How to Monetize a Podcast Without Selling Out — with Dave Jackson - UPBEAT with Parker Kane

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
GUEST (Dave Jackson) (00:00):
If you need to be a guru, just grab your invisible
wand and just boop yourself in the

HOST (Parker Kane) (00:05):
head and go.
Okay.
I'm a, I'm a consultant now.
What's one of the biggest lessonsyou've learned about yourself with
podcasting, but also what typicallypeople in general struggle with

GUEST (Dave Jackson): overcoming imposter syndrome? (00:16):
undefined
Because that's really what,it's not the technology or the
budget that stops most people.
It's, it's the thing between our ears.
It is something that I just was like,well, who's going to listen to me?
It's not a matter of like,what's the one strategy?
It's how many strategies can I have?
Because the more hoses that are goinginto the pool, the, the quicker it fills

up pod page is some of the website stuff that you're working on.
And you mentioned in your breakdowna couple times too, the importance
of people, uh, being able togo to a website to support.

Yeah.
Pod page will build a websitefor you basically from your
feed in about 10 minutes.

I like to call those full circle moments where 99.9% of the
time we don't get to hear back about it.
But it doesn't mean it's not happening.

You don't monetize a podcast.
You monetize an audience.
You have to solve a problem orhelp them in some way or another.
Uh, so that's the thing.
So really focus on.

All right.
Welcome back y'all.
Thanks so much for beinghere, listening to Upbeat.
I'm your host, Parker Kane.
We've got an incredibleguest on the show today.
I'm so excited to introduce you to him.
His name is Dave Jackson.
I, before we hit record, called hima legend and he said that that was.
Maybe a little bit too, too niceor gen genuine of me, and I'm like,

(01:43):
no, genuinely, I think you arealleged in the podcasting space.
And so I'm glad that he's here today.
Dave, how's it going man?

GUEST (Dave Jackson): Parker glad to be here. (01:50):
undefined
Yes, the, the legend Dave Jacksonis on the microphone, so yeah.
Oh, that's funny.
But glad to be here.

Absolutely.
I'm glad you're here too.
And I do think you're a legend, youknow, been, you've been podcasting what?
Since 2005,

2005.
Back when we would, we would chiselthe podcast out of granite and yeah,
it was, uh, it was not fun back then.
My favorite was I would, you know,go up to somebody and say, you
know, do you listen to podcasts?
They're like, do I need an iPod for that?
And I was like, Ugh.
Then you explain what it was.
You just need the internet and speakers.
And then once you finally, youknow, they understood what it was,

(02:26):
they're like, yeah, don't do that.
They're like, okay, great.
Nevermind.
So,

yeah, I feel like, I mean, even when I, because
I started podcasting in 2017.
Mm-hmm.
Is when I first looked into it.
Even then, people didn't have aclue what I was talking about when
I was talking about podcasting.
So I, I'm curious though, um, this.
Especially since this podcastis so passion based and, uh, you
know, focused in mental, mentalwellness and personal development.

(02:53):
Yeah.
People pursuing their passions.
What was it about podcasting even backthen that kind of drew you in originally?

Yeah.
Uh, a friend of mine come back froma marketing thing and he said, Hey,
and again, this dates me, but I hadkind of missed the MySpace boat,
which was just ginormous at the time.
And he is like, you knowhow you missed that?
He goes, I've seen the next big thing.
It's podcasting.
I Googled it and there was oneand a half pages and I was like,
wait, how do you spell that?
And he was like, dude, it's POD casting.

(03:22):
And I'm like, okay, one and a half pages.
And so there just wasn't much out there.
And when I kind of paper clipped onetogether with some shoestring and
rubber bands, and I uploaded thisfile and saw come down, the light bulb
went off and I turned a blog I'd beendoing for musicians into a podcast
and within like a month and a half.
I got a voicemail from this guy namedMichael Van Lar from Nuremberg, Germany.

(03:47):
And I remember listening to it and mybrother was right behind me and he's like,
did he, did he say Nuremberg, Germany?
And I was like, yeah.
And I would just hit play and I'dHello Dave, this is Michael Van Lar
from, and I was like, wait, wait, what?
'cause I'm in the middle of nowhere,Ohio, and there's some guy in Nuremberg,
Germany that not only found my show.
But liked it.
And I was just like, allright, gimme the flag.

(04:08):
I claim podcasting in the name of Dave.
I was just like, so that'swhen I was like, wow.
And it's funny 'cause if you,my background's in teaching so.
If you give a podcast to ateacher, they're like, oh, we
can all learn from each other.
And if you give a podcast to asalesman, they're like, man, I can
make a lot of money with this thing.
And if, you know, depending on whatyour why is and how you want to use it.

(04:32):
But I just realized initially like,wait a minute, this is like global.
I knew it was global, but whenyou hear somebody coming outta
your speakers from Germany, you'relike, oh no, this is global.
Like that's not a lie.
So that's what really, uh,threw me back in my chair.

Yeah.
Kind of differentiator from radio rather.
Yeah.
Being super hyperlocal.

Yeah.
'cause you gotta remember backthen, now everybody listens to,
you know, I just go to the websitefor the radio station and hit play.
Or I listen on some service or whatever.
Or in their app.
Back then radio was like,you're as strong as your signal.
And that was about it.
So there wasn't a lotof listing online yet.

Right.
Well, thanks for breakingthat down for us.
And I'm also curious aboutthe music side of it.
I'm a musician too.
I'm a beatboxer.
Oh, nice.
And singer.
And guitarist.
Uh, I'll actually do some beatboxing foryou kind of near the end of the episode.
Excellent.
But, um, curious about what passionwas there for music too, and how
that's mixed with podcasting.

Yeah, I, well, the, the bonus of it is I, I started
to play the guitar when I was five.
I tried to, and my fingers weretoo small and I was left-handed.
And after not being able to get abaseball, MIT, or scissors, when I
was six, I was like, okay, enoughof this left-handed stuff, I'm done.
And I just switched.

(05:49):
And then my brother, I had alittle plastic guitar and I
was really trying to learn.
And once I switched from beingleft-handed, 'cause it was trying
to kind learn guitar in a mirror,everything was upside down and backwards.
So once I switched.
I did, like everybody else did.
I played Jimmy Crack corn and I don'tcare, and all that stuff for a while.
And then my brother started playingac DC and stuff and I was like, wait,

(06:12):
how, how, how are you doing that?
And he showed me bar chordsand it was like somebody just
flipped a giant light switch.
And I would just, I'd go to school, comehome, and I would play until dinner.
And then after dinner was over, Iwould go downstairs and play for
about three or four hours a night.
I just, that's all Idid was play the guitar.
So over the years I've been in.

(06:33):
Heavy metal bands.
I've been in country bands,which I still think was like
one of the signs of Armageddon.
And then the last band I was inwas kind of a blues swing band.
And then, uh, everybody got married andhad kids, and that was the end of that.
And I've just been, I had playedin my church occasionally, but,
you know, but that's, that's it.
But it, it really.
Because I knew sound systems.

(06:54):
I ran the sound for the bandand things like that, so I had
a microphone sitting around.
And so I think that was one ofthe, the first thing, 'cause people
were like, which mics do you get?
I'm like, well, I got an SM 58sitting right here and got a
bunch of, that's what I started

with.
Yeah.

And got a bunch of connectors and ended up plugging it into
my computer and was like, okay, all right.
I can hear myself.
And you just kind of go from there.
And like most people, my firstepisode is absolutely cringe-worthy.
And, uh, you know, that's you,you gotta start someplace.
So,

it is cool though when you get, I mean, it's awful when
you hear yourself and you feel cringe.
Yeah.
But it's cool because you knowthat you've grown so much.
And that's the thing is ittakes putting in those reps
just for years in order to grow.
Which is a good segue into kind of oneof the first questions I wanted to ask
you, which is what's one of the biggestlessons you've learned, uh, about yourself

(07:49):
with podcasting, but also what, whattypically people in general struggle with?

Yeah.
It's, some of it is about learningabout myself is, was overcoming,
overcoming imposter syndrome.
Because I was kind oflike, well, who am I?
Because I, I had seen where they weresaying, membership sites and podcasting
are gonna be the next big thing.
So I went Reese Cup and I'm like, well,let's put those together and create

(08:15):
a membership site about podcasting.
And I had been doing this podcast formusicians and at the time there's a guy
named Bob Baker who was like the godfatherof music marketing, his books in the
movie School of Rock with Jack Black.
And I remember.
Thinking, well, it'd be greatif I could have Bob on the show.
And I'm like, but who am I?

(08:35):
And I asked Bob, I'm like, andI think Bob had actually sent me
something 'cause he had heard my show.
Because again, back then they were likemaybe a hundred, you know, podcasts.
So if you search music, music,marketing, you know, I kind of came
up and I was like, man, I can'tbelieve Bob Baker listens to my show.
And I, I interviewed himand I go, well, how did you.

(08:56):
Become such like you are the Godfather.
And he is like, well, I had played inbands, so I knew about that and I, I knew
about marketing and I knew how to write.
He's like, so I started anewsletter and the next thing you
know, everybody was reading it.
And I go, oh, that's kind of wild.
And he goes, so if you're, if you need tobe a guru, just grab your invisible wand
and just boop yourself in the head andgo, okay, I'm a, I'm a consultant now.

(09:20):
He goes, 'cause uh, and I've heard this alot, you just need to know a little more.
Than your audience.
And in fact, I've, I've helpedpeople do shows where they don't
know more than their audience.
And I call those a journey show whereit's like, Hey, I, I remember, um,
Joanna Penn did a show, uh, called TheCreative Pen 'cause that's her last name.

(09:41):
And it was all about how tobe an independent writer.
And when she firststarted, she had no clue.
And so that was, man,probably 15 years ago.
Now she is the independent writer, guru.
You got to listen to her alongthe way, learn this and learn
that, and that whole nine yards.
So you don't always have to be the guru,but it is something that I just was

(10:02):
like, well, who's going to listen to me?
And so the thing that kind of startedme on that was I was doing blog posts,
uh, before I started the podcast.
And I had people said, youshould put these into a book.
And just that kind of was like, huh?
I'm saying things thatpeople find value in.

(10:22):
And so just those little nudges.
And I was like, you know, and I,I had missed the MySpace boat.
I had missed a bunch of stuff that youjust like, you know, you see it go by
and you are like, ah, should have boughtApple stock, you know, or whatever it was.
And I, I just, when this came along, I waslike, I'm not gonna let this one go by.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna jump inthe boat and see what happens.

(10:45):
And I had no idea what I was doing.
And this was back before there werethings like Teachable and Thinkific and.
You would buy this script andhave to load it on your own
server to make a membership site.
I mean, it was, it was ugly.
And I just remember, you know, you,you'd get the directions and you're doing
everything via FTP, and you know, all of asudden, you know, first of all, you spend

(11:07):
a night trying to figure out why it's notworking, and you find out later that you
just spent four hours figuring out thatthere were two commas instead of one.
And you got rid of the one and poofyour website's back and you're like,
oh, you've gotta be kidding me.
But, you know, those are the things you,you learn and um, you know, you just, as
you go, you're like, oh, like you needfriends too, that tell you the truth.

(11:31):
And I had a friend of mine when I firststarted off, I was like, man, if I could
get, I don't know, 200 people to gimmefive bucks, I mean, that would be amazing.
Because you're thinking it's the internet.
And I had a friend call me up andhe is like, Hey, how's the, how's
the school of podcasting going?
I'm like, well, you know, it's slow.
And he is like, all right,I got a question for it.
And I go, what?

(11:51):
And he goes, can you name anything on theinternet that has value for five bucks?
And I was like, no.
And he's like, exactly.
I go and I was like, oh.
And it was funny 'cause then I raisedit to 20 and I had people sign up.
Then, but they weren't doing anything.
They were just giving me $20 and they'dbe like, yeah, I'm gonna get to it.
And I was like, well, my businessmodel was you start a podcast

(12:15):
and then people will go, Hey,where'd you learn how to podcast?
And you go like, you needto go see my buddy Dave.
And I'm like, if you're not makinga podcast, that doesn't work.
And so over the years, I've justkept increasing it and increasing it
until I found the right for me, theright amount to where people sign
up, they actually make a podcast.
And you know it again, you justlive and learn as you go through.

Amazing.
There's so much that we could unpackwith that, but kind of three main points
that I love and, and it's gonna be what Iclip later and share on social media too.
But, um, it's the, thepart about the, the.
Imposter syndrome.
Oh, overcoming that and then thejourney shows style, uh, and then

(12:58):
having good friends, a support systemto kind of help you see those things
that you wouldn't see yourself.

Yeah, I mean, I had another guy that said, Hey,
Dave, I got somebody that wentthrough the school of podcasting.
I got some feedback,and I'm like, perfect.
And he goes, well, the good newsis, uh, everything you need is
in the School of podcasting.
And I'm like, great.
I go, what's the, what's the notes?
What's the bad news?
He's like, everything you needis in the school of podcasting.
'cause everything Ifound, it's overwhelming.

(13:24):
It was just like, and he said,really, people just want you to
go, this is what you need to do.
And I'm like, well, I'd like to go look.
Do you want this microphoneor this one or this one?
And he is like, Nope.
Just tell him what to do.
And I was like, okay.
So I still have kind of.
Three paths, which I probably shouldn't,but it's like, Hey, if you're on a
really tight budget, go this way.
If you got a little budget, go this way.

(13:45):
And if budget is no problem, go this way.
You know?
But, uh, again, you needpeople to tell you the truth.
'cause you know, I just was laughing.
Uh, the church I go to, we've had a logoon our website for about four years that
had a typo in it and nobody caught it.
And you're just tooclose to your own stuff.
And so you need somebody tocome in and go, um, Dave, what?

(14:06):
You have spinach in your teeth.
Oh, dang it.
You know, so,

love that.
Well, and as far as like getting itin front of the right people, what
kind of strategies have you done?
I mean, so you mentioned settingthe price point to one that seemed
to work, but was there a way that,that you initially promoted it?
Was it through the blogging?

GUEST (Dave Jackson): Yeah, through blogging. (14:26):
undefined
I had a newsletter, and then the firstpodcast event was in Ontario, California.
And it was interesting because it wasbrand new and everybody knew everybody.
'cause there were only, youknow, maybe a hundred podcasters.
And it was like an episode of Cheers.
I remember it was in a Holiday Innand we're in the bar and somebody

(14:50):
would walk in and go, Hey, anybodyknow where the podcast thing is?
And we'd be like, this is it.
And they would be like, who are you?
And I remember there was a guy namedCece Chapman that did a music show.
He is like, oh, I'm Cece Chapman.
And the whole bar was like,oh, Cece, what's up buddy?
You know?
So that was, uh, so justright there, networking.

(15:11):
And you know, I always say it's, it's notso much who you know, but who knows you.
And so I always, you know, anytime Ican get in front of people that, uh.
Trying to get exposure.
I went to a thing at the libraryonce and they were talking about SEO.
I'm like, oh, those are people that aretrying to get traffic to their website.
I know a way to get traffic toyour website, start a podcast.

(15:34):
And all I did was at the end they'relike, do you have any questions?
And I said, yeah, hi.
I am Dave Jackson fromthe School of Podcasting.
And then I asked a legitimatequestion, but I said, podcasting.
And I had three people come up at the endof the like, Hey, are you the podcast guy?
And I was like.
You know, so it's, it's reallyfiguring out who your audience is.

(15:54):
And the answer is not everybody, butfigure out who that is, go to where they
are, and then make friends with them.
I remember once again, grayhair here, but I, I found a
forum, so this is pre-Facebook.
It was ex radio DJs.
And I swear I heard like Angels.
It was like, oh.
And I was like, oh, this is my audience.

(16:15):
And I ran in there and I waslike, Hey, I'm Dave Jackson.
I can get you back on the air.
It's a global audience.
Everybody follow me.
Let's go podcasting.
And they're like, 20 minutes.
I was banned.
They're like, kick him out.
Who is this spamming idiot that's, youknow, just come in and buy my stuff.
And I was like, oh yeah,there's a lesson to learn.
Maybe.
Maybe make friends with 'em first and thentell them about what's going on, you know?

(16:36):
So

it's Love that.
Yeah.
Well it's funny.
So I did radio for five years too.
Four or five years.
Nice.
And, uh.
It's so true how many of, how manyof radio DJs just we're kind of, we
love this kind of stuff, but justsometimes, you know, you gotta to
maneuver around and, and make changesto something like podcasting, which
is so much more beneficial these days.

Well, and every, I think every radio guy should have his
own podcast because we know radio Theminute they change the format, you're out.
And when you're trying to find a job andyou say, oh, by the way, I also have a
podcast that have, you know, 500 weeklylisteners, they're like, oh, okay.
So I'm bringing my audience to me.
So that might be a wayto help you get hired.

Well, hey, thanks for everything you've broken down so far.
I think it's a good segue too,to like your books and ROI,
I've got a question that I get.
A lot in this community.
Uh, the question is how can someonestay, stay true to themselves and create
authentic content while also building apodcast that brings in income, especially,

(17:41):
uh, if they don't have an audience yet.
So it's kind of an ROI question.

Yeah.
The, the thing is, youdon't monetize a podcast.
You monetize an audience.
And so when you go, I don't havean audience yet, well then don't
focus on monetization because.
You're just wasting your time.
And so what you should focus onis finding out who is that person.
'cause people bust out thewallet when you solve a problem.

(18:07):
Like, Hey, I've got a headache.
Oh, you have aspirin?
Take my money.
Okay.
I don't know how to fix my car.
You do take my money.
You know, think aboutthe thing, I'm hungry.
Oh, you have food?
Take my money.
Um, and sometimes it's a littleharder, but I've had a bad day at work.
Oh, you can make me laugh.
Take my money.
That's really it.

(18:28):
But when it's just like, oh, I, I talkabout, you know, I interview interesting
people about interesting things.
Okay, and what does thatdo for the audience?
Now it might inspire them andmaybe they need inspired, but
you have to solve a problem orhelp them in some way or another.
Uh, so that's the thing.
So really focus on who is my audience.

(18:49):
Because when you can givethem what they want, then they
start telling their friends.
And that's about 70% of the time how apodcast is grown is via word of mouth.
And so, and nobody likes this number,and I did a lot of research and I just
heard it again on another podcast.
When people start making money,it's around the three year mark

(19:10):
and they're like, wait, it'snot six weeks or six months.
Like, nope, it's three years.
And there's a book calledBeyond Powerful Radio.
She says three years.
It's just one of those where to make like,you know, car payment money, if you're
really, really good and there is thisthing called luck, that comes into it too.
But if you're brand new, thereare ways you can make money.

(19:33):
It's just not a ton likeaffiliate marketing.
I know I did a show, it was funny.
Jillian Michaels is this trainerand there used to be this TV
show called The Biggest Loser.
She quit The Biggest Loser and starteda radio show and they turned that
into a podcast and it was great.
It was Jillian B and Jillian, andthen she must have got a bigger size

(19:54):
check and she went back to The BiggestLoser and everybody was looking for
the Jillian Michaels podcast, exceptthere wasn't one 'cause she was on TV.
Now.
So what did I do?
I made a Jillian Michaels podcastand I said at the very beginning.
I'm not Jillian Michaels, but I love her.
And today we're gonna talk about,you know, 'cause this poor woman
put her name on everything andeverything, had affiliates to it.

(20:16):
And so I remember she came out with anaudible book and every time somebody
signed up at Audible, I'd made 15 bucks.
And this was the very first timeJillian had ever read her own.
I had listened to it, so never talkabout something like, don't recommend
something you didn't just use or eator smell or something, because that
is the definition of selling out.

(20:37):
And I said, it's a really good book andthis is the first time that Jillian's read
her own book and you can get it for freenow by using my audible link and 15 times.
And I got like a fourfigure check on that.
And I was like, okay.
And then I've made the, I was doinga weight loss show for a while and
there was a a tool that I used.
So again, look around your room.

(20:59):
What are you using that maybeyour audience might use?
And I found this app called Chronometer.
And it was way cool and it was cheaperthan MyFitnessPal, which everybody knew.
So when I said, Hey, it's betterand cheaper than MyFitnessPal, and I
think I made a dollar 50 if somebodydownloaded the app and created an
account, but by the end of the month,you know, I had like 300 bucks.

(21:21):
I'm like, well that'sa small card payment.
I'll take that.
And, but it's not a matter oflike, what's the one strategy?
It's how many strategies can I have?
'cause the more hoses that are.
Going into the pool, the,the quicker it fills up.
So I had things like affiliate marketing.
There's always PayPal.
When in doubt you just say, Hey,did you get value from this show?

(21:42):
If you did and feel like givingsome of that value back, go
to my website.com/thanks andthere's your PayPal button.
And the bad news is, that's the good news.
The bad news is maybe 3% of youraudience might actually chip in.
Uh, but that's another stream of income.
And then the best way is consultingand selling your own stuff.

(22:02):
So like there will be places that say,oh, you can make money from day one and
you can, but it's 0 cents a download.
Or if it's $5 per 1000downloads, it's 0.005.
And I said, look, if I sell abook behind me, it's 12 bucks
profit in my pocket, I go.
Or I could get 2,400 downloads.

(22:25):
Which one is easier?
2,400 downloads or selling one book.
So selling your own products and servicesis by far the most profitable thing, and.
When you show up on a regularbasis, whatever your schedule is,
and you deliver content that theygo, oh, that was really good.
And then you, you know, when they,you do that, then you're seen

(22:46):
as, yeah, I, I like that guy.
Hey, she's pretty good.
And when you're consistent with yourschedule, you're seen as reliable.
And then, you know, when.
Your content is good.
And they go, I'm gonna try that thing.
And they did, and it workedwell, now they trust you.
So it's the whole no like, and trust.
And so when you say, Hey, I got a newbook, or I've got a membership, or
I've got a thing, or whatever, youknow, it's a much warmer lead than just

(23:09):
somebody that's never heard of you.
So.
It's, uh, you know, it's, it's not easy.
It's, it's not, it's kind of simple, youknow, solve a problem for them and they'll
give you money, but it, it takes a while.
And again, you don't monetize a podcast.
You monetize an audience, and alot of times we get focused on
the monetization instead of, Ineed to build the audience first.

Wow.
Love that.
Thank you so much for the breakdown.
Seriously, everyone listening,make sure you know, you rewind
that, you clip it, you save it,because that was, that was gold.
That was a masterclass in monetizing,and I love how you put that
monetizing with an audience andnot monetizing the podcast itself.
And just having all theoptions available, right?

(23:54):
Like it's maybe a little strenuous atfirst to set up, but having all the, the
options available for people to supportyou and then being vocal about that
and having a clear problem you solve.
I mean that was, that wasa masterclass breakdown.
So thank you so much for that.

It was funny 'cause in my head I'm like going.
I need to shut up.
I could talk for about another twohours on this, but it's time to
let Parker ask another question.
I was like, okay, that's enough of that.

That's the podcast, uh, way of thinking that
you're thinking is like, yeah.
Having that internal time clock.
Yeah.
That's funny.
Well, and definitely I would encouragepeople to check out your books.
I'll make sure to put those links inthe description and stuff of the show.
But also I wanted to ask you, uh, about.
Pod page and some of the websitestuff that you're working on.

(24:41):
And you mentioned in your breakdowna couple times too, the importance
of people, uh, being able togo to a website to support.
And so what is it that you're doing there?
And maybe do they havean affiliate program?
They do.
I would look into that.

Yeah, you should.
Yeah.
Uh, pod page.com/affiliates iswhere, or I can't remember if
it's affiliate or affiliates, buttry one, one of those will work.
And, um, yeah, so pod page, ifI back up, just a pinch, I ended
up getting a job at Libson.
Why?
Because of my podcast, becauseI'd had, I knew the guys at
Libson, I'd had 'em on my show.

(25:16):
And so when I lost my teachingjob, I said, man, I'd love
to have a job in podcasting.
So I reached out to Rob Walch andI said, Hey, the good news is, or
the bad news, is I lost my job.
The good news is I'm available towork for you and my reputation.
Had been built through my podcast.
So I worked at Lipson for eightyears and then this job at Pod
Page came up and I, I love Lipson,love everybody over there, but this

(25:39):
was just such a better fit for me.
And so yeah, pod page will builda website for you basically from
your feed in about 10 minutes.
You go in and pick thecolor and a couple layouts.
And we don't like, we're not an we.
We integrate with everything.
So like we're not gonna be MailChimpbecause they're MailChimp and we're
not buzzsprout or Captivate or Lipsy,but we integrate with all those people.

(26:02):
We'll, we'll bring in your newsletter andwe will import your videos from YouTube.
And then we have a guestform that you can fill out.
And when people fill it out,when that guest comes on the
show, you just attach it to.
The episode and it goesright into your show notes.
And we have a voicemail systembecause all podcasters want, you
know, engagement from their audience.

(26:23):
So

HOST (Parker Kane): it's just one of Right. (26:23):
undefined
And that's been one of the hardest thingstoo, to, to have podcasting can feel
so lonely and like, you're not, like,you're not talking to the audience.
So that's an awesome feature right there.

Yeah.
And so I just love it because I, it wasfunny, I, uh, the owner, Brendan Mulligan
is the main programmer and the owner.
And he hired me in 2020 as a podcastconsultant and said, Hey, I got this idea.
Do you think this would work?
And I'm like, well, we need a contactpage and about page in our episodes.
And he came back in like aweek and was like, like this.

(26:56):
And I was like, that's amazing.
And so over the years, he's kind ofbuilt pod page the way I recommend to
build a podcast, which is find out whatyour audience wants and give it to 'em.
That's kind of what he's done.
And then, so, uh, last yearhe kind of said, Hey, like, I
got this position over here.
You interested in all?
And I thought about it and madethe jump and been, uh, happy

(27:18):
as a pig in mud ever since.
So it's a, it's a really cool tool.
But the, the thing that, that, uh, youmentioned about having a website, I
had, we're doing a thing right now andI had to reach out to a bunch of people
and say, Hey, can we have a meeting?
And I just needed to contact them.
And some people had websites, buteven that, some of them were like,

(27:40):
oh, slide into my dms on Instagram.
And I'm like, you know,everybody uses email.
You know, not everybody uses Instagramor whatever you're using, or I don't
wanna set up a discovery call with you.
I just want to ask you a quick question.
I don't wanna waste your timeand I don't wanna waste mine.
But then there were people that'dbe like, oh, I can help with that.
And I'm like, great, what's your website?

(28:01):
And they're like, yeah,I don't really have one.
And I go, wait, what?
They're like, no.
Like I, I get most of my work.
I've been lucky.
Uh, I've, I've done most of my work justby referrals, and I'm thinking, if you are
that good, think of how much more businessyou would have if people could find you.
You know?
So, and I'm not talking about a linktree thing because that has zero SEO,

(28:23):
you know, and it doesn't have to be.
This, you know, $10,000 website.
It just needs a place for peopleto contact you a way if you're
doing podcasting, a way to followthe show, you know, maybe a
newsletter or things like that.
And, uh, it's, you know, it, it'sone of those things because what
happens is your show notes are words,which is exactly what Google loves.

(28:47):
So you get found in a search.
People come over, they click on play'cause there's a player there and
Google's like, that's really weird.
Every time I send somebody overto Parker's website, they're
there for like 18 minutes.
Like that must be really good stuff.
So it boosts your SEO.
But if it's a, you know, whatever LinkTree or Lincoln Bio, some sort of tool

(29:08):
like that, that's just a bunch of links.
They come over and they're like, oh,and they click on it and they go away.
And so your website is getting zero SEO.
So.
Uh, I know it's, you know, sometimeswe're doing stuff on a budget, but,
you know, even if, uh, you know, firstof all, go bowling, uh, this weekend,
see how much that runs or go golfing.
Or even if you're like, ah, I justlike to run, running is my hobby.

(29:31):
Okay, great.
How much did you pay for those shoes?
And so many people try to do it onthe cheap and try to do it for free.
And I get that I, I've beenbroke before, so I get that.
But there are times when you're like,no, it's, if you're gonna do this
seriously, it's time to, to get a website.

Right.
It's worth investing inthese, these kinds of things.
And you could spend $3,000 on aprofessional website or you could have
something like this that gets the jobdone that's, you know, more affordable.
And I think, I think it's very beneficial.
I'm so glad you saidwhat you did about SEO.
That's kind of my breadand butter, so to speak.

(30:08):
You know, when I was in a toughtime back up against the wall.
Didn't have money.
You know, I had kind of a, a quickstory real quick, but I had a, a
video go viral in 20 15, 20 16,launched me in a motivational
speaking and touring the country.
Nice.
Speaking and getting paid.
And then when COVID came, it was all done.

(30:29):
All my events stopped and Iwas like, what am I gonna do?
And so I started offering podcastservices because that's what I knew to do.
Yeah.
And knew I could makesome money with that.
So I started finding clients to do theirpodcasts and all of them wanted like.
The, the Instagram reels,the clips, all those things.

(30:49):
But something I found a space in was SEO.
I'm like, Hey, people aregonna Google you though.
And I'm, I'm passionate about writingand doing SEO and keyword optimization
and, uh, helping people set that up andstay consistent with their websites.
Via their podcasts and having blogs andso much content from their podcasts.

(31:11):
So it really is a, a great strategicmove that I think is underrated because
everyone's so taught so much, uh,in the realm of social media only.

Well that, or they'll go, well ai, you
know, chat GBT or perplexity.
And they go, yeah, butwhat are they using?
They're using S se, you know,search results behind the scenes.
I'm like, you still gotta rank higherto, to get into those kind of results.
So yeah.
Absolutely.
SE o's important.

Well, thank you so much for that.
I think we're gonna probably wrap uphere with a few more questions, but one
thing that I'd love is another story.
If you had one Sure.
On maybe a time that.
You just felt like your life changedbecause of podcasting for the better?
Or maybe when you saw that happenin someone else where they, where
their podcast literally transformedthemselves or their businesses.

(31:59):
I know you mentioned, was itJoanne Penn? Uh, Joanna Penn, yeah.
Joanna Penn. Yeah.
That was I love, I loved that.
And I think anything along thoselines would be so inspiring to hear.

Yeah.
I mean, for me, I've been hiredthree times because of my podcast.
I got hired at a college too.
To teach because during the interviewthey're like, what do you do for fun?
I'm like, oh, I play the guitar.
I ride my bike and I podcast.
And they're like, you do podcasting.
And that, I'm pretty surethat's what got me the job.
I got the job at Lipson.
I got hired to be the head of podcastingat the New Media Expo, which at

(32:31):
the time was this huge conference.
You know, so it, it does do that.
I think it's hard to pick one.
The coroner podcast and I can see hisface and I'm totally blanking on his name.
I wanna say Blake, but that's not it.
But anyway, this guy started off, he justwanted to talk to other coroners and it's,
you know, and so he started the show.

(32:52):
And Drake, I'm getting there.
Darren.
Darren, Darren Dak. There we go.
I knew it was coming.
And um, he started that.
And then he got asked tospeak at a couple places.
Then he ended up getting a job as likethe head of something, something in his
state that had to do with coroner stuff.
And then he was like, huh.
And so he started a course onhow, because apparently you have

(33:16):
to keep up with being a coroner.
So he started this thingto keep your credits.
In like the basement of a church orsomething that this church or whatever.
And that led to some like,Hey, this has really taken off.
And again, he just, I justwanna talk about coroner stuff.
And he lucked out.
Like again, sometimes it's just luck.

(33:36):
And he started moving it online in 2019and got done right at the end of 2019.
Well, 20, 20 rolls around.
Hello COVID.
And the fun thing is people stillneed to keep their coroner stuff up.
They can't go anywhere.
And he's, I asked him, 'cause it usedto be, he would tell me how much he was
making and he doesn't do that anymore.

(33:58):
He is like, nah.
It's kind of like, you know, that's,I'm like, okay, he's making, I, I
gotta keep it close to the vest.
So he's a guy that, um, thatwas, you know, just started off.
And I think that's one of thekeys is when you start off just
for fun, there's no pressure.
When you try to monetize too quickly,then you're like, oh, I only got 23

(34:20):
downloads and I'm not making any money.
Where he was just having fun, youknow, talking about dead people.
You know what dead bodies orwhatever you do that industry
death scene investigation.
Yeah.
And so there's that, but you also don'trealize how much you impact your audience.
Uh, one of the thingsthat really blew me away.

(34:44):
Was, I'd been podcasting for, I don'tknow, a couple years, and I get this
email from a guy and he said, Hey,I, I just wanna let you know, uh, my
best friend of 20 years passed away.
Suddenly my job of 20 years wentaway suddenly, and I was about
90% sure I had cancer, and I haddecided that my favorite holiday is

(35:07):
Halloween and I was gonna take my gun.
On Halloween, he goes, but I heardyour show and you said sometimes
having a podcast can give you purpose.
And I thought, I'm gonna start a podcast.
And he goes, and I now credityou with Saving my life.
Because he goes, I went andgot some help, obviously.
And he goes, but I started thispodcast and I'm having a blast.

(35:30):
And it turns out I didn't havecancer and you know, I ended up with
another job, et cetera, et cetera.
He goes, but he goes, I wasready to just end my life.
And I'm like, look, I'm talkingabout bandwidth and microphones
and storytelling, you know?
And this guy comes back with, oh,by the way, you saved my life.
And I was like, wait, what?

(35:50):
And so I was talking to some peopleonce at an event, and I have my buddy
Ken Blanchard, uh, does a show calledSpeak Life, and he's a veteran and.
And he's also a pastor.
He's a brilliant guy.
And he always signs off his show.
He's like, oh, by the way, I love youand there's nothing you can do about it.
And because he's talked about hismilitary background, he's had a bunch

(36:12):
of guys from the military that are inthose kind of situations where they're
just about ready to just end it.
And he is like, look,I'm not trained in that.
He's like, I should probably get some.
So yeah, it can affect you, uh, in so manyways, but can also, it's, it's amazing.
You know, you think you're justtalking to a microphone into the void.
Then you find out later that, youknow, I, I had somebody come to Akron,

(36:35):
Ohio, which is where I'm at, and hesaid, do you remember how you used
to sign off your, your musician show?
And I go, dude, I don't rememberwhat I had for breakfast, let
alone what I said 20 years ago.
I go, well, what did I say?
And he said, you would say, for thoseha who have money, there's therapy
and for the rest of us there's music.
And I was like, I saidthat, that, that's not bad.

(36:58):
He's like, well, I'm now a,a professor at a college.
And he goes, and I start offevery semester with that quote
and I'm like, well, who knew?
You know?
I'm like, thanks man.
That's cool.
So you just don't know who's listeningand you know what's gonna pop up.
And we have a, a saying at theSchool of Podcasting, nobody's
gonna punch you in the face.
So if you start a podcast.

(37:20):
It's not really what youwanted, it's not as successful.
Well, you've actually learned something.
A, you're, you're much better atcreating content than you used to be.
You're probably more confidentand, and you're better at, you
know, just, uh, uh, being yourselfand a little more confident.
So, yeah.
So that's, uh, those are somepeople that have been affected,
both myself and others.

(37:41):
And, uh, and your listeners.

Thank you.
Yeah, you learn a lot.
And thanks so much for, forsharing those impactful stories.
It is wild.
I call those, I like to call those fullcircle moments where, you know, 99,
I was literally telling someone thisearlier today in just a voice memo, but.
Like 99.9% of the time, wedon't get to hear back about it.

(38:04):
Right?
But it doesn't mean it's not happening.
And then those times that you do getto hear back about how you've impacted
someone are very, very special.
And it's what fuels creators andpeople like us to keep going.
Also, yeah, it's encouraging to anyonelistening right now who has a vision
and wants to get started with somethingor improve what they're working on to

(38:25):
know that they're having an impact.
And that's a lot of the time,the reason for all of this.
Sure, money monetization is great,but being able to have that impact,
even if it's kind of unknown.
Is is really sweet.
Another thing I kind of pointout oftentimes is how we, in our
analytic dashboards, we have likes,impressions, comments, but there's

(38:45):
nothing for like lives changedor lives saved or impact made.
And that's, I think, importantto put a spotlight on.

Yeah, reduction of loneliness, you know?
Right.
Because there are people, there's um.
There's a disease and I justknow it ends in spondylitis.
It's a horrible disease.
You're in pain all the timeand it wrecks your back.
Uh, the guy from, uh, Motley Crewhas it, it really jacks up your back.
If, if you google the phrase Ed Sullivan,he was the guy back in the fifties and

(39:15):
sixties that had a TV show, and he'sfamous for introducing the Beatles.
And if you watch the clip, he kindof goes, ladies and gentlemen, the
Beatles and his arm moves, moves withhis back 'cause he can't really pivot.
Well, he had this disease.
I had a guy, I helped him launch itand he said, you cannot put a price
on the fact that you meet other peoplethat are just as miserable as you are.

(39:38):
He goes, which is sad to hear,but the fact that we're all doing
it together, he goes, it's just awhole different ball game that, you
know, we're all kind of each other'scheerleaders and things like that.
So, like you said, it's not always about.
Money and fame and things like that.
Um, there's a whole other thing of, Iknow people that do podcasting, they
call it the, the best $19 therapy ever.

(39:59):
'cause they just wannaget the word out there.
So there's all sorts of reasons tostart, but it, it all has impact.

I love it.
Well, I, I appreciate the breakdownsand my last question to you is what
do you think has been the most specialtakeaway from this episode that
that'll really help the listeners?

I probably, I'm hoping that the spot on imposter
syndrome, because that's reallywhat, it's not the technology or
the budget that stops most people.
It's, it's the thing between our ears.
My, my favorite imposterstory, it's on Netflix.
There's a thing on Garth Brooks, and hewas gonna play Central Park in New York

(40:40):
City, and he's like, I'm a country boy.
Ain't no city folk gonna listen to me.
You know?
And he's convinced thatnobody's gonna show up.
It doesn't matter that theygave him the key to the city.
And here's your quadruple platinum.
And he's the bestselling, doesn'tmatter, all goes right over his head.
And there's a clip where.
He's, uh, his wife says,I, I gotta go out there.

(41:00):
'cause he literally pulled allthe curtains and just, you know,
locked himself in his room.
And she come back and she'slike, uh, Garth, they had
to move the, the barricades.
He was like, ain't nobody here is there.
And his, his tour manager comesin and he goes, Garth, um, there's
uh, 890,000 people out there.
And he's like, what?
And he's like, yeah.
And he goes, you're tellingme there's 890,000 people?

(41:24):
Out there and he goes, no, Garth,I'm saying there was 890,000
people there 20 minutes ago.
He goes, they're moving the, and bythe time he went on it was almost a
million people and the guy was straightup convinced nobody was gonna show up.
So imposter syndrome is, is normal.
So if you're feeling that way again,nobody's gonna punch you in the face.

(41:45):
Just, you know, you're either gonnaend up with a great story about
that time you started a podcast ora great story about the time you.
Started a podcast and it went nowhere.
But you've learned all sorts ofvaluable lessons, but so sure.
Let's hear that.
Beatbox,

my friend.
I, I love that story.
What I was just gonna say, uh, my favoritepart of the episode or where I got the
most value was right next to that whereyou mentioned how not all shows have
to be from an expert standpoint too.
It could be from the journeyand be valuable along the way.
So

yeah.
One other really quick one.
Yeah, if you're thinking aboutdoing it, but you don't want to be
on video, just remember every bookdoesn't need to be a movie, you know?
So a lot of people get turned off by videoand I'm like, you don't have to do video.
I know everybody in that.
Everybody is a company called YouTubethat says you need to start video.
So No, no you don't.

Yeah.
It helps with like if you're,if you're doing the social media
stuff, but that's not a must.
You don't have to do that.
Right.

If you just wanna start off with audio.
Perfectly fine.

Yeah.
And those people probably willalso excel with the writing and
SEO and all the other things.
Yeah.
So, cool.
Well, thank you so much value.
And yeah, I'm gonna do a quick beat box.
Hopefully it doesn't cut out heresince we're doing this virtual,
but, uh, we'll give it a go.
All
right.

(43:19):
Dave Jackson.

GUEST (Dave Jackson): Dude, that's amazing. (43:23):
undefined
Thank you so much.
That's pretty cool.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}How to Monetize a Podcast Without Selling Out — with Dave Jackson