Americans Don't Make Sake. Unless You Are Ben Bell. Unreal Story.

I was approached by a PR firm to put Ben Bell on the show. Certainly seemed like an interesting thought. Afterall, domestic Sake is a rarity and one from the heart of Little Tokyo, Arkansas! (that was a little tongue-in-cheek humour).

There were so many questions and so little time. Some stories just require more questions and who wouldn't want to know how in the H-E double hockey sticks did he fall into making Sake in Arkansas.

Ben Bell might be the only person you’ll ever meet whose journey to sake mastery began not in Tokyo, but in Hot Springs, Arkansas—and includes a failed job interview conducted entirely in Japanese. You’ll be entertained, surprised, and utterly engrossed as you discover how this Arkansas native went from stocking wine shelves in Little Rock to apprenticing at world-class sake breweries in Japan, all the while learning a language many would consider impossible to master. In this episode, Paul Kalemkiarian draws out the remarkable story of how Ben’s early fascination with wine sparked a lifelong pursuit of drinkable discovery, culminating with the founding of Origami Sake right in America’s rice heartland. You’ll learn how technique, not terroir, is the soul of sake—why craft and style choices shape every bottle more than the field the rice grew in. Ben breaks down sake’s renaissance in America: from hot, mass-market pours at sushi joints to the nuanced, premium sakes you should really be tasting chilled, not warmed. You’ll hear what truly sets sake apart, why it defies the rules of wine, and how its food-pairing versatility can elevate everything from Cajun shrimp and grits to Arkansas barbecue. Want tips on how to actually drink and serve sake? Ben’s got you covered, and he’ll tell you why a wine glass in your kitchen may be the best tool for enjoying the craft. Most of all, you’ll realize that America’s next great beverage story might just be unfolding far from the coasts, where passion meets persistence and the art of sake is rewritten, one bold, Arkansas-brewed batch at a time.

✅ Ever wondered how top-tier sake is being crafted in… Arkansas?

✅ Origami Sake co-founder Ben Bell joins host Paul Kalemkiarian on Wine Talks for a wild deep dive into the rise of American sake and his journey from wine geek to sake master.

✅ From mastering Japanese in rural Japan to winning international gold medals—all from Hot Springs, Arkansas—Ben shares what it really takes to create world-class sake outside of Japan, why rice matters, and how sake breaks the rules for pairing with food.

✅ Takeaway: If you think sake is just for sushi night, think again. This episode will change how you see (and drink) sake—grab a glass and tune in now! 🍶✨

🎧 Listen to Wine Talks with Paul K. and Ben Bell—the story, the craft, the secrets of American sake pioneers!

 

#SakeCraft
#WineTalksPodcast
#ArkansasSake
#OrigamiSake
#DrinkCulture
#SakeEducation
#RiceToGlass
#CraftBeverages

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
What is the biggest factor for making quality sake
or making sake the way it is at any level of quality? I think number
one is technique. It's skill. So this is a
craft in the way that you know, painting a picture, that's an art.
Of course there's a lot of science when it comes to making sake or any
other alcoholic beverage, but it's a combination of those things. There's science, there's art,

(00:21):
there's craft coming together, there's skill. You're
making style choices. Sit back and grab a
glass. It's Wine Talks with Paul K.
Hey, welcome to Wine Talks with Paul K. And we are in studio today in
beautiful Southern California about to have a conversation with Ben Bell all the way out
in Hot Springs, Arkansas. Introductions in just a minute. Hey, have a

(00:44):
listen to a show I just put out. It's with Emily
Steckenborn. Sounds Chinese, right? Well she's the
LVMH representative for the ambassador as I called her
in China. Incredible insight and career path that she's carved out
for herself. And have a listen to that. But not why we're here today to
have a conversation with Ben Bell. I was going to say

(01:06):
Big Ben Bell, but I say Ben Bell of Origami
Sake in Hot Springs, Arkansas. He's the co
founder. Welcome to the show. Hey Paul, thank you so much for having
me. And just as a little note, I'm kind of
a short guy so I don't get Big Ben very much.
Maybe I got one more gross for it coming. I'm just fingers, fingers crossed.

(01:29):
One of my, my son in law's best friend is Ben and he's about
6, 5. So whenever, whenever I say Ben
I think of Big Ben. Anyway. Yeah, you know, a real big, a real big
Ben. Yeah. Thanks for being on the show. This is, you know, your, your
PR firm reached out to me and I thought this is so interesting because here's
this young man making saki in America which is,

(01:51):
you know, I've seen, I've had a few American sakis before.
But then Hot Springs, Arkansas, you know, triggered a thought
here. But we had a, we had a nice recall about what we were doing.
I said this is not your first rodeo in the wine, wine
or spirits world. Where did you come from? Yeah, that's right. I
mean I'm an Arkansas native and I

(02:13):
got a job in the drinks business. I guess the way you normally do when
you start out, which is you think you're, you're doing something else with your life
and then you get a job at a liquor store or get a job at
a restaurant and, and then I think that just hooks certain people. And
it hooked me on the wine side. And you know, after a few
years go by, it ends up becoming your career. So I did get a

(02:34):
job for what became Arkansas's largest retailer,
Shout out to Colonial Wines and Spirits in Little Rock. The. They had
always had a great wine selection and what really hooked me
into wine, and that was my first love, was
how it could be from being from a small town in Arkansas. This was my
way to touch different countries, different cultures around the world. And of

(02:56):
course, you know, you enter it through those wines on the shelf, but then you
get to food, you get to cuisine, and then you go out to culture, then
you go out to history. So that was, that was really my first love
in the drinks business. And it was the first thing I started getting professional
certifications in. So I, I did really start as a wine specialist and that
was about 20 years ago. You know, that, that's shocking really

(03:17):
frankly for me because, you know, the. Usually it's the
coasts, you know, the east and the west coast that are wine related. New York
has a specific level of wine shops and
they're one on every corner and they have a vast variety of
imported wines. And of course California, the hotbed of American wine. But
here in the mid part of the country hasn't

(03:39):
been part of the wine culture really. And
now you're saying 20 years ago you were doing this. No, that's
right. Yeah. I, you know, I think in terms of, certainly in
terms of production, there's not a lot that is
happening in the middle of the US But I think in terms of sales and
interest, you know, of course we are right next to Texas, that's a neighboring state.

(04:02):
Texas is a heck of a fine wine state and has been for quite some
time. They really, you know, of course Texas is an economic
powerhouse, but you know, craft
spirits, craft beer, fine wine, it's been a great market for that for a
while. And I really feel like, you know, Internet's been around
for a while now too. Great. There's always great books to get your hands on.

(04:22):
My first book was Windows on the World by Kevin Zarley. And then I got
into the wine Bible not long after that. Really, to me, access to the
knowledge wasn't so hard. And as long as you had, you know, enough good
distributors who were bringing some good things to pick from, you could put together
a good shop. And thankfully the owners of the shop that, that I worked
at, they met In Germany they had a love of German wine.

(04:45):
They knew European wines very well. So they had this unus
unusual interest, I guess in really high quality
wine and they wanted to show it off in Little Rock. So that was very
lucky for me. That's interesting. And you're talking about
cuisine and food pairings, which I have, I have a
very peculiar opinion of food pairing that sort

(05:07):
of substantiated by master of wine Tim Hani, I had on the
show. But you know, let's face that.
Also the Midwest is very specific in this food
thing. One of the things that's always interesting to me in the American food
scene is that, you know, you can get now
Texas chili and in New Hampshire and you can get

(05:29):
New England clam chowder in Los Angeles. And that wasn't always the case. You know,
the freeways, transportation kind of changed that. And
so the regionality of food sort of blurred all the
lines. But, but back then at 20 years ago,
was there a cuisine movement? Was there food? I mean it happened in LA in
the 80s, but I don't know what happened. So I really

(05:50):
think if you look, this is a thing I've thought about for a long
time. You know, what is the, what's the food
identity of Arkansas? Do we have a famous thing
that, that we are specifically known for? And I think you look around
surrounding states and you could pick out quite a few things. Texas,
of course, has Tex Mex, great brisket. Louisiana,

(06:12):
to the south, has Cajun creole food. Some of the best food in the
world in my opinion. My mom's Cajun, so I guess I'm biased. But I think
some of that food is easily some of the best in the world. The
Mississippi, Missouri, Kansas City, you got some
great, some great barbecue. And then on the drink side, I'm going to add another
neighboring state, Tennessee. Obviously this is the home of Jack Daniels and some

(06:35):
very fine Tennessee whiskey. So there are famous
food and drinks all around this state.
But Arkansas to me never really had something that had a strong
identity like that. Now I will add just a detail. This is, this will be
probably a surprise for you and a lot of people listening. I know
Arkansas, if you look at it on a map, it looks like a Midwest state.

(06:57):
But I will tell you from a food perspective and culturally, it is definitely a
southern state. So in general, if you want to just make this large
bracket of southern food and or so we're talking a
chicken fried steak, biscuits and gravy, shrimp and
grit, this is all very much the food that you will find In Arkansas at
a lot of, at a lot of places. And this is what folks like me

(07:18):
would, would grow up with. So I do love that fruit. But it's not very
specific to Arkansas. This is just the south generally. But the idea of
doing sake here was maybe something that
we could do that is based off of something that's. I don't know if
unique to Arkansas is the right word, but we're, you know, we're the, we're the
top producer of rice in the United States. And I do think that's a bit

(07:38):
of, that's a bit of education right there too. You know, maybe this
could be something that, you know, Louisiana's. No surrounding state is doing
this rice producing states. Now California is the
number two rice producing state. Definitely has quite a bit of sake
being made there, whether people know it or not. But that was
the impetus for what could Arkansas be about when

(08:01):
it comes to something that we can show off on the food and drink
side. That's a great segue into the sake conversation.
Yeah, so, yeah, yeah, sure. I mean, to me, it was also, by the
way, my like life segue from wine into sake.
Why make this move? Why are, you know, why would
me as an Arkansan even really be thinking about sake? I have no

(08:23):
connection to Japan. I also, this is a question I get quite a bit.
I didn't grow up watching anime or, you know,
Yeah, a real strong like, you know, I didn't kind of come to
it that way. To me, it really was still through the wine shop. It was,
you know, I had gone through, I think, my first level
quartermaster psalms exam and was getting more

(08:45):
into certifications. Got my certified
wine educator, certified specialist of
spirits. And so
I love, you know, a big range of categories. And I always liked the oddballs.
I always wanted to learn about wines from unusual, you know, regions.
And so I love, you know, some, some, some Zweigelt from

(09:06):
Austria or let's say like, you know, wines from
Juro were starting to be interesting at least in, in terms of being
on the, on, on my radar. And
let me stop because you, you're covering a lot of stuff on
it. We should stop and break it down a little bit. One of them, one
of the points is, you know, you, again, you're not in a

(09:27):
hotbed of, of wine and spirits territory about Lynchburg, Tennessee
maybe, but you know, you, you set upon studying
and learning and that's, you know, that's the beginning of this type
of process and that inspires you. Once you read one book,
if you Read the. The wine Bible or you. You picked up some
periodicals and now the Internet, of course, has tons of stuff. And that.

(09:49):
That seemed interesting to you. That's like, wow, this is. Or was it the
combination of being in a shop, tasting wines with the owners who had a lot
of passion for doing this, that all of a sudden it clicked?
The. I think it just let my. Being in a
place like that just let my imagination run wild. And there
were enough people pulling enough things. You know,

(10:12):
I wouldn't have known Zweigelt really if somebody wasn't
bringing. Bringing it in via an Arkansas distributor. So, you
know, shout out to whoever was bringing it in back then. I don't even remember
at this point. It's been a long time. But, you know, the. It
was having just. I, you know, I think a lot of this really comes down
to the people. If you get into a lot of these stories, there were the
right people who were interested enough to make a thing happen, bring

(10:35):
something in that's interesting, and if they weren't there, then maybe it wouldn't
happen. And I think that continues into the sake story.
It. It all got me where there
was enough things that, you know, I've always been kind of a
dreamer. And, you know, I went to a. I went to a boarding
school that was math and science focused, but I love the arts, too. I play

(10:58):
music and I love learning. I love digging into stuff. And
to me, there was just a lot of stuff to dig into. So it. It
really played into my. My strength and my desire to learn. Let
me. Let me take that one more step, and then we'll get back into the
Saki conversation. That's. That is. I just was playing back
a podcast with a gentleman named Chad Ludington, PhD, two or

(11:18):
three masters and mostly in history, but now he's become this wine
historian. And the way he was very articulate, he was very
conscientious about who he was talking to. You know, me.
Like, who is this? What is this guy know? He, you know, he's a lecturer,
right? By trade, he's a professor. And I thought, you know, I wonder if that's
the part of wine which is now the lip service we're seeing on the Internet.

(11:39):
A lot of. And LinkedIn and social networking. You know, we have to change the
language, we have to change this. We have to make it more appealable to the
general masses. Wine has always been the same.
Saki's got a renaissance here, and we'll talk about that in a minute.
But maybe that's the. That's the
positive part of wine, this academia, this, this idea. You can read about

(12:01):
it and every time you read something you want to read more about it and
that's the part. But that's also could be the part that turns people off because
it can be very academic and very snooty
and aristocratic, which I don't think it is
personally. It's just how you perceive it when it comes down to it.
Yeah, I, you know, I agree. Of course, I used to sell a lot of

(12:22):
wine and I'd sell, look, I loaded up a lot of trunks with cases of
Franzia. Also would sell some first and second growth
Bordeaux. That's the job, right? And I think
actually I had a great co worker who kind of, I think I was maybe
up in my own head about, you know, what wine should be and how
to talk about it and maybe was a bit snooty myself and I had a

(12:42):
good coworker. I'll give another shout out to my old
friend Jimmy Hamilton, who really put me on the right path of hey, when the
customer comes, when a customer comes in, you need to just listen to them and
whatever they're looking for, you need to help them find the best version of that.
Sometimes that is a case of Franzia, sometimes that is a super
obscure wine from the outside of Rhone or something like

(13:05):
that. It doesn't really matter. And then, you know,
I always viewed my job as to, from then on
to be the connector. You know, I'm going to connect people to what
seems like, you know, everyone who comes in is a blank slate.
And my job is to make things simple and,
you know, get them to what they would probably enjoy based on what

(13:27):
they're saying, kind of the fastest and the easiest and make it
approachable. You know, if you're putting up barriers, you know, for me, from
a sales perspective, you're going to lose, you're going to lose a sale or you
might lose a customer. Don't put up barriers, make it easier, make it more
approachable. And I'll add into that. Can you tell a story
about it? Can you tell good stories about, you know, the things that you're, that

(13:49):
you're talking about the place, if you know the place, if you did that studying
of, you know, the place, the people who's making it. You got some stories there.
If you have some personal stories, that's great too. The way something
is made. I've sold, sold a lot of scotch for Milo by talking
about the process of how it's made, right? So
to Me, any one of those things could be something to kind of latch

(14:12):
onto. But to your point, I think wine can be both ways.
Sometimes people want to just recite a bunch of statistics like
tonnage per acre and just really, you know,
rattle off a lot of numbers and a lot of terms. And to
me, it's. I know that that works for, for some people
because if it didn't, then why would every salesperson, you know, be

(14:35):
memorizing these things? But to me, it's. It should be more the
opposite. It should be more story focused, people focused, make it
more approachable, make it simpler. And I think
that's the way to go about kind of all these categories.
So you said something really important. Two things. One
was, yes, it's consumerism. My wine has always been about the

(14:57):
consumer. And so that's how the trends change. And we're in the middle of some
trends changing now. But you also said they're very important. That, which is my
trade. I grew up selling stuff. I sold for
Xerox, I sold software, I sold wine. You know,
so selling things has its. A technique,
so to speak. Not that you're trying to hustle somebody, but you're trying to understand

(15:18):
what their need is. And sometimes they don't tell you exactly what their need is.
And sometimes it's implied, and sometimes it's explicit. And if you're just a.
Whether you're in sales of, of a widget or whether you're selling wine
on the floor, if you're listening to the customer and
you're just satisfying the needs of the customer based on, you know, what you have
in your quiver to do that. And I think I get that gets lost

(15:41):
sometimes, Ian, I think the details you're talking about, tons per
acre and the, and the micronutrient exchange, the tap root and that's.
That stuff's the part that's intimidating. But you're not
going to change somebody's palate while you're standing on the floor of a restaurant, liquor
store, or a wine shop. And so you sell them what they need. And I
had a wine. One of my managers at one of my shops years ago was

(16:02):
a pro at that. You know, what are you drinking
today? And then he'd guide them to the proper thing, and
then are you interested in moving ahead on that, on your palate to the next
level? Yes or no? No, I just want what I usually drink. Okay, great. No
problem. I'll sell you what I have. So it's important. But
in the world of sake, which I will Tell you that neither

(16:24):
my wine shops that I've had here had had sake
in them. And I live in Southern California. I live near, you
know, right near Los Angeles. It was never a thing, but
it has had a renaissance, I'm gonna say 20 years
maybe that, that the idea of premium sake
emerged, that there's different levels of sake and that

(16:46):
the brewmaster's job. And I'm gonna, I made that name up. I'm not sure that's
the exact name is rather
important. So from your floor sales at
a wine shop into the appreciation and then now developing and
manufacturing sake, what that transition occurred because it
also was fascinating. Yeah, absolutely.

(17:09):
So the first bottle of sake that wasn't, you
know, some cheap mass produced sake, which the shop that I worked at
had. What I'm going to say is kind of the usual suspects of sake that
brands that you would get at a sushi or hibachi place all over
the U.S. you know, we had those bottles and I
didn't think much about them. I've had them before and I've had good times at

(17:31):
a sushi place having some. But
I've had some fuzzy times also with those. But
yeah, the. But you know, it wasn't something that made me think, oh, you know,
sake is interesting. It's a category that I really want to, you know, learn or
explore. But then one a bottle came into the
shop about 16, 17 years ago, something like that,

(17:54):
and it was. The price was higher. I'd never seen this brand
before and I was intrigued. Like I said, I like the, the to
dig into the oddballs and see what'
and this was certainly an oddball to me. And I'll
tell you, look, I took it home. This probably go into my not
strong connection to anything Japanese really. It looks like white wine

(18:16):
to me. So I chilled it in the fridge and I put it in a
white wine glass and that's how I drink it. Yeah. And I will tell you,
that is still how I recommend generally drinking craft
sake. There's other ways to do it, but I think that's a
very solid way to drink craft sake. I guess I just sort of lucked out
that way. But I had it in my thought, having that

(18:36):
sake and it was definitely. So you said the term premium sake
and I think that's great. I often use the term craft sake. I think
we're kind of conveying the same thing. It's something that is above the level of
mass production and we're really talking, you know, more quality and
care in what people Are making. So. But
do they always exist? At least not to interrupt you, but do they always

(18:58):
exist? Because I think what you just said a lot, obviously, again, chilling
sake and you're chilling the craft premium sake. You know, we go to sake
houses in the 70s and 80s and you know, you, it was always warm, you
did a depth charge, you drop it in a beer, you know, and you're chugging
it. So but, you know,
was that was that idea of mass

(19:19):
produced sake was that you warmed it up because you were
masking something and now you're suggesting chilling it because
you can get the nuances of a premium or craft sake?
I mean, that seems like I've been bamboozled all this time.
So I hate to dispel you or the

(19:39):
nobody likes the feeling of getting tricked. But I will tell you, it seems counterintuitive
that heating something up could actually mask flavors. But it does
work if you get to a certain temperature level. And
yes, that is one of the main things that heating up
kind of does. Now I want to add on to there,
there is some very fine sake, some of the best sakes in the world that

(20:01):
are also really wonderful warmed. And one of our
sakes right up here where I'm pointing to White
Lotus for anyone who can see this video. Yeah, this is our Nigori
sake. That is a wonderful sake warmed and we're very
proud of it. Now, at home, I still keep it in the fridge and I
still pour it into usually a wine glass. So that's the way

(20:22):
I like to drink it. But it is also fantastic warm. But I'll give you
my general hot versus cold advice. Warm sake. So, well,
let's say lower tier, rougher,
maybe let's say more robust. I'm going to add some nice terms on there too.
Robust, bigger flavor, but maybe also rougher, more
warmed. This is more going to be served warmed. And then when you get into

(20:43):
the craft world of sake, now we're going to be more
chilled and maybe chilled by default, but can exist in a
range. And my best advice for how to know that
easy mode is when in doubt, just chill it and you're going
to be right in the craft sake world. I'm going to say 95% of the
time. Now what you can do is this is my

(21:05):
best advice. A good bottle of sake should have a recommended serving
temperature on the back. Let's see if I got it right here. Oh, where is
it? Here it is right here. So you'll see, look, served warmed
or chilled, some people will actually Give a temperature range.
But yeah, look at, look at the advice on the back. To me, this is,
this is my, my best advice for that. Now when you get into

(21:26):
the highest, let's say class of sake, which is a category called
daiginjo, where they've polished the rice down a lot, they've taken a lot of fat
and protein off, which can give rougher, bigger flavors. Now
it's more delicate, it's more light. This style is almost exclusively
chilled. So you've gone from more warmed to we can play
in a range and you know, check the back and you know, see what they

(21:49):
say to pretty much just chill it every time.
There's exceptions to everything. But that's, that's, that's my advice. Now
to your question of how long has that been a thing? You
know, we all know mass produced hot kind of rough
sake in the US but just to give you an
idea of how long craft sake has been

(22:10):
made in let's say, Japan,
I would say, you know, some of the, there's technological things that happened in the
sake world that were real big quality jumps up in the
world of sake. And without getting into too much history, I'm going to
say around the year 1900
was when some, a few things started to

(22:33):
happen that really got a lot of producers into making higher
and higher quality sake. Rice polishing
technology, having that ability to mill down, take fat and
protein off the grain of the rice, get more starch, that gave you these
cleaners pretty your flavors right off the bat. Understanding
yeast and understanding how to isolate yeast. And as soon as that

(22:54):
happened, people started picking for strains of yeast that give fruity flavors and
aromas, which is key to our style. This
was a big development and that was definitely in the past 100 years or so.
The I'm 100 years is a long back.
So yeah, then it's not contemporary
because it seems to me, it seems to me that sake, like maybe

(23:16):
even grappa is probably the peasants drink at some point.
Actually it was the opposite sake, because rice was
actually rice was currency in Japan. It was so
valuable. Yeah, this was kind of during like the
feudal era era of Japan. You would pay for
things and you would pay your taxes in rice. And

(23:39):
making booze out of rice was considered to be
almost like the drink of, of royalty or definitely you would be
privileged to get it. Everybody would want to have sake. And it's not like you,
you didn't have to be royalty to have sake in Japan, but it was definitely
considered to be an elevated beverage. And the, like, the
methods for making it in the way that it's made now were

(24:01):
codified around 1500, 1600 somewhere around
there. And then, you know, there's been sort of jumps with
it. The. And then it coming to the us, I would say, has been a
phenomenon. For the past 40
years or so, craft sake has been, you know, sort of exported to the
us. I think what the US is seeing right now is Japan's been making

(24:23):
craft sake. It's just now getting exported and shown
in a way that never really was before. But I will say, you
know, kind of what I was alluding to with this further back history is it
wasn't always the case that Japan was making amazing sake per se, or the way
that we know it now. The, you know, it went through its own, you
know, series of changes. It's still a very dynamic

(24:45):
industry in Japan in terms of trying new things and, you know, growing in
category in quality. But now we are getting more and more connected, or let's say
Japan sake brewers are getting connected with the outside world more and
more every year. It's really accelerating, you're saying, you know, it's having its
renaissance and I really do feel like that is happening. And then part
of that renaissance is sake brewers, like us,

(25:08):
we are having access to the techniques to
make this very high quality sake outside of Japan, which
I have to say, I moved to Japan and trained at a sake brewery and
learned Japanese to do it, because that was impossible 10 years ago, but
now it can happen. Wow, that's a fascinating
part of the history because I think most people in America just look at,

(25:29):
as you go to a Japanese restaurant, you get some sake, because that's what you're
supposed to do. And what would be the. Then the
driving factor? And I want to get into this, your immediate
soiree into the industry. But what would be the driving
factor for quality? We talk about terroir with wine and the soil
and the continent, and I don't know how rice absorbs

(25:52):
its surroundings. Is it the polish, is it the quality of the
rice? Is it the hybrid of the rice, is it the yeast? Or is it
a combination of all those things? Yeah, so there
is a debate within sake about, you know, should the word
terroir be used? What does it mean in, in the world
of sake? I definitely have a. You're. You're about. You're about to get my strong

(26:14):
opinion about it. I don't think terroir is very applicable
to what makes sake. You know, the, the thing that you are
Enjoying, uh, rice itself, it's not as
sensitive to its surroundings as grapes are. Let's say out in the
field there are changes and you know, rice changes from year to year. But if
anything, in the sake world, you are working to

(26:36):
deal with the changes from harvest to harvest to keep making the same thing.
You're taking these differences in the field and you're actually changing your technique in the
brewery to make sure that, you know, whatever product, if it's our
White Lotus or Thousand Cranes, that, that always tastes the same and it tastes the
same as it did last year. In that case or in that
sense, sake adheres generally more to the concept of house

(26:58):
style as opposed to releasing vintages. And that vintages advantage is
going to give information to customers that, oh, this year is going to be different
than last year. Right. So to me, when you make a non vintage
thing, the expectation is it's always going to be the same and
sake is more like, let's say beer or spirits in this
sense where the, you know, a main release is a house style

(27:21):
and it's always going to taste the same and you do a lot of work
to get it there. So the real thrust and to better
best answer your question, what is the biggest factor for
making quality sake or making sake the way it
is at any level of quality? I think number one is technique, it's
skill. So this is a craft in the

(27:42):
way that. I don't know, this may sound like. Well,
I think in the way that, you know, painting a picture is, you know,
it's, that's an art. Of course there's a lot of science when it comes to
making sake or any other alcoholic beverage, but it's a combination of those things.
There's science, there's art, there's, there's craft coming together,
there's skill. You're making style choices.

(28:05):
And I would say the way that our sake tastes, this
is, this is 90% of the way it tastes are style choices
that we made to get to what it tastes like. So it's really more
about craft. I do not like using the word terroir in sake.
There's some people who are very good in the sake business who I very much
respect, who would strongly disagree with me, but I'm

(28:26):
going to put us on team craft for. Well, I think
that just seems to me on the surface there's more down
from a consumer standpoint, down the lines of a craft beer or
a premium bourbon or scotch in that I drink Heineken or
I drink Jack Daniels because I Know what it tastes like. And
that's what, that's what I'm looking to do. I'm not here for an

(28:48):
academic exercise in terroir because I'm having a Bordeaux. So I
think that's really a fascinating part of that. You, your,
your, your path wasn't so easy and I want to get to that
and then I want to talk about the segmentation of the market in America. But
you know, I just, it made me laugh a little bit. I, I
chuckled, I guffawed. I had a, your career path

(29:11):
to get into this and to be able to speak as eloquently as you do
about the, the subject was not the case always.
Yeah. So the, you know, I told you about
becoming a wine specialist and having that bottle of sake and then, well, what
came after that? So I went to, of course I
searched are there any sake professional certifications? And I found that there are.

(29:33):
The first one I got was the.
Oh, sorry. Certified sake professional certification under
a man named John Gauntner, who is a lot of people in the business, Their,
their sake teacher. And he got
me kind of connected with it, with a sake brewery. I was always this
guy who was flying from Arkansas, going to New York back then New

(29:55):
York, and New York still is one of the best cities in the US for
craft sake. The. I would be this guy
that just shows up to events from Arkansas. And I think for local people in
New York, it was amusing to say the least, that this guy
just kept coming for events. But to me, this was the only way to learn.
And then from that and from John in particular,

(30:17):
I got hooked up with a sake brewery called Mitobe Shuzo, which
I found out later is really stellar world class sake
brewery. And I remember talking with him, I, I wanted
to learn how to make it. I didn't want to just academically learn about sake.
You know, I already had it in my mind, Arkansas could be a place that,
that makes sake. So the,

(30:39):
I talked to the president of that brewery on the phone, Mitobae
san, and he said, yeah, can you, can you come in for an interview?
And I thought, okay, do you mean come into
Japan? Come into the country of Japan and then come to.
Yeah, yeah, right, yeah. They haven't built the bridge yet. So it's not. I can't
do the drive, but, but. So yeah, but you know,

(31:02):
in my mind, I think in a way that was really almost
shocking, but in another way, I think I knew exactly what he was asking for.
This was a test. I thought it was a test. And I Still think it
was a test to see how serious I was about it. Because
back then it was extremely rare for a
foreigner, and by foreigner I mean non Japanese person, to work

(31:22):
at a sake brewery full time in Japan.
So. And you know, he didn't know me and he probably didn't know where
Arkansas was or maybe he has ever heard of it. So the.
I wasn't coming from like a big restaurant in New York or LA or San
Francisco or coming from a famous winery. So the, you
know, who is this guy? How serious is he? I think even if you did

(31:43):
have that background, especially over 10 years ago, somebody would
still want to assess how serious they are. Because in Japan, you know, when someone
makes a commitment to bring you in, they're kind of making a commitment to
see your help, see your dream through. This is a cultural difference
between Japan and America that I think Americans often don't understand.
So there's an idea in Japan that they're very hesitant to, you

(32:06):
know, maybe start a business relationship or get into it. But I think, I think
what Americans don't understand is from a Japanese
perspective, when they say yes, they're saying yes to, to more than maybe
you realize. So you're going to get extra tested for, you know,
do they. Are you serious? And are you someone that they want to be involved
with? So I flew to Japan, got that

(32:28):
ticket as soon as I got to Tokyo Station. I'd been learning, you
know, some vocabulary and I thought, yeah, I'm. I feel like
this is a classic dumb American thing. I didn't know what it really was like
to learn a second language. So I thought, oh yeah, I'll learn some words. And
then I don't know it somehow it's just gonna all pop together. And I knew
I wouldn't be good at it. But when I got to Tokyo Station, I was

(32:48):
lost. And a station attendant came up to me. Clearly
he could see just probably from the look on my face, I was lost. Said
something to me probably along the lines of, hey, where are you trying to go
in Japanese? And I got none of it didn't happen. And
I knew in that moment, oh, crap, I really don't know any
Japanese, you know, I can't speak it at all. And

(33:09):
then proceed to get from there. It took a while, but I got from there
to. Out to the country where this, this brewery was. And I think I
got maybe three, four hours of sleep. Got to the brewery the, the
next morning. And when I sat down for the interview, I really think the President
could tell from Our talking on the phone and our interactions that maybe.
Maybe I couldn't really speak Japanese. And this is on me. I think I oversold

(33:32):
what I could do with it. So
the. That's an American thing to do, too.
Yeah, of course. Yeah. Over. Yeah, right. Oversell. And then
was it fake it till you make it? These are. These are things that I've
really come to loathe. But the. So I sit down
for the interview, and this was the interview. He said, can you do this

(33:53):
interview in Japanese? And I said, no, because I knew at that
point there's no way it's happening. And then his response was,
oh, then you can't work here. And that was the end of the interview,
so. Oh, good. That was what, 30 seconds?
Yeah, I feel like it would be hard for an interview to be shorter.
Yeah. So. And then his thing after. And of course that felt like a gut

(34:15):
punch knocked the wind out of me. And. And then he said,
oh, well, would you. You're here. Would you like a. A tour?
And I was just like, oh, sure, okay, I'll take a tour.
And so he's given me a tour. Yeah, I mean, that was like.
It felt kind of heartbreaking, and I guess in the moment, you don't know how
to respond to something like that. But the,

(34:37):
you know, as we're doing the tour, I'm pointing out pieces of his
equipment. I'm saying, oh, this is. This is your fune press. You know,
this is done for this and, you know, this piece of equipment. And
he's like, oh, so you. You know how sake is made. And, you know,
to me it was like, oh, finally I get to show. Demonstrate some level
of skill and knowledge. I did. I, you know, I did have, you know, my

(34:59):
first level certification in sake, and I'm a pretty good student.
So, you know, he. I could see the gears kind of turning in his head.
And by the end of that, he said, look, you can't work here full
time because my crew just doesn't speak English,
so you have to speak Japanese or you really can't work together. And I think
that was actually a very reasonable thing to say in a reasonable request.

(35:20):
He said, but if you want to come back and train for two weeks, you
can come back and train for two weeks. And in my mind, that was the
door cracking open. And I said, okay, I'm going to take you up on that.
So, uh, I scheduled my advanced sake professional course, which was in
Tokyo the next year, and I was the only person from my class where
everybody said, hey, after this course, where are you going to go? My answer

(35:41):
was I'm going to go train at a sake brewery for two weeks. And that
was my first in. And then I got another even better
in via a sake brewery called Nambu Bijin. And that
was my real long term work. Two years at a sake brewery.
And, and that was thanks to Hot Springs sister city Hot springs where we're at
right now. Really? The sister city of hot springs? Yeah. In Japan.

(36:03):
In Japan, relationship through the mayor
or the city council or you just. Wow, that's
great. Yeah. I graduated from high school here, but I did not know about this
sister city relationship. And it was actually on an alumni meetup after I
came back from that two weeks of training, I was at an. I'll never
forget it. I was at an alumni meetup at an Irish pub in North Little

(36:25):
Rock having probably a pint of Guinness. And someone said, hey Ben,
you know, you've been to Japan, you like sake stuff. Did you know about this
sister city relationship? And I said no. And they said, oh, it's
a, it's a place called Hanamaki. And I started, of course I started looking it
up on my phone and I see it's in Iwate
Prefecture. And I'm like, well, I know from my sake studies that Iwate is home

(36:46):
of the, the Nanbu Toji Brewing Guild, which is the largest, most famous sake
brewing guild in Japan. And then I thought, I wonder how far Hanomaki is from
it. And, and I look up the guild and this
is the craziest coincidence. The guild is in Hanomaki. The
largest slackly brewing guild is in my high school
town's sister city. How is this

(37:08):
then? It was just, oh boy. Then I, I needed to, you know, talk via
those connections. And it was so man.
Fortuitous is, is, you know, probably couldn't. Get out of that
fast enough. Right. I'm like, you're like, you know, I. Got good on the
phone. Yeah. So I, I called the head of the sister city relationship
over here and you wouldn't believe it. When I talked to her on the phone,

(37:30):
she said, you know, believe it or not, we've actually. They've been looking for
someone on their side to come train and make sake
because of this, you know, this Nanbu Toji. Toji is a master sake
brewer in Japanese. Because of this connection
with the, with the brewing guild. And I thought I. Man, this
just feels like the best, unbelievable, the best connection you could ever

(37:52):
have. And I will say I think that they hooked me up with, among the
non butoji, you know, breweries, maybe the best one.
And it was. Changed my life, you know, two
years living in Japan. I learned Japanese. I got Japanese
learning the hard way, you know, you know,
immersion, full immersion. I think I got about three months of, you know, lessons

(38:14):
before my work actually started. And then it was make sake six days a
week. Seventh day, I was on the train for an hour to go do
my Japanese lesson and rinse and repeat. That was my week.
And I will say, in addition to working through the brewery and
working at every possible job you could have at the brewery, and they made sure
that I got to work every possible job. In the summer, you usually don't

(38:37):
brew sake so much because it's hot and you want cold, slow
fermentation in your tanks. So in the summer I actually got a job for
a few months working for the local farming co op, growing sake
rice. So I got to do everything from planting
the seeds, growing that up, bringing that finished,
you know, sake rice into the brewery and then the next season, you

(38:59):
know, whole batch. So I really got, you know, this agricultural experience
out of it as well. It was a deep, great experience.
And then for us, for Origami here, that company, Nambu
Bijin gave, has been giving us technical advice to
get our batches going. And even though we've only been selling sake for a year
and a half, I think it's gotten us to a level of quality that normally

(39:20):
it would take years or maybe even decades to get to if you didn't
have advice like that. So they've been really instrumental in helping us do what
we're doing here. I wonder if there's any other way. In
other words, you already reflected on sort of
the American mentality, the way we look at life, and, and
there, this is a difficult road to hoe. I've. I've learned a foreign language

(39:43):
on my own because I fell in love with the, the culture.
And if you don't do what you did,
it makes a ton of sense. That would take 10, 15 years to figure this
out. But you said, no, I'm going to three sheets to the wind. I'm just
going to immerse myself. And so I'm just wondering,
like, based on that comment, what.

(40:05):
And I always ask this question of vintners, like, do you think that a vintner
who spends 20 years in the same vineyard is going to make a better wine
from that vineyard than somebody that's worked all over the world? But being
that in for 20 years, in 20 different vineyards.
But in Japan, because it's such a local, you know, I
mean, seriously, I don't know how many different countries make sake, but clearly

(40:27):
the world's major majority of the sake made in
the world, this comes from Japan that's such a location sensitive
product that if you didn't do that that you
really, it would be almost a hobby at that point, like you didn't do
what you did. It's just never more than a hobby. To do it at a
high level to, to do it beyond, you know, glorified home

(40:49):
brews or mass production. The only way, I
would say a little over 10 years ago or so to really
learn the craft and learn it well, I think is to move to Japan
and go train at a sake brewery. And for a native English speaker, that
does mean you're going to learn, you know, top three or four hardest languages for
an English speaker to learn. So I, you know,

(41:12):
look, my Japanese isn't very good. So, you know, it's not like
I, I wasn't like some kind of language savant and really just picked it
up. I think I was on the same learning curve that a lot of people
would be in that position. And I think it takes, you know, I was there
for two years. To me, I think you need at least four years of
immersion like that to speak like the level of Japanese that I would want

(41:33):
to. Although, as I'm sure you understand, once you really get into
a language, you never feel like what you're doing is good enough. It could always
be better, you could always be doing more. And I'm
not shy to use my Japanese, as poor as it might be. When I need
to talk about what I need to talk about, usually I can get there. And
if I'm talking to someone who speaks some English too, then we can meet each

(41:54):
other halfway and really get through it. Now I will say
I, I have a bit of a cheat code on that, which is I hired
another sake brewer who also trained in Japan at the exact same time
that that I was and he lived in Japan for the better part of 20
years. So his Japanese is immaculate
and he is now our head brewer. I am really, I'm

(42:16):
more tasting, I'm more like quality control. I taste things
and make sure that everything that's going out is on point and it's where it
needs to be. I do not get my hands in brewing so so much anymore.
I can give advice and I can help out on things, but the,
yeah, now these days I'm more sales Now I'm back to sales where I started.
You know, it's. It's more talking and both, I will

(42:39):
say, a very strong added dimension of tasting.
And me and Justin, our head. Our head burner now. Justin Potts,
who's from Seattle originally, um, we put our heads together a lot
on what are we trying to make and, you know, where
does it need to go? That was a brilliant move because in order for
me to maintain my French and I. My father passed away, so

(43:01):
he spoke French. So I can't speak with him. I have to speak with somebody
else. It doesn't take a whole long time, particularly maybe after the
level you're at, to. To not forget, but just to have to re.
You know, realign yourself when you do it. Now you've got a built in, you
know, sort of tutor that Lee can have the conversation with. But I did want
to say something. There's a book that I read early on called Flirting in French.

(43:22):
It's about. It's an author who decided that he was going to immerse himself in
the language and the. In the French culture. And he did everything. He did the
pen pals and he had, you know, he had masculine. He had a pink
sticky on the feminine nouns and he had a blue sticky
on the masculine nouns throughout the house, the wall, the floor, the cameras or
whatever. And he said, I. The first thing I did, I went to

(43:44):
a seminar. And this seminar was an academic seminar on
language learning. And he said, the guy told us
we would never, ever speak
like an indigenous speaker. And I kind of
understand that, though he said it frustrated him and. And the story goes on. But
I kind of understand that you. In order to think in that new

(44:07):
language is the hardest part. You can
speak, I can have a conversation. I can go to the Paris. I can do
whatever I want. I can order food. I can. I can see how you're doing.
I can go to the hotel. I can do all that.
But to think it is different. Difficult,
for sure. And honestly, I had

(44:27):
thoughts along those lines of when I was going through the process,
am I thinking in Japanese? And, you know, the dreaming in Japanese actually
started pretty fast. And I will tell you, I can't speak for
everybody else. I did actually start
thinking almost exclusively in Japanese
within the first year of being there. But I will

(44:49):
just add an element onto that. I
purposefully avoided English speakers or people who wanted to speak to
me in English. And so
I wanted all of my surrounding environment and thoughts
to be in Japanese. And then I'll add on top of that when I was
thinking and talking in Japanese, I had the grammar structure and

(45:12):
vocabulary level of like a child. So the I'm
thinking in Japanese, but it's not sophisticated
stuff. The. And then sometimes, you know, I would hit upon a
word that's like, ooh, I need to use this word. I can't get there in
Japanese. And I'd switch back to English. Yeah. Maybe do some translation
and, and do it. But in my head I wasn't translating from

(45:33):
English to Japanese. And it's still that way to me now. When I
start to talk, I'm not even really thinking about it so
much unless I'm getting to something that I have to work on. But the.
And I, I do really enjoy that now. I think when it comes
to true native level speech like you're talking
about with, with French, the boy, there's nuances to

(45:55):
that. Right. When you start to pick up like a regional accent
and you know, from a place that you've never actually, you know, you know, really
lived at or you're not really from. Yeah. Right. There's nuances like that
where I think it's, it would
take so much work and you have to be really exceptional speaker
to really smooth out all of your native accent.

(46:17):
And for somebody to really just be listening to you and be like, I don't
know, if I close my eyes, I think I'm talking to, you know, someone who's
really like from this place. I can tell you Japan has some thick regional
dialects. So some people tell me that my regional,
the region where I stayed actually does come out in the way that I talk.
But it's not, not, not that they would mistake me for, for someone well, but

(46:39):
that's from the area. I, I, I get thrilled when people
ask me where I'm from. At least they know my accent's not an
American French accent. That's, that's, that's like progress, right?
That's pretty good. Yes, absolutely. Well, we don't have a whole lot of time left,
but I want to get, I wanted to get to the now the domestication
of sake and how you, you know, when you came back from this,

(47:02):
obviously at this point you decided probably while you're in Japan that this was going
to be a career you wanted and coming to America.
I'm just wondering if the logistics of starting a sake
house in Arkansas, no less. I'm thinking maybe it'd be easier
in California or New York because of the availability of equipment, et cetera.
But what would surprise you, the headwinds you

(47:24):
encountered when you came back to Arkansas and said, okay, there's rice
here, but now what do I do? Okay,
so this is such a good question. And I'm really just gonna. I think I
can just kind of bang off each one of these, so biggest
hurdles. And I know these so well because they're. They've been, you know,
every part of doing all of this continues to this

(47:46):
day. Equipment difficult, but I will say it's
not any easier in any part of the US Some
equipment, especially made in Japan for sake, and you're going to have to get it
from Japan or maybe try to get it fabbed in another country or have it
fabbed here. Those are really your only options. And
it's kind of the same no matter where you are in the US

(48:08):
there's specifically some pieces of equipment for making sake, where, if you get
it from Japan, it's probably going to be the best version of that equipment. And
really made for sake. It's also going to be the most expensive, and the lead
time can be pretty high. You just got to make this. This choice.
So equipment, yes, absolutely. I'm going to add on top of that,
skilled labor. How you heard how much it took for

(48:30):
me to go train in Japan. How hard do you think it might be to
hire other people who have experience making Japanese or, sorry, making
sake? It's hard. It's very hard. So
usually people in the sake industry, higher from
the beer industry, it could be winemaking. I would say around here it's going to
be more beer. And, you know, look, as long as you know how

(48:51):
to clean the heck out of a commercial facility,
well, that's half the job anyways. So the other stuff you can. You can learn.
But if you can clean a big stainless steel tank, this is a good start.
So the. Now some things do translate, like packaging, bottling,
caning. This is really going to be the easiest skill set to
translate, but yeah. So equipment, labor.

(49:15):
Let's mention that this is starting a business. So all of
the business, you know, issues and problems still apply. You know, you can
call me talent if you will, but you got to find a business partner.
You got to find somebody who really knows the mechanics of business, can
finance or get the company financed. And I will tell you, that part was so
hard for me, I actually kind of gave up for a while, or at least

(49:37):
I put it on hold. I tried for two years after I got back from
Japan in 2016 to get a company going, and
I never found the right person. I did meet someone during that time,
who ended up becoming the right person. But I
actually kind of gave up on that for a while, and I ended up moving
to New York and working for the wine and

(49:59):
spirits and sake importer Skernik Wines. And I worked there for
three years and then came back. And thankfully, Matt
Bell, who's the CEO now, who did finance the company,
we met at a bar and talked, and he never forgot this
idea. And after I moved to New York, I remember I got a phone call
from him that said, I want you to move back to Arkansas and

(50:20):
start this sake brewery. And my prompt response was, no,
thank you. I have a good job in New York selling sake now. It's
paid the bills. Way to go, Ben. Yeah. Yeah, right. Well, you can see I
didn't stick with that. So the.
No, he. He was serious. I. I didn't know him that well, and I didn't
know how serious he was. But the building that I'm talking to you from, without

(50:42):
me even saying yes to it, he bought this building. He was like,
hook me up with somebody who can make sake. So I started doing that,
and I came back to visit. And while I was back here in
Arkansas visiting, he said, hey, do you want to go see the building? And I'm
like, sure. So I come, I look at this building. It
was in rough shape back then, but it had the bones for a good sake

(51:03):
brewery. And I'm looking at it, I'm like, yeah, I could do it. And then
I felt that feeling come back, and it was so funny. On
the. We get into his car. We're heading back from Hot Springs to Little
Rocks about an hour drive. And on the drive back, he just turns to me
and he says, okay, so when are you moving back and joining me? Now, but
dang it, I am going to do it. So, yep, just gave my notice.
That didn't take a whole lot. Yeah, I guess not. I don't

(51:26):
know. Of course, it was my. My life dream. So, you know, it's
somebody just holding it on a plate for me. And look, it's been a. It's
been a hard road. It continues to be a very difficult
exercise. But honestly, even being able to talk
with you, talk with other folks, get the word out about sake
generally and what we're doing in Arkansas, this feels to

(51:48):
me like the dream being realized. And, you know,
we've got some accolades on. On top of that, we are Junmai
Daiginjo. Our top level sake just won a gold medal at the Tokyo Sake
Challenge. So we went back To o home country.
Got some, got some hardware, our thousand. First of
all, let me stop you there. So they allow first of all foreign entries, which

(52:11):
is really interesting. Let me give you. Yeah, let me give you an exception to
that. So we did win it in the
international category. I see. So that is absolutely.
Yeah, look, I'll put some, like some details on that.
The some. So the other sakes that won gold
medals were actually still made in Japan at very good craft

(52:32):
sake breweries. But they were international collaborations
actually, all with a champagne maker, chef
de cob, you know, like a head blender from one of the big champagne
houses. So in my mind, hey, I know it's the international
category, so not yet are we going head to head with, you
know, some of the best sake breweries, you know, straight up in Japan. I do

(52:54):
think that time is coming and there's some other competitions that probably I'm just not
thinking about and you can do that. But the still those sake
breweries, it was very famous sake brewery names in Japan
with like, you know, big head of champagne, you know,
maker, you know, like blending skill on top of that. So I'll take
that, I'll take, I'll, I'll take a gold medal. Yeah, that's a

(53:15):
phenomenal accomplishment if you think about it. You know,
think about in the wine world the amount of years and, and
level of understanding and processing and
you know, vintage to vintage to learn
enough to be able to topple. You know, people have been
doing that for a long time. That's really quite interesting. So what were the number

(53:38):
one then? Headwinds. Once you've produced this first bottle and
you've, you've taken to the street and we'll wrap up with the
Saba. What were the, what were the either
surprises that, that you saw in the marketplace when you
went out to sell your first bottles or was
it easier than you thought? Boy,

(54:00):
the. It's, yeah, nothing. Well,
here's short news. Nothing's easier than, than I thought it was going to be. It's,
it was a challenge. All of it's a challenge. The now I will
say the response generally when we pour our sake
we usually get a great response of I, you know, maybe
I've. A lot of Americans have had sake before, but it's kind of cheap mass

(54:22):
produced stuff. The general response, if they can taste it and this is an
important detail is wow, I didn't know sake could
taste like this. And now they're considering, you know, having sake on a more
regular basis and then, you know, from there we get into food pairing and I
love getting people out of the traditional Japanese food pairings or let's say
East Asian food pairings and give people the good news that sake can pair

(54:45):
with any food in the world. It's super versatile for pairing with
foods. So it's actually, I would say easier as a category to pair with food
than wine is. You just don't need to have all the kind of
rules and guidance that you have with wine. So that has been really
good. But you, you do have to create those opportunities for
people to taste or those opportunities for education to

(55:07):
happen. And to me that is part of, I view that
as still part of the, you know, mechanics of sales. And
it just, it, you just gotta, you still have to do that footwork. Yeah, I
think, I think at that point you just, you're now in the mix. It doesn't
matter where you're selling beer, liquor or wine, you are now
part of that process. And the three tier process in America is a pain.

(55:29):
And telling the story, I mean, it's all about the story. You said
something interesting though, that, that I, that I reflected on a conversation with Clovis
Tate and early on in, in this podcast, actually
it was about the idea that champagne was always
pigeonholed into the celebration wine. And he
said you should be drinking, you know, it every day like this should be

(55:51):
part of your, your regiment. And I, it is part of our regimen at home
to have champagne whenever we feel like it. Is that an issue with
sake that, that everybody thinks it's just a Japanese beverage
and that's your first line of, of objection is like, well, you know, I
don't, we don't eat that much Japanese food, so why would I drink? Yeah,
it's, it's okay. So you know, when you're talking about, you know,

(56:13):
like special occasion, this is, you know, it's an occasion, you know,
related beverage. In sake, the occasion often is just being at a
sushi place. Right, right. So it's not even. People aren't really cooking that much,
you know, Japanese food at home. No, the. So it really
is, has been really tied more to going out and you
know, having sushi and stuff like that. I would say top two,

(56:35):
top three, you know, points that we are sort of pushing is
absolutely not. You know, I remember selling champagne
and hearing similar talking points about champagne can
be for any time, bubbles can be for any time. And it's a very versatile
food pairing to I. It's in my top three food pairing beverages.
A good bottle of bubbles. So I was, I was absolutely

(56:57):
one of those guys who said, you can have champagne anytime now for real
good French champagne, just because of price. Usually my response
is if somebody would be happy to provide me with champagne so I could drink
it anytime, then, yeah, I'll let that. I'll let that rate.
But. But, yeah, no, definitely. We don't have a
lot of Japanese, you know, restaurants in the area. We're lucky to have a

(57:19):
few, you know, very good ones. Particularly there's one
in Little Rock that has been fantastic for us. The
people, you know, like I said, Arkansans have generally Southern
food. And, you know, if it's, if it. Sometimes it's Cajun
specifically. These are literally my favorite pairings with sake. And
I want to get people to drink sake with the food that they're having kind

(57:42):
of wherever they are. And like I said, it's. It's very easy to
pair sake with different ranges of foods. The same sake, the very same
sake can hit light foods, medium intensity foods, even
heavier foods. And because it has low tart acidity and higher,
let's say, umami slash savory as the base, you get this
like, with, like, pairing with the savory. And less tart acidity means

(58:04):
less stuff that can fight with different kinds of food. So this is part
of the mechanics of why sake is so easy to pair. It's a. It's a
huge part of it. And I really feel like when as that work is happening,
sake will just grow and grow. And I do think the end game for
craft sake is to take its place as one of the. The
real great categories, along with wine, beer, and spirits. And I know that's

(58:27):
very ambitious thing to say, but I, I've worked with all those
categories. I do really believe sake has got what it takes to do it.
Well, we're going to leave it at that. And I think the, the final analysis
on your story, which is fascinating, is Calvin Coolidge's
final comment, which is one of his comments was
persistence is omnipotent, and that none of this would happen

(58:49):
without your tenacity and desire and passion.
And nothing will happen in the future without that same tenacity and
passion to do it. And it does take passion. And
I've, I think every podcast I've ever done with anybody in the
wine and liquor business says that it's. That if
you don't have the passion and a philosophy that surrounds

(59:11):
that passion, it's just another job. And you can't.
It. It doesn't work that way here, just another job is not a
successful methodology. So.
Fascinating conversation. I hope I can do it again because I'd like to check in
in a year or two and see how things are going and what new
headwinds you encountered and how you overcame them. Absolutely. Yeah, I'd

(59:32):
be very happy to do that. I do think we'll have some interesting things to
say in a. In a year or so. And maybe I haven't been to Arkansas
for, who knows, forever, but. Yeah,
certainly try to swing into the plant when it happens.
Yeah. Come visit Hot Springs. It's a beautiful resort town. People are always surprised
when they come here. It's a nice city. And then there's always interesting stuff to

(59:54):
show at the brewery. So. Yes. Thanks again. Cheers. Yeah. All right.
Thanks, Paul.