April 19, 2024 • 41 mins
In this Lesson On Commitment, Rich Nichols talks about fighting for equal pay for the US Women's soccer team. Rich shares insights into what it takes to stand up to the entire US Soccer Federation and why women are just people who get things done without any ego involved.
Nichols was the catalyst for the USWNT quest for equal pay and created and executed the strategic media strategy that catapulted the teams push for “equal pay” to the top of international, domestic, and social media coverage and transformed the women on the USWNT into reputational pioneers for social and economic change.
VOICE LESSONS SHOWNOTES: https://voicelessonspodcast.com/2024/04/19/a-lesson-on-commitment-with-rich-nichols/
VOICE LESSONS ON INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/voicelessonspodcast
All Things Being Equal: The Genesis, Costs and Aftermath of the USWNT's Equal Pay Battle
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kim (00:03):
In August 2018, legendary women's soccer goalkeeper Hope
Solo filed a suit against the U.
S.
Soccer Federation for their violationof the Equal Pay Act and Title VII.
What should have been a momentof solidarity, what could have
(00:24):
been a precedent setting victory,Instead, was the beginning of
the end to a perfect storm.
I spoke with pioneering sports lawyerRich Nichols, who is the former
executive director and counsel forthe United States Women's National
Soccer Team, about his new book,All Things Being Equal, and his
(00:47):
role in the women's historic andcourageous quest for equal pay.
It's a story not only about theway women are paid in soccer, but
a wake up call for women and girls.
Reminding us that when it comesto the way our work is valued
in the world, the most powerfulleverage we have in a negotiation
(01:10):
is the way we value ourselves.
Rich (01:14):
This is Rich Nichols and this is a lesson on commitment.
What's
Kim (01:31):
your earliest memory of being creative?
Rich (01:34):
My earliest memory of being creative was when I was
probably seven or eight years old.
I used to spend my Saturdays.
At the public library, I would goto the library and be there all day.
And around eight years old, I startedwriting like short stories and I
would cramp myself up somewhere in ourtenement where we lived and I would
just write, I just write short stories.
(01:55):
Eight years old, Istarted to be creative.
I
Kim (01:56):
love it.
I love it.
And is that when, because teachersrecognized you as smart and you
were teased for being smart.
Rich (02:03):
Yes.
And yeah, about that time.
And they would send us out there.
If you were smart, you'd get, You'llbe seated at the front of the class.
And for me, I was smartand I got picked on a lot.
I had a mouth on me.
That was, that was my defensemechanism and hoping that.
What I say to you would keepyou from trying to beat me
up at the end of the day.
Kim (02:22):
Sometimes
Rich (02:23):
it works.
Sometimes it didn't.
So the teacher wouldlet me leave to go home.
She'd give me a five minute headstart.
She knew these kids weregoing to be chasing me home.
Kim (02:32):
Oh, no, no.
And so you knew that the smart wasgoing to give you opportunities.
Rich (02:38):
I didn't know that was going to give me opportunities or not.
I knew that I liked being smart.
And I like to be recognized forbeing smart, but I did have one,
one challenge where I stuttered.
I was a stutterer and theteachers used to make us read
aloud in class back then.
I'm 69 years old.
I'll be 70 in August.
So back then was in the latesixties, actually, yeah, mid sixties.
(02:59):
And so they would make you readin class and she would always
start in the back of the room.
So I would count and you'dhave to read a paragraph.
So I would count the paragraphs.
To figure out which paragraphI was going to have to read, I
would go through it in my mindover and over and over again.
So by the time she got tome, I could get it out.
And I hated paragraphs that began witha word that began with the letter L.
(03:25):
I just couldn't get it out.
Get it out.
So if, if that happened to be thecase, I would mild it to myself
before she got to me and, and Iwould be sweating and she'd get to
me and I would just hope and praythat I could get out the first word.
If I get out the first word,I was good, but if not, I was
going to have a serious problem.
So yes, I was smart, but Istuttered and bullied and.
(03:47):
But I could run fast and, uh, whichis why I ended up making the U.
S.
track team several years later.
Yeah.
But, but it got me home safe.
Kim (03:54):
It struck me reading the book when I was reading about your
background as a professional athlete.
It struck me that you couldn'thave been more prepared for the
situation that you found yourself in.
But we'll get more into thatfor the many situations that
they, you find yourself in.
They're accumulative.
Your career has been, and life, it seemsto have been, have been cumulative,
(04:15):
which we have the benefit of hindsight.
Now you seem pretty fearless.
You talk about taking onthe soccer federation.
You were fearless and you're,you seem pretty fearless about
being in the eye of a storm.
So what, aside from running home fromthe nasty kids, what prepared you?
(04:35):
I
Rich (04:37):
think where I grew up and the circumstances I grew up in,
my parents were, and my motherworked in a factory for 40 years.
My dad was a, my mother was smart too,but my dad was a really bright guy who,
you know, black man and in the earlyfifties, a veteran from world war two,
not able to pursue his dreams and endedup working three jobs when he was in
(05:00):
the air force, he wanted to fly, butthey wouldn't send him to flight school.
So they sent him to chef's.
So he learned how to cook.
So when he got out, he triedto get a job as a cook.
He couldn't.
So he ended up working in the samefactory with my mother for 18 years.
And then I'll never forget the day hedecided I'm not doing that anymore.
He quit.
My mother was livid,but that's how it was.
And he ended up spending the restof his life working three jobs.
(05:22):
He would cook at two smallsophisticated restaurants.
And then he was a bartender.
And that was it.
So he lived his life in frustration.
So we lived in a very tense community,so you had to be fearless to, to exist.
But I was aware of the fact that Icould never walk around where I lived
looking like I was afraid of anything.
Because then, you'd be prey.
(05:44):
You just couldn't allowyourself to be prey.
So I've always been fearless, eventhough I might have been able to
defend myself, but I was fearless.
Kim (05:51):
You had the Black Panthers takeover at one point as well.
Rich (05:55):
That's right.
Exactly.
That was quite a thing.
Yeah.
You
Kim (05:59):
describe in the book being shot at in the house
and you and your mom hiding.
Rich (06:05):
Yes.
And then the
Kim (06:06):
next morning waking up and seeing gun holes through the
Rich (06:09):
Three, three bullet holes, three slugs in our front door.
Unnerving to say the least.
That's where we lived and that situationwent on for a couple of weeks, where
we were basically in a war zone, wherethe city would come around during the
day and put the street lights back in.
And right after they did that, thePanthers would go around and shoot
the lights out so that it would bedark at night in the neighborhood,
(06:31):
so the police wouldn't come intothe neighborhood and they didn't.
But that one night when thepolice, they were chasing a car.
And I never forget, I can still hearit now, speeding and racing toward
our tenement house that we lived in.
And the car crashed through the fence,ended up in the little backyard.
And then the police shot atthe, at the suspect when he
got out of the car to run.
(06:51):
And that's how the bullet holesended up, ended up in our front door.
But that's what I grew up in anddidn't, I didn't know any different
really, until I went to college.
And I went to Dartmouth, if you canbelieve that, to be transported from
New Bedford, Massachusetts, in the blackcommunity with, you know, a whole lot of
nothing and then dropped off at the backof my dorm by my parents in Hanover, New
(07:13):
Hampshire at Dartmouth in June of 1972was quite a transition to say the least.
Yeah,
Kim (07:21):
now is that where you started to get involved in track and
field because you were a two time?
NCAA Division I AllAmerican, which is amazing.
That's right.
Rich (07:30):
That is correct.
And
Kim (07:32):
you competed internationally as a member of the United States
track and field team as well.
So when did you decide to pursue law?
Rich (07:39):
I did a externship in East Palo Alto in the Ravenswood School District.
And back then, Palo Alto andEast Palo Alto were separated by
a highway, 101, they still are.
But East Palo Alto was theghetto, no question about it.
And it was a different world.
So as a consultant in that summer,they were asking me to help them
resolve a problem they were having.
(08:00):
And the problem was that the richsuburbs around Palo Alto, Atherton,
Menlo Park were annexing themselves.
From the property tax rolls that werebeing utilized to fund education in
East Palo Alto, so they brought meinto consult to figure out how to
resolve the problem, and I figuredout in pretty short order that an
(08:21):
educator, a doctor of education wasnot going to solve that problem.
The problem is going to be solved bya lawyer or a judge in the courts.
And the remedy was going to be handeddown by a judge or a lawyer who knew
nothing about the business of education.
And if I was the superintendentof schools, I was going to have to
implement this ridiculous policyput forth on my plate by someone who
(08:42):
didn't know anything about education.
So that's when I started tothink, maybe I need to be a
lawyer instead of an educator.
Kim (08:48):
Yeah.
And you have represented NFL Hallof Famer wide receiver, James.
Lofton, Olympic champions, Edwin Moses,Marion Jones, which is incredible.
And then the reason that we're heretoday to speak about your book, but
hope solo and the women's soccer team.
(09:12):
So tell me.
A little bit about how you foundyourself the representative
of that team and then what thestory of the book about is about
Rich (09:25):
in December of 2012 December 13th.
In fact, I'm a dates guy.
I remember dates and times.
I got a call from an associate of mine.
His name was Andre.
He was Hope Solo and her husband,Jeremy Stevens, financial advisor.
And I'd known Andre for years.
He would come to the sports lawyersassociation conference every year.
And that's where I met him.
So he called me and said, Hey,Rich, I represent Hope Solo.
(09:45):
And the team is in the midst ofnegotiating their collective bargaining
agreement with the U S soccer.
Hope is the leader of the team.
And she's very upset because theircurrent counsel doesn't agree with their
salary demands and refusing to taketheir salary demands back to the U.
S.
Soccer Federation.
So she asked me if I knew of a lawyerwho was tough and strong and smart,
(10:07):
who would be willing to work withus to get them what they wanted.
And I told her about you.
And I said, okay, appreciate that.
And would you be willing to talk to her?
I said, yeah, sure.
I set up the call.
He said, well, I've gother on the line right now.
So you patched hope in, I had nevertalked to hope before I knew she
was, but I'd never talked to her.
The only time I had any exposureto hope solo was back in 2008.
(10:30):
She did an interview withPierce Morgan on CNN.
And after hope had basically Had ariff with her coach, Greg Ryan, who had
pulled her out of a, I guess it was aWorld Cup game and they ended up losing
the game four to nothing and hope madethe bold comments afterwards that if
she had been in the game, they wouldn'thave lost the game that kind of thing.
(10:50):
So I remember watching herand I thought, wow, she's
really smart and brave.
A little rough around the edges,but wow, I really respect her
honesty and her willingness tocome out and tell it like it is.
So when I got her on the phone, Ihear this very soft voice and I'm
thinking, is this really Hope Solo?
It's not the Hope Solo.
So
Kim (11:09):
it's interviewing.
Rich (11:11):
Yeah, but it was her and she explained the situation and she said,
would you be willing to help us rich?
I said, sure.
Yeah, absolutely.
I said, what's the next step?
She said, are you willing to get on aconference call tomorrow with the team?
Sure.
So I did.
They talked me through the situation.
Would you be willing to cometo Boca Raton the next day
and meet with us in person?
I did.
And at the time I hada law partner of mine.
(11:34):
Who went with me, and we listenedto them, and we gave them a little
presentation on what we thought we woulddo, or they should do, and how we could
help them, and when we left the meeting,we were on the way to the airport, and
the team took a vote to either replacetheir current counselor or hire, at
the time it was going to be two of us,and they voted 9 to 9, it was a tie,
and so Hope called me on the way to theairport, and she says 9 to 9, I'm really
(11:57):
upset, blah, we're going to take anothervote, and I'll call you back, so she
called me back the next morning, Theyhad taken another vote and it was 10
to eight to keep their current council.
So I said, Hey, not a problem.
I'm, I'm around.
If you want to pass somethingby me, just give me a call and
I'm willing to talk to you.
So she said, okay, fine.
So that was in December of 2012.
(12:19):
13 months later, in January of 2014,I got a call from Hope and she told
me, Hey Rich, it's been a year.
We signed this MOU, thismemorandum of understanding, which
was basically an agreement toagree it really wasn't the CBA.
But we're unhappy.
U.
S.
Soccer hasn't lived up totheir obligations as usual.
Would you be willing to meetwith us and talk with us?
(12:41):
So I met with the team, talkedwith them again, told them what
I thought they needed to do.
And I told them, I said, look, youhave to understand that your life as
a professional athlete is very short.
And you have to maximizeyour potential to earn money.
And the only way you'regoing to do it is to be in
control of your circumstance.
And you just need to take control.
Period.
And if you bring me on,I can help you do that.
(13:03):
So they liked it and said theywere going to do it, but months
went by, maybe six months went bybefore I heard from them again.
So I heard from themagain in June of 2014.
Yes.
They want to bring me on, but they,Abby Wambach and Christie Rampone,
who were the captains of the team atthe time, wanted to talk to me again.
So I had a call with, actually itended up only being Abby Wambach
who talked with me in February.
(13:25):
We had a 30 minute conversationand they decided, okay.
We really like you.
We're going to sign youup, but they didn't.
So now we get to September of 2014.
Oh
Kim (13:35):
my God,
Rich (13:37):
called me and said, Would you be willing to fly to Rochester,
New York and meet with us again.
So be the third time.
And, and I'm sorry but withinthe team is kind of decisive
blah blah blah I said no problem.
So I went to Rochester, New York.
And I met with themagain for the third time.
And that was the time when theytook a vote and decided, okay,
I'm going to bring Rich on anddismiss our previous counsel.
(13:57):
What I didn't know at the time when Imet with them that day was that they
had just met with the previous counseland, and Sunil Gulati, the president
of US soccer, and the team had decidedthat their counsel and Sunil over
a 14 year period of time had becomebasically too chummy and too friendly.
To the extent that the team didn'tfeel like his name was John that
(14:19):
John was representing their interestswasn't advocating for them as as
vociferously as he could or shouldthose two Sunil and John had met with
the team just before they met with meI didn't know that that they really
wanted me because they felt thatI would really You know, represent
Kim (14:33):
them.
Rich (14:34):
Yeah,
Kim (14:34):
I write in the book about the gentleman's agreements
that they had that weren't evencontractual about the fact that
the women had no maternity leave.
They were flying in coach to games.
The soccer fields weren't checked.
There was no post career benefit at all.
There's no 401k.
(14:55):
There's no nothing.
And that the men's teamranked 24th in the world.
Versus the women's team rankednumber one, right, in the world,
netting 5 million in ticket salesand the men losing 1 million and
the women aren't being paid equally.
(15:16):
So, you know, you, there are so manythings you took into consideration
here and so many tactics I thoughtwere interesting in your book.
But one of the first ones, andit sounds like, again, given this
long Trajectory to being hired wascreating unity among the team members.
(15:37):
And then teaching them toleverage the power of no.
Rich (15:42):
Yes, absolutely.
Kim (15:44):
So I'm curious, how do you, how were you able to build unity for them?
And, and when they're understandablytheir income is at stake at
the same token, it's like thediscrepancies are so egregious.
So it seems to me like, whywouldn't you get on board that,
that bandwagon, but I'm not there.
(16:04):
I'm not living in that moment.
So I don't know.
Rich (16:07):
I think a few things that happened to the team over the years.
Since the 1999 team won the WorldCup, and that's really when the battle
for equal pay began was back then,and they got tremendous pushback
from the Federation, even back then.
But I think there was always thismentality that if we continue
to win, and we continue to dowell, the Federation will come
(16:29):
around and treat us fairly.
They really will.
We believe that they will.
Why wouldn't they?
How come they're treating us this way?
It can't last.
So by the time I got there in thatlast meeting in September of 2014,
before they signed me up, I toldthem, I said, look, if you bring me
on, I'm only as powerful as the powerthat you give me and the power that
(16:51):
you can give me that you're going tohave to give me in order for me to get
you what you need and want is unity.
There's 24 of you, it'sgot to be 24 to zip.
The votes always gotto be 24 to nothing.
Otherwise.
I don't have the power.
Kim (17:05):
Yeah.
There can't
Rich (17:05):
be any dissenters at all, ever, in all this stuff that we're
going to try to do, because we'regoing to be pushing boulders aside.
So there can't be a crack in the armor.
You can't give U.
S.
soccer any notion that there'sweakness or vulnerability.
And what we're trying to do anda 23 to one vote on something
is exactly that vulnerability.
(17:26):
No unity.
Unity is power.
Power will get you leverage.
Leverage will help us get what we want.
Period.
It's just that simple.
So they understood that.
But it took the first year.
It took the year 2015.
Certainly the first six months of 2015for them to understand the power of no.
When I took over in January2015, I began saying no to the
(17:50):
Federation almost immediately.
The first sponsorship deal theycame to us with was the FIFA
2016 video game, EA Sports.
And the general counsel said, Hey,Rich, this is a great opportunity.
EA Sports wants to featurethe women's team in FIFA 2016.
It's going to be a renewalof the men's FIFA 2012 game.
(18:14):
I said, Hey, it sounds great.
How much are they going to pay the team?
Oh, nothing.
Kim (18:19):
Steering!
Zero.
I was, I, my head nearly explodedwhen I read that in the book.
I was like, what are you talking about?
That's the license of their image.
And if, as a producer in entertainment,that's a whole, that's a whole
business model in and of itself.
Forget the sports, right?
The licensing of the image, butthat they would think they could
(18:39):
get away with paying nothing.
Rich (18:41):
I said to her, her name was Lisa Levine, general counsel, Lisa, nothing?
Blink.
What are you talking about?
Oh, this is a great opportunity.
It's a great awareness andmarketing opportunity for the team.
And I said a great aware, this team,they're perennial Olympic champions.
They've won, at the time,it was two World Cups.
They don't need anyawareness or visibility.
(19:03):
They already are.
It's the men's team thatneeds that kind of help.
We don't need that.
And we're not doing it for nothing.
You have to.
No, we don't have to do anything.
We don't have to do anything.
And we're not doing it for nothing.
Oh, but we've alreadynegotiated the deal.
We're fired down the line.
The storyboards are already marked up.
Uh, one of the women on theteam are going to be featured
(19:23):
on the cover of the game.
I said, I don't care.
We're not doing it for nothing.
I'll take it back to the team.
I have to and see what they say, but I'mtelling you what they're going to say.
They're not doing it for nothing.
And that's what the team said.
We're not doing it for nothing.
So when the federation realizedthat these women were not going
to show up, but the federationhad already contractually agreed
(19:46):
with EA sports that the womenwould be available to participate.
They realized federationrealized they were going to
have to come up with something.
So Lisa Levine called me backone day and she said, rich.
Just be straight with you.
You've already made the commitments.
For the women to participate inthis game, we're kind of stuck.
So, I'm basically Too bad.
Kim (20:06):
Too bad for you.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Too bad you're stuck.
Anyway, sorry.
We're
Rich (20:11):
basically, we're all family here.
The whole family discussion.
So, we can offer you 20, 000.
We can offer the team 20, 000.
One time payment.
Total.
Kim (20:23):
Total for 24 women.
Rich (20:24):
Yeah.
The men are onlygetting 120, 000 a year.
It's a renewal of their deal beforewhere they got 120, 000 a year.
It's a good faith gestureon the Federation's part.
We understand where you're coming from.
Blah, blah, blah.
So I said, let me takeit back to the team.
So I took it back to the teamand I said, look, let's do it.
They understand now that, or Ithought they did, that we're not
(20:45):
taking no money to do anything.
So this would be 20, 000 more thanwe had, but they got the message.
They've gotten the message.
So the team agreed.
So between January of 2015 and Aprilof 2015, the Federation presented three
or four more deals like that to us,which paid little to no money at all.
(21:05):
And we rejected them all.
And that kind of set the stage.
For going to the World Cup, winningthe World Cup, and then having real
leverage to get what the women wanted.
The first opportunity to do that wasI wrote about it in the book when
the team won the World Cup and twocaptains of the team, Christy Rampolla
(21:26):
and Abby Wambach, asked, literallyasked the president of the federation
for the week, the next weekend off.
Off,
Kim (21:33):
yeah.
Rich (21:34):
And it was the first weekend after the World Cup, after a 30
day grueling World Cup competition.
The team was, they were mentallyand physically fatigued.
They just wanted a weekend off and theywere told pretty point blank, no, we've
already marketed the team for the NWSLgames this weekend, they're all sold out
based upon the fact that national teamworld cup champion players are going
(21:56):
to play and no, you're going to play.
So they tried, they went back tohim the next day and he basically
said no and then I'm going to havea call with the entire team and
make sure you all understand you'reall going to play this weekend.
So that's when they finallycalled me and said, this is what's
transpired over the last two days.
I said, well, a couple of things.
One.
You're not having any call with theFederation tomorrow night, which
(22:16):
was going to be a Wednesday night.
I'll have the call.
And if you don't want toplay this weekend, you're
not playing this weekend.
Period.
End of story.
Kim (22:24):
What's so interesting, again, one of those other tactics, you
talk about words being weapons.
No, again, now that started youngfor you, but law, the use of the law.
And so what struck me is, again,these off the record gentleman's
agreements, the fact that they, from2012 onward, did not have a formal
contract that they're operating ona memorandum that doesn't include,
(22:49):
again, any kind of licensing terms,any kind of benefits, basic benefits.
And then the bringing in.
the Equal Pay Act.
You made a big nationalmorning show announcement.
So tell me a little bit about thechoice to go to that legislation.
Rich (23:12):
So we pushed back in, in July after the World Cup and
basically told the Federation,we're not playing this weekend.
And they heard us.
And we negotiated a compromise where theplayers would make personal appearances
at those NWSL games that weekend afterthe World Cup final, but they wouldn't
play in exchange for some money.
So we got some money.
(23:33):
They only had to make appearancesand didn't have to play.
That's what they wanted to do.
So with that, we hada victory with that.
That was the first time we used theWorld Cup championship leverage.
to get what the players wanted.
So from that point forward, I knew thatwe had the leverage required to pursue
(23:55):
this equal pay, uh, opportunity in thenext collective bargaining negotiation.
Kim (24:00):
You call it a nuclear bomb too.
You call it and strategically,it was a nuclear bomb for you.
Rich (24:05):
Yeah, it was.
It was because I don't think theywere expecting it and they weren't
expecting it To come from a team thatnow had some leverage to really push
the issue, to get what they want.
So that's what we didin January of 2016.
What I did was in August, a monthafter the world cup victory, a month
after we pushed back and didn't playthose NWSL games, I met with, uh, Sunil
(24:28):
Gulati, the president of the federation.
I said, Hey, Sunil, look, thatMOU has no marketing provisions.
There's no group licensing provisions.
There are no provisionsin it that allow.
Individual players to market themselvesand their brand to make money off of
their World Cup victory and probablythe next year's Olympic victory.
Why don't we negotiate the newcollective bargaining agreement?
(24:49):
Start doing it now so that it can befinished before the Olympics in 2016
so the team and the women can havethe benefit of being able to leverage
their celebrity and their victoriesinto competent money for them.
So he agreed to that, whichI was surprised about.
This is August of 2015.
He agreed to it.
But then they dragged their feet andthey didn't have the preliminary first
(25:09):
meeting with us about CBA negotiationsuntil November 30th of 2015.
So we had that initial meeting.
We were very transparent aboutwhat we were going to ask for.
Then we spent the month of December, theteam, putting together the collective
bargaining agreement proposal.
And then we presented it to theFederation in January, early January of
2016 and started physical negotiations.
(25:33):
For that deal, which was for equalpay and a bunch of other things,
group licensing, health benefits,maternity leave, 401k, catastrophic
insurance, all kinds of thingsthat they should have had already.
So that that's how we got tothe negotiation point of a CBA
proposal that had equal pay asthe driving force of the proposal.
(25:53):
And the lesson here is commitment.
Be committed.
100%.
Commitment is, it's binary.
You're either committed or you're not.
You can't be 80 percent committed,60 percent committed, and expect to
achieve your objectives and goals.
You got to be 100 percent committed.
And this team, US NationalWomen's Soccer Team, at the
(26:15):
beginning of the equal pay push,they were 100 percent committed.
But they lost two things.
They lost unity.
That means they lost leverage, andthen they lost their commitment,
their 100 percent commitment to equalpay, and they did not get equal pay.
That system they agreed to, the payto play system, it's not equal pay.
It's the same compensationsystem that's paying the men's
(26:38):
team, but it's not equal pay.
And as always, the devil is in thedetails, especially with the U.
S.
Soccer Federation.
So, therefore, you've gotto maintain your commitment.
This team was in the red zone, 20 yardsfrom scoring the equal pay touchdown,
but they lost their commitment.
And I understand it.
I totally understandthe human condition.
(26:58):
Survival is a very strong incentive.
They chose survival.
I get it, but you gotta bea hundred percent committed.
That's the lesson.
If you commit, maintain the commitment,it's going to be stormy, it's going
to be hard, it's going to be rocky,you're going to feel pain, you're
going to get slimed, you're goingto get all this, but if you maintain
(27:22):
your commitment, you're going toget to the other end and you're
going to get the gold ring, period.
Kim (27:34):
What's your experience in the way that men and women use power?
Rich (27:38):
A lot of women are afraid to exercise their power.
As the team we were finalizingthe collective bargaining
proposal with Equal Pay.
And I had the numbers in therewith regard to what equal pay would
be, one of the players said, Rich,are we asking for too much money?
And I thought about that and I thought,wow, there's still this prevailing
view that we don't deserve what weshould have in terms of compensation.
(28:04):
And we're asking for it.
I thought, we're notasking for anything.
We're demanding it.
Because you deserve it andyou should get this money.
So there's just, I don't know why, butI've been drawn to strong women like
Marion Jones and Hope Solo and otherswho are in your face demanding it.
(28:27):
We want it.
We're going to get it.
We deserve it.
It's mine.
I'm taking it.
And for whatever reason, somewomen are afraid to do that.
Kim (28:37):
I think it comes with the label, right?
It comes, you talk about anaggressive negotiation style, but
if women are labeled aggressive,then it's the kiss of death.
And we could be speakingquietly and firmly.
Rich (28:50):
Yes.
Kim (28:51):
And it's the kiss of death.
Rich (28:52):
Yeah, no, you're right.
You're right about that.
And men know that.
And what really bothered meabout this negotiation is.
That the Federation had three womenon the other side of the table.
Kim (29:04):
And that was disgusting to me.
Rich (29:07):
And they were the primary mouthpieces during the negotiations.
Against the women's team forequal pay, it blew my mind.
Donna Shalala, Catherine Rumler,and the general counsel Lisa Levine.
To this day, I can't,I don't understand it.
Kim (29:22):
The story, I was like, how could you be a woman on the other,
but I understand, I do understandhow they do it because there are
women so afraid and entrenched inthe system and afraid to speak out.
The point of our podcast is toencourage women to speak out.
to use their voices.
I think what's interestingthough is, again, you're a black
man, you have a Native Americanmom, so you identify as black.
(29:48):
Is that correct?
Yeah.
In America,
Rich (29:49):
if you're, in America, if your dad's black, you're black.
I've always identified as black.
Kim (29:53):
Yeah.
So, um, I think you talked about, evenwhen you were making the announcements
for Equal Pay, about the optics,not wanting the optics of being
a black lawyer with white women.
And that was really confusing tome, because I was, I'm so glad
you were in the 60 Minutes piece,but I am, I think that's powerful.
(30:13):
Personally, I feel that'sa powerful statement.
Rich (30:16):
So that's a reality that, that black lawyers, black professionals
have to accept and live with.
It's just a reality for us thatwhatever we do is summarily a discount.
And what I worried about with that wasI didn't want, because it was a bold
(30:36):
move, bold move, Serious nuclear bomb.
You've got five white, highprofile female players on
the World Cup champion U.
S.
women's national soccer team suing theiremployer for equal pay in violation
of Title VII wage discrimination.
At the EEOC that is never happenedbefore groundbreaking revolutionary
(31:01):
is setting a stage for other womenin the workplace to maybe do the
same thing to have the courage andthe bravery to do the same thing.
And I worried that if it was me.
Sitting on the set withthem on the today show.
A black lawyer putting forththis bold move that it would be
(31:24):
discounted as something that I wasdoing for my benefit and not for
the benefit of the team, and itwouldn't have been taken seriously.
And I sit here convinced todaythat it wouldn't have been.
It would have beendiscounted and dismissed.
But if Jeff,
Kim (31:41):
yeah, it just makes perfect sense to me.
See it for me, it makes perfect sensethat you would understand it and that
you would actually hear them in a waythat again, they had not been heard.
Rich (31:55):
Exactly.
And to a certain extent, evenduring the across the table
negotiations, I felt that I wasn'tnecessarily being taken seriously.
And one of the lawyers on theother side consistently rolled
his eyes at me whenever I talked.
And he did it to me threetimes in the first session.
The fourth time I leaned acrossthe table, I said, man, if you roll
(32:15):
your eyes at me again, it'd be thelast time you roll your eyes at me.
But it was a sign of disrespect.
It
Kim (32:21):
was a sign
Rich (32:22):
of, Oh, what are you talking about?
You're just a black lawyer.
You don't know whatyou're talking about.
Blah, blah, blah.
That's how I interpreted it.
And that's how he meant it.
There's no question in my mind about it.
You have to be cognizant of that.
You have to take action based on that.
It can't be about you.
And that's why it's funny.
I didn't tell Jeff, Jeffrey Kesslerthat he was going to sit on the
set until 20 minutes before.
(32:42):
And he's like, why not you?
I said, trust me.
Just go out there with him.
One, he's Jeffrey Kessler.
He's the preeminent sportslawyer in the world.
Tom Brady's lawyer, home nine yards.
He's going to be taken very seriously.
And he was, it was.
Kim (32:56):
You talked about the eye of the storm and some of the things
that you mentioned, like that itwas the perfect storm, that so
many things were the perfect storm.
And we're seeing it againright now with the WNBA.
Stuff as well playing out intuitionis something you mentioned
desire something you mentioned.
Those seem like veryfeminine leadership.
And I'm curious, we talked about power.
(33:19):
Do you think women lead differently?
And if so, how?
Rich (33:24):
Yeah, I think women do lead differently.
And when they decide to take thelead, they're very good at it.
Very good at it.
In fact, I prefer working with womenbecause women are very directed.
They know what their objective is.
Ego doesn't get in the way men.
Ego is always the firstthing and women execute.
(33:44):
They get it done.
That's how my mother was, youknow, she's passively aggressive.
You know, we had nothing but shemade sure that what we did have,
we had, and we had it all the time,notwithstanding the, the obstacles.
That way in her way, sheexecuted, she got it done.
I didn't realize that I was absorbingthat at the time, but as I look back
on it, that's what I saw in my mom whohad little to nothing, but herself,
(34:08):
her intuition, her strength, herability to make decisions and her
ability to control the household.
My mother controlled our household.
So once a woman decides that she'sgoing to lead beware, because
she's not given up and men don'tknow how to deal with that.
Kim (34:24):
The pay checks, fairness act.
Which expands on provisions in theEqual Pay Act, has, and that makes
it illegal for employers to makemen and women unequal ages for
performing the same work, has beenintroduced 13 times, 13 times over two
decades, and it still has not passed.
(34:46):
So what do you think we need to doif we can make this whole lesson
that you've learned actionable?
What do we think we needto do to tip the balance?
You
Rich (34:55):
needed Hillary Clinton to be the President of the United States.
That's what it boils down to,and that's why she's not the
president of the United States,because the men, the Republicans,
pulled out all stops to make surethat she didn't assume that role.
And unfortunately, womendidn't vote for her either.
53 percent of the suburbanwomen voted for Donald Trump.
Kim (35:16):
They abandoned ship.
Yeah.
Rich (35:18):
And we're still looking at that probability today as we speak.
Kim (35:23):
Oh yeah.
We're seeing it with abortion.
We're seeing it in so many areasthat women, again, this It's fear,
this pervasive cultural discreditingof our value, our belief that
we don't deserve to be paid.
We're winning the world cup.
We're winning the Olympicsand we still don't.
Is it too much?
(35:43):
Am I being paid too much?
Really?
Rich (35:45):
I think men single out women like Hope Solo and others
who are strong and forceful andin your face and eliminate them.
And that's the message thatthey're sending to the rest.
Of the world.
If you get out there and you putyour career and your life on the
line, we're going to take it.
We're going to take it.
That's what's going to happen to you.
And that's why theydetermined, that's why the U.
S.
Soccer Federation firedHope in August of 2016.
(36:08):
They claimed it was becauseshe called the Swedes cowards.
That wasn't the case.
How do I know it wasn't the case?
Because the coach, Jill Ellis, and, andSunil Gulati flew back from Rio with
Hope and told her not to worry about it.
That was like on the13th or 14th of August.
And then on August 24th, she'sfired, which just so happened that
(36:29):
it was right about that time when60 Minutes knocked on their door, U.
S.
Soccer, and they realized that, wow,60 Minutes is doing an investigation.
So now we have to cut off the head ofthe leader of the, we have to cut off
the head of the snake of this, theperson who's the most forceful on the U.
S.
women's soccer team for equalpay, and that's Hope Solo.
And if we fire Hope Solo, thegreatest of all time goalkeeper,
(36:54):
the reason why we've got WorldCup and Olympic victories.
We'll send a message to therest of the team that if she
can be fired, so can you.
So you better get offof this equal pay trip.
As soon as you possibly can,
Kim (37:06):
and that's what happened.
It seems so obvious to me, you'redoing the same job, of course
you should get paid the same.
And again, the dollars, thereare significant dollars, it's
not like they would be brokeif they gave somebody a raise.
So what do you think it's about?
Rich (37:22):
It's about, I heard them say it, the men that run the federation
do not believe that the level ofcompetition In the women's league
and women's soccer is the same asthe level of competition for the men.
So they believe that if you arecompeting in an inferior environment,
(37:47):
an environment that's inferior tothe men's competitive environment.
You don't deserve to bepaid what the men get paid.
That's what they said.
They had the temerity toactually vocalize that.
So how do I interpret that?
Inherently, they believethat women are inferior.
Kim (38:05):
Yes, and that actually makes total sense when you say that
because inferior playing conditions,inferior pay, just as a reflection
of their internal value system.
Rich (38:17):
And what I heard consistently, you women should be happy to be
here playing and getting paid.
We, the United States SoccerFederation, we have invested more
money in your team than any otherfederation around the world.
Be happy, shut up and play.
Well, they have to invest
Kim (38:35):
in that team because it's the only one they have that's winning.
So they have to do it.
That's not the logic.
I understand.
That's not
Rich (38:41):
the logic at all.
That's not their mindset.
Their logic, in my view, havingbeen with them and listened
to the Federation, they wouldrather not have them, the U.
S.
Women's National Soccer Team.
Because their focus is the men'steam and being a feeder system
for the MLS and the Pro Leagues.
That's all they care about.
They don't care about the women.
That's They still don't.
(39:03):
They still don't.
And still don't provide women respect.
Kim (39:06):
Why is it that you like to represent women?
Why are you drawn to the stories and tothe support and to be an ally of women?
What do you think that is?
Rich (39:18):
Because me, I believe that That women are stronger, have
stronger constitutions than men.
Women, when women are committedto something, it gets done.
Women do the work.
Kim (39:37):
What is your wish for every woman?
Rich (39:40):
That women take stock.
And don't listen to all this noiseout here that's constantly telling
you, either verbally, overtly,covertly, that you are a woman.
aren't worth it.
Forget all that.
You're more than worth it.
You're stronger than the restof these clowns out here.
(40:00):
Just focus on you, your objectives,and get it done, notwithstanding
all the obstacles that men aregoing to put out there for you.
Period.
Just keep going and you'll get there.
It's going to be hard,but you got to keep going.
Otherwise, you're not going tobe in control of your destiny.
But you got what it takes,it's in there and the men know
(40:22):
it and they're afraid of you.
Force them to face theirfears and their fear is you.
Force them to face it.
Kim (40:31):
Be visible.
Use your voice.
Every other woman needs you to lead.
Voice Lessons is co produced,written, and spoken by me.
(40:55):
Kim Cutable.
It's also co produced andedited by Sergio Miranda.
You can find past episodes, shownotes, and the cool stuff our guests
recommend at voicelessonspodcast.
com.
In August 2018, legendary women's soccer goalkeeper Hope
Solo filed a suit against the U.
S.
Soccer Federation for their violationof the Equal Pay Act and Title VII.
What should have been a momentof solidarity, what could have
(00:24):
been a precedent setting victory,Instead, was the beginning of
the end to a perfect storm.
I spoke with pioneering sports lawyerRich Nichols, who is the former
executive director and counsel forthe United States Women's National
Soccer Team, about his new book,All Things Being Equal, and his
(00:47):
role in the women's historic andcourageous quest for equal pay.
It's a story not only about theway women are paid in soccer, but
a wake up call for women and girls.
Reminding us that when it comesto the way our work is valued
in the world, the most powerfulleverage we have in a negotiation
(01:10):
is the way we value ourselves.
Rich (01:14):
This is Rich Nichols and this is a lesson on commitment.
What's
Kim (01:31):
your earliest memory of being creative?
Rich (01:34):
My earliest memory of being creative was when I was
probably seven or eight years old.
I used to spend my Saturdays.
At the public library, I would goto the library and be there all day.
And around eight years old, I startedwriting like short stories and I
would cramp myself up somewhere in ourtenement where we lived and I would
just write, I just write short stories.
(01:55):
Eight years old, Istarted to be creative.
I
Kim (01:56):
love it.
I love it.
And is that when, because teachersrecognized you as smart and you
were teased for being smart.
Rich (02:03):
Yes.
And yeah, about that time.
And they would send us out there.
If you were smart, you'd get, You'llbe seated at the front of the class.
And for me, I was smartand I got picked on a lot.
I had a mouth on me.
That was, that was my defensemechanism and hoping that.
What I say to you would keepyou from trying to beat me
up at the end of the day.
Kim (02:22):
Sometimes
Rich (02:23):
it works.
Sometimes it didn't.
So the teacher wouldlet me leave to go home.
She'd give me a five minute headstart.
She knew these kids weregoing to be chasing me home.
Kim (02:32):
Oh, no, no.
And so you knew that the smart wasgoing to give you opportunities.
Rich (02:38):
I didn't know that was going to give me opportunities or not.
I knew that I liked being smart.
And I like to be recognized forbeing smart, but I did have one,
one challenge where I stuttered.
I was a stutterer and theteachers used to make us read
aloud in class back then.
I'm 69 years old.
I'll be 70 in August.
So back then was in the latesixties, actually, yeah, mid sixties.
(02:59):
And so they would make you readin class and she would always
start in the back of the room.
So I would count and you'dhave to read a paragraph.
So I would count the paragraphs.
To figure out which paragraphI was going to have to read, I
would go through it in my mindover and over and over again.
So by the time she got tome, I could get it out.
And I hated paragraphs that began witha word that began with the letter L.
(03:25):
I just couldn't get it out.
Get it out.
So if, if that happened to be thecase, I would mild it to myself
before she got to me and, and Iwould be sweating and she'd get to
me and I would just hope and praythat I could get out the first word.
If I get out the first word,I was good, but if not, I was
going to have a serious problem.
So yes, I was smart, but Istuttered and bullied and.
(03:47):
But I could run fast and, uh, whichis why I ended up making the U.
S.
track team several years later.
Yeah.
But, but it got me home safe.
Kim (03:54):
It struck me reading the book when I was reading about your
background as a professional athlete.
It struck me that you couldn'thave been more prepared for the
situation that you found yourself in.
But we'll get more into thatfor the many situations that
they, you find yourself in.
They're accumulative.
Your career has been, and life, it seemsto have been, have been cumulative,
(04:15):
which we have the benefit of hindsight.
Now you seem pretty fearless.
You talk about taking onthe soccer federation.
You were fearless and you're,you seem pretty fearless about
being in the eye of a storm.
So what, aside from running home fromthe nasty kids, what prepared you?
(04:35):
I
Rich (04:37):
think where I grew up and the circumstances I grew up in,
my parents were, and my motherworked in a factory for 40 years.
My dad was a, my mother was smart too,but my dad was a really bright guy who,
you know, black man and in the earlyfifties, a veteran from world war two,
not able to pursue his dreams and endedup working three jobs when he was in
(05:00):
the air force, he wanted to fly, butthey wouldn't send him to flight school.
So they sent him to chef's.
So he learned how to cook.
So when he got out, he triedto get a job as a cook.
He couldn't.
So he ended up working in the samefactory with my mother for 18 years.
And then I'll never forget the day hedecided I'm not doing that anymore.
He quit.
My mother was livid,but that's how it was.
And he ended up spending the restof his life working three jobs.
(05:22):
He would cook at two smallsophisticated restaurants.
And then he was a bartender.
And that was it.
So he lived his life in frustration.
So we lived in a very tense community,so you had to be fearless to, to exist.
But I was aware of the fact that Icould never walk around where I lived
looking like I was afraid of anything.
Because then, you'd be prey.
(05:44):
You just couldn't allowyourself to be prey.
So I've always been fearless, eventhough I might have been able to
defend myself, but I was fearless.
Kim (05:51):
You had the Black Panthers takeover at one point as well.
Rich (05:55):
That's right.
Exactly.
That was quite a thing.
Yeah.
You
Kim (05:59):
describe in the book being shot at in the house
and you and your mom hiding.
Rich (06:05):
Yes.
And then the
Kim (06:06):
next morning waking up and seeing gun holes through the
Rich (06:09):
Three, three bullet holes, three slugs in our front door.
Unnerving to say the least.
That's where we lived and that situationwent on for a couple of weeks, where
we were basically in a war zone, wherethe city would come around during the
day and put the street lights back in.
And right after they did that, thePanthers would go around and shoot
the lights out so that it would bedark at night in the neighborhood,
(06:31):
so the police wouldn't come intothe neighborhood and they didn't.
But that one night when thepolice, they were chasing a car.
And I never forget, I can still hearit now, speeding and racing toward
our tenement house that we lived in.
And the car crashed through the fence,ended up in the little backyard.
And then the police shot atthe, at the suspect when he
got out of the car to run.
(06:51):
And that's how the bullet holesended up, ended up in our front door.
But that's what I grew up in anddidn't, I didn't know any different
really, until I went to college.
And I went to Dartmouth, if you canbelieve that, to be transported from
New Bedford, Massachusetts, in the blackcommunity with, you know, a whole lot of
nothing and then dropped off at the backof my dorm by my parents in Hanover, New
(07:13):
Hampshire at Dartmouth in June of 1972was quite a transition to say the least.
Yeah,
Kim (07:21):
now is that where you started to get involved in track and
field because you were a two time?
NCAA Division I AllAmerican, which is amazing.
That's right.
Rich (07:30):
That is correct.
And
Kim (07:32):
you competed internationally as a member of the United States
track and field team as well.
So when did you decide to pursue law?
Rich (07:39):
I did a externship in East Palo Alto in the Ravenswood School District.
And back then, Palo Alto andEast Palo Alto were separated by
a highway, 101, they still are.
But East Palo Alto was theghetto, no question about it.
And it was a different world.
So as a consultant in that summer,they were asking me to help them
resolve a problem they were having.
(08:00):
And the problem was that the richsuburbs around Palo Alto, Atherton,
Menlo Park were annexing themselves.
From the property tax rolls that werebeing utilized to fund education in
East Palo Alto, so they brought meinto consult to figure out how to
resolve the problem, and I figuredout in pretty short order that an
(08:21):
educator, a doctor of education wasnot going to solve that problem.
The problem is going to be solved bya lawyer or a judge in the courts.
And the remedy was going to be handeddown by a judge or a lawyer who knew
nothing about the business of education.
And if I was the superintendentof schools, I was going to have to
implement this ridiculous policyput forth on my plate by someone who
(08:42):
didn't know anything about education.
So that's when I started tothink, maybe I need to be a
lawyer instead of an educator.
Kim (08:48):
Yeah.
And you have represented NFL Hallof Famer wide receiver, James.
Lofton, Olympic champions, Edwin Moses,Marion Jones, which is incredible.
And then the reason that we're heretoday to speak about your book, but
hope solo and the women's soccer team.
(09:12):
So tell me.
A little bit about how you foundyourself the representative
of that team and then what thestory of the book about is about
Rich (09:25):
in December of 2012 December 13th.
In fact, I'm a dates guy.
I remember dates and times.
I got a call from an associate of mine.
His name was Andre.
He was Hope Solo and her husband,Jeremy Stevens, financial advisor.
And I'd known Andre for years.
He would come to the sports lawyersassociation conference every year.
And that's where I met him.
So he called me and said, Hey,Rich, I represent Hope Solo.
(09:45):
And the team is in the midst ofnegotiating their collective bargaining
agreement with the U S soccer.
Hope is the leader of the team.
And she's very upset because theircurrent counsel doesn't agree with their
salary demands and refusing to taketheir salary demands back to the U.
S.
Soccer Federation.
So she asked me if I knew of a lawyerwho was tough and strong and smart,
(10:07):
who would be willing to work withus to get them what they wanted.
And I told her about you.
And I said, okay, appreciate that.
And would you be willing to talk to her?
I said, yeah, sure.
I set up the call.
He said, well, I've gother on the line right now.
So you patched hope in, I had nevertalked to hope before I knew she
was, but I'd never talked to her.
The only time I had any exposureto hope solo was back in 2008.
(10:30):
She did an interview withPierce Morgan on CNN.
And after hope had basically Had ariff with her coach, Greg Ryan, who had
pulled her out of a, I guess it was aWorld Cup game and they ended up losing
the game four to nothing and hope madethe bold comments afterwards that if
she had been in the game, they wouldn'thave lost the game that kind of thing.
(10:50):
So I remember watching herand I thought, wow, she's
really smart and brave.
A little rough around the edges,but wow, I really respect her
honesty and her willingness tocome out and tell it like it is.
So when I got her on the phone, Ihear this very soft voice and I'm
thinking, is this really Hope Solo?
It's not the Hope Solo.
So
Kim (11:09):
it's interviewing.
Rich (11:11):
Yeah, but it was her and she explained the situation and she said,
would you be willing to help us rich?
I said, sure.
Yeah, absolutely.
I said, what's the next step?
She said, are you willing to get on aconference call tomorrow with the team?
Sure.
So I did.
They talked me through the situation.
Would you be willing to cometo Boca Raton the next day
and meet with us in person?
I did.
And at the time I hada law partner of mine.
(11:34):
Who went with me, and we listenedto them, and we gave them a little
presentation on what we thought we woulddo, or they should do, and how we could
help them, and when we left the meeting,we were on the way to the airport, and
the team took a vote to either replacetheir current counselor or hire, at
the time it was going to be two of us,and they voted 9 to 9, it was a tie,
and so Hope called me on the way to theairport, and she says 9 to 9, I'm really
(11:57):
upset, blah, we're going to take anothervote, and I'll call you back, so she
called me back the next morning, Theyhad taken another vote and it was 10
to eight to keep their current council.
So I said, Hey, not a problem.
I'm, I'm around.
If you want to pass somethingby me, just give me a call and
I'm willing to talk to you.
So she said, okay, fine.
So that was in December of 2012.
(12:19):
13 months later, in January of 2014,I got a call from Hope and she told
me, Hey Rich, it's been a year.
We signed this MOU, thismemorandum of understanding, which
was basically an agreement toagree it really wasn't the CBA.
But we're unhappy.
U.
S.
Soccer hasn't lived up totheir obligations as usual.
Would you be willing to meetwith us and talk with us?
(12:41):
So I met with the team, talkedwith them again, told them what
I thought they needed to do.
And I told them, I said, look, youhave to understand that your life as
a professional athlete is very short.
And you have to maximizeyour potential to earn money.
And the only way you'regoing to do it is to be in
control of your circumstance.
And you just need to take control.
Period.
And if you bring me on,I can help you do that.
(13:03):
So they liked it and said theywere going to do it, but months
went by, maybe six months went bybefore I heard from them again.
So I heard from themagain in June of 2014.
Yes.
They want to bring me on, but they,Abby Wambach and Christie Rampone,
who were the captains of the team atthe time, wanted to talk to me again.
So I had a call with, actually itended up only being Abby Wambach
who talked with me in February.
(13:25):
We had a 30 minute conversationand they decided, okay.
We really like you.
We're going to sign youup, but they didn't.
So now we get to September of 2014.
Oh
Kim (13:35):
my God,
Rich (13:37):
called me and said, Would you be willing to fly to Rochester,
New York and meet with us again.
So be the third time.
And, and I'm sorry but withinthe team is kind of decisive
blah blah blah I said no problem.
So I went to Rochester, New York.
And I met with themagain for the third time.
And that was the time when theytook a vote and decided, okay,
I'm going to bring Rich on anddismiss our previous counsel.
(13:57):
What I didn't know at the time when Imet with them that day was that they
had just met with the previous counseland, and Sunil Gulati, the president
of US soccer, and the team had decidedthat their counsel and Sunil over
a 14 year period of time had becomebasically too chummy and too friendly.
To the extent that the team didn'tfeel like his name was John that
(14:19):
John was representing their interestswasn't advocating for them as as
vociferously as he could or shouldthose two Sunil and John had met with
the team just before they met with meI didn't know that that they really
wanted me because they felt thatI would really You know, represent
Kim (14:33):
them.
Rich (14:34):
Yeah,
Kim (14:34):
I write in the book about the gentleman's agreements
that they had that weren't evencontractual about the fact that
the women had no maternity leave.
They were flying in coach to games.
The soccer fields weren't checked.
There was no post career benefit at all.
There's no 401k.
(14:55):
There's no nothing.
And that the men's teamranked 24th in the world.
Versus the women's team rankednumber one, right, in the world,
netting 5 million in ticket salesand the men losing 1 million and
the women aren't being paid equally.
(15:16):
So, you know, you, there are so manythings you took into consideration
here and so many tactics I thoughtwere interesting in your book.
But one of the first ones, andit sounds like, again, given this
long Trajectory to being hired wascreating unity among the team members.
(15:37):
And then teaching them toleverage the power of no.
Rich (15:42):
Yes, absolutely.
Kim (15:44):
So I'm curious, how do you, how were you able to build unity for them?
And, and when they're understandablytheir income is at stake at
the same token, it's like thediscrepancies are so egregious.
So it seems to me like, whywouldn't you get on board that,
that bandwagon, but I'm not there.
(16:04):
I'm not living in that moment.
So I don't know.
Rich (16:07):
I think a few things that happened to the team over the years.
Since the 1999 team won the WorldCup, and that's really when the battle
for equal pay began was back then,and they got tremendous pushback
from the Federation, even back then.
But I think there was always thismentality that if we continue
to win, and we continue to dowell, the Federation will come
(16:29):
around and treat us fairly.
They really will.
We believe that they will.
Why wouldn't they?
How come they're treating us this way?
It can't last.
So by the time I got there in thatlast meeting in September of 2014,
before they signed me up, I toldthem, I said, look, if you bring me
on, I'm only as powerful as the powerthat you give me and the power that
(16:51):
you can give me that you're going tohave to give me in order for me to get
you what you need and want is unity.
There's 24 of you, it'sgot to be 24 to zip.
The votes always gotto be 24 to nothing.
Otherwise.
I don't have the power.
Kim (17:05):
Yeah.
There can't
Rich (17:05):
be any dissenters at all, ever, in all this stuff that we're
going to try to do, because we'regoing to be pushing boulders aside.
So there can't be a crack in the armor.
You can't give U.
S.
soccer any notion that there'sweakness or vulnerability.
And what we're trying to do anda 23 to one vote on something
is exactly that vulnerability.
(17:26):
No unity.
Unity is power.
Power will get you leverage.
Leverage will help us get what we want.
Period.
It's just that simple.
So they understood that.
But it took the first year.
It took the year 2015.
Certainly the first six months of 2015for them to understand the power of no.
When I took over in January2015, I began saying no to the
(17:50):
Federation almost immediately.
The first sponsorship deal theycame to us with was the FIFA
2016 video game, EA Sports.
And the general counsel said, Hey,Rich, this is a great opportunity.
EA Sports wants to featurethe women's team in FIFA 2016.
It's going to be a renewalof the men's FIFA 2012 game.
(18:14):
I said, Hey, it sounds great.
How much are they going to pay the team?
Oh, nothing.
Kim (18:19):
Steering!
Zero.
I was, I, my head nearly explodedwhen I read that in the book.
I was like, what are you talking about?
That's the license of their image.
And if, as a producer in entertainment,that's a whole, that's a whole
business model in and of itself.
Forget the sports, right?
The licensing of the image, butthat they would think they could
(18:39):
get away with paying nothing.
Rich (18:41):
I said to her, her name was Lisa Levine, general counsel, Lisa, nothing?
Blink.
What are you talking about?
Oh, this is a great opportunity.
It's a great awareness andmarketing opportunity for the team.
And I said a great aware, this team,they're perennial Olympic champions.
They've won, at the time,it was two World Cups.
They don't need anyawareness or visibility.
(19:03):
They already are.
It's the men's team thatneeds that kind of help.
We don't need that.
And we're not doing it for nothing.
You have to.
No, we don't have to do anything.
We don't have to do anything.
And we're not doing it for nothing.
Oh, but we've alreadynegotiated the deal.
We're fired down the line.
The storyboards are already marked up.
Uh, one of the women on theteam are going to be featured
(19:23):
on the cover of the game.
I said, I don't care.
We're not doing it for nothing.
I'll take it back to the team.
I have to and see what they say, but I'mtelling you what they're going to say.
They're not doing it for nothing.
And that's what the team said.
We're not doing it for nothing.
So when the federation realizedthat these women were not going
to show up, but the federationhad already contractually agreed
(19:46):
with EA sports that the womenwould be available to participate.
They realized federationrealized they were going to
have to come up with something.
So Lisa Levine called me backone day and she said, rich.
Just be straight with you.
You've already made the commitments.
For the women to participate inthis game, we're kind of stuck.
So, I'm basically Too bad.
Kim (20:06):
Too bad for you.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Too bad you're stuck.
Anyway, sorry.
We're
Rich (20:11):
basically, we're all family here.
The whole family discussion.
So, we can offer you 20, 000.
We can offer the team 20, 000.
One time payment.
Total.
Kim (20:23):
Total for 24 women.
Rich (20:24):
Yeah.
The men are onlygetting 120, 000 a year.
It's a renewal of their deal beforewhere they got 120, 000 a year.
It's a good faith gestureon the Federation's part.
We understand where you're coming from.
Blah, blah, blah.
So I said, let me takeit back to the team.
So I took it back to the teamand I said, look, let's do it.
They understand now that, or Ithought they did, that we're not
(20:45):
taking no money to do anything.
So this would be 20, 000 more thanwe had, but they got the message.
They've gotten the message.
So the team agreed.
So between January of 2015 and Aprilof 2015, the Federation presented three
or four more deals like that to us,which paid little to no money at all.
(21:05):
And we rejected them all.
And that kind of set the stage.
For going to the World Cup, winningthe World Cup, and then having real
leverage to get what the women wanted.
The first opportunity to do that wasI wrote about it in the book when
the team won the World Cup and twocaptains of the team, Christy Rampolla
(21:26):
and Abby Wambach, asked, literallyasked the president of the federation
for the week, the next weekend off.
Off,
Kim (21:33):
yeah.
Rich (21:34):
And it was the first weekend after the World Cup, after a 30
day grueling World Cup competition.
The team was, they were mentallyand physically fatigued.
They just wanted a weekend off and theywere told pretty point blank, no, we've
already marketed the team for the NWSLgames this weekend, they're all sold out
based upon the fact that national teamworld cup champion players are going
(21:56):
to play and no, you're going to play.
So they tried, they went back tohim the next day and he basically
said no and then I'm going to havea call with the entire team and
make sure you all understand you'reall going to play this weekend.
So that's when they finallycalled me and said, this is what's
transpired over the last two days.
I said, well, a couple of things.
One.
You're not having any call with theFederation tomorrow night, which
(22:16):
was going to be a Wednesday night.
I'll have the call.
And if you don't want toplay this weekend, you're
not playing this weekend.
Period.
End of story.
Kim (22:24):
What's so interesting, again, one of those other tactics, you
talk about words being weapons.
No, again, now that started youngfor you, but law, the use of the law.
And so what struck me is, again,these off the record gentleman's
agreements, the fact that they, from2012 onward, did not have a formal
contract that they're operating ona memorandum that doesn't include,
(22:49):
again, any kind of licensing terms,any kind of benefits, basic benefits.
And then the bringing in.
the Equal Pay Act.
You made a big nationalmorning show announcement.
So tell me a little bit about thechoice to go to that legislation.
Rich (23:12):
So we pushed back in, in July after the World Cup and
basically told the Federation,we're not playing this weekend.
And they heard us.
And we negotiated a compromise where theplayers would make personal appearances
at those NWSL games that weekend afterthe World Cup final, but they wouldn't
play in exchange for some money.
So we got some money.
(23:33):
They only had to make appearancesand didn't have to play.
That's what they wanted to do.
So with that, we hada victory with that.
That was the first time we used theWorld Cup championship leverage.
to get what the players wanted.
So from that point forward, I knew thatwe had the leverage required to pursue
(23:55):
this equal pay, uh, opportunity in thenext collective bargaining negotiation.
Kim (24:00):
You call it a nuclear bomb too.
You call it and strategically,it was a nuclear bomb for you.
Rich (24:05):
Yeah, it was.
It was because I don't think theywere expecting it and they weren't
expecting it To come from a team thatnow had some leverage to really push
the issue, to get what they want.
So that's what we didin January of 2016.
What I did was in August, a monthafter the world cup victory, a month
after we pushed back and didn't playthose NWSL games, I met with, uh, Sunil
(24:28):
Gulati, the president of the federation.
I said, Hey, Sunil, look, thatMOU has no marketing provisions.
There's no group licensing provisions.
There are no provisionsin it that allow.
Individual players to market themselvesand their brand to make money off of
their World Cup victory and probablythe next year's Olympic victory.
Why don't we negotiate the newcollective bargaining agreement?
(24:49):
Start doing it now so that it can befinished before the Olympics in 2016
so the team and the women can havethe benefit of being able to leverage
their celebrity and their victoriesinto competent money for them.
So he agreed to that, whichI was surprised about.
This is August of 2015.
He agreed to it.
But then they dragged their feet andthey didn't have the preliminary first
(25:09):
meeting with us about CBA negotiationsuntil November 30th of 2015.
So we had that initial meeting.
We were very transparent aboutwhat we were going to ask for.
Then we spent the month of December, theteam, putting together the collective
bargaining agreement proposal.
And then we presented it to theFederation in January, early January of
2016 and started physical negotiations.
(25:33):
For that deal, which was for equalpay and a bunch of other things,
group licensing, health benefits,maternity leave, 401k, catastrophic
insurance, all kinds of thingsthat they should have had already.
So that that's how we got tothe negotiation point of a CBA
proposal that had equal pay asthe driving force of the proposal.
(25:53):
And the lesson here is commitment.
Be committed.
100%.
Commitment is, it's binary.
You're either committed or you're not.
You can't be 80 percent committed,60 percent committed, and expect to
achieve your objectives and goals.
You got to be 100 percent committed.
And this team, US NationalWomen's Soccer Team, at the
(26:15):
beginning of the equal pay push,they were 100 percent committed.
But they lost two things.
They lost unity.
That means they lost leverage, andthen they lost their commitment,
their 100 percent commitment to equalpay, and they did not get equal pay.
That system they agreed to, the payto play system, it's not equal pay.
It's the same compensationsystem that's paying the men's
(26:38):
team, but it's not equal pay.
And as always, the devil is in thedetails, especially with the U.
S.
Soccer Federation.
So, therefore, you've gotto maintain your commitment.
This team was in the red zone, 20 yardsfrom scoring the equal pay touchdown,
but they lost their commitment.
And I understand it.
I totally understandthe human condition.
(26:58):
Survival is a very strong incentive.
They chose survival.
I get it, but you gotta bea hundred percent committed.
That's the lesson.
If you commit, maintain the commitment,it's going to be stormy, it's going
to be hard, it's going to be rocky,you're going to feel pain, you're
going to get slimed, you're goingto get all this, but if you maintain
(27:22):
your commitment, you're going toget to the other end and you're
going to get the gold ring, period.
Kim (27:34):
What's your experience in the way that men and women use power?
Rich (27:38):
A lot of women are afraid to exercise their power.
As the team we were finalizingthe collective bargaining
proposal with Equal Pay.
And I had the numbers in therewith regard to what equal pay would
be, one of the players said, Rich,are we asking for too much money?
And I thought about that and I thought,wow, there's still this prevailing
view that we don't deserve what weshould have in terms of compensation.
(28:04):
And we're asking for it.
I thought, we're notasking for anything.
We're demanding it.
Because you deserve it andyou should get this money.
So there's just, I don't know why, butI've been drawn to strong women like
Marion Jones and Hope Solo and otherswho are in your face demanding it.
(28:27):
We want it.
We're going to get it.
We deserve it.
It's mine.
I'm taking it.
And for whatever reason, somewomen are afraid to do that.
Kim (28:37):
I think it comes with the label, right?
It comes, you talk about anaggressive negotiation style, but
if women are labeled aggressive,then it's the kiss of death.
And we could be speakingquietly and firmly.
Rich (28:50):
Yes.
Kim (28:51):
And it's the kiss of death.
Rich (28:52):
Yeah, no, you're right.
You're right about that.
And men know that.
And what really bothered meabout this negotiation is.
That the Federation had three womenon the other side of the table.
Kim (29:04):
And that was disgusting to me.
Rich (29:07):
And they were the primary mouthpieces during the negotiations.
Against the women's team forequal pay, it blew my mind.
Donna Shalala, Catherine Rumler,and the general counsel Lisa Levine.
To this day, I can't,I don't understand it.
Kim (29:22):
The story, I was like, how could you be a woman on the other,
but I understand, I do understandhow they do it because there are
women so afraid and entrenched inthe system and afraid to speak out.
The point of our podcast is toencourage women to speak out.
to use their voices.
I think what's interestingthough is, again, you're a black
man, you have a Native Americanmom, so you identify as black.
(29:48):
Is that correct?
Yeah.
In America,
Rich (29:49):
if you're, in America, if your dad's black, you're black.
I've always identified as black.
Kim (29:53):
Yeah.
So, um, I think you talked about, evenwhen you were making the announcements
for Equal Pay, about the optics,not wanting the optics of being
a black lawyer with white women.
And that was really confusing tome, because I was, I'm so glad
you were in the 60 Minutes piece,but I am, I think that's powerful.
(30:13):
Personally, I feel that'sa powerful statement.
Rich (30:16):
So that's a reality that, that black lawyers, black professionals
have to accept and live with.
It's just a reality for us thatwhatever we do is summarily a discount.
And what I worried about with that wasI didn't want, because it was a bold
(30:36):
move, bold move, Serious nuclear bomb.
You've got five white, highprofile female players on
the World Cup champion U.
S.
women's national soccer team suing theiremployer for equal pay in violation
of Title VII wage discrimination.
At the EEOC that is never happenedbefore groundbreaking revolutionary
(31:01):
is setting a stage for other womenin the workplace to maybe do the
same thing to have the courage andthe bravery to do the same thing.
And I worried that if it was me.
Sitting on the set withthem on the today show.
A black lawyer putting forththis bold move that it would be
(31:24):
discounted as something that I wasdoing for my benefit and not for
the benefit of the team, and itwouldn't have been taken seriously.
And I sit here convinced todaythat it wouldn't have been.
It would have beendiscounted and dismissed.
But if Jeff,
Kim (31:41):
yeah, it just makes perfect sense to me.
See it for me, it makes perfect sensethat you would understand it and that
you would actually hear them in a waythat again, they had not been heard.
Rich (31:55):
Exactly.
And to a certain extent, evenduring the across the table
negotiations, I felt that I wasn'tnecessarily being taken seriously.
And one of the lawyers on theother side consistently rolled
his eyes at me whenever I talked.
And he did it to me threetimes in the first session.
The fourth time I leaned acrossthe table, I said, man, if you roll
(32:15):
your eyes at me again, it'd be thelast time you roll your eyes at me.
But it was a sign of disrespect.
It
Kim (32:21):
was a sign
Rich (32:22):
of, Oh, what are you talking about?
You're just a black lawyer.
You don't know whatyou're talking about.
Blah, blah, blah.
That's how I interpreted it.
And that's how he meant it.
There's no question in my mind about it.
You have to be cognizant of that.
You have to take action based on that.
It can't be about you.
And that's why it's funny.
I didn't tell Jeff, Jeffrey Kesslerthat he was going to sit on the
set until 20 minutes before.
(32:42):
And he's like, why not you?
I said, trust me.
Just go out there with him.
One, he's Jeffrey Kessler.
He's the preeminent sportslawyer in the world.
Tom Brady's lawyer, home nine yards.
He's going to be taken very seriously.
And he was, it was.
Kim (32:56):
You talked about the eye of the storm and some of the things
that you mentioned, like that itwas the perfect storm, that so
many things were the perfect storm.
And we're seeing it againright now with the WNBA.
Stuff as well playing out intuitionis something you mentioned
desire something you mentioned.
Those seem like veryfeminine leadership.
And I'm curious, we talked about power.
(33:19):
Do you think women lead differently?
And if so, how?
Rich (33:24):
Yeah, I think women do lead differently.
And when they decide to take thelead, they're very good at it.
Very good at it.
In fact, I prefer working with womenbecause women are very directed.
They know what their objective is.
Ego doesn't get in the way men.
Ego is always the firstthing and women execute.
(33:44):
They get it done.
That's how my mother was, youknow, she's passively aggressive.
You know, we had nothing but shemade sure that what we did have,
we had, and we had it all the time,notwithstanding the, the obstacles.
That way in her way, sheexecuted, she got it done.
I didn't realize that I was absorbingthat at the time, but as I look back
on it, that's what I saw in my mom whohad little to nothing, but herself,
(34:08):
her intuition, her strength, herability to make decisions and her
ability to control the household.
My mother controlled our household.
So once a woman decides that she'sgoing to lead beware, because
she's not given up and men don'tknow how to deal with that.
Kim (34:24):
The pay checks, fairness act.
Which expands on provisions in theEqual Pay Act, has, and that makes
it illegal for employers to makemen and women unequal ages for
performing the same work, has beenintroduced 13 times, 13 times over two
decades, and it still has not passed.
(34:46):
So what do you think we need to doif we can make this whole lesson
that you've learned actionable?
What do we think we needto do to tip the balance?
You
Rich (34:55):
needed Hillary Clinton to be the President of the United States.
That's what it boils down to,and that's why she's not the
president of the United States,because the men, the Republicans,
pulled out all stops to make surethat she didn't assume that role.
And unfortunately, womendidn't vote for her either.
53 percent of the suburbanwomen voted for Donald Trump.
Kim (35:16):
They abandoned ship.
Yeah.
Rich (35:18):
And we're still looking at that probability today as we speak.
Kim (35:23):
Oh yeah.
We're seeing it with abortion.
We're seeing it in so many areasthat women, again, this It's fear,
this pervasive cultural discreditingof our value, our belief that
we don't deserve to be paid.
We're winning the world cup.
We're winning the Olympicsand we still don't.
Is it too much?
(35:43):
Am I being paid too much?
Really?
Rich (35:45):
I think men single out women like Hope Solo and others
who are strong and forceful andin your face and eliminate them.
And that's the message thatthey're sending to the rest.
Of the world.
If you get out there and you putyour career and your life on the
line, we're going to take it.
We're going to take it.
That's what's going to happen to you.
And that's why theydetermined, that's why the U.
S.
Soccer Federation firedHope in August of 2016.
(36:08):
They claimed it was becauseshe called the Swedes cowards.
That wasn't the case.
How do I know it wasn't the case?
Because the coach, Jill Ellis, and, andSunil Gulati flew back from Rio with
Hope and told her not to worry about it.
That was like on the13th or 14th of August.
And then on August 24th, she'sfired, which just so happened that
(36:29):
it was right about that time when60 Minutes knocked on their door, U.
S.
Soccer, and they realized that, wow,60 Minutes is doing an investigation.
So now we have to cut off the head ofthe leader of the, we have to cut off
the head of the snake of this, theperson who's the most forceful on the U.
S.
women's soccer team for equalpay, and that's Hope Solo.
And if we fire Hope Solo, thegreatest of all time goalkeeper,
(36:54):
the reason why we've got WorldCup and Olympic victories.
We'll send a message to therest of the team that if she
can be fired, so can you.
So you better get offof this equal pay trip.
As soon as you possibly can,
Kim (37:06):
and that's what happened.
It seems so obvious to me, you'redoing the same job, of course
you should get paid the same.
And again, the dollars, thereare significant dollars, it's
not like they would be brokeif they gave somebody a raise.
So what do you think it's about?
Rich (37:22):
It's about, I heard them say it, the men that run the federation
do not believe that the level ofcompetition In the women's league
and women's soccer is the same asthe level of competition for the men.
So they believe that if you arecompeting in an inferior environment,
(37:47):
an environment that's inferior tothe men's competitive environment.
You don't deserve to bepaid what the men get paid.
That's what they said.
They had the temerity toactually vocalize that.
So how do I interpret that?
Inherently, they believethat women are inferior.
Kim (38:05):
Yes, and that actually makes total sense when you say that
because inferior playing conditions,inferior pay, just as a reflection
of their internal value system.
Rich (38:17):
And what I heard consistently, you women should be happy to be
here playing and getting paid.
We, the United States SoccerFederation, we have invested more
money in your team than any otherfederation around the world.
Be happy, shut up and play.
Well, they have to invest
Kim (38:35):
in that team because it's the only one they have that's winning.
So they have to do it.
That's not the logic.
I understand.
That's not
Rich (38:41):
the logic at all.
That's not their mindset.
Their logic, in my view, havingbeen with them and listened
to the Federation, they wouldrather not have them, the U.
S.
Women's National Soccer Team.
Because their focus is the men'steam and being a feeder system
for the MLS and the Pro Leagues.
That's all they care about.
They don't care about the women.
That's They still don't.
(39:03):
They still don't.
And still don't provide women respect.
Kim (39:06):
Why is it that you like to represent women?
Why are you drawn to the stories and tothe support and to be an ally of women?
What do you think that is?
Rich (39:18):
Because me, I believe that That women are stronger, have
stronger constitutions than men.
Women, when women are committedto something, it gets done.
Women do the work.
Kim (39:37):
What is your wish for every woman?
Rich (39:40):
That women take stock.
And don't listen to all this noiseout here that's constantly telling
you, either verbally, overtly,covertly, that you are a woman.
aren't worth it.
Forget all that.
You're more than worth it.
You're stronger than the restof these clowns out here.
(40:00):
Just focus on you, your objectives,and get it done, notwithstanding
all the obstacles that men aregoing to put out there for you.
Period.
Just keep going and you'll get there.
It's going to be hard,but you got to keep going.
Otherwise, you're not going tobe in control of your destiny.
But you got what it takes,it's in there and the men know
(40:22):
it and they're afraid of you.
Force them to face theirfears and their fear is you.
Force them to face it.
Kim (40:31):
Be visible.
Use your voice.
Every other woman needs you to lead.
Voice Lessons is co produced,written, and spoken by me.
(40:55):
Kim Cutable.
It's also co produced andedited by Sergio Miranda.
You can find past episodes, shownotes, and the cool stuff our guests
recommend at voicelessonspodcast.
com.
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