September 15, 2025 • 33 mins
The brilliant Catherine Millan joins the We Are PoWEr Podcast - bringing resilience, empathy, and a mission to change workplaces for the better. Founder of Be What You See Consultancy and winner of the 2025 Northern PoWEr Women Awards Person with Purpose Organisation Award, Catherine is dedicated to creating psychologically safe environments through innovative active bystander training.
From becoming a young carer at just 14 when her mum faced mental health struggles after cancer treatment, to finding structure and leadership in the Army Cadets, Catherine’s early life shaped her determination to become the role model she never had growing up. A late ADHD and dyslexia diagnosis during lockdown gave her new self-understanding, helping her sharpen her focus and grow her award-winning business.
Catherine shares how the Manchester Arena attack sparked her to develop training at a time when hate crimes had surged 500%, why compassionate leadership is her greatest strength, and how she’s turning corporate investment into free programs for schools. With a book in the works and her eyes set on scaling her impact, Catherine proves that lived experience, empathy, and courage can drive lasting change.
In this episode:
From young carer to entrepreneur with purpose
The Army Cadets and the leadership lessons that lasted a lifetime
How the Manchester Arena attack inspired active bystander training
ADHD, dyslexia, and the power of late diagnosis
Winning a Northern PoWEr Women Award and what it means to her
Why compassionate leadership is her superpower
Plans to scale her business and inspire future generations
Find out more about We Are PoWEr here. 💫
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, hello and welcome to the we Are Power
podcast.
If this is your first time here, the we Are Power podcast is
the podcast for you, your careerand your life.
We release an episode everysingle Monday with listeners in
over 60 countries worldwide,where you'll hear personal life
stories, top-notch industryadvice and key leadership
insight from amazing role models.
(00:21):
As we Are Power is the umbrellabrand to Northern Power Women
Awards, which celebrateshundreds of female role models
and advocates every year.
This is where you can hearstories from all of our awards
alumni and stay up to date witheverything MPW Awards and we Are
Power.
Well, welcome to the podcastthis week an award winner,
(00:50):
multi-award winner, actually,but obviously most importantly,
2025 Person with PurposeOrganisation Award Catherine
Milan.
Welcome to the podcast, thankyou, thank you.
I've wanted you on the podcastfor so long.
I remember when I think it wasover lockdown, when we were
doing our kind of Be Heard.
Northern Power Women.
You did like a little threeminute video for us, didn't you
(01:10):
around?
International.
I forget nothing, by the way.
I love it and I think whatjumped out at me is the title of
your organisation.
Tell us, because you can't tellus it in a sentence.
I know that.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Tell us, because you can't tell us in a sentence, I
know that but tell us who youare and all about your org.
So my name's Catherine Millan.
I am the founder and companydirector of Be what you See
Consultancy.
We are an equity, diversity andinclusion training company, but
we specialise in workplacediscrimination prevention,
(01:46):
intervention, and so a lot ofthe work that I do is with
clients who are either havingissues with workplace
discrimination in areas such asracism, homophobia, transphobia
and gender inequality, and we'llkind of go in, we'll do an
audit and we'll look at theirsystems and processes, but we'll
also look at it on a kind ofverbal and behavioral level what
needs to change, what awarenessneeds to be raised and then we
(02:08):
kind of just really get them toa point on them being able to
say, yeah, this is a reallypsychologically safe work
environment for all of our staff.
Be what you see is called bewhat you see Really, because
when I was growing up, I neverreally see myself represented in
anything.
(02:28):
I definitely didn't see myselfas an entrepreneur.
I kind of came from a workingclass background and a lot of
people that I would see when Iwas younger, as adults they
worked because they had to andthey didn't necessarily do jobs
that they liked.
So my whole outlook on life waslike you've just got to do it
and earn money to live andthat's the way the world works.
(02:49):
I never really associated doingsomething that you were
passionate about with likeearning money, if that makes
sense.
And uh, when I kind of got to apoint in my career where I knew
something needed to change I Iwas like I love training and I
want to set up my own trainingcompany.
I felt quite passionate aboutbeing a role model and being the
(03:12):
person that I never seen when Iwas younger.
We do a training program withyoung people in schools and it's
got what we call a Be what youSee series and it's exactly that
.
I recruit professionals fromall over the UK and I get them
to go into schools and just telltheir stories because I'm like
(03:33):
I want you to be the person thatlittle Catherine wanted.
So, yeah, that's the kind ofstory behind the name of the
company and kind of where I camefrom.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Really, and you talked about growing up and
thinking that work was a meansto an end, a means to eat, a
means to live and stuff likethat.
But you also were you in thearmy cadets yes, I was yeah, so
it's like sometimes I alwaysthink of those sliding doors
moment, you know and I think andwhat age were you when?
Speaker 2 (04:05):
you were doing that.
So I was 14 when I joined thecadets and why?
Why was that?
And that largely came down tothat was the age where I became
a young carer for my mum, okay,and when I was one my mum got
cancer and that resulted in herhaving to go to a hospital in
(04:26):
Sheffield because of the type ofcancer that she had.
She was away for about a year.
We went into care and waslooked after by someone else and
that really affected my mummentally years later.
So even though she survived,you know she she's physically
fit now the cancer's not comeback.
And at that time mentally itbroke her really and she never
(04:50):
really recovered from it.
And when I was 14, that was thefirst time that she had a
breakdown, had to behospitalized because of her
mental health.
And cadets came at a time at mylife where I needed a bit of
routine structure and I alsoworked with an organization
called Western Spirit.
(05:10):
So Simon Weston and really goodfriends with Simon and known him
since I was 14 used to do a lotof work with that charity and
they really helped me turn mylife around.
So the combination of doing thatpersonal development work and
then the structure and theroutine of the cadets, I think
really gave me what I didn'thave at home because, even
(05:33):
though I'd never change it now,um, being a carer at the age of
14, it was really challengingbecause all of my mates were
going, you know, out to thecinema, out with their friends,
like dating boys, you know allstuff like that, and for me I
was like going and paying thebills or, you know, going and
doing the food shopping orhaving to like run the house,
(05:54):
and it was just really reallyoverwhelming and I think I just
needed some type of structure orroutine and I was able to find
it through those two differentthings and, you know, I learned
some of you know very basic lifeskills on, like you know how to
iron, because you weren'tallowed tram lines, and you know
just the, the discipline of,like you know, being on time for
(06:17):
stuff, having to look afteryourself, um, you know having,
you know having you know cooking, ration, food, all stuff like
that, and it was just it got meoutside, so I was away most
weekends, um, because in thecadets you go through different
star levels and I made my wayall the way up to the top and
yeah, it was just.
(06:37):
I think it kind of came in atthe right time in my life and
I've always been quitepassionate about taking every
opportunity, like I say yes toeverything.
Do you know what I mean?
But I think it's because I'vecome from a background where you
don't really get anything, soyou've got to fight for it and
if something comes you've justgot to take it and take that
(06:57):
risk.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
I'm glad that your mum is is well.
Um, we'll come back to the sayyes thing, because I think I've
always done that.
Say yes and work out later.
Yeah, is it always a good thing?
We'll come back to the say yesthing, because I think I've
always done that say yes andwork out later.
Yeah, is it always a good thing?
We'll come back discuss.
We'll come back to that one.
So what, how long were you inthe cadets then?
How long was that part of your,your part of that community?
Speaker 2 (07:16):
yeah.
So I was in the cadets fromwhen I was 14 right up until I
was 18.
I trained when I turned 18.
I actually trained to be anadult instructor because I
wanted to kind of get you know,pay forward, give it back, um.
But I got into university.
So it was kind of like I can'treally do both here, um, and I
got into university and I movedaway.
So that was the first timewhere I was like, oh, I'm gonna
(07:41):
have my own place, I'm gonna beable to manage money, that's
mine.
And it was the first time I waslike, actually, I've just got
to look after me now, which wasquite liberating for me.
So I think all of my friendswere like really scared.
They're like, oh, I'm going tomiss my parents.
And I was like, yes, thisamazing life opportunity, here
it is.
And I think it was at that timethat I came out as well.
(08:06):
So when I was younger I didn'treally feel comfortable to even
speak to anyone about my sexualorientation.
So going away to university and, you know, finishing the cadets
, it was almost this.
It was like a brand new chapterwas opening for me.
But I was taking all of theseamazing life skills that I'd
learned.
So I was in dorms and I wasthriving and everyone else was
(08:27):
like, how would you use thewashing machine?
How would you do this, like,how do you pay this bill?
And I was like, come here, joey, like been doing it for years
now, like I can teach you, typeof thing Is that where your
training career almost started,because you were wanting to be
like a training instructorweren't in the cadets?
Speaker 1 (08:42):
yeah, I wonder, was this is the start of the
consultancy right?
Speaker 2 (08:45):
yeah, or were you trading?
Speaker 1 (08:47):
I traded in the navy.
I'd be like right wasn't reallygood at that, but I was really
good at braiding hair, right, soI braid the hair someone do the
shirts not so good at tramlines.
Do you know what I was?
Speaker 2 (08:57):
just reflecting back on it now, I was just, I was a
really good leader.
So I very quickly you you knowmade my way up the ranks.
You know I worked my way up to,I think, a colour sergeant
major by the time that I left,and I was always my birthday's
in September, so I always felt Iwas always the oldest in the
group anyway who I'd been putwith, and I think, because I'd
(09:20):
been in that role of carer, itwas just in my second nature.
So I just, I naturally kind ofdon't mind taking on that role
and I think it's one of thereasons why it's led me to the
path of being an entrepreneur,because I think I've just got
that mentality of like, I'mhappy to be that person at the
front and to take the lead andit doesn't scare me in any way.
(09:44):
What makes a good leader?
The front and to take the lead,and it doesn't scare me in any
way.
What makes a good leader?
I think for me, what I wouldsay makes a good leader,
especially on reflection of thepast three years of running the
company I think it's havingempathy and compassion, and I
think it's having empathy andcompassion for the people who
are at the side of you or behindyou, because I think I've
(10:06):
learned that as a leader, you'vekind of got to understand where
everybody else is at and thenyour role is to kind of guide
them in the right way.
And I think with that as wellit probably there's an, there's
an element of.
I think good leaders are theones that are going to take the
risk, and I think that's me aswell, like I will and I think
(10:30):
again, this probably comes downto the cadet like I'll be that
person on the front line, I'lltake the risk, I'll, do you know
, go and see if it's safe, andthen I'll call everybody else.
So, yeah, compassion, empathyand taking the risk.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
And you talk about being an active bystander.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Yes, Talk to us about that.
Yeah, so after I finisheduniversity, I went away for a
couple of years and didhumanitarian aid work all around
the world Absolutely loved it.
I was working on theSustainable Development Goal for
Improving Quality of Educationand absolutely loved it.
I was working on thesustainable development goal for
improving quality of educationand I learned a lot in terms of
(11:11):
systems, processes aroundeducation and curriculum
development.
And I'd learned all of thisamazing stuff over the three
years and I was like I thinkit's time to go back to the UK
Like I loved it.
But it was.
You know, it was hard, it wasrough.
I was in Nigeria.
I got malaria three times.
You know it was hit and miss attimes.
(11:32):
So I was like, okay, I'm goingto go back home.
And I got sent a job at theUniversity of Manchester to work
in student recruitment andwidening participation and I
ended up getting the job.
I remember doing the interview.
Um, we had to travel like threehours to the nearest town
because we were in Nigeria atthe time and booked this hotel
(11:56):
room, did this interview overSkype they see me for about 10
minutes and then the electricitywent out and then everything
went down.
I was like, oh my god, what?
What are we going to do?
But luckily I'd give them mynumber, so they did the rest of
the interview over the phone,and then I found out a couple of
hours later.
I got it Way to make animpression.
Yeah, I mean, I was like come on, I'm definitely the one to
(12:17):
remember, always about beingmemorable, right, and that then
was the start of me working kindof in the space of equality,
diversity and inclusion.
But before there were jobs androles like there are now, and
one of the projects that I wasasked to work on was a
(12:39):
intervention to look atimplement an active bystander
training across different highereducation institutes across the
UK.
Now that came because of theback of the Manchester Arena
attack.
So what happened?
When that attack happened inGreater Manchester, we seen like
a 500% rise in hate crime andthe young people that was
(13:03):
working with, the students, thestaff we were all affected by it
.
You know, I probablyexperienced more racism and
homophobia in those weeks afterthe attack than I had in my life
.
So I went to the university andI was just like, listen, can we
do something?
You know, is there any funding?
I think we need to as aninstitute, like address this.
(13:28):
And then there was an amazingwoman that worked alongside Kath
Prescott.
She was like well, we're justabout to roll out active
bystander training, and activebystander training is, uh, an
intervention initiative that'sbasically designed to equip
people to be able to respond tothings like discrimination in
(13:50):
the moment by teaching people atoolkit, essentially.
So I was kind of like, yeah,this sounds brilliant, I want to
do this.
I'd had a phone call from aprimary school teacher asking me
to come in and do a workshop onwhat had happened and this
teacher was just like I don'tfeel confident and talking about
(14:11):
terrorism.
I don't feel confident ontalking about racism.
So I was just like, right, okay, this is quite alarming that
teachers are coming and askingfor these types of things, but
also, why aren't we equippingteachers with the right tools
and confidence to be able totalk about these subjects?
So kind of put our headstogether and then I came up with
(14:32):
what we call our championsprogram.
So I was like, right, we'llgive training in anti-racism and
LGBT inclusion, neurodiversityand how to be an active
bystander, but we won't justgive people training in it.
We'll give them training andthen we'll do a train the
trainer model, where they haveto go out and then deliver
(14:53):
something back to their teams ortheir schools.
And it just completely took off.
And because there was thispiece of work going on, I think
there was eight universities intotal that were rolling out
active bystander training forstaff and students.
I was then doing that, but thendoing this additional work in
schools, and the results wereamazing.
(15:14):
We had schools coming to ussaying we've had an increase in
reporting, but we're nowstarting to see a decrease in
that type of identity basedbullying, in that type of
identity-based bullying, becausemore people are aware now of
what racial microaggressions areor why it's important to use
pronouns and things like that.
That then led to the projectgetting loads of awards and you
(15:39):
know how it works.
Once you start getting thatattention of awards and stuff,
people are like, oh, okay, yeah.
And then lockdown happened andeverything stopped.
Um, we had I was lucky enoughto get £10,000 investment
funding from the universitybecause they did this amazing
scheme called investing insuccess, but they were basically
(16:02):
like, yeah, it's got to stopnow, we can't do this anymore,
and that then led me to themkind of being like right, if all
of this work that I've beendoing has stopped, actually what
am I like?
What am I doing now?
My job went from being in thecommunity, being with people
running these events, doingtraining, to being sat behind my
laptop, and I basically had abit of a breakdown during
(16:25):
lockdown.
Um, and it was a mix of likephysical fatigue, um, cycles of
burnout and what I would say areall my little quirks almost got
exacerbated.
So then my me and my partnersat down and I was just like
something's not right.
Like I.
(16:46):
Everyone else was thriving inlockdown but I was really
struggling.
It translated that I then hadADHD and dyslexia.
So during lockdown I wentthrough a diagnosis.
So I was like one of the 20% ofwomen that was diagnosed and
that was just a massive turningpoint in my career because it
(17:07):
was a real.
I had to really shine themirror on myself in terms of
what job am I doing that allowsme to thrive?
What's my home environment like?
What's my lifestyle like?
For those first couple of yearsprobably about two years before
I started the business I had tomake changes to make sure.
(17:28):
For those first couple of yearsprobably about two years before
I started the business I had tomake changes to make sure that
my mental health stayed in theright and positive way.
My partner got me a life coachwho just transformed my life.
Coaching is a really effectivetechnique for people with ADHD.
I really like it because it'sthe you go in to the big picture
(17:51):
thinking, but then it's verytask orientated, so you come out
with actions that you knowyou're held accountable for, and
I thrive with that kind ofdynamic.
And then, within I think it wasabout the first two sessions we
(18:29):
were like, right, let's set,let's set the company up.
So we did it.
And then within four months Iwas fully booked with training.
So I was like, okay, be what yousee needs to be my full-time
job, now stopped since, and theI think the drive and passion
comes from really wanting towork in an environment that
supports me and my needs, butalso is is doing something that
I really love.
I feel like I love being infront of people and taking them
through something like activebystander training, and I have
people come in and they're likereally shy, I don't want to say
the wrong thing, and they comeout being like I'm yeah, I'm
(18:51):
going to go back, I'm going tospeak to my team, I'm going to
use this technique the next timeit happens.
Or now I know if somebody saysthat I know how to challenge
them in the right way becauseyou've given me the toolkit and
it's one of the most rewardingthings I've ever done in my life
.
And to say, to fit to know thatI'm actively contributing to
reducing something likeworkplace discrimination.
(19:12):
I'm kind of just at peace withmyself where I'm like it is my
purpose.
So when I got the award I waslike your face was validation it
was.
It was just absolute validationof this is what you're meant to
do, catherine, and the awardjust came at, I think, a time
that I needed that bit of a,like a push, to say yeah you
(19:34):
nearly didn't come, did you?
Speaker 1 (19:36):
yeah, it was because my mum wasn't very well at the
time.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Yeah, so it was.
I think it was literally likelast minute and you know, I know
a lot of people probably saythis to you but I genuinely
didn't think that I was going towin.
I turned up in a leopard printsuit because I was like, yeah,
I'm not going to win, I'm notgoing to be on stage and then I
was like and as soon as, like Iseen my picture come up, like I
(20:01):
said, I had like an out of bodyexperience.
Did the leopard print go to thestage and you sat where you were
it did, it did, and I was justlike and and you know what
really moved me as I was walking, I could see people in the
audience crying, but I I don'tknow what was said about me,
because I think I was havingthis out-of-body experience.
(20:24):
So I'm walking off being like,oh my god, oh my god, this is
happening.
I've got people looking at mecrying and then I was just like
what's being said?
Like I just isn't.
And then afterwards, and themessages that I've had and like
the support that I've had frompeople, like people reaching out
and being like you know, if youever want advice and guidance
(20:46):
as a new founder, stuff likethat, it's been like, it's been
amazing because it's opened somany doors and I carry the
trophy with me.
Where is it?
Speaker 1 (20:54):
where is it now?
It is, it is at home this time.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
So what?
Because it's a work of beauty,right?
Oh, I absolutely love it.
It's good conversation starter.
If I'm in a call with a newclient, I have it there.
Do you know what I mean?
And it's just for me.
It's just something that isthat reminder.
So on a day where it's a littlebit tougher, I'm struggling.
I'll look at that and be likeno, catherine, this, like this,
(21:20):
is your purpose and no matterhow hard this job gets, I'm
gonna take it all the waybecause I think I owe that it's
tough being a founder right yeahyou know, yeah but then you are
ultimately resilient aren't you?
yeah, and I think, do you knowwhat a lot of people?
Um, I was doing this uh sessionyesterday with a group of young
(21:44):
people who were going to gointo marketing and they were
asking me about, you know, likethe challenges and everything.
And I always say to them youknow, when I grew up, sometimes
we didn't have food and wedidn't have money.
I think, watching a parent golike struggle mentally and not
really being able to do anythingabout it, like struggle
(22:05):
mentally and not really beingable to do anything about it.
And you know I was attacked forbeing gay and being a lesbian
and you know my skin colour, andI was like I feel like there's
moments that happened in my lifewhere I'm like, if I can get
through them, this challengehere you can absolutely do, and
I just I dig deep to kind offind something you can
(22:27):
absolutely do and I just I digdeep to kind of find something.
And to me there's just somethings where I'm just like, on a
grand scheme of things, is that?
Is that as hard as that moment?
And what did you do to getthrough that moment?
Speaker 1 (22:35):
and I think that's the thing that gets me through
really and it's interestingbecause I always think is what's
the advice you give youryounger self and I don't need to
ask you that, because I seeyou're doing it the things that
I thought I couldn't do,something I love, or I didn't
think that was for me.
You're creating Anything thatyou have experienced.
(22:56):
You're putting it's almost likeI'm going to fix all this.
You're a fixer?
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
And I think again.
Again, it comes like I know,like I know a lot about ADHD and
dyslexia now because there's alot of training on it, but I'm
I'm sat there and I'm likereading through, like this is
these are the traits, these arethe, and I guess I've kind of
found that my brain works in acertain way and that's really
(23:22):
influenced some of my behaviours, but in a real positive way.
So I am risk averse and a lotof people have ADHD are, but
that's led me to being a reallygood entrepreneur.
You know I am a fixer and youknow, ultimately, when people
say you know like what's yourjob or what you do, what you
work towards, and I'm like myjob is is stopping
(23:43):
discrimination in the UK, that's, that's essentially what my job
is and for me, I'm alwaystrying to problem solve
something and I think I'vealways just had this mentality
and I think you know, combinedwith how my brain and mind works
.
But you know, growing up asyoung carer, single, single
parent background, you justlearn how to survive.
(24:04):
Do you know what I mean?
So there's nothing whatever.
I never really quit.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
And you talked.
We talked earlier, didn't we,about saying yes to
opportunities Is there anyopportunity?
You said yes to that.
You were like what was Ithinking?
Speaker 2 (24:19):
God, there's a few.
I think it's not necessarilywhat was a thinking, it was more
after I've said yes, it's beena really hard and tough lesson.
So, for example, um, when I wasdoing humanitarian work in
nigeria, I I was only meant tobe there for six months and do
(24:41):
one cycle working with a groupof volunteers, and then we had
like an amazing group you know,I'm quite competitive as well,
so, like, our group won like anaward and everything for the
community work and stuff thatwe'd done and we'd seen a real
impact and they approached meand said, do you want to do
another cycle?
And I was like, do you knowwhat?
(25:01):
Yeah, so I did another sixmonths, but it was in that six
months then that I got malariathree times.
Um, the second group were had alot more challenges, um, which I
think then made me kind of getto the point where I was like,
oh, I don't know if I'm enjoyingthis role anymore.
Um, and it was almost one ofthose things you know when you
(25:22):
do something for the first timeand you love it, and then you do
it again and you're like, oh,that was just meant to be a
one-time thing, because now,yeah, so I think there's things
in life where I don'tnecessarily regret it, but I'm
just like actually that's thepoint where I should have said
no and I should have probablymoved on.
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (25:41):
You went to Sherry Blair's 50th party down the
street.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Yes, I did.
My mum's still got the pictureas well off in a frame.
Yeah, so that was with WesternSpirit.
So Sherry Blair, I think shewas one of their patrons and at
that time I'd done quite a lotof work with Western Spirit and
I'd gone from nearly beingpermanently excluded to then,
(26:07):
you know, getting GCSEs going onto become head girl.
So I was kind of a bit of theirlike poster girl as such really
.
And yeah, just a couple ofyouth workers and they asked for
a young person to be invited to.
I got to go down for the day.
I remember seeing the garden of11 Downing Street and then them
explaining how it all works andthey were like we don't
(26:28):
actually live in number 10, it'snumber 11.
Seeing like you know, spoileralert yeah, but obviously as you
know, like as a young person, Iwas just like, oh, this is
amazing.
And um, yeah, yeah, it was just,I think, to have moments like
that as a young person as well.
I remember speaking in like theHouses of Parliament, you know,
(26:49):
sharing a platform with DameTammy Gray Thompson, and there
was just all of these reallycool moments that happened, but
I think, because I was quiteyoung didn't really appreciate
them and for me it was just goin and tell your story.
So I was just like yeah, I'mCatherine, this is what I do,
and then, but I think that kindof gave me a bit of a taste of
(27:11):
wanting to not necessarily belike, you know, go into public
speaking, but it just gave me aconfidence to do it.
Like I said, said I'm not notvery good with scripts or
anything like that.
I like to just have aconversation free-flowing, like
I've been on podcasts and I'lltalk about my life story and
it's.
It's different every time, butfor me it's just I like it that
(27:34):
way, because it's context isn't.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
It depends what you're talking about like life
is not short, like in thatrespect, isn't it?
There Depends what you'retalking about.
Like life is not short, like inthat respect, isn't it?
There's so many differentdimensions to it.
What's next?
What are you excited for?
Speaker 2 (27:46):
So I think what's next really is to in terms of
the business, I really want togrow, be what you see and get to
a point where we're the numberone provider in the UK.
That's kind of in terms of thebusiness and the goal.
I want to grow the team.
I want the work that we do inschools to be in every school
(28:07):
across the UK, but I don't wantschools to have to pay for it.
So one of the things that I'mworking on at the moment is a
model so that every adult thatdoes training with us it pays
for a young person to do it forfree.
And I think once I've reachedthat milestone, um and this may
shock you I'm then probablygoing to sell the business,
because I set it up as a limitedcompany on the premise that I
(28:32):
was always going to sell itbecause I kind of I I envision
where it can be and I've kind ofjust got to the point where I'm
like I don't know if I want totake it to that level where it's
global.
I mean, I'm the founder and I'llalways be the founder, but do I
want to be the CEO when we'vegot like tens of thousands of
(28:52):
staff and you know, just beinghonest now, I mean, there's, I
think, another season for medoing other things in terms of,
um, you know, maybe going,setting up a charity or just
having a bit of a break fromlife, going and seeing the world
again and spending some propertime with my partner and my
(29:13):
family.
So, yeah, the we're kind of onthe road now with getting the
business investment ready.
Um, and then I'm starting tothink about what's life like
after that for me Next chapterright.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Yeah, I'm going to write a book as well, I'm just
going to say you have a book inyou.
If I've ever heard one, yeah,definitely A red one.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
I was actually quite strategic with this.
I've just submitted a bookchapter.
It's funny enough.
I a book chapter.
Uh, it's funny enough.
I actually got an email twodays ago to say it with the
publishers and things now so, um, I can't say much more about it
.
Um, but it is more or lessready to go.
It's going to hopefully bepublished the end of 2025.
(29:52):
Um, and I think, because ofhaving dyslexia, I've always
been quite nervous about writing.
Um, so I was like, well, if Ijust do a chapter and test the
waters and see if I like this,and I loved it, it was like
therapy.
I was like this is brilliantbecause it was just, it was kind
of talking about my life and myexperiences.
(30:14):
Did you write or audio it?
I actually wrote it.
Yeah, I found it quitetherapeutic.
I went down to the library inLiverpool City Centre and just
booked in a couple of weekendsjust going there, and I just
freehand wrote it.
Wow.
And then you then typed it allup and stuff and then had
(30:35):
somebody come in and have a lookand almost edited it for me
from a dyslexia perspective tomake sure that you know the
grammar and things like that,and then I kind of came away
from the process and was likeactually I really enjoyed that.
So now it's kind of the okay,let's take that next step to
write the book.
But yeah, that would be becausethere's so much more to.
(30:59):
I know I've gave you kind oflittle hints and stuff today,
but there's so many things thathave happened in my life that
have led me to here, and Ialways say to people it's you
know the film SlumdogMillionaire.
I'm like that's my life when hetalks about all the things he
experienced and able to answerthe questions.
That that's been mine reallyand that's the reason why I do
(31:22):
what I do and like I want toshare those lessons with people
and I want, like I can imaginelike little Catherine picking
the book up and seeing herselfand being like, oh okay, we can,
we can make it, you can, yeah,you can.
So, yeah, so book sell, sellthe company and then just see
(31:43):
what happens really superpower.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
What is it?
Yeah, what's your superpower?
Speaker 2 (31:49):
I think my superpower is definitely I'd say it's
probably my, my leadershipskills, my ability to be a
leader.
I think it's just somethingthat comes naturally to me.
It's something that I'vedeveloped because of the
(32:09):
adversity that I've been through, but I think it makes me quite
a compassionate leader, anempathetic leader, but also a
leader who's kind of willing totake risks and is bigger picture
thinking, like the world's ouroyster, the universe is our
oyster.
To me, and I'm I always holdthat vision.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
Well, I cannot wait to read the book Prue's.
Promise Me your Lord Ability aswell because I'd be like right
in there definitely, thank youso much, thank you.
Amazing Congratulations on theaward.
Thank you, you'll be comingback to judge this year as well.
We always get our award winnersto come back and be judges as
well, which?
Speaker 2 (32:48):
is really good fun as well.
It's like I'm tough.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
I'm not going to say it's not mission easy, but thank
you so much.
You're brilliant and lookforward to the book, thank you.
Thank you.
Subscribe on YouTube, apple,amazon Music, spotify or
wherever you get your podcasts,leave us a review or follow us
on socials.
We are Power underscore net onInsta, tiktok and Twitter.
(33:11):
We are Power on LinkedIn,facebook and we are underscore
Power on YouTube.
Hello, hello and welcome to the we Are Power
podcast.
If this is your first time here, the we Are Power podcast is
the podcast for you, your careerand your life.
We release an episode everysingle Monday with listeners in
over 60 countries worldwide,where you'll hear personal life
stories, top-notch industryadvice and key leadership
insight from amazing role models.
(00:21):
As we Are Power is the umbrellabrand to Northern Power Women
Awards, which celebrateshundreds of female role models
and advocates every year.
This is where you can hearstories from all of our awards
alumni and stay up to date witheverything MPW Awards and we Are
Power.
Well, welcome to the podcastthis week an award winner,
(00:50):
multi-award winner, actually,but obviously most importantly,
2025 Person with PurposeOrganisation Award Catherine
Milan.
Welcome to the podcast, thankyou, thank you.
I've wanted you on the podcastfor so long.
I remember when I think it wasover lockdown, when we were
doing our kind of Be Heard.
Northern Power Women.
You did like a little threeminute video for us, didn't you
(01:10):
around?
International.
I forget nothing, by the way.
I love it and I think whatjumped out at me is the title of
your organisation.
Tell us, because you can't tellus it in a sentence.
I know that.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Tell us, because you can't tell us in a sentence, I
know that but tell us who youare and all about your org.
So my name's Catherine Millan.
I am the founder and companydirector of Be what you See
Consultancy.
We are an equity, diversity andinclusion training company, but
we specialise in workplacediscrimination prevention,
(01:46):
intervention, and so a lot ofthe work that I do is with
clients who are either havingissues with workplace
discrimination in areas such asracism, homophobia, transphobia
and gender inequality, and we'llkind of go in, we'll do an
audit and we'll look at theirsystems and processes, but we'll
also look at it on a kind ofverbal and behavioral level what
needs to change, what awarenessneeds to be raised and then we
(02:08):
kind of just really get them toa point on them being able to
say, yeah, this is a reallypsychologically safe work
environment for all of our staff.
Be what you see is called bewhat you see Really, because
when I was growing up, I neverreally see myself represented in
anything.
(02:28):
I definitely didn't see myselfas an entrepreneur.
I kind of came from a workingclass background and a lot of
people that I would see when Iwas younger, as adults they
worked because they had to andthey didn't necessarily do jobs
that they liked.
So my whole outlook on life waslike you've just got to do it
and earn money to live andthat's the way the world works.
(02:49):
I never really associated doingsomething that you were
passionate about with likeearning money, if that makes
sense.
And uh, when I kind of got to apoint in my career where I knew
something needed to change I Iwas like I love training and I
want to set up my own trainingcompany.
I felt quite passionate aboutbeing a role model and being the
(03:12):
person that I never seen when Iwas younger.
We do a training program withyoung people in schools and it's
got what we call a Be what youSee series and it's exactly that
.
I recruit professionals fromall over the UK and I get them
to go into schools and just telltheir stories because I'm like
(03:33):
I want you to be the person thatlittle Catherine wanted.
So, yeah, that's the kind ofstory behind the name of the
company and kind of where I camefrom.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Really, and you talked about growing up and
thinking that work was a meansto an end, a means to eat, a
means to live and stuff likethat.
But you also were you in thearmy cadets yes, I was yeah, so
it's like sometimes I alwaysthink of those sliding doors
moment, you know and I think andwhat age were you when?
Speaker 2 (04:05):
you were doing that.
So I was 14 when I joined thecadets and why?
Why was that?
And that largely came down tothat was the age where I became
a young carer for my mum, okay,and when I was one my mum got
cancer and that resulted in herhaving to go to a hospital in
(04:26):
Sheffield because of the type ofcancer that she had.
She was away for about a year.
We went into care and waslooked after by someone else and
that really affected my mummentally years later.
So even though she survived,you know she she's physically
fit now the cancer's not comeback.
And at that time mentally itbroke her really and she never
(04:50):
really recovered from it.
And when I was 14, that was thefirst time that she had a
breakdown, had to behospitalized because of her
mental health.
And cadets came at a time at mylife where I needed a bit of
routine structure and I alsoworked with an organization
called Western Spirit.
(05:10):
So Simon Weston and really goodfriends with Simon and known him
since I was 14 used to do a lotof work with that charity and
they really helped me turn mylife around.
So the combination of doing thatpersonal development work and
then the structure and theroutine of the cadets, I think
really gave me what I didn'thave at home because, even
(05:33):
though I'd never change it now,um, being a carer at the age of
14, it was really challengingbecause all of my mates were
going, you know, out to thecinema, out with their friends,
like dating boys, you know allstuff like that, and for me I
was like going and paying thebills or, you know, going and
doing the food shopping orhaving to like run the house,
(05:54):
and it was just really reallyoverwhelming and I think I just
needed some type of structure orroutine and I was able to find
it through those two differentthings and, you know, I learned
some of you know very basic lifeskills on, like you know how to
iron, because you weren'tallowed tram lines, and you know
just the, the discipline of,like you know, being on time for
(06:17):
stuff, having to look afteryourself, um, you know having,
you know having you know cooking, ration, food, all stuff like
that, and it was just it got meoutside, so I was away most
weekends, um, because in thecadets you go through different
star levels and I made my wayall the way up to the top and
yeah, it was just.
(06:37):
I think it kind of came in atthe right time in my life and
I've always been quitepassionate about taking every
opportunity, like I say yes toeverything.
Do you know what I mean?
But I think it's because I'vecome from a background where you
don't really get anything, soyou've got to fight for it and
if something comes you've justgot to take it and take that
(06:57):
risk.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
I'm glad that your mum is is well.
Um, we'll come back to the sayyes thing, because I think I've
always done that.
Say yes and work out later.
Yeah, is it always a good thing?
We'll come back to the say yesthing, because I think I've
always done that say yes andwork out later.
Yeah, is it always a good thing?
We'll come back discuss.
We'll come back to that one.
So what, how long were you inthe cadets then?
How long was that part of your,your part of that community?
Speaker 2 (07:16):
yeah.
So I was in the cadets fromwhen I was 14 right up until I
was 18.
I trained when I turned 18.
I actually trained to be anadult instructor because I
wanted to kind of get you know,pay forward, give it back, um.
But I got into university.
So it was kind of like I can'treally do both here, um, and I
got into university and I movedaway.
So that was the first timewhere I was like, oh, I'm gonna
(07:41):
have my own place, I'm gonna beable to manage money, that's
mine.
And it was the first time I waslike, actually, I've just got
to look after me now, which wasquite liberating for me.
So I think all of my friendswere like really scared.
They're like, oh, I'm going tomiss my parents.
And I was like, yes, thisamazing life opportunity, here
it is.
And I think it was at that timethat I came out as well.
(08:06):
So when I was younger I didn'treally feel comfortable to even
speak to anyone about my sexualorientation.
So going away to university and, you know, finishing the cadets
, it was almost this.
It was like a brand new chapterwas opening for me.
But I was taking all of theseamazing life skills that I'd
learned.
So I was in dorms and I wasthriving and everyone else was
(08:27):
like, how would you use thewashing machine?
How would you do this, like,how do you pay this bill?
And I was like, come here, joey, like been doing it for years
now, like I can teach you, typeof thing Is that where your
training career almost started,because you were wanting to be
like a training instructorweren't in the cadets?
Speaker 1 (08:42):
yeah, I wonder, was this is the start of the
consultancy right?
Speaker 2 (08:45):
yeah, or were you trading?
Speaker 1 (08:47):
I traded in the navy.
I'd be like right wasn't reallygood at that, but I was really
good at braiding hair, right, soI braid the hair someone do the
shirts not so good at tramlines.
Do you know what I was?
Speaker 2 (08:57):
just reflecting back on it now, I was just, I was a
really good leader.
So I very quickly you you knowmade my way up the ranks.
You know I worked my way up to,I think, a colour sergeant
major by the time that I left,and I was always my birthday's
in September, so I always felt Iwas always the oldest in the
group anyway who I'd been putwith, and I think, because I'd
(09:20):
been in that role of carer, itwas just in my second nature.
So I just, I naturally kind ofdon't mind taking on that role
and I think it's one of thereasons why it's led me to the
path of being an entrepreneur,because I think I've just got
that mentality of like, I'mhappy to be that person at the
front and to take the lead andit doesn't scare me in any way.
(09:44):
What makes a good leader?
The front and to take the lead,and it doesn't scare me in any
way.
What makes a good leader?
I think for me, what I wouldsay makes a good leader,
especially on reflection of thepast three years of running the
company I think it's havingempathy and compassion, and I
think it's having empathy andcompassion for the people who
are at the side of you or behindyou, because I think I've
(10:06):
learned that as a leader, you'vekind of got to understand where
everybody else is at and thenyour role is to kind of guide
them in the right way.
And I think with that as wellit probably there's an, there's
an element of.
I think good leaders are theones that are going to take the
risk, and I think that's me aswell, like I will and I think
(10:30):
again, this probably comes downto the cadet like I'll be that
person on the front line, I'lltake the risk, I'll, do you know
, go and see if it's safe, andthen I'll call everybody else.
So, yeah, compassion, empathyand taking the risk.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
And you talk about being an active bystander.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Yes, Talk to us about that.
Yeah, so after I finisheduniversity, I went away for a
couple of years and didhumanitarian aid work all around
the world Absolutely loved it.
I was working on theSustainable Development Goal for
Improving Quality of Educationand absolutely loved it.
I was working on thesustainable development goal for
improving quality of educationand I learned a lot in terms of
(11:11):
systems, processes aroundeducation and curriculum
development.
And I'd learned all of thisamazing stuff over the three
years and I was like I thinkit's time to go back to the UK
Like I loved it.
But it was.
You know, it was hard, it wasrough.
I was in Nigeria.
I got malaria three times.
You know it was hit and miss attimes.
(11:32):
So I was like, okay, I'm goingto go back home.
And I got sent a job at theUniversity of Manchester to work
in student recruitment andwidening participation and I
ended up getting the job.
I remember doing the interview.
Um, we had to travel like threehours to the nearest town
because we were in Nigeria atthe time and booked this hotel
(11:56):
room, did this interview overSkype they see me for about 10
minutes and then the electricitywent out and then everything
went down.
I was like, oh my god, what?
What are we going to do?
But luckily I'd give them mynumber, so they did the rest of
the interview over the phone,and then I found out a couple of
hours later.
I got it Way to make animpression.
Yeah, I mean, I was like come on, I'm definitely the one to
(12:17):
remember, always about beingmemorable, right, and that then
was the start of me working kindof in the space of equality,
diversity and inclusion.
But before there were jobs androles like there are now, and
one of the projects that I wasasked to work on was a
(12:39):
intervention to look atimplement an active bystander
training across different highereducation institutes across the
UK.
Now that came because of theback of the Manchester Arena
attack.
So what happened?
When that attack happened inGreater Manchester, we seen like
a 500% rise in hate crime andthe young people that was
(13:03):
working with, the students, thestaff we were all affected by it
.
You know, I probablyexperienced more racism and
homophobia in those weeks afterthe attack than I had in my life
.
So I went to the university andI was just like, listen, can we
do something?
You know, is there any funding?
I think we need to as aninstitute, like address this.
(13:28):
And then there was an amazingwoman that worked alongside Kath
Prescott.
She was like well, we're justabout to roll out active
bystander training, and activebystander training is, uh, an
intervention initiative that'sbasically designed to equip
people to be able to respond tothings like discrimination in
(13:50):
the moment by teaching people atoolkit, essentially.
So I was kind of like, yeah,this sounds brilliant, I want to
do this.
I'd had a phone call from aprimary school teacher asking me
to come in and do a workshop onwhat had happened and this
teacher was just like I don'tfeel confident and talking about
(14:11):
terrorism.
I don't feel confident ontalking about racism.
So I was just like, right, okay, this is quite alarming that
teachers are coming and askingfor these types of things, but
also, why aren't we equippingteachers with the right tools
and confidence to be able totalk about these subjects?
So kind of put our headstogether and then I came up with
(14:32):
what we call our championsprogram.
So I was like, right, we'llgive training in anti-racism and
LGBT inclusion, neurodiversityand how to be an active
bystander, but we won't justgive people training in it.
We'll give them training andthen we'll do a train the
trainer model, where they haveto go out and then deliver
(14:53):
something back to their teams ortheir schools.
And it just completely took off.
And because there was thispiece of work going on, I think
there was eight universities intotal that were rolling out
active bystander training forstaff and students.
I was then doing that, but thendoing this additional work in
schools, and the results wereamazing.
(15:14):
We had schools coming to ussaying we've had an increase in
reporting, but we're nowstarting to see a decrease in
that type of identity basedbullying, in that type of
identity-based bullying, becausemore people are aware now of
what racial microaggressions areor why it's important to use
pronouns and things like that.
That then led to the projectgetting loads of awards and you
(15:39):
know how it works.
Once you start getting thatattention of awards and stuff,
people are like, oh, okay, yeah.
And then lockdown happened andeverything stopped.
Um, we had I was lucky enoughto get £10,000 investment
funding from the universitybecause they did this amazing
scheme called investing insuccess, but they were basically
(16:02):
like, yeah, it's got to stopnow, we can't do this anymore,
and that then led me to themkind of being like right, if all
of this work that I've beendoing has stopped, actually what
am I like?
What am I doing now?
My job went from being in thecommunity, being with people
running these events, doingtraining, to being sat behind my
laptop, and I basically had abit of a breakdown during
(16:25):
lockdown.
Um, and it was a mix of likephysical fatigue, um, cycles of
burnout and what I would say areall my little quirks almost got
exacerbated.
So then my me and my partnersat down and I was just like
something's not right.
Like I.
(16:46):
Everyone else was thriving inlockdown but I was really
struggling.
It translated that I then hadADHD and dyslexia.
So during lockdown I wentthrough a diagnosis.
So I was like one of the 20% ofwomen that was diagnosed and
that was just a massive turningpoint in my career because it
(17:07):
was a real.
I had to really shine themirror on myself in terms of
what job am I doing that allowsme to thrive?
What's my home environment like?
What's my lifestyle like?
For those first couple of yearsprobably about two years before
I started the business I had tomake changes to make sure.
(17:28):
For those first couple of yearsprobably about two years before
I started the business I had tomake changes to make sure that
my mental health stayed in theright and positive way.
My partner got me a life coachwho just transformed my life.
Coaching is a really effectivetechnique for people with ADHD.
I really like it because it'sthe you go in to the big picture
(17:51):
thinking, but then it's verytask orientated, so you come out
with actions that you knowyou're held accountable for, and
I thrive with that kind ofdynamic.
And then, within I think it wasabout the first two sessions we
(18:29):
were like, right, let's set,let's set the company up.
So we did it.
And then within four months Iwas fully booked with training.
So I was like, okay, be what yousee needs to be my full-time
job, now stopped since, and theI think the drive and passion
comes from really wanting towork in an environment that
supports me and my needs, butalso is is doing something that
I really love.
I feel like I love being infront of people and taking them
through something like activebystander training, and I have
people come in and they're likereally shy, I don't want to say
the wrong thing, and they comeout being like I'm yeah, I'm
(18:51):
going to go back, I'm going tospeak to my team, I'm going to
use this technique the next timeit happens.
Or now I know if somebody saysthat I know how to challenge
them in the right way becauseyou've given me the toolkit and
it's one of the most rewardingthings I've ever done in my life
.
And to say, to fit to know thatI'm actively contributing to
reducing something likeworkplace discrimination.
(19:12):
I'm kind of just at peace withmyself where I'm like it is my
purpose.
So when I got the award I waslike your face was validation it
was.
It was just absolute validationof this is what you're meant to
do, catherine, and the awardjust came at, I think, a time
that I needed that bit of a,like a push, to say yeah you
(19:34):
nearly didn't come, did you?
Speaker 1 (19:36):
yeah, it was because my mum wasn't very well at the
time.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Yeah, so it was.
I think it was literally likelast minute and you know, I know
a lot of people probably saythis to you but I genuinely
didn't think that I was going towin.
I turned up in a leopard printsuit because I was like, yeah,
I'm not going to win, I'm notgoing to be on stage and then I
was like and as soon as, like Iseen my picture come up, like I
(20:01):
said, I had like an out of bodyexperience.
Did the leopard print go to thestage and you sat where you were
it did, it did, and I was justlike and and you know what
really moved me as I was walking, I could see people in the
audience crying, but I I don'tknow what was said about me,
because I think I was havingthis out-of-body experience.
(20:24):
So I'm walking off being like,oh my god, oh my god, this is
happening.
I've got people looking at mecrying and then I was just like
what's being said?
Like I just isn't.
And then afterwards, and themessages that I've had and like
the support that I've had frompeople, like people reaching out
and being like you know, if youever want advice and guidance
(20:46):
as a new founder, stuff likethat, it's been like, it's been
amazing because it's opened somany doors and I carry the
trophy with me.
Where is it?
Speaker 1 (20:54):
where is it now?
It is, it is at home this time.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
So what?
Because it's a work of beauty,right?
Oh, I absolutely love it.
It's good conversation starter.
If I'm in a call with a newclient, I have it there.
Do you know what I mean?
And it's just for me.
It's just something that isthat reminder.
So on a day where it's a littlebit tougher, I'm struggling.
I'll look at that and be likeno, catherine, this, like this,
(21:20):
is your purpose and no matterhow hard this job gets, I'm
gonna take it all the waybecause I think I owe that it's
tough being a founder right yeahyou know, yeah but then you are
ultimately resilient aren't you?
yeah, and I think, do you knowwhat a lot of people?
Um, I was doing this uh sessionyesterday with a group of young
(21:44):
people who were going to gointo marketing and they were
asking me about, you know, likethe challenges and everything.
And I always say to them youknow, when I grew up, sometimes
we didn't have food and wedidn't have money.
I think, watching a parent golike struggle mentally and not
really being able to do anythingabout it, like struggle
(22:05):
mentally and not really beingable to do anything about it.
And you know I was attacked forbeing gay and being a lesbian
and you know my skin colour, andI was like I feel like there's
moments that happened in my lifewhere I'm like, if I can get
through them, this challengehere you can absolutely do, and
I just I dig deep to kind offind something you can
(22:27):
absolutely do and I just I digdeep to kind of find something.
And to me there's just somethings where I'm just like, on a
grand scheme of things, is that?
Is that as hard as that moment?
And what did you do to getthrough that moment?
Speaker 1 (22:35):
and I think that's the thing that gets me through
really and it's interestingbecause I always think is what's
the advice you give youryounger self and I don't need to
ask you that, because I seeyou're doing it the things that
I thought I couldn't do,something I love, or I didn't
think that was for me.
You're creating Anything thatyou have experienced.
(22:56):
You're putting it's almost likeI'm going to fix all this.
You're a fixer?
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
And I think again.
Again, it comes like I know,like I know a lot about ADHD and
dyslexia now because there's alot of training on it, but I'm
I'm sat there and I'm likereading through, like this is
these are the traits, these arethe, and I guess I've kind of
found that my brain works in acertain way and that's really
(23:22):
influenced some of my behaviours, but in a real positive way.
So I am risk averse and a lotof people have ADHD are, but
that's led me to being a reallygood entrepreneur.
You know I am a fixer and youknow, ultimately, when people
say you know like what's yourjob or what you do, what you
work towards, and I'm like myjob is is stopping
(23:43):
discrimination in the UK, that's, that's essentially what my job
is and for me, I'm alwaystrying to problem solve
something and I think I'vealways just had this mentality
and I think you know, combinedwith how my brain and mind works
.
But you know, growing up asyoung carer, single, single
parent background, you justlearn how to survive.
(24:04):
Do you know what I mean?
So there's nothing whatever.
I never really quit.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
And you talked.
We talked earlier, didn't we,about saying yes to
opportunities Is there anyopportunity?
You said yes to that.
You were like what was Ithinking?
Speaker 2 (24:19):
God, there's a few.
I think it's not necessarilywhat was a thinking, it was more
after I've said yes, it's beena really hard and tough lesson.
So, for example, um, when I wasdoing humanitarian work in
nigeria, I I was only meant tobe there for six months and do
(24:41):
one cycle working with a groupof volunteers, and then we had
like an amazing group you know,I'm quite competitive as well,
so, like, our group won like anaward and everything for the
community work and stuff thatwe'd done and we'd seen a real
impact and they approached meand said, do you want to do
another cycle?
And I was like, do you knowwhat?
(25:01):
Yeah, so I did another sixmonths, but it was in that six
months then that I got malariathree times.
Um, the second group were had alot more challenges, um, which I
think then made me kind of getto the point where I was like,
oh, I don't know if I'm enjoyingthis role anymore.
Um, and it was almost one ofthose things you know when you
(25:22):
do something for the first timeand you love it, and then you do
it again and you're like, oh,that was just meant to be a
one-time thing, because now,yeah, so I think there's things
in life where I don'tnecessarily regret it, but I'm
just like actually that's thepoint where I should have said
no and I should have probablymoved on.
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (25:41):
You went to Sherry Blair's 50th party down the
street.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Yes, I did.
My mum's still got the pictureas well off in a frame.
Yeah, so that was with WesternSpirit.
So Sherry Blair, I think shewas one of their patrons and at
that time I'd done quite a lotof work with Western Spirit and
I'd gone from nearly beingpermanently excluded to then,
(26:07):
you know, getting GCSEs going onto become head girl.
So I was kind of a bit of theirlike poster girl as such really
.
And yeah, just a couple ofyouth workers and they asked for
a young person to be invited to.
I got to go down for the day.
I remember seeing the garden of11 Downing Street and then them
explaining how it all works andthey were like we don't
(26:28):
actually live in number 10, it'snumber 11.
Seeing like you know, spoileralert yeah, but obviously as you
know, like as a young person, Iwas just like, oh, this is
amazing.
And um, yeah, yeah, it was just,I think, to have moments like
that as a young person as well.
I remember speaking in like theHouses of Parliament, you know,
(26:49):
sharing a platform with DameTammy Gray Thompson, and there
was just all of these reallycool moments that happened, but
I think, because I was quiteyoung didn't really appreciate
them and for me it was just goin and tell your story.
So I was just like yeah, I'mCatherine, this is what I do,
and then, but I think that kindof gave me a bit of a taste of
(27:11):
wanting to not necessarily belike, you know, go into public
speaking, but it just gave me aconfidence to do it.
Like I said, said I'm not notvery good with scripts or
anything like that.
I like to just have aconversation free-flowing, like
I've been on podcasts and I'lltalk about my life story and
it's.
It's different every time, butfor me it's just I like it that
(27:34):
way, because it's context isn't.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
It depends what you're talking about like life
is not short, like in thatrespect, isn't it?
There Depends what you'retalking about.
Like life is not short, like inthat respect, isn't it?
There's so many differentdimensions to it.
What's next?
What are you excited for?
Speaker 2 (27:46):
So I think what's next really is to in terms of
the business, I really want togrow, be what you see and get to
a point where we're the numberone provider in the UK.
That's kind of in terms of thebusiness and the goal.
I want to grow the team.
I want the work that we do inschools to be in every school
(28:07):
across the UK, but I don't wantschools to have to pay for it.
So one of the things that I'mworking on at the moment is a
model so that every adult thatdoes training with us it pays
for a young person to do it forfree.
And I think once I've reachedthat milestone, um and this may
shock you I'm then probablygoing to sell the business,
because I set it up as a limitedcompany on the premise that I
(28:32):
was always going to sell itbecause I kind of I I envision
where it can be and I've kind ofjust got to the point where I'm
like I don't know if I want totake it to that level where it's
global.
I mean, I'm the founder and I'llalways be the founder, but do I
want to be the CEO when we'vegot like tens of thousands of
(28:52):
staff and you know, just beinghonest now, I mean, there's, I
think, another season for medoing other things in terms of,
um, you know, maybe going,setting up a charity or just
having a bit of a break fromlife, going and seeing the world
again and spending some propertime with my partner and my
(29:13):
family.
So, yeah, the we're kind of onthe road now with getting the
business investment ready.
Um, and then I'm starting tothink about what's life like
after that for me Next chapterright.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Yeah, I'm going to write a book as well, I'm just
going to say you have a book inyou.
If I've ever heard one, yeah,definitely A red one.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
I was actually quite strategic with this.
I've just submitted a bookchapter.
It's funny enough.
I a book chapter.
Uh, it's funny enough.
I actually got an email twodays ago to say it with the
publishers and things now so, um, I can't say much more about it
.
Um, but it is more or lessready to go.
It's going to hopefully bepublished the end of 2025.
(29:52):
Um, and I think, because ofhaving dyslexia, I've always
been quite nervous about writing.
Um, so I was like, well, if Ijust do a chapter and test the
waters and see if I like this,and I loved it, it was like
therapy.
I was like this is brilliantbecause it was just, it was kind
of talking about my life and myexperiences.
(30:14):
Did you write or audio it?
I actually wrote it.
Yeah, I found it quitetherapeutic.
I went down to the library inLiverpool City Centre and just
booked in a couple of weekendsjust going there, and I just
freehand wrote it.
Wow.
And then you then typed it allup and stuff and then had
(30:35):
somebody come in and have a lookand almost edited it for me
from a dyslexia perspective tomake sure that you know the
grammar and things like that,and then I kind of came away
from the process and was likeactually I really enjoyed that.
So now it's kind of the okay,let's take that next step to
write the book.
But yeah, that would be becausethere's so much more to.
(30:59):
I know I've gave you kind oflittle hints and stuff today,
but there's so many things thathave happened in my life that
have led me to here, and Ialways say to people it's you
know the film SlumdogMillionaire.
I'm like that's my life when hetalks about all the things he
experienced and able to answerthe questions.
That that's been mine reallyand that's the reason why I do
(31:22):
what I do and like I want toshare those lessons with people
and I want, like I can imaginelike little Catherine picking
the book up and seeing herselfand being like, oh okay, we can,
we can make it, you can, yeah,you can.
So, yeah, so book sell, sellthe company and then just see
(31:43):
what happens really superpower.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
What is it?
Yeah, what's your superpower?
Speaker 2 (31:49):
I think my superpower is definitely I'd say it's
probably my, my leadershipskills, my ability to be a
leader.
I think it's just somethingthat comes naturally to me.
It's something that I'vedeveloped because of the
(32:09):
adversity that I've been through, but I think it makes me quite
a compassionate leader, anempathetic leader, but also a
leader who's kind of willing totake risks and is bigger picture
thinking, like the world's ouroyster, the universe is our
oyster.
To me, and I'm I always holdthat vision.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
Well, I cannot wait to read the book Prue's.
Promise Me your Lord Ability aswell because I'd be like right
in there definitely, thank youso much, thank you.
Amazing Congratulations on theaward.
Thank you, you'll be comingback to judge this year as well.
We always get our award winnersto come back and be judges as
well, which?
Speaker 2 (32:48):
is really good fun as well.
It's like I'm tough.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
I'm not going to say it's not mission easy, but thank
you so much.
You're brilliant and lookforward to the book, thank you.
Thank you.
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(33:11):
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