If You Can Sell Coke, Can You Sell Wine? Courtney O'Brien Explains.

Sometimes when you speak to a consultant, you get consultant gobeldy gook. I can't tell you how many consultants I hired along the way at the WIne of the Month Club, but suffice it to say, most did not perform as expected. Why? Because selling wine is different than anything else in the world.  

Courtney O'Brien is different. She knows wine, she knows branding and she brings corporate America along for the ride.

If you’re looking for a lighthearted yet informative take on this episode of Wine Talks with Paul K, here’s a quick summary with a wink:

This episode is like a masterclass in beverage branding—with a side of humor and plenty of entrepreneurial reality checks.

Paul Kalemkiarian sits down with Courtney O’Brien, a seasoned beverage veteran whose resume runs the gamut from water (Evian) to soda (Coca-Cola) and finally to wine (Gallo). She’s done it all—from “chief bottle washer” to innovator and now, consultant helping wine brands rise above the “product” level to become true brands.

Key takeaways from their chat:

• Brand vs. Product: Courtney suggests most wines are “products”—not brands. A brand, she says, is more than the stuff in the bottle, it’s an idea that people can connect with and rally around. (If your wine label just says “red,” you might want to call Courtney.)

• From Big Beverage to Boutique Bottles: Courtney shares laughs and learnings from corporate giants (Evian, Coca-Cola) to navigating the regulation-laden world of alcoholic beverages at Gallo. Spoiler: Half her marketing tricks from soda didn’t work in wine because wine has A LOT more rules.

• What’s the hardest for wine entrepreneurs? It isn’t always what you expect. Sometimes longtime winemakers come to her saying, “Help! Sales are flat, my DTC costs are sky-high, and I don’t even know who’s drinking my stuff—other than my mom.” Courtney’s advice? Before you chase TikTok fame or try to ride every trend, ask yourself what you actually want to achieve. (Pro tip: “Sell more wine” doesn’t count until you know to whom, why, and how much.)

• Innovation means different things: Want to slap your fancy Napa cab in a can? Considering non-alcoholic offerings? Courtney says: it depends. Know your brand, your consumer, your goals—then you can decide if canned Merlot or non-alc Bordeaux makes any sense.

• The Experience Matters: Paul and Courtney agree that great wine is about more than taste—it’s about the memories made, the story told, and the setting. (Whether that’s a luxury tour in France or just a really fun dinner with friends and family.)

There are laughs about management consulting, fun asides about industry legends fronting bottles in grocery stores, and a nice splash of advice for anyone dreaming of turning their wine project into a lasting, meaningful brand.

In short: If you want your wine to be more than a commodity, make sure it tells a story, stands for something, and—above all—know who you’re talking to and why. And maybe leave the TikTok dances until after you’ve figured that out.

#winepodcast #winetalks #courtneyobrien #paulkalemkiarian #wineindustry #winemarketing #brandbuilding #winebusiness #corporatewine #wineinnovation #beverageindustry #winenews #entrepreneurship #brandstrategy #winelover #wineconsulting #dtcwine #winebrands #winestrategy #womeninwine

 

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
I think the vast majority of wines out there are products, not brands.
My definition of a brand is something that transcends the actual product.
Like it's more than just this right here. It's an idea that's
bigger than any given product. Sit back and grab a
glass. It's Wine Talks with Paul K.

(00:21):
Hey, welcome to Wine Talks with Paul Kay. And we are in studio today in
beautiful Southern California about to have a conversation with Courtney o' Brien.
Introductions in just a minute. Hey, have a listen to a show. I just put
out, Marc LaFleur. He is a portfolio
specialist in wine and we never at the Wine of the Month
club ever suggested you invest in wine as a financial means. However,

(00:42):
it has worked lately. So he is a specialist. Listen to him.
But now while we're here, here to have a conversation with Courtney o' Brien who
is the founder, president, chief bottle washer of
Outlier Initiative. Welcome to the show. Thanks.
I know that's, you know, I'm not trying to be belittle people when I say
it's the chief bottle washer, but I know what it's like to be an entrepreneur.
Yep. Do your own thing, right? Yeah, absolutely. Instead of being,

(01:06):
you know, I've been following what you're doing on LinkedIn and some really
creative conversations are emerging. And then
I noticed your background in corporate America,
which, you know, has it's great value I think when you come
to the table, particularly in synergistic
businesses. But tell me about that a little bit. You were with Coca Cola

(01:29):
and we talked a little history before about my response, my relationship with
Coca Cola. But was that your first big
corporate job? I've been in corporate my entire
adult life. So right out of college I went
into management consulting. Then I went big management consulting,
working for huge companies. Then I went back to grad school immediately after

(01:52):
that. I've been in corporate beverage for 23 years after that.
So Danone was the first global powerhouse that I
was with on Evian, reporting up through Paris,
then Coca Cola, then Ian J. Gallup.
Let me ask you that, did you? Because here's my, I was a corporate America,
but when I went to college I'm like, I am not going there. You know,

(02:13):
my dad was an entrepreneur. He was a businessman from I go, I am not
going to go to corporate America. I'm going to be an entrepreneur. And what did
I do? I went right to corporate America. And I'm so happy I did
because the lessons you learn there are, you know, they're, they're
refined, they're polished. They come with some bureaucracy, but they certainly come with
time tested. Yeah. Reality

(02:36):
is that your experience as well. I did not want to be an
entrepreneur. I was like the rule, which is so
weird because it's not my personality. But I wanted to go to the best
college I could get into. I wanted the best job when I got out to
teach me everything I didn't know. I really viewed that as a continuation of my
education. So that's why I went into management consulting. You get to try a little

(02:57):
bit of everything. After which business school was easy, honestly,
after I'd plowed through management consulting. But yeah, I remember getting a job
offer pretty early in my career to be like head of marketing for some
tiny little company. And I'm like, me, I'm not ready to be head of
marketing. I want to still be learning from people. That's like half of my
salary, essentially. I got the rest of my life to

(03:19):
do things my way and be in charge. And I am
somebody that gets in charge pretty naturally. But yeah, I
really viewed it as learning for many, many years. It was a
really good grace. What was it then that. Well,
you, you were in beverage with Coca Cola, obviously. And we'll talk about that in
a second, about sort of that idea of transitioning from

(03:41):
soda to. To the wine industry. But, you know, what
was it that attracted you to start in the beverage trade? Because
it is unique. Yeah, I mean, I. So I
was supposed to go work for ConAgra, their Southern California Orange county
operations. I had a job lined up after business school
at ucla and they reneged. Sorry, I didn't. I forgot

(04:03):
it was ucla. It was ucla. Right. We have the usa. All right, we'll. We'll.
We'll continue. Don't worry about it. And they reneged
on all of our offers. All of the MBAs coming from
UCLA that year, the week of graduation. So about seven of us lost our
offers. Wow, that's interesting. And I really wanted to start in
food and beverage. You know, I was just getting into brand management and

(04:25):
marketing. It was a career changer. I had an offer to go work
for a video game company. I also had an offer to go work for Disney,
where I did my summer internship. And I didn't want to do
those. I really wanted to start in food and beverage because I was convinced
that that was the best training for brand management. And I
wanted, at age very young, 26, 27 when I

(04:47):
graduated business school, the best foundational training
because I thought the smartest people had that. So I
pursued I was in la. I pursued what I could find
right out of business school in June, which isn't very much,
with no experience doing that. And I ended up getting a contract role with
Evian, who had their water operations in

(05:10):
Pasadena at the time. And so it was not
supposed to be full time. It was really just contract. They are not in the
business of training in the US in the water business. They have a tiny team.
But consequently I got the ability to do absolutely everything.
I ran a large part of their marketing and my fingers and everything
that they were doing in the US and it did end up being permanent for

(05:32):
four years or something like that until I went to Coca Cola.
Yeah, that's interesting because those are, those are
big brands and I suppose if you're going to bite off getting
into the beverage industry, go, I mean, just go right, just go right
to the top when it comes to the brand. Like, why mess around? There
weren't as many back then. I mean the soda shelf was Coke and Pepsi

(05:54):
and a little bit of seven. I mean the beverage world now is so
much more finally diced than it was
then. You know, that's kind of interesting. Thought it is
rather boutique ish. Now and then, however, what's it called, just sold for
$1 billion. Yeah. And, and you know, I think
it's not unusual, particularly in the wine business as well. And we'll talk about that

(06:16):
transition now. But you know, there's. To brand yourself
in the wine trade and to try and get shelf space and try to get
a house pour. Yeah. You know, it's a little bit different than
soda at that point. But yeah, man, what a, what
an opportunity for you to, to, to learn the fundamentals
of branding, to be with a brand like Evian. That's why, I mean that was

(06:38):
the biggest joke, right? Like how better to learn marketing than to go market water.
Yeah. Who would have thought, I mean, who would
have thought that water, like my wife won't drink anything but bottled
water. That's just the way it is. Yeah. And this was the beginning,
you know, this was back when everyone would say, oh, Evian. You know, if you
spell that backwards, it's naive, right. So I mean, it was like

(07:00):
Americans pushing back on there being a bottled
water industry and why don't we just all drink out of our taps? It was
good enough for my mom and this was, you know, so this had all happened
before I went and worked for them where who was like Michael Douglas in
whatever movie he goes up to the bar, he's like a recovering Alcoholic. And he's
like, I'll have an Evian, please. And he asks for it by name. And that

(07:21):
was kind of the original adult alternative beverage of, you know, he's
not asking for tap water. He's asking for a branded premium thing.
He can stand around and look good drinking.
Celebrity endorsement back then. That's pretty amazing, because
Evian, for a long time, and I don't know that it carries that moniker now,
and certainly this would apply to the wine trade, you know, was considered

(07:45):
sort of an aristocratic. Oh, very lux version of. Of water.
Yep. And then, of course, all the other brands came out, but. Right. For a
long time. Ooh. Oh, yeah, I drink Evian.
It was very premium in luxury. Absolutely. So you did that. I know
that was done before me, but yes, I definitely
carried that on. And we did, you know, so we were both a

(08:07):
global CPG brand and a luxury one. So, you know,
I had the opportunity to go to the spa in France
and to see the source of the spring and. Which is available for all French
citizens and giant swimming pool filled with Evian
and. But yet running two huge national retail
promotions per year and creating new bottle molds. And

(08:29):
I did the full brand management. What a great experience
it was. You know, you said the springs in. In France when we
were in Napa. Not that long. Well, it wasn't recently, but it was one of
my earlier trips. And Crystal Geyser had been running these ads on the
paper, you know, like on the radio, as if you were down the
street. Our neighborhood water people come visit us. So I did.

(08:51):
And it said, no visitors on the water.
Classic. Like, this is great. I drive all the way to Calistoga
to go see Chris Legend. Yeah, Calistoga. So you
transition out of corporate, and we're going to talk about sort of the synergy
between marketing, bubbly, sugar water and
wine. But you come out of Coca Cola and

(09:14):
Gallo's looking for someone to take a spot or you created that
spot. Yeah, I know. I got recruited by a headhunter to go to Gallo after
I was at Koch. And I ended up working for
Coke after Coke did the distribution agreement with Evian, moved to
Atlanta, was able to work on the launch of Coke Zero in the United
States, which was not supposed to be a success there was not like, oh, my

(09:36):
God, come work on the next big thing. Not that at all. It was
me. I would take the Sprite job if I were you, because Coke Zero is
headed toward disaster and you're just going to end up cleaning up after it for
two Years. So that was the. That was the water cooler conversation going
on inside Coca Cola. Like, it was the time they were throwing a bunch of
spaghetti. There was, like, no innovation then. It was tons of innovation and most of

(09:58):
it's going to fail, you know, And. And that was the time that there was
tons of innovation and most of it failed.
And that one didn't like the reformulation of Coca Cola.
No, that was before that. No Diet Coke. Plus, if
anybody remembers that Coke, Black Blak
Tab, Energy, all that stuff was right around the same time,

(10:22):
creation of Gold Peak, which is still around service.
Yeah, that was that time. Early 2000, 2005. So why did you take
it on? I thought it was interesting. And they brought
on a guy for the Sprite job. It's not like I had this choice,
but I did think it was interesting. And I mean, it was. They had

(10:44):
gotten 99%. The innovation team had created it. I wasn't involved. And then
when I came over, I was the first brand person. They gave it to me.
They're like, here you go. Here's the. Here's the product, here's the research,
here's the plan. Here's the marketing plan. They had done a preliminary marketing plan, and
I'm like, okay, I get it, I get it. Whoa. I don't get this marketing
plan at all. This is not hanging together for me at all.

(11:05):
And so I redid the marketing plan, which
marketing to me is 360. So it wasn't just
the promotion plan. It was a lot about the actual product
and consumer target and everything.
And that was a big chunk of how I started Coke Zero. That took the
first couple months, and then crossed my fingers and prayed that it worked.

(11:28):
And because we were losing distribution, when I came on, they had already gotten it
in, like, 100% of stores like they do, especially back then.
And it was starting to fall out. It was getting discontinued because it wasn't
moving. And so a couple months into that, I came in
and had to kind of take over that internal narrative. Wow.
What do you mean you want to expand it? It's not even moving, Courtney. We're

(11:50):
going to discontinue it. No, no, no. Let me come talk to you. So a
ton of it was flying around, talking to different bottlers, presenting why they shouldn't disc,
why it's so great, what we're going to do with it, and then
recreating the wheel and actually coming up with a plan on the back end, launching
it. So that was. That was my role for a few years. In building the
team. That's really interesting because it is like

(12:12):
a major player now in the world of Coca Cola. And,
and, but I like this marketing 360 idea and I don't think, I think that's
missed a lot. And we'll talk about. We're going. I made a note so we
could bring it to. Forward to what you're doing today. Sure. But you know, I
think a lot of times even in the sales world, it's it,
where's the magic hammer, you know, the magic nail I'm going to use and I'm
going to bust through the seams and it doesn't work that way. Right. You

(12:35):
know this plan and you have to have it, the functions working. You have to
be nimble, particularly now in this industry to, to switch that plan. But that's
an interesting thought and I want to, I want you to carry. That nimble tactics
solid and enduring underneath skeleton
who. Can I write that down? Yes,
I got a recording of this. It's okay. So you, so you get recruited from

(12:57):
Coca Cola to go into alcohol now? Yeah, we were talking briefly about
a winery that I knew the Fowls winery in and I
didn't, I didn't get a chance to look it up, but I will. That was
a Coca Cola executive built this beautiful winery dug in the
bedrock. Looks like the Flintstones would live there. And you know,
it was a Coke executive that thought that, you know, wine, I

(13:20):
could, I can sell liquid and so I'm going to try and do wine. And
it was a failure. I don't remember what the brand was. So
what was it that Coke saw in your,
the gala saw in your Coke experience that that made them think,
gee, this, this girl's got it going on. Well, at the time when I was
recruited at Gallo in 08, they were actively, you know, Stephanie, who's

(13:42):
CPG marketer by training, also was
actively trying to recruit more people that
had CPG consumer focused marketing
experience but could also
fit in at a family run nimble company. Not
Ivory tower syndrome. Gallo and the wine industry

(14:05):
are very focused on getting out there in the field. I mean that's
what Ernest Gallo kind of built his empire based on. I,
he's constantly out there in the field creating incredible in
store promotions, getting to know the operators, talking to
consumers and that's absolutely what we were expected to do. So they wanted
the best of CPG marketers but also able to

(14:27):
do that. So that's, that's what they saw in my experience. Well,
that's, you know, the gala is known for, for that.
Yep. I'm not going to call it guerrilla marketing, but certainly in store.
I think I told you a story about Mike Houlihan and barefoot that Gallo end
up buying ultimately. But his lessons to get
barefoot to be where it was when Gallo bought it was literally

(14:50):
following Ernest Gallo around. Like he'd see him in a store and I'm like, what
do you mean you see him in the store? He goes, yeah, he's fronting merchandise
in a store. And I'm like, wow, that's pretty amazing. Yep, yep.
That's a good example. Lots of lessons there. But
so that's, that's, you know, now we're in corporate America, we're in alcohol sales. So
you start to realize there's regulations, there's a whole different. Yeah, I mean, three

(15:11):
quarters of what I knew how to do, I couldn't do in alcohol. Yeah.
Because it's illegal.
A lot of our toolbox does not apply. Well, let me, let me ask you
this question because, you know, I went into when, when Cali Red
from Snoop Dogg came out, you know, and all of a sudden
I'm walking down the aisle at the market and I'm, it's eye height right in

(15:35):
the middle at 9.99, 11.99. I thought I, you know, that doesn't just happen.
But I thought that was illegal in the wine business as well, was to, to
get shelf space like that through coercion.
Yeah. I can't speak to how they got that shelf space. I mean, it's illegal
to buy it and yeah, if you
can show it just forces you to get more creative. And

(15:57):
I'm sure Coke is doing this nowadays too, as they get their
shelf space impinged on by these upstarts.
What is the velocity per square foot and what is the margin
per square foot that you're going to see with the extended margin given the
velocity of my products? So you make a business case
out of it instead of paying for it. You know, that must have been an

(16:20):
interesting shock for you because the margins
obviously are radically different between
a water based beverage and wine. Well, you know, it's funny, I think I might
have told you this last time we talked. I'm not sure. But at Coke back
in the day, anyway, I can't speak to now brand people did not manage
financials. We only managed

(16:42):
top line. We only demand. We did not because the bottler
situation. So we did not get into. How much extended
revenue are you making? It was only sell me more cases. Just
focus on driving cases, we'll manage about the costs.
All that it was. Was that different at Gallo? Very much. That's one of the
reasons I went. I wanted P and L ownership.

(17:04):
Says no one ever. So you decided that's what you want. Says no one ever.
I mean, I mean I'm just say that tongue in cheek. But look, you were
seeking this challenge. Manage my entire brand.
I wanted to be able to make trade offs and because
again, I think of things360 and I very much,
you know, once you are very clearly aligned on who is

(17:27):
your target, what you are selling them, what is
your unique point of difference, how much is the right place to
charge for that consumer for that product with the.
Not just to cover your own costs, but what is the ideal
price point given what their other trade offs are, what their other options are, what
you're trying to convey about yourself, you know, if Avion had just looked at

(17:49):
their costs or at tap water, you know, they wouldn't have priced themselves where they
did, you know, 9.99 for a bottle of water in your hotel room back 20
years ago. So I'm talking about that work and then
take the rest of it out. I want the ability to make the bottle
shorter or more elegant if I deem that that's the right thing to do to
tell my story. And I'll take it out of somewhere else in

(18:12):
my, in either my brand's P and L or my portfolio, if I've got
the whole portfolio piano to play with. So yes, I wanted the
ability to leverage it all. That's kind of the same thought I give
people when I was, when I was doing weddings here at the Wine of the
Month Club would be take a couple of bucks from the band and put it
back into the wine. Exactly. I don't want to go to a wedding. The wine

(18:33):
sucks. It's part of the experience. You know, you should be very clear what you
stand for and what you don't. So for example, I just saw There's.
We have two Starbucks in my town of 20,000 people.
Cowboy Town, not exactly a white collar
town at all. And only one of them can you
sit down. The other one has no tables and chairs

(18:57):
and they just erected a third one on the way out of town. Small
town like that. And it's built with its back to
the road. We're like, what is, what is that going to be? I can't figure
out what that's going to be. And finally they put up a Starbucks sign and
we're like, whoa, that would have been my last guess.
It's like the dumpster is facing the road. Like the back of the restaurant is

(19:18):
facing the road. And so everyone forgets this exists. And so we just
discovered it the other day. You can't even walk into this
Starbucks. It's only a to go Starbucks. Really.
So what does Starbucks stand for, really? Because I always thought it stood for
that third place. You know, the ability to go in, plug your computer
in. They've gone product.

(19:41):
They've gone product only. They've taken the outlets out of their stores. Half of
them. You can't even sit down, let alone walk in this. Like,
are you selling your coffee, which anyone can copy, or are you selling these?
So that's kind of what I'm talking about. About take out what you
can about stealing money from the band, but do not
take out what you stand for. And that's what you need to be clear on.

(20:06):
That's an interesting thought because
you went from Gala, which. Which I think. I think we're
saying in probably great advice for burgeoning
marketeers in the wine trade, or even a winery owner
proprietor who's trying to figure some of this out. And, you know,
I'm not sure there. There's answers to all the questions, but

(20:29):
they don't probably usually start out with an objective
and define who they are and where they're going. And I'm work
as I'm working on this podcast because I love to
do it and I do it for a reason, because I want to tell the
stories and I want people to understand wine in a different viewpoint.
But I do have an objective with it. Yeah. And

(20:50):
so I've sat down recently and decided, okay, I gotta get rid of
all the fluff and laser on what I've got
to do to get the objective done. But. So you leave corporate America with
Gala, which has got tons of resources. You've got your own P and L. That's
great. So you understand that part better in the wine trade, and you now land
on your feet as an entrepreneur and as a consultant trying to do this

(21:12):
in a very. I mean, you must run into
amazingly diverse sets of individuals who are in
the wine trade trying to make a name for themselves.
Yeah, it probably couldn't be worse. You know, time to do that. And
I've got stories to tell you on some people I've talked to recently. But
what is the number one thing that you look at when you find

(21:35):
either they come to you. Let's go this way. They come to you with all
kinds of Experience. I've been in business for 20 years. I've got this brand. It's
in so many locations. I only have so many placements and
I need help because it's changed. Yeah. Or they're coming
to you saying, I'm just getting started, you know, help me get started. Which is
it? Both. I work with both. Yeah. And I mean, honestly, that's what my

(21:56):
career has taught me. So I led innovation for
wine $10 and up at Gallo and invented Blue sky
things. So I'm very versed at that. And
at other points, at Gallo, I led huge portfolios of
brands, some of which were not doing very well. You know, whether they were acquisitions

(22:17):
that had been neglected and I needed to turn them around rapidly,
substantially. I'm used to doing both. And
honestly, the playbook is not that much different. So many times.
It's not just a band aid that these brands need.
I don't think band aids could possibly fix
or unless it's a serious wound, that in

(22:40):
this industry right now, It's a Global 360, like you're
saying, position in the wine trade that you've got to fix out where you belong.
Because you use the word innovation and it's driving me crazy. You probably see it
all the time on LinkedIn and whatever else you post, and I'm not sure what
it means exactly, except certainly in the Coke
environment where you can create brands and test and you've got this

(23:01):
whatever, Coke, black, and all these other things that you tested and they worked. What
does it mean to you then, when we talk about innovation in the wine trade?
Let's say I'm an established, you know, I've got my $150
Napa cab and I've got a Merlot and I've got maybe a Pinot and.
And I'm. I throw my arms up. My DTC
is good, but it's not enough. And I need

(23:24):
help. What, when you use the word innovation, what does that mean
to you at this point? It would depend on what you want to be when
you grow up. I mean, it would really depend on your strategy. What you stand
for is not all $150 brands are the same. You've got like Ashes
and Diamonds, which is super modern, sells out of their
D2C and on premise only

(23:45):
stuff with launch parties before it even hits the market. And
then you've got old school, you know, like a mile away.
It really depends on what your vision is.
What I do is I, I get an understanding of
who this brand is, who the

(24:05):
People are behind it. The publicly facing people or the founder.
If that's the case, what is kind of non negotiable. What's really.
It's like a person like get to know this person, then
get to know what they want to do and figure out a way to make
that happen. I can tell you what to do, I guess, but
I can't tell you without any kind of objection. I'm

(24:27):
looking to achieve X. Are you looking to double? Are you looking to be
back at the case volume in restaurants that you were in 2020? Are you looking
to resonate more with Gen Z? Are you like what are you
exactly looking to do? You got to get a little deeper than my
sales suck. Fix it. Do they
know? Do they, do they know? At this point I

(24:50):
would guess in my experience that they probably don't even know. Most of them are
farmers. Yeah, I mean the ones that come to me
generally, no, either
something I say resonates with them and they will
repeat that back at me
or they will, it's symptoms that they

(25:11):
know. They don't know the deep down cause of it, but they're
like my customer. Acquisition cost for D2C
has doubled. Well, who's your consumer?
I don't know. I've never really, I mean I could tell you right now who's
buying it. Are they the person that you think should be buying it? Well,
no. So then we start getting into a

(25:33):
conversation and we get deeper on the how can we
fix this systemically,
not just put a band aid on it. But it's very, really depends on the
situation. I mean I managed 25 brands. They all had their own
path, you know, at the same time period.
See it's a, I'm going to guess at this. It's

(25:55):
probably not a big, probably not a huge leap in my thing. But
when you ask questions like that like who's your demographic or
why your acquisition costs, where are you acquiring these people as a Facebook ad or
Instagram ad or what's your, your, you know what you're roas on this.
It's, it's probably not well known. I mean

(26:15):
in the sense of they don't want to manage that every
day now. I was, I was in DTC and that, that's all we managed
or tried to manage and I found most
consultants I went through and I'm going to sort of throw this back at you
and it's probably, I just thought about this for a second. You're probably, you would
be a completely different model. You weren't around when I was looking for a consultant,

(26:40):
they what I. What I was driving me crazy. It still does.
But I have my. My guard is up now is I
don't want to pay to educate the consultant on
what I do in the trade. I do because wine is so unique. It's got
such crappy margins, and there's such a small group of people
that would have respond to an ad that I spent money

(27:02):
educating them. And here you come along and. Yeah, I work for
Gallo and I've done this a lot, so I already. I understand where you're at
already. Yeah, I get it. And I was also trained as a management consultant where
we'd work for one industry one day and the other industry for the other day.
So I'm used to rapid learning. That does not take very
long. I actually just. Just worked for a

(27:22):
horse care company and now I know everything about horses. But, yeah,
it does not. It doesn't take very long. The thinking. The thinking's
similar. There's just a lot more nuance with the three tier
beverage system. But I've been doing that my entire career. I mean, Evian had
three deer. Okay. Three tier. How you motivate people, how you speak to
people, just understanding the economics, it's.

(27:45):
It's. Yeah, it's something that I know intimately. So, like,
was that kitchen show? Nightmare kitchen with random.
There's so many. Yeah, there was one. He goes in there, fixes, you know, it's
a big masses, and he chews out the owners of the restaurants.
Yeah, I know what you're talking about, whatever it is. And here comes
Courtney o' Brien, who's saying we got it all wrong here.

(28:09):
You know, first of all, we had to define who you are and what you've
been trying to do. Why'd you get in this business in the first place? And
now we have to shift. Do you know what success
looks like for you? Are you trying to get acquired by Gallo? Are you trying
to be the next Gallo? Are you trying to sell a couple
more cases to your neighbors? Like, what are you. Very different

(28:30):
tactics depending on your goal. That's a really interesting thought
because I get both in here. I've got the
people that think that, you know, cans, you know, 200ml
cans are the latest, greatest thing. I had a woman in here who, you know,
thought that she, if she put wine in a 375, it would be the latest,
greatest thing. And, and clearly those

(28:51):
brands, I want to delve into this clearly when they
come and sit here, as they would Come and sit with you. And
their. Their idea is to be bought by
somebody, to be that billion dollar Da. Or be the billion dollar. You
know, was it poppy drink? Whatever.
Those are two completely different approaches to the

(29:15):
world. Yeah. And I think that one, that version
of it, where I'm trying to make a billion dollars, completely removes
you from what is in the can and what is in the bottle. Am I
wrong? Again, I think of everything
as360. So what's in the bottle has to be singing the same song. It
has to be telling the same story and delivering on it. But again, it depends

(29:37):
on, I think, if you want getting it out in the open. Getting it
out. Sometimes you're like, I've got it in my psyche and I'm not going to
say it out loud, but in reality, I do want to be the next Dao.
Okay, well, just tell me that. Right? Because there's a lot
that you need to do then. And then that's where,
like, what you have to work with comes into it. Like, I want to be
the next Dao, but here's my constraints, here's what I've

(30:00):
got to work with. I'm situated an hour from
la, or I'm in the middle of Indiana. This
is what I make, you know, sound trend or it's not on trend.
Does it ring true? Like, what is everything you have to work with and what
are your aspirations? Like, if I told you I wanted to be a supermodel
and like, okay, here's what you got to work with, here's the things that might

(30:23):
stop you. Here's where you want to go, here's where I can get
you, and here's what it's going to take. And here's the best plan that's
curated for you. And this is the
model to get you there. And we can prove out how it'll get you there
in X amount of years. Because you must get people that say,
and I. And this part I respect, I want to talk to you about some

(30:44):
kind of innovation in a second. But you must get people say, look, I
just want to make the best wine I can
from this soil I'm given and the temperatures I'm given in the
terroir. And I want to express my family's values
in a bottle of wine. You take care of the rest. Does that happen?
No, because they don't come to me. I mean, they sound like they're happy with

(31:06):
their situation. Right. Like, if they
have problems. So if I
sell problems. So if they are not happy with where they're at. Then
they would come to me and say, I have a problem. If they're
like, I just want to express myself in my family's vineyards,
but I wish I was twice as big, that sort of thing. Or if they're

(31:29):
again as big, what do I have to do in order to make
that happen? I can see that happening. And that would be.
Or, you know, I've got this winery that's underperforming
and I'm doing way worse than my neighbors.
I don't even know if I should keep it. My retail business is in the
tank. My cost to run the winery every year is getting

(31:51):
more and more per case because my cases are down. Should I keep
it? Should I let it go? And what do I need to do to turn
it around if I keep it? That's a project I recently worked
on for a major wine company. Wow.
And so it involves a lot of quant, you know, modeling, understanding the competitive
set, understanding of trends, and then giving them a recommendation of what they need to

(32:12):
do to turn it around. Here's how much it would cost. Here's the break even
versus selling it. Which do you want to do? They chose to sell.
You must see amazing. Different models so far.
And just like, wait a minute, you know this, I've never seen this before. I
mean, you see the, there's charity based
wineries, there's of course the homegrown guy who made a billion dollars as a

(32:35):
surgeon or a freeway builder. Now he just wants to express his
brand. And corporate brands owned by Constellation or
Treasury or whoever that could get to work in their own space. And people have
a lot of different goals, like you're saying, like they've got a lot of.
Being in the wine industry is not as homogenous as it sounds.
People not at all are here for a lot of different reasons. So when

(32:58):
it comes down to that. That's an interesting word to use, homogenous. Because I think
the public in general, it's wine. I had that
conversation last night at a dinner. I went to a big dinner and the guy's
like, you know, I don't, I don't really. I don't really know wine and I
don't drink it because I don't know it, you know, which is the consumerism part
of our business, which is we. Don'T like scary things or things that make us
look stupid. Always challenging, they're always chat. Wine's

(33:21):
always been challenged that way, has it not? It's, it's this beverage that continues to
be there after thousands of years and. And it's.
I don't know that it's always been. I mean you look at my. I come
from Italian heritage. My grandparents were
not the most sophisticated people. He was a plumber, she worked in a
paper factory. And they quit to have babies in upstate New York.

(33:43):
But they always had wine on their. Ernest and Julio
Rosso or whatever jogged on the counter. They
didn't feel intimidated by it. You look back at the way Italians and
French use table wine. It is not
intimidating. It is an agricultural product that's
consumed on a regular basis. And you can buy a really

(34:05):
fancy version for special occasions and you can buy a regular table version for
every night drink on your porch. So that's kind of how I
think people in that generation. This would be like the greatest, what we call the
greatest generation in the U.S. but the further
you get away from it, I think the more kind of foreign it felt.
You know, the more you get away from your immigrant roots

(34:27):
in traditionally wine drinking countries, the more
kind of foreign and scary and confusing
you can see it as. You know, olive oil is
having a little bit of the same problem actually talking to an olive oil producer
who. Italians use it in everything. Like my grandma would
put olive oil in a pan and then figure out what she was going to

(34:48):
make for dinner. That's not the case with a lot of other
countries of origin. And now that we're a couple generations in,
they're having trouble resonating, you know. And I think it's somewhat similar.
And then you've got all these other forces in the United States that are
very elitist about wine. And wine is not
all the same. It doesn't need. You don't need to be a sommelier and drink

(35:11):
those types of wines in order to enjoy whatever level wine
you want to have tonight with dinner. Just like my grandmother did. She didn't get
flustered about it. No, but that's interesting thought. Everybody
certainly know this, but we had wine in our house all the time. That's my
dad was in the business. But I wonder if that's
what this, this generation is trying to say and they haven't really

(35:33):
been able to articulate. They just start talking about we need to innovate in the
wine trade. I leave I read a lot of magazines from the 70s
to see if I can glean what was from the seventies. Interesting. Yeah.
The. The Les. Well actually this patch Leslie Divan had a magazine
was precursed. All of the things you read today and it's.
You know, the articles are pretty similar, the language is a little bit different, but

(35:56):
you know, there is, it's a bunch of wine enthusiasts getting together, having
wine and talking about it. Yeah. And that's not all. That's. That's not the entire
group of wine drinkers. Right. Not by a long shot. Family was like that.
But is that what they're trying to do is to, is to
indoctrinate. Let's just take America for a second and
using the wrong words like innovation to get our

(36:18):
tables, our regular American dinner table to have a glass of wine on it.
I don't think that's the case, but I certainly would be a good idea.
I think the wine industry has never been on the cutting edge of marketing.
I think it's been product first for, I mean, and a lot
of industries are, you know, I told you I had an offer from Disney and

(36:39):
I didn't take it. The reason I didn't take it is because entertainment is
product first. You don't hear about the brilliant Disney
marketers. You hear about the brilliant Disney
creators and producers and the people that make
that product. It's a product first industry. That's why I wanted to work in food
and beverage, because outside of wine and other kind of

(37:01):
artistic products, it is a marketing focused industry.
Wine has never been a marketing focused industry. It has been a. I want
to express this. It's an agricultural product, just like beef
is not a marketing focused industry. It's arguably, you know,
on the lower end a bit of a commodity. So how do you create
brands becomes even more interesting because it's all

(37:23):
creativity and human psyche, especially
on the lower end with not that much difference between
some of these liquids. So I think the
people and when I was leading innovation at
Gallo, my charge what that meant was create
blue sky new brands, new to the world brands. This is not a line

(37:45):
extension. And what that could consist of
was up for discussion. It could consist of, like I said,
360 decisions. This liquid, this country of origin,
this bottle, this positioning, this name, this
consumer target, this label like every. And we're going to launch it in
this way, in this channel. All of those things were up for discussion.

(38:08):
But I think innovation is such a broad word. When
people say wine industry needs to innovate. We are selling
things in general in the same five serving glass,
breakable, unopenable by your hands vessel
that we did hundreds of years ago. That's true. But why?
Well, I don't think it's a lack of, of interest in

(38:31):
not doing, had a reason Right. It was, it was a
production decision for the best aging. But I mean, Sauvignon Blanc does not
need to be served in that aging vessel. How about
the recipe I just saw the other day where you put jalapenos? Yeah, yeah, I
know people are talking about that. I'm gonna help freeze there because I've noticed
the can section. I've had the pleasure and the

(38:53):
privilege to taste this, the same vintage wine at a
bottle out of a can. I've had the same. I've had the pleasure and the
privilege to taste the same vineyards grapes that made
an ice Pinot Noir from the central coast and its non alk counterpart.
And the can section of my local markets is shrinking.
And the non alk, you know, I don't. I'm talking about innovation

(39:16):
now. It's just we're focusing on those two major parts of innovation that are coming
out. Non alkal. I mean, non alka been around. I mean, Rodney
Strong's been making non al aerial for like, I don't know, since 89
or something. It's not new. It's new in mass
though, and I think it's new to the current group that's
discovered. So would you, would you recommend a winery? Because this is one

(39:37):
of the trends that we're seeing right now that you should maybe look into a
non elk version of what you're doing. Is it part of your innovation or is
that sort of contingent? We're going to hate this. It all depends
on what you want to achieve, who you are, what you
have to work with and who you're going after it. All of
those tactics, like when I work with clients, as soon as we sign and I

(39:58):
give them a share drive to start dumping stuff, they start sending me. Should I
do this? Should I do that? Here's my thoughts on TikTok. Should I launch a
non out? I'm like, I'm just going to file these. We're just going to let
them, we're going to let it sit there, get it all out and
then we're going to start with the basics. Who are you? What do you want
to achieve? What do we have to work with? Who's the consumer? What's the trend?

(40:18):
What are they drinking? And by the time we
get to looking at those, not that this takes forever, but
when we get to looking at those emails, they answer their
own questions. It's like, oh, well, yeah,
okay, this looks kind of silly now, now that we've decided X, Y and Z,
because obviously I would or would not do that. So it just

(40:41):
writes its own. Not every branch should be doing non elk.
Absolutely not. But no, I mean, it's a.
Who was I talking to? I don't think every brand should be doing anything other
than, you know, adhering to laws. I was talking about a chat. I was
talking to a chateau and Lon de Pomerol about this.
He was, yeah, we're thinking about going non elk. I'm like, what. I

(41:03):
mean, what. What value is that going to come to a chateau that, that you
can see Petrus from? To say we're now. Now kind
of entirely. No, but
launching one. It takes a lot of effort to produce a non alk
wine and. And then go market it because it sure does. It's a whole
new brand now. Right. Let's talk about that for a second. Your brander,

(41:27):
is that not starting over? If you decide to put it in a can
or put it like, is there any carryover from Chateau
XYZ in their non alk? Is there like,
oh, I drink Chateau xyz. So I think now I'm going to try the now
and out there can't be any crossover. So it gets to what the definition of
a brand is, which I know there's a lot of. I think the vast majority

(41:48):
of wines out there are products, not brands. Yeah.
My definition of a brand is something that transcends the actual product.
Like, it's more than just this right here. It's an idea that's
bigger than any given product. And to me, my litmus test
is it makes me want to quit my job and go start five companies to
deliver on that idea. And when it

(42:10):
really becomes a brand, that's my like,
tickling of an idea of a brand. When it really becomes a brand is
when other people can repeat that. When other people say, oh,
XYZ brand, yeah, that's about this. And it's
not just, oh, yeah, that's about a red wine from
whatever street. Right. It's not just about the product, it's about a bigger

(42:32):
idea. So if you look at it that way, there aren't very
many brands that Chateau xyz, it
stands for this in my mind.
So if you look at your question through that lens, does it stand for anything?
The vast majority of my labels do not stand for anything
beyond that actual product in

(42:54):
people's minds. And so if you do
like say, if you're whispering angel, maybe it stands
for premium. Reminds me of Miami beach.
Kind of like a celebrities. I've seen it served at these hotels
or it's Brad and Angelina's brand. And then they put one

(43:15):
of those in a can. Yes. I think your equity
carries over, but if it's not, then
you might as well just name it abc because it's.
Unless your guests at your property are. A lot of
them are asking for a non elk option because they're not enjoying
themselves with the rest of their party there. And it's kind

(43:37):
of more of a tactical decision to provide something for them
so that mixed parties will start, you know, attending.
I don't know that you want to put a lot of effort into creating another
sub brand unless it really helps deliver on your goals. That's the
key. Right. Because if clearly in this case
it would not have happened. He's right. Just trying to build his regular wine brand

(44:01):
and now you're gonna. There's no, like I said, there's no Venn
diagram in a brand like that. Certainly like you said, the equ. I like the
word equity in that whispering angel example. They would
carry over because they would see the whispering angel logo and they go now
or can or whatever you're doing. But for the most part,
much like podcasts, actually

(44:23):
a lot of the pundits in the podcast world saying hey, if you have a
business and you don't have a podcast, you're wasting your time. How are you going
to tell people about who you are? And it's like, yeah, but podcasts aren't an
answerly part of your business. It itself is a brand that you've got to go
figure out how to market on its own. You can't just. Absolutely. It's a time
consuming tackle funnel. I just said no to starting a new one with

(44:43):
someone. I'd like to, I like talking, I
like hosting, I'd like to do this stuff all day. But it's, it's a top
of funnel marketing tool. Right? It takes its
own set of marketing. It's a marketing tool you have to market and
it's time consuming and it's not for the faint of heart. It's something that once
you start, you should really keep going. It's not like, you know, you're just

(45:05):
like not going to feel like doing it for the least. It's not a, it's
not a campaign. It's a commitment. Right. I'm committed to it. You
know, you said something interesting about this and I'm sure you get this all the
time and your response is sometimes probably roll your eyes or raise
your eyebrows. Either way is you said it earlier
that as soon as you sign up a winery or

(45:26):
DTC company to do this. They start sending you their TikTok stuff
and their Instagram and you get the links and you're looking at. And. And
that's pretty granular thing to worry about at that point, is it? Not like
that's so sure you to analyze your Tick Tock feed at this
moment because you're, you've been just playing

(45:46):
shotgun approach to all this and now we need to sit out
and focus on the idea and then let's adjust Tick tock and
Facebook and correct me if I'm wrong and what you tell your people,
but, you know, my experience with doing all this was, you know, it's damned
if you do and damned if you don't. Are you, are
you young? Old enough. Young slash old

(46:08):
enough to know of Bewitched, the TV show? Yeah, I remember
Bewitched. Okay, so Larry Tate was the owner of the PR agency.
Right. The advertising agency and that. There's a very slow process. Then you,
you would go see Larry Tate and Darren Stevens and they,
he'd have his, his easel up there and he'd go through the pitch and then
you would approve the pitch and then you wouldn't talk. They wouldn't see each other

(46:30):
again because that was the way they used to do priority and that was the
way it. You marketed stuff. It was very slow and very
cause and effect. Now like, you can start
tomorrow, you can start in 15 minutes. You don't even need. You can have a
website in an hour. Yeah. So it's a different
environment and you can get lost in the minutia.

(46:51):
Yes. Trying to figure this out. Yes. And then realize, you know,
it really isn't that effective. Spend a lot of money very quickly. Yes. And then
go. I didn't really get anywhere. And there's no brand building. So.
So how do you, how are you talking to people? Where are you
finding yourself being moved into when it comes to
telling people about your wares? I see your post books. You're interested. Oh, my

(47:14):
personal marketing. Yes. I do the same.
No trade secrets here. I do the same thing I do for my brands.
So, you know, I, you know, I said to my husband
when I left corporate and started my own brand, I'm like,
there's a lot of the best marketers I know
don't say anything about themselves. They don't market themselves. And

(47:36):
then now that I'm on, you know, not my nose to the
grindstone, working 247 for one company, I
notice all these other people marketing themselves, but their Backgrounds
are just not there. Like, do they really have that experience?
No. What would happen if I combined those two things?
And so that's, I mean, you really have to put your money where your

(47:59):
mouth is. If you are selling marketing and you are not good at marketing yourself,
like, you just have to be. You can't be like a first grade teacher
who can't spell right. Like you, you have to put
yourself in there as a product. I. People
compliment me on my marketing. I'm like, what choice do I have?
Not only do I believe it, believe in it, and of course I'm going to

(48:20):
take advantage of it myself, but if I didn't do it well, that would be
horrible luck for my business, right? So I do the
same thing. What do I stand for? What? And that's why I love talking to
people about their careers too, because it's the same thing I did to myself.
What do I have to work with? What are my pros? What are my cons?
Who are my competitors? What are their advantages versus me?

(48:41):
Where are my target audience giving their attention? A lot of them on
LinkedIn. I sell B2B services.
And what do I want to be talking about? What's, you know, that's
way down the line. What do I want to be talking about? How do I
talk about it? Do I make a video? Do I put that video on Instagram?
That's like eight decisions deep. I don't need to be worrying about the video for

(49:02):
Instagram when I haven't even decided what I want to build, who I
want to talk to and how I'm going to say it can't. Be the shoe
man's son has no shoes. Right. Or in my case, the
CPA's husband's taxes are always late. I have
a contractor for a husband and our roof has been unfinished for years. Four,
five years. Okay, that's hilarious.

(49:25):
Well, it's an interesting point because. And I think part of this
is generational and you and I probably are not used
to talking about ourselves because you want to do the job
and do the job right and it's about the job and. But that's a lot
of best. People are just like, I'm just going to keep doing the best work
and people are going to notice me because. I am just not that way.

(49:46):
Particularly with social networking, which is a self branding
tool in the first place. Yep. As always was. It's very funny
because when I bring in younger generations here and they just
would have all these ideas and I was like, you guys, you know One of
the things you got to remember about social networking hasn't changed since it started,
which is one person tells 10 and that person, those 10

(50:07):
tell 10 and those tell 10. And all of a sudden you've told a hundred
thousand people. And you've got to remember, that's the point.
It's not about raising your flag and talking about how great you are all the
time. But then you're right, if you don't have the muscle behind what you're talking
about, the experience, to say I'm qualified to
help you here, then it's just

(50:28):
flag waving. People are not going to find out about you just because you're doing
great work inside corporation. And somebody tells somebody and somebody tells somebody. People
are too busy with their own stuff. Yes. You have to go to them.
Yes. Well, you're doing a great job. We're already at 51 minutes, which is
unbelievable. Thank you. This is fun and I
hope we can do it again. There's more to talk about and as you've.

(50:50):
As I peel back the things you're writing and talking about,
I'd like to bring it back on in a few months and see what has
moved, what's changed. Something will have changed by then, as we know.
Before we get off, there was one thing that I wanted to bring about
innovation, and I call it
experiential innovation. Maybe that's not my own word, but

(51:12):
when we were in Bordeaux last month, and not last month,
last, last May, actually, it's been a year already,
we went to Chateau Bailly and had an incredible experience with
Veronique Sanders Van Beek, the director there. But
what she showed us, and this
goes back to your storytelling, we went into their. Their new winery and

(51:35):
it's phenomenally thought through. And so if I'm. If I'm
a visitor and I see this and I'm explained why this
was designed the way it was designed, I'll never forget
that. Right. I'll never forget that experience. And wine has always been
that. Always. It's not an experience to say, I've got this
for five bucks on the Internet. That's not an experience. And I don't.

(51:57):
That's the part about the history of wine that
I don't think it can be shaken or needs to be diverted or changed.
It'll always be the bedrock of the proper glass
of wine that somebody comes to and says, wow, this is something
special. Tell us. Yeah, bristle. When you say the word proper,

(52:18):
what do you mean? What? Bristle. It's.
It's. I Think it's subjective. I think a lot of people that love
wine and wine people, you know, we did research on this,
almost all of us, because I'm one of them, have, have had
their aha moment. Their moment that they can remember that they first
got it about wine there. It picked me and I could tell you

(52:40):
mine. I bet you could tell me yours. I mean there's. I'm sure there's not
many, but like your first one that
sparked your love. Not everybody's like that.
Not everybody is like us and is going to be a wine geek and
wants to go to the chate. And I think the wine
drinking potential population and casual wine drinking population

(53:01):
may be fine with a $5 glass on the Internet
because I don't feel equally. Go ahead. I'm not trying to
cast that wide net in that regard because I think anybody that
drinks a really good glass of wine at least will acknowledge is really good.
And I'll give you an example. When I was with some friends in Napa for
the first time. Now these people, like, they criticize everything I do now,

(53:22):
but up and. Well, before, when I had gone to Napa, this is about five
or seven years ago, we were sitting at Clopagas, you
know, one of the old vintage wine estates properties. And we have two
2014 cabernets. Two different vineyards actually. One was probably the blend and
one was probably vineyard specific. And my friend said, right
in my face. My 50 or my friend of 50 years said, I think this

(53:44):
is. You're full of. I go, what do you mean? He goes, you're full of.
The way you guys use those expressions. And he's talking about this, talk about that.
It doesn't mean anything. I said, okay, let me ask you this question. You've got
two Cabernets here. They're both the same grape, same winemaker, two different
reasons there in the bottle. Do they taste different to you? He said,
yeah. I said, you're on your way. You just started.

(54:04):
Yeah. They explain it, but you notice the difference. Yeah. I'm not
saying that everybody feels that way. So that. And that kind of circled all the
way back360 to the conversation about your Italian family sitting with
a glass of wine on the table every night. It wasn't about
swirling and sniffing and trying to dissect it. Right. It was no care of ever
going to a chateau. They didn't. They've never even traveled, Never done that. Right,

(54:26):
Right. And there's, there's. If you want to sell volume again, it goes back
to what your goal is you can be as artistic as you want
if you. You just need to know what you want to achieve, how
much you're going to spend on getting there and how fast you want to get
there. I can't wait to hear in a few months. The
sort of. The percentage of people have come to you with their different problem, the

(54:48):
types of problems. Eventually you're gonna. It's so fun. A bucket of
one kind of problem, a bucket with other kind of problems. Yeah. A different type
of client. And it'll change, I think. I think every six months it's going to
be changing. There is no shortage of problems in the world. There might
be, you know, layoffs and tariffs and. But there's
no shortage problems. Such a pleasure to have on the show, and I hope

(55:10):
we can see each other soon. You're. You're in Washington? No,
I'm in California. Oh, San Francisco area. Yep. And how
often do you get over to the Valley? Napa Valley. I was just there for
the last three days. I just got back. You know, we're up all the time.
I'm going to give you some notice. If we happen to be able to grab
a glass or a lunch or something, we'd love to do it. Yeah, absolutely.

(55:32):
Thanks again. Thanks, Paul. Cheers.