposed
face, so... (Tim) Okay. (Eric) So that's... that's a good rule of thumb. Now if you've got a bag or
other systems, that may not be a concern. But... but yeah, and that's also why we generally get
pretty picky about how the face is managed because what we're trying to do is minimize the surface
(17:00):
area that's exposed to oxygen. So rather than if you've got a wide face, rather than taking
off of the face equally and leaving portions of it that are exposed for a couple of weeks,
you just basically dig trenches backwards, and so you minimize the amount of face disturbance
that you have. (Tim) Okay. (Eric) If that makes sense. (Tim) Right. Right. And really managing
(17:23):
that silage is very important. (Eric) Absolutely! Yeah, because you put a lot of time and investment
in growing that crop, one. And two, um... now you've preserved it. And so, don't mess it
up on stage 3. (Tim) So if I'm in a big cattle area that's not traditionally a corn area, and I
plant... I plant corn with... with the idea of silage, uh... get hit with the drought like I
(17:48):
normally would, is that okay to make silage out of, or am I hurting myself? (Eric) So you know,
University of Nebraska has done a really nice job. That's corn silage is... is an important...
corn is an important resource to the beef cattle industry in the state of Nebraska, as it is to
everywhere else, but Nebraska has been leaders for a long time in not just corn grain usage,
(18:10):
but corn silage, corn stock grazing, you know, they've... they've done a lot of alternative stuff
with corn. And so, they'll... what their studies have shown is that even drought corn silage,
so long as it's at least... I think it's... the minimum threshold is... it's either 40 or 80
bushels, and I don't remember. It'll still be 65% TDN. So I mean, even drought corn silage is still
(18:37):
a viable feed stuff option. The thing you have to be concerned about is managing your moisture,
right? Because you're... you're not going to get a good pack if it's too dry. (Tim) Sure. (Eric) And
you're not going to exclude oxygen effectively, so then it's going to mold. (Tim) And what was
it? About 65% moisture is what we want? (Eric) The ideal corn silage moisture is 65%. (Tim) And
I've... I've heard the folks talk about the... the milk layer. (Eric) Yep. (Tim) There's
(18:59):
a... is there... is there a publication that actually shows you where that milk layer is?
How to read that? (Eric) There... there's multiple publications out there. University of Wisconsin,
um... they've got a real nice dairy silage making publication that I would recommend folks check out
that would have pictures just as you described. (Tim) Good. Yes, cuz that's so important. You
know, another thing that I always wondered about on silage, do I go with a grain type corn or
(19:27):
silage corn? (Eric) So you know, unfortunately, I'm going to say that's... that's... I'd be
out over my skis if I made a statement there because... (Tim) But that's up to... that's up
to the producer? (Eric) And... and any agronomist that they might be working with, you know,
as well. So that's... I, yeah... I don't... (Tim) But there is a brown mid-rib line in some of them
that I've heard them talk about a little bit... a little bit higher quality. (Eric) So yeah,
(19:50):
I'm... I'm a little less familiar with BMRs. Um... I know more about them from a sorghum
standpoint. (Tim) Sure. Right. I think some corns are that way now. (Eric) Okay. (Tim) Yeah,
so... so there's... so there's quite a bit of opportunities that you can grow a very
specific. (Eric) Yeah, but I would also say to the producers not to lose the forest for the trees,
(20:11):
you know, at... at this point if this is year one of feeding corn silage. (Tim) Right. Right.
But... but... but future years. (Eric) Yeah. (Tim) Now the thing I like about corn silage
if I'm growing it myself is I'm harvesting in August, now I got some time to grow a... a forage
cover crop! (Eric) Yep! Absolutely. (Tim) That I could graze in the... in the... in the winter,
or maybe I could even make some haylage out of it! (Eric) Absolutely. I completely agree. That's one
(20:36):
of the reasons... one of the flexibilities that can be provided to, uh... the farmer,
um... in harvesting that grain. That... cuz that's the earliest you're going to harvest it, right? So
you could also harvest high moisture corn at, you know, 30% moisture, which will get it off a little
earlier, but... but yeah, certainly if you're harvesting your... your spring/summer crop in
(20:58):
August, that gives you a lot of flexibility for... (Tim) Right. Cuz, uh... annual... having annual
forages is a big part of raising livestock. (Eric) Absolutely. (Tim) I mean, we just cannot depend
always on our perennial crops. (Eric) Well, we've also got to... we've got to convince our... our
row crop farmer friends that they need to not tear the fences out and provide some reasonable access
(21:21):
to water as well so that we can utilize that. Cuz I would argue that the biggest difference between
Nebraska and many other states in the Corn Belt is that they have prioritized having infrastructure
for livestock to be integrated into crop ground still, whereas many other places, I mean, the...
(21:41):
it's from bar ditch to bar ditch, right? On either side of the highway. And so the fences are gone.
The infrastructure for livestock is gone. There's tremendous opportunity north of I-70 to reintegrate
livestock into row crop agriculture. And... and I think the potential economic impact would shock
people if they thought about it long enough, but the reality is is that the reason it's not there
(22:06):
is we sorely lack the infrastructure. (Tim) North Missouri is actually probably in the bullseye of
great forage production. You know, the... the... the climate, Southern Corn Belt, it just... it
just really fits that very, very well. (Eric) Absolutely. (Tim) So... so we can make corn silage
now, but are we going to have to supplement a high pro... some protein with this now? (Eric) That's
(22:29):
a great... I'm glad you brought that up, Tim! I was... I was afraid we were going to get away from
that. So you know, corn silage is roughly 9% crude protein, and if anything, it's marginally deficient
in crude protein. It's not significant. But you know, what I tell farmers, with dried distillers
grains being as prevalent as they are today, a really simple ration that works real nice, if you
(22:52):
have the... the ability to mix it on an as-fed or on a wet basis, nine parts corn silage/one
part dried distiller grains. So that'll... that on a dry matter basis, that'll balance out to a
ration that's got roughly 12 1/2% crude protein, maybe 13%. I'm... it's been a minute since I've
done that math, so I have... (Tim) But 9 to 1? (Eric) 9 to 1, yeah. (Tim) Wow. And DDGs are a
(23:13):
lot more common then... then because there's a lot of ethanol plants around. (Eric) Absolutely! Yeah,
I mean... that's a very common feed. And certainly, that ration can be balanced with
other ingredients. There's nothing magical about it. (Tim) Soybean hulls? (Eric) Well, so soy hulls
I wouldn't use because soy hulls run between 11% and 13% crude protein, so you'd take a lot of soy
hulls in that ration to kind of bring the average up. The nice thing about the distiller's grains
(23:37):
is that it's 30% crude protein, so it's... (Tim) Oh, my goodness! (Eric) So it... it, you know,
it doesn't take much of it to raise the average pretty quick. (Tim) Or feeding straight soybeans,
I guess? Or ground some way. (Eric) Yeah, so even a whole soybean, uh... the biggest challenge you
run into there is fat content. So you know, being 20% fat, you really don't want a beef cow to eat
more than about 5 pounds of soybeans, whole... whole soybeans per day, uh... because you don't
(24:01):
want them to run into issues with fiber digestion. Too much fat in the diet reduces fiber digestion
in the rumen. (Tim) Oh, wow. (Eric) And so, it doesn't cause like a digestive upset per se, but
it reduces the efficiency of the use of your feed. So... (Tim) Okay. All right. Well, those are some
great, great, uh... rules of thumb, and... and looking at, uh... corn silage. And you all have a
(24:25):
lot of publications on that they can follow up on. (Eric) You bet. (Tim) That... that's fantastic!
Well, we're continuing our discussion with Dr. Eric Bailey. And we had great discussion on corn
silage and... and management and... and some rules of thumb on.... on feeding, but it's also time
in the... in the fall to start planning for spring because we got to think about next spring, summer
(24:49):
and even next fall as far as what we're going to feed, so what should we... we... we be thinking
about now? (Dr. Eric Bailey) Well, so you know, we're going into the winter with dry conditions,
right? So we're not rebuilding soil moisture. I'm... I'm a little concerned that if we have
continued dry weather, you know, we might end up starting the spring with one hand behind our
(25:14):
backs. Our... our... our forage might be getting off to a late start in perennial pasture... tall
fescue pasture. So... (Tim) Because do... do our perennials get set up in the... in
the fall for spring? (Eric) Absolutely, yeah. So cool-season grasses, right? So they... they...
they don't follow our calendar. Their year starts in the fall, right? And so they're vegetative in
the fall. They go dormant in the winter. They reemerge in the spring, vegetative again, then
(25:38):
they go reproductive, and then they go dormant in the summer. So really, the fall is kind of
the start of their calendar year. So... so yeah, there's... there's potential from my perspective,
one, for us to do damage by grazing the pastures into the ground, forcing them to use their root
carbohydrate reserves to generate new leaf material because the leaves are where they're,
(25:59):
you know, they're harvesting sunlight with, right? So, uh... so that's a concern. Um... you know,
if we have to start feeding hay early in the fall because it's dry, then that makes bale counting
in February and March tight, right? And... and then if we've got, you know, a... a late start
to our growing season and hay feeding season stretches out longer, that just puts a lot of
(26:23):
pressure on those inventories when we have barely filled the barns back up after the last drought,
so... (Tim) Cuz we got lucky last year. We had a very mild winter. (Eric)Yep. (Tim) If I know
we're... we're going to La Nina now, I believe, which... a little bit rougher winters usually,
longer winters... (Eric) Yep. (Tim) ...wet winters, and that could... that could cause
(26:44):
some issues. (Eric) Yeah, that's the... the mild winter we had last year saved our bacon, cuz we...
our hay supplies across the state were... they were real tight. (Tim) And we greened up
early. (Eric) And we greened up early. (Tim) So we got back on the pastures which was great. I
know that saved a lot like you said. So what... but every fall we should be planting. So what...
(27:06):
what should we be... be... be looking at now? (Eric) You know, that's a great question, Tim,
and I'm gonna... I'm going to take a hard left turn off of that. (Tim) All right! (Eric) So...
well, so I... I think one of the things that I... I'm... I'm concerned about, and I... I think I can
say this because I... I've... I've been here long enough that I... I feel like I've got a feel for
this system. You know, we've done a lot promoting the use of stockpiling forages and pastures,
(27:28):
and I don't know that the return on investment is there. Hear me out before everybody gets
their pitchforks out. (Tim) Well, mine's sharp right now. (Eric) My concern is I've been in
Missouri for seven years now, and I've seen two falls where we've had adequate precipitation to
develop stockpile. (Tim) Two out of seven. (Eric) Two out of seven. And I've got other colleagues
(27:49):
who will say that the stockpile they've seen has been one out of five. (Tim) Oh, wow. (Eric) Okay?
Every pound of nitrogen that we put down in the fall should grow somewhere in the neighborhood of
10 to 15 pounds of additional forage dry matter. That comes at an expense though,
right? We generally tell people to put down, what? 40 units of nitrogen in the fall, and if
(28:10):
nitrogen costs... let's say .70 cents a pound (I know I'm over. It's in the 60s right now),
but let's say .70 cents. That's $28 an acre that you're spending right there. What's my return on
investment from that practice? More importantly, I think from a carrying capacity standpoint on the
farm, I think a question that we have to ask ourselves, are the stocking rates that we are
(28:35):
currently using on our farms appropriate for what our land will produce in terms of forage? I mean,
you know historically we've talked about fescue producing, you know, four tons of forage dry
matter per acre. But, and... and that's a big broad stroke, and I know that everybody's soil
type and topography is different and climate is different, and... and that's just kind of
(28:58):
a real rule of thumb. But you know, I don't know that the number... the right number is not three
tons of fescue because we're just not seeing that fall hump, right? In that fall regrowth. And...
and I'm... I'm not saying that it doesn't happen. I'm not saying that my predecessors and colleagues
were wrong for promoting the use of stockpiling. I just think there's more variability in stockpiling
(29:25):
that we have to account for when we're thinking about making these kind of big picture decisions
for our farm, you know? Um... so for example, like when I had that rent farm in Randolph County, you
know, I thought I would run one set of stockers in the spring and doing my double stock model,
and then I'd be able to come back in the fall with about half the animals and get kind of a
(29:47):
second graze... a second graze period. And the two years that I did it, we had no precip in the fall,
and we had to ship the cattle early both years, and that was at the half the stocking rate we did
in the spring. So... (Tim) That could also affect if I'm going to plant, uh... annual cereal crops
in the late summer/fall. If I don't get the rain, I won't get the growth. (Eric) Yeah. And
(30:11):
that's... I think that's also a fair point. Now I'm not... don't... please don't take this away
that I don't think we should do cover crops or we should do any kind of anything in the fall, but
I just think there's... I'm at least seeing data that would support the idea that there's just more
variability in the precipitation during the fall. And that precipitation, right? So the number one
(30:34):
predictor of forage production is precipitation. So... (Tim) And those are setting us up maybe for
a good spring growth. You know, what we plant in the fall. (Eric) Yep, absolutely. (Tim) But...
we're talking about winter. The winter. (Eric) That's right. Yeah. And a lot of the cover
crops that we grow, right? So cereal rye, annual rye... you know, generally you get them sprouted
(30:55):
in the fall, they go dormant, but then they produce dramatically in the spring. (Tim) Yeah,
March/April. (Eric) There's not very many, other than maybe oats, that are prolific
producers of tonnage in the fall, um... to get you there. (Tim) Right. So we're talking about,
what are we going to graze in November, December, January, February? (Eric) Absolutely! And... and
I... I very much appreciate the idea of a forage chain. Having diversity of your forage crops in
(31:22):
your system, both perennial and annual, to... to basically reduce on the amount of days that you're
feeding hay. Cuz you... you have heard me say this before, but feeding hay costs two to three
times what it does for a cow to graze it herself. And, quite honestly, most people make the mistake,
and... and I will... I will say it plainly, they harvest hay at the worst time possible,
(31:45):
and they get the lowest quality feed possible. So... (Tim) Right. It seems like we do everything
else, and then we go harvest hay. (Eric) Exactly. It becomes the chore that gets done after all
the other chores are done. So... and that's, you know, I... I'm not saying that properly harvested
tall fescue is as good quality as corn silage, or alfalfa for that matter, but I think we leave some
(32:09):
opportunity on the table when we cut hay in June and July versus cutting it in late May. (Tim) One of
the better farm managers once told me, "I want to be done by Mother's Day." (Eric) Yeah. (Tim) And
he's producing some great quality hay. (Eric) Yeah. And a lot of, the... the two biggest things
I get push back on about that is it's hard to find a window where it's dry enough to get it
(32:33):
swathed, raked, dried down, um... in that stretch of the... the year (which I totally appreciate),
but you also have the opportunity to make baleage out of it, right? Because you can be
in and out of a field if you're... if you're wet wrapping hay in 24 hours. Two, they argue that
you get less tons... less pounds per acre, and they're not wrong, but the TDN value of that feed
(33:01):
you get is greater. And so on a pounds per TDN... of TDN, you get a similar amount of TDN just in a
smaller package, right? And so you're getting a higher quality feed and crude protein's greater,
it's just there's too many things to discount, you know? (Tim) Those mature stems don't pack much
nutrition. (Eric) No, they don't... they don't pack much nutrition, right? (Tim) So what do...
(33:24):
what do we do then? If... if... if stockpiling may not be the answer, what do we do? (Eric) That's a
great question, Tim. You know, I... I... circling back... (Tim) Sell the cows? (Eric) Well, circling
back to the original discussion, I... I... I truly believe that every person that has beef cattle in
this state needs to take a very hard look at what they're... how many cows they have, and what the
(33:48):
carrying capacity of their land is, and how much they're having to subsidize their cow herd with
labor, iron, and oil. Right? And so, by that I mean, how much time are you spending feeding
hay in the winter? How much time are you... how much equipment do you have to own to facilitate
the feeding of hay? Right? So I did this exercise, and I was guest lecturing in beef production this
(34:14):
spring, and I got on Big Iron and said, 'Hey, let's start a farm from scratch! We're going
to take, uh... 100 acre field, and we're going to assume it's square and flat, and it's good fescue,
and it's either going to go to hay production or it's going to go to grazing. What is the cost to
take raw land into the hay production practice or business, or to put five strand barbed wire fence
(34:37):
and dig a pond... a half-acre pond on it and graze cattle." It took us $200,000 in equipment to get,
and... and I... I didn't buy new! It was just... it was the... the same horsepower tractor that the,
uh... Missouri hay... fescue hay budget had on it. It was a hay trailer. It was a used pickup.
It was $200,000 in equipment to... to facilitate the cutting of hay off of this field, and it
(35:04):
was less than $35,000 to build the fence... (Tim) For grazing. (Eric) ...and... and dig a pond for
grazing. (Tim) Wow. (Eric) And so you think about it, right? So you've added value to that land when
you put up the fence, and you've dug a pond. All of this $200,000 you spent is going to be worth
half that in five - seven years, right? (Tim) That has to be replaced. (Eric) Depreciation.
(35:24):
Depreciation is the silent killer of the cattle business, and I don't think... I don't think that
we appreciate that enough as an industry. And that's why I try to set up systems that have
very low requirements for iron and... and oil because... and... and I... I know a lot of people
gripe about the, um... labor that it takes to feed hay in the winter, too, and that's a real cost,
(35:49):
but it's the depreciation of these... of these assets that I just, I... that's why I think a lot
of folks don't make any money in the business. Now, you can come back and say, "Well, I run
20-year-old equipment, and I've got everything paid for, and, and, and... ," and then in that case
labor becomes a larger part of that cost. But you know, the reason, Tim, that the young people
(36:12):
aren't coming back to the farm is because it takes $200,000 to... (Tim) Right. (Eric) ...to make hay
off of 100 acres. (Tim) And also, you're exporting nutrients. (Eric) Oh, absolutely! (Tim) Even if
you're keeping them on your own farm somewhere else, you got to bring them back. (Eric) Yeah,
cuz you're not... you know, most farmers are feeding that hay in a designated
spot... (Tim) Yes. (Eric) ...and they're concentrating the nutrients in that area. They're
(36:32):
not unrolling hay out across these fields, right? Because, uh... I mean, cattle take less than 20%
of the N,P and K out of a bale for themselves. The vast majority of it comes out the hind end
as manure and is recycled back onto the field. So we pull fertility out of these areas at a much
(36:53):
slower rate when we graze. And in particular, we can even concentrate that manure effectively if
we implement a managed grazing system. (Tim) Right. (Eric) Right? So you know, you're...
you're absolutely right from a fertilizer value perspective. I mean, I think the question becomes
in the grazing system, outside of maybe lime, do we really need... and much N,P or K in general?
(37:17):
In fact, I know folks that have not... have gone away from using N,P and K just because they've...
they've really sort of doubled down on their grazing. (Tim) Whereas, you take soil tests from
fields that have been hayed, the P and K levels are pretty low. (Eric) Absolutely. And then you
see broomshedge come in, and you've got all these other invasives, you know, and... and that's...
that's certainly a... a big concern. (Tim) So what do we do? (Eric) Well, so I... you know,
(37:43):
I'm... I'm a big proponent of, I think we have that conversation about what our carrying capacity
truly is, and I would say that the average Missouri farm does not need to have one single
enterprise of livestock anymore. So right? So back in the day, every farm had pigs and chickens and
cattle. I see a future where we diversify within a livestock, um... class, like cattle. I would love
(38:11):
to see every farm in Missouri take about half of their carrying capacity, what their land can truly
support, and devote that to cows like they always have. The other half of their carrying capacity,
devote that to developing heifers, raising grazing stockers, backgrounding their own calves,
custom grazing cattle for somebody else with the theory that, essentially what I've done is,
(38:36):
I have, um... put flexible grazers on my farm. Those cattle can come or go at any
time essentially. (Tim) Sure. (Eric) And so, right? So we get all this fescue in the spring.
We have more fescue than we know what to do with for 60 days. Let it be grazed by something that
can make us money. Something that doesn't require $200,000 of equipment. And when there's no more
(39:01):
grass to graze, they go home. Now, rather than three acres a cow, I've gone back and I've said,
"Okay, my true stocking rate probably ought to be more like four to five acres per cow, but I'm only
using half of my acres. So now, rather than... let's say four acres per cow, I really have eight
acres per cow/calf pair." And so, what that does is that provides drought insurance. That reduces
(39:25):
the, um... the need for feeding hay in the winter. That extends the grazing season. That allows...
facilitates easier stockpiling. To me, we just... we have to diversify how we use our carrying
capacity. (Tim) So could I... say, I'm going to have my stockers in the spring when I have all
this forage... (Eric) Yep! (Tim) ...and then by July, they're gone to the feed lot? (Eric) Well,
(39:48):
and that's the whole reason I've been doing this double stocking research in Mount Vernon and...
and challenging the paradigm that stocker cattle don't gain weight on Kentucky 31 tall fescue. My
work is clearly shown over the past five years that, yes, they gain a lot of weight early,
but if you try to make them graze once the fescue has gone... has put up a seed head and
(40:09):
gone dormant in... you know, late June, July and August, they're not going to gain diddly. In fact,
they might even go backwards during that period of time. But they'll gain tremendously well in April,
May and in the mo... the majority of June. So... (Tim) So... so when would that fit best with a
calving? That... that I can take full advantage of that? (Eric) So that... that's a great question,
(40:30):
Tim. You know, I think in that system, you're probably still looking at a spring calving system,
right? So February/March calving system. I... I... I like the fall calving system,
and I know a lot of folks have... have seen, um... benefits of switching from spring to fall, but the
concern with the fall calving is just simply if our fall stockpile growth is variable. Now,
(40:55):
if I don't bring any additional outside cattle in in the fall, I've got more acres to run my...
my fall pairs on, so I could probably get away with fall. But I also like the idea of having
as many animal units on the place as possible in the spring, eating as much of that excess
forage away, so that I don't have to harvest the excess forage as dry hay. So... (Tim) So
(41:16):
if it's born in February, it's going to be weaned... (Eric) October. September/October.
(Tim) So that's when... that's when it's going to be. (Eric) Yeah. So then I'm basically trying
to get a dry cow through the winter rather than trying to get a nursing lactating cow.
Because we know that there's... every two and a half days that a calf is weaned off
of a cow is one day's worth of feed for a cow... in the milk that she produces,
(41:41):
right? So her nutrient requirements drop by 40% when the calf is weaned. And so if I'm going to
go into my toughest forage months, I would want to do that with animals at the lowest nutrient
requirements. (Tim) Sure... sure. (Eric) I think the question that comes up when I talk about these
things, "Oh, that sounds like something that a guy that has 500 cows could do most effectively!"
(42:03):
That's not an unfair criticism. But, even a guy with a 100 cows, if he cuts down to 50 cows,
he'll still have room for a semi-load of stockers in the spring. So the... the logistic numbers work.
Now the guy that has 35 cows, I think that's where the question gets more difficult, right? Because
at that point, okay... so I'm going to have 20 cows and 40 stockers and... you know, like the
(42:29):
numbers get too small where it's like, does it really make sense? To those folks I would say,
"Do you really have to have cows? Should I just have stockers instead?" (Tim) Right! (Eric) Or,
do I try to expand my business by taking on lease ground so that I can grow the operation? Or,
simply do I custom graze for somebody else? I mean, that's the ultimate flexibility comes in
(42:51):
custom grazing. And I mean, just think about a custom grazing business where,
uh... in 2022 and 2023, if you had grass, right? So George Carlin said back in the 70s, "He who
has all the supply can demand whatever he wants for it." He said it a little more colorfully than
that. But... but if you think about it, I mean, there were guys last year and the year before
(43:12):
that were spending over $4 a cow a day in hay. Right? (Tim) Oh, wow. (Eric) So even if you as
a custom grazer came in and said, "Hey, Tim! Come graze your cows on my farm for $2.50 a day,"
(which is a double what the kind of prevailing market rate for grazing dry cows is). You win. I
win. (Tim) Sure. (Eric) Everybody wins in that case because you cut your... you cut your...
(43:37):
your feed bill in the winter substantially. You get paid above market rate because your grass
appreciated. I... I just think... I think the smaller you are, the more flexible you've got
to be. And beef cows, I... I love cows, right? So people have accused me of being anti-...
anti-mama cow. I grew up with cows. I... I do not have a problem with them, but the weak...
(44:00):
fundamental weakness of a beef cow, she's got to eat 365 days a year, and our grass does not grow
365 days a year. (Tim) That's really intriguing because I think you and some of your colleagues
have said that if you get right down to it, those with 35 head don't make any money. They actually
lose money. (Eric) Well, and yeah. So I... (Tim) Because... because they're, uh... their cost are
(44:23):
more. (Eric) Well, and that's... that's the hard part about this too is that even the closer we get
to the smaller beef operations, it becomes less about economics and more about egonomics. And so,
but then when you're losing, you're losing on a smaller scale, so it... you may not feel it. And
so, you know, that becomes challenging. That... Wesley Tucker came up with that "egonomics" term.
(44:45):
That is definitely not mine, but it's so good that I steal it and use it every place I can get. (Tim) If
you just have stockers, your investment's not that much. (Eric) Yeah. (Tim) And it's shorter
period. You can get out anytime you want. (Eric) Yep. (Tim) You can skip it if you need to, but you
still have animals on your place. You still... that's a... there's a lot of it with less...
(45:07):
less headaches because, uh... having babies is not easy. (Eric) Oh, absolutely not. No, it's
it's definitely not. Now, I will bring up another common sort of objection to this system is, um...
getting playing with the market, right? So feeder cattle stocker price goes up, it goes down, right?
(45:28):
So you're taking on a fair bit of market risk. That's why I think you just got to find somebody
else to custom graze for as you learn this other segment of the business. If you can offer a
cheaper price per pound of weight gained than what they can do in their dry lot, their backgrounding
lot or in the feed lot, you'll find them. And and it's going to take some hustling calling sale
(45:49):
barns, calling people you know. I mean, if... if you're willing to put a little effort in, a
potential dance partner can be found where they'll take... you'll take in their cattle. (Tim) But if
you had that 100 acres that we talked about before of well-maintained pasture, get... you can get
paid for your management... (Eric) Oh, absolutely! (Tim) ...of... of your pasture. Not so much your
(46:11):
management of a mama cow and her... and get her bred back and get... (Eric) Well, and that's why
I get so fired up about it because if you look at it on a pure cash flow basis, a custom graze
on leased land is the lowest barrier to entry to get into the cattle business, and that's
why I rented that farm in Randolph County. It took me... so my lease was $12,000 a year, and I bought
(46:35):
about $6,000 in equipment to get started, and I made that back the first... the first grazing
season. Right? So after that it was gravy. (Tim) Wow. (Eric) So that was... it was... we are not
going to bring the kids back to the farm with promises of equity, right? Because historically,
(46:55):
we've built equity with the farm, but we've had to subsidize the farm with off-farm income to provide
cash flow to pay the bills. Right? And so farming has historically been a long-term investment type
play that requires having a job in town. Well then, by the time you built a farm to any size
(47:15):
scale, you're probably 45 to 50 years old, and you have two full-time jobs now and kids that are
probably in high school, right? So you've got more irons in the fire than you need to do with. If you
could have a... a... a business that generates cash flow on day one that doesn't require
hundreds of thousands of dollars of investment, that's how we give kids a fighting chance to get
(47:38):
started in the cattle business. (Tim) To get them to come back to the farm. (Eric) Yep! (Tim) That's
right. All right. Well, Eric, this has been a fascinating, uh... discussion, and it just gave
a lot of room for thought. I thought about my own background. That's what we did.
We backgrounded cattle in the winter time, and in the spring when we had all the tall fescue, and in
(47:59):
the winter where we could graze cornstalks, cover crops, and that sort of thing. So you can make it
fit to what your system is. (Eric) Absolutely. (Tim) That's what's nice. All right. Well,
thanks, Eric, so much! Uh... and this is it for Tim's Take. See you next time.
[♫]
(Tim) That was great!
[♫]
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