Sales as Service: Unlearning Old Models of Selling, Conflict & Negotiation

When most people think of sales, they picture pressure, quotas, and pushy tactics. But sales isn’t just about business, it’s about how we connect, serve, negotiate, and navigate conflict in every part of our lives.

In this episode, Kathy Baldwin speaks with Kirstin Carey about redefining sales as service. Together, they blend the principles of Unlearn the Crap with a human-centered approach to sales focusing on integrity, connection, and building businesses that last.

Kathy draws from her own corporate background in sales and operations, where she believed her role in management was to serve her team so they could show up as their best. That perspective shapes this conversation on how sales can become less about transactions and more about transformation.

Whether you’re building a business, negotiating in your daily life, or simply learning how to better connect with others, this episode will shift the way you think about sales forever.

✨ More with Kathy → https://kathybaldwin.me
📚 Books: Unlearn the Crap & Level UP, How I Unlearned MY Crap, The Unlearned Life

Connect with Kirtin Carey at EvolveMinded.com 

What You’ll Learn in This Episode:

• Why sales is ultimately about service and connection

• How Kathy’s corporate background shaped her belief in servant leadership

• The outdated sales models we need to unlearn

• How sales principles apply to conflict, negotiation, and daily life

• What human-centered sales looks like in action

• How to build a business on integrity, relationships, and trust

Memorable Quotes

• “Sales isn’t about closing—it’s about serving.” – Kirsten Carey

• “My role as a manager was never to boss people around. It was to serve the sales team so they could be their best.” – Kathy Baldwin

• “Human-centered sales is about integrity, service, and connection.” – Kirsten Carey

• “Sales isn’t a department. It’s part of how we live, connect, and negotiate every day.” – Kathy Baldwin

Episode Transcript

(00:03):
Welcome back to the Unlearn the Crap and Level
up podcast. I'm Kathy Baldwin and every
week I get to sit down with amazing people to challenge the
old ways of thinking. And today's conversation is one I
was truly excited about. When most people hear

(00:23):
the word sales, they think of pressure and quotas and pushy
tactics. But here's the truth. Sales isn't just about
business transactions. It's about how we connect,
how we serve, how we negotiate, and how we navigate
conflict in every area of our lives.

(00:43):
In my corporate career, I worked in sales and operations.
And when I moved into management, I believed my
role was to serve the sales team so. So that they could be the best
versions of themselves. That perspective that sales
is service was very different from the traditional

(01:04):
models of selling. And that's why I was so excited to
have this conversation with Kirsten Carey. Together we blended the
principles of Unlearn the Crap with a human centered approach to
sales. An approach built on integrity. So service
and connection. This conversation is
more than just closing deals. It's about building businesses

(01:28):
that last, creating relationships that matter, and navigating
the inevitable conflicts and negotiations of life
with clarity and confidence.
So even if you don't see yourself as in sales,
I promise you this episode has something for
you. Let's dive in. Welcome to Unlearn

(01:52):
the Crap TV with your host, Kathy Baldwin. Unlearn the Crap TV
is more than just a show. It's a movement towards breaking
free from the disempowering structures designed to benefit
the few at the expense of the many. It's about education,
healing and unlearning the detrimental beliefs that have been

(02:12):
ingrained in society for generations. So now please welcome
the host of Unlearn the Crap tv, Kathy Baldwin.
Welcome to another episode of Unlearn the Crap and level
up. Your soul is calling. I'm your host, Kathy Baldwin.

(02:33):
At Unlearn the Crap, we focus in
on the conditioned responses and automatic programming.
We focus in on the beliefs and the thoughts and the and
the energy, but also the ramifications that comes
into the physical manifestation. How those
thoughts and feelings and emotions, how our

(02:56):
neural programming or epigenetics all comes
out into our physical well being, changing our gut,
microbiome, inflammation and root cause of disease.
Everything we say and do matters
and the crap that we need to get rid of is that which is

(03:18):
disempowering to us. We all have it.
Welcome to this conversation. Kirsten, I am
so excited to have you here. I'm glad to
be here. You. You and I are on the same page on so many things.
I can't wait to go deeper with you on some of it. Me too.

(03:39):
So let's begin with what crap
did you need to unlearn so that you could level up?
Oh, how many ways can we get
into this crap? The biggest I crap I think that I
needed to unlearn was the idea of what power is
and what being strong is. I grew up in a household, it was very male

(04:03):
dominated energy as far as my, with the way my father grew up. And he
wanted my sister and me to not succumb to a lot of these
stereotypical girls being treated like girls kind of energy. So he
kind of raised us like boys in the, you know, 70s, 80s, 90s.
And the idea that you don't get to cry or you don't get to
connect your emotions and you should be really good at compartmentalizing how you feel

(04:26):
was a big part of my growing up. Like, you know,
I'll give you something to cry about kind of energy. There's no
reason to cry or show your cards. And so
my sister and I really learned early on that crying emotional
people were, were bad, that you should
be able to suck it up, walk it off and keep going. So I did

(04:48):
everything I could to get my father's attention by proving to him, look how good
I am at sucking it up, walking it off. Look how good I am at
not being emotional. Look how good I am at basically not being a girl.
You know, that stereotypical girl. And I even had
a coach for softball when I was 8 years old who used to tell us
we were throwing like girls. And I remember going up to the coach and

(05:09):
saying to him, but I am a girl. Like in all the
innocence a 7, 8 year old can say. And he was so frustrated.
He was like, well, I just mean you're not throwing right? And I'm like,
so that means we're bad because we're girls. And it was just this logic that
I was still trying to process that this adult must not understand how it is
right. And that really resonated with me too. So I was really

(05:31):
heavy into sports. I was a gymnast, I was a softball player. I was really
just one of those people who learned that strength was pushing through
to the point where your body had to give you more dramatic
response than what the little whisper should have been to learning
how to listen to yourself. So I built businesses that

(05:52):
way really, really early on. I was building businesses out of my Dorm room at
18, 19, 20 years old, and then was picking up really big clients.
So that level of success was hitting me. However, it was
also hurting me because I didn't know when to take a break. I didn't know
when to say no. I didn't know when to dial it back. I didn't know
how to listen to self. And in my 30s, I was diagnosed with autoimmune conditions,

(06:15):
so celiac disease and Hashimoto's. For those of you who are interested,
if you have them, welcome to the team. And I didn't
get any real answers outside of suck it up more,
take this medication and keep pushing.
And so I went through a whole journey at that point, having to learn
how to unlearn and how to learn how to let go of the things that

(06:38):
didn't serve me for long term. Health, wealth and
success and happiness. Oh, we have a lot
of unpacking in that whole unlearning that you did.
Before we go too far into this conversation though,
could you please tell the audience who you

(06:59):
are and how you serve the world now that you've unlearned your craft and
you're leveling up? What a beautiful question. So my name is Kirsten Carey.
I help serve high performers to not
burn out through a more effective sales process that's more
aligned with who they really are and who they really want to attract. So no

(07:20):
more bro y pushy, shove it down their throat, trick them into saying yes
type of energy. It's how do you get aligned with yourself first and then
you align and attract the right clients and get them to the right answer
for them right now. So how do you serve people at that highest level?
Okay, so we are going to be talking

(07:42):
about every aspect as well as
business and how we can create
the best life we possibly can by listening to
the whispers. Yes. Yes.
Because if your body has to push, yeah, if your body has to

(08:05):
push past the whispers, it'll go to something a little stronger and it'll go to
something even stronger and it'll start screaming at you and eventually at some point,
it'll pick up. A 2x4. And in my case, a 2x4 was autoimmune.
And in the interim of running my own businesses and picking up like
building businesses in marketing and sales for many, many years. Once I
got diagnosed with autoimmune and I couldn't find solutions that made sense to

(08:27):
me because they were just manage the disease, manage the symptoms,
not how do you reverse from them. I went into natural
medicine solutions and still didn't get full answers.
So as every entrepreneurial spirit will Do. I went
off and tried to find my own answers and I did. And I was able
to reverse both autoimmune conditions. The symptoms are gone. It doesn't show up on any

(08:50):
labs anymore. You know, traditional doctor will tell you it's because I'm in remission
and more natural thought process doctor will tell you I've reversed it.
So we can split hairs all day if you want to, but it doesn't show
up in anything for me anymore. But in that interim,
in that 15 year span, I developed a program,
became a natural health practitioner myself because I

(09:13):
don't do anything lightly. And I opened up a series of restaurants and wellness centers
on helping people reverse from autoimmune conditions, finding root cause and
healing in another way. So I did a lot of work
around the psychology behind illness, the trauma
behind illness. Epigenetics was what I used to teach
in functional medicine certification programs. So I love that

(09:36):
you brought up epigenetics. There's a whole chapter in my book on it.
But after doing that for 15 years and building a multi, well, seven figure company
out of it, there came another shift for me where I said, I've done what
I can do. I've taught a lot of other practitioners and now it's my time
to go back to the business owners because that's who was mostly coming to us
for healing. We're business owners and entrepreneurs and high

(09:58):
performers who needed to hear. How do you get
out of the two by four? How do you start listening to the whispers now?
So that's why I stepped fully back into even though I was still doing it
as a side hustle. You got to love a side hustle when you have a
seven, seven figure business side hustle. I'm still
working with business owners on their businesses, but that I used to get

(10:20):
into so much of the healing and the health part to get to the wealth,
right? So now I'm like, okay,
pushing past the I'm a practitioner as the forefront.
That's the background of what I do now. And the forefront is how do we
help you build scale a business in a way that you feel
so aligned that clients are just coming to you and you feel

(10:43):
so good about the sales process that it's not, it's not a thing anymore.
It's just part of who you are. As somebody
who identifies with everything you
said. First of all, I was
the poster child for the 2x4

(11:04):
I too long until that
2x4 came and took me down and had full blown
mental health, physical health, autoimmune wore
my body down. And so for us
to be really good at building our business and

(11:26):
connect to our clients, it has
to start with connecting to ourselves.
Yes, let's start, let's start right there. Because we
can focus in on the outside, we can focus in on all
sorts of techniques, but sales is an

(11:48):
inside job.
Yep, yep.
Yes. So understanding how to connect with
self is basically the answer to all. All things, actually, if you really wanted
to just get real broad, it's the answer to all things. But understanding where you
what drives you, what drives you from an emotional standpoint, what drives

(12:10):
you from a trauma response standpoint, that's going
to come out in your sales conversations, that's going to come out in the conversations
you have with clients or potential clients. So what
happens? A lot of times people that come to me, they feel icky. The technical
term is icky about sales, they feel icky about conversations
around money. They don't like asking for the sale.

(12:33):
And a lot of it's because they grew up and have trauma around money and
the power that they think it has over them and what it means.
And all it is is an energy exchange. The money is just a representation
of that energy. So in any way,
when you're asking for someone to do something, there's something that's being asked of
you too. So you have to understand if you could take the money out of

(12:56):
the equation and just say there's an exchange going on at all times,
there's always a give and take, a give and receive energy flowing through
you and whomever else you're interacting with. Money is just a representation
of that. So if you're on a sales call and you look at the energy
exchange, you have to ask yourself what it is that I'm really asking here.
I'm asking them to be open with me, so I better learn how to be

(13:17):
open and honest with them. If I want to talk about money
and I want them to be open about money, I better learn how to be
open about having conversations with money. And I
learned really fortunately, early on, at 20 years old,
I was interning with a woman who had a seven figure and this is
what, 30 some years ago, seven figure training company. And she used to

(13:39):
speak on large platforms and do training for large corporations. And I got to
see her do what she does. And I then got invited to
a local chapter of the National Speakers association. And I was with a lot of
people who were much older than I was at the time. You know, usually when
you were become a speaker, you had to be years of experience. And most of
them were in their 50s, 60s, 70s, which is where I am now. But I

(14:03):
was so much younger, but I was so open to learn from the things that
they had done. And so I got to hang out with people who were charging
six figures, who were charging five figures for consulting
and speaking and training. And that became normal
for me. That became. But when I. And talking about money became normal.

(14:23):
But when I was with my regular people, right, like my friends and my family,
and who were barely making in a year what
I was charging, sometimes for a month or one speaking engagement,
it was really hard to have conversations with them where money didn't become an
icky part of the conversation. So I fortunately got
to hang out with people who are much farther ahead of me, and I got

(14:46):
to be normalized. The conversations that you
really need to be able to have at a higher level as a business owner.
And I just knew not to have those conversations. Like, we didn't have that conversation
about how much my dad made when I was a kid. Like, that was,
how dare you talk about things like that? And, you know, it was weird to
talk about money. But when it's normal, you will have that conversation with

(15:10):
a client. You will be able to drop numbers that are just numbers. That's it.
That's it. Absolutely. When we can get the emotion
out of facts when we're talking about money,
then we can actually provide service. But let's come
back to this trauma response, because everything is

(15:31):
energy, and everything we say, do,
and feel will be emitted out of us.
So if we have an unhealed trauma to do with
money, if we have a disempowering belief, belief about what
money is or how it flows or our place
in it. If our mindset has our temperature

(15:54):
set at a low value, but we're trying to
level up, we are going
to be in the cognitive dissonance.
Exactly. So when people
are feeling the uncomfortable part of their

(16:15):
getting to the money conversation, or they're getting to the offer part
of a conversation, if they start feeling that
uncomfortable thing, that's the
whisper that their body is,
hey, you have something you need to work on first before

(16:36):
you project it out. Exactly. And when we can
honor that and not make ourselves wrong for it, we can honor that. That's an
opportunity to move through to another level of healing,
Whether it's emotional healing, mental hearing, spiritual healing, physical healing.
It's another opportunity. When you get that feeling of uncomfortableness,

(16:56):
that's a moment for you to say, how do I become More comfortable here.
What is it about this conversation or this moment that's making
me feel uncomfortable? And where physically in my body do I
feel that discomfort? That's how you start bringing the mind, the emotions,
the spirit and the body back together into one place.
Some of us are so good, especially business owners, at separating those

(17:20):
things that we don't realize the whispers because we can't feel them,
because we disconnected the wholeness of who we are.
Yes. Yes. And that is why I'm
so excited to have this conversation with you and because we were put
into a world of compartmentalization,

(17:40):
of siloing our lives.
But we cannot cut our head off and bring
our head to work and leave our body at home.
No, no. We are. As much as that show severance
wants to show us that we can't do it for a reason and
we shouldn't try to do it. No. So how

(18:03):
do we identify the uncomfortable feeling?
I'm sitting here in front of you, and I have something that
I know can help you, and you have expressed the
need that I have,
but I'm uncomfortable to go there.

(18:24):
Yeah. So your potential customer is going to be uncomfortable
to go there. Right. So if you.
So years ago, I. I was asked to speak for Verizon.
It was a really big deal for me. I was 22 years old, and I
had not charged a ton of money at that point to speak to on large

(18:44):
stages for. For organizations like that. And I went to one of the other women
in the National Speakers association that I was familiar with, and I said,
verizon has asked me to speak. How much
should I charge them? And she said, well, how much have you charged before?
And it was like $750. And again, this was like 30 years ago,
and it was an enormous amount of money to me at the time to get
paid to speak. I would do it for free. And she said, okay, well,

(19:07):
you charge $5,000. And I said, oh, my God,
$5,000. And she said, you charge 2,500?
And I said, oh, 2,500. And she said,
1500. And I said, 14.95. And she said,
that's how much you charge. And I said, how do you know? She said,
it's because it was the first number you said, without laughing, without hesitating,

(19:27):
and you just rolled with it. And I was like, whoa.
It wasn't how much they were going to pay. It was how much could I
even say with the confidence, without laughing?
So it's. It's just a number. Right. And when you
start to recognize your own hesitation. And it's
a vibration. It's a measurable vibration. This isn't like woo woo. This is actual science.

(19:52):
They can measure a vibration coming off of you. And if you're in fear,
fear or you're in concern for
your worth, that will vibrate off of you. And the other people,
even if they're on Zoom or they're right in front of you, they will feel
that vibration. They won't consciously realize they're feeling it, but they will
know it. And then they will also feel that vibration to the point where they

(20:14):
may be coming concerned. They don't try.
And in a world where in the 50 some years I've been
alive, I've never seen the level of distrust the way that
I see it right now. In business, in the world, in organizations
outside of the United States too. Right. We're seeing this in Canada, we're seeing it

(20:34):
all over. So your belief in self has to
be there, just quietly hanging out
so that your prospect not only trusts
that you are saying what is true, but you
trust your own process and you trust your own self and you trust what's coming

(20:54):
out of your own mouth. Yeah. So if you hesitate
or trip over or are worried about your offer, it doesn't
frankly matter if you're charging a hundred thousand dollars for it or $100 for it,
it's going to come through as something not to trust from the
prospect. Yep. I.

(21:14):
I love. Most people don't know this about me,
but I. My previous career, 40 years was
in sales and operations. And I remember one
case I was working with a salesperson who I
could not get her to understand

(21:36):
that her limitations were between her own ears.
And she had so much potential and
she had such an amazing personality and she had product knowledge and
I mean she had everything. But she could
barely meet any sales quotas.

(21:56):
She was scrimping by financially and
her job was in peril. And so I was working
with her and I remember saying to
her, you need to talk about the client's budget.
And she was appalled.
Appalled. I could never ask somebody

(22:19):
that. It was as if she was digging into their
personal sex life,
asked them what their favorite position was in
the bedroom, that's how it was so
appalling to her. And when I was able
to demonstrate to her by saying, okay, let me work with your clients,

(22:42):
with you. And I just. So what's
your budget? What are your goals? What do you want to achieve?
And when we went through the whole qualifying process and
I was just asking questions with zero judgment,
zero bias. Because I was unpacking

(23:07):
their situation. Curious, how can I help?
Where is it? And just looking at all of it and not having
an emotional reaction to anything. Where this salesperson
was afraid to close $1,000 deal and
the deal closed at 25,000 because the thousand did

(23:29):
not meet their needs. And that's where their angst were coming from.
And the salesperson had a belief that it was because it
was too much money. When it wasn't money, it didn't solve
the problem. So why am I going to spend something that's not going to solve
my problem but the problem solved.
You understood that it meant nothing personally to

(23:52):
anyone. It was a factor, it was a number. And that was all to
get them to an answer. And if your goal is to get them to the
right answer for them, you will ask the questions that most people won't because they
think it's wrong to answer that question or it's wrong to push back.
You did something really brilliant there where you went in with absolutely no attachment to
the outcome and no attachment to their answers. And they felt

(24:16):
that no attachment to their answers. So they felt open enough to
say it. And it's funny that you even, you know, equate it to sex
life. I have a really good friend who's a sex therapist. She will say things
that ah, not stay in a regular group
because it's normal for her to ask these questions. But the way she does it,
even if it's like in somebody's like literal thought process in

(24:38):
their bedroom, right. She's able to ask questions in a way where she's not attached
to their answer. You can clearly feel there is no judgment no matter what you
say. And she helps people over decades of trauma
quickly because she's so normalizing in her conversation
too. So no matter what the subject matter, no matter what the thing is,

(24:59):
if we can make it just so normal every day. I have no attachment
to your answers and I have no judgment for it. But I need this information
in order to help you. It's amazing
how people will open up. So often. I'm on sales calls with
people who are will say things to me like I've never told somebody this before
or oh my gosh, thank you for asking that. Or thank you for making

(25:20):
me feel safe enough to talk about this. And sometimes it's a
topic that most people like. How do you not feel safe talking about that thing?
But there's a trauma response they have around it. And sometimes I'm on sales team
step onto my. My client's sales teams, or I'll step onto
sales teams to get an understanding of what you're reacting to
or what's. Because I'll have the sales team tell me, oh, everyone's broke. No one

(25:43):
has any money. No one wants to do a yearly program.
Nobody wants to do a short program. They always have a reason why they're not
selling. I'm like, okay, cool. Let me go see what my. My response is.
And I will close in the last. I stepped on
a team, I closed literally nine times more than
other women on the team. And they were like, how did

(26:05):
you. It must be your skills. I'm like, listen to my calls and
listen to where you get hung up. I have no attachment to their outcome.
And I tell them that, look, I'm asking these questions because I'm
trying to help you get to the best answer for you and get clarity.
Is that okay? And they say, yes. And I said, I have no attachment
to your yes or your no. I just want to help you find one clearly.

(26:25):
Is that okay? Yes. Okay, cool.
And then we start talking. And when I ask the question, I ask it with
no attachments. Seriously. It's a skill you do have to learn.
But when you realize they'll open up more to you, it's not. You're not offending
them. And if they become offended, which I can't think of one time where I
ever asked somebody where somebody said, I'm offended, but if they were, that's still their

(26:46):
stuff. And that's information for you that's helpful.
But I had another woman just earlier this week.
She brought us a book with her from another bro sales guy,
and she read a passage for the book and one of the recommendations
he was making, when somebody puts up a. A wall and they say, no,
I'm not going to make this decision right now, his response was to

(27:10):
tell that person, well, you said you cared about this and achieving
this. You must not care about more than
you care about your money. That was written in a book.
I read that book. I know who you're talking about.
And I was like, whoa, let's dial that back

(27:31):
for a second. I understand where the premise is of what he's coming from.
It's the they're telling you something's important to them, but now they're telling you the
money is more important. Yes. And you can absolutely mirror
that back to them. But do not use shame as the way to
do that. You can lean in with them and say,
hey, I'm seeing something. That and congruent. Are you open to me seeing, helping you

(27:54):
see a reflection? I've never had somebody say no, but they, they have
the opportunity to. And I've done that with people where I hear them saying,
this is important, but the money. Now I can't find the money or I can't.
So I'm like, okay, this is super important to you. But I'm hearing that you're
saying that it's more. It's not. It's not
as it's incongruent with when you said this was important, but now you're saying that

(28:17):
the money is too expensive. Expensive. So help me understand.
Is it that you don't feel like the solution is going to help you get
to where you want to go, that you don't trust yourself getting where you want
to go, or that you don't feel that this is the right program for you?
I'm just trying to understand so I can help you. And usually that's when they're
like, well, you know what? I've done this before. And I felt like

(28:38):
I had the right answer, but I didn't show up in the best way or
it didn't work for me. And I don't trust. I do it.
If you've got somebody who's feeling that way, but you spin them into a shame
spiral, you're losing that sale not only forever, but you're losing anyone else they
could have referred to. So the idea of challenging and shame,
I think, is not the best way to do it.

(29:00):
Absolutely. Shame is one of those emotions,
whether we feel it or impose it, it is an external
emotion. And there is no lower vibrating emotion
other than death. No, it is. It is the deepest running
one. And it, it will vibrate through in ways that I can't

(29:20):
even explain how deep that goes. But it's one of the most visceral responses,
the worst, lowest vibration. I agree. It. It will shut
someone down totally. Let's. Let's unpack
this a little bit because I don't get to have these
sales type conversations on Unlearn

(29:42):
the Crap very often. I think I told you that when I
had my breakdown and that led to my breakthrough that
made me come to this place of empowering
people through all aspects. I put that part of me to
the side. So this is a fun place

(30:03):
for me to relive and, and help people
understand that everything
we do is sales. I want to
talk about qualifying. Okay. I want to talk about qualifying
because so many people try to
believe that every single client that

(30:27):
whole ABCs always be closing. Always.
Every single person we come encounter with is our ideal client.
But if we looked at qualifying for us
to determine whether they are our
ideal client and we are their ideal

(30:49):
solution before you ever go into that.
And that's what we're trying to see. Do we have a match? Do we have
alignment? Are we connected?
And that's what the qualifying process is about.
It's not about trying to squeeze somebody through a
funnel like a tube of toothpaste.

(31:12):
Nobody likes to be toothpaste. I think that's a new book title.
I think it is. Write that one down.
So what is. What is your. Because that
crap. We were taught that sales is

(31:34):
a set of behaviors and we
need to just keep doing and saying the right words.
And if we're not closing the sale,
there's something wrong with us. Yeah,
that was talk about shame. Right. So that's a lot of how a lot of
sales teams are run is that if you're not closing these, there's something wrong with

(31:56):
you. You're broken. Now, I do like to use it as a check to
say, okay, if you're not closing up to a certain amount, there's something wrong in
the process. Either there's a way that you're coming through in the call.
There's something with the leads that are coming in. Like let's get a handle on
where the. The kind of broken or fractured pieces are. Are. So.
But there's nothing wrong with you. Right. But I want to

(32:18):
look at, you know, how do we do this? And with different teams, I do
different things as far as it depends on how many leads they have coming in.
It depends on how much they're paying for the leads, how we qualify ahead of
time. So there's multiple processes that we typically go through. For most people when they're
doing high ticket sales that are called looked to a call and then that's going
through from there. Now you could do events and things ahead of time that help

(32:40):
lead the right people to you. There's a free form typically that we have people
fill out when they're booking the call. So you ask very strategic specific questions.
But you don't necessarily just shut everyone down because they don't have any money.
I can't tell you the number of people I have sold in a five figure
programs paid in full, who put on their form that they are. They are broke.
So you. You want to do a kind of a combination. But if you don't

(33:01):
have a ton of leads coming in, which is not most people. You don't usually
have so many leads coming in that you have to like slow down the lead
flow. I recommend, especially in the beginning, you take all of the calls,
but you use that call as a 15, 20 minute first
initial call to funnel out the wrong people or filter out
the wrong people. So with a lot of teams, especially if there's something difficult,

(33:25):
more difficult to sell, which like I sold a health program for
people in autoimmune for 15 years, that's I think, a slightly more, more challenging
thing to sell because you have people showing up on a call who are trying
to get away from feeling horrible than trying to reach towards feeling
like crap. The people who are feeling like crap show up on the call.
They're a harder vibration to move into a

(33:49):
hope space into a visionary, I can see the other side space. So I
always like to do those as two calls at least. Where we do a first
call where that's the filter and it's 15 minutes, it's a,
let me get a feel for this person, let me get a vibration on this
person, let me ask them some very specific questions and see how they show up.
That's the first way that I typically have people filter when there are a lower

(34:11):
vibration energy showing up. If they're a higher vibration energy, where they're
like, I can't wait to start my business and I want to go to the
next level if they show up in that way. Usually that one call can actually
be an easier close. And typically I'll do the first call as
a half hour, 45 minutes. So they're different,
doesn't mean they'll close on that call, but it's different. So. But I

(34:32):
want you to be watching for how are they showing up on this call.
Imagine working with them as a customer or a client.
Are they going to be the bad apple in the group of people that you're
currently working with? Is it somebody that I get excited about working with is somebody,
I can see the other side for them. Is it somebody who's asking for help,
they just, just don't know how? Or is it somebody who wants to

(34:53):
stay and they're stuck? Is it somebody who's fighting for their crap?
And so that's a big one. I mean, I've literally had calls
with people for health calls and business calls and all of the other ones
in between where I've stopped the call and said, hey, look, I'm getting
this feeling that right now isn't the best time for you to

(35:15):
do X. And sometimes they'll say,
why not? And I said, well, I'm getting this energy that it sounds
like you're in more fear and that you need to stay where you are right
now than what it's going to take to move over to the other side.
Because getting to the other side of anything is never easy. There's always a
challenge. There's always action that has to be taken. How are you feeling about that?

(35:35):
Again, no judgment. Sometimes they'll say, you're right.
I'm in it. I. I need to be in it. This is my identity.
This is who I've always been. Or I'll say, like, with somebody with autoimmune,
let's say fibromyalgia. I'll. I'll hear that. Like, that's my
identity. I'll hear it. They won't say those words exactly,
but I'll feel like, who would I be? So I'll say to them, who would

(35:57):
you be? So let's. Let's pretend we're on the other side of this. Who would
you be without the fibromyalgia? And sometimes it paralyzes.
Like, you can feel them shut down, like, go. Because that's who
they are. They're in all the groups to talk about fibromyalgia. They're in all the.
The places where they're just. That's their identity.
That's who they are. That's. They're part of nonprofits that support it,

(36:21):
and there's nothing wrong with that. But without it, they don't understand who would be.
They will not be able to psychologically let go of that
identity or they're not ready to. Right.
Yes. And if you, as the salesperson,
attributing what they're going through and their

(36:41):
identity as something to do with you and
their decision is the outcome of how you will see
yourself. Right now. You have
two people who cannot connect.
You've got two positives or two negatives,
you know? Yeah,

(37:04):
totally. Each other. Absolutely.
But it's part of your job as the salesperson. When you get to a point
where you feel like they're fighting to stay in their space
now. I mean, your job as a salesperson is to help them envision where the
other side of the. Where the other side is. See where they are now,
and then show them if you think it's right. Show them how your solution

(37:28):
is that bridge from where. Where they are now to where they want to go.
If they're fighting to stay on the side they're on right now.
There's no reason to even show them the bridge. No.
Right. Because they're not going. They want to stay here. So I will. I will
pull that through and say, hey, I'm just getting a sense that you feel more
comfortable staying where you are now. And it does feel hard to make change.

(37:49):
Am I sensing that correctly? And sometimes they'll say,
yes. And I said, okay, so what brought you to this call?
And sometimes like, oh, I was just curious. Oh, I just wanted to know.
I'm like, okay, so it sounds to me right now that it's not the right
solution for you. Am I getting that? And they're like, yeah.
You are like, okay, cool. And I don't, like, I don't want to

(38:10):
waste their time. I don't want to waste my time. Like, there's a point where,
okay, cool. I got to where we needed to go, which was the clarity on
is this the right thing for you right now? But then there's the other people
who are like, well, wait a minute. I really do want to go to the
other side. I don't know how to find that thing. Place in me. Okay,
well, we can talk about that. I can help you find that. Do you want
to find that? They're like, yes. Okay.

(38:31):
Then they fight to get to the other side.
But it's all curiosity. Yeah. One of the questions that I
would ask someone who was in that place would be
right. My job here is to help you make your a decision.
That's what I'm here. Here to help you do. It sounds to

(38:53):
me that the decision is no. Do you want
me to help you accept that decision, or do you want me to help you
work through it? So beautiful.
And then they realize that if they don't
make a decision, if they want to sit on the fence, I'm going to make
the decision for them and say the answer is no. Yes. And then

(39:17):
that's when the real version of them steps up the
real version. But what you did, which is so beautiful psychologically, is that nobody
wants to feel like they don't have control. A lot of people give up control,
but it's not because they don't want to be in control. They want to feel
like they're in control of what's going on. But you still, as the salesperson,
have to hold the space of not superiority, but of

(39:40):
power, that you're controlling the direction of the way things are going
in a way that makes them feel saf. Safe. What you did was so brilliant.
And this works with. With people, with children, with Dogs, actually,
this works with everyone is when you can hold that space and
hold that energy for them that you're sure and you're in control, all going to

(40:01):
be okay. But they have choice. Everyone feels better.
So what you did is you basically say, I'm getting the sense that it's this.
Would you like me to help you feel better about that decision? Or and you
want to know how to get out now you've given them choice, but you've controlled
those choices are. So you were still actually ultimately empowered to

(40:21):
help them feel where they have their empowered self to step
up into it. And that's a beautiful way to do it. You're not shaming them
into it. You're not tricking them into it. You're helping them step into their power
and give you the energy that's going to serve at
least today. Absolutely. And that comes
right back to our unlearning the crap.

(40:44):
When we carry these wounds in,
when we carry our belief systems in and
we believe that everybody thinks
and feels the same way we do.
And there's not a human being on this earth that

(41:05):
thinks and feels the same way that any of us do.
No. But ultimately we all want to feel seen, heard and
understood. So if you can go into any conversation and think this person wants to
see, feel seen, heard and understood, and I also want to
feel seen, heard and understood, you can see where conflict can arise and you can
see where you can join together and be on the same side, as they say,

(41:29):
of the table. This doesn't have to be an adversarial process. You don't have to
trick them. You don't have to have the perfect phrasing. But if you can come
into the conversation with an openness to
feel curious about how they're feeling seen, heard and understood right now
and do your best to hold that space, it's going to work out exactly
the way it's supposed to. Exactly.

(41:51):
Absolutely. So while we're here and
we've touched on the sales process, we've touched on objections,
and we brought everything to the empowerment
of us that we're in control of
every situation. And when we hand the control over,

(42:14):
it's like getting into the car, sitting behind
the driver's seat, and expecting the person in the backseat to actually be navigating.
Right. What we're setting ourselves up for.
So how do we deal in
the business world when we're, when we're talking about how

(42:35):
everything we do say, feel, we bring into
it? How do we translate that to conflict?
And I Want to hear your opinion, because I obviously know my own.
So let me make sure I understand the question correctly. So when we're in that
sales call and we don't feel comfortable, how do we translate that to conflict?

(42:56):
Or how are we doing it subconsciously? How do we
deal with a conflict situation, business,
personal, and still remain in
control? And understanding that those triggers,
those emotions, those traumas, those every. Is information to

(43:17):
us? Yes. That it's not meant to disempower
us. No. So, I mean, I think that's. That's the answer.
Essentially, like yesterday or the day before something happened where it
triggered me into a space where I really felt out of control. I felt like
I didn't know anything. I spun into an old trigger that's
deep, deep, deep. And every now and then when I'm just kind of not feeling

(43:40):
my best, it's. It can show up. And then all of the pieces, like,
the whole story shows up. I'm not good enough, and I shouldn't be doing this,
and I should go get a job in Starbucks. And who do I think I
am? Like, it all spun out. I was like, oh, Kirsten. Oh, Kiersten.
So I said, okay, this is just a vibration. This is
just an energy. And it's just an opportunity for me to see

(44:02):
a story that is no longer true, but still may have an energetic
whole hold where I get to just be with it. And it didn't feel
good. It did not feel good. And I was the master of pushing away what
did not feel good. And I said, this is a great opportunity for me to
uplevel because I've done so much work, and here I have this opportunity.
And again, it did not feel good. But when I got into the. This is

(44:25):
just a story. It's an old story. It's not a true story.
All I have to do right now is sit with it and breathe. Because I
also remember what it's like to not feel this story. And I got
to play into that where I go, and in 10 minutes or in five minutes
or at some point later today, I'm going to feel that empowered self again because
she's not gone. She just. She just took a minute. She went

(44:49):
to the bathroom or something. She's not in this moment, but she's still there.
So all this is. Is an energetic vibration to something that I made
true. That is not so when you can start to see those
moments, like if you're in a sales call or you're in a conversation, you're in
a moment of conflict. And you can say all this is. Is a moment of
conflict. It does not mean who I am. It is not. Does not make me
who I am. It is not true. It is just a momentary

(45:12):
response. Then all you have to do is just be in it
until it's not there anymore. You don't have to do anything other than just get
back to you. That's why it works really well. So if you've ever seen somebody
who's having a panic attack and the old thing is to give them the paper
bag to breathe in and out of, do you know psychologically why that
actually works for people to calm down? Because people think

(45:35):
it has to do with the oxygen and all the carbon dioxide and all the
things. It's. Because psychologically what's happening is they have something else
to focus on. They focus on the sound of the bag going in and out.
The bag actually going in and out. What's happening in that moment,
it refocused back to this moment here. And now the only
thing that actually even matters, not to what happened that got me here, or not

(45:56):
to what's coming for me, but what's here. And it brings you back to
your sensory being, because you're hearing it, you're sometimes selling the brown
paper bag. You are feeling it, you are seeing it. You're bringing back into your
sensory being, which is all we really are. We try to intellectualize
it all, but we're really just sensory beings first. We sense things, we feel things.
That's why that works. So when you start to recognize this,

(46:21):
just know that you're higher up than you were 10 minutes ago,
because now you see it. Just because you can't get out of it instantaneously doesn't
mean there's anything wrong with you. But you see it, which means you're online,
you're aware, and it's not just driving you underneath the surface where you're
unaware. Yes. Yes. And now
that you've done that exercise of awareness for yourself,

(46:45):
now you can recognize when somebody
else, a potential client or a client or a
co worker or a family member, a loved one, whatever, is being
in that trigger. And it's not about you
being part of that ignition.

(47:05):
It's about understanding that something has
happened within them. And now we need
to get back to that calm place where we're
all focusing in on the breathing, where we're
all coming back to the moment and we're letting that energy move

(47:26):
through us without it
being an attack on us. And now it's not about us.
But that's what happens. So many times people attack
and connect to that energy instead of staying disconnected.
Yeah, they. So if you've ever seen any of those nature shows

(47:50):
where the gazelle is running along and she's with pack and everything's
fine, and then she stops for a moment to drink from the brook and the
lioness sees her and comes for her and they go chasing through.
A lot of times the lioness will grab them, take them down. And the body's
response for the gazelle is to shut down. And it's the, it's the fight flight

(48:10):
or freeze response. She shuts down, she freezes, she becomes paralyzed,
she gets dragged off back to the den. And a lot of times
they don't kill them on right there. But what will happen
is they'll. They'll leave them thinking that they're dead to go get something else that
they need. And the animal, the gazelle sees their moment, they get
up, they book out of there. Like they get the heck out

(48:34):
of town. And then when they reach safety, they shake
and they just shake. And that's the trauma response completion.
Most of us don't get the opportunity to complete our trauma response. It gets
stuck midway and we never complete it. So there's a lot of different techniques and
modalities and things that I use to help somebody get into that subconscious space and

(48:54):
actually complete the cycle. But when you become aware,
that's one of the most important pieces of completing the cycle or
not falling back into it after you've started the cycle completion.
And it can happen 30 years later. It doesn't have to happen in that moment
because time doesn't matter in a trauma, believe it or not. It actually just needs
the completion whether it happens 30 minutes later or 30 years later.

(49:16):
So in that the awareness becomes really important and we become back into.
Our conscious mind isn't trying to override all of our things and our subconscious isn't
driving all things. So that's a trauma completion.
So if you're feeling that trigger, just be like, hey, there's an opportunity for complete
this cycle and at least become aware it's happening and see it

(49:38):
on other people. Like, you'll never look at somebody's response the
same way ever again now because you're going to go,
oh, I get it. They're being driven by something
that is underneath their conscious thought process. Process,
okay, it's not about me. And then the
sales role is about creating the safety

(50:00):
and the security and the foundation and the
grounding for that person to complete their
cycle. So they can now re engage with their
prefrontal cortex, their intelligent brain, so they can make a
conscious, well informed decision.
Yes or no? Yes, yes and

(50:23):
yes. And then you say yes.
Yes. Because when we're in that
emotional response, when there's conflict,
when there's heightened any type of emotion, negative,
positive, it really doesn't matter. That heightened emotion

(50:44):
is information telling us that there's something underneath me.
Yes. We aren't heightened. We aren't in
those extremes unless there is information
that is vital that we need
to address. Yeah. And it's attached to our ability to feel

(51:04):
safe, to feel like we're in control, to feel like we are not going to
be injured and we're not in danger. It's a whole big speech against the
whole fight or flight right response. And it's something that could be very small and
you may not see it. That triggers them back into a moment of feeling abandonment
or feeling shame or feeling fear at some level. And you
want to honor that. That may happen on a sales call because most people that

(51:26):
are on a sales call are there to change something that's going on, that they
want to be different. So when you're challenging something that is the now trying
to help someone move into something in the future that they want more,
there is going to be a moment of conflict because the subconscious wants to to
stay where they are right now. Because that is what is safe, because that is
what they know, even though they're asking for it to be different. So you may

(51:48):
run right up against that not knowing. And there's moments of trigger
even in some of the most simplest of sales opportunities.
Yes, because the dollar value does not affect
that decision process. No,
that's where money has nothing to do with it at that point. And that's where

(52:11):
people will find gobs of cash. Do something when they tell
you that they're broke because they've now valued what that is
and they will change things to make that happen. So we always find
money for the things we find to be important and of value. Always. We figure
it out. But it's still not your job to.

(52:32):
It's your job to help them find that if they want that.
But it's not your job to shame them around that. And again, back to some
of the other sales techniques that we have both apparently seen in the marketplace.
Well, you and I both see sales as
a empowered, heightened,
leveled up version of humanity,

(52:55):
of service, of give
and take, as part of the universal law of rhythm, of reciprocity,
of compensation. And when we see
it as part of that flow. And we're not
coming at it from a place of low vibrating emotions,

(53:15):
of fear, of greed, of it being about us.
Because we can't build a business where
we're serving others if the only focus we have
is in on ourselves. We must do that inner work ourselves first
before we come out into the world.

(53:37):
Yes, 100%. Hallelujah.
I have loved, loved, loved every moment of this
conversation. And I'm sure that our audience has as
well. So when they're listening and they're thinking,
huh, where am I going wrong?

(53:58):
Why am I not getting the sales as much as I want?
Why is my business not moving in the direction I want?
How can you help them and how can they find you?
That is a good question. So I mean, the first thing is I want to
just understand where they're coming from. So we'll have a conversation for me to understand
what, what their issues are, what their challenges are, things like that. And if I

(54:18):
can help them, I absolutely will show them how to do that. And if I
think there's someone better than me or there's different process, I can also refer them
to the best places for them. But they can go to evolveminded.com
I have free resources on there right
now. There's the seven biggest sales mistakes costing you high ticket clients and how
to fix them. They can download that report, but they can just book a

(54:40):
call with me. We'll have a good 20 or 30 minute conversation. I'll collect more
information to understand what, where they are and where they want to go. And again,
if I have a solution to them for them, we can talk about that.
But if I think there's a better solution, I'll give them that too.
I love what you're doing. You're helping to not only
level up each individual salesperson and business,

(55:02):
but in the process helping to unlearn the crap
about pressure, shame,
any of those negative emotions that are in business
because we are all integrated human beings.
Yes, yes,
100. Yep.

(55:26):
And that is not woo woo. That is actual measurable stuff. So yes,
yes. I think the whole identity of using
the word woo woo was about part of
the control and the manipulation that we taught that we
must unlearn. That I know, because people that are

(55:47):
in, people that are empowered are harder to manage. So they're,
they're going to think for themselves. And it's a lot harder to manage a lot
of people who are thinking for themselves. So when you're a think for yourself person,
you often feel like the black sheep. You feel like you don't fit you.
There's a reason for that, right? You. You sense something there, there,
there. There's a higher opportunity for you, and that doesn't always

(56:09):
fit to manage a large group of people. So hallelujah.
If you feel like you're kind of off, but there are other people that are
off, like you are too, that are doing amazing things.
So find your people. Find those people who vibrate in that energy and
that can be around you to help normalize how you feel and how you think.
Think and how you're moving through the world.

(56:30):
Absolutely. Thank you, Kirsten, for your passion,
your insight, your knowledge. Thank you for your time. I have enjoyed
every second. Thank you for having me. This is. This is a good time.
This is a great conversation.
Until next time, continue to challenge everything so

(56:50):
that you can accomplish anything, knowing that you can
unlearn everything, any crap, at any moment in time, and level
up to your best self. Your soul is calling and the
world is waiting. Thank you.

(59:46):
Thank you for listening to the Unlearn the Crap and Level up podcast.
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(01:00:10):
Unlearn the Crap and Level Up. Your soul is calling a roadmap
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How I unlearned my crap, which is my
raw story of breaking free and the patterns that I
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(01:00:30):
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(01:01:17):
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