Most Likely Suspect: David Camm (re-release)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
True Crime Brewery contains disturbing content related to real life crimes.
Medical information is opinion based on facts of a crime
and should not be interpreted as medical advice or treatment.
Listener discretion is advised.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
Welcome to True Crime Brewery, TI Grabbers, I'm Chill.

Speaker 3 (00:26):
And I'm Dick.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
When former state trooper and serial philanderer David Kam's family
was shot to death in their garage, he was the
most likely suspect. Evidence at the scene and opinions of
family and friends prompted detectives to perform lengthy interrogations. Prosecutors
were convinced of his guilt based on forensic evidence, including

(00:51):
blood stained pattern analysis. Cam was convicted in his first trial,
but the conviction was overturned on the basis of prejudicial
testimony about his infidelities. Then a reevaluation of crime scene
evidence identified the modus operandi and DNA evidence from a
career criminal. Did one of these men act alone? Or

(01:15):
did Davidkam hire this man to kill his family? Join
us at the quiet end For most likely suspect. We're
starting way at the beginning with the early relationship of
David and Kim Cam. Learning about their marriage and their family,
then examining testimony and evidence from Cam's three separate murder trials.
So this is a really interesting case.

Speaker 3 (01:38):
Very interesting. The likelihood of a murder conviction being overturned
on appeal is about zero, so the likelihood of two
murder convictions being overturned should be.

Speaker 2 (01:49):
Lesson zero, right, Yeah, I would imagine.

Speaker 3 (01:52):
Infinitesimally unlikely, very rare. So I'm glad we did this case,
if only because now I get to do some Indiana bears.
What I chose today was a pretty famous one called
Zombie Dust, brewed by three Floyd's Brewing Company in Munster, Indiana.
It's an American palal six point two percent alcohol by volume,

(02:13):
one of the world class beers. This is a copper
amber color, very dense white head and a ton of lace.
Pretty looking beer, nice aroma, some bread, some floral hops,
citrus fruit, tropical fruit really shines in the taste, kind
of a caramel background. Got some grape fruit, pineapple, mango,

(02:36):
little tiny hint of pine late in the taste. The
nice crisp, very very good beer.

Speaker 2 (02:41):
All right, let's open it up.

Speaker 3 (02:50):
So Jill, let's go quiet end. You know where we're at.
Right now. The quarantine quiet end.

Speaker 2 (02:56):
Absolutely, I'm getting used to it.

Speaker 3 (02:57):
Well, it does have certain appeal, sure, I guess well,
and I can wear my pajamas right, so that's always nice.

Speaker 2 (03:07):
All right, you go ahead and start because there's a
lot to talk about here, for sure.

Speaker 3 (03:10):
Is so. David Cam was born into an illustrious family.
He can trace his ancestors back to the fourteenth century
of Scotland. In sixteen eighty three, Captain James Lockhart emigrated
to America and settled in Virginia. Cam's maternal great grandfather
was a preacher, so are many of the men in

(03:31):
his family. His maternal grandfather, Amos, settled in southern Indiana.
He married a woman named Daisy Belcher in nineteen thirty.
Now Amos did whatever work he could find. He and
Daisy had nine children together. Their second child was the
daughter they named Delpha Susie, and that is Davidkam's mother,

(03:53):
all right. Amos and his family ended up in New Albany, Indiana,
and that's where Susie met Don Cam. They got married
in nineteen fifty six. Don took a job with B. F. Goodrich.
David Kam was the third of four children he was
born in nineteen sixty four. The Cams were part of
a large extended family that lived in the area and

(04:15):
very close with their relatives, and the Georgetown Community Church
played a very important part in their lives.

Speaker 2 (04:22):
Right. So, when David was five years old, he had
an accident on his bicycle and he got a kidney infection.
So due to this, he missed most of the first
year of school, and when he did go to school,
he was behind the other students. He missed a lot
of work. He also had a lot of difficulty with
reading and writing, so he was eventually diagnosed with dyslexia.

(04:45):
But David was a natural athlete and he did play
high school football and basketball. I don't know how this
bike accident led to a kidney infection though, Well, what.

Speaker 3 (04:55):
He did gashed up his legs and developed a strep
and got impetago type of thing. Yes, and the strep
bacteria can get into your bloodstream and it can damage
the kidney. It's a condition called post streptococcal acute glomerio
and nephritis, which is a big mouthful for kidney infection. Okay, Now,

(05:18):
that's usually recoverable without any permanent damage, but sometimes it
does lead to long term kidney damage, but most people
do recover uneventually, and.

Speaker 2 (05:28):
As far as we know, he did so. David's uncle Leland,
who was a preacher, and his uncle Nelson, who was
a state policeman, were very early influences in David's early life.
Then David began suffering from migraine headaches in the third
grade and he continued to have those throughout his life.

(05:48):
And that sounds horrible. I just hate to have a headache,
and I can't imagine having migraines all the time.

Speaker 3 (05:54):
No, I know, sometimes we're quite debilitating. He used Amatrex shot,
So it's not a good thing.

Speaker 2 (06:02):
Well, no, because it seems like people with these chronic
headaches can miss out on a lot of things because
you pretty much have to shut yourself up in the
dark until it goes away. But David graduated high school
in nineteen eighty two and quickly found work in an
autobody shop and he became an excellent mechanic. But he
still had hopes to become a minister, but that went

(06:25):
out the window when he impregnated his girlfriend. So neither
of the teenagers were ready for marriage, but their parents
pushed him into it. It's the early eighties, so that's
still mainly what they did. And they all felt it
would be just too scandalous to have a baby out
of wedlock because this is a religious family.

Speaker 3 (06:44):
That's right, and that was the main force behind the marriage.
This would just reflect terribly on the families.

Speaker 2 (06:51):
Well, and it still didn't work out though, right, No,
So they were married in November of nineteen eighty two.
This was David and his girlfriend Tamara Zimmerman, and she
went by Tammy, and Tammy moved into the camhouse with David.

Speaker 3 (07:06):
Yeah, the plan was that once the baby was born
that got established a little bit, that they move into
an apartment of their own.

Speaker 2 (07:13):
Well. Sure, but when she was thirty weeks pregnant, Tammy
went into labor and had a healthy little girl that
they named Whitney. That's kind of early ten.

Speaker 3 (07:23):
Weeks, yeah, it is. And I guess she did pretty
well because there wasn't any long notes that I found
about hospital stay and the NIKU or anything like that,
so she apparently didn't have much in the way of
post natal problems.

Speaker 2 (07:39):
So once they got back settled into the house with
their new baby, David felt like he needed to get
a better job to provide for his family, and that's
when he decided he'd like to be a policeman. He
got a job as a volunteer auxiliary policeman in the
New Albany Police Department, and he showed a lot of
promise there. I mean so much so that the chief

(08:00):
of police suggested that he join the Indiana State Police,
which was a big deal. The State Police were really
looked up to.

Speaker 3 (08:09):
Yeah, they were kind of the big shots and the
police fraternity. Now maybe it was inevitable because they did
get married when they were like eighteen nineteen years old,
but the Cam's marriage suffered. David was convinced that Tammy
was still in touch with an old boyfriend, and by
nineteen eighty six they were divorced. So they were married
for just about four years, three and a half four years.

(08:33):
Then over the next two years, David took courses so
he could join the Indiana State Police. While doing all this,
he continued to work at the body shop and serve
as a volunteer policeman. Then, early in nineteen eighty eight,
he was set up for a blind date by a
friend of his. This was a very attractive young lady

(08:55):
named Kimberly Wren, and it was love at first sight
for both of them.

Speaker 2 (09:00):
Really, I don't know if I believe in that. I mean,
I could see they were attracted and they got along
and they hit it off. But love at first sight, yeah,
what a I know, that's a big exaggeration, I think. Okay,
But Kim Wren had been a grade below David at
the New Albany High School, but they'd never met. While
they were there, she was an excellent student and she

(09:22):
participated in many extracurricular activities. After graduation, Kim went to
Indiana University Southeast and majored in accounting. So she graduated
in just three years and got a job with Capital
Holding Insurance Corporation, and then that was acquired in nineteen
ninety seven by Agon Insurance Company.

Speaker 3 (09:45):
Yeah, Kim did very very well in her job, so.

Speaker 2 (09:49):
She was kind of the breadwinner at least early on.

Speaker 3 (09:52):
Oh yeah, yeah, for many years she was making twice
as much more than twice as much as David. But
she did adore him, that she did, so they got
married on May thirteenth, nineteen eighty nine. David's uncle Leland
performed the ceremony. They had a honeymoon in Florida, and
then they moved into an apartment in New Albany. And

(10:14):
then shortly after they started their married life together, David
was notified that he had been accepted by the Indiana
State Police. All right, newly wentz, he's got a good job.
She's got a good job.

Speaker 2 (10:27):
Yeah, but it kind of went to his head having
all that power. He was assigned to a post in
Scottsburg and then after a few months, transferred to Sellersburg.
David was a hard worker and quickly impressed his superiors.
In his second year with the Indiana State Police, David
was selected to the Emergency Response Team. And this was

(10:50):
really kind of an elite assignment, I guess it was.

Speaker 3 (10:54):
It was a very small number of people that got
into this team, and he got picked when he'd only
been with the State Police for two years. This is
a big deal.

Speaker 2 (11:05):
But his personality underwent quite a change. People would start
using the words arrogant, pompous, and cocky to describe him.
And he also seemed to be enjoying a lot of
admiration from women, which would cause trouble in the marriage.

Speaker 3 (11:22):
Absolutely one of the unofficial benefits at David's post in
Sellersburg was the presence of badge bunnies. These are women
who seem to enjoy various forms of sexual activity with
the troopers.

Speaker 2 (11:36):
That is just the weirdest thing I've ever heard, isn't it?
Like kind of like groupies of police.

Speaker 3 (11:42):
Yeah? Wow, there were women that had been sexually active
with five to ten patrolmen.

Speaker 2 (11:48):
And these were young, attractive women.

Speaker 3 (11:51):
They were young women probably somewhere attractive, sure, but yeah,
it's just I don't know if it was just this
one post, or if it was something that was endemic
for Indiana State Police or what.

Speaker 1 (12:03):
So.

Speaker 3 (12:03):
In nineteen ninety one, David was promoted again. This time
he was a field training officer and this meant he
would work individually with recruits. So one of his first
trainees was Shelley Romero, a good looking blonde lady in
her early twenties. Before long, they were sexually active. According

(12:25):
to Shelley Romero, this affair lasted off and on for
the next couple of years. While they're doing this, at
the same time, he and Kim were talking about starting
a family and at the same time, besides Trooper Romero
David was involved with several other women, and also at
the same time he met Stephanie McCarty personal trainer, and

(12:47):
this affair would almost break up his marriage.

Speaker 2 (12:51):
It came really close, didn't it.

Speaker 3 (12:53):
It did. We'll talk about that, but yeah, I just
don't see how you have the energy while he was young.

Speaker 1 (12:59):
Have to.

Speaker 3 (13:00):
I guess because he works, he's married, and he's having
sex with I don't know, three, four or five women.

Speaker 2 (13:07):
But wasn't a lot of the sex happening when he
was on duty and supposed to be working.

Speaker 3 (13:11):
Really Yeah, some of that it was he'd give his
girlfriend's rides or he'd pick him up in his car
while he was at work and I'd go to some
secluded area, roll around in the back seat a little bit,
that type of thing.

Speaker 2 (13:21):
So that's stuff he wasn't supposed to be doing. So
he really wasn't a very good trooper when you come
down to it.

Speaker 3 (13:27):
No, it was not things that were encouraged by the
state Patrol.

Speaker 2 (13:32):
Wow, that's putting it mildly. But Kim did become pregnant
and had their first child, Bradley, in February of nineteen
ninety three. This was a happy, healthy baby, and David's
daughter from his first marriage. Whitney really adored Bradley and
would often come over and spend time at the Cam's house.

(13:52):
So that was great because David was able to maintain
a good relationship with his older daughter even though he
was divorced from her mother.

Speaker 3 (14:00):
They did have a very good relationship until he got
accused of killing his family.

Speaker 2 (14:06):
Sure, and Kim was very open to her, which was helpful.
There was and Kim's work continued to go really well,
and she seemed like she could just manage motherhood and
work no problem. It seemed easy for her. But still
David was finding all this time to see other women,
including Trooper Romero after Bradley was born. And do we

(14:29):
really know if what Kim knew at this point about
that were their arguments.

Speaker 3 (14:34):
As far as I could find, there was no inkling
from Kim that David was doing all this stuff. She
did eventually find out about Stephanie, who we'll be talking about.

Speaker 2 (14:45):
Okay, let's talk a little bit about Stephanie then.

Speaker 3 (14:48):
So in the summer of nineteen ninety four, Stephanie McCarty
broke up with her longtime boyfriend and who was there
to comfort her David. Their relationships so turn sexual, and
over time, David told Stephanie that he was unhappy in
his marriage and he wanted to divorce Kim. Turns out
that not long after David started being active with Stephanie,

(15:12):
Kim got pregnant again. So when David told Stephanie that
his wife was pregnant, she broke up with him. Now,
this breakup lasted all of two days and then they
were back together. Kim had become increasingly suspicious he wasn't
real subtle about his affair with Stephanie. He took her

(15:32):
out in public, and there was a lot of things
that entered into him being found out. So she Kim
got more and more suspicious. She finally confronted David about
the affair. The result was that he told her he
was in love with Stephanie and he wanted to be divorced.
So he rented an apartment in New Albany. Very soon

(15:53):
after that, Stephanie rented an apartment right next door. Huh.

Speaker 2 (15:57):
Well, David's parents were super upset with their son about this.
They did not approve. They loved Kim like a daughter
and they even helped with the kids, and you know,
this was a happy family.

Speaker 3 (16:08):
This is the family that was so horrified that he
got a girl pregnant outside of marriage, that they said
he got to marry her, the scandal would be too great.
So I'm sure they were quite upset with their son.

Speaker 2 (16:20):
But then David and Kim's daughter, Jill, was born in
February of nineteen ninety five, and after her birth, Stephanie
felt more and more uncomfortable with her situation, and then
she started considering breaking it off with David.

Speaker 3 (16:34):
Yeah, she didn't like the role of homewrecker. Well sure,
and that's what people were thinking, right, Well, yeah, and.

Speaker 2 (16:41):
He's still having babies with the wife. It's not good.
So after coming home much later than anticipated, David confronted her,
and he actually pulled out a gun and pointed it
to his chest and threatened to kill himself, and Stephanie
was able to calm him down, and then she said
she thought it was best they just stopped seeing each other,

(17:02):
and I guess David finally agreed to that. So she
moved out of that apartment and then David went back
to move in with Kim.

Speaker 3 (17:11):
Yeah, I mean it was almost the same day or
the day after that. He and Stephanie agreed to end
their relationship. That he met with Kim and they got reconciled.
So it's like, well, I guess this isn't going to
work out. I'll go back to my wife.

Speaker 2 (17:27):
Yeah, but it really shows that he was quite unstable
his behavior there no kidd concerning well.

Speaker 3 (17:33):
Yeah, and then the other thing I found maybe not amusing,
but kind of hypocritical. He told his family that he
had a vision from God and God told him to
get back together with his family. Quite convenient, isn't it. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:47):
Well, after he and Kim were back together, David agreed
to build a home across the street from his grandfather Amos,
So he and Kim were surrounded by his family members,
the Lockharts, and it seemed like things were going to
be all right between the two. David was much better
with Kim kinder and paying more attention to her and
even doing some stuff to help around the house, which

(18:10):
is only fair because she's working too. It should have
been equal.

Speaker 3 (18:14):
Well, yeah, it wasn't quite equal.

Speaker 2 (18:17):
No, I'm sure it wasn't even close to equal. But
Kim really liked his family, She liked the Lockharts, and
they were so welcoming and friendly, and the kids got
along well, so that was all working out pretty well.

Speaker 3 (18:28):
Yeah, it wasn't a compound or anything like that, but
they did have street they lived on was Lockhart Drive,
and I said private road, and there were just Lockharts
in those houses around there. And the kids, Kim and
Dave's kids fit in quite well with the other kids
in the neighborhood. There are roughly the same ages and

(18:49):
just played great together.

Speaker 2 (18:51):
Yeah, cousins and stuff like that.

Speaker 3 (18:53):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (18:54):
But David continued his role of field training officer as well,
and in late night eighteen ninety six, he was working
with another female new recruit, Laurie Rumph, and after work
one night, he propositioned her, as he was often doing
to women, but she declined his invitation, which probably just

(19:14):
made him want or more because that's the kind of
guy he was, So he continued hitting on different women,
including Laurie. But one of the other women that he
was hitting on was named Michelle Voyles. They had met
years earlier when David had pulled her over for a
broken brake light. In June of nineteen ninety seven, they

(19:35):
met again and David invited her to a car show,
and of course they started having sex. Then over the
next few months it got pretty hot and heavy. They're
having sex two or three times a week, and I
don't know where they're doing it. I hope not in
the car.

Speaker 3 (19:51):
Well, sorry to disappoint you. Yeah, sometimes his patrol car.
Sometimes they'd go to a secluded area put a blanket out.

Speaker 2 (20:01):
So this was before body cameras. Oh yeah, Oh, they
get quite an interesting movie off of David Camps.

Speaker 3 (20:08):
He would probably forget to turn it on, well, I
would think so. Eventually Michelle found out that David was married,
because that was his thing. I mean, he'd hit on
these women and they'd surreptitiously check him out for a
wedding ring, and he didn't buy the wearing his wedding ring. So,
as far as Michelle was concerned, David was single. But
she discovered he was married and she broke up with him. Well,

(20:29):
good for her, Well this is a recurring thing.

Speaker 2 (20:32):
Well, no kidding.

Speaker 3 (20:33):
These women wouldn't have any problems for the most part
having sex with him.

Speaker 2 (20:37):
Well, I mean he was fairly attractive when he was younger. Well,
in early nineteen ninety nine, David was involved in a
high speed chase with two other troopers, and when the
speeding driver was stopped, the other troopers beat that guy
up and then there was a lawsuit filed. So David
wasn't actually involved in the beating, so he was eventually

(20:59):
ex onedd but he felt the Indiana State Police had
not been very supportive of him. But I'm wondering why
they would be. I mean, if he was there, he
saw what was happening and he didn't do anything.

Speaker 3 (21:10):
To stop, it sounds very timely, I know.

Speaker 2 (21:13):
I just wonder was this an African American driver.

Speaker 3 (21:17):
We're not sure. Yeah, but anyway, he stopped, he was
beat up, and David felt that he was highway police
brethren were not being very supportive of him. Then a
few months later he got even more dissolution. He wanted
to be a detective, but he was turned down. Not
only was he turned down, but they gave the job

(21:39):
to a friend of his from childhood way back in
the day, Sean Clemens, and he had joined the force
with David's.

Speaker 2 (21:47):
Encouragement, so he'd come in after David.

Speaker 3 (21:51):
Came in after David, and they were sitting there bullshitting around,
and David said, you know, Sean you'd be a good cop.
Why don't you apply?

Speaker 2 (22:00):
I don't know. If David seems like the greatest guy really.

Speaker 3 (22:03):
Well, you know, he doesn't come across that way, does he.

Speaker 2 (22:06):
No, he seems like a bit of a jerk to
say the least. And you know, then he what leaves
the police because he doesn't get to be a detective.

Speaker 3 (22:16):
Well that's one facet of it.

Speaker 2 (22:19):
That was one thing that pushed him in that direction.

Speaker 3 (22:21):
I mean, he was already unhappy with them for not
backing him up more.

Speaker 2 (22:27):
I know, but it seems like he was really getting
away with a lot of shit.

Speaker 3 (22:31):
Yeah, but that was what everyone was getting away with.
Oh okay, so it's at least again for his assignment
his post, that was kind of the norm. The person
who answered the phone at their post said she was
hit upon constantly by David and other troopers.

Speaker 2 (22:49):
Oh. The dispatcher at the police headquarters.

Speaker 3 (22:52):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (22:53):
Well this was a very sexist environment.

Speaker 3 (22:55):
Oh for sure. Women. I either had to put up
with that stuff or they left some and went someplace else.

Speaker 2 (23:01):
So in January of two thousand, David was offered a
job by his uncle Sam, and Sam owned United Dynamics, Inc.
That's a company that repaired foundations in homes.

Speaker 3 (23:13):
There was kind of like two of them, two companies
under the same name, and one did this foundation repair
and the other part of it did the waterproofing for
the foundations, and David joined the group that was doing
the waterproofing part.

Speaker 2 (23:29):
Well, he'd work there as a teenager, so he knew
the business. He certainly did, so in February of two thousand,
he started working part time for the company and did
really well, and then he decided to work there full time.
And that's when he gave up the state police pension,
which was a big thing.

Speaker 3 (23:47):
That was a big thing, but his income almost doubled
kind of immediately when he started, so it was not
a bad trade off. I'm losing my pension, but I'm
making a lot more money.

Speaker 2 (23:59):
Sure, So David officially left the state police position in
May of two thousand and he wanted to keep his gun,
that was a thirty eight caliber pistol, but then he
decided he didn't want to keep it when the state
Police wouldn't give him a discount because you'd have to
purchase it.

Speaker 3 (24:15):
Yeah, you're not just giving your gun as a memento
of your time with the State Police.

Speaker 2 (24:20):
Now, in the movies, you always have to turn it
in with your badge when you leave. Why the hell
would he need it to do foundation work?

Speaker 3 (24:28):
You got me, It's a very good question. Now, he
really did great in his new job, and his division
became very profitable. Like I said, his income was almost
twice as much as he earned with the Indiana State Police.
It was a nicer schedule, certainly, no nights, right right, Yeah,
And what he ended up doing was working Monday to

(24:49):
Thursday Fridays. For days off, they played golf and hung
out and did brow things. And then every once in
wh I needed to work a Saturday.

Speaker 2 (24:59):
So he was working with relatives that he would go
golfing with. Yeah, okay, whose extended family who ended up
being very supportive of him. Yes, So he also started
going to Pet's Show Club, which was a strip joint
in Louisville. In fact, he became a regular there. So
he still likes the women, and he really even got

(25:19):
to know some of the dancers. So I'm imagining he
had sex with.

Speaker 3 (25:22):
Them, probably, although that's not something of common knowledge, but
you would think, right given.

Speaker 2 (25:30):
His history, if he could, if they were willing, he
would I'm not saying they all would be willing to,
but that would certainly be what I would see him
going after. Well, the church that David and his family
went to, Georgetown Community Church, was expanded in two thousand
and had a new gym put in. So Sam Lockhart,

(25:50):
that's the uncle.

Speaker 3 (25:51):
Uncle Sam had been.

Speaker 2 (25:53):
Pushing for starting a weekly Thursday night basketball game. So
this came to be in August of two thousand and
These were pickup games, which means what whoever just shows
up plays, Whoever.

Speaker 3 (26:05):
Shows up and will play five on five, four on
four or whatever. However many show up, do a game
to twenty points or something, then switch shoff.

Speaker 2 (26:15):
I don't need all the details.

Speaker 3 (26:16):
Okay, Sorry, I was just telling me about pickup basketball.

Speaker 2 (26:20):
Okay, I just wanted to vaguely know what it is.
I don't need to be involved in it.

Speaker 3 (26:24):
Now you know more than vaguely.

Speaker 2 (26:26):
Yeah. So these started at seven pm on Thursdays and
usually lasted about two hours, so till about nine.

Speaker 3 (26:32):
Yeah. The routine, because David was a regular, and what
they ended up doing was that they'd play for a
couple hours and then when they're done, David would take
up a collection from the players to pay for the
electricity they had used and just kind of renting the gym,
helping to defray costs for the gym. Oh okay, So

(26:54):
he would be the last one to leave after he'd
collected money and from his buddies.

Speaker 2 (27:00):
So this was August's end of summer, and during the
same time Kim. Kim wasn't feeling very well. She'd been
feeling kind of run down and she was having migraine
headaches along with some abdominal pain. So by the middle
of August, her mom was noticing that something was really
bothering Kim. She felt like Kim was just overextended, you know,

(27:21):
with work, family home projects.

Speaker 3 (27:24):
She would get up in the morning, take the kids
to school, drop them off because David had already left.
He had to be in the office by seven point thirty,
so it was up to Kim to get Tom to
school and then her mother or some relative would pick
him up. After school, Kim or David would pick him
up from wherever they were. They had extra curricular activities,

(27:46):
so Kim would take the kids to whatever they were doing.
David had a cushy job. He just had to be
a benevolent dad.

Speaker 2 (27:54):
Well, he could have done more, but he didn't.

Speaker 3 (27:56):
Yeah, he could have.

Speaker 2 (27:57):
He wasn't super helpful.

Speaker 3 (27:59):
No, he wasn't super helpful. But Kim was, I don't
want to say, an overachiever. But she didn't get on
him about that, and it was just that she took
care of that stuff and he took care of his stuff.

Speaker 2 (28:10):
Well, yeah, I mean she just really was always crazy
about him despite all this. Yeah, and she would really
do whatever it took.

Speaker 3 (28:17):
But I could certainly see where a mom would feel
that Kim was just tired because she was doing too much,
too much on her plate. That might not have been
why she was acting like she felt crappy.

Speaker 2 (28:31):
Well, in early September, Kim called her best friend Marcy,
who lived in Florida, and they discussed that Kim and
her kids should come and visit in Florida. And then
Kim said, history is repeating itself. She didn't elaborate, saying
that they could talk about it more when she and
the kids visited Florida. But what can we take from that?

Speaker 3 (28:51):
The biggest was that this was her best friend from
growing up, and she had discussed her breakup of her
marriage when David left her Stephanie Marcy was a big
help with her. So when she says to Marci, history's
repeating itself. The idea that Marcy got was that David
was screwing around again.

Speaker 2 (29:12):
Yeah, because he really did that a lot in the marriage.
Let's be honest, he did.

Speaker 3 (29:15):
Now, I don't know how much he was still doing
at the time that Kim was killed.

Speaker 2 (29:20):
Well, there must have been something going on for her
to say that.

Speaker 3 (29:23):
I would think, yeah, And just from looking at what
he had been doing, it's likely that he was still
screwing around on Kim.

Speaker 2 (29:30):
But did Marcy maybe not like David. No, she didn't,
so that could be part of it too. Okay. So
September twenty eighth, two thousand, this was an ordinary day,
you know, nothing special. David and Kim went to their
jobs and after work, Kim took Brad to his swim
practice and Jill who were dance practice, and David, you know,

(29:54):
let her take care of the kids, doesn't matter, she's
been working all day. I'm going to go play basketball
with my friends. So he's just a swell guy.

Speaker 3 (30:02):
Oh, you really like him.

Speaker 2 (30:04):
So he went to play basketball and left the gym
at nine to twenty two pm and that's by David's.

Speaker 3 (30:10):
Account, Yes, and whoever he was with at the end
of the game, he collected some money and they left.

Speaker 2 (30:17):
So it was a normal night of basketball.

Speaker 3 (30:19):
It was. But then at nine thirty pm, eight minutes
after he left, David and Kim lived down I know,
three or four minutes from the gym, because again everything's
right there. Yeah, So at nine thirty a call came
into the Sellersburg Post and on the phone was David
Cam just absolutely frantic. And you've heard this played.

Speaker 2 (30:40):
Yes, we've heard the call, and he does sound legitimately frantic.
I'll say that it was crazy. He sounds really upset.

Speaker 3 (30:47):
He says he got home and he found his wife
and kids all dead, and you can hear on the
call to the post. Get over here, I need you.
So fifteen minutes after the call, two troopers arrived at
his house. David told me I had gotten home from basketball,
and when he pulled into the driveway, he could see
Kim's garage door was open. And that's very unusual. They're

(31:10):
always closed. If the cars are in the garage, the
doors are.

Speaker 2 (31:13):
Closed well, and I would think that he would expect
them all to be in the house by then.

Speaker 3 (31:18):
Yeah, he was certainly expecting that swim practice and dance
practice were over and they're in the house waiting for him.

Speaker 2 (31:26):
Well, how old are the kids at this point?

Speaker 3 (31:28):
They're young, seven and five something like that, So.

Speaker 2 (31:31):
Nine thirty was probably about bedtime.

Speaker 3 (31:34):
Yeah, and I think there was something about nine thirty.
It is going to say, I'm going to be a
little bit late, and Kim's going to be upset with
me because the kids should have gotten their homework done.
I'm supposed to help with the homework and I wasn't there,
and blah blah blah.

Speaker 2 (31:48):
Okay, so her garage door's open, and according to David,
he looks and he sees Kim sprawled on the floor
of the garage with her pants off and blood on
the floor. Then looking into Kim's car, he saw the
bodies of his kids in the back seat. He said
that Brad still felt warm, so he pulled him from
the car and got him on the ground and tried CPR.

(32:13):
Then he ran across the road to his grandfather's house,
where he knew his uncle Nelson was and screamed at
them that someone had killed his family, so you don't
stop CPR To go run across the street. So we're
supposed to think he decided that Brad was dead before
he did that.

Speaker 3 (32:31):
He did, okay, and he said after the fact that
he wasn't sure he was doing it correctly, even though
he knew how to do it from his patrolman days.

Speaker 2 (32:39):
Yeah, that's weird, But he looked.

Speaker 3 (32:42):
And could tell that it wasn't going to matter that
the poor little boy was dead. Well.

Speaker 2 (32:47):
As a former state policeman, his uncle Nelson wanted to
secure the crime scene because they knew there was nothing
to do to save the family at this point.

Speaker 3 (32:57):
Right, So they cured the scene and that was a
good thing. Then Sean Clemens got there.

Speaker 2 (33:04):
Ooh, the detective that beat him out for the position.
But they were still friendly.

Speaker 3 (33:08):
They were still friendly. They were at least at this point.
It didn't survive, no, not at all. So when Clemens
was there, he ordered sweep of the house because he
wanted to make sure that nobody was inside with a
gun or something. Then he spoke with David and appeared
quite agitated. So Clemens sealed off the perimeter of the

(33:29):
house and he requested search warrants for the area. I mean,
you need to write well, of course he's a friend.

Speaker 2 (33:38):
Well, and I mean in defense of David, he didn't
seem to want any special favors.

Speaker 3 (33:43):
No, they told him from the beginning they were going
to do this by the book, and he said, fine,
just find out.

Speaker 2 (33:48):
Who did this exactly. So it was around ten thirty
when Floyd County prosecutor came to the scene, and he
was there for less than half an hour, but he
did speak with detective to Clements and he decided the
case was going to depend on DNA evidence and blood
spatter experts. He made that decision very quickly.

Speaker 3 (34:09):
Yeah, this was Prosecutor Faith who did the first trial.

Speaker 2 (34:13):
Now was he familiar with David? Did they have any
kind of interactions before, any kind of relationship?

Speaker 3 (34:20):
Good question, they might have, but there wasn't anything written
or spoken about that.

Speaker 2 (34:25):
So there was no complaint about that being a problem.
Not then, okay, So around midnight David went to the
Sellarsburg Post for an interview with detectives. He was very distraught,
and his interviewer told him he needed to be in control.

Speaker 3 (34:41):
Yeah, I didn't want him to hurt himself or anything
like that.

Speaker 2 (34:43):
Well, he was very distressed. He was beyond distressed, but
he consented to a polygraph, although I guess they never
went ahead and did that.

Speaker 3 (34:53):
They didn't prosecution never got interested enough to do it.

Speaker 2 (34:57):
That's strange.

Speaker 3 (34:58):
Well, you know, are you going to find out that
three days after the murders he was charged?

Speaker 2 (35:04):
So he gave over his clothes so they could analyze those.
And did they check his hands for gunshot residue as well?

Speaker 3 (35:11):
Nope?

Speaker 2 (35:12):
Okay, So of course there were autopsies done on Kim
and the children. Kim had died of a gunshot wound
to the head from a thirty eight bullet. Brad suffered
a gunshot wound with the bullet traveling from his left
shoulder and exiting from his right shoulder blade, so his
spinal cord was hit. And then there was some stippling

(35:32):
on the left side of his face, which would indicate
that the person who shot him was within a couple
of feet of him. Now little Jill had been shot
in the head and she also had stippling marks on
her face. Also, there was some evidence of sexual abuse,
and I don't know was it evidence of sexual abuse.

(35:53):
That would be debated.

Speaker 3 (35:55):
From what was written, there was some rashy redness in
them the genital area, and so the pathologist said that
that was evidence of abuse, but I just I don't
buy it. There was no evidence of vaginal injury, bruising, laceration,
nothing like that. The hymen was intact, which I know

(36:16):
doesn't mean that much. But other than the rash the redness,
there's no evidence that there had been any sexual abuse.

Speaker 2 (36:26):
And she was fully clothed, so no one was suggesting
that she was abused during the crime.

Speaker 3 (36:31):
Right. The other interesting thing was that Chills pediatrician, like
a week earlier, had noted the same inflammation, and he
thought could be due to a bubble bath reaction or
overly aggressive wiping. Yeah, I would agree with the pediatrician.
I'm not trying to just be a pediatrician speaking, but

(36:53):
that sounds reasonable. And certainly, if I'm looking at a
female with a rational genital area that by itself is
not any evidence that is sexual abuse, There's got to
be some other confirmatory things, or or maybe not confirmatory,
at least other suspicious things that would make me think
of sexual abuse, and a rash by itself isn't going

(37:15):
to do it.

Speaker 2 (37:16):
So two days after the murders, Saturday Crime scene reconstructionist
and blood spatter expert Robert Steitz started his investigation. He
noted a trail of colorless liquid running out of the garage.
In a small utility room, he found a bottle of
bleach with a mop and a bucket. He concluded that

(37:37):
someone had tried to clean up the scene. Stites also
gave an impromptu lecture on blood spatter and found what
he thought could be high velocity spatter on a shower curtain.

Speaker 3 (37:49):
Yeah. No, I have no idea what that would mean.
They came home, got into the garage and got shot.
I don't know how you find high velocity spatter on
a shower curtain.

Speaker 2 (38:00):
It was a shower curtain that was in the garage.
It was a room off of the utility room, so
it wasn't at the crime scene.

Speaker 3 (38:08):
It was inside the house.

Speaker 2 (38:09):
So that doesn't make any sense at all.

Speaker 3 (38:11):
No sense. But we'll hear more about mister Stit's.

Speaker 2 (38:15):
So he called Clemens, who was the detective, and arranged
to meet him later at the crime scene. Now, was
there any blood found on the mop or in the
bucket is another question I have.

Speaker 3 (38:28):
Oh, you're taking my thunder. Okay, Now it's going to
turn out that there was no evidence of blood being
on the mop or the bucket.

Speaker 2 (38:39):
So earlier David cam had gone to the hospital and
he gave samples of his head hair, pubic hair, blood,
and saliva. Then when he got back home, he got
into a fight with police, a physical fight. He wanted
to enter his house to pick out clothing for his
wife and children for their services, and got really angry

(39:00):
when he was told not only was he not going
to go in there, but also no clothing was going
to be brought out to him. So what the fuck
with that?

Speaker 3 (39:09):
It seemed to me that the policemen were just trying
to be pricks. Maybe he shouldn't go into the house
because he's still a question.

Speaker 2 (39:16):
Well, I don't think he should know.

Speaker 3 (39:18):
But you're telling me they couldn't, under his direction bring
some clothing out for his family to be buried in.

Speaker 2 (39:26):
Well, I think they were thinking he did this. Oh yeah,
that's the problem.

Speaker 3 (39:30):
I'm pretty decided. Yeah, but it just seems like they
could have accommodated him a little bit better.

Speaker 4 (39:38):
Well.

Speaker 2 (39:38):
That evening, Stites met Clemens at the crime scene and
went over to the police station to examine David's basketball
clothing that he'd been wearing that night. He found no
evidence of blood on the shorts, but there was some
transfer blood on the sneakers and what he interpreted as
high velocity blood spanner on the T shirt, which would

(39:59):
be highly incriminating.

Speaker 3 (40:01):
It certainly would, because high velocity spatter means that you've
been in fairly close proximity to the victim when the
bullet hits.

Speaker 2 (40:09):
Yes, So that would be very strong evidence against him.
Based on evidence they had, Clemens drew up a probable
cause affidavit for the arrest of David Camp. David was
brought into the police station Sunday evening, just three days
after the murders, for another interview, and this time he
was informed that he was the main suspect and he

(40:30):
was just really upset. He went pretty crazy.

Speaker 3 (40:33):
You remember those scenes.

Speaker 2 (40:35):
Yeah, we were able to watch those on a forty
eight hours I think it was, Yeah, And the police
were trying to get him to confess, but he did
continue to deny killing his family. I'd say, pretty strong
denials pretty much, but still when the interview was concluded,
David was arrested and he was charged with three counts

(40:55):
of first degree murder. For his family's deaths.

Speaker 3 (41:00):
To turn out that most everything on the affid David
for his arrest was false.

Speaker 2 (41:06):
Wow, that's interesting.

Speaker 3 (41:07):
Yeah, So David's family all thought he was innocent, and
at the beginning of all this, Kim's family was also
in his corner, but they eventually decided that David was guilty. Now,
David's uncle Sam Sam Lockhart felt there had been a
rush to judgment and that the affidavit had been drawn
up mostly to fit their theories that they had, and

(41:31):
that turns out to be true. Then in January of
two thousand and one, Rod Englert, who was Robert Stitz's boss,
arrived in Indiana and over the next couple of days,
four days, he went over the evidence and he told
prosecutor Faith that he was satisfied that David was the perpetrator.

(41:51):
So how long had it been since the murder September
twenty eighth.

Speaker 2 (41:56):
So and he was three months and he was held
in jail all this time yep, So he couldn't get
out on bail.

Speaker 3 (42:03):
That was a big sticky issue. No, he was not.
So the Lockhart family hired a local attorney named Mike
McDaniel and he was going to represent David, and pre
trial hearings over the next several months before the trial began,
it was very apparent that McDaniel and Prosecutor Faith didn't

(42:23):
like each other, not at all.

Speaker 2 (42:26):
Now there was a lot of tension between these two.
McDaniel accused Faith of withholding evidence. And there was also
this gray sweatshirt found at the crime scene that had
blood and hairs on it. Now, strangely, it also had
the word backbone written on the collar, like by hand
in sharpie, and David denied this was his, but the

(42:49):
police did spend quite a bit of time trying to
find out who owned that sweatshirt. Well, so they said, yeah,
and that would be argued later. So the sweatshirt will
be an important thing.

Speaker 3 (42:59):
The sweatshirt it turns the case. Yeah, it's very important.
By April of two thousand and one, Prosecutor Faith suggested
that David would kill his family so he could pursue
other women, and he wanted to have the testimony of
many of David's girlfriends, and the defense objected, but Judge Striegel,
who was going to hear the case, said he's going

(43:21):
to allow the testimony. So we're going to hear from
all these women that said they'd been having sex with David.

Speaker 2 (43:27):
Okay, so I guess the issue here is would he
need to kill his family to pursue other women because
he'd been doing it all along And we don't really
have a serious girlfriend that he would have wanted to
get rid of his family to be with, to marry
or anything, So it's not that strong. But of course
having these women testify is going to make him look

(43:48):
really shitty.

Speaker 3 (43:50):
And it worked. Yeah, His uncle Sam continued to fight
for him. And one thing was according to the timeline
that was proposed by the prosecutor, David would have had
only a minute and a half to two minutes to
get home, confront his wife, kill her and the children,
and dispose of the weapon because they've never found the weapon,

(44:11):
so that's a lot of work to do in two minutes,
it is, but it.

Speaker 2 (44:15):
Would be possible.

Speaker 3 (44:17):
It could be.

Speaker 2 (44:18):
Kim's family, after speaking to Rod Engler, came to believe
that David was guilty, so they turned on him, and
David's first wife, Tammy, and his daughter with her, Whitney,
the only child he has left, also sided with Kim's family,
so they're all against him.

Speaker 3 (44:35):
They're all against him except for the Lockharts.

Speaker 2 (44:39):
So, after several delays, David Kim's trial did begin in
January January fourteenth of two thousand and two. The jury
pool was selected from another county because there was just
so much media coverage, as you can imagine, Deputy Prosecutor
Susan Orth opened for the prosecution, and she covered all

(45:00):
the bases, including David's numerous sexual improprieties and the belief
that Jill had been sexually abused. Then she really had
a bombshell to drop, right. She said that there was
evidence that David made a phone call from his home
at seven nineteen pm, and that would completely undermine his
alibi that he'd been playing basketball from seven to nine

(45:24):
twenty two.

Speaker 3 (45:25):
Yeah, and if he says, I'm at the gym playing
ball and there's a phone call from his landline at
home at seven nineteen, well, okay, but this.

Speaker 2 (45:35):
I don't understand because there were six.

Speaker 3 (45:37):
Or eight guys, there was eleven guys.

Speaker 2 (45:39):
Eleven guys saying that he was there the whole time,
the whole time, so he had a very solid alibi.
And that's that's the strangest part of this whole thing
to me, How can you just ignore an alibi like that?

Speaker 3 (45:52):
It is to me too, But I think that people
just decided he was such a scumbag that he must
be guilty.

Speaker 2 (45:58):
Yeah, but why would eleven guys life for him if
that were the case? You got me, Well, Mike McDaniels opened, and,
while not addressing the phone call at all, did refute
everything else that the prosecutor had said. Oh yeah, so
Detective Sean Clemens is not really friends with David anymore.
He was the first witness to testify for the prosecution

(46:19):
in fact, and he came across well, he was a
good witness, very straightforward, and seemed to know what he
was talking about. Mike McDaniel's line of questioning was really
an attempt to discredit Clements, because first there was the
matter of a neighbor hearing what may have been gun shots.
An Clemens now said he didn't believe that there were

(46:39):
gunshots that were heard because of the evidence of that
seven to nineteen phone call.

Speaker 3 (46:45):
Yeah, the affet David said that some relative of David's
heard what she thought were gunshots three gunshots earlier. She
has since said, no, I never told him they were gunshots.
He just interpreted that way anyway, And the affidavit was
that somebody heard what she thought with gunshots, even though
she's gone back and said no, I didn't say that.

Speaker 2 (47:09):
Well, McDaniel asked Clemens about the colorless liquid that was
oozing out of the garage, and he said, this was
the breakdown of Kim's red blood cells and not the
result of a cleanup with bleach.

Speaker 3 (47:22):
Right, So what they're looking at this clear fluid or
fairly clear fluid, was just serum.

Speaker 2 (47:29):
But why would serum be separated from blood?

Speaker 3 (47:32):
Well, the cells breakdown.

Speaker 2 (47:35):
So we're not talking about a big puddle of clear liquid,
is what I'm picturing. No, we're not, okay, So we're
talking about something that was around the blood.

Speaker 3 (47:44):
Yeah, okay, kind of the edges I see. Clemens said
I don't know any of that.

Speaker 2 (47:50):
Huh. So he was kind of about to get David
at that point. Well, I mean, I'm not saying for
bad reasons, he probably believed he was guilty. He did,
but Robert's stites to fight in the first week of
the trial and gave a good discussion about blood spatter,
pretty thorough and it seemed to impress the jury, he.

Speaker 3 (48:10):
Spoke authoritatively, he was a good witness.

Speaker 2 (48:13):
McDaniel got him to admit his college degree was actually
in economics and he was working on his doctorate in
blood spatter analysis.

Speaker 3 (48:22):
Yeah, I'm not sure I said that correctly if you
get a doctorate in blood spatter analysis.

Speaker 2 (48:27):
But whatever, he was studying blood spatter.

Speaker 3 (48:30):
Yeah, he was getting a doctorate in something, but he.

Speaker 2 (48:33):
Had no degree that made him qualified to do this.

Speaker 3 (48:36):
No, he did not.

Speaker 2 (48:38):
Stits was unable to recall the names of people he'd
spoken to, and he had difficulty remembering what he'd even
told them at the time, so he didn't come across well.
McDaniel suggested to Stites that the blood on David's T shirt,
maybe that was transfer blood from when David was pulling
bred out of the car, but Steits said, no way, right, yeh,

(49:00):
that's blood spatter.

Speaker 3 (49:01):
There was a big to do about this, that there
was high velocity spatter and not transfer.

Speaker 2 (49:06):
So I'm wondering why the defense didn't have another expert
come in and give their opinion.

Speaker 3 (49:11):
They did, and what happened with that, Well, they believed
Stites more.

Speaker 2 (49:17):
Even though he didn't come across that great. That's yep. Huh. Well,
the next several witnesses were the guys David had played
basketball with that night.

Speaker 3 (49:27):
Yeah, they all said, you know, David was here the
whole time. The big problem, according to Faith, was they've
got this phone call from his home at seven nineteen,
so they know he was at home at seven nineteen.
And the guys that played basketball with him said, no,
he was playing ball with us at seven nineteen.

Speaker 2 (49:46):
And why couldn't have that call have been made by Kim.

Speaker 3 (49:50):
Because the caller had talked with David?

Speaker 2 (49:53):
Okay, and the caller said it was at seven nineteen.

Speaker 3 (49:57):
We're going to find out that it wasn't at seven nineteen.

Speaker 2 (50:00):
That's why I'm wondering. Did the caller think it was
at seven nineteen?

Speaker 3 (50:02):
The person who I'm not sure if they knew what
time exactly.

Speaker 2 (50:06):
It was, because if they knew it was earlier, you
think they would have said before he went to prison.

Speaker 3 (50:11):
Well, we'll find out.

Speaker 2 (50:13):
Well. The third week of the trial saw several women
take the stand, and all they really did was describe
their affairs with David. Nothing about the murders, nothing, nothing
about him wanting his family dead, nothing like that.

Speaker 3 (50:25):
No, we're just going to show him that he's a scumbag.

Speaker 2 (50:28):
So David and his family felt that with this testimony,
the jury started to dislike David, which they shouldn't be
basing their determination on that, but it certainly could influence people.

Speaker 3 (50:39):
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (50:40):
Following the women was Kim's friend Marcy, and she talked
about Kim's comment history is repeating itself, and her interpretation
of that was that she thought David was cheating again. Absolutely,
So as the prosecution wound down its case, there was
like a parade of expert witnesses, a lot of them.
Lynz Scamma Horn, the State of Indiana's DNA expert, testified

(51:04):
that the blood on David's T shirt was Jill's and
there was unknown DNA on that backbone sweatshirt and other
unidentified DNA on Kim and Brad's pants. Finally, she said
there was no blood on the mop or the bucket
at the camhouse, which made it unlikely that there'd been
an attempt to clean up the scene. Now, to me,

(51:26):
if someone had a mop and were cleaning it up,
that would be an obvious thing. So I don't even
understand how that came up.

Speaker 3 (51:32):
Well, it came up because stit's on his first pass
through the house, said, oh, there's evidence of cleanup here.

Speaker 2 (51:40):
But all you'd have to do is look at pictures
and see, No, that didn't happen. Well, and there would
be no time for him to do a cleanup, that's
the major thing.

Speaker 3 (51:48):
But there could have been some time that he wanted
to clean up, started to clean up, and that was
giving you the clear liquid at the edges. It turned
out not to be correct, but he didn't have enough
time to get it all cleaned up, so they stopped.

Speaker 2 (52:02):
Well, also, were they kind of insinuating that he'd done
it earlier.

Speaker 3 (52:06):
Yeah, they've changed the time of death.

Speaker 2 (52:08):
They kind of changed it just for convenience in some ways,
they changed it to fit their theory. Yeah, which is
really what you're not supposed to do in any kind
of science, is you don't change the evidence to fit
your theory. You change your theory to fit the evidence.
So that was a big mistake right there. It was.
Rod Engler testified and McDaniel did a good job of

(52:31):
discrediting him, including his endorsement of a psychic.

Speaker 3 (52:35):
Yeah, in one of the cases that Angler had worked on,
a psychic had kind of helped so he said she
was great spot on that, right, there would be enough
to disqualify him.

Speaker 2 (52:47):
Well, I mean not necessarily. Some people do believe in that.

Speaker 3 (52:50):
Yeah, but that's a fairy tale.

Speaker 2 (52:52):
Right. Well, after twenty six days of this, the prosecution rested.
McDaniel said the defense would going to call five to
ten witnesses, including David cam David's uncle and brother were
trying hard to solve the mystery of this seven nineteen
phone call because it didn't make sense to them.

Speaker 3 (53:12):
Well, yeah, they knew he'd been playing ball with them.
I don't see how I'm going to make a phone
call seven nineteen when I've been playing basketball with you
guys for twenty minutes.

Speaker 2 (53:20):
Yes, it was really important that they figured out what
was going on with that, right. It turned out that
the Verizon computer had failed to convert to daylight savings time,
so the call had actually been made at six', nineteen
not seven, nineteen which would make sense because he didn't
leave for basketball till almost. Seven.

Speaker 3 (53:40):
Right so that Fits david's, story but it doesn't fit
the polices or the prosecution. Story so Mister faith was
not very happy with.

Speaker 2 (53:50):
This there was some testimony From Sam. Lockhart about the basketball,
game and he said it wouldn't be possible For david
to sneak, out go, home order his wife and, kids
and then come back to the game with no one
noticing he was. Gone but the prosecutor basically called him a,
liar like he was covering For. David, sure he's his,
uncle he's going to lie for, Him but there's eleven. Guys.

Speaker 3 (54:13):
Yeah then there was a blood spatter expert for the
defense As Terry, labor and he contradicted pretty much everything
that Rod engler had. Said more, specifically he said that
the blood On DAVID'S t shirt was transfer blood and
not high velocity. Spatter so you, know again you're looking
at the battles of expert.

Speaker 2 (54:35):
Witnesses, sure AND U jerry didn't believe. Him, Right So
david did testify in his own, defense which is. Unusual he,
did and prosecutor Of faith really went to town on,
him especially with the extra marital. Stuff, well, sure you
just wanted to get rid of your family so you
could have sex with all these, women was basically the

(54:57):
story he.

Speaker 3 (54:58):
Told, yeah and if you can get people believe in
that he's a, shit then it's an easier step to
figure that he murdered his.

Speaker 2 (55:06):
Family, yeah well there were really no surprises though in
the closing. Arguments. Nope On march, fifteenth two thousand and,
two the jury began to, deliberate and of course both
attorneys said that they were confident that they were winning the,
case but the consensus in the news media was that
there was actually a possibility of a. Mistrial one newsperson

(55:29):
who Thought david would be found guilty felt that the
verdict would then be overturned because that extramarital stuff really
had no place.

Speaker 3 (55:37):
In the, trial so that one could foresee what was
going to.

Speaker 2 (55:40):
Happen, yeah that's. Wise so after three.

Speaker 3 (55:44):
Days of, deliberation the jury foreman, said we're. Deadlocked we
have at ten to to vote in favor of guilty,
verdict so we're. Done but the, judge and this is
in accordance With indiana legal, practice said go back and
continue to. Deliberate so they. Did they had. Dinner after,
dinner one of the two changed their verdict to, guilty

(56:07):
and then after another three or so, hours the final
holdout folded and also voted.

Speaker 2 (56:13):
Guilty SO i have a problem with. That you know
what it?

Speaker 3 (56:16):
Is, yeah coercion, yeah peer.

Speaker 2 (56:19):
Pressure, really if you've got everybody else in the jury
trying to get you to go, along it really takes
a strong person to stand up to, that especially for
hours and. Hours so that's just not. COOL i don't
think that's a good idea to put that kind of.

Speaker 3 (56:34):
Pressure so he's found, guilty which outraged everybody on his
side of the. Family mike McDaniel, Said i'm going to.
Appeal he's looking forward to retrying the. Case Prosecutor faith
thanked the jury for their, decision And cam was sentenced
to the maximum amount one hundred and ninety five years

(56:54):
sixty five years per, person which means he would be
eligible for parole when he was a hundred forty three years.

Speaker 2 (57:01):
Old that's.

Speaker 3 (57:02):
Heavy, yeah he ain't never getting out.

Speaker 2 (57:04):
Well the attorney McDaniel did file an appeal In, may
and he listed thirteen reasons for a. Retrial this included
this decision to allow his ex lover's testimonies and also
this alleged sexual abuse of his. Daughter it also turned
out that three of the juror's spouses had been allowed

(57:25):
to attend parts of the trial and stay at the
hotel that the jury had been sequestered In so that's really.

Speaker 3 (57:31):
Bad it's not.

Speaker 2 (57:33):
Good so there's a lot of problems here THAT i can.

Speaker 3 (57:35):
See.

Speaker 2 (57:35):
Yep McDaniel also asked the judge to recuse himself from the.
Appeal while the appeal process was taking, place McDaniel failed
to show up for a hearing and then shortly after
resigned from the. Case that Was david's defense.

Speaker 3 (57:52):
Attorney, YEAH i mean they were having problems with. Him
they thought McDaniel didn't represent him as well as he should.

Speaker 2 (57:58):
HAVE i would agree as well as.

Speaker 3 (58:00):
They thought he should. Have, sure and then he didn't
show up for this hearing and he didn't have a
reason for. IT i, mean we know he's in poor.
Health they had to stop the trial a couple times
at least because he was in ill. Health he was
this guy who was a heavy. Smoker probably a heart
attack way he need to.

Speaker 2 (58:19):
Happen but, anyway so it's a good thing he. Resigned
it was a.

Speaker 3 (58:24):
Help now by Late, july the judge of the, Case,
striegel denied the emotion for appeal and this cleared it
up so it could go to The Indiana court Of.
Appeal Uncle sam went out and he hired two more
high profile, lawyers more powerful, lawyers, Whatever Catherine layel And Stacy.

Speaker 2 (58:43):
Uliana So Uncle sam really believes in his innocence and
he's lucky he had.

Speaker 3 (58:50):
Him Uncle sam was a good guy to have in your.
Corner he believed in himy foot all the way for.

Speaker 2 (58:56):
Him so On september twenty seventh of two thousand and,
Two kim's, Parents frank And, janice filed a wrongful death
suit Against David. Camp one month, Later david filed a
suit Against John Slash Jane doe Aka, backbone who he
claimed was the real killer of his.

Speaker 3 (59:15):
Family, yeah this is so that if The wren's suit is,
successful then It's backbone who's responsible for.

Speaker 2 (59:23):
Paying but we don't even know who that, is not yet.

Speaker 3 (59:28):
Now In august, tenth two thousand and, four The Indiana
court Of appeal overturned his, sentence saying that the testimony
of his ex lover should not have been. Allowed well we.

Speaker 2 (59:38):
Knew, that, Yeah so the whole conviction was. Overturned.

Speaker 3 (59:41):
Yeah then a month, later The Indiana Attorney general s
The Supreme court Of indiana to reinstated murder. Convictions On november,
fifth The Indiana Supreme court refused to reinstate the, convictions
And david's, Lawyer Catherine, lael asked that he'd be released on.
Bail this was, denied so they started getting ready for

(01:00:02):
a new, trial and they also decided they needed to
change the venue because everybody in this area knew about.

Speaker 2 (01:00:10):
IT i think the overall feeling was against, him.

Speaker 3 (01:00:13):
Oh, Absolutely so they figured the new trial was going
to start in the summer of two thousand and, five
and then late In january of two thousand and, Five
david cam was released on. Bond not for, long, however
but we'll get into that.

Speaker 2 (01:00:30):
Well also in early two thousand and, five the defense
asked that THE dna from the backbone sweatshirt be run THROUGH. Cotis,
again there WAS dna from two unknown people on this.
SWEATSHIRT a match was found for the MALE, dna even
though the prosecutor said that the sample had been tested
and that there had been no matches. Found so the

(01:00:54):
prosecutor might have been lying.

Speaker 3 (01:00:55):
There. Well the charitable explanation would be that state police
had told the prosecutor that there was no match and he, said, okay.
Fine the less charitabloo view is that he knew there
was a, match and he decided to bury that.

Speaker 2 (01:01:13):
Information, well, yeah if it had even been, tested we don't,
know is What i'm. Thinking, well not only did they
lie about the, match it had been. Tested it had been,
tested and they had A dna profile and they wouldn't
have checked. It, Yeah, well THE dna belonged to, somebody.
Right it Was Charles, bonnett who was out on parole

(01:01:34):
at the time that the murders had been. Committed he
had been found guilty before of attacks on women.

Speaker 3 (01:01:40):
And they were. Brutal the thing he'd been in jail
for was three women college aged women that he had
kind of held captive in their apartment and pointed guns
at him and told him he's going to shoot. Him
it's not a nice.

Speaker 4 (01:01:54):
Guy.

Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
No he also had this peculiar kind of foot fetish,
thing which would be an interesting part of the case
Because Kim cam had bruises on both of her feet
and her shoes were lined up neatly on the roof
of her. Car, so of Course bonet was interviewed and
took a, polygraph which he. Failed he said he was

(01:02:15):
not involved in the crime and that he'd actually given
that sweatshirt away to The Salvation.

Speaker 3 (01:02:20):
Army, yeah so he got, released but not long afterwards
got arrested because they identified a palm print that had
been heretofore. Unidentified they identified it as his And bonet was.

Speaker 2 (01:02:35):
Rearrested, yeah and that pomp print was found On kim's car,
yep and in a location where you might kind of
brace yourself if you were leaning in to shoot the.

Speaker 3 (01:02:45):
Children, yeah the kids were in the back seat of the,
car and you can very easily, see for whatever reason
the guy was shooting that he would lean into the
car to shoot the kids and brace himself with his.

Speaker 2 (01:02:59):
Hand, Also boney changed his story several times in his police.
Interviews the one he ended up with was that he
had Met David cam just by, chance And david asked
him to get him an untraceable. Gun so it actually
said that he was out at a basketball, court came
Across David, cam chatted with, him and then he was

(01:03:20):
asked by him to get him a.

Speaker 3 (01:03:21):
Gun. YEAH i, mean he's changed his story several, times
and this story just defies belief to. Me he, Says, oh,
Yeah i'm just out of prison And i'm wandering. Around
there's this guy's playing a basketball game AND i started
playing ball with.

Speaker 2 (01:03:36):
Him, well that's, possible but why would He, okay it's.
Possible why would he get an untraceable gun for someone
if he's out on. Parole wouldn't he be worried he's
getting to get into trouble having some stranger approach him like.

Speaker 3 (01:03:48):
That there's so many things wrong with this. Story.

Speaker 2 (01:03:52):
Okay so according To, bonnet he said he Met david
at his house The knight of the murders just to
give him the. Gun and what he did was he
Gave david the gun wrapped in the grey. Sweatshirt Then
kim and the kids arrived, home and he said That
david shot his. Family then yelled At, bonet you did
this and named the gun at him like he was

(01:04:13):
going to set him up for. IT i was going
to kill, him, right but set him up for killing
the family as. Well, Right BUT i guess the gun supposedly.

Speaker 3 (01:04:22):
Jammed either jammed here or he is out of ammunition or.
Whatever So bonet says That i'm going after him makes
no sense. Whatsoever and according To, Bonnet david ran towards
the back of the. Garage bonet's after. Him david ran
up the stairs into the, house and Then bonet tripped

(01:04:43):
On kim's, shoes and he says he stopped to pick them,
up cleaned them, off and arranged him on the top
of the, vehicle and he says he then leaned into
the car to check on the, kids and that's how
his plumb print came to be on the.

Speaker 2 (01:04:59):
Car it's a lot to ask someone to believe.

Speaker 3 (01:05:02):
It it's just totally, unbelievable it.

Speaker 2 (01:05:05):
Is but Then david And Charles bonet were charged as
co conspirators in the km family. Deaths bonet went on trial,
first and he was found guilty and sentenced to two
hundred and twenty five years in. Prison david's trial started
In january of two thousand and. Six this, time the

(01:05:26):
motive that the prosecution put forth was That david had
been sexually abusing his Daughter, jill and he killed his
wife and children to cover the abuse. Up SO i
guess they're saying That kim found out about this abuse
and he had to kill them all to stop from
getting into.

Speaker 3 (01:05:42):
Trouble, yeah think about. That how's that.

Speaker 4 (01:05:44):
Sound, well it's. Possible you keep saying it's, possible, Right
it's not. Probable it's totally. Improbable, yes But david was
found guilty of murdering his. Family he was found guilty
a second time and again sentenced to life in prison
with no.

Speaker 2 (01:06:00):
Parole, well, Nitpicking, well last time he could get, parole
but he'd be one hundred and forty.

Speaker 3 (01:06:06):
Last time was one hundred sixty five years or. Whatever
and now it's.

Speaker 2 (01:06:11):
Life well either, way it was. Life.

Speaker 3 (01:06:13):
Yeah, now his attorneys appealed to conviction, again claiming that
the molestation allegations were unfounded and just like the girlfriend, testimony,
Prejudicial and this time it went to The Indiana Supreme,
court who agreed and the conviction was. Overturned so this,

(01:06:34):
guy in a, sense is living a charmed. Life he's
gotten two convictions for murder. Overturned, yes but he was
spending some time in. Prison he's been in. Prison he's
been in solitary a lot of the. Time but he's
been in.

Speaker 2 (01:06:47):
Prison so his family's been shot to death and he's in.
PRISON i really can't call it a charmed, Life. Dick
he's gotten lucky with these, appeals he has, right but
the fact that he was even found guilty in the
first place would make his life not very. Charmed so,
undeterred the prosecution was pressing ahead for a third, trial
and this one began In october of twenty. Thirteen this

(01:07:11):
time the motive was the life insurance policies purchased By
kim and totaling over six hundred thousand. Dollars Charles bonnet
actually testified Against david and he told the story of
delivering the gun To david at his, home Seeing david
shoot the family and turn the gun on. Him the

(01:07:31):
NEW dna evidence was, introduced and this Was BONET'S dna
which was found on Both kim And. Jill so this
refuted his claim that he was just a. Bystander then
the blood spatter analysis was heavily.

Speaker 3 (01:07:45):
Criticized, yeah maybe more than, heavily but the defense experts
said that the blood spatter analysis was basically. Guesswork Robert,
steitz whose work played such a huge role in his first,
trial testified for the, defense and this time he had
to admit that he had purged himself in the previous

(01:08:05):
trials because he was not a blood spatter analysis expert as,
claimed nor was he in the process of obtaining a.

Speaker 2 (01:08:13):
PhD, yeah so what was his motive there for doing?
That to get.

Speaker 3 (01:08:18):
Paid, yeah he wanted to be a big.

Speaker 2 (01:08:20):
Shot now that's a terrible way to try and make.
Money no. Shit but other findings By, stites like he
claimed there'd been a cleanup of the, scene were also
shown to be, false So stites claimed That Prosecutor faith
was actually complicit too in.

Speaker 3 (01:08:35):
This, YEAH i told You faith wasn't going to come
out looking so. Good stit said he had been sent
To indiana by his, Boss Rod, englert just to photograph
and take, notes and then somehow who knows, how these
notes ended up being in the arrest, affidavit and that's
Where states had been referred to as a crime scene,
reconstructionist which he obviously.

Speaker 2 (01:08:57):
Wasn't, no but it sounded, good so he decided to
go with. It.

Speaker 3 (01:09:01):
YEAH i mean, again if you want to be, charitable
the Prosecutor faith was just kind of ignorant of. Things
and if you're less, charitable you're saying that he knew
he was wrong and he wanted to win the.

Speaker 2 (01:09:14):
Case, well you, KNOW i think maybe he didn't start
out knowing he was, wrong but people like to stick
to their guns once they have their. Theory i'll give you.

Speaker 3 (01:09:22):
That i'd also say though the faith was up for
reelection because it's an elected.

Speaker 2 (01:09:27):
Post, oh that could be a motive, too and a.

Speaker 3 (01:09:29):
Conviction would help him be. Reelected here's an.

Speaker 2 (01:09:32):
Idea convict the correct, person the person who actually did,
it and that would make you look even better than
convicting the wrong.

Speaker 3 (01:09:39):
Person that, would wouldn't.

Speaker 2 (01:09:40):
It, yeah but this time the verdict was. Different so,
yeah it was So david was found not. Guilty we've
got three, trials two, convictions two successful, appeals and one.
Acquittal so quite a. Story and the cost of this
whole thing is calculated to be about four point five million.

(01:10:02):
Dollars it's.

Speaker 3 (01:10:04):
AMAZING i, Mean stites And angler cleared almost two hundred
thousand dollars for their.

Speaker 2 (01:10:10):
Work did they have to return? It or there must
be some lawsuits going on we can talk.

Speaker 3 (01:10:14):
About, YEAH i just don't have good information on, him but,
yeah there's a ton of.

Speaker 2 (01:10:19):
Lawsuits, well the reaction to the verdict was really. Mixed
most people from the area where there was all the
media coverage felt like he was, guilty and nationally the, Verdict.

Speaker 3 (01:10:30):
Yeah the verdict would appeal to people who feel he
was wrongfully, convicted so they liked.

Speaker 2 (01:10:35):
That so, nationally people did feel he was wrongfully.

Speaker 3 (01:10:38):
Convicted, yeah the consensus in the area was that he
was guilty because of all the saturated media. Coverage well,
yeah and.

Speaker 2 (01:10:46):
At first, notice like if you just read a brief
article about it to start, OUT i thought he was guilty.
Too but when you go through the whole facts of the,
case it's not a very good case against, him especially
Once bonnet came into the.

Speaker 3 (01:11:01):
Picture, yeah you're, Right and the fact that it took
the second trial to Get BONET'S dna and stuff into,
evidence there is just a problem with.

Speaker 2 (01:11:10):
That that's like criminal. Incompetence it.

Speaker 1 (01:11:13):
Is.

Speaker 2 (01:11:13):
Well many legal experts have been critical of the handling
of this case by the. Prosecution law Professor Sean boyne
has used The camp trials to demonstrate some problems overall
in our judicial, system and he feels the judges in
these trials let the prosecutors present specious claims of motive

(01:11:34):
designed to paint the defendant with a broad stroke of.

Speaker 3 (01:11:37):
Guilt, right that's a quotation From Professor. Boyne.

Speaker 2 (01:11:41):
Right so, basically they felt that the judges had let
the prosecutors give bogus evidence and prejudice.

Speaker 3 (01:11:48):
Evidence you're exactly right. Now the other thing was that
the sweatshirt that had the unknown at least at the
TIME dna was never thoroughly, investigated and then Once bonnet was,
named there wasn't any real follow up of his past.
History some of that is That bonnet kept changing his,
story and it appears that at least some of his

(01:12:10):
changes were made after the details had been suggested by the.
Police So i'm going to stop short of saying he was,
coerced but at least two have. Suggested he just.

Speaker 2 (01:12:21):
Seems like a terrible human. Being, yes ALTHOUGH i still
can't understand why he killed the whole. Family i'm not sure.
Either it's just really. Weird that WASN'T i, mean the
whole foot thing was his mo but other than, that pretty.
Strange it just makes you think Maybe kim was just
really fighting him to protect her kids or.

Speaker 3 (01:12:39):
Something and the other thing would be because these were
not tiny. Kids they were old enough to give evidence
or give, Testimony so he might have Killed kim and
played with her feet and taken her shoes, off and
then heard kids in the, car and he looked in
and saw that these were older kids and he had
to kill.

Speaker 2 (01:12:57):
Him they were that much.

Speaker 3 (01:12:59):
OLDER i, guess, well they're old enough to be able
to say what had.

Speaker 2 (01:13:02):
Happened, yeah that's.

Speaker 3 (01:13:04):
True it just looked like police concluded That david was
guilty pretty early in the, investigation and this made them
either ignore or downplay the significance Of bonet's. Evidence.

Speaker 2 (01:13:18):
Yeah it's kind of that common problem of tunnel, vision
which police really try to, avoid, hopefully you.

Speaker 3 (01:13:25):
Know one Of davidkham's defense attorneys said that the police
might have Coerced bonet's testimony by playing the race, card
telling him, that you, know black guy In indiana are
going to, die.

Speaker 2 (01:13:37):
Oh unless he turns in somebody.

Speaker 3 (01:13:38):
Else, yeah so if you want to avoid the death,
penalty testify Against. Davidkam.

Speaker 2 (01:13:44):
Sure but if they had, him why wouldn't they just
think it was? Him why Get david involved at?

Speaker 3 (01:13:49):
All because they were convinced he was? Involved?

Speaker 2 (01:13:51):
Right, Yeah BUT i, MEAN i guess the main thing
here is he was playing basketball and eleven people said
he was, There so that to me is a pretty
solid alibi unless you have some reason why these people
are not. TRUSTWORTHY i don't think you can go forward
with him as a. SUSPECT i don't think.

Speaker 3 (01:14:10):
So, either but they were pretty single minded In David cam's,
guilt so forget the other.

Speaker 2 (01:14:16):
Evidence, yeah so that's always a. Problem.

Speaker 3 (01:14:19):
Yeah and then Besides steitz's testimony where he had to
recant what he had testified to, earlier there's other allegations
of witness. Tampering so for, Example Lim, scammelhorn who is
A dna analyst for the, state said the Prosecutor faith
threatened her when she refused to say That CAM'S dna
was On bonet's. Sweatshirt and Then John, singleton who was

(01:14:43):
a fingerprint, analysis claims That faith wanted him to kind
of shade the truth about the palm print On kim's.

Speaker 2 (01:14:49):
Car this is all scary stuff because if you find
yourself in a situation and you have all these people
who want to convict you and are willing to lie
or hide, things you're in deep sh no. Kidding if
you don't have someone on your side like he had,
Family if he was this poor guy with no one
looking out for, him he would certainly be in prison for.
Life he'd be.

Speaker 3 (01:15:09):
Done.

Speaker 2 (01:15:10):
Yeah so what about these, Lawsuits you said you don't
know that much about, them but we do know That
kim's parents have filed six civil suits Against David cam
so they still think he's guilty at this.

Speaker 3 (01:15:22):
Point, yeah it kind.

Speaker 2 (01:15:23):
Of blows my mind if you really look at the,
facts it's hard to believe that it.

Speaker 3 (01:15:28):
Is but they're. Positive and actually his ex wife and his, Daughter,
whitney they're convinced.

Speaker 2 (01:15:34):
Still now that's sad because his only child he has.
Left he can't have a relationship with a relationship with.
Her that's really.

Speaker 3 (01:15:41):
Sad now one of The wren's suits for wrongful death
has been withdrawn as far AS i can, tell the
rest is still. Ongoing david cam filed suit Against Floyd
county in the state Of.

Speaker 2 (01:15:53):
Indiana, YES i could see that he would win that
or at least settle.

Speaker 3 (01:15:57):
Right the county settled with him for four hundred fifty
thousand dollars this suit against the state twenty. Eighteen the
suit was, dismissed but In september of twenty, nineteen The
United States court Of appeals partially reversed the ruling and
this allowed the claim Against stite's Anglic faith And clemens to.

(01:16:17):
Proceed And Rod englert has filed a suit against several
of the defense witnesses for libel because they said bead
things about.

Speaker 2 (01:16:25):
Him, well as long as it was, LEGITIMATE i don't
think he has a. CHANCE i could.

Speaker 3 (01:16:30):
Not these are fairly old, suits BUT i can't find
the evidence or of the outcome of.

Speaker 2 (01:16:35):
Them it was only twenty. Thirteen he was, exonerated.

Speaker 3 (01:16:37):
Right if we got any listeners who have other, Information
i'd love to.

Speaker 2 (01:16:41):
Hear, well the thing is that four hundred and fifty
thousand sounds like a bunch of money up, front but
he had to pay for attorneys he was in. Prison oh,
YEAH i mean that's not Really, yeah, really it kind of.
Is and you, know of, course worst of, all his family.
Dead and even if he was a, Jerk i'm sure

(01:17:03):
that broke his. HEART i think he probably really loved
his kids and probably loved her even though he wasn't
faithful to. HER i, mean in Interviews i've seen, afterwards
he really has expressed some regret in the kind of
husband that he.

Speaker 3 (01:17:17):
Was, yeah it would be interesting maybe sometime to do
a story like. This what appears to be a happily
married guy who has serial affairs with. Women does that
make him less happy in his marriage or? WHAT i?

Speaker 2 (01:17:31):
Think so it's going to make her, unhappy even if
she doesn't, know because his attention is not in the right.
Place there are some men that are like that early
in the, marriage and you know when they get older
they kind of outgrow. IT i think women, too not just.

Speaker 3 (01:17:43):
Men, YEAH i could see.

Speaker 2 (01:17:45):
That, yeah SO i think he did have some regret for.
It doesn't make it, okay but it really doesn't mean.
That the loss of his family is. INSIGNIFICANT i think.
So plus he's lost his reputation in many. Ways i'm.

Speaker 3 (01:17:59):
Sure, yeah i'd have to move away from.

Speaker 2 (01:18:02):
There, WELL i mean he's got all that family there,
though and he works for the, family so that's the
one thing that really saved.

Speaker 3 (01:18:10):
Him. Though yeah it. Is BUT i don't know THAT
i could live in an area where every TIME i
go out shopping or, whatever is people looking at me and.
Whispering that's the murderer who got away with.

Speaker 2 (01:18:22):
It oh, yeah it's got to be. Rough, yeah really.
Sad so the sources for this case are a book
written By John glatt Titled One Deadly. Night there is
a DATELINE nbc Titled mystery On Lockhart, road and a
forty eight Hours murder On Lockhart. Road AND i thought

(01:18:42):
both of those were very entertaining a little bit of
a preference for forty eight. HOURS i thought they did
a really good, job and that was a more current,
one so it gave us more up to date, INFORMATION i.

Speaker 3 (01:18:53):
Think.

Speaker 2 (01:18:54):
Right and as far as the book that ended before
he was, exonerated it with the.

Speaker 3 (01:19:01):
First trial being, completed and then there's a foot and
over ep a lot that said that there was going
to be a second, trial but they didn't get into
the second.

Speaker 2 (01:19:10):
Trial but Mister glatt seemed to think That David cam
was definitely. Guilty, well my.

Speaker 3 (01:19:17):
Take on reading the book was that the author of
the book felt Like cam was.

Speaker 2 (01:19:22):
Guilty but you, know that also might be because all
the evidence wasn't out at that. Point it wasn't, Right
so that's, understandable all, Right, Dicky, well thanks for having
another conversation with me about. MURDER i really enjoyed.

Speaker 3 (01:19:35):
It, Yes, sweeten nothing's in your.

Speaker 2 (01:19:39):
Ear it's one of our favorite. Pastimes, yeah let me
tell you about.

Speaker 3 (01:19:42):
Murder so we'll be.

Speaker 2 (01:19:43):
Back again soon with our regular episode Of True Crime,
brewery and of course you members will get it ad,
free you, bet all. Right we'll see you next time
at The quiet.

Speaker 3 (01:19:52):
Act bye, Guys bye.

Speaker 4 (01:19:54):
Bye contents, confect confect don't contact perfect the contents confect
doment don't look a contact contector of the contector

Speaker 3 (01:20:13):
Concert con contact comport the content perfect perfect confect contact
content conspector

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