Phil Long Learned It The Hard Way. Without The Headwinds Of Racism.

We I frist met Phil Long, I was tasting at the African American Association of Vintners and we just happen to stumble across the fact that we literally grew up around the corner from each other in Inglewood, California. Granted that was many years ago, and much has changed in society since those days, but we both ended up in the wine trade and found a mutual connection on both levels.

Phil Long might be the only winemaker who can turn a tale about drafting homework into a master class on the thousand steps of wine. Pour a glass and get ready to uncover much more than the typical vineyard origin story—this episode offers a rare glimpse into the making of a modern winemaker. Listeners will discover how Phil’s Southern California roots, his early career as a creative architect, and a fateful bottle of Boone’s Farm all wove together into a relentless curiosity for wine that ultimately led him, step by step, into the heart of an industry both old and new. You’ll learn what truly defines a winemaker—not the first three steps of fermentation, nor even the next 100, but the thousand intricate choices, failures, and stubborn bits of creativity that make a bottle personal. Phil peels back the mystique of wine, sharing both the obstacles and quirks—from launching Longevity Wines out of a garage to landing a partnership with the Franzia family and navigating the complicated terrain of distribution and branding. For those curious about the intersection of culture and wine, Phil opens up about building community as president of the Association of African American Vintners, showing that passion, persistence, and collaboration are the real keys to progress. You’ll also come away with an insider’s perspective on innovation and authenticity in a business shaped by shifting trends and timeless tradition—why a wine experience is more than a beverage, and how the memories, people, and places around the glass matter as much as what’s in it. Whether you’re wondering about non-alcoholic wine, the realities of vineyard margins, or simply want to know how someone goes from drafting tables to barrels, this conversation will change how you see every sip.

✅ Ever wondered how a winemaker turns a three-step garage project into an award-winning, internationally recognized label?
✅ Phil Long of Longevity Wines reveals the thousands of steps (and secrets) that define a true winemaker.
✅ Host Paul K sits down with Phil to talk about everything from humble beginnings in Inglewood, breaking barriers in the wine industry, and building a brand that’s grounded in authenticity and family.
✅ If you think wine is just a drink, get ready to discover why it’s truly an experience—and how perseverance and passion can shape an entire legacy.

🎧 Dive into this episode of Wine Talks with Paul K and guest Phil Long now—the story behind the bottle might just inspire your next move! #WineTalks #Podcast #PhilLong #WineIndustry

 

#WineIndustry
#DiversityInWine
#Winemaking
#Entrepreneurship
#WineCulture
#InnovationInWine
#AfricanAmericanWinemakers
#WineExperience

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Once you start really diving into the process of making wine, it's
not a difficult process to make. You can
make wine in about three steps. It's crap, but you can make it in
about three steps. You learn the next hundred steps
and it's a drinkable wine, but it's the thousand steps you
learn. They really define you as a winemaker. Sit back

(00:22):
and grab a glass. It's Wine Talks with
Paul King. Hey, welcome to Wine
Talks with Paul Key. And we are in studio today in beautiful Southern California. Actually
a little blustery here in Monroe. About to have a conversation with Phil Long
of Longevity Wines way out in Maryland today. Hey,
have a listen to a show that I just came out with a guy named

(00:43):
Zach Armand, young man who's decided he's going to take on wholesale
wine from an area of the world that nobody knows about called Armenia
and grapes that no one knows about, called Areni. It's a fascinating story about
here, how he got involved with this crazy industry. And
give us a review and subscribe. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't
do it. There's something good to say, go ahead and do it. That's how we

(01:05):
keep our egos in check here in the podcasting world, but not why we're here.
Here to have a conversation with Mr. Phil Long of Longevity Wines.
Welcome to the show, Phil. Thank you, Paul. Great, great being here.
I appreciate you having me. Well, fascinating story. And we
met up in the aaav, the association of African
American Ve association tasting and had a

(01:28):
fabulous time there. But. But we stumbled across
the only time in my life in career where I ran into somebody who
grew up in Inglewood near me
as I stayed there till I was about 7 and we were
neighbors there at 80, I was at 84th street and you were
at 82nd, and you went to

(01:50):
Daniel Freeman Elementary. And until. Until
I didn't. Right. Kindergarten
through fifth grade. And they decided that's when segregation
and busing was going to happen. So I was bused for the sixth
grade to Lati Hera. Really? Yeah. Oh, wow. We
didn't talk about that. So my father had a

(02:12):
pharmacy on Van Ness, right near
Manchester. And then he would take me to school. I mean, take me
to work. I'd stamp brochures or something. And then the driver would
drive me to Daniel Freeman, which I don't remember being that far from
there. No, Daniel Freeman was probably
three blocks from. So it's really close. So

(02:34):
it's really close. In fact, when I was old enough to Start walking
to school. I remember my mom standing out on the
sidewalk watching me until I got to the school block. Oh, wow.
So that was that close? Yes, it was that close
because my parents house was right across the street from the
pharmacy with a little Spanish style

(02:56):
home. My mom raised us
there. And then we moved to 84th Street, I think when
I was probably three or something. And in my first
lemonade stand was right there on Manchester, near Prairie, you know, before the
Forum. Before the Forum, right. Yeah. I
watched. There were occasions when I got to high school.

(03:18):
I remember walking. I don't remember why, but I remember walking
and watching the form being built. Yeah, Isn't that crazy? Yeah,
it is crazy. I learned how to ride a bike at Hollywood park parking
lot and you know, we went to Huck Finn Day and fish in the.
The lake in there, whatever. I don't know. Darby
Park. Darby Park. You know, I ended up.

(03:40):
We end up at the beach Cities and I ran cross country in high school
and I won one race during that, my freshman year
anyway, and it was at Darby park when we raced against Inglewood High.
Really? Yeah. And I. Maybe it was this nostalgic thing for
me, but, you know, it was like we used to have Cub Scouts there and
my brother was. My dad was Scout master of the Englewood Cub

(04:02):
Scouts. And they had their Pinewood Derby at Darby park and.
Wow. Yeah. You know, I haven't spent a lot of time in
Inglewood lately, but I. I hear has
changed enormously. Oh, man, you can imagine with Sofi
Stadium and. Right. All that. My grandparents are
there at the cemetery at the Corner Prairie in Manchester as well. Oh, really?

(04:24):
Yeah. And my dad was chief of staff at Daniel Freeman
Hospital. Oh, wow. Really?
Yes, I believe that's where I was born. Oh,
really? Really? Wow.
Actually, I was born. I was born here in dc, Believe it or not.
Oh, wow. Yeah. And then you moved from D.C. to

(04:47):
Englewood. Born here. Went
to nursery school in Oakland,
California and went from
kindergarten all the way through, you
know, until I tell. Until we moved up to northern California in
2002. So I pretty much spent my entire life in. In Southern

(05:07):
California. Wow. How is it then that two guys
living two blocks apart of the same generation
both got into the wine trade? Yeah, I've. This was
not my journey. I. I didn't actually know
wine was made in this country when I was in college. Wow.
Wow. Yeah. That was a late bloomer

(05:29):
there. Pretty much. Yeah. I thought it was France or somewhere
in Europe. Wine just wasn't really a part of My upbringing, so I
didn't have much, much exposure to it. Well, what's
interesting for me, my dad was standing at the counter at the
pharmacy on Van Ness and Queen Elizabeth was coming
to town to meet President Eisenhower. And he. And he

(05:51):
poured. He was the first president to pour an American wine at the White House.
Wasn't for a state dinner, it was for a lunch. And he poured him. Poured
her Charles Krug special select Cabernet. And my
dad reading the news LA Times sitting at the counter
on Van Ness thought this was pretty interesting. And I guess one of his Lions
Club buddies had a liquor store down the road and ordered

(06:13):
a case and that started this journey. But you, you
didn't, like you said you didn't know wine in college, but. And
you studied architecture
when. What was that plan? What was the plan for the architecture?
You know, it really wasn't a plan. It was a default actually.
Ever since the seventh grade at, at Crozier Junior

(06:36):
High. I took one of the
courses was drafting, right. And I don't know, for
some reason it. It just clicked. I ended up doing everybody
else's homework because nobody else could get it. Like this whole isometric
perspective. What does this mean? What. It just clicked. So from that point
on, drafting and being a creative

(06:58):
has been my life. When I got to Englewood High, I
immediately signed up for architectural drafting.
Turns out I knew more than the teacher did,
so he would all the students to come to me.
So when it was time to go to college, it was really boiled down to
what two Cal State schools offered architecture as a major,

(07:21):
and it was Pomona and San Luis Obispo. San Luis
Obispo is more of a engineering oriented school
and Pomona is more of a design oriented school. So that's where I went.
And so while you're there, you continue this love
of, of the idea because it's really engineering at this point, right? It's
not really. No, it's really design. It's. It's really

(07:43):
designing buildings, homes, you know,
styles going back through all of the different
ages of architecture and
design. And it was really fascinating. I mean, I still carry that
with me today. It's kind of cool. Well, you would think too, in the
wine trade that is a really interesting part of the business, which is

(08:05):
design of wineries, not only for
architectural history, but the functionality of
that is very important as well. In fact, your design of your winery is really
fun. Having seen it online, had not a chance to go there,
but I'm sure that you had a lot to do with how that was going
to function. You know, I, I, I give, I give Deborah the

(08:27):
credit, but it was, you know, it was a collaborative thing. I think our goal
was with the winery, not to, we just wanted to create an
environment that we weren't pretending to be something we're not.
We just, we just wanted to do us right.
So a lot of the furnishings in the winery, a lot of the
things are there. I actually built. There are things in

(08:48):
there from my family, actually. In the main
barrel room, underneath the main long table,
there's a huge Karestan carpet that was in my
house. Wow. On 82nd place. Really? Wow.
Cool. Very cool. So we just use things that really
said who we were and, and it just seems to work. It's just like

(09:11):
home. And that's what we wanted. Probably got a lot of. You probably got a
lot of comments on that. Just the wine world
in Livermore Valley. But here's this giant carousel.
Carbon. Yeah. People look at it and they can't believe how
old. I can't believe how old it is, how much it's held up. But
yes, there's a symbol. I mean, there's, there's a, there's a couple paintings from

(09:32):
my grandparents when I, when I was in Oakland going to nursery
school. So there's just a lot of history
and again, just who we were. We weren't, we weren't trying to be
a Tuscan villa wannabe. We just want to do us.
And it seemed to work. Let's talk, we're going to talk about that a
little bit about this lifestyle of wine and, you know, how people try to

(09:54):
get into it. And they, they do exactly what you're saying. They build these
elaborate, sometimes gaudy places to represent
who they are, but that's not really who they are. They're just trying to flaunt
something. But so, so how did you migrate from architecture
to, to wine? And your career is amazing. We're going to talk a lot
about those things. But was it because we're in college now? When

(10:16):
I was at college, you know, we were drinking the cheap bourbon. We
didn't, you know, we didn't. My dad had a liquor store, so, you know, that
was easily accessible. But when was it
that you had. You got this bug? Because this is tall
order. Well, it certainly wasn't during college. College.
I remember my first ever taste of wine

(10:37):
was at a, a high school
camping trip. I'm like, what?
And the actual teacher. No names. The actual
teacher brought a bottle of Boone's Farm
apple something. And we were all
able to partake in this little. This bottle of Boone's Farm.

(10:59):
That was my very, very first taste of wine. But college was
more. It was Schlitz malt liquor and tanker and
tonic. It. It just wasn't a wine time. No. I mean,
yes. Well, when you get out of, you know, you get out of college and
you start, you know, getting into the world, if you're going to
date and you're going to go have dinner, you. You better know a little

(11:20):
something. So I kind of developed some favorites. I, I
remember Concrete Cab from Napa was a
favorite at one point. And then I had a
friend who, who collected wine, and
he brought us over one
night and he introduced

(11:42):
us to silver oak by serving a flight of
multiple vintages of silver oak. Wow. Vertical.
I'm like, wow, this is good. How much does it cost? Oh, no
wonder. Yeah. When was, how long ago was that? That
was probably in the
mid-90s. Mid to late 90s.

(12:04):
Yeah. Back when Silver oak was Silver oak.
Yeah. No offense to silver. No. They're
still selling thousands of cases. Yeah. Oh, sure.
But. So we started getting out, exploring and
understanding why. But then we migrated to Northern
California for actually a corporate job. I was

(12:25):
creative director for a large design firm here in.
Or not here, but in Northern California. And when we got
to Northern California, it's such a difference than
Southern California. It's. You're in the middle of wine country,
usa, period. You know, if California were a
country, we'd be like the fourth or fifth largest wine producing country

(12:47):
in the world. And most of it's in Northern California. So you can't
drive in any direction without ending up in one country. So every
weekend we tried to get out and explore because I never lived anywhere else but
Southern California, inevitably we'd end up at a winery
because you can't go in any direction. You can't really do it. Yeah,
no. So the, the process to

(13:09):
me sort of grew on me. It was fascinating. So
Deborah and I just decided, let's, let's try to make a little wine in the
garage. You know, that's that. But that's not, you know, that
curiosity is, I think, you know, it's not, it's
not popular, necessary, but
it does require that curiosity to peel this

(13:31):
industry back. And I was reflecting on something you said. There was
this. It's a very cerebral subject, if you want it to be.
And you, you pursued it that way. There was a TV show, there was
a French movie that I was watching on the plane not too long ago. And
it was, you know, the, the gentleman said, wine is the
intellectual part of a meal. And that stuck with

(13:51):
me because it is part. It is that part of the meal where you think
and you wonder and you, you. This is what you're doing when you're tasting silver
oak. And you. We're. We're fortunate enough to have a flight of, you
know, a vertical flight of silver oak to, to stimulate your
curiosity. Right. But then today, I.
Mike, my saying is that wine's not a beverage, it's an experience.

(14:13):
Yes, and that's. Right. That's a really good point.
We'll talk about that, too. But that's. There's a big
chasm and leap between. This is an interesting subject, and
I can't tell you how many meals I've had with people that just, you know,
the, the wine geek who goes on and on and on and on about it,
but, you know, would never step into trying to make

(14:34):
it. I, you know, I've been around all my life. I would. I
deliberately stayed away from trying to make it. What. Why was that so
interesting for your wife, too? You know,
once you start really diving into the process of making
wine, it's. It's not a difficult
process to make one. You can make wine in about three steps.

(14:57):
It's crap, but you can make it about three steps. You,
you learn the next hundred steps, and it's a
drinkable wine. But it's the thousand steps you learn, they really
define you as a winemaker. So it's the
complication of it and the under. Well, what does that step? What. What do those
steps mean? Is that experience, study,

(15:19):
academic reading because, you know, you taught.
You think about it. There's. That, there's one process where you go to
enology school, you go to UC Davis, you go to Cornell, you go to Ever,
you learn enology and you learn the bacteria. And then the other ones you're a
seller at. And you, You're. You work your way up in the cellar.
Both of those end up with, you know, rather dramatic

(15:41):
experience to get to a product you can drink and sell.
You just decided to do it by the seat of your pants. Is that what
you did? Well, my seller was, you know, my seller experience was the
garage. Yes. You know, we made in the G White, made wine in
the garage from 2003 to 2008 and
decided to. To jump in and see if we could.

(16:03):
See if we could sell what we make. So. So you
had enough. You felt like you could go. Like so
many of the stories, particularly the early nap eventers, you know, I put the stuff
in the back of this car and I drove to LA and I, you know,
I hope the car was empty when I got back home. Is that
the kind of thing you did? Something like that.

(16:25):
You know, we really wanted to be able to produce wine commercially and to do
that you have to have a bonded facility, which I mean a little
side step to the story. We got our wholesale distributor's
license back in 2000, I don't know,
four or something, which allowed us to. So we started
an online based wine club. It's kind of like

(16:47):
California Wine Club. We visit a different Appalachian each month
and feature wines. But that also gave us the ability to start
producing wine under our label in other
bonded facilities. So we started integrating
longevity into the monthly wine
pack. So it really gave us a little bit of a kickstart.

(17:08):
So when we opened and we started what is still
today, you know, longevity Wine Club, I think we lost one
customer because he really just enjoyed the variety. And now
that he was going to be eating all longevity, he thought yeah, I want, I'd
really like the variety. But only one customer left us and that was a great,
great kickstart. Man, I wish I had a success when, you know,

(17:29):
well, one of the month club was, you know, like it was the first club
in America that was successful. We, but we peaked around
2000. I don't know, I guess it was around
2013, maybe 12 or something. The long
career of this 35 year club that we had. But man, it changed a
lot in the last couple of years to the point where we sold

(17:51):
it. But you mentioned California Wine Club,
Bruce Boring or Jerry Becker and. Nope, just I admired
them from afar. Yeah, they're great. I got
off camera, I'll tell you some great stories
but, but then again, okay, so now you've, you've made this leap, which is a
huge leap and you obviously have the bug now and you want to do this

(18:14):
and then you. One of the issues today, right now with
the whole wine trade is the consolidation of, of
wholesalers. A lot of small brands are getting lost in the big
books. You know, if you go with Southern or R D C or something, you're
just going to get, you know, squished and you, you landed
with a really large distributor and a family run organization called

(18:35):
the Franzio Frangio Group, Bronco being their
distribution arm. That's a, that's an accolade in
itself to be able to, to land in that book.
You know, you start a business hoping at Someday in
whatever medium that is going to pay off for you. Right? That's, that's
what you're, you're hoping for, but you never know what that

(18:57):
is. And the, the story is back in
2017, a friend of mine came over to the, to the winery
and he said, we're just sitting around just having a glass of wine. And he
looked at the label. He says, I don't know why I didn't think of this
before. I think, I think Fred would really be interested in partnering
with you and helping you expand. And I honestly, my, and I

(19:19):
quote, I said, fred who? And
he said, he said, fred Franzia. And I said, I just laughed.
I said, yeah, sure. Right, dude? Yeah. He said, can I take some bottles to
him? I said, you take him anything you want. So he was
my friend. Steve was the cork salesman for
Bronco or one of the cork vendors for Bronco. And I also bought my course,

(19:41):
but we had been friends for years. So he took Fred some bottles
and I'm not kidding, two weeks later, I'm sitting
across the table from Fred. That's phenomenal. Yeah,
that, that's scary. Well, he's like, he was, he was the king,
you know, at that point. Right. I mean, I think what the, the
cool little story, the indication of where I was.

(20:04):
I'm sitting in the lobby of Fred's trailer. Believe it or
not. I'm sitting in the lobby and there's this
framed picture on the wall. Kind of faded
color, you know, 60sish, kind of, you can tell. But there
was a plaque with all the names of the people. And there are probably
50, 60 people in this, in this plaque. And you read the

(20:26):
names. Every single
Italian family name in the wine business you can think
of is in this one picture. Wow. The Martinis,
the Rossis, the Gallows, the Mandavis, the Sagacios,
the Fran. Everyone you can name is in this one picture. And I just
thought, I, I, I, I, I, I shouldn't be

(20:47):
here.
Can I sneak out at this point? That's
amazing. There's just an indication of where I
was in that moment. That's a
crazy good story. He's such a, he was such a powerful man
and, but a fair guy for the

(21:10):
listeners. You know, the Franzia family is hugely responsible for the wine industry
in California and, but also responsible for some
pretty shady stuff. And I, I had to remind, you know,
Classic Wines is their other distribution arm. And I did a lot of
business with, with them and spoke with Fred many times
on deals. They, they were one of the great things about Fred was he was

(21:32):
willing to make a deal. Right. And, you know, and he was a shrewd negotiator.
But, you know, we. We did. I had a lot of wine with them, and.
And he just wanted to make deals. He wanted to make it work, you know.
Right. It may cost a little money on the back end, but he knew I'd
come back for more in the future, so it was great. But, you know, responsible
also for trying to fool the

(21:53):
feds into thinking he was making white zinfandel out of Grenache.
Well, I. I didn't have any personal association with those
experiences. You know, Fred was a.
Definitely an interesting human being. He didn't have much of a filter, and
he definitely told you what he thought, when he thought it.

(22:14):
But I. I love the guy. You know, he. He saw something in me,
and I met him in 17, and we formed a
partnership in 2019. Oh, it was rather. It's rather
young, really, when it comes to the world of wine. But. But you said something
really interesting, and I want to peel it back a little bit. There's. The wine
industry is being. Not gonna say bashed, but

(22:36):
it's. It's. There's this
issue with racism, there's an issue with women
in wine, and that there's only, you know, 25% of the winemakers are women, and
there's only 5% are executives. And. And you think about
these immigration families, all these Italians. Now, maybe there was a. There
was a. Maybe there was a propensity for Italians to

(22:58):
stay together. But, you know, the industry really was founded by immigration,
immigrants, and it was coming to this country.
Yeah. We all need to remember, you know, during those
times when the Italians were migrating to
California, they came with grapevines in their pocket. That's what their families did.
That's what they're, you know, ones before them. And for them, they. They

(23:20):
just all had their own wine in their own house. Every. Every household
would produce their own, however small a batch. That was the
house's wine. House wine. It was that house's wine. So when they
migrated, they came here with grapevines in their pocket.
When you look at African Americans in the wine industry, you got to think
back. That's not how we got here. So we

(23:42):
started way, way, way, way, way back
behind them. And, you know, you mentioned
5% or executive, 25% are women,
1% or African American. And you. Because
that's what it sound like. You're saying that's. Because that wasn't part
of the culture when you came here. There's, of course, a lot of reasons why

(24:03):
you came here, and one of a bad mark on the history of the country.
But. But generally it wasn't part of the lifestyle,
because I checked in with the. I checked in for the listeners, the
AAAV, which is the association of African American Vendors
in 2004 or so. And I can't remember what the
social issues were at the time, but I wanted to feature

(24:25):
a wine from your group in the club. And
so at that time, we were probably buying a thousand
cases of red a month and 8, 900 cases of white, something like
that. And if I remember, there were like
five members of the association at that point. Now, had you founded
it at that point or how. So the association

(24:48):
was founded by Mac McDonald.
Mac McDonald was recognized as this
phenomenal black winemaker, not because he was a black wine
maker, he was making 90 point pinos from Sonoma.
And it's like he was just making gray wine.
But as he says, I used to go to events and people didn't look like

(25:10):
me. So when he did find someone that looked like
him, they started to band together and share
resources, you know, combine purchases to
help each other out. And that's how AAAV was born. I
met Mac probably around
2010, 2011, at a black History Month event

(25:31):
in San Francisco. And we just. We just stayed in
touch and became friends. I had no idea I was being groomed as his
replacement, but that's sort of the
evolution. I. Deborah and I joined AAAAV in
2016. He invited us
to pour at the symposium you went to this year. That.

(25:53):
That particular year was in some Sonoma. So Deborah
and I went up and we poured and we chatted, and he called me the
next week. He said, look, man, we need you. So. So we
joined. And then in
2018, I became vice president. And then in
2020, Max stepped down and I took over the reins.

(26:15):
And. And that's where you land today is. That'S where I
live. Correct. But I. But the thing that was inspiring about the show,
and I had promised Andre I would come,
and for a lot of reasons, one is I'll taste anything I can
get my hands on. And that's. That's why we. That's how we get better at
what we do and how we learn. But I

(26:37):
thought it was fascinating and I knew a little about your history. I thought, I'm
going to come up and just see and wines are
great. I expected no less than that and some really
interesting stuff. But what I Found really interesting. When I was done, I was telling
my wife, I said, you know, the concerns of
almost everybody there weren't the race, the fact that

(26:58):
we had to or make an organization called the association of African American Vendors. They
were facing the same headwinds, the same troubles, the same
marketing issues, the same social networking issues, the same manufacturing issues, the
same distribution issues that just about any other winery has to go
through. Yeah, and that's so true. I get asked all the time,
well, you know, what were your challenges as a

(27:20):
black winemaker? And then. That's exactly right. The same
challenges of everybody else making wine. You better make good
wine. You, you know, you better get it marketed well, you better get
it placed well. Because, you know, look, when you're on the
shelf, unless, you know, you don't know. So that's
right. It better. I mean, that's where we're at a point now where

(27:44):
all of our longevity portfolio that's now internationally
distributed, the entire portfolio of longevity
is, is 91 or more. So we're in a really
good place with our portfolio. I'm really happy about that.
But yeah, we got to make wine. Just as you can't rely on,

(28:04):
you know, a niche and be successful in this
business. Well, that's interesting point though. So the,
the niche is that we're African American winemakers, which is
really cool. And you know, I think my point earlier
about the Italians was, I don't know where,
I'm not going to call it segregation, but sort of the, the African

(28:26):
American community outside looking into the wine industry, wondering, you know, what this is all
about, was part of, you know, the Italians,
let's face it, the Italians kind of when they get involved with an industry
to get to kind of take over. Right. So, but I mean, that
wasn't deliberate, obviously, but it is an intimidating subject
for everybody. And then for a community of

(28:49):
minority like the African Americans to say, you know, I think we want to do
this and you make great strides. I mean, I understand there's like two or three
hundred members now in the, in the group truth. There's the, there's around
300 members of which in this country there's about a
hundred either black owned wineries or black
winemakers, our black wine brands in the, in the country

(29:10):
today, which, you know, at 100 out of 10,000 will do the
math. Right? Yeah. Right. It's very small, so, yeah, very
small amount. But in the end, we got to make good wine
just like everybody else has to make good wine. Yeah, you can't, you're right. You
can't rely on that. No, you cannot. I mean, it's hard
enough. There's a lot of really, really good wine out there that doesn't get any

(29:31):
traction ever. No matter what, no matter who made it. Right, right. Correct.
It's a tough industry. Especially.
So that landing with the Franzi is, you know, I
wanna, it was a great story that you just told about, you know,
sitting with them and seeing these people on the, in the picture and, and realizing,
you know, where you're at. I mean, that's kind of what's happening, right? Like, wow,

(29:53):
how did I get here? That's, that was exactly it. And be. And be
successful. And so when you mentioned worldwide, what's. Is that change?
Is that new that you've gone international? We've been
shipping to Japan, I think, for a couple
years. We've been shipping to the United Kingdom for a couple years.
I, I would like to. International markets are really

(30:16):
fickle market, so I mean, I'd like to do more,
but it's, it's, it's definitely an interesting market to deal
with. So we're gonna, we're keep picking at it and see if we
can do more. But, you know, we're really relying upon our
partnership with, you know, Bronco and RNDC here

(30:36):
to really fulfill the goals we're trying to reach. You know, it's interesting
because usually, at least in today's world, if I wanted to set out and make
wine, actually, I do have a license to. I have an O2, actually. Okay,
well, but there you go.
I have a fruit press around here somewhere.
But, you know, typically, even with

(30:59):
pedigree kids that are up in Napa, who, you know, went to Napa
High School, you know, they, they're not going to get a free hall pass
to get into a book. They, they have to go earn that stripe, which is
typically getting, let's say 100 placements on their own. They take their wine to
drive it around. They, they put it in a restaurant, they put it in a
store, and then they go to a wholesaler and say, Look, I've got 100 places.

(31:20):
Because most wholesalers aren't going to build your brand
right. You get to build the brand right. And then they'll take it over once,
once you have enough traction that they feel that they can make some money. And
even today I, I find that distributors, I mean, they're, look, they're,
they're great, but they're pretty much right paper. That's, that's kind
of the, the Goal to build a brand, you've got to be out there in

(31:41):
the market. You've got to be out there in the field. You know, thank goodness
I get to work with some really great people at Bronco that are. That are
in the field pushing the brand and, you know, pulling things like, you know,
next week's wine, dinner together or market visits. There's just a
whole itinerary for me when I get there. So I've got a lot of help,
which is great, but, you know, but I got to. I got to

(32:03):
be there to really make the next
level of difference. They're doing a great job, but, you know, my hit rate if
I walk in the door is 100%, so. But there's only one
of me. Well, that's a, That's a really, really good
point. And I've done a lot of these dinners over the years,
and the, the number one thing, whether it was

(32:25):
Gwanak or the Langtree family or whoever it was that was
coming down to do a tasting with me or dinner
is like, let's sell some wine. Right? Like, I love doing this. And, I
mean, you have to feel like a little bit of a celebrity, right? When you
walk into a room like that and everybody's hanging on every word you said and
they showed up and paid money to hear you speak and, and, and eat

(32:45):
and have a meal with you, it's. It is
a little surreal, a little different from what I. You know, I didn't
expect that to be part of the gig, but,
yeah, it's a. It's a little bit like that. I mean, I'm. I'm
getting to know some great people, you know, members of the aaav. Dwayne
Wade's a member. John Legend's a member. Yeah, so it's

(33:08):
a. It's an interesting world, but you're right. It's about moving cases. We just did
a. Just a small wine dinner at a country club in,
In Florida. I think There were about 18 tickets that were
bought, but we sold 20 cases.
Wow, that's pretty. I know, right? So
normally it's the other way around, but, yeah,

(33:31):
being there, it makes all the difference in the world. What
were some of the headwinds that you didn't expect
when you started this? Like, you did it as a hobby? You.
I don't like, did you expect the margins to be as difficult as they
are, or did you. Were there headwinds that you. That you

(33:51):
encountered that you thought were racially motivated? I mean, was
there something that just said, wow, I Didn't expect this, but let's go at
it. So when we opened in Livermore, they're really.
I didn't face any really real
racial barriers. Now I didn't. Now, I'm not saying others
don't, but personally, I didn't. I think,

(34:13):
going back to our previous conversation, it's the same as everybody
else. I think for me, you know, jumping into
wine at 40 something, as far as, you know, producing
wine for others, there's
so much you don't know. Yeah. You know, I didn't go. I don't have a
degree in analogy. You know, I never went for viticulture

(34:36):
and analogy, which my son is actually doing now. So I
had to learn everything in the school of hard knocks, having
mentors making mistakes. And I remember
saying to myself one time, I just want to learn how to make wine
so I don't have to know how to fix stuff. I just know how to
make it so I don't have to fix. Yeah.

(34:58):
So that's a noble pursuit. That is a great
pursuit. So, yeah, there's always obstacles in
the way. I mean, even today, there's obstacles, as you well know, with the,
you know, the whole N A or non
A movement that's happening, the restructuring
of and moving of all the distributors.

(35:21):
You know, every. Everybody's going through sort of a re something,
which I'm just hoping that it settles down so we can,
you know, get to work. Well, I think you are
on that path. And I get this question all the time as well,
you know, as a DTC consultant, because we've
done it all here. We've. We've seen it all. We've. I sent. My

(35:44):
last full year in business, I sent 33 million emails out.
You know, we were all about those kinds of things. And I think what
you're doing in the. In your Livermore facility, that and
these dinners is really what used to happen with this badge here. This is
Les Ami Devan. It was my dad's badge when he had a. A chapter in
1975. Wow. And. And people would come together.

(36:06):
Mandavi would show up and taste with them. They'd have these dinners that
women were dressed up. You know, they went. In my case, we lived in the
beach area, so they go to Marine Land at their banquet room.
And the experiential side of wine is
the slow grind. Wine's a slow business. I mean, it's once a year.
Right. You only get one chance a year to do it. One shot. The marketing

(36:28):
of. It's pretty much the same. And I think that is pulling back
because the barrage of messaging on the social side of things
and. And the generational gap between wine
buyers and, you know, what's on the marketplace is. Has
to find its bottom, and then it'll rebuild through
things. Like what you're doing with the experience of wine

(36:50):
becomes the. The experience of wine rather than the
package or a can or a Tetra pack or whatever silly things
are going on out there. Well, you're constantly trying to hone in
on that target, but the target keeps. Moving,
and that's because it moves. The. The marketing of wine can move so fast.
Like, let's just take non Elk for a second. I had the pleasure

(37:13):
of. And when cans first came out, I had the
experience to taste a wine that was bottled from the same vineyard. The same
manufacturing one went in the can, and some of it went into a bottle. I
got to taste those side by side, and they were different wines,
you know, dramatically different, but they were different. And I also had the chance recently
to taste the same vineyard designated Pinot

(37:34):
Noir. Non alk version of it and the alk version of
it. I mean, a huge difference. I mean, they don't. I mean.
Right. And I don't. I have this romantic thing
like, why would you drink a non Al wine
when they're. They're just not any good? There's. They're not pleasant.
Right. It's not. Going to the Florida Country Club and having a glass

(37:56):
of wine, you know, with Phil Long at a dinner, you. You can't do it.
It doesn't. It doesn't work that way. And I've not tasted
very many NA wines, but the movement itself
is huge. There's. There's mocktail bars opening all over
the place. Like, really? I've never seen one. Yeah, we've got. There's
at least two new ones here in D.C. that just serve mocktails.

(38:20):
You know, I don't. Maybe I'm old.
We're both in that same boat, man. So, again, the
target keeps moving. Do you. Is it a fad? Is it a trend?
Is it a. The direction? Who knows? Like I said, the target doesn't
stay in one place. Well, I kind of feel like it's
like the Boone's Farm, you know, it's gonna come and go. The

(38:42):
Matuse. Well, Lancers is still around, I think, but
all those various blips in.
In the wine trade, that spike in valley, and you know, that they just
come from seasonal things and not seasonal being along.
Potentially a long thing. Because the non Al people are pushing it hard and that's
fine. And I, we went to the fancy food show in Vegas a couple years

(39:04):
ago, and the main push for beverage at that
show, particular show, was non al distilled spirits and
non alcohol. But again. And I had
this conversation yesterday with a woman
who's. Who's taken the Bible and all the references
to wine and has crafted a message about wine

(39:25):
and the human soul and Christianity and the
Bible. And I've always tried to define why wine
has such a connection to the human soul. It's
almost indescribable. I've never had a winemaker explain exactly why he
thinks the grape is this conduit
that is like no other beverage. White Claw is

(39:47):
not going to do it for you in that regard. Right. So
wine has a unique place. I think it does. And it kind of goes back
to it defining, you know, when I said experience. Well, what.
What does that mean? Well, it means it's not just about the
beverage and the nuances and the
palate and the sense. It's not. It's about

(40:10):
where you were. It's about who you're with. It's about the
time you had it. It's about that memory of the
experience. It's not just the wine. The wines
helping really create an experience that you
take with you where you're right, you're not going to get that from a can
of butt. It's just, no, it's not gonna happen. Or Schliss, for that matter.

(40:32):
Exactly. So I, you know, that's how I
define it. It's probably pretty poor, the defense definition, but
it really is about the experience. Well, let's just
take. You're talking about Dwayne Wade and John Legend
have their. Have. Have their
participation in the industry and their propensity towards wine. And I've. I've had

(40:53):
both. I think they're great. I sold a lot of John Legend wines here. Love
when we were. When I was selling under the Boise group.
Has that had an effect on the popularity of wine in the African
American community and engaged more discussion,
more curiosity? Oh, for sure. Any, you know,

(41:14):
any engagement from the culture.
The more, the more representation we
have, you know, the better it's going to be.
The problem is there's just not that much of it, so to
speak. So. So that's, you know, one of the reasons we struggle. But yeah, I
mean, I. John and I are good friends. I had his

(41:37):
wine great. I'm great friends with Jean Charles. They're
all, you know, big supporters of Aaaav. So,
no, I think it's a positive for, you know, there's the people that have
the money that can do it that way, and there's the people like me who.
Who didn't and did it that way. So it doesn't really matter in the
end, you know, we're stronger together than we are apart.

(41:59):
That's a good point. This.
The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Right. I have to
say, whenever we. We're in Napa quite frequently, and we hang in Yonville
typically, and if I have friends
that come or visit us, I have to take them to
Boisse's atelier there because it's just such

(42:21):
a departure from what people think the wine industry is about.
Yeah, it's a little. It's a little different. And
this is the came down version. I. I hear the version he wanted to open
was a little too risque, and he had to tone it down a bit.
Yeah, I had this behind me, behind the wall. You see there. There's

(42:41):
a. There was. My wine shop was there, and. And. And I
actually went with this sort of graffiti, you know, grunge look. It's
really cool, actually. I had a graffiti artist come in and do it. But when
you walked into the building, I was trying to copy the Raymond
Red room that John Charles created. And my wife's
like. And there's an auction house down here called R.L. spear, and

(43:03):
they have. It's mostly props they. They just. They commissioned with prop
houses. And so these giant stuffed white polar
bears came up for sale.
And I already had painted the room this red, you know, this. This
bodello red. And my wife's like, what are you doing? I said, I want
to be like Jean Charles. And so fortunately, she. For

(43:26):
her, the bear went for more than I was willing to pay.
So we did not have a giant white stuffed polar bear in the wine
shop. But, you know, I think those.
I think those are part of the industry. I think you need to do those
things. I mean, that people accuse John Charles of ruining Buena Vista because
it was such a historical place in Sonoma and turning it Frenchie.

(43:48):
But you know what? I think that's part of the industry. The wines are good.
They're solid. He knows what he's doing in that regard. I love his
father's burgundies. You know, we. We. We
bring our personality to the table, and that's. I think that's perfectly fine
to do that. Yeah. When I first saw the. The Napoleon
signs walking up the walk at Bu. I'm like, oh, my God,

(44:11):
what's happened? But after I got to be friends with
Jo, I've taken people there, and it's still a great winery.
Great. Now you get it. We even. We've even thought
about using it as a wedding venue. So we'll. Wow.
Yeah. So we'll see. So what's. What's next with
longevity? What do you. What. What do you set your sights on? I know that

(44:33):
we're trying to weather this cycle here,
and it will happen. And I think my general advice to most
of the wineries that are doing this is just stay the course.
But what. What's on the horizon? More varietals,
techniques? What are you working on? You know, it's interesting when
you're partnered with somebody like a Franzi

(44:55):
family or a Bronco, you know, you have opportunities aren't
necessarily presented. They weren't presented to me before.
So, you know, line extensions. We can present a line
extension based on. On the need. Not necessarily because we
decided to plant, you know, eight years ago, this particular
varietal, so we can kind of move with

(45:17):
the industry. You know, we've gone through
an interesting transition. One of Fred's love
was the Helix cork. So when
we debuted nationally, we debuted with the Helix
cork. His cork didn't work. It
worked as a product. It didn't work as a product.

(45:39):
The public embraced. Yep. So
once we abandoned that and our scores shot
up, you know, we're just now starting to get traction. But
just as you start to get real traction, you know, like, RN DC is
restructured three times in the last 18 months, that.
That doesn't help. Right. You know, we've got a new

(46:01):
CEO at Bronco.
You know, he's. He's figured out his stride.
So, you know, and on top of that, the market is what the
market is. And, you know, if you have. If you have
deletes on any chain to
get back though that shelf space, it's a. It's a. It's a

(46:23):
steep uphill climb. So, yeah,
Helix didn't help with that. But. But like I said, I think we're in a
really good place now. I think we're. We've
addressed all of the issues, and we. We just got to really just
keep pedaling right now, and I think we're gonna. We're gonna get to where we
need to be. I didn't know that that was his product. I remember that. I

(46:44):
remember it. I saw a few of them come through here. You know, the
one thing about wine, the month Club was. And I started on Tuesday mornings. Every
morning for 35 years. Tuesdays, pure habit. I would start
tasting wine nine to two. And you saw everything, right? I mean you saw
every trend and everything that was contemporary or not working. I saw flavor
to everything. I mean it was just unbelievable what would come through the doors here.

(47:05):
And I would made sure I, I tasted it, you know, whether it was.
Had any potential at all to be in the club. It didn't matter. I would
just taste it. But you said something. I wanted to bring this up. Chastity
Cooper posted the Constellation
article about Constellation Brands possibly selling off
their, their wine sect sector which includes Mondavi and some amazing

(47:28):
brands. And I. You know how you post. If somebody posts something, you make
a reply. Usually the reply goes unnoticed or just somebody responds once
like the author of the article. But the most I had like
eight people respond to what I wrote after she
posted it. And I wrote the margins
suck. There's a generation, generational gap, dip in

(47:49):
sales. There was too much crap put on the market that flooded and
produce a sour taste for wine, pun intended.
But the good news is the product is 12,000
years, 12,000 years old. It's probably not going anywhere. Right. And I
think that's the stay the course part of the conversation.
I don't think wine's going anywhere.

(48:12):
You know, people say it, it's, it's
cyclical, you know, kind of like global warming.
If it's cyclical, it's definitely not revisiting anywhere it's been
before. No, that's true. Like I said, it's
a movement. You got to figure it out. You just have to, you gotta bob
and weave and you've got to anticipate the unexpected

(48:34):
and, and adjust, you know, innovate, adapt and overcome
as they said in the movie. So that's what you've got to keep
doing. There is. And we're out of time here. But I do want to
bring this up. There was. There is a contemporary movement
there, younger folks in the industry that
haven't gone through the school of hard knocks like you have and I have and

(48:55):
had to suffer through these cycles and understand. Try to try to figure out what
the next step is. Because the agriculture is slow
and as we talked about it's one time a year and you, you're thinking
five to seven years out of what you're going to be doing and. Right. If
the marketplace doesn't cooperate, you know, you, you've got decisions to make.
Correct. But one of the things is innovation. Somebody posted an Article

(49:17):
about they visited Paris wine and this Guy had sold
24 million bottles in six month of, you know, peach
flavored wine. And, and it was fermented grape juice, but
nothing. You can't call it wine in the sense of what you and I are
talking about. And so I always wonder what you thought of like this. What is
this innovation idea? What does it mean? What does that

(49:38):
mean? Let's innovate. Does it mean we innovate at the winery and
create a better version of what we are? Or
does it mean we go after packaging ideas and
we have, you know, thinner cans or taller bottles or whatever those they're going on.
What, what would that mean to you? Is there any thought process on
innovation in this industry? I mean, if you, it's interesting.

(50:01):
Innovation in this industry is a long,
slow train, right? If you look at a bottle of wine,
if there was no label on the bottle and no capsule,
that exact bottle, the only development there was
was when they figured out that they should make a punt so it would stand
up straight. Right. Other than that

(50:23):
change, that was the innovative part of the bottle.
So there hasn't been a lot of innovation.
You know, obviously labels are here, they're all over the place
and how you label the bottle, there's many ways you can do that
now, but overall there's not a lot of innovation.
So coming out with, you know, what do you do and so

(50:45):
call it. Why? Well, you can do, you know, we have a label called Four
Hearts, which is slightly frizz a
better for you flavored Moscato available Total Wine. There's
a black cherry flavor and there's a honeydew melon flavor.
Again, a little bit different, you know, different
audience. You know, four and a half percent alcohol, 80

(51:08):
calories a glass or something. So it's not, it's.
That's innovative. You know, people are coming. Like I saw
Matua has mature, you know, New Zealand SA Blanc,
but they also have one called Lighter which is like eight.
I, I think, don't quote me, eight something alcohol and
less calories. That's right, yeah. So there's always going to

(51:30):
be these little variations that continue to change to try to
answer the consumer's desire at the time. Like,
like right now, like the big
over the top alcohol wines are coming into focus. Why
are people buying 16 and a half percent alcohol wine? I know, right?
I don't get it. But it's, but it's a thing. But it's a different direction

(51:52):
than what the other direction was. Correct. It's A totally different
direction. So I think innovation within the industry is,
is those sort of idiosyncrasies rather
than. I mean we've all seen somebody. You put wine in a
box that's only so successful. You put wine in a
can that's only so successful. Overall,

(52:13):
the bottles aren't going away, you know.
And like I said, the punt was the genius.
Yeah, that was big. And the cork, you know, that was it. Madame
Clico did.
But that's a. Interesting thought because I wonder.
I contacted, Remember Ariel, the, the non alkal wine that's been. I

(52:36):
mean I was stocking non alkaline in my dad's wine shop. So it's
not new. Right. It's been around. It's always been the same
suffer, suffer. You suffer through drinking a glass of it. But I
contacted, I think it was Rodney Strong makes that particular brand.
And I go, he goes, it's. It's 3% of our sales, you
know. And so I'm wondering if, if any of these things ever become

(52:59):
the major traction. These,
these innovative ideas, flavored wines,
cans, Tetra packs, whatever, ever become a major part of the sales
volume of a regular brand like Longevity, that makes Cabernet
and makes Infinil mix, whatever. And we have, you have to have these other things
on the shelf. Like you said, total wine. Yeah. I think those

(53:21):
customers, pardon the pun, the longevity of wine is going to
be. What we know is wine. I think that's it. Like you said, the
non alks, they're going to come and they're going. They're being introduced to a new
audience for all intents and purposes. So they're not the ones that sort of
have that background inherent in them of knowing what other wines are
like. And if they get on board with the non elk and they think this

(53:43):
is good for you and this is what wine tastes like because they really don't
have any experience what wine tastes like. Right. And I think it's going to be
around to a small degree, but I think it's going to hit little blips
and, and come and go. Just. I think they're going to be the little
innovative things. They're going to be temporary blips on the scale. Then I don't think
they're going to have a huge long term trajectory like, like a

(54:04):
normal bottle of wine would. That's a.
I think that's what I think. That's my opinion.
Well, it's been a wonderful conversation. We're already at 50 minutes. So happy
we had a chance to connect and get you. Catch you away here in Maryland.
Good luck with your wine. Dinner coming up. Oh, thank you. Be successful, be a
lot of fun. I'd love to visit one of those. I'd love to come see

(54:26):
Livermore. I've not been up in years. Are you guys putting on another
tasting for the AAAB again soon?
Yes, and we're in the planning stages of
the next symposium. I. I don't know if we have a date
but as soon as we do we'll be publishing it for sure. And
now we're going to. Was that open to the public? I don't think it was.

(54:48):
Was it? I believe it was. Yeah, it was open to the public.
Okay. Again thanks for the time today
and fascinating conversation and I hope we get a chance to shake hands again
next time we other. Yeah, I look forward to it. Thanks a lot,
Paul. Cheers.