June 17, 2025 • 55 mins
The Master Sommelier is a commitment to hospitality. So it makes you wonder what a young girl, who admittedly called herself lazy, would take on such a commitment. As life would have it, the challenges became clear to Stefanie Hehn, and each ladder rung became the next challenge. And I get it. I love hospitality. Here is her story on getting to the utmost revered degree in the subject.
Stefanie Hehn—master sommelier extraordinaire from Hamburg’s fabulous Fontenay Hotel—brings a whole philosophy to wine service that goes well beyond being just an order-taker. She tells her team their mission is to turn each guest into the superhero of their own wine story. That means memorable moments, not just pouring what’s popular.
From their conversation, we learn that German wine trends can be as surprising as a plot twist in a telenovela. Riesling’s always beloved, but lately German Pinot Noir (Spätburgunder, for the wine geeks) is stealing the spotlight, with guest explorations into lesser-known varietals like Silvaner for adventurous diners. Stefanie is a champion of mixing the classics with hidden gems—she curates the hotel’s wine list with both her guests’ favorites and her personal discoveries from around the world.
And just so you know, being a master sommelier isn’t all swirling glasses and elegant pours—it takes a mountain of study, relentless passion, and sometimes the bravery to leave a steady job to pursue that next-level sommelier qualification.
On the floor, Stefanie loves when guests give her some direction (“here’s my budget, here’s what we like!”), but she’s also ready to whisk you away with a surprise pairing if you’re up for the adventure. Whether people want to talk organic, biodynamic, orange wine, or good old Bordeaux, the most important ingredient is always to create a special, personal moment—that’s what makes people come back (and maybe brag to their friends later).
So, fancy a glass of Champagne, Pinot Noir, or perhaps a pink Pinot Grigio with a story? Stefanie’s here to make sure you leave with a smile—and maybe a new favorite wine you’ve never heard of before.
If you’ve got more specific questions about Stefanie’s approach, the trends she’s seeing, or German wine culture, just ask!
#winepodcast #sommeliers #WineTalks #StefanieHehn #PaulKalemkiarian #Germanwine, #hospitality #MichelinStar #FontenayHotel #Riesling #PinotNoir #winepairing #winelover #wineeducation #wineindustry #finewine #winelist #organicwine #champagne #wineexperience #mastersommelier
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
When we do some trainings with the staff, I tell the
people we are not order taker. We should
surprise the people that they get a special
moment. We create really special moment. The people
should not forget that they have a reason to come back. You should not
be the superstar. You should feel them
(00:22):
that they are the superhero. When they are coming,
sit back and grab a glass. It's Wine Talks
with Paul. Kate. Hey. Welcome to Wine Talks
with Paul Keane. We are in studio today at a blustery day here in Monrovia
in Southern California. About to have a conversation with Stephanie Henn from
Hamburg, Germany. She's the lead psalm at the five star Fontenay
(00:45):
Hotel as well as a master som introductions in just a second
you have a listen to a couple shows coming out. I have one show
that kind of blends immigration to America with the
pursuit of a wine career. This is with
Zaya Yunan and that's coming out soon. So have a listen to that but
not while we're here today. Here a conversation with Stephanie. Welcome to the show.
(01:07):
Thank you. Hi. You know, we were just talking
about Germany and, and the German wine scene and it's,
you know, I don't know that the American market is, is tuned
to it right now. We seem to go through cycles with, with
Riesling in particular, but other German wines as well, that
they were very popular. When I first started doing this in 1988 with my father,
(01:30):
we, we sought, you know, great Rieslings to present
to our customers and then they kind of fade away, they come back is how
is that market in Germany? Do we see the ebb
and flow of Riesling or because it's sort of the noble grape of Germany. It's
a rather steady appreciation. I think it's.
It was still. There was a time when
(01:53):
it gets really fancy,
maybe it was three years ago that the people really
have been crazy about old Riesling and
Riesling was really famous and now the people
are again interested in other great varieties. I think
at the moment it's really nice when they
(02:15):
have some Pinot Noirs. That's upward
trend that the people are interested about the quality
of the German Pinots and what we do, we
sometimes try to do some things which are not
in fashion at the moment. We show a
Sylvana from Germany. If you have international
(02:38):
customers that can be really interesting for them because
our German wine institute,
they are just pushing Riesling and Pinot Noir international
and Silvana is a great variety. What is a little bit
different because it's just grown in Germany and in
the Alsace and a little bit in the north of Italy. But it's
(03:01):
a really good structured grape and it's a wine
what you can show in. In restaurants
with food. If you don't want to change for
red wine for main course. Silvana can be a really good
possibility to drink one wine for a whole menu.
And yeah, we do it
(03:24):
sometimes in the win wine caring and yeah,
I think this is really good. You said something
interesting about German Wine Academy.
Yeah, and we were just talking about my father's certificate
to a seven day class called the German.
I forgot the name of it. It was the Wine Institute, I think. If the
(03:47):
Wine Institute. Right. So. But you're. You're a master song which
is the pent ultimate degree of. From the court of
sommeliers. And I know there are not a lot of women
that have this degree. There's one right here in my neighborhood, Elizabeth Schweitzer. She's
been certified for years. She used to work here actually
Wine of the Month club. But what, you know, why did you do
(04:09):
that? What was the pursuit? Was your family
in wine? Were you in wine? Was there just
hospitality? Seemed like an interesting place to go. Yeah,
it was. I was a lazy student,
so. Well, it's nice to admit that, you know.
So I finished school after 10 years and thought
(04:31):
working would be easier. Then I started
doing a training program in
the hospitality industry in a little hotel.
I'm born in a vine area. I'm born in Flanken,
so that's where the Silvana is coming from as well.
But I'm coming from a spa city. So
(04:55):
we have a lot of mineral water. Where I'm grown up
and around the city there are some
vineyards. So in the place where I did my
trainee program there was a one star Michelin restaurant
with a really good. The owner was really good
because we always had to try what we
(05:18):
served. And then I thought why do we serve
this wine with this course? Where is this
food coming from? And this was really the story behind
everything was so interesting that I started
learning. And because I was so lazy, I wanted to have a
graduation when I learned I wanted to have something.
(05:42):
Yeah, you're very humble about this laziness.
And then I started when I was finished after you
in Germany you do this training program for three years.
And afterwards I. I moved to other place
in a two star Michelin restaurant. And then I started
(06:02):
working together with a good summary and already
focused on studying about wine. And
then with. I think I was 21 or 22.
When I first signed for a German
sommelier program and
this was. They. They told me in three months it's, you can
(06:25):
have your exam and then
your sommelier and. But this was just a little drop on.
On the mountain or a little drop on
a hot stone. It was just the beginning of.
And then when I was finished with this program, I thought, okay,
let's continue and go on. And then I
(06:48):
started with the call of master sommelier program.
And then I thought, okay, entry level, the
introductory and certified. Okay, it's nice, let's
continue. Advance is really
good. So with the advance, it took me.
I had to go four times. No,
(07:10):
it was the third attempt. Then I passed.
So it took me three times to pass the
advanced exam. And I thought that would be the
highest level I could reach. And I was happy
with it because during that time I was working in a
freestyle Michelin restaurant as I had sommelier full time.
(07:33):
And then I thought, okay, maybe I'm not clever enough.
And advance is okay, it's good. Not that
much people on the market who have this
graduation. And then I'm stopping.
Advance is the, the level just before master.
Yeah, and it is, but it's kind of
(07:56):
difficult because you have to pass your
exam during three days and you have to pass
all the three parts, the tasting, the
theory and the practical. So you have to
prepare everything and if the
first day is okay and then the
(08:17):
next night you, you have the pressure for.
And it's just in one year that you have to pass. And that was
always when you are already tired. Because when you work in a
freestyle Michelin restaurant, sometimes it can happen that you are
tired. Yeah. Let me ask you, let's stop you there for a second.
Is that, was that a surprise that when you got
(08:40):
into being a master sawman running the wine
program at a three star restaurant, that, that, that amount of work.
And the reason I brought this up is I have very close friends
in the industry, of course, and they, they all work
in different types of locations where some get to go home at 8 o' clock
every night and some don't. And some work till
(09:03):
midnight. They got to clean up whatever they got to do. So was that a
surprise for you that there was so much effort to put into being the
lead psalm in a 3 star restaurant?
Not really. It was. I, I knew
before that you have to work a lot, but
yeah, it was and I
(09:26):
enjoyed the work because it was really on a high level.
And I think fine wine with really
high quality of food that was it was so exciting to
have every day working with a crazy guy
in the kitchen who has good ideas every day and
serving food out of trees. That was more than.
(09:49):
I was so happy to see how the people can be
excited about eating and drinking. So I did never
think about that. This is a hard work for me.
But afterwards it was just
difficult for me that if you do this job,
you don't really have enough time in your,
(10:14):
yeah. You don't have spare time to study and,
but you were lazy your life. But you're
a lazy student. How did you do this? I mean, yeah, I, I, it was,
I, I, I had to tell my
chef in that time that I'm going to leave because I wanted
to push for the master summary exam. And then I
(10:37):
just quit the job. Wow.
And, but that was, I was already five
years there. And he could
understand it because for him it was the dream to
achieve the three star. And then he said, I
can't say stay if you want to follow your
(10:59):
dreams and if you think you
don't have enough time in your head to
be concentrated for studying. And then I
think it was the best decision because it was long.
You should not work your whole life in a
(11:20):
free star or for me, I should not work in a
freestyle Michelin restaurant for my whole life because
I also want to live my life. Yeah. And not just
to help other people be happy. I like
to see how happy they are. And I love.
And that's still, I think it was also, even if
(11:42):
that was a hard time, it was also a good preparation for
the rest of my life because, and even for the
preparation for the master so many exam because I knew
that you, if you go push a little bit harder, it's, it
can be worth it. And you can
do more than you think you can. You can.
(12:04):
It's like if you prepare for a mother marathon,
you, you can, yeah, you can push yourself more.
Sometimes you think, okay, after 25 minutes, I'm
done. But if you, if you continue training,
you can be faster and you can do it
longer. Yeah. You know, that's interesting. Those are interesting thoughts.
(12:27):
I, you said a lot of things I want to kind of peel back here.
One of them is, and I don't think this is
unusual that you might choose if you're going to be in a
three star environment that you might be choosing between
pure your whole life being about hospitality. Yeah.
And your, and the rest of your life. I mean that. And it
(12:49):
seems like in today's environment, in order for three star restaurants to
exist with all the social changes and all the different post Covid
problems that. That they need to be more
efficient. They need to get the maximum value from their employees
and they need to maximize all the parts of their business. And that just
requires a complete commitment on the part of let's just say
(13:11):
the master Psalm or the psalm of the restaurant. And I.
And I sensed that we were at Tour d' Argent in Paris
a few weeks ago and. And I was looking around, watching the staff
and paying attention to the psalm and how he was working. I thought wow, this
is a serious commitment of your life
to hospitality to be. And you called it
(13:32):
fine dine or high level of dining. Is that.
Is that the way it feels these days to be in that environment?
I think it's
really. Yeah. I still love
this work. So we
are still having here good
(13:55):
restaurant in the hotel. We started in
2018 with the opening. So the good
thing after I left and I. After I started
with my preparations for my master exams
I had the opportunity to come to Hamburg. So the
freestyle was in Bavaria and I moved to Hamburg
(14:17):
and then I had had the chance to
do a opening of a five star hotel
as a handsomely with an empty wine cellar.
So that was. Wow. Normally we don't really do like
a. We don't write a master.
(14:37):
Yeah, like the master. Like the
master of wine they have to write an essay.
But for the master somebody's we. Our theory
part is just. Yeah. Kind of practical.
We just speak, we don't write. But what I did
I. For my preparations I could write a wine list
(14:59):
for a five star hotel with
two restaurants and two bars just
from zero. And I could do an international
wine list and I could. Nobody told me what
I should put on this. It was just carte blanche
and they trusted me that I am not going to
(15:22):
spend too much money and that I will do
it as the people like to drink.
I think and that was a cool thing. Too much money for. I'm
sorry to interrupt you but I think too much money for a restaurant tour or
hotel is a whole lot different than too much money to the Psalm. Who's
putting together the list? Right. I mean this. Yeah. What were your thoughts
(15:45):
when you were doing this list? This is a very interesting point because there's a
whole. I don't know if you're aware of some of the socialized issues with
they're calling it dumbing down wine and we need to change the language and I
don't agree with any of it. But it's interesting that you had to start from
scratch, create a list. What were your thoughts?
Because I mean, did you know who the Hamburg five
(16:08):
star hotel or the Hotel Fontenay. Yeah.
Client was? Yes. Or you were doing a sort of looking at
the whole industry of wine and say I need to represent it all. What were
you thinking? I thought because before I was in
Bavaria, I was working in a five star
hotel in Hamburg as a sommelier. Not as the head sommelier,
(16:30):
but I was working in the sommelier team. And so I thought,
okay, I know what the people are drinking. And I knew
that a lot of people have been also
visiting the place where I have been before.
So. And during my tastings I,
when I did my blind tastings, I had already a lot of wines
(16:53):
in my, in my mind, which I wanted to buy.
Because when you travel and yeah, when you,
yeah. Go somewhere, it's in the wine areas you,
you won. You already write down and you remember
years afterwards that this
(17:13):
wine should be nice on that place or and in Hamburg. The
good thing is we are in the north of Germany, so we don't have
any wine areas around. The people who
are living in Hamburg is. They are
open minded because it's a harbor town.
So you can bring wines from all over the world
(17:37):
because they don't really care if the wines travel by
ship. That's a good thing.
And then I thought that would be also really cool for my
preparations because I need to study about all.
Because I'm lazy. And then I had the
reason to study about all the wine areas about. Of the world
(18:01):
and to think about which wineries are
interesting wherever. And I
could do something. And I had this wine list to create.
And if you do it. Yeah, it was, it took me about
three months that I had to look for the
wines, talk with some distribution
(18:25):
people to save the wines in their cellar till our
wine cellar was finished that they could deliver.
Yeah, it's an interesting thought there
because I just was sitting with a restaurateur here in Los
Angeles and he was saying that his bottle sales were off
considerably, like 40%, which is more than most people are suffering
(18:48):
from. And he brought in a new song to
revamp the list. This is a Mediterranean restaurant. And he
decided to use all Mediterrane minds and get away
from the standards. Yeah. So which, and
you said something earlier where, where you notice what people were
drinking. And so is this a decision on the psalms part?
(19:09):
And you mentioned you travel the world. Well, like we were just in Sicily and
I got to take, you know, Masculaze. Yeah.
You know, I got to drink some of these Aetna Mountain wines and
things that you don't really see on lists here in America. And
so the argument I'm making is, do we look at
wine lists for what people are drinking, which is what you're
(19:32):
bringing to the table, having been in the field versus what you think
they should be drinking based on what's being made in the kitchen?
Do you have to balance this idea because you want to expose
your clients to the really interesting wines of the world that would do
well with the foods there. Yeah. Or you just whatever they want?
I think when it depends on
(19:55):
which part of the hotel the people are coming. We have
a two star Michelin restaurant in the seventh
floor of our hotel where the people
are drinking. I think 80% of
the people who are coming are drinking the wine pairing with the
menu. Oh, really? Wow. So this is really
(20:17):
good because I thought I do the wine pairing
out of the wine list. So I sell all
the wines. Like I try to
don't have two wines or
three wines from the same area in the wine pairing. And I just
do like a world trip of wines in the wine
(20:39):
pairing. And I usually have
one wine or sometimes two from Germany. Because if we have
international guests, they want to taste
what we have. Yeah. So. And in this
case we have, I think 80% of
the guests who decide for the wine pairing are happy to
(21:01):
be surprised. And if
the other 20% are
expecting. Get the wines
they know, sometimes you find it out after the first
wine already. Then you have to try what they like and then
they don't get the wine pairing. What is really
(21:23):
like the best pairing with the food. In this
case, we would have some wines by the glass which
are. Yeah. Good value
for everyone. And you would find different
things. Yeah. What we can do by the glass
and what I write with the wine list, it's
(21:47):
not a. Yeah. Not just like
my favorite wines from worldwide. It's more.
Yeah. I think it's about 80% is
classic.
Yeah. And because I think if it's
Gallium Classic, it. It should be great. Otherwise it
(22:09):
would never get a classic example for area.
And yeah, it's like we do.
If we have wines from us, we have
Rich Montebello. I would say this is classic.
(22:31):
We do buy the glass at the moment. A wine
from Sonoma Coast. It's
Pinot Noir. Yeah. Pinot Noir from.
It's. I forgot the name.
Yeah, I don't. Yeah. Now I.
(22:52):
It's. We can get into the weeds about some of these.
Somebody's Let me ask you another question.
Do you prefer, and this is for the listeners, this is for the
listeners that may show up at a restaurant, a two star restaurant in
Hamburg or anywhere. Do you prefer
as a psalm that. Well, for instance, at Tour
(23:15):
d' Argent, when I was there, a beautiful list, obviously wonderful Bordeaux
and Burgundy on their list, aged as well. And I,
I just told the psalm, I go look, here's the budget. It was like
€450 or whatever it was. And I we like
Bordeaux and for this case just let the
psalm do their work. They know most of
(23:37):
the wines in the. Listen, in your case, you know everyone on the list because
you created it. But a lot of times the psalm walks into a current list.
Do you prefer that over or how do
you handle that? I mean like. Yeah, I don't know. This is, you know, spate
for Gunder with this. I don't know, not a good idea. So I don't. Do
you know, do you just let the client understand what you're
(23:57):
thinking and, but let them decide or you, or you. Do you prefer when
the client says here's my budget, here's the districts we like.
We're about to eat this, make some recommendations. I think
you would ever find something. If they tell you what they
like to drink, you can find
(24:17):
in, you can. Maybe you can find an
example what fits with the menu. What would
be mainly in the budget? The wine which would
fit the best. Yeah. And even if it's not
like a perfect match, they are, they will be
happy to drink the wine. As a
(24:39):
psalm. You prefer being able to. Sometimes I do.
Sometimes I say I, I, I would recommend
if it's like a course where what we did.
So again I. It is a Pinot Noir from
Marina.
(25:00):
Yeah. 21 vintage. And it is like that
is a really good example. We have a main course with Lamp
from Limousin and we do Pinot Noir
with it. And sometimes the people think with
lamp you should serve something heavier.
And I had a guest, he was drinking,
(25:24):
he, he thought about drinking a Syrah from
Barossa with it. And then I said if you
dramatic difference. And then I, I told him
that we are serving a Pinot Noir with it and if he
wants to have a Syrah with it, I would
(25:44):
have a wine from Amitash. That
that's not that you tell them that what they want to
drink is wrong. Maybe give them just a
little bit something what goes a little bit more in
the direction that they are happy.
Yeah. And even if the wines are Too young.
(26:06):
You should tell how do you like the wine?
Do you like it when it's still more on the fruit driven
side? Because this wine could age
longer. Something like this. I think you should.
Should always help the people to have more
fun with enjoying wine and food.
(26:29):
Do you think, do you feel like
that most people come to your restaurant, are educated in wine
or they prefer to rely on you
or they just want to drink. The standards, let's say you carry,
you know, the basic Bordeaux or the basic Napas
that they just run with what they usually drink.
(26:52):
I think we have all of them. You do? Yeah. Where are they
from? What's your typical client? American? We can't
say we have any typical client. We have a lot of people
from Hamburg because the people
love to go out in Hamburg and this is really a
good place. We are in the middle of the town
(27:15):
in a really nice. Yeah. Quiet
area and it's in the seventh floor so they have a
really good view. We have a lot of
people from Scandinavia, from Denmark.
Yeah. There are also sometimes people from us
traveling. The only thing what is not so good is that you
(27:36):
can't fly directly to Hamburg. You have to fly
to Munich or Frankfurt. Yeah. Or
London, Amsterdam. That's.
That's so it's not. It's a destination. It's a
destination to get the Hamburg. Yeah. And what's it famous for? What's Hamburg
famous for? As an industry. Do they have you know
(27:59):
glass or porcelain or. Yeah, we have the
harbor industry. It's like we
don't really do industry. It's more. We are
famous for logistics. Oh wow.
Yeah. And ships or. Yeah.
Like what's the.
(28:23):
Yeah, they. They are building ship something.
Oh, ship, yeah. Wow. Okay, so let's go back on the one I was. I
just wanted to. I haven't been to Hamburger. I thought maybe I'd find out what's
going on over there. Yes. There is a lot of. For
trade and for logistic. The city,
what we are famous for. There's a lot of.
(28:46):
This is going back to your training a little bit because
I've been reading recently I went back and found magazines
in the wine trade from the 70s around the Judgment of
Paris days. 75, 76, 74. And I'm reading these articles
from Michael Broadbent and Harry Waugh, these famed critics
and it's. They're very similar to what's written today.
(29:09):
Languages, you know, how they describe wines is a little bit different. You know my
father used to cringe at some of the descriptors I would use
because generationally we use different things but, but
it doesn't. It seems to me that the position of fine wine has never
changed, never will change. But there's a whole. And it just
seems like generationally there's a movement every time we're going to do this, we're going
(29:31):
to change the language of wine. We have to dumb it down, we have to
make it more approachable for people to understand. But it never
happens that way because in my opinion,
everybody comes to this point where they can go to a
Michelin star restaurant or even just a fine dining restaurant and listen
to a psalm that's properly curated a list
(29:53):
and enjoy a proper, honest glass of wine.
Have you seen any shift in your career from
when you started understanding wine to today's
consumption that people are not as educated or
more educated or more interested in pairing or
(30:14):
less interested in pairing? Have you seen any shift at all
in the contemporary consumption of wine? Yes, I think it
was after the lockdown. Yeah,
that should have been a lot. The people came back and they have
been highly educated.
That's true. They were drinking much more at home, weren't they?
(30:38):
That was so funny to see it. And it was
really interesting to see because I think
the average price of a bottle of
wine would we sold after the pandemic was
minimum 10 to 15 to 20%
higher than before. And the people, they
(31:01):
have been talking and they have been asking questions. I think they. Yeah,
okay. Maybe it was also because they have just been sitting at home
with their closest friends, our family,
and they really enjoyed going out and
talking to other people. And I think after this
period of time it was, it gave
(31:24):
a big push to the people to.
Yeah. To study and to read about
wine and to create a wine
cellar because they. That's really interesting you said that.
Yeah, because I think, I think contemporarily, I think the, at
least on. In social networking and other parts of the wine
(31:46):
conversation, you would hear people think the opposite.
And I, and I agree with you completely. We here at the. My
company was the original Wine of the month club, the original direct to consumer
business in America. And you know, we were, our sales were up
30%. And when the average, when
the average purchase back then was like let's say €20 or 20,
(32:09):
20, you know, $22 or so, they were,
they went to like $100 or 100, you know, and
I couldn't keep those in stock, you know. Yeah, same in our
place. I always struggle with buying wines. It's like
now I. I buy wine for a lot
of higher entry level price for the wines
(32:32):
by the glass, and then you just get 60 bottles and then they
are already sold out, and then you have to buy again. So. Yeah,
right. Easy wines. Nobody wants to drink.
Okay, that's really funny. Yeah, I'm glad to hear that because, like,
I don't like getting into arguments, you know, on social networks, because
it's really silly and it's just a waste of time. Yeah. But it
(32:54):
doesn't anger me. But it frustrates me that these conversations
are occurring when we know when you know, when you see it in your restaurant,
what people are actually doing. And as all the rest of it is,
you know, in English, we call lip service. Right. It's just a waste of words
because what the reality is, people are enjoying
fine wine. They are enjoying the conversation with you as the head psalm
(33:18):
to do that. And the other thing that's interesting to me, and I want to
ask you what's happened on your list?
And this is also generational. Yeah. In my father's store,
we had Boone's Farm, Strawberry Hill, we had. We had
Lancers and Matuse. And these wines that were easy to drink in the
70s, said White Zinfandel. And now we have these white claws
(33:40):
and these flavored sodas and, and. And ready to drink
cocktails, you know, eroding the base of wine
sales. But there are some movements, I think, that are kind of
interesting. Yeah. Organic, biodynamic, orange.
Do you have any. Do you even have a section on your list for any
of those categories? No, I don't have a separate section. I just
(34:02):
put them in the list. And for us, it's more that
we don't really have too fancy wines.
It's just like a little bit orange. Or even if
it's orange, it's still kind of clear and clean.
So. Yeah, right. And then, then we do like, we have a
(34:22):
Pinot Grigio from. From Trento,
from Foradori. What is pink?
And sometimes I say to my sommelier
team, I say, with some people, you have to tell them before
that this wine is pink if it's. And with
some people, it can be funny to. Don't tell that.
(34:45):
Well, that's interesting. You know, Grigio's got that pink skin
anyway, you know, so. But this is extended fermentation.
And, you know, there are a lot of people looking for a Pinot Grigio,
which is clear or gray in
color and which tastes not really
intense. And if this customer is
(35:07):
getting a pinot grigio, which is pink. Yeah, You.
You should tell him maybe better before if he was
looking for Pinot grigio with a really clear,
straight, crisp style. But
sometimes it can be really funny to see the reaction.
And then they say, why is it pink?
(35:32):
And then you have to start in a talk and then you can tell,
you know, it's a. A variety, which is pink skin, so it
should have a little bit color, and then it can be cool
to sell such a wine. Yeah, you know, there's.
There was a. Go ahead. Yeah. And sometimes the people, then they are
really happy and that. It's. That
(35:54):
Pinot creature can taste really intense and have
this juicy character and even some tannin
structure. Yeah. So here's what I found
through tastings here. Every
morning, every Tuesday morning for 35 years, I'd go to the tasting room, I'd stand
there at 9 o' clock, and the salespeople would come in and bring their
(36:17):
wares. And it was. It became sort of this temperature of what
was going on, the wine trade, whatever the sales people were bringing in. And I
was doing it every week. I had an understanding of what the
marketplace was being presented and what the consumers were. And of course, we saw all
the ebbs and flows. But what bothered me about not only the organic and
biodynamic movement, the orange movement was. It was
(36:38):
almost an excuse for the wine to be
a little too rustic, a little too edgy, a little too
rough on the edges. When you and I know,
the Burgundians, the Bordelaise, they were. They were organic by
nature, were they not? Before we. Before they introduced
pesticides and insecticides. Yeah. And. And so I found
(37:00):
this to be. Well, it's organic. Like, I don't. I still want to.
I still want a pleasant experience when I open a wine where
this organic, biodynamic or orange. Yeah. I don't want to have to
feel like I'm drinking it for my health because of some kind of
kombucha. Right. It still should taste
that. You want to drink more than one sip.
(37:23):
Yes, exactly. That was interesting. And I
also do. If I buy some wines which are
orange in style, I. I have a look.
If I put them sometimes in a glass for two days,
and if they oxidize too quick, I don't buy.
That's a really. I never thought. I used to put wines out, have them
(37:45):
pour. I'd come back in a few hours to see what happened, because
sometimes the flaws don't come out until later, but two
or three days. That's really interesting. Sometimes we do that if it's
really wine like this. And I think
orange should not be an excuse for faulty wines.
Yes. Yeah. And sometimes they sell wine more
(38:09):
expensive than single vineyard wines.
And it's a worse. It's not their best quality what
they put into the orange. So it
should be. It can be an interesting style.
Do you have good quality? Yeah. Since we're on.
(38:30):
On orange wine in Georgia, the country of Georgia's, you know,
probably the originator or at least, you know,
propagates that story. And I went to a
tasting. I went to a raw tasting. Not sure if you're aware of rods that
Isabelle from the Master of Wine from London.
Actually she's French, but she's from London. But she has this group and they go
(38:52):
around all over the world and they open. They have these tasting events called
raw. And so I went to the Georgia section
and there was that really old world version of their
orange wines. I mean Amphora untouched and just really hard
to drink. But very traditional. You know, it's not. It's. This has been going on
for years. And then there was a. Another table that was all proper
(39:15):
current technology, stainless steel,
clean version of the same types of wine. And they're two different things.
Do you see a consumption trend
any different? Let's say that 10 years ago, in other words, I asked this question
about orange wine, but I'm talking about even
(39:35):
old world Bordeaux versus New
world Napa. Do you see a trend or
how people are drinking? I think
the trend is that people want to know where
the wine is coming from and how it's made.
They are asking more questions what the people do
(39:58):
in the vineyard because now they know
how much some. Yeah,
let's say farmers. Not only winemaker, it's also with the
production of food that that's really. With the
vegetables that they spray a lot. And so the
people are a little bit more asking
(40:21):
or they are happy to hear if the winemaker is
working organic or maybe.
Yeah, certified organic. I don't know that
every. I don't think that everyone does really
understand the difference between
organic and biodynamic. But
(40:45):
I think that's something what our customers are looking
for. And they prefer more
the origin than a label.
I'm glad to hear that. Just with. With wine, with
champagne, it's crazy. So
because you have this really big group which
(41:08):
is drinking the. Just the small grower champagne.
But that's a really small group and we still have the
people who are looking for the big brands and
in this case they spend. They don't really care about
how much it costs. If they are looking for Krug or
(41:29):
Ruder Crystal or Boulanger
Couture enfant or. Something like this grand de
Champagne Comtesse. That's so interesting. I wonder
why champagne? Because I love champagne and. And they're pro. We were just.
In fact we just went and visited Monsieur Clovis
Tanger in champagne a few weeks ago and I
(41:51):
thought they're pros
at. I mean the champagne district is their pros at
making things feel like you're part of the group.
Even though, you know, VUV makes 25 million bottles or some. Whatever.
Whatever the number is be exaggerating probably but I always
been fascinated by the way they were able to position the style of
(42:14):
wine. And you always feel like there's something special going on even
though it's a mass marketed huge brand.
But. And I'm interested to hear that the consumer
is different. How they look at it is different than a regular
consumer. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. And I think sommeliers
or wine people, they are more focused on the small
(42:37):
grower champagne and as well some
sparklings from other places than France.
What is growing in Germany is German
sparklings. We do really good quality of
Meto traditional sect from Germany
from growers and as well the Austrian do
(42:59):
a great job. I've been tasting
something really nice from Jacqueline Baskin
from the Basque area. Wow. Or as well
from. From the. From the
penades in Spain. It's. It can be really great. Yeah, I
think that's interesting. You know one of the great.
(43:22):
What's the word? I'm not going to say failure. That's a little too strong. But
you know, Hans Cornell, when they came to Napa in the 60s
maybe before it was a great story of a German
influenced sparkling wine from the California that
I think through family there was. I can't remember the story exactly
but the. The families kind of fell apart and the whole. The
(43:46):
whole brand fell apart. But it was a very popular brand and it was a
well known story about the German immigrant who came to America to
make sparkling wine. Was it Tramsberg
or. No, it was Hans Cornell. Cornell,
yeah. So I'm glad you said this
earlier about people asking
(44:08):
the questions because in the marketing of wine
now is convoluted. It always has been in a certain case.
But when I reflect on my father's.
I'll show you this picture. This is my Dad's store
in 1975. He's standing in front of his and the imports
are in front of them and the domestics are behind him.
(44:33):
It was complicated then because it was relative, but
now the idea is telling
the story and certainly manufacturing techniques, farming
techniques, the history of the winemaker is part of the story.
Because I contend that when somebody buys wine on the
Internet, that that's not a story. I got it for 5 bucks a bottle or
(44:56):
10 bucks a bottle through some. The story
really comes down to what you're saying, which is people asking the questions
and that your list, you can tell a story behind
each wine on the list. Yeah, I think
that's good. That's the reason to go in
a restaurant or to go in a good wine shop if you have those
(45:19):
people. Yeah. You have to be the one who's
telling the story and to surprise the people.
Yeah. I just posted a. A sound bite or a
video bite from Steven Spurrier when he was on the show and I.
And the part I picked out was really interesting and I hadn't heard it for
a while, which was wine needs to
(45:42):
communicate. Yeah. Something.
And that's what I think. You might. And maybe correct me if I'm wrong, but
when you see a customer taste a wine and
they're eyebrows go up or their face changes or,
I mean, does that light you up when that happens? Does that make you feel
good? Sometimes I do. With some wines,
(46:03):
I think they are perfect with a course and you taste it
together and you think, oh, cool. Perfect match. And then you try to
tell the story. But if it's not a story, if it's not
a good story, after one week I say, okay,
we don't buy more of this wine. I need better stories
to tell. Even if that's our job.
(46:25):
Right. Yeah, it's. Sometimes it can be
really. Yeah. Can be really
boring. Then if. If the story is not that much
interesting. Yeah. Well, but isn't it.
Doesn't that just go along with the idea of what.
I mean, wine is consumer driven. We're. Our job as a seller is to.
(46:47):
It's to romance. It is to give people the story. But when it's all said
and done, it is a connection to your
soul and it is the reason people come to a restaurant like
yours to experience it.
That'll never. I don't think that'll ever change. Despite all the
noise we're hearing today about changing the
(47:09):
game of wine. I don't see how it changes. How do you change wine?
You. You can change. You can't change
it. It's 12, 000 years old or 6000 years old already.
Right? Yeah. You just tell you. I think it's always
about the people behind and about the areas where
(47:29):
the wine is coming from. And it's a lot of emotion. And
the good thing is the people are in the restaurant
or in a bar drinking and enjoying the wine.
They don't really think about what happens in the
world. That's also the good thing of
job of a sommelier. You are always
(47:51):
creating special moments for people
that they focus on the good things of the life
to enjoy to have this hedonistic
situations. Just what kind of aged
Bordeaux in Burgundy do you have on your list?
(48:14):
We have 85
Chateau Marco still. Wow. Yeah. Because
when I created the list from zero the good thing was
the people already knew me in the.
Yeah. The distribution. I
I I called everyone and said okay. The
(48:37):
seller is empty. What do you
have that's not good? Old vintages. And
it was really cool. So I had a really
good distributor from From Bavaria
who is negotiation for a lot
of Bordeaux. So we also have.
(49:02):
We do 86. We have
92. We have
98 Lafitte. We
have younger vintages of. But
let's say younger like 2000 and 2005 of
2005 Ponticanier. 2000 of flashbash.
(49:27):
Sometimes I do 2010. But it's up how long the
wine can age. And sometimes I also just buy
smaller charges. Like just six bottles if it's a good
price to put on the list.
Old wines from Burgundy. Yeah. Not
really. What we have from Roman Aquant
(49:49):
here is still some 2012 left.
Wow. Yeah. But not that much. We
have some wines in white. We have.
Yeah. Le Fl. Some of the Grand Cru
from 2014 because it
(50:12):
was. I don't remember in which year they had
a really small crop. And sometimes then they give
you all vintages with the new release.
If. If I have chances like this. I always
buy because the people are happy. If they.
Because I I hate to tell the people in the restaurant this
(50:34):
wine can be nice in 10 years. Yeah.
So do you. Do you appreciate it when somebody
orders a wine like that and they would you like to taste it? Because maybe
you haven't had a chance to taste. I do this all
the time. If I order something I think it's interesting. Obviously some
(50:55):
psalms will. They're going to smell it and taste it.
But do you appreciate it when somebody offers you go get a glass and
let's. Yeah. I always just take a little
sip and then I say cheers to the people and say I
will bring it somewhere and enjoy it
with a little bit time. Maybe I taste a little sip and
(51:18):
take my time when all the customers have left.
Because it Sometimes, yeah. Can take
too long when you spend too much time
just with. I don't want to show the other
table that I'm drinking with one table.
I just do like this. Thank you. And if
(51:40):
you want to share it with me, I would bring it
behind and I can give my colleagues as well a little bit
of that. That's what I prefer. That's very nice. Yeah.
I'm gonna leave you with the stock because we're already at 52 minutes. I know
it was very fast, but it's something to do
with your trade and what you're doing. And I'm sure you're in the same ilk,
(52:02):
but I. We were in Palermo and I. There was a psalm that
brought the list and there were two things that impressed
me. One, the.
The way he presented the wine, the way his enthusiasm
to present us and to display and to
decant and to check and to. And is the way his energy
(52:23):
was working. What it made me feel as just a client,
just a regular diner, that this
gentleman really appreciated the fact that we were there
and that we were. That we asked his opinion and that he
wanted to show this wine, whatever wines they were, didn't matter. We had two or
three different wines that there was something special going
(52:45):
on on his side of the table. And I. And
I. That's sort of almost a recommendation here
because wine is all about the experience
and the stories we talked about. But the way this gentleman made you feel that
you. That you were in his career to present that
wine and to make you feel like, wow, I really. This is really great.
(53:07):
Yeah. Was a really important. And he was. He was Albanian and he was
from. But it was. We were in Palermo and I. I've said the story a
few times. Is that like how you
feel about it? Like you want your diners
to just feel the energy that you've brought to the table? Yeah, yeah, for
sure. And I want to make a.
(53:29):
Share that with my colleagues as well. It's like I
always. When we do some
trainings with the staff, I tell the people that
it's not. We are not order taker.
We should surprise the people that they get a
special moment. We create really special moment.
(53:51):
The people should not forget that they have a reason to come back.
And even in this really difficult times when the people
are really looking at their money and
they don't go out like easily every day,
it's really sometimes if you go in a hotel
as we are, it's a lot of money what
(54:13):
they have to bring if they come and there
are a lot of other places and you have to
make something special what the others does don't do
and that they remember the people who are working there.
You should not be the superstar. You should feel them
(54:34):
that they are the superhero when they are coming
and then it is that they really feel like
coming home and give them a
good, good time if they are here. Yeah.
Excellent. That's right on. And that'll never change. And that is
probably why we do this in the first place, is to get people
(54:57):
to emote like that. It's been such an honor to have you on the show
and a pleasure and I wish you luck. And I'm not sure
that Hamburg is in our most
recent travels, but certainly if we ever get that way,
we'd love to visit you. But it's really beautiful.
Maybe not that much sun as in California, but we have a
(55:21):
lot of wind which blows the clouds away.
No, it's beautiful. It looks. Sounds beautiful. So I can,
I can send you a picture of, of our
place and maybe one day you come to
visit us. Yeah, would be great.
I have more time than I did and it's certainly going to be something in
(55:44):
the back of my mind as part of our wine bucket list,
how to experience food experience bucket
list. Thank you again for being on the show. Thank you. Bye Bye.
When we do some trainings with the staff, I tell the
people we are not order taker. We should
surprise the people that they get a special
moment. We create really special moment. The people
should not forget that they have a reason to come back. You should not
be the superstar. You should feel them
(00:22):
that they are the superhero. When they are coming,
sit back and grab a glass. It's Wine Talks
with Paul. Kate. Hey. Welcome to Wine Talks
with Paul Keane. We are in studio today at a blustery day here in Monrovia
in Southern California. About to have a conversation with Stephanie Henn from
Hamburg, Germany. She's the lead psalm at the five star Fontenay
(00:45):
Hotel as well as a master som introductions in just a second
you have a listen to a couple shows coming out. I have one show
that kind of blends immigration to America with the
pursuit of a wine career. This is with
Zaya Yunan and that's coming out soon. So have a listen to that but
not while we're here today. Here a conversation with Stephanie. Welcome to the show.
(01:07):
Thank you. Hi. You know, we were just talking
about Germany and, and the German wine scene and it's,
you know, I don't know that the American market is, is tuned
to it right now. We seem to go through cycles with, with
Riesling in particular, but other German wines as well, that
they were very popular. When I first started doing this in 1988 with my father,
(01:30):
we, we sought, you know, great Rieslings to present
to our customers and then they kind of fade away, they come back is how
is that market in Germany? Do we see the ebb
and flow of Riesling or because it's sort of the noble grape of Germany. It's
a rather steady appreciation. I think it's.
It was still. There was a time when
(01:53):
it gets really fancy,
maybe it was three years ago that the people really
have been crazy about old Riesling and
Riesling was really famous and now the people
are again interested in other great varieties. I think
at the moment it's really nice when they
(02:15):
have some Pinot Noirs. That's upward
trend that the people are interested about the quality
of the German Pinots and what we do, we
sometimes try to do some things which are not
in fashion at the moment. We show a
Sylvana from Germany. If you have international
(02:38):
customers that can be really interesting for them because
our German wine institute,
they are just pushing Riesling and Pinot Noir international
and Silvana is a great variety. What is a little bit
different because it's just grown in Germany and in
the Alsace and a little bit in the north of Italy. But it's
(03:01):
a really good structured grape and it's a wine
what you can show in. In restaurants
with food. If you don't want to change for
red wine for main course. Silvana can be a really good
possibility to drink one wine for a whole menu.
And yeah, we do it
(03:24):
sometimes in the win wine caring and yeah,
I think this is really good. You said something
interesting about German Wine Academy.
Yeah, and we were just talking about my father's certificate
to a seven day class called the German.
I forgot the name of it. It was the Wine Institute, I think. If the
(03:47):
Wine Institute. Right. So. But you're. You're a master song which
is the pent ultimate degree of. From the court of
sommeliers. And I know there are not a lot of women
that have this degree. There's one right here in my neighborhood, Elizabeth Schweitzer. She's
been certified for years. She used to work here actually
Wine of the Month club. But what, you know, why did you do
(04:09):
that? What was the pursuit? Was your family
in wine? Were you in wine? Was there just
hospitality? Seemed like an interesting place to go. Yeah,
it was. I was a lazy student,
so. Well, it's nice to admit that, you know.
So I finished school after 10 years and thought
(04:31):
working would be easier. Then I started
doing a training program in
the hospitality industry in a little hotel.
I'm born in a vine area. I'm born in Flanken,
so that's where the Silvana is coming from as well.
But I'm coming from a spa city. So
(04:55):
we have a lot of mineral water. Where I'm grown up
and around the city there are some
vineyards. So in the place where I did my
trainee program there was a one star Michelin restaurant
with a really good. The owner was really good
because we always had to try what we
(05:18):
served. And then I thought why do we serve
this wine with this course? Where is this
food coming from? And this was really the story behind
everything was so interesting that I started
learning. And because I was so lazy, I wanted to have a
graduation when I learned I wanted to have something.
(05:42):
Yeah, you're very humble about this laziness.
And then I started when I was finished after you
in Germany you do this training program for three years.
And afterwards I. I moved to other place
in a two star Michelin restaurant. And then I started
(06:02):
working together with a good summary and already
focused on studying about wine. And
then with. I think I was 21 or 22.
When I first signed for a German
sommelier program and
this was. They. They told me in three months it's, you can
(06:25):
have your exam and then
your sommelier and. But this was just a little drop on.
On the mountain or a little drop on
a hot stone. It was just the beginning of.
And then when I was finished with this program, I thought, okay,
let's continue and go on. And then I
(06:48):
started with the call of master sommelier program.
And then I thought, okay, entry level, the
introductory and certified. Okay, it's nice, let's
continue. Advance is really
good. So with the advance, it took me.
I had to go four times. No,
(07:10):
it was the third attempt. Then I passed.
So it took me three times to pass the
advanced exam. And I thought that would be the
highest level I could reach. And I was happy
with it because during that time I was working in a
freestyle Michelin restaurant as I had sommelier full time.
(07:33):
And then I thought, okay, maybe I'm not clever enough.
And advance is okay, it's good. Not that
much people on the market who have this
graduation. And then I'm stopping.
Advance is the, the level just before master.
Yeah, and it is, but it's kind of
(07:56):
difficult because you have to pass your
exam during three days and you have to pass
all the three parts, the tasting, the
theory and the practical. So you have to
prepare everything and if the
first day is okay and then the
(08:17):
next night you, you have the pressure for.
And it's just in one year that you have to pass. And that was
always when you are already tired. Because when you work in a
freestyle Michelin restaurant, sometimes it can happen that you are
tired. Yeah. Let me ask you, let's stop you there for a second.
Is that, was that a surprise that when you got
(08:40):
into being a master sawman running the wine
program at a three star restaurant, that, that, that amount of work.
And the reason I brought this up is I have very close friends
in the industry, of course, and they, they all work
in different types of locations where some get to go home at 8 o' clock
every night and some don't. And some work till
(09:03):
midnight. They got to clean up whatever they got to do. So was that a
surprise for you that there was so much effort to put into being the
lead psalm in a 3 star restaurant?
Not really. It was. I, I knew
before that you have to work a lot, but
yeah, it was and I
(09:26):
enjoyed the work because it was really on a high level.
And I think fine wine with really
high quality of food that was it was so exciting to
have every day working with a crazy guy
in the kitchen who has good ideas every day and
serving food out of trees. That was more than.
(09:49):
I was so happy to see how the people can be
excited about eating and drinking. So I did never
think about that. This is a hard work for me.
But afterwards it was just
difficult for me that if you do this job,
you don't really have enough time in your,
(10:14):
yeah. You don't have spare time to study and,
but you were lazy your life. But you're
a lazy student. How did you do this? I mean, yeah, I, I, it was,
I, I, I had to tell my
chef in that time that I'm going to leave because I wanted
to push for the master summary exam. And then I
(10:37):
just quit the job. Wow.
And, but that was, I was already five
years there. And he could
understand it because for him it was the dream to
achieve the three star. And then he said, I
can't say stay if you want to follow your
(10:59):
dreams and if you think you
don't have enough time in your head to
be concentrated for studying. And then I
think it was the best decision because it was long.
You should not work your whole life in a
(11:20):
free star or for me, I should not work in a
freestyle Michelin restaurant for my whole life because
I also want to live my life. Yeah. And not just
to help other people be happy. I like
to see how happy they are. And I love.
And that's still, I think it was also, even if
(11:42):
that was a hard time, it was also a good preparation for
the rest of my life because, and even for the
preparation for the master so many exam because I knew
that you, if you go push a little bit harder, it's, it
can be worth it. And you can
do more than you think you can. You can.
(12:04):
It's like if you prepare for a mother marathon,
you, you can, yeah, you can push yourself more.
Sometimes you think, okay, after 25 minutes, I'm
done. But if you, if you continue training,
you can be faster and you can do it
longer. Yeah. You know, that's interesting. Those are interesting thoughts.
(12:27):
I, you said a lot of things I want to kind of peel back here.
One of them is, and I don't think this is
unusual that you might choose if you're going to be in a
three star environment that you might be choosing between
pure your whole life being about hospitality. Yeah.
And your, and the rest of your life. I mean that. And it
(12:49):
seems like in today's environment, in order for three star restaurants to
exist with all the social changes and all the different post Covid
problems that. That they need to be more
efficient. They need to get the maximum value from their employees
and they need to maximize all the parts of their business. And that just
requires a complete commitment on the part of let's just say
(13:11):
the master Psalm or the psalm of the restaurant. And I.
And I sensed that we were at Tour d' Argent in Paris
a few weeks ago and. And I was looking around, watching the staff
and paying attention to the psalm and how he was working. I thought wow, this
is a serious commitment of your life
to hospitality to be. And you called it
(13:32):
fine dine or high level of dining. Is that.
Is that the way it feels these days to be in that environment?
I think it's
really. Yeah. I still love
this work. So we
are still having here good
(13:55):
restaurant in the hotel. We started in
2018 with the opening. So the good
thing after I left and I. After I started
with my preparations for my master exams
I had the opportunity to come to Hamburg. So the
freestyle was in Bavaria and I moved to Hamburg
(14:17):
and then I had had the chance to
do a opening of a five star hotel
as a handsomely with an empty wine cellar.
So that was. Wow. Normally we don't really do like
a. We don't write a master.
(14:37):
Yeah, like the master. Like the
master of wine they have to write an essay.
But for the master somebody's we. Our theory
part is just. Yeah. Kind of practical.
We just speak, we don't write. But what I did
I. For my preparations I could write a wine list
(14:59):
for a five star hotel with
two restaurants and two bars just
from zero. And I could do an international
wine list and I could. Nobody told me what
I should put on this. It was just carte blanche
and they trusted me that I am not going to
(15:22):
spend too much money and that I will do
it as the people like to drink.
I think and that was a cool thing. Too much money for. I'm
sorry to interrupt you but I think too much money for a restaurant tour or
hotel is a whole lot different than too much money to the Psalm. Who's
putting together the list? Right. I mean this. Yeah. What were your thoughts
(15:45):
when you were doing this list? This is a very interesting point because there's a
whole. I don't know if you're aware of some of the socialized issues with
they're calling it dumbing down wine and we need to change the language and I
don't agree with any of it. But it's interesting that you had to start from
scratch, create a list. What were your thoughts?
Because I mean, did you know who the Hamburg five
(16:08):
star hotel or the Hotel Fontenay. Yeah.
Client was? Yes. Or you were doing a sort of looking at
the whole industry of wine and say I need to represent it all. What were
you thinking? I thought because before I was in
Bavaria, I was working in a five star
hotel in Hamburg as a sommelier. Not as the head sommelier,
(16:30):
but I was working in the sommelier team. And so I thought,
okay, I know what the people are drinking. And I knew
that a lot of people have been also
visiting the place where I have been before.
So. And during my tastings I,
when I did my blind tastings, I had already a lot of wines
(16:53):
in my, in my mind, which I wanted to buy.
Because when you travel and yeah, when you,
yeah. Go somewhere, it's in the wine areas you,
you won. You already write down and you remember
years afterwards that this
(17:13):
wine should be nice on that place or and in Hamburg. The
good thing is we are in the north of Germany, so we don't have
any wine areas around. The people who
are living in Hamburg is. They are
open minded because it's a harbor town.
So you can bring wines from all over the world
(17:37):
because they don't really care if the wines travel by
ship. That's a good thing.
And then I thought that would be also really cool for my
preparations because I need to study about all.
Because I'm lazy. And then I had the
reason to study about all the wine areas about. Of the world
(18:01):
and to think about which wineries are
interesting wherever. And I
could do something. And I had this wine list to create.
And if you do it. Yeah, it was, it took me about
three months that I had to look for the
wines, talk with some distribution
(18:25):
people to save the wines in their cellar till our
wine cellar was finished that they could deliver.
Yeah, it's an interesting thought there
because I just was sitting with a restaurateur here in Los
Angeles and he was saying that his bottle sales were off
considerably, like 40%, which is more than most people are suffering
(18:48):
from. And he brought in a new song to
revamp the list. This is a Mediterranean restaurant. And he
decided to use all Mediterrane minds and get away
from the standards. Yeah. So which, and
you said something earlier where, where you notice what people were
drinking. And so is this a decision on the psalms part?
(19:09):
And you mentioned you travel the world. Well, like we were just in Sicily and
I got to take, you know, Masculaze. Yeah.
You know, I got to drink some of these Aetna Mountain wines and
things that you don't really see on lists here in America. And
so the argument I'm making is, do we look at
wine lists for what people are drinking, which is what you're
(19:32):
bringing to the table, having been in the field versus what you think
they should be drinking based on what's being made in the kitchen?
Do you have to balance this idea because you want to expose
your clients to the really interesting wines of the world that would do
well with the foods there. Yeah. Or you just whatever they want?
I think when it depends on
(19:55):
which part of the hotel the people are coming. We have
a two star Michelin restaurant in the seventh
floor of our hotel where the people
are drinking. I think 80% of
the people who are coming are drinking the wine pairing with the
menu. Oh, really? Wow. So this is really
(20:17):
good because I thought I do the wine pairing
out of the wine list. So I sell all
the wines. Like I try to
don't have two wines or
three wines from the same area in the wine pairing. And I just
do like a world trip of wines in the wine
(20:39):
pairing. And I usually have
one wine or sometimes two from Germany. Because if we have
international guests, they want to taste
what we have. Yeah. So. And in this
case we have, I think 80% of
the guests who decide for the wine pairing are happy to
(21:01):
be surprised. And if
the other 20% are
expecting. Get the wines
they know, sometimes you find it out after the first
wine already. Then you have to try what they like and then
they don't get the wine pairing. What is really
(21:23):
like the best pairing with the food. In this
case, we would have some wines by the glass which
are. Yeah. Good value
for everyone. And you would find different
things. Yeah. What we can do by the glass
and what I write with the wine list, it's
(21:47):
not a. Yeah. Not just like
my favorite wines from worldwide. It's more.
Yeah. I think it's about 80% is
classic.
Yeah. And because I think if it's
Gallium Classic, it. It should be great. Otherwise it
(22:09):
would never get a classic example for area.
And yeah, it's like we do.
If we have wines from us, we have
Rich Montebello. I would say this is classic.
(22:31):
We do buy the glass at the moment. A wine
from Sonoma Coast. It's
Pinot Noir. Yeah. Pinot Noir from.
It's. I forgot the name.
Yeah, I don't. Yeah. Now I.
(22:52):
It's. We can get into the weeds about some of these.
Somebody's Let me ask you another question.
Do you prefer, and this is for the listeners, this is for the
listeners that may show up at a restaurant, a two star restaurant in
Hamburg or anywhere. Do you prefer
as a psalm that. Well, for instance, at Tour
(23:15):
d' Argent, when I was there, a beautiful list, obviously wonderful Bordeaux
and Burgundy on their list, aged as well. And I,
I just told the psalm, I go look, here's the budget. It was like
€450 or whatever it was. And I we like
Bordeaux and for this case just let the
psalm do their work. They know most of
(23:37):
the wines in the. Listen, in your case, you know everyone on the list because
you created it. But a lot of times the psalm walks into a current list.
Do you prefer that over or how do
you handle that? I mean like. Yeah, I don't know. This is, you know, spate
for Gunder with this. I don't know, not a good idea. So I don't. Do
you know, do you just let the client understand what you're
(23:57):
thinking and, but let them decide or you, or you. Do you prefer when
the client says here's my budget, here's the districts we like.
We're about to eat this, make some recommendations. I think
you would ever find something. If they tell you what they
like to drink, you can find
(24:17):
in, you can. Maybe you can find an
example what fits with the menu. What would
be mainly in the budget? The wine which would
fit the best. Yeah. And even if it's not
like a perfect match, they are, they will be
happy to drink the wine. As a
(24:39):
psalm. You prefer being able to. Sometimes I do.
Sometimes I say I, I, I would recommend
if it's like a course where what we did.
So again I. It is a Pinot Noir from
Marina.
(25:00):
Yeah. 21 vintage. And it is like that
is a really good example. We have a main course with Lamp
from Limousin and we do Pinot Noir
with it. And sometimes the people think with
lamp you should serve something heavier.
And I had a guest, he was drinking,
(25:24):
he, he thought about drinking a Syrah from
Barossa with it. And then I said if you
dramatic difference. And then I, I told him
that we are serving a Pinot Noir with it and if he
wants to have a Syrah with it, I would
(25:44):
have a wine from Amitash. That
that's not that you tell them that what they want to
drink is wrong. Maybe give them just a
little bit something what goes a little bit more in
the direction that they are happy.
Yeah. And even if the wines are Too young.
(26:06):
You should tell how do you like the wine?
Do you like it when it's still more on the fruit driven
side? Because this wine could age
longer. Something like this. I think you should.
Should always help the people to have more
fun with enjoying wine and food.
(26:29):
Do you think, do you feel like
that most people come to your restaurant, are educated in wine
or they prefer to rely on you
or they just want to drink. The standards, let's say you carry,
you know, the basic Bordeaux or the basic Napas
that they just run with what they usually drink.
(26:52):
I think we have all of them. You do? Yeah. Where are they
from? What's your typical client? American? We can't
say we have any typical client. We have a lot of people
from Hamburg because the people
love to go out in Hamburg and this is really a
good place. We are in the middle of the town
(27:15):
in a really nice. Yeah. Quiet
area and it's in the seventh floor so they have a
really good view. We have a lot of
people from Scandinavia, from Denmark.
Yeah. There are also sometimes people from us
traveling. The only thing what is not so good is that you
(27:36):
can't fly directly to Hamburg. You have to fly
to Munich or Frankfurt. Yeah. Or
London, Amsterdam. That's.
That's so it's not. It's a destination. It's a
destination to get the Hamburg. Yeah. And what's it famous for? What's Hamburg
famous for? As an industry. Do they have you know
(27:59):
glass or porcelain or. Yeah, we have the
harbor industry. It's like we
don't really do industry. It's more. We are
famous for logistics. Oh wow.
Yeah. And ships or. Yeah.
Like what's the.
(28:23):
Yeah, they. They are building ship something.
Oh, ship, yeah. Wow. Okay, so let's go back on the one I was. I
just wanted to. I haven't been to Hamburger. I thought maybe I'd find out what's
going on over there. Yes. There is a lot of. For
trade and for logistic. The city,
what we are famous for. There's a lot of.
(28:46):
This is going back to your training a little bit because
I've been reading recently I went back and found magazines
in the wine trade from the 70s around the Judgment of
Paris days. 75, 76, 74. And I'm reading these articles
from Michael Broadbent and Harry Waugh, these famed critics
and it's. They're very similar to what's written today.
(29:09):
Languages, you know, how they describe wines is a little bit different. You know my
father used to cringe at some of the descriptors I would use
because generationally we use different things but, but
it doesn't. It seems to me that the position of fine wine has never
changed, never will change. But there's a whole. And it just
seems like generationally there's a movement every time we're going to do this, we're going
(29:31):
to change the language of wine. We have to dumb it down, we have to
make it more approachable for people to understand. But it never
happens that way because in my opinion,
everybody comes to this point where they can go to a
Michelin star restaurant or even just a fine dining restaurant and listen
to a psalm that's properly curated a list
(29:53):
and enjoy a proper, honest glass of wine.
Have you seen any shift in your career from
when you started understanding wine to today's
consumption that people are not as educated or
more educated or more interested in pairing or
(30:14):
less interested in pairing? Have you seen any shift at all
in the contemporary consumption of wine? Yes, I think it
was after the lockdown. Yeah,
that should have been a lot. The people came back and they have
been highly educated.
That's true. They were drinking much more at home, weren't they?
(30:38):
That was so funny to see it. And it was
really interesting to see because I think
the average price of a bottle of
wine would we sold after the pandemic was
minimum 10 to 15 to 20%
higher than before. And the people, they
(31:01):
have been talking and they have been asking questions. I think they. Yeah,
okay. Maybe it was also because they have just been sitting at home
with their closest friends, our family,
and they really enjoyed going out and
talking to other people. And I think after this
period of time it was, it gave
(31:24):
a big push to the people to.
Yeah. To study and to read about
wine and to create a wine
cellar because they. That's really interesting you said that.
Yeah, because I think, I think contemporarily, I think the, at
least on. In social networking and other parts of the wine
(31:46):
conversation, you would hear people think the opposite.
And I, and I agree with you completely. We here at the. My
company was the original Wine of the month club, the original direct to consumer
business in America. And you know, we were, our sales were up
30%. And when the average, when
the average purchase back then was like let's say €20 or 20,
(32:09):
20, you know, $22 or so, they were,
they went to like $100 or 100, you know, and
I couldn't keep those in stock, you know. Yeah, same in our
place. I always struggle with buying wines. It's like
now I. I buy wine for a lot
of higher entry level price for the wines
(32:32):
by the glass, and then you just get 60 bottles and then they
are already sold out, and then you have to buy again. So. Yeah,
right. Easy wines. Nobody wants to drink.
Okay, that's really funny. Yeah, I'm glad to hear that because, like,
I don't like getting into arguments, you know, on social networks, because
it's really silly and it's just a waste of time. Yeah. But it
(32:54):
doesn't anger me. But it frustrates me that these conversations
are occurring when we know when you know, when you see it in your restaurant,
what people are actually doing. And as all the rest of it is,
you know, in English, we call lip service. Right. It's just a waste of words
because what the reality is, people are enjoying
fine wine. They are enjoying the conversation with you as the head psalm
(33:18):
to do that. And the other thing that's interesting to me, and I want to
ask you what's happened on your list?
And this is also generational. Yeah. In my father's store,
we had Boone's Farm, Strawberry Hill, we had. We had
Lancers and Matuse. And these wines that were easy to drink in the
70s, said White Zinfandel. And now we have these white claws
(33:40):
and these flavored sodas and, and. And ready to drink
cocktails, you know, eroding the base of wine
sales. But there are some movements, I think, that are kind of
interesting. Yeah. Organic, biodynamic, orange.
Do you have any. Do you even have a section on your list for any
of those categories? No, I don't have a separate section. I just
(34:02):
put them in the list. And for us, it's more that
we don't really have too fancy wines.
It's just like a little bit orange. Or even if
it's orange, it's still kind of clear and clean.
So. Yeah, right. And then, then we do like, we have a
(34:22):
Pinot Grigio from. From Trento,
from Foradori. What is pink?
And sometimes I say to my sommelier
team, I say, with some people, you have to tell them before
that this wine is pink if it's. And with
some people, it can be funny to. Don't tell that.
(34:45):
Well, that's interesting. You know, Grigio's got that pink skin
anyway, you know, so. But this is extended fermentation.
And, you know, there are a lot of people looking for a Pinot Grigio,
which is clear or gray in
color and which tastes not really
intense. And if this customer is
(35:07):
getting a pinot grigio, which is pink. Yeah, You.
You should tell him maybe better before if he was
looking for Pinot grigio with a really clear,
straight, crisp style. But
sometimes it can be really funny to see the reaction.
And then they say, why is it pink?
(35:32):
And then you have to start in a talk and then you can tell,
you know, it's a. A variety, which is pink skin, so it
should have a little bit color, and then it can be cool
to sell such a wine. Yeah, you know, there's.
There was a. Go ahead. Yeah. And sometimes the people, then they are
really happy and that. It's. That
(35:54):
Pinot creature can taste really intense and have
this juicy character and even some tannin
structure. Yeah. So here's what I found
through tastings here. Every
morning, every Tuesday morning for 35 years, I'd go to the tasting room, I'd stand
there at 9 o' clock, and the salespeople would come in and bring their
(36:17):
wares. And it was. It became sort of this temperature of what
was going on, the wine trade, whatever the sales people were bringing in. And I
was doing it every week. I had an understanding of what the
marketplace was being presented and what the consumers were. And of course, we saw all
the ebbs and flows. But what bothered me about not only the organic and
biodynamic movement, the orange movement was. It was
(36:38):
almost an excuse for the wine to be
a little too rustic, a little too edgy, a little too
rough on the edges. When you and I know,
the Burgundians, the Bordelaise, they were. They were organic by
nature, were they not? Before we. Before they introduced
pesticides and insecticides. Yeah. And. And so I found
(37:00):
this to be. Well, it's organic. Like, I don't. I still want to.
I still want a pleasant experience when I open a wine where
this organic, biodynamic or orange. Yeah. I don't want to have to
feel like I'm drinking it for my health because of some kind of
kombucha. Right. It still should taste
that. You want to drink more than one sip.
(37:23):
Yes, exactly. That was interesting. And I
also do. If I buy some wines which are
orange in style, I. I have a look.
If I put them sometimes in a glass for two days,
and if they oxidize too quick, I don't buy.
That's a really. I never thought. I used to put wines out, have them
(37:45):
pour. I'd come back in a few hours to see what happened, because
sometimes the flaws don't come out until later, but two
or three days. That's really interesting. Sometimes we do that if it's
really wine like this. And I think
orange should not be an excuse for faulty wines.
Yes. Yeah. And sometimes they sell wine more
(38:09):
expensive than single vineyard wines.
And it's a worse. It's not their best quality what
they put into the orange. So it
should be. It can be an interesting style.
Do you have good quality? Yeah. Since we're on.
(38:30):
On orange wine in Georgia, the country of Georgia's, you know,
probably the originator or at least, you know,
propagates that story. And I went to a
tasting. I went to a raw tasting. Not sure if you're aware of rods that
Isabelle from the Master of Wine from London.
Actually she's French, but she's from London. But she has this group and they go
(38:52):
around all over the world and they open. They have these tasting events called
raw. And so I went to the Georgia section
and there was that really old world version of their
orange wines. I mean Amphora untouched and just really hard
to drink. But very traditional. You know, it's not. It's. This has been going on
for years. And then there was a. Another table that was all proper
(39:15):
current technology, stainless steel,
clean version of the same types of wine. And they're two different things.
Do you see a consumption trend
any different? Let's say that 10 years ago, in other words, I asked this question
about orange wine, but I'm talking about even
(39:35):
old world Bordeaux versus New
world Napa. Do you see a trend or
how people are drinking? I think
the trend is that people want to know where
the wine is coming from and how it's made.
They are asking more questions what the people do
(39:58):
in the vineyard because now they know
how much some. Yeah,
let's say farmers. Not only winemaker, it's also with the
production of food that that's really. With the
vegetables that they spray a lot. And so the
people are a little bit more asking
(40:21):
or they are happy to hear if the winemaker is
working organic or maybe.
Yeah, certified organic. I don't know that
every. I don't think that everyone does really
understand the difference between
organic and biodynamic. But
(40:45):
I think that's something what our customers are looking
for. And they prefer more
the origin than a label.
I'm glad to hear that. Just with. With wine, with
champagne, it's crazy. So
because you have this really big group which
(41:08):
is drinking the. Just the small grower champagne.
But that's a really small group and we still have the
people who are looking for the big brands and
in this case they spend. They don't really care about
how much it costs. If they are looking for Krug or
(41:29):
Ruder Crystal or Boulanger
Couture enfant or. Something like this grand de
Champagne Comtesse. That's so interesting. I wonder
why champagne? Because I love champagne and. And they're pro. We were just.
In fact we just went and visited Monsieur Clovis
Tanger in champagne a few weeks ago and I
(41:51):
thought they're pros
at. I mean the champagne district is their pros at
making things feel like you're part of the group.
Even though, you know, VUV makes 25 million bottles or some. Whatever.
Whatever the number is be exaggerating probably but I always
been fascinated by the way they were able to position the style of
(42:14):
wine. And you always feel like there's something special going on even
though it's a mass marketed huge brand.
But. And I'm interested to hear that the consumer
is different. How they look at it is different than a regular
consumer. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. And I think sommeliers
or wine people, they are more focused on the small
(42:37):
grower champagne and as well some
sparklings from other places than France.
What is growing in Germany is German
sparklings. We do really good quality of
Meto traditional sect from Germany
from growers and as well the Austrian do
(42:59):
a great job. I've been tasting
something really nice from Jacqueline Baskin
from the Basque area. Wow. Or as well
from. From the. From the
penades in Spain. It's. It can be really great. Yeah, I
think that's interesting. You know one of the great.
(43:22):
What's the word? I'm not going to say failure. That's a little too strong. But
you know, Hans Cornell, when they came to Napa in the 60s
maybe before it was a great story of a German
influenced sparkling wine from the California that
I think through family there was. I can't remember the story exactly
but the. The families kind of fell apart and the whole. The
(43:46):
whole brand fell apart. But it was a very popular brand and it was a
well known story about the German immigrant who came to America to
make sparkling wine. Was it Tramsberg
or. No, it was Hans Cornell. Cornell,
yeah. So I'm glad you said this
earlier about people asking
(44:08):
the questions because in the marketing of wine
now is convoluted. It always has been in a certain case.
But when I reflect on my father's.
I'll show you this picture. This is my Dad's store
in 1975. He's standing in front of his and the imports
are in front of them and the domestics are behind him.
(44:33):
It was complicated then because it was relative, but
now the idea is telling
the story and certainly manufacturing techniques, farming
techniques, the history of the winemaker is part of the story.
Because I contend that when somebody buys wine on the
Internet, that that's not a story. I got it for 5 bucks a bottle or
(44:56):
10 bucks a bottle through some. The story
really comes down to what you're saying, which is people asking the questions
and that your list, you can tell a story behind
each wine on the list. Yeah, I think
that's good. That's the reason to go in
a restaurant or to go in a good wine shop if you have those
(45:19):
people. Yeah. You have to be the one who's
telling the story and to surprise the people.
Yeah. I just posted a. A sound bite or a
video bite from Steven Spurrier when he was on the show and I.
And the part I picked out was really interesting and I hadn't heard it for
a while, which was wine needs to
(45:42):
communicate. Yeah. Something.
And that's what I think. You might. And maybe correct me if I'm wrong, but
when you see a customer taste a wine and
they're eyebrows go up or their face changes or,
I mean, does that light you up when that happens? Does that make you feel
good? Sometimes I do. With some wines,
(46:03):
I think they are perfect with a course and you taste it
together and you think, oh, cool. Perfect match. And then you try to
tell the story. But if it's not a story, if it's not
a good story, after one week I say, okay,
we don't buy more of this wine. I need better stories
to tell. Even if that's our job.
(46:25):
Right. Yeah, it's. Sometimes it can be
really. Yeah. Can be really
boring. Then if. If the story is not that much
interesting. Yeah. Well, but isn't it.
Doesn't that just go along with the idea of what.
I mean, wine is consumer driven. We're. Our job as a seller is to.
(46:47):
It's to romance. It is to give people the story. But when it's all said
and done, it is a connection to your
soul and it is the reason people come to a restaurant like
yours to experience it.
That'll never. I don't think that'll ever change. Despite all the
noise we're hearing today about changing the
(47:09):
game of wine. I don't see how it changes. How do you change wine?
You. You can change. You can't change
it. It's 12, 000 years old or 6000 years old already.
Right? Yeah. You just tell you. I think it's always
about the people behind and about the areas where
(47:29):
the wine is coming from. And it's a lot of emotion. And
the good thing is the people are in the restaurant
or in a bar drinking and enjoying the wine.
They don't really think about what happens in the
world. That's also the good thing of
job of a sommelier. You are always
(47:51):
creating special moments for people
that they focus on the good things of the life
to enjoy to have this hedonistic
situations. Just what kind of aged
Bordeaux in Burgundy do you have on your list?
(48:14):
We have 85
Chateau Marco still. Wow. Yeah. Because
when I created the list from zero the good thing was
the people already knew me in the.
Yeah. The distribution. I
I I called everyone and said okay. The
(48:37):
seller is empty. What do you
have that's not good? Old vintages. And
it was really cool. So I had a really
good distributor from From Bavaria
who is negotiation for a lot
of Bordeaux. So we also have.
(49:02):
We do 86. We have
92. We have
98 Lafitte. We
have younger vintages of. But
let's say younger like 2000 and 2005 of
2005 Ponticanier. 2000 of flashbash.
(49:27):
Sometimes I do 2010. But it's up how long the
wine can age. And sometimes I also just buy
smaller charges. Like just six bottles if it's a good
price to put on the list.
Old wines from Burgundy. Yeah. Not
really. What we have from Roman Aquant
(49:49):
here is still some 2012 left.
Wow. Yeah. But not that much. We
have some wines in white. We have.
Yeah. Le Fl. Some of the Grand Cru
from 2014 because it
(50:12):
was. I don't remember in which year they had
a really small crop. And sometimes then they give
you all vintages with the new release.
If. If I have chances like this. I always
buy because the people are happy. If they.
Because I I hate to tell the people in the restaurant this
(50:34):
wine can be nice in 10 years. Yeah.
So do you. Do you appreciate it when somebody
orders a wine like that and they would you like to taste it? Because maybe
you haven't had a chance to taste. I do this all
the time. If I order something I think it's interesting. Obviously some
(50:55):
psalms will. They're going to smell it and taste it.
But do you appreciate it when somebody offers you go get a glass and
let's. Yeah. I always just take a little
sip and then I say cheers to the people and say I
will bring it somewhere and enjoy it
with a little bit time. Maybe I taste a little sip and
(51:18):
take my time when all the customers have left.
Because it Sometimes, yeah. Can take
too long when you spend too much time
just with. I don't want to show the other
table that I'm drinking with one table.
I just do like this. Thank you. And if
(51:40):
you want to share it with me, I would bring it
behind and I can give my colleagues as well a little bit
of that. That's what I prefer. That's very nice. Yeah.
I'm gonna leave you with the stock because we're already at 52 minutes. I know
it was very fast, but it's something to do
with your trade and what you're doing. And I'm sure you're in the same ilk,
(52:02):
but I. We were in Palermo and I. There was a psalm that
brought the list and there were two things that impressed
me. One, the.
The way he presented the wine, the way his enthusiasm
to present us and to display and to
decant and to check and to. And is the way his energy
(52:23):
was working. What it made me feel as just a client,
just a regular diner, that this
gentleman really appreciated the fact that we were there
and that we were. That we asked his opinion and that he
wanted to show this wine, whatever wines they were, didn't matter. We had two or
three different wines that there was something special going
(52:45):
on on his side of the table. And I. And
I. That's sort of almost a recommendation here
because wine is all about the experience
and the stories we talked about. But the way this gentleman made you feel that
you. That you were in his career to present that
wine and to make you feel like, wow, I really. This is really great.
(53:07):
Yeah. Was a really important. And he was. He was Albanian and he was
from. But it was. We were in Palermo and I. I've said the story a
few times. Is that like how you
feel about it? Like you want your diners
to just feel the energy that you've brought to the table? Yeah, yeah, for
sure. And I want to make a.
(53:29):
Share that with my colleagues as well. It's like I
always. When we do some
trainings with the staff, I tell the people that
it's not. We are not order taker.
We should surprise the people that they get a
special moment. We create really special moment.
(53:51):
The people should not forget that they have a reason to come back.
And even in this really difficult times when the people
are really looking at their money and
they don't go out like easily every day,
it's really sometimes if you go in a hotel
as we are, it's a lot of money what
(54:13):
they have to bring if they come and there
are a lot of other places and you have to
make something special what the others does don't do
and that they remember the people who are working there.
You should not be the superstar. You should feel them
(54:34):
that they are the superhero when they are coming
and then it is that they really feel like
coming home and give them a
good, good time if they are here. Yeah.
Excellent. That's right on. And that'll never change. And that is
probably why we do this in the first place, is to get people
(54:57):
to emote like that. It's been such an honor to have you on the show
and a pleasure and I wish you luck. And I'm not sure
that Hamburg is in our most
recent travels, but certainly if we ever get that way,
we'd love to visit you. But it's really beautiful.
Maybe not that much sun as in California, but we have a
(55:21):
lot of wind which blows the clouds away.
No, it's beautiful. It looks. Sounds beautiful. So I can,
I can send you a picture of, of our
place and maybe one day you come to
visit us. Yeah, would be great.
I have more time than I did and it's certainly going to be something in
(55:44):
the back of my mind as part of our wine bucket list,
how to experience food experience bucket
list. Thank you again for being on the show. Thank you. Bye Bye.
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