July 24, 2025 • 43 mins
This is absolutely incredible. During this conversation with Master of Wine Tim Hanni, I had to step back and take a breather. He speaks on such a level about wine and the errors of the industry and packs so much into a single sentence, one must just ask him to stop to let the listener regroup. And then you can't wait to get to the next subject.
Tim Hanni has a knack for stirring up the wine world—and not just in the glass. Master of Wine, self-proclaimed neurodivergent, and recovering vertical thinker, Tim upends every rule you thought you knew about wine and food pairing. In this episode, you’ll tumble down the rabbit hole of wine “education,” learning why the very idea of a standardized language for wine is more myth than method, and why trying to force consumers into rigid tasting frameworks makes about as much sense as serving Château Yquem only after dessert. Tim invites us to step outside the vertical “vacuum” of tradition, where “experts” argue endlessly over points, metaphors, and what makes a wine “authentic,” regardless of what real people like or taste. Instead, you’ll explore horizontal segmentation—a visionary approach that asks what you enjoy, rather than lecturing you on what you’re supposed to like. He’ll open your eyes to the untold culinary histories of France, China, and beyond, exposing how local customs—think mixing wine with water, Cognac with Sprite, or the Spanish cult of Calimocho—defied all the snobbery and made wine approachable. Beyond the chemistry and the clichés, Tim shows how genetics, perception, and even childhood memories shape your palate. Unravel the neuroplastic threads connecting culture, biology, and psychology, and discover why language about wine is as personal and subjective as taste itself. Trust us, you’ll come away from this conversation empowered to toss aside intimidation, embrace your own preferences, and maybe even splash a little Coca-Cola in your glass—because as Tim reveals, the future of wine isn’t about changing you to fit the wine, but letting the wine world finally fit you.
✅ Think wine is all about fancy rules and stuffy traditions? Think again.
✅ Master of Wine Tim Hanni and host Paul Kalemkiarian shatter the myths around wine language, food pairing, and what REALLY matters when you pour a glass.
✅ On this episode of Wine Talks, they dive into why the “rules” of wine are mostly illusions, how perception and neurodiversity shape our tastes, and why the industry needs a massive shake-up.
✅ Bottom line: Forget the snobbery—wine is about YOUR experience, not outdated dogma.
Mentioned in the podcast:
Monell Chemical Senses Center
Website: https://www.monell.org/
Suntory (Japanese company referenced for scotch and wine ventures)
Website: https://www.suntory.com/
#wine #winetalks #timhanni #paulkalemkiarian #wineindustry #wineeducation #neurodivergence #winepairing #sensoryscience #winelover #perception #winemyths #foodandwine #winetasting #winelanguage #winehistory #verticalsegmentation #horizontalsegmentation #mindgenomics #wineculture
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
We don't need to change the language of wine
because there is no
standardized language of wine. Trying to think there
is a standardized language is going right back into that
vertical vacuum. Sit back and grab a glass.
It's Wine Talks with Paul K.
(00:23):
If you're just joining us, this is Wine Talks with Paul KF Master of Wine
Tim Hanai on the show. And we're catching up on some of our, some of
our conversations previously and of course, what's been going on on the web. So we'll
just continue the thoughts as you're going, which is you were talking about
the vertical versus the horizontal segmentation. And this is an interesting
thought. And I, I kind of poo pooed it back when
(00:45):
I first read somebody talk about this. And this is years and years ago, I
think it was just a distributor or somebody has said, well, the wine
industry is not doing it right because we should be going out and finding what
the consumer wants and creating that brand
versus we're going to toe the line here and we're going to make Shovel
Blanc the way Shovel Blanc always is or whatever we're talking about. And
(01:07):
we have to have the consumer come to us.
I'm assuming that's sort of what you're talking about. Yeah. And,
and, you know, this, this harkens back for me
roughly to 1990 and,
you know, as the wine and food pairing guru of the time, according to
(01:29):
Janice Robinson, and you know, having passed a Master of
Wine exam and, and, and I
knew in my heart of hearts something was, was really wrong.
And, and I was guru. Well,
that, what I was saying about why you have this dish
(01:51):
with that line and all, all this stuff.
And, and I, I took it to a
really, really extreme level and I was good at the shtick.
But I knew in my heart, you know, I could have five wine
experts, five chefs, and, and five
consumers, and everybody try this
(02:14):
magical pairing. And, and the experts
don't, the chefs don't agree and the consumers don't
agree. But that's an interesting thought, though. I mean,
there's another movement that you've probably read about on LinkedIn as you and I hang
out there, where, God, they're saying that probably most
people in America, in the world, actually don't care about food pairing
(02:37):
or don't know what you're talking about anyway, and so don't understand
what that means to pair food, except that, you know, we should have food with
wine. But other than that, what's the,
it. Goes even deeper than that. The French didn't either
they never did. That's a problem. You know, and so what
we've done is we've, we've constructed this
(03:00):
massive delusion, if you will, and,
and it's now become Wine Education 101.
People in the industry, people in France can't even look back
and get that. If you were in some
region, you know, on the coast where fish was,
(03:21):
you know, what you did, Normandy and things a la die plaz
and whatever, because I'm, I am, I am a
gastronomic nerd and
trivialist. You had the wine that
was local. You didn't go out and, and buy
something else because you were having
(03:45):
pork versus beef versus fish versus lamb.
And, and the wines were nothing like anything today.
Yeah, right. So, so there's really no basis, you know. Oh, well,
the, the, the, you know,
lo. Locally grown goes with, with this by some
(04:05):
magic. That's no truth to that either.
And if, if you were at the table in France
back in the 60s, so this isn't like really going back
a huge amount of time.
If, if, if you're serving the wine, then,
(04:25):
and grandmama doesn't like it,
put a little water and a sugar cube in it and add a splash of
fruit, lur cassis or, or whatever. Not.
None of this was ever part of France.
And, and, and so this started to occur for me.
(04:48):
Right. You know, in conjunction with learning about critical
thinking and passing the Master of Wine exam. And also what,
what I hope we'll get into is the Neurod divergence.
And, and I'm going, you know, wait a minute, we've got
this wrong. So, so, and I can back this up
all day and all night. I've got Larousse Gastronomique sitting in my
(05:12):
bathroom. And, and it clearly states
under the fairly large section of wine
that when serving wine and food, it
goes through certain protocols, but it clearly states,
when we serve the finest dishes, bring out the
(05:32):
Chateau Lafitte, bring out the Romanet,
the Hermitage,
or if the guests prefer
Sauternes, white wines,
whatever. So if you're serving the fine
(05:52):
dish, sir, Fine wines, and serve red wine
or white wine, dry wine or sweet wine. And
this goes back actually centuries. And then they
put in a wine and food pairing chart. And this is
the 1961 Crown edition of Larousse
Gastronomic. And it shows before the meal,
(06:14):
serve the port, serve the sherry
and this and that with the hors d'. Oeuvre,
serve Montrachet or Chateau Yquem, because
Chateau Chem was never a dessert wine. We. That's a
modern construct of the BS of the wine industry.
And, and Sauterne is in
(06:37):
crisis. And, and not because the wines
aren't great, because our absolute
asinine obsplemib view the sweet
wine's bad wine, which we'll get into when we get into
that horizontal, vertical kind of thing. So
what we've done is we've create. Created this
(06:58):
absolute mess. Global wine
consumption is, you know what, whatever data you want to look at, but
it's a catastrophe. And then
we wonder why. My mom used to say, and my mom was a great cook
and she had the books you're talking about. I've got even,
I don't know, 61 edition of Escofier's book.
(07:21):
So she always said wine, food is chemistry.
And so if you look at as pragmatic as food is chemistry, which I think
people would agree that when you, you know, certain things go well together, certain
things work and how you. In fermentation of bread. My daughter's a
trained boulanger. That, that, that is chemistry. Are you
saying that throw all, throw that idea at the. Out
(07:43):
the window because really, food pairing. And I'm not gonna say it's, I'm not
saying it's a hoax because I, I
don't know, I don't, I don't subscribe to it. And I think the Internet's right
in the sense that we intimidate people into thinking that you need to understand that
in order to enjoy a glass of wine and enjoy a meal. And I don't
agree with that. And that sometimes it is just hocus pocus and the
(08:04):
chemistry doesn't really matter. So, so let's go back. Let's take it one step
at your. At a time because
it becomes very complex. An awful lot of
people kind of hear about what I do or take a.
A sound bite or whatever, hate my guts and I'm. I'm the
devil. We were talking about
(08:27):
over intellectualization, right? Yes. So
what happened here's over an old. Over
intellectualization. And,
and it is chemistry. We're chemistry. That's
a very good point. This pen is chemistry. Yes.
So what happens is we, we glom onto
(08:52):
metaphors and heuristics, all right, which
are neurological ways to deal
with. The. Complexity of
the universe and kind of break it down into simple terms.
So I'm going to get to. Yes, wine and food is chem
(09:12):
chemistry, but not in the heuristic or
metaphorical sense that we think.
Just like when people think, oh, it grows together, it goes together.
I was going to say that. What the, what the hell?
Yeah, and, and so if,
(09:34):
if, if we take. Well,
and, and this is a problem with, with, with talking with
me. I'm, I want to talk really quickly about the
difference of horizontal segmentation
versus vertical segmentation. Let's do it.
It's, it's really important in, in explaining all this. It,
(09:56):
it. And, and I finally got
data to clarify all this in my crazy mind.
Vertical segmentation is where you
take a product in the
product attributes and that experts agree
(10:16):
this is what the product should be like. This is
what those who are in the know
know what the product should be. And then there's all sorts of
arguments within that. How do you evaluate it? How do you rate it?
What's terrible? All that, all that, all that BS is happening
in a, in a vertical conversation.
(10:41):
And, and what it requires is then, okay,
oh, you want to learn about wine? This is what you got to learn about.
Including all these unreserved, unresolved arguments. All
this bs, all you've got to learn about it to
appreciate it. I evaluate
(11:01):
it this way. No, you're stupid. I use points. No, you're
stupid. I use descriptive metaphors. I'm better than
you are. And it's, it's all happening in this vacuum
of a vertical integration. And, and if you don't get
it, you're too stupid to use the product.
Okay, that's very well said. Despite the. Yay.
(11:24):
Thank God. It's the first time in my life I've been able to actually
have somebody say that about. Honest
to God, I swear to God, I got it. Maybe.
So, so, and
to top all of this off, and this is something going on
(11:45):
at a really, really high level with my
mentors and researchers and scientists
around the world.
Wine relies on
sensory science to understand the phenomenon, right?
Sensory panels and sensory scientists and
(12:07):
so forth. Well, in the vertical model,
sensory science is the back ass words way
to look at things. It's hugely important
and it's complex and there's all these wonderful, wonderful sensory
scientists, but it's the
scientific process within this vertical
(12:30):
vacuum, if you will. So
I've been struggling literally for decades
how to explain all of this and
whatever. And
during COVID I
ran into research and data that I'm always
(12:53):
looking at more
from a focus of what's called perceptual science.
And the difference being sensory science is the product
up. All right, we're going to
analyze the product, we're going to talk about the
(13:14):
sensations and so forth. And again,
extremely important. But it's really the perception
that's the important thing. Sensory
scientists know that they can put together
this panel of experts and consumers and chefs and
(13:34):
whatever, and say, I want. Want you to evaluate the
acidity of this wine, okay. And rate
it on a heuristic scale. Some people
in all of these groups are going, oh, that's very pleasant. I like that.
Some others are saying, oh, it's way too sour.
(13:56):
Some are going in their head and saying, oh, I see how the racing
acidity pairs with the food and washes your
palate, whatever. And you get a shit show. At the end of
the day, you have no usable data. Racing
acidity. And then you give
them something sweet. Oh, this is yucky.
(14:19):
Overly sweet for beginners and,
and other people. Consumers are going, oh, I like this.
And, and. And whatever. So sensory science
in, in certain
evaluations and, you know, when
in use at a, At a winery for doing your
(14:41):
blends and whatever, absolutely incredible
work done. But it's the bot. It's in
the vacuum, the
horizontal model. And, and this is a guy,
Henry Moritz. What's. What's his
(15:02):
name? Howard. Howard
Mos. Actually Moskowitz,
uh, in. Invented something called mind
genomics. And he's the one that created this
whole thing of horizontal versus whatever. And he did it with
rep. The first application was Ragu spaghetti
(15:24):
sauce. And he said, rather than
us sitting around in our vacuum defining what
consumers should like and having to tell them they should like it because
it's authentic and it's Mama's recipe and, and
all this stuff, why don't we look at consumers from
the top down and ask them and learn
(15:47):
about them and what their
preferences, their expectations and so forth, and
we can make innumerable
market segments and then have
products differentiated for the market.
(16:08):
Well, I think. Do you think that applies then? I mean, do you think
a bottle of pasta sauce that Mama made. Hang
on, I. I think I'll state it here for the first
time. I think this will completely
change forever how wine is looked at and marketed,
that it will allow us to look at
(16:30):
millennials. Not like they all want one thing.
There are millennials who want authenticity
in this. There are millennials who want
gamification, and in technology, there
are millennials who want
natural or organic or sustainable.
(16:53):
We just don't know how to differentiate it.
So let me stop for a second. I had. Maybe it
was Felicity Carter. I can't remember who I was speaking with, but she said, Somebody
said. And we've tried to talk to the whiners about this and try to
talk to the industry about this. And I hate it when I hear, you know,
Gen Z are saying the industry needs to change because they don't. They have been
(17:14):
in the industry long enough to know what needs to change. But the idea
that, that the traditional,
let's just say the Bordel, the Burgundians, the, the
Kean folks just ignore this stuff,
Is that accurate? It doesn't matter
(17:35):
to me. I don't care. This
is another thing I was telling my wife.
I wish I had come across this, this clarity
in what I'm trying to accomplish before I was at the
age of physical decomposition,
(17:57):
but I honestly don't care. And here's the other thing.
Here's the other thing, Paul. This is so important for
the people who have a formula, who have their wines
sold out on allocation, who don't have to discount it, who
don't they've got their distribution. They.
There's nothing to change. Yeah, that's true. So,
(18:21):
so there will always be
that vertical thinking.
And I honestly don't give a rat's
ass if anyone or anyone
changes anything. They do. If the
(18:41):
wine industry really wants to
survive and prosper
and thrive and be healthy, the model has to change
and it has to change quickly. And so this.
I'm, I'm. Are you familiar with the
Monell Chemical Census center in Philadelphia? No.
(19:04):
It's the largest
and most prestigious organization in the world
focused on the science of chemosensory
perception, which
is validating your mom.
Chemosensory is how molecules
(19:28):
are. Act as
stimuli. The, the pathways, the neural
way that they create the
neurotransmitters that go throughout our brain to get
processed, turned into meaning and so on and so
forth and then into perception.
(19:52):
I've been working with them for 35 years and the work they
do is just mind blowing. So
that's interesting. Let me ask this. Why now? Why do you think?
Based on what I just said about, you know, the traditionalists not wanting to change
because we've been doing this for six. But why not? What's the confluence in the
industry, a confluence in the consumers that has
(20:15):
told you it's if we don't change, we're toast.
Well, and thank you. That's actually a perfect,
perfect question. So here's the confluence.
I think it's fair to say that there's
never been a more incredible
diversity of product, of wine, of
(20:39):
styles, of flavors, of price points.
How about that? And, and diversity of where it's
successfully grown
and, you know, from New Jersey to, to
China. To, you know, places no one
(21:00):
ever associated with wine. Right,
Good point. I've been trying to
some somehow distill my
crazy thinking into something understandable and
actionable. I've
done work in China for almost 35 years
(21:25):
and I watched the explosion of growth. And I
was, I've been to wine regions where
I, I've been where
ice wine is made and you can look across
the Yalu river to the northern border of
North Korea and the value that. That brought
(21:48):
to. In prosperity to an area that was
absolutely devastated by, by change and
whatever. All of a sudden it's fire, it's got wine tourism,
it's got a product in pride. And
this is happening all around the world. But
I also know through a lot of
(22:11):
research that I tap into and go
into the Chinese population is
not genetically predisposed to drink
red wine. There
are bitter sensitivities and so on and so forth.
(22:32):
So there was before President Xi, the president
declared, we're going to become a nation of red wine
drinkers. Red is heart healthy. Red is metaphorically important.
And due to a number of things that
happened in confluence with this.
(22:52):
And the reason they were doing this was to divert
grain and, and, and, you know,
rice and, and barley and other things back into the food chain from
beer production. Because they were a nation of beer drinkers primarily
and that. And they're, you know, maotai and things like that.
So they, that was the strategy.
(23:15):
Well, sorry. That was the mission in the strategy. Let's become red
wine drinkers. Well, they don't like red wine. It
doesn't matter if it goes with their food or not, because that's stupid.
You get this huge thing with, with so many
diverse foods. How do you do wine and food pairing? Which is, by the way,
how French cuisine used to be. But it's another story.
(23:37):
How did they put. I guess that's why they put, you know, there was whole
stories early on. They were putting Coca Cola in there, right? No, they weren't. Where
the Coca Cola's being put in the wine, it saved
the Basque wine industry. It's called Calamocho. They've
got a statue to the guy who popularized the most
popular drink, especially with young people in the
(23:58):
Basque regions of France and Spain, is 50 red
wine and 50 Coca Cola. I've never heard that. And I have.
Well, look, yeah, K A L I
M O T X A calumoto.
Oh, the Chinese did not do that because all that was all they
may. Or may not have. They did it with, with, with cognac.
(24:21):
Because you know, cognac had. China saved
the cognac industry and, and they
were willing to spend for it, but it tasted like crap. So they, and
literally you go into a banquet even in the
US to a really, really traditional in LA
or, or, or San Francisco and
(24:44):
look how they set up for a true prestigious
Chinese banquet. And you will see
usually 2 liter bottles of Sprite
7 up in Coca Cola and that's there
expressly to be blended with cognac. Well,
(25:04):
but here the fresh used to do that. We
don't have any clue what the French used to do. That's true.
This is know we make these faces and whatever in our
vertical vacuum and we don't know the history
and we don't know that, that the, the most popular
drink in Spain was sangria.
(25:27):
Yeah. Not freaking Tao. It
wasn't tempranillo, it was sangria. I, I can see this.
Sorry to interrupt you. I can see this in your vertical description
of you know, the industry. And so that, yeah, you
keep banging against the walls of this vertical cylinder.
Oh my God. I can get that. So you were
(25:49):
talking about neurodivergence. Not sure where that plays into
this. Yeah, horizontal part of it.
Somebody sent me a video of
a, of this hysterical
standup routine and,
and I'm going to frame this with all of a sudden
(26:13):
it's like there's a coming out party
for neurodivergent people
and it's just my, it, it just. I want to be invited to the party.
Well, you're, you'll be seeing more and more of us and hearing more
promos. So somebody sent me a video
(26:35):
and it's an autistic
lesbian
stand up comedian. Really.
And she's talking. When I was in Australia,
I think when I was in second grade,
(26:55):
our teacher said, children, we're going to learn about
prepositions. And the
proposition shows a
relationship of two things to each
other. Like Johnny is near the box.
What's the preposition? And she holds up her hand,
(27:16):
she goes, I have questions. Why is Johnny
near the box? And
it keeps going on. I've got questions.
What's in the box? Neurodivergence. I like it. The teacher's trying to explain
it to her and get more frustrated. The kids are laughing their ass off.
(27:36):
And, and then she said, I finally noticed everyone
was laughing. She said, I like that.
I have to, I don't see that because my daughter's a, you know, master's in
child
counseling. That would be really for her. So,
so, so here you go. First time on tape.
(27:59):
I am America's first
openly neurodivergent,
ADHD dyslexic, recovering
alcoholic, Master of wine.
My brain doesn't work the same way, and that's actually
how I pass a Master of Wine examination.
(28:21):
That's because I can look at things from so many different
perspectives. The hard part was getting it all
into any kind of cohesive essay,
you know, for the examination. So this applies
to the wine trade. I mean, I can see how your perspectives,
and that's why I put you back on the show, because I wanted to hear
(28:42):
them. But I can see in this industry an alternative
or neurodivergent viewpoint of what's going
on to make the changes you're talking about need to be changed.
Yeah. And. And so the research I'm
doing from Perceptual Sciences
is to understand you, your mom,
(29:04):
everybody has created their
perception, literally, of the universe based
on individual genetics,
which determine. This is one of the big reasons the
sensory scientists have such a hard time.
You may have certain taste buds I don't have.
(29:28):
I was just on a BBC BBC World
Global thing with
one of the. With the chief scientists from
a Manell Chemical census Center, and. And she was actually
doing the. The genetic portion identical
to what I do because they'd been my mentors for 35 years. And she
(29:51):
says, you know, somebody, you know, smells a wine and says, oh, I get raspberry
this. And she says, and it's a result of this molecule. That's what they
do at motel. And she says, and I don't have that receptor.
You can talk till you're blue in the face about your raspberries,
your this or that or. And you can argue about your point systems and
whatever, but genetically, that is our
(30:14):
grounding for everything we experience. Light, sound,
everything else. That information has to go through neural
pathways that can be conditioned over time.
So neurotransmitters are what make us feel happy or
sad or give us energy or
depression and pain and
(30:37):
all this kind of stuff. And then the brain has to
process all of that. And the brain
is subject to something called neuroplasticity, which is
learning, and it's repair of the brain from damage and
all this kind of stuff. So literally, when you learn something,
a new language or whatever, you've re. You've physically
(31:00):
rewired your brain, and then there's psychology.
And so your mom said, all right, Paul,
we're going to have spaghetti tonight. But you can't have any
because you did this. And now you associate
spaghetti with being punished with your mom while
somebody else is not doing that. But that's
(31:23):
you. So my new book, the
perception project that we. This is. This is now the whole
formula for how it's being written. And so from a
perceptual standpoint, we're. We're able to look at a person and say,
oh, you know, I. Are you smelling this?
(31:44):
No, it's interesting. You. You know, I don't even get that. And we know
this is out there. We science. Every day you have those conversations.
I always wondered if it was because they smelled it
and didn't know how to describe it or they just didn't smell it. And it
sounds. Well, we don't know how to. We. This. Descriptions
are made up. Yeah. Descriptions are a
(32:06):
fantasy and we've just got to get that. And there's. There's an
incredible neurological study done in the University of
Bordeaux about languaging. I won't even get into that. But
here's what it looks like. Paul. Now if. If we're open
enough to do that, Here's a glass of wine. Do you like that? No, it's
too sweet. Okay, great. Let me. Let's try. Try
(32:27):
this. Not. Well, not. Not.
Let me. Let me finish. Sort of. And. And. Well. Oh,
I. I smell this in the raspberries. Oh, great.
I don't. But like. Or minerality. I. I
don't care what. What. I want to find you the wine you're going to love.
(32:49):
Well, what food should I have? What food do you love?
Well, aren't I supposed to prepare wine and food? I said,
you know, that's all made up. If, if you'd like, I can give you.
Oh, I could give you classical pairings that aren't really. Or I can give you
the. Goes together, grows together. Or I can introduce
you to flavor modulation. And that is
(33:12):
that. This goes back to your mom. The chemistry that
certain things in combination, depending on
your genetics and your. In your
brain plasticity will modulate,
meaning go either go up or go down. The easiest
example of this. Brush teeth drink orange juice. Yeah, that's
(33:35):
one of the old school ones. So that's. And that's actually
defined by a perceptual
phenomenon called flavor modulation. And it's easy
to explain. Oh, is. Is this state going to be
good with my red wine? Well, how much. What do
you like the balance of the wine? It's. It's a little strong
(33:58):
for me, a little bitter. Oh, so don't have this steak because it's got a
sweet teriyaki glaze or some
cockamamie shit. And that's going to be like, brush your teeth, drink orange juice.
This steak has a maitre d' hotel
butter, which has lemon juice in it. And by the way, in
Tuscany, they'd always serve lemons with their bisteca all
(34:21):
Fiorentina. It's not the steak. The steak actually is
opposite of what the experts tell you it really is.
It's the salt you put on it and a little squeeze of lemon, and
that'll have a modulation. It'll make the wine smoother.
You know, I don't like red wine. You love Moscato. I love
Moscato. Historically, if you
(34:44):
had steak in Italy and somebody wanted Moscato, nobody would bat an eye.
It's delicious. You know, you had
two things in there that I'm going to dumb down a little bit just for
the listeners to the scent of. You know how it applies, like, Daily
One is, you know, my wife, you know, she's come a long
way in the wine consumption since we got married. She used to drink Gallo
(35:06):
Chablis, but. But I know what she drinks, and I don't
bother trying to get her to drink anything else. So she won't drink Syrah. She's
able to. She's able to grab Syrah out of the. Out of the air. She
knows when she puts her nose to the glass, she's not going to like it.
It's always Sarah. I can never stump her. I don't care if I give her
a roan or Central Valley, it doesn't matter. She catches
me. And so I got tired of trying. It's. I know what she likes to
(35:28):
drink, and I stay in that range. The other thing that you said that I
think is really important for people to hear because you hear this all
the time. And I've had many people say on the show, we need to change
the language of wine. What do you mean, change the language of wine? If you
tell me today that as you were saying, and your. Your
philosophy is right on your theory in that if I
(35:49):
don't smell those raspberries, there's a couple reasons why. One is I don't have the
ability to smell them because my receptors don't do it, or I just don't understand
what you're telling me to try and smell. So
if you change that to Captain Crunch or Fruit Loops,
which is what some of these gen zers and millennials want to do, like you
need to change, we make it more, more accessible. Well, I don't know what you
(36:10):
mean if you tell me it smells like. Fruit Loops, Let me jump in because
I think we're probably going to run out of time before this. Yes.
We don't need to change the language of wine
because there is no
standardized language of wine Again.
So trying to think there's a standardized language
(36:33):
is going right back into that vertical vacuum.
You're right. You're. We're right back in it. And to say,
you know, my wife's come a long way because she used to drink
that, that's actually a
pretty unfortunate judgment of the people who still drink it.
(36:54):
Seriously. Good point. I suppose we don't.
The long and short of it, we don't even think before we
speak. Or, or, or look, and that's
interesting point. The neurodivergent mind
is not focus. The reason I
ADHD happens my. In neuroscience
(37:16):
can show my brain's firing off all over the place.
And so I look at things
that, that, that, that
other people don't look at going together. And this is not
necessarily a benefit. This has been a curse for my entire
life. And for the first time, I'm
(37:39):
beginning to understand why. In grade school,
I was in the corner. I was the class clown,
and I was a. My report cards went
to. Went from little Timmy needs to settle down a little
bit to this son of a bitch is going to be incarcerated if you don't
figure out what the hell to do with them. Seriously.
(38:01):
And there's millions like me. And so when
this comedienne starts, starts
going and she discovered she. These are legitimate
questions she had. And it ended up with
this whole different. Trying to explain prepositions
a different way. And everybody's laughing.
(38:24):
She's enjoying the laughter. And
she goes. And I found everybody laughing. And I like
that. Oh, no, let's,
let's spend the last few minutes on this, this, this coming out of the
neurodivergence thing. Like when you say that there's a. I don't
say renaissance of it, but an understanding of it. Is that what you mean? Well,
(38:47):
there's an understanding and that's been growing for, for decades.
My son, who's an electrical engineer, you know, at a major,
major company, his, his
first year of school was absolute hell. He didn't want to go to school.
You couldn't make him. He's absolutely brilliant.
(39:07):
And we, we were very, very,
very diligent about his ADHD
diagnosis, what kind of ADHD and medication.
And that wasn't available to me ever. All
right, so even more
(39:28):
so, the, the coming out of Neurodivergence is just the ability to say, hey,
I'm a dyslexic ADHD nut case
and I'm of, of a lot of value in some cases.
Well, that's, that's interesting to be discovering wine.
And here's the craziest of it all, Paul. I'm writing my
(39:49):
book in this fashion of 35 years
of 65 years, 60 years of
passion and understanding of gastronomy and wine and
wine culture, becoming a master of wine and so on and so forth.
I have discovered. And my new book is being written to take
(40:11):
all my concepts and really
carefully use AI because
AI, if artificial intelligence with the right
inputs is, is just amazing. Everything has
to be fact checked. And then I post it on Facebook
to see if I've actually gotten it in a way
(40:34):
that people go, oh, I get that like you just did. That is a
result of me taking these random thoughts, putting them
into AI, putting, then carefully
editing that to, to make sure it's what I want, putting
it AI. Oh, I've got to change this because people are getting stuck
there or they don't understand this. And
(40:56):
that was. Right. That was never available to anyone before. And
it's a new phenomenon. So when do you expect the
releases book. By the
end of the year. And things are, things are just going
quickly because what I'm doing now is I'm writing, I do.
I just rewrote the introduction. It's the introduction of the books
(41:18):
available on LinkedIn and. Oh, cool.
And I've got it edited and I've got feedback, I've clarified it
because people say well. And then all of a sudden
somebody mentioned Howard Moskowitz
again. I went oh geez, I forgot about Howard. And then
I reframed the whole goddamn thing and it's now in my manuscript.
(41:42):
We're going to leave it at that today we're going to do this again. I'm
in big trouble if I don't get back to my 7 year old, my 5
year old granddaughter's birthday party. Please do. Yeah. Yes,
my back was against the wall. But I do want to have you send me
the link to that comedian if you can find it. I will. You know what?
(42:02):
Yeah, let me do. I'm doing that for actually because
I just met a neurodivergent chief
marketing officer and head of product development
for what's the Japanese
scotch company? What's that?
Suntory. And she just did a whole post about her
(42:25):
neurodivergence. And so I contacted
her, I said, but I said I had
AI
post this about why we should meet.
And it's a tim hat. I does this, this and this. And you
(42:46):
guys should get together because of this. And I said that you got
back to me in an hour. We're speaking next week. That's so fun. They
own Chateau La Gaffier, I think, also. Oh, you know, I think they're out
of the wine business now. Oh, they sell it, maybe. Yeah. Them
and how in the. And that's what's happening around the world. People are
bailing online. It's just. Yeah. So, anyways, well, thank
(43:08):
Thanksgiving. Really great. Great talking with you. Thanks for putting up
with my insanity. No, we're going to do it again. We have to stay in
touch because I just, it's, it's a fascinating part of the
perception of the trade and I think we need to, we need to discuss it,
continue it. Oh, it's. I, I, I'll tell. I, I
honestly think in my waning years of life, my life
(43:29):
work. In my wife's life. Yeah. Again.
Yeah. I think, I think I might have it.
Cheers. Thank you. All the best, buddy.
We don't need to change the language of wine
because there is no
standardized language of wine. Trying to think there
is a standardized language is going right back into that
vertical vacuum. Sit back and grab a glass.
It's Wine Talks with Paul K.
(00:23):
If you're just joining us, this is Wine Talks with Paul KF Master of Wine
Tim Hanai on the show. And we're catching up on some of our, some of
our conversations previously and of course, what's been going on on the web. So we'll
just continue the thoughts as you're going, which is you were talking about
the vertical versus the horizontal segmentation. And this is an interesting
thought. And I, I kind of poo pooed it back when
(00:45):
I first read somebody talk about this. And this is years and years ago, I
think it was just a distributor or somebody has said, well, the wine
industry is not doing it right because we should be going out and finding what
the consumer wants and creating that brand
versus we're going to toe the line here and we're going to make Shovel
Blanc the way Shovel Blanc always is or whatever we're talking about. And
(01:07):
we have to have the consumer come to us.
I'm assuming that's sort of what you're talking about. Yeah. And,
and, you know, this, this harkens back for me
roughly to 1990 and,
you know, as the wine and food pairing guru of the time, according to
(01:29):
Janice Robinson, and you know, having passed a Master of
Wine exam and, and, and I
knew in my heart of hearts something was, was really wrong.
And, and I was guru. Well,
that, what I was saying about why you have this dish
(01:51):
with that line and all, all this stuff.
And, and I, I took it to a
really, really extreme level and I was good at the shtick.
But I knew in my heart, you know, I could have five wine
experts, five chefs, and, and five
consumers, and everybody try this
(02:14):
magical pairing. And, and the experts
don't, the chefs don't agree and the consumers don't
agree. But that's an interesting thought, though. I mean,
there's another movement that you've probably read about on LinkedIn as you and I hang
out there, where, God, they're saying that probably most
people in America, in the world, actually don't care about food pairing
(02:37):
or don't know what you're talking about anyway, and so don't understand
what that means to pair food, except that, you know, we should have food with
wine. But other than that, what's the,
it. Goes even deeper than that. The French didn't either
they never did. That's a problem. You know, and so what
we've done is we've, we've constructed this
(03:00):
massive delusion, if you will, and,
and it's now become Wine Education 101.
People in the industry, people in France can't even look back
and get that. If you were in some
region, you know, on the coast where fish was,
(03:21):
you know, what you did, Normandy and things a la die plaz
and whatever, because I'm, I am, I am a
gastronomic nerd and
trivialist. You had the wine that
was local. You didn't go out and, and buy
something else because you were having
(03:45):
pork versus beef versus fish versus lamb.
And, and the wines were nothing like anything today.
Yeah, right. So, so there's really no basis, you know. Oh, well,
the, the, the, you know,
lo. Locally grown goes with, with this by some
(04:05):
magic. That's no truth to that either.
And if, if you were at the table in France
back in the 60s, so this isn't like really going back
a huge amount of time.
If, if, if you're serving the wine, then,
(04:25):
and grandmama doesn't like it,
put a little water and a sugar cube in it and add a splash of
fruit, lur cassis or, or whatever. Not.
None of this was ever part of France.
And, and, and so this started to occur for me.
(04:48):
Right. You know, in conjunction with learning about critical
thinking and passing the Master of Wine exam. And also what,
what I hope we'll get into is the Neurod divergence.
And, and I'm going, you know, wait a minute, we've got
this wrong. So, so, and I can back this up
all day and all night. I've got Larousse Gastronomique sitting in my
(05:12):
bathroom. And, and it clearly states
under the fairly large section of wine
that when serving wine and food, it
goes through certain protocols, but it clearly states,
when we serve the finest dishes, bring out the
(05:32):
Chateau Lafitte, bring out the Romanet,
the Hermitage,
or if the guests prefer
Sauternes, white wines,
whatever. So if you're serving the fine
(05:52):
dish, sir, Fine wines, and serve red wine
or white wine, dry wine or sweet wine. And
this goes back actually centuries. And then they
put in a wine and food pairing chart. And this is
the 1961 Crown edition of Larousse
Gastronomic. And it shows before the meal,
(06:14):
serve the port, serve the sherry
and this and that with the hors d'. Oeuvre,
serve Montrachet or Chateau Yquem, because
Chateau Chem was never a dessert wine. We. That's a
modern construct of the BS of the wine industry.
And, and Sauterne is in
(06:37):
crisis. And, and not because the wines
aren't great, because our absolute
asinine obsplemib view the sweet
wine's bad wine, which we'll get into when we get into
that horizontal, vertical kind of thing. So
what we've done is we've create. Created this
(06:58):
absolute mess. Global wine
consumption is, you know what, whatever data you want to look at, but
it's a catastrophe. And then
we wonder why. My mom used to say, and my mom was a great cook
and she had the books you're talking about. I've got even,
I don't know, 61 edition of Escofier's book.
(07:21):
So she always said wine, food is chemistry.
And so if you look at as pragmatic as food is chemistry, which I think
people would agree that when you, you know, certain things go well together, certain
things work and how you. In fermentation of bread. My daughter's a
trained boulanger. That, that, that is chemistry. Are you
saying that throw all, throw that idea at the. Out
(07:43):
the window because really, food pairing. And I'm not gonna say it's, I'm not
saying it's a hoax because I, I
don't know, I don't, I don't subscribe to it. And I think the Internet's right
in the sense that we intimidate people into thinking that you need to understand that
in order to enjoy a glass of wine and enjoy a meal. And I don't
agree with that. And that sometimes it is just hocus pocus and the
(08:04):
chemistry doesn't really matter. So, so let's go back. Let's take it one step
at your. At a time because
it becomes very complex. An awful lot of
people kind of hear about what I do or take a.
A sound bite or whatever, hate my guts and I'm. I'm the
devil. We were talking about
(08:27):
over intellectualization, right? Yes. So
what happened here's over an old. Over
intellectualization. And,
and it is chemistry. We're chemistry. That's
a very good point. This pen is chemistry. Yes.
So what happens is we, we glom onto
(08:52):
metaphors and heuristics, all right, which
are neurological ways to deal
with. The. Complexity of
the universe and kind of break it down into simple terms.
So I'm going to get to. Yes, wine and food is chem
(09:12):
chemistry, but not in the heuristic or
metaphorical sense that we think.
Just like when people think, oh, it grows together, it goes together.
I was going to say that. What the, what the hell?
Yeah, and, and so if,
(09:34):
if, if we take. Well,
and, and this is a problem with, with, with talking with
me. I'm, I want to talk really quickly about the
difference of horizontal segmentation
versus vertical segmentation. Let's do it.
It's, it's really important in, in explaining all this. It,
(09:56):
it. And, and I finally got
data to clarify all this in my crazy mind.
Vertical segmentation is where you
take a product in the
product attributes and that experts agree
(10:16):
this is what the product should be like. This is
what those who are in the know
know what the product should be. And then there's all sorts of
arguments within that. How do you evaluate it? How do you rate it?
What's terrible? All that, all that, all that BS is happening
in a, in a vertical conversation.
(10:41):
And, and what it requires is then, okay,
oh, you want to learn about wine? This is what you got to learn about.
Including all these unreserved, unresolved arguments. All
this bs, all you've got to learn about it to
appreciate it. I evaluate
(11:01):
it this way. No, you're stupid. I use points. No, you're
stupid. I use descriptive metaphors. I'm better than
you are. And it's, it's all happening in this vacuum
of a vertical integration. And, and if you don't get
it, you're too stupid to use the product.
Okay, that's very well said. Despite the. Yay.
(11:24):
Thank God. It's the first time in my life I've been able to actually
have somebody say that about. Honest
to God, I swear to God, I got it. Maybe.
So, so, and
to top all of this off, and this is something going on
(11:45):
at a really, really high level with my
mentors and researchers and scientists
around the world.
Wine relies on
sensory science to understand the phenomenon, right?
Sensory panels and sensory scientists and
(12:07):
so forth. Well, in the vertical model,
sensory science is the back ass words way
to look at things. It's hugely important
and it's complex and there's all these wonderful, wonderful sensory
scientists, but it's the
scientific process within this vertical
(12:30):
vacuum, if you will. So
I've been struggling literally for decades
how to explain all of this and
whatever. And
during COVID I
ran into research and data that I'm always
(12:53):
looking at more
from a focus of what's called perceptual science.
And the difference being sensory science is the product
up. All right, we're going to
analyze the product, we're going to talk about the
(13:14):
sensations and so forth. And again,
extremely important. But it's really the perception
that's the important thing. Sensory
scientists know that they can put together
this panel of experts and consumers and chefs and
(13:34):
whatever, and say, I want. Want you to evaluate the
acidity of this wine, okay. And rate
it on a heuristic scale. Some people
in all of these groups are going, oh, that's very pleasant. I like that.
Some others are saying, oh, it's way too sour.
(13:56):
Some are going in their head and saying, oh, I see how the racing
acidity pairs with the food and washes your
palate, whatever. And you get a shit show. At the end of
the day, you have no usable data. Racing
acidity. And then you give
them something sweet. Oh, this is yucky.
(14:19):
Overly sweet for beginners and,
and other people. Consumers are going, oh, I like this.
And, and. And whatever. So sensory science
in, in certain
evaluations and, you know, when
in use at a, At a winery for doing your
(14:41):
blends and whatever, absolutely incredible
work done. But it's the bot. It's in
the vacuum, the
horizontal model. And, and this is a guy,
Henry Moritz. What's. What's his
(15:02):
name? Howard. Howard
Mos. Actually Moskowitz,
uh, in. Invented something called mind
genomics. And he's the one that created this
whole thing of horizontal versus whatever. And he did it with
rep. The first application was Ragu spaghetti
(15:24):
sauce. And he said, rather than
us sitting around in our vacuum defining what
consumers should like and having to tell them they should like it because
it's authentic and it's Mama's recipe and, and
all this stuff, why don't we look at consumers from
the top down and ask them and learn
(15:47):
about them and what their
preferences, their expectations and so forth, and
we can make innumerable
market segments and then have
products differentiated for the market.
(16:08):
Well, I think. Do you think that applies then? I mean, do you think
a bottle of pasta sauce that Mama made. Hang
on, I. I think I'll state it here for the first
time. I think this will completely
change forever how wine is looked at and marketed,
that it will allow us to look at
(16:30):
millennials. Not like they all want one thing.
There are millennials who want authenticity
in this. There are millennials who want
gamification, and in technology, there
are millennials who want
natural or organic or sustainable.
(16:53):
We just don't know how to differentiate it.
So let me stop for a second. I had. Maybe it
was Felicity Carter. I can't remember who I was speaking with, but she said, Somebody
said. And we've tried to talk to the whiners about this and try to
talk to the industry about this. And I hate it when I hear, you know,
Gen Z are saying the industry needs to change because they don't. They have been
(17:14):
in the industry long enough to know what needs to change. But the idea
that, that the traditional,
let's just say the Bordel, the Burgundians, the, the
Kean folks just ignore this stuff,
Is that accurate? It doesn't matter
(17:35):
to me. I don't care. This
is another thing I was telling my wife.
I wish I had come across this, this clarity
in what I'm trying to accomplish before I was at the
age of physical decomposition,
(17:57):
but I honestly don't care. And here's the other thing.
Here's the other thing, Paul. This is so important for
the people who have a formula, who have their wines
sold out on allocation, who don't have to discount it, who
don't they've got their distribution. They.
There's nothing to change. Yeah, that's true. So,
(18:21):
so there will always be
that vertical thinking.
And I honestly don't give a rat's
ass if anyone or anyone
changes anything. They do. If the
(18:41):
wine industry really wants to
survive and prosper
and thrive and be healthy, the model has to change
and it has to change quickly. And so this.
I'm, I'm. Are you familiar with the
Monell Chemical Census center in Philadelphia? No.
(19:04):
It's the largest
and most prestigious organization in the world
focused on the science of chemosensory
perception, which
is validating your mom.
Chemosensory is how molecules
(19:28):
are. Act as
stimuli. The, the pathways, the neural
way that they create the
neurotransmitters that go throughout our brain to get
processed, turned into meaning and so on and so
forth and then into perception.
(19:52):
I've been working with them for 35 years and the work they
do is just mind blowing. So
that's interesting. Let me ask this. Why now? Why do you think?
Based on what I just said about, you know, the traditionalists not wanting to change
because we've been doing this for six. But why not? What's the confluence in the
industry, a confluence in the consumers that has
(20:15):
told you it's if we don't change, we're toast.
Well, and thank you. That's actually a perfect,
perfect question. So here's the confluence.
I think it's fair to say that there's
never been a more incredible
diversity of product, of wine, of
(20:39):
styles, of flavors, of price points.
How about that? And, and diversity of where it's
successfully grown
and, you know, from New Jersey to, to
China. To, you know, places no one
(21:00):
ever associated with wine. Right,
Good point. I've been trying to
some somehow distill my
crazy thinking into something understandable and
actionable. I've
done work in China for almost 35 years
(21:25):
and I watched the explosion of growth. And I
was, I've been to wine regions where
I, I've been where
ice wine is made and you can look across
the Yalu river to the northern border of
North Korea and the value that. That brought
(21:48):
to. In prosperity to an area that was
absolutely devastated by, by change and
whatever. All of a sudden it's fire, it's got wine tourism,
it's got a product in pride. And
this is happening all around the world. But
I also know through a lot of
(22:11):
research that I tap into and go
into the Chinese population is
not genetically predisposed to drink
red wine. There
are bitter sensitivities and so on and so forth.
(22:32):
So there was before President Xi, the president
declared, we're going to become a nation of red wine
drinkers. Red is heart healthy. Red is metaphorically important.
And due to a number of things that
happened in confluence with this.
(22:52):
And the reason they were doing this was to divert
grain and, and, and, you know,
rice and, and barley and other things back into the food chain from
beer production. Because they were a nation of beer drinkers primarily
and that. And they're, you know, maotai and things like that.
So they, that was the strategy.
(23:15):
Well, sorry. That was the mission in the strategy. Let's become red
wine drinkers. Well, they don't like red wine. It
doesn't matter if it goes with their food or not, because that's stupid.
You get this huge thing with, with so many
diverse foods. How do you do wine and food pairing? Which is, by the way,
how French cuisine used to be. But it's another story.
(23:37):
How did they put. I guess that's why they put, you know, there was whole
stories early on. They were putting Coca Cola in there, right? No, they weren't. Where
the Coca Cola's being put in the wine, it saved
the Basque wine industry. It's called Calamocho. They've
got a statue to the guy who popularized the most
popular drink, especially with young people in the
(23:58):
Basque regions of France and Spain, is 50 red
wine and 50 Coca Cola. I've never heard that. And I have.
Well, look, yeah, K A L I
M O T X A calumoto.
Oh, the Chinese did not do that because all that was all they
may. Or may not have. They did it with, with, with cognac.
(24:21):
Because you know, cognac had. China saved
the cognac industry and, and they
were willing to spend for it, but it tasted like crap. So they, and
literally you go into a banquet even in the
US to a really, really traditional in LA
or, or, or San Francisco and
(24:44):
look how they set up for a true prestigious
Chinese banquet. And you will see
usually 2 liter bottles of Sprite
7 up in Coca Cola and that's there
expressly to be blended with cognac. Well,
(25:04):
but here the fresh used to do that. We
don't have any clue what the French used to do. That's true.
This is know we make these faces and whatever in our
vertical vacuum and we don't know the history
and we don't know that, that the, the most popular
drink in Spain was sangria.
(25:27):
Yeah. Not freaking Tao. It
wasn't tempranillo, it was sangria. I, I can see this.
Sorry to interrupt you. I can see this in your vertical description
of you know, the industry. And so that, yeah, you
keep banging against the walls of this vertical cylinder.
Oh my God. I can get that. So you were
(25:49):
talking about neurodivergence. Not sure where that plays into
this. Yeah, horizontal part of it.
Somebody sent me a video of
a, of this hysterical
standup routine and,
and I'm going to frame this with all of a sudden
(26:13):
it's like there's a coming out party
for neurodivergent people
and it's just my, it, it just. I want to be invited to the party.
Well, you're, you'll be seeing more and more of us and hearing more
promos. So somebody sent me a video
(26:35):
and it's an autistic
lesbian
stand up comedian. Really.
And she's talking. When I was in Australia,
I think when I was in second grade,
(26:55):
our teacher said, children, we're going to learn about
prepositions. And the
proposition shows a
relationship of two things to each
other. Like Johnny is near the box.
What's the preposition? And she holds up her hand,
(27:16):
she goes, I have questions. Why is Johnny
near the box? And
it keeps going on. I've got questions.
What's in the box? Neurodivergence. I like it. The teacher's trying to explain
it to her and get more frustrated. The kids are laughing their ass off.
(27:36):
And, and then she said, I finally noticed everyone
was laughing. She said, I like that.
I have to, I don't see that because my daughter's a, you know, master's in
child
counseling. That would be really for her. So,
so, so here you go. First time on tape.
(27:59):
I am America's first
openly neurodivergent,
ADHD dyslexic, recovering
alcoholic, Master of wine.
My brain doesn't work the same way, and that's actually
how I pass a Master of Wine examination.
(28:21):
That's because I can look at things from so many different
perspectives. The hard part was getting it all
into any kind of cohesive essay,
you know, for the examination. So this applies
to the wine trade. I mean, I can see how your perspectives,
and that's why I put you back on the show, because I wanted to hear
(28:42):
them. But I can see in this industry an alternative
or neurodivergent viewpoint of what's going
on to make the changes you're talking about need to be changed.
Yeah. And. And so the research I'm
doing from Perceptual Sciences
is to understand you, your mom,
(29:04):
everybody has created their
perception, literally, of the universe based
on individual genetics,
which determine. This is one of the big reasons the
sensory scientists have such a hard time.
You may have certain taste buds I don't have.
(29:28):
I was just on a BBC BBC World
Global thing with
one of the. With the chief scientists from
a Manell Chemical census Center, and. And she was actually
doing the. The genetic portion identical
to what I do because they'd been my mentors for 35 years. And she
(29:51):
says, you know, somebody, you know, smells a wine and says, oh, I get raspberry
this. And she says, and it's a result of this molecule. That's what they
do at motel. And she says, and I don't have that receptor.
You can talk till you're blue in the face about your raspberries,
your this or that or. And you can argue about your point systems and
whatever, but genetically, that is our
(30:14):
grounding for everything we experience. Light, sound,
everything else. That information has to go through neural
pathways that can be conditioned over time.
So neurotransmitters are what make us feel happy or
sad or give us energy or
depression and pain and
(30:37):
all this kind of stuff. And then the brain has to
process all of that. And the brain
is subject to something called neuroplasticity, which is
learning, and it's repair of the brain from damage and
all this kind of stuff. So literally, when you learn something,
a new language or whatever, you've re. You've physically
(31:00):
rewired your brain, and then there's psychology.
And so your mom said, all right, Paul,
we're going to have spaghetti tonight. But you can't have any
because you did this. And now you associate
spaghetti with being punished with your mom while
somebody else is not doing that. But that's
(31:23):
you. So my new book, the
perception project that we. This is. This is now the whole
formula for how it's being written. And so from a
perceptual standpoint, we're. We're able to look at a person and say,
oh, you know, I. Are you smelling this?
(31:44):
No, it's interesting. You. You know, I don't even get that. And we know
this is out there. We science. Every day you have those conversations.
I always wondered if it was because they smelled it
and didn't know how to describe it or they just didn't smell it. And it
sounds. Well, we don't know how to. We. This. Descriptions
are made up. Yeah. Descriptions are a
(32:06):
fantasy and we've just got to get that. And there's. There's an
incredible neurological study done in the University of
Bordeaux about languaging. I won't even get into that. But
here's what it looks like. Paul. Now if. If we're open
enough to do that, Here's a glass of wine. Do you like that? No, it's
too sweet. Okay, great. Let me. Let's try. Try
(32:27):
this. Not. Well, not. Not.
Let me. Let me finish. Sort of. And. And. Well. Oh,
I. I smell this in the raspberries. Oh, great.
I don't. But like. Or minerality. I. I
don't care what. What. I want to find you the wine you're going to love.
(32:49):
Well, what food should I have? What food do you love?
Well, aren't I supposed to prepare wine and food? I said,
you know, that's all made up. If, if you'd like, I can give you.
Oh, I could give you classical pairings that aren't really. Or I can give you
the. Goes together, grows together. Or I can introduce
you to flavor modulation. And that is
(33:12):
that. This goes back to your mom. The chemistry that
certain things in combination, depending on
your genetics and your. In your
brain plasticity will modulate,
meaning go either go up or go down. The easiest
example of this. Brush teeth drink orange juice. Yeah, that's
(33:35):
one of the old school ones. So that's. And that's actually
defined by a perceptual
phenomenon called flavor modulation. And it's easy
to explain. Oh, is. Is this state going to be
good with my red wine? Well, how much. What do
you like the balance of the wine? It's. It's a little strong
(33:58):
for me, a little bitter. Oh, so don't have this steak because it's got a
sweet teriyaki glaze or some
cockamamie shit. And that's going to be like, brush your teeth, drink orange juice.
This steak has a maitre d' hotel
butter, which has lemon juice in it. And by the way, in
Tuscany, they'd always serve lemons with their bisteca all
(34:21):
Fiorentina. It's not the steak. The steak actually is
opposite of what the experts tell you it really is.
It's the salt you put on it and a little squeeze of lemon, and
that'll have a modulation. It'll make the wine smoother.
You know, I don't like red wine. You love Moscato. I love
Moscato. Historically, if you
(34:44):
had steak in Italy and somebody wanted Moscato, nobody would bat an eye.
It's delicious. You know, you had
two things in there that I'm going to dumb down a little bit just for
the listeners to the scent of. You know how it applies, like, Daily
One is, you know, my wife, you know, she's come a long
way in the wine consumption since we got married. She used to drink Gallo
(35:06):
Chablis, but. But I know what she drinks, and I don't
bother trying to get her to drink anything else. So she won't drink Syrah. She's
able to. She's able to grab Syrah out of the. Out of the air. She
knows when she puts her nose to the glass, she's not going to like it.
It's always Sarah. I can never stump her. I don't care if I give her
a roan or Central Valley, it doesn't matter. She catches
me. And so I got tired of trying. It's. I know what she likes to
(35:28):
drink, and I stay in that range. The other thing that you said that I
think is really important for people to hear because you hear this all
the time. And I've had many people say on the show, we need to change
the language of wine. What do you mean, change the language of wine? If you
tell me today that as you were saying, and your. Your
philosophy is right on your theory in that if I
(35:49):
don't smell those raspberries, there's a couple reasons why. One is I don't have the
ability to smell them because my receptors don't do it, or I just don't understand
what you're telling me to try and smell. So
if you change that to Captain Crunch or Fruit Loops,
which is what some of these gen zers and millennials want to do, like you
need to change, we make it more, more accessible. Well, I don't know what you
(36:10):
mean if you tell me it smells like. Fruit Loops, Let me jump in because
I think we're probably going to run out of time before this. Yes.
We don't need to change the language of wine
because there is no
standardized language of wine Again.
So trying to think there's a standardized language
(36:33):
is going right back into that vertical vacuum.
You're right. You're. We're right back in it. And to say,
you know, my wife's come a long way because she used to drink
that, that's actually a
pretty unfortunate judgment of the people who still drink it.
(36:54):
Seriously. Good point. I suppose we don't.
The long and short of it, we don't even think before we
speak. Or, or, or look, and that's
interesting point. The neurodivergent mind
is not focus. The reason I
ADHD happens my. In neuroscience
(37:16):
can show my brain's firing off all over the place.
And so I look at things
that, that, that, that
other people don't look at going together. And this is not
necessarily a benefit. This has been a curse for my entire
life. And for the first time, I'm
(37:39):
beginning to understand why. In grade school,
I was in the corner. I was the class clown,
and I was a. My report cards went
to. Went from little Timmy needs to settle down a little
bit to this son of a bitch is going to be incarcerated if you don't
figure out what the hell to do with them. Seriously.
(38:01):
And there's millions like me. And so when
this comedienne starts, starts
going and she discovered she. These are legitimate
questions she had. And it ended up with
this whole different. Trying to explain prepositions
a different way. And everybody's laughing.
(38:24):
She's enjoying the laughter. And
she goes. And I found everybody laughing. And I like
that. Oh, no, let's,
let's spend the last few minutes on this, this, this coming out of the
neurodivergence thing. Like when you say that there's a. I don't
say renaissance of it, but an understanding of it. Is that what you mean? Well,
(38:47):
there's an understanding and that's been growing for, for decades.
My son, who's an electrical engineer, you know, at a major,
major company, his, his
first year of school was absolute hell. He didn't want to go to school.
You couldn't make him. He's absolutely brilliant.
(39:07):
And we, we were very, very,
very diligent about his ADHD
diagnosis, what kind of ADHD and medication.
And that wasn't available to me ever. All
right, so even more
(39:28):
so, the, the coming out of Neurodivergence is just the ability to say, hey,
I'm a dyslexic ADHD nut case
and I'm of, of a lot of value in some cases.
Well, that's, that's interesting to be discovering wine.
And here's the craziest of it all, Paul. I'm writing my
(39:49):
book in this fashion of 35 years
of 65 years, 60 years of
passion and understanding of gastronomy and wine and
wine culture, becoming a master of wine and so on and so forth.
I have discovered. And my new book is being written to take
(40:11):
all my concepts and really
carefully use AI because
AI, if artificial intelligence with the right
inputs is, is just amazing. Everything has
to be fact checked. And then I post it on Facebook
to see if I've actually gotten it in a way
(40:34):
that people go, oh, I get that like you just did. That is a
result of me taking these random thoughts, putting them
into AI, putting, then carefully
editing that to, to make sure it's what I want, putting
it AI. Oh, I've got to change this because people are getting stuck
there or they don't understand this. And
(40:56):
that was. Right. That was never available to anyone before. And
it's a new phenomenon. So when do you expect the
releases book. By the
end of the year. And things are, things are just going
quickly because what I'm doing now is I'm writing, I do.
I just rewrote the introduction. It's the introduction of the books
(41:18):
available on LinkedIn and. Oh, cool.
And I've got it edited and I've got feedback, I've clarified it
because people say well. And then all of a sudden
somebody mentioned Howard Moskowitz
again. I went oh geez, I forgot about Howard. And then
I reframed the whole goddamn thing and it's now in my manuscript.
(41:42):
We're going to leave it at that today we're going to do this again. I'm
in big trouble if I don't get back to my 7 year old, my 5
year old granddaughter's birthday party. Please do. Yeah. Yes,
my back was against the wall. But I do want to have you send me
the link to that comedian if you can find it. I will. You know what?
(42:02):
Yeah, let me do. I'm doing that for actually because
I just met a neurodivergent chief
marketing officer and head of product development
for what's the Japanese
scotch company? What's that?
Suntory. And she just did a whole post about her
(42:25):
neurodivergence. And so I contacted
her, I said, but I said I had
AI
post this about why we should meet.
And it's a tim hat. I does this, this and this. And you
(42:46):
guys should get together because of this. And I said that you got
back to me in an hour. We're speaking next week. That's so fun. They
own Chateau La Gaffier, I think, also. Oh, you know, I think they're out
of the wine business now. Oh, they sell it, maybe. Yeah. Them
and how in the. And that's what's happening around the world. People are
bailing online. It's just. Yeah. So, anyways, well, thank
(43:08):
Thanksgiving. Really great. Great talking with you. Thanks for putting up
with my insanity. No, we're going to do it again. We have to stay in
touch because I just, it's, it's a fascinating part of the
perception of the trade and I think we need to, we need to discuss it,
continue it. Oh, it's. I, I, I'll tell. I, I
honestly think in my waning years of life, my life
(43:29):
work. In my wife's life. Yeah. Again.
Yeah. I think, I think I might have it.
Cheers. Thank you. All the best, buddy.
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