October 16, 2025 • 52 mins
I keep hearing how the industry has to change, how Gen Z is aren't drinking wine, how the trade is slow to do anything....until you speak with Abby Bogle.
She is the type of enthusiasm and drive that is needed to move with the times. You have all heard me say that "time will tell" and that "all generations come around to the proper glass of wine."
What Abby is doing is making the proper glass of wine more accessible.
Be careful, she is a bit infectious.
Abby Bogle is not your average disruptor—she’s bottling up tradition, cracking open innovation, and pouring new life into the wine industry one mini-bottle at a time. You’ll discover how Abby moved from the heart of Texas wine country to leading a revolution in single-serve wine formats that could change how generations experience wine. This conversation uncorks why classic 750ml bottles are struggling to captivate younger drinkers and what it will take for wine to rival the convenience of seltzers and cocktails. Abby reveals the secrets behind fractionalization—how her company, Small Lot Bottles, transforms wines into TSA-friendly miniatures for education, gifting, and direct-to-consumer sales. You’ll learn why canned wines fizzled, why PET plastic just doesn’t cut it, and how glass keeps wine’s integrity intact. The discussion dives into the technical challenges of bottling, shelf life, and the sophisticated use of Coravin’s argon technology to preserve taste and tradition. Paul and Abby muse on the frustrations of shipping wine, navigating legal hurdles, and why Gen Z consumers might grab a can of hard seltzer before ever considering a can of wine. As the conversation flows, you’ll gain a behind-the-scenes look at how wineries are adapting, how industry innovators like Paul Mabray are influencing change, and why experience matters more than size. You’ll come away understanding how the wine world is responding to declining sales, changing demographics, and the demand for something different—plus, you’ll hear about Texas’ own pioneering vineyards and what it means for the future. If you’re wondering where wine is headed, pull up a glass—this episode will give you more than just a taste of tomorrow’s wine culture.
-
Small Lot Bottles
Abby Bogle is owner and CEO of Small Lot Bottles. Their website is:
https://smalllotbottles.com -
Napa Valley Wine Academy
https://napavalleywineacademy.com -
Coravin
https://coravin.com -
Wine Foundry
https://www.winefoundry.com -
Oakville Grocery (Oakville Grocer)
https://oakvillegrocery.com -
Culinary Institute of America
https://www.ciachef.edu -
Quarter Masters of America's
Wine education partner:
https://www.mastersommeliers.org -
Knox & Dobson
https://knoxanddobson.com
#wineindustry #fractionalization #smallformatbottles #wineinnovation #GenZwine #winetrends #winepackaging #wineexperience #directtoconsumer #wineeducation #NapaValleyWineAcademy #winesampling #Coravin #miniwinebottles #Texaswine #ONDseason #winesustainability #winewastesolutions #alternativewineformats #winerymarketing #winegifting #podcastinterview
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
There's so much wine sitting out there right now and we've got to do something
different than the traditional 750ml bottle. That's
clearly not working. Wine cells are down. So we have to
elevate, we have to provide an experience and we have to set the wine industry
has to set itself apart. Sit back and grab
a glass. It's Wine Talks with Paul K.
(00:23):
Hey, welcome to Wine Talks with Paul Key. And I am in studio today in
beautiful Southern California about to have a conversation with Abby Bogle out there in Lubbock,
Texas. Introduct. Just a second. Hey, have a listen or watch.
Zaya Muradian. Such an interesting conversation
about the Armenian wine trade. And she is in charge of the vine
and Wine foundation, which is a government run agency to help
(00:45):
promote wines in a region that most people have not heard of,
have listened to that. But now while we're here, here to have a conversation with
Abby. She is owner and CEO of Small Lot
Bottles. Welcome to the show. Hello. Thank you for having me.
Paul, what's going on at Lubbock today?
Well, you know, I was actually joking about this this morning. It's
(01:07):
October and it's supposed to be fall, but we're at 90 degrees so
it's nice and toasty. But at least we're, we're
looking forward to some cooler temperatures and getting ready to kick off fall
and go into this OND time. As you all know who listen to this, I'm
sure it's pretty busy for everyone, but we're
rocking and rolling right now and starting off the, the month strong over here.
(01:30):
You know, I, I think I mentioned this when we're off camera a little bit
that I had done some business with McFerson Winery
and you mentioned that they're still in business out there and they were,
I bought Ron varietals from them and they still is that sort of the main
varietal area for that part of the wine trade in, in
Texas. And so they are big influences
(01:52):
with the French Rome varietals and then of course some Italian and Spanish
varietals as well. So anything that grows well with that
warmer, I mean we might as well not warmer, hot
and dry climate is what it is. So
we, but, but Kim McPherson has been such a pioneer, especially
leading the French, Rhone and Spanish and Italian varietals
(02:13):
in Texas. And so like I was telling you, Paul, you know, that was my
first job in the industry. So I am very fortunate to be
able to learn from such a pioneer. In this space
as we were trying to find a way in which
I got tagged by the state of Texas. And for the listeners understanding
the three tier process in America, shipping, alcohol and wine particularly,
(02:37):
I was trying to find a way with Jim to produce
a methodology to get wines in the hands of the consumers of Texas. I just
did it anyway. We never reached an agreement, not because he didn't feel like it,
just, it was too much work. So we just started shipping
and I got tagged by the state. They made me sign a contract saying I
would never do it again, but continued to do it
(02:59):
and, and then we finally paid our taxes on it and everything was
fine. But we, we actually had an auditor come from the state of
Texas sit right behind me here and,
and figure out how much sales tax I owe them. Yeah,
they, they come in and do those audits quite a bit. Was that pre Covid
or post Covid? Oh wait, wait, pre Covet? Yeah.
(03:21):
So look, I mean Covid didn't do, you know, that
wasn't a good time for any of us. But I have noticed most of those
TABC audits are more so through email now. They don't
actually come into your facility. I was shocked that she
showed up with a book and a computer and we gave her a room and
I don't know, we, we had, we had done it right. She just, they just
(03:41):
were checking on us. They did it twice actually. Anyway, now why we're here, we
had this conversation. But you, you know, your, your name
came to me through Paul McBray, one of the great digital sort of think
tank people in this industry about what, where the wine trade should go and
wine be a very specific and deliberate type product that
we need people like that. And he, he suggested we have a conversation because of
(04:03):
some of the things you're doing that are unique in the small
lot bottle world. Tell me what small lot bottles
does. Yes, so small lot bottles, we are a
fractionalization company, so that might be a fancy term
for some of you watching, but really what it is is we are taking
wine from 750ml bottles or from bulk and then we're putting
(04:25):
it into a mini bottle. So, so just like this, you might be able
to see that. So here is one of our bottles. And so these are
100ml bottles, but we do work with
primarily 100ml is what we are fractionalizing the wine into.
And so our biggest mission here is to get more liquid
on lips and, and to be able to provide a service to our
(04:47):
wineries to our corporate gifting. So that way we can get wine out to the
masses. And really, you know, we want these newer generations to start
drinking wine again. And having the fractionalization
option is a great entry to, to that
so they don't have to commit to a full bottle. They get more of an
experience. We can package these in single serve
(05:09):
formats or in a four pack, single, six pack, so on and so
forth. And of course on the education side as well, which
we, I'm sure we'll dive into a little bit more. But that is really where,
where our main focus is, is just trying to get more wine and more
liquid on lips. You know that's interesting
thought. Let me just for the listeners, sort of divide this out for them.
(05:31):
700100 milliliters bottle. 100 milliliters
says most American around the ounce. And the UK system
would be if you were to take a 750 milliliter bottle of wine,
a standard bottle of wine and you were at a restaurant, you'd probably
pour five glasses from that, something in that range and that would be
150ml or 150ml worth of wine for each
(05:53):
glass. You're talking about a little smaller than
that. So maybe you know what would be a six bottle pour
or six, six pores per bottle kind
of thing. And there was a company that started. Years ago,
Tasting Room online. Yeah, well that's really old, but
there's. Vinove, there's Tubes USA Wine and
(06:16):
Tubes. There is,
there's a, there's a few out there, but all kind of a little bit different.
The reason I brought that up was I thought a Tasting Room was an old
company for, owned by Gearlings and Wade. I think at time, at some point
I thought when the idea came out that this was kind of whack, you know,
and I'm an old guy, I'm old traditionalist that this is 750 milliliters. Why
(06:40):
would you want anything else? But the company that I'm referring to, I can't remember
the name still, you know, survived it all.
And the idea was you got three different test
tube size samples and you could get online and buy more if you
wanted. Is that the continued model of most of these companies that offer you
a chance to taste a wine at 100ml and then buy more.
(07:02):
Yeah. So I think that's definitely one angle of it that is
not so much our angle of it, but that is one. And so we,
we do offer that for certain winery clients for corporate gifting.
Clients, of course, depending on what.
It all depends on what their objective objective is and their call to
action. And then that, and then we formulate whatever that package looks like.
(07:24):
But I think one of the biggest things is what we know is
the brand awareness. It's using excess inventory.
We can't guarantee that people, especially this new generation,
I think when we're talking the younger millennials, the new Gen Z's, we
can't guarantee that they're going to get this and then go buy another bottle of
wine. We, we would hope that. And we're doing some
(07:47):
data tracking to see what those type of conversion rates are.
But we do know that it is brand awareness. It's getting
an experience out to our customers or their
customers and also gaining attraction for new
potential customers within that as well. And so, and then like we talked
about, there's so much wine sitting out there right now, and we've got to do
(08:09):
something different than the traditional 750ml bottle.
That's clearly not working. Wine cells are down. So we have
to elevate, we have to provide an experience and we have to set. The wine
industry has to set itself apart in this. You know, when we're
talking about Alpev in general, single serve formats have been
in the market forever. When it comes to little shooter sizes, you
(08:32):
know, you can buy, you know, beer is essentially, you know, that's, that's a different
conversation. But, but that's where we have to kind of differentiate ourselves.
And that's where we come in to really provide that service. So the
winery doesn't have to do it, but we are here to lend a hand and
say, hey, let's think differently about this. Let's look at some different
formats and different packaging. And what could this look, look like?
(08:54):
And what, and what's your biggest objective?
So you're, you're still kind of on the wholesale side, or
does it sound like you're selling some of these brands as well? Are you
strictly. For instance, you mentioned early on that you would pour out
750mls and put them back into 150 or 100
and you, or you could take in a Tetra Tech bladder of wines and do
(09:18):
it that way. But are you then sort of a job shop for them
or you actually have them on your website selling the wines as well, or
both? Well, a little bit of both. But so really where we
are selling things on our website is for one of our education clients. So we
do all of the education for Napa Valley Wine Academy, their
anchor client. As well of Quarter Masters of
(09:39):
America's as well as Culinary Institute of America. So all
of their wine education we handle. So certain courses
from there are sold online. But then there we essentially have a service
contract. They tell us which wines they want, we go out and source those. So
we're a full winery. We're a full winery, full tax paid wine bottling
house. We have all of our licenses for direct to consumer shipping.
(10:02):
But on the winery side, it is a little bit different where we're more of
a service. You know, they provide us the wine and then they're just asking us
to bottle it down, package it and then get it back to them or ship
it to their final customer as well. Just kind of depending on how,
how that partnership looks like it might vary from client
to client and depending where that winery is located.
(10:25):
And so how did you stumble across? I mean, I see the need.
Certainly there's a need out there. Again, I was old guy, so I'm like,
well, who would do this? But obviously it's working. What.
How did this happen? I mean, just for fun. Yeah. So
a little bit of background. Yeah, a little bit of background. So
Taste of Confidence was the original company name. It still is
(10:48):
Taste of Confidence, but we, we've added DBA small lot bottles. And so
Taste of Confidence was started by two brothers in Australia.
And then I came on to launch the United States side of the
business. And that was all right after Covid. I mean, my
goodness, I wish we were six months earlier. It would have been a game changer.
But it was right after Covid, right after things were kind of back
(11:10):
online in 2021. And that's where we started with Napa Valley Wine
Academy as our anchor client. And we still hold true to that. We work with
them on a daily basis and we're so fortunate for that partnership. But
we, over the last several years, we just saw a
few different things within the industry. And where I was going back and forth to
Napa and seeing what was needed. The original owners had a
(11:33):
different kind of direction that they wanted to go with more of a tech side.
So, you know, of course, like Paul Mabry, like all the, all the tech
things. And I was like, look, I think we just really need to offer
a solution. We need it seamless, we need it efficient, and we need it
simple. And we need a very low risk for these wineries.
And so I really wanted to align ourselves with just bottling,
(11:55):
production and fulfillment. And they wanted to do more tech side. So
they're kind of focused on There and then that's when I rebranded
to small lot bottles. And we have now really
aligned and partnered with some great people with
Coravin. We're the North American hub for Corvin Venitas and for their
bottle, which is this one that I just showed, and then also
(12:18):
their equipment and then as well as wine and wine and tubes and so we
offer a few different formats, which has really helped set us apart
because now we can give the client exactly what they would like. Very interesting thought
process that you've been through. And I think what, you know, Mr.
Mabray, you know, brought you into the fold here because,
you know, there's a whole conversation about innovation and the wine trade.
(12:42):
You know, I, I consider innovation on many, many fronts as
anybody else would. There's technical innovation, there's, there's packaging innovation,
there's, there's manufacturing innovation, there's
experiential innovation. So this is an interesting thought process
because, you know, I noticed that the canned section, so I'm trying to focus
now on the sort of serving size. And a few years ago
(13:04):
during the summer, I tasted a hundred canned wines.
And they, they were bottled, they were canned in four or
five different sizes. There was 200, 250, 375, 500,
and even I don't think there are any 750s. But you know, those,
a few of those are standard looking cans for people that like 375 is a
beer can and the 500 is like a large beer can. But
(13:29):
I don't see that, you know, I, we did okay with it, but. And I
tasted a lot of really good wines in them. I, I tasted vintage, appellated
wines that I thought were pretty good Loi Cabernet and one called Freak show and
whatever. And, but I see the section of
those wines at the markets continually dropping in size.
(13:49):
What's happening? And I, I think it's the can. I think
honestly it's, it's the can concept. And I'm not sure,
I know there's, there's been innovation with that between the
aluminum liners and different things, not degrading the wine and stuff. So I know
they've made great advancements, but I think there's a, you know,
wine is, wine is a traditional elevated
(14:11):
beverage. And so it, it was just like we had to innovate. Going
from pet to glass. We have to, you know,
wine, we want other people to drink wine and we want them to
have fun and to be able to experience it, which is what we get to
do with these many bottles because it takes the stress
out of it. You're not buying $150 bottle of wine that you may or
(14:33):
may not like. But what I think on the can side is it doesn't
represent the wine well. It doesn't represent the industry well or the tradition
associated with the wine industry and the,
you know, hundreds and hundreds of years of
winemaking. It does. I don't believe it supports that. Well, it doesn't support
that initiative. And if. If we're talking to that younger generation,
(14:55):
they're going to go pick up a can of White Claw or a can of
High Noon before they ever go grab a can of wine.
Yeah, I would make. That makes sense.
And that's. That's the end of the day. We've got to find. We got
to get this. These new generations to drink wine because we're run. You know, we're
running out of baby boomers. We're running out like we're going to, you know, the
(15:17):
people who have kept the wine industry alive are, you know,
not drinking as much or passing on and, you know, different things. So we've got
it. We've got to think differently there. Well, as a baby boomer, I think
of my mortality regularly. So I
know, well, keep drinking wine and I'm sure you'll be
fine. Yes. Actually, what happened was when I sold the Wine of the Month
(15:40):
club, the gentleman that bought it, the group that wanted nothing to do
with the stuff I'd collected. And a lot of I collected during COVID because people
were buying whatever I asked them to buy. And so I have this incredible collection
somewhere floating around 25 to 3,000 bottles
that I had no place to put. So I finally built the seller
at home. But they're all three. They're all 750s, I can tell you that much.
(16:02):
You know, it's interesting. Let me just sort of play devil's advocate here for a
second. I've had many, many guests on the show.
One woman insisted that Lafitte Rasheed would be in a can one day.
Of course, that would never happen. I've had another woman on the show
of a brand that was bottling can.
Bottling things in 375s. Like, that was something
(16:24):
new. I mean, we. There's 375 has been around since I worked my dad's store
in 1972. And I. I didn't find that innovative and.
And being pitched as premium wine. And it wasn't
premium. I mean, it really wasn't premium. But then the devil's
advocate part is, you know, whiny baby, which is this Gen Z
idea that just got bought by Gallo.
(16:46):
It's all, it's all, it's all in 750s. Does that mean the Gen
Z's are drinking 750s? I. Well,
do you know what type of varietal it is or are there multiple? Because I,
I think that has a big role to play it in. The studies that I've
seen is, you know, rose and sparkling still all time highs. And
so I think, you know, you see, let's go to brunch with my
(17:07):
girlfriends, let's get bubbles, let's get rose, let's have a girl's night
rose all day, all of those things. So I would be interested to know
just on that whiny baby side what those varietals are. Because
is it, is it a deep, heavy cab? Because if it is,
let's find, you know, we need to continue to do that research to see where
that is. But I Do you know that off. The top of your head, just
(17:29):
a number? I don't know exactly. I know there's a few. I don't remember if
there's a deep red. I think there might be a, you know, a deeper
red. I think it's a crown cap. I have to look
that up. But it's kind of funny because I was driving home. Go ahead. I
think the crown cap and just that convenience piece is, it's such a huge
piece. Especially in today's time. Everyone wants something
(17:51):
convenient. They're not carrying around corkscrews. They're not, you know, doing
different things. But I mean, I guess with the crown cap you would still need,
you know, it's not, it's still, it's not. Screw cap. Yeah. So you're still
going to need. I got my screw cap, I got my corer right here on
my keychain. Look at that. See, you're. There you go. That's.
That's my kind. See, I always have the cork screw with the knife on
(18:14):
it. And so it gets taken every time I'm at the airport because I forget
to clean out my purse. But. But yeah, you know, that
is an interesting point that you bring up there with that, with that brand.
Well, I thought, I was thinking about today driving home. I had just, I had
got an email for somebody that was really, really made me angry. And I thought
to myself, what a whiny baby. And then I realized that the company that
(18:34):
sent me the email is a bunch of gen zers. And I thought,
hey, that's where the Name came from whining. Whining about stuff. And I was
like, give me a break. And I don't mean to dissolve gen zers.
I have, I raised three millennials. You know, that's not a problem. I get it.
I'm a baby boomer. I'm sure my parents had their opinions of my
personality traits as a, as a, as a group. So.
(18:57):
So you have then bottling lines there. You have
all you need. You can with the, you know, I, I spent a lot of
time in, in packaging shows. I, you know, I used to have packaging lines here
where I box boxes. So I have full understanding of how those machines work.
Do you have you the test tube size and you have
the 375 size. And so what's the largest format that you buy that you
(19:19):
bottle? We really, we don't really go over
187. And that's really just if a client really
specifies the 187. And that's of course, as we both know,
been around for it for ages now. So we really like to stay in
the 100ml, but do a four pack. So then you're getting, you know, just,
just over a half a bottle of wine, about 13, 14
(19:41):
ounces of wine right there. But it's more of that experience. And so whether
it's a gift, whether it's, you know, Christmas time or birthday or
girls night or whatever it is, you're still able to provide that experience. So
187 are great. You know, if, if we land, you know, different
contracts and different partnerships where that's just what they request, we can absolutely
do it. It's just not something that we put a lot of
(20:04):
focus in. So for the listeners,
187 is commonly called a split. And it's was
mostly used in the old days for the little bottles of champagne you might buy
at a grocery store or maybe on the airplane that you'd get
that. Which I think that single surf size is still great. Especially when
we're talking about these new generations and sparkling like you, you
(20:26):
bring up. You know, I think people love that. People love a quick,
easy glass that they can just grab, throw in their cooler bag,
whatever it is. And they don't, again, they don't have to commit to that, that
full amount. But what, what's nice about our 100ml is
it's giving you just that perfect taste. You're at 3.4
ounces, it's TSA friendly, so you
(20:48):
can pack it in your carry on. You don't have to check it which is.
Wow, what an interesting thought. Yeah, never thought of that.
Well, it works really well for gifting. So if you're, if you're out in Napa,
we just, we had kits launch at Oakville Grocer last month.
So if you're out in Napa on you know, husband wife trip or
girls trip and you're like hey, I need to take home some souvenirs. Boom, you
(21:10):
can grab that at Oakville Grocer. And then you're, all you're doing it is throwing
it in your suitcase and you're going through carry on or you know, in your
carry on through TSA and you're, you're totally fine. So it's the perfect
thing that you can take home to your mother in law who's watching the kids,
your dog sitter, whatever that may be. But that's what, that's why
we like that, that size and then specifically we like that
(21:32):
size so we can have more than just one varietal. We, we don't want to
just have one varietal in there. So you could bring on the
plane a little six pack or four pack of, of one
of one hundreds and that would qualify
as long as they're separated by the, you know, the container itself.
Yes, yes. So of course you, not of course
(21:55):
you cannot consume it. Well, I mean so they say you can't
consume it if you don't get caught. Who am I to say? But, but,
but it goes through. I'm like, I mean I'm not gonna make
judgments about the people listening to show where they're going to try and open, uncork
a bottle of wine or a thumb test tube. But I just
thought of something. I have very, very close friends here in Los Angeles who started
(22:16):
a RTD cocktail called the Knox and Dobson. Really quite
special. And I even had a, a taste test against my classic
Martini and my classic Manhattan and I barely squeeze by
the wind with my son in laws because they're so good
and you know, oh wow. And I was and one of
their marketplaces that they've, that they've stumbled across accidentally and I'm thinking about
(22:39):
this for some of these wineries is you know, in room
mini bars because you're not going to take out a 50ml
little airplane bottle. You're not going to, you know, that's just this is already mixed.
They're premium. And I thought, you know, I just, we were just in Napa at
the Yanville estate just last week and
there was a Bottle. What's that? Well,
(23:02):
exactly. And who's opening up a 750mil bottle? Nobody. I
always bring it home. Exactly. You bring it home or
it's wasted. And so that's where we are in talks
with a few different hotels where, hey, you know, would
this, would you like this? Because this, these are the brands we can put in
there. And so there are, there are some different conversations that we have there where
(23:24):
we, we bring the wine brand to actually new,
like a new customer base, essentially. So when, when a
wine brand comes to you, what's their typical, like,
let's turn around the old sales. You know, here's my problem. Do you have a
fix? What's their typical. What do they describe as their typical
need? Well, their typical need
(23:48):
is do you have a list of people who would drink our wine and
who will they want to sell wine? Which I, I get. And I mean, that's,
that's on one hand where it's always like, okay, well, who's going to buy my
wine? And do you have a list of people to introduce it to? And it's
like, no, we don't have the list, but we have the concept that will
help you target a new list. And, and so that's kind
(24:10):
of, you know, that's like a funny people always say, like, well, we want, you
know, they want a list of people to send their wine to. And it's like
that, that's what you're supposed to be growing at your tasting room. And
so for the most part, it's them coming to us to
just as a service, to bottle the wine and package it
so they can use it as retail kits, direct to consumer kits. Each
(24:31):
one's a little bit different. Internal tasting kits for new
vintages, new winery releases
or grand openings, getting the word out. So each one
is a little bit different. We haven't quite cracked the code on like,
okay, every winery is going to want this because each winery is
different based on size. Are they a boutique urban winery? Are they
(24:53):
commercial? Are they enterprise? What, what is. What is it? Because each
one's a little bit different there. So we see a wide range of
different use cases. When it comes to the winery side,
it's interesting. You know, there's a whole bunch of statistics out there, metrics.
And I'm from a marketing standpoint, I have my definite
opinions on marketing metrics. However,
(25:16):
there is that metric that says most wine that's bottled and sold in a
supermarket is consumed within two years or 48 hours
or whatever the number is. Certainly not meant to age. And,
and as I think in general knowledge in the wine world, small formats
don't age as long as larger formats. And so it's interesting
that, that the sizes around and
(25:38):
obviously the longevity of the wine is not going to be as long as even
a 750 or a Jeroboam or 3 liter. But,
but that's not meant to do that. No, it is not. And so
we have a shelf life of about 12 months, especially on our Corbin bottle.
It's about 12 months shelf life. And the, but what we, I mean, we
always want to encourage people like, don't hold this. This is gift it,
(26:01):
enjoy it. Or if you're, if the winery is
contracting it. And, you know, they, they. We bottle just in
time. And so we have a really quick turnaround time. They tell
us, hey, like, we have an event middle of November. Can we get you wine?
So we want it to be the freshest, best experience for their
customers. But exactly, it's. We're not holding this wine. We're
(26:23):
not aging this wine. We are drinking it. We're enjoying it. And then you're
gifting it on to your, your best friends, your family members, whatever
that may be, because our hope is that you had such a great experience
there. So then it's like, hey, let's keep doing this. And that's, that's really
where, you know, it's, it's kind of funny because especially on our education side,
there's a lot of like, okay, well, what's the shelf life? Conversations? And we have
(26:45):
to know that, and that's super important. But our biggest thing is we want,
we want students or customers to be able to consume these
quite quickly so that way they can enjoy it versus hold on to it.
So do, do winers really send you, like a palette, you know, for,
what's that, 560 bottles and say, pour this
(27:05):
into, you know, the vat. Now, let's just talk about that for a second. From
a technical standpoint, we always pitched to our customers all
these years. That wine is a pretty resilient product, actually. It
travels many times across the ocean, down, jostled around in
the boat. You know, at the bottom level. You know, temperature is important,
but vibration is just as important.
(27:28):
Light sources are important. So those things all play into the longevity
of a wine. Do. Is that bottle of
187 or 100ml a
good representation of that wine once it's been
bottled? Let's see, vented, bottled,
uncorked, poured, then rebottled. Yes.
(27:49):
So we have done quite corvin. Whenever they first
launched this glass and equipment they did quite the extensive beta
testing with brands of the caliber of like
Harlan. And we have now come in with
so many of our own beta testings doing side by sides with
several different brands. I mean we on average have about
(28:10):
400SKs in in house and inventory and
so all of that is side by side tested. We have
a very intense haccp and quality control process
to catch any things because there is a chance that the wine a bottle comes
in court. So we have to, we check everything at
time of arrival, we check everything before bottling and then we have
(28:32):
a true process all the way through the finish line. But we have done
so many side by sides in person with
clients and everything. And so it does represent the, the
wine exactly the way it should be. And that's one of what, what's important
to us mostly is keeping the integrity of the wine. We don't ever want to
put your name on a product that you don't have the
(28:55):
stamp of approval on. So we do a lot of testing and pilot projects
before we do, you know, full large production runs. I
didn't even think of that. That cork bottle. I mean there's actually
in a little bit of an incidence lately from it. But you know, I'm
trying to look at my emails here. That's why it looked, I look distracted but
I think the Coravin developer, the guy is
(29:17):
coming on the show, he's out in LA for something soon
and he's coming on to talk about it. You know we used to see that
all the time here obviously our tasting room every Tuesday.
Half, I would say half of the vendors would use a Coravan for the wines
to you know, obviously if you don't have to open a whole 750 to pour
off a couple ounces at an account. So
(29:41):
I'd say about half of them used it. But I'm interested to hear from this
gentleman when he shows up. So what is the Coravan brand there that you have?
What are they, what's, what's unique about it? So it's not, it's. The
Corbin Minitas is a machine. It's not like the need. I mean it's, it's a
similar technology to the needle but it's not the actual, you know,
little handheld Corbin what they're known for. So
(30:04):
what you can see here is there's, there's a sticker over here but
let me just kind of remove this for all intensive
purposes of this podcast So y' all can really see. So
the bottle is never uncapped. So if
this bottle goes into a machine and then it
fills through here. And so this bottle
(30:27):
is purged with argon, then filled and then topped with
argon. And so we, we use argon for everything. Not
nitrogen. And it's just a little bit softer on, on the wine. But so
we. Anyways, long story short, that's, that's how. That's a little
bit different. So that needle technology is poking through there. So the
only time the wine, the original 750ml bottle is exposed to
(30:49):
any oxygen is only at the time of
uncorking. And then that's all in an inertia protected environment
and you're immediately sticking in the hose and then it
starts pulling out. So that's, it's what really unique just
not having to let these wines sit or wait for a
cap or anything. So the second it is going in there, it's protected.
(31:12):
That's interesting. Let's, let's talk about that for a second. Argon. Just for the
listeners. The, the inert gases that they use at
wineries have been argon, they've been nitrogen. I've even sent blends
of that. There used to be a product that we sold here for a while
called Private Preserve. There's another one called Vineyard Fresh, where it's
where you, you use a little WD40 tube,
(31:34):
for lack of a better description and stick it in the bottle. And I use
it at home. Although, you
know, frankly having a. Not finishing off a bottle doesn't happen very often
around my house. But if it does,
it's good for a day or two, you know, I. Right. Without any
degradation. But it, yeah, you know, once you get over half a bottle
(31:56):
tends not to be that great. But this is a good solution.
Absolutely. You can really. And I'll, you know, being in the wine industry, I
get, I get real picky. My. We were actually on a date
night the other night and had a bottle or had a glass of wine and
my glass of wine tasted so much better than
(32:16):
my boyfriend's and we were laughing about that. I was like, well, I was like,
I have a brand new bottle. But you know, it was different because
depending on where that is in the bottle, like sometimes it's nice,
it's a little bit more open. It's really, it's great.
But you know, if you held that one more day, you're gonna have a problem.
Whereas like one, a brand new bottle, it's a little tight, you need to
(32:39):
let it open up. You need to aerate it a little bit. So it just
brings out different characteristics of the wine, and it
all determines on how long that bottle has been open and
then where in the bottle is, is it at? Because that
makes a huge difference. And we were actually talking about it like, man,
if restaurants even had, you know, some type of concept of.
(33:01):
Of this with maybe it's not 100 mil, maybe it's
187 or something. But, you know, it would just be interesting to see
what their. What their loss is like and waste and
some of those conversion numbers, because I'm sure there. There's quite a bit of it
because you just, you never know if somebody's gonna
be in and finish off that bottle in the next day or if you're gonna
(33:24):
just dump it down the drain. I can tell you from experience,
obviously, as you said, you're in the business, so you watch this. But my wife,
I usually have martinis or Manhattan, so when I'm out, unless it's something very
unique, but she, you know, we, we're very peculiar, very
conscious about what is in that glass when we order by the glass.
And we've sent many, many, many glasses back for a lot of different
(33:47):
reasons. And we even sent a bottle back the other day at
Chichio because it was bubbly.
And that's usually a heat problem, right? That's usually from heat.
And they tried to tell me, which was kind of annoying, that.
That this was the way the wine tasted. I go, look, roasted. A
monster chino does not have bubbles. I can pretty much commit to that. Promise you.
(34:09):
Yeah. But.
Their answers, I'm like, okay, okay, well, sure. So
then I gave my car on the way, I said, you know, I've been doing
this for 35 years. And I tasted a hundred thousand wines. And I can pretty
much commit to you that's not the case. But let me tell you another quick
story. We're in Monterey at the Concord Elegance. We were
having an incredible time watching the cars dread on the street. This is the night
(34:32):
before it starts. We're at a bar, and I'm right in front of the waiter
station, right next to it. And behind the bar, the bar
backside, there was all these Crane Lake wines, which
is a classic distributor. The Franzia Classic
Distributorship sold Crane Lake as a house poor for a lot of restaurants.
Anyway, somebody had decided their infinite wisdom to. To write giant
(34:54):
black felt pen letters on the label what date they open the wine.
And the Pinot Noir that was front and center had Been open maybe two weeks
earlier. Just. I just happened to notice this and a, a woman,
a waitress came up and said, glass of Pinot to the, to the
bartender. He didn't even look at it. So he started to pour this
right in front of me. And I said, I go, that's coming back. He goes,
(35:15):
what do you mean, sir? I go, well, look at the date. I go, even
Crane Lake can't last that long with all the sugar in it. And he goes,
thanks a lot. You know, thank you for stopping that. I mean, you appreciate it,
actually. And I thought, wow, what do. Interesting use this might be, even though on
a per. And that leads me to another question. But on a
per glass basis, it might be a little more money. But man, the,
(35:35):
the, the, the depletion or the loss would be
considerably less. Cons weigh considerably less.
And it is, it would be a little bit more. And I, and I guess
that's pretty much why restaurants, you know, one, their glass price is
the bottle price, so it doesn't matter if they sell one glass. They, they
covered their, their cost on it. So I understand that
(35:57):
concept, but I just also am like, but you're wasting. So, you know, like, let's
talk about the waste piece of it. Like, you're covering your cost, but then we're
just wasting, like. And I mean, that's a different conversation for a different
time. But I think there, there will be some breakthrough and some innovation
that comes in on the, on that. On the restaurant side. And I think we'll
see it with newer restaurants popping up and, and it just
(36:19):
depends on the demographic that they're tailoring to as well. Well, I,
that's partially true, I think, but forget the waste
part, which, yes, you're right for the listeners. Most restaurants get the
bottle cost out of their first glass, but that first glass that would have gone
out with this Pianoir would have upset somebody and they would have. The waiter had
more time and they had to go argue. And somebody might be intimidated to say
(36:40):
this is bad because they don't know, feel like they have the confidence to do
that. And so it has a whole bunch of ramifications that aren't just dollars and
cents. And what happened to the plastic bottle movement? Are you doing any
pet stuff? We started with pet, but
it's again, not a good representation of the wine. The shelf life is
not as long. It's three months. So it just, it doesn't protect the
(37:01):
wine. It doesn't protect the integrity of the wine. And that's what we hold true
and in our entire process is we have to keep that integrity of
the wine from start to finish. And so I just didn't feel like we were
putting out the best product we could. And I don't, I think
there's probably some innovation. There's things that can happen on the, on the
manufacturing side of that. But I really, now that we're
(37:24):
in glass, I don't, I don't see us ever going backwards there. There's certain
conversations that we have with certain larger
corporations that are just like, hey, we just needed a pet, which
I totally understand, but they just, they get complaints, complaints
24, 7. So it's, it's the cost, you
know, cost from pet to glass is significant, but
(37:47):
I think it's worth it. And we're seeing right now
that it, it definitely has been worth it making, making that switch because we
had a lot of PET heat issues as well. So given
a glass can get warm and they're going to fill it and be like, oh,
that's warm. But the effects on the
wine are not as what they would be with the PET
(38:09):
bottle. You know, there's a, there's a couple of positives and
some negatives. One of the positives is you can
put 36 PET 750s in
the same weight box as 12
glass bottles. So they're a pound each instead of three pounds each.
And you know, as a restaurateur, for instance, if I'm pouring it from behind
(38:32):
the curtain anyway, I'm not sure I care if I can save the space
on having pet. On the flip side of that, there's, there's
a few negatives. One of them, I had a bottle here that
sat here forever. It was probably one of the first PET bottles ever bought. I'm
talking, it's like an 87 Merlot from South Africa. Oh, wow. And
the, the, the lining started
(38:54):
to come off of the plastic. So this got this bizarre
sort of design going on and you're going, oh, that is so gross. That the
lining, the, you know, the grid lining was separating from the
plastic itself and it was turning in this weird thing. It started to suck in.
Oh yeah, you know, the vacuum pack. And then the other
negative that I thought and I had the guy on the show and you know,
(39:15):
he was just doing his job, but he was a PhD out of Cornell and
his job was to find a food grade lining
that was, would stand hold up to wine for 24 months.
And he just thinking that's kind of disgusting. But you know,
Coke is like that. You can't, you can't use the coke grade lining. But
just, just the fact that you're doing research and you're using molecular
(39:37):
biology to figure it out. I go, it's kind of gross.
Yeah, I'm right there with you. I, I don't know. It's, it's
there and there's pros and cons on the glass side for sure as you
know, breakage and cost and everything else. But I
just think the pros outweigh, outweigh the cons for the glass
compared to pet. Well that's
(40:00):
interesting. The thought too that which I just,
which just fleeted my brain.
Do you think this affects wineries? You know, direct to consumer stuff
which is I did all my career, you know
shipping wine is expensive. People would come in here with a high punted
bottle in the thick glass and it was tapered and they go isn't this cool?
(40:23):
I go no, that's five pounds And I got to pay for. And I only,
I get charged five pounds. I only get money from my, my customers for three
pounds. So I don't really like them. Right, so
is there a dtc? Well, we already mentioned a couple of
the, of the brands that do this but from a, from a winery
standpoint, is there a DTC component to this?
(40:46):
Oh absolutely. So definitely on the direct to
consumer side. So we see that a lot. We have winery clients that
put these on their website for stocking stuffers for advent
calendars, whatever it may be. We have a, we have a full custom advent calendar
for this year as well and then they're shipping it direct to consumers so they're
running marketing campaigns. We're also equipped to ship direct to
(41:07):
consumer but it just kind of depends on what, what size brand
we're dealing with. If we're going to go to one of their three PLs or
if we are going to ship it internally. But really
it's a huge play. The cost of shipping though.
Yes, they're getting like four different varietals but the cost of shipping
is actually not that significantly cheaper. Weight is a huge
(41:30):
thing so we're saving on weight but we still have the adult signature,
the fuel surcharge, the rural surcharge, all of these surcharges. So
we're still up there no matter what at north
of $20 to ship these ground. And so
it's just, you know, especially during the summer months with the heat and
everything, we're know we want to ship ups two day air and
(41:52):
for a six pack of wine going ups two day air, you're looking at
$30. So it's really, it's not much cheaper than shipping,
you know, a 750mil bottle. And that's just because,
you know, one of these days I'll. I would love to understand
UPS and their reasonings for everything, but we have to have them and
so we have to pay for it really is, is what it is that at
(42:15):
the end of the day. You don't need me. Tell me
about it. I. I found a. One of my dad's charge
cards from 1986 going through some stuff and
we were charging 275 for.
Wow. Now that's less than the. Just the adult signature alone for a two
pack. But here's one of the fallacies of ups which,
(42:38):
which now I don't have to worry about them. I mean they, they literally UPS
before we switched the FedEx and we switched the UPS after their strike in
2007 or whatever it was. I just made me so mad. But,
but because it was their way of the highway and it still is kind of
like that anyway with FedEx, however. Think
about this for a second. If, if you're receiving
(43:00):
and I know friends of mine that belong to three or four clubs.
I'm as a, as a wholesaler or a retailer would receive
samples all the time, daily I would receive boxes,
you know, and they're getting that dull signature, whatever it is now three
bucks or whatever it is for every package that
comes to my door that day. But there's only one delivery
(43:23):
and that just really used to annoy me.
Exactly. There's no rhyme or reason to it. So yeah, you and
yeah, it's. They're make. I don't know. They, they make so much
money and that's great for them, but I just, I feel like there is,
you know, some ways that it would be nice to be able to work together
on that because it doesn't make sense, especially for you. It should be like you
(43:45):
pay. I don't know, there should be some system where you pay X
amount a month or whatever. You upload your ID and then
you just know that if that name comes across
the database, like we're good, we don't need to charge it.
But who knows? I mean, I think there's a lot of different things that we
could do to make that a little bit easier. But we're probably not going to
(44:06):
move the needle very much to be quite honest. So we just have to work
around it. I can tell you in 1988.
So I'm really dating myself. Nobody cared. You know, FedEx
would come or UPS come the door. You had to handwrite the manifest.
You could throw a hundred boxes in the truck and put 50 on. The manifest
wasn't discussed. And it didn't really matter where it was going though. It was still
(44:28):
illegal. But I got to the point where I had the, the head
legal advisor for UPS on the phone with the head legal
divisor from Missouri because Missouri was a reciprocal state at the
time and got them to meet heads and allow shipping.
And so that had never been done before, the three of them on the phone.
But you could have access to those people at that time. Now it's like impossible
(44:49):
right now. Oh yeah, now you're gonna have. And now it's even worse because it's
not even just like customer service. Now you're going to go through a whole AI
set of people before you even get to speak to somebody. And
it's, it. I don't know, I'm, I'm way
more old school when it comes to, to that. I, I love some
efficiencies of technology and then there's others where I'm like, I just want to talk
(45:11):
to a person, please. And I don't know how many times I have to hit
0 for you to listen to me, but you know, it's,
it's crazy out there. Let's, let's, let's, we're at 45 minutes already,
if you can believe it. But let me me ask this question. I just came
back from lunch with an AI writer and they're
writing some software for the real estate business. But I study AI and I use
(45:32):
it all the time. And I just wanted to sit on this conversation to
understand how they were, how they were thinking because they're on the back
end training. Is there an
application in the manufacturing side of why. I'm not
talking about, you know, blends and I'm just talking about applying
AI on your side when it comes to innovative packaging.
(45:54):
Innovative ideas. Have you used it? Yeah, we,
we use it all the time. We use it for mock ups. We use it
for creative ideas of like, hey, this is what we're thinking. What are
taglines we could do? I would say we use it more so for packaging and
for, for those packaging mock ups of like, hey, this is what we're thinking.
Can you help us put this together? And it doesn't, it does a fantastic job.
(46:16):
We're not paying a designer for it. It's very easy to
put in there exactly what you need and then it's also really nice because
when you're handing that over to your designer, to the manufacturer, to
the print company, whoever that may be, it like, it's, it's perfect.
It's exactly how they see it. You're not then sitting there trying to iterate your
ideas from your head and then being like, no. So we
(46:38):
cut down on time so much because we are, we see it,
we can talk to the computer really quick, get it exactly where we want
it, and then pass that off versus going back and forth multiple
times trying to nail down a design. In
1993, I was given a test database for seller management.
I ended up keeping it. And that's where my hundred thousand wines
(47:01):
that I tasted. Well, there's about 60,000 in that database I tasted on site.
And I used to frustrate me that there was no. I didn't have an app
for it. It was written in DOS originally. And so the other day
I sat down with this product called Re Re. And it's a
app generation thing. Now this thing would have cost me 30 grand. In fact,
I think I had a quoted years ago to write this app. Took about
(47:25):
probably three, four hours worth of my time to train this thing as
to. When I go to a restaurant, I want to bring up on my phone
a field vintage. The ne. I fill in the vintage I want
varietal, and I fill in the varietal, I want region until I'm done
loading that wine into my database of tasted wines. And so I
can go to a regular tasting now and just pull my phone out instead of
(47:47):
making notes, I just go. And I wrote it. It wrote it
like in three hours. And I pay 20 bucks a month, you know,
for this. Exactly, exactly.
It's phenomenal. I
know, it's. It's really incredible. And I'm so grateful for it. I just.
I'm grateful for it when I want to use it, not whenever other people are
(48:10):
forcing me to use it, where I can't talk to people and, and
different things because it is. I think that's one of the biggest things. Like we
all want social interaction. And so it just, it's hard whenever we
see this economy in this world of where we're going and
society of like, you know, everything is technology and
there's amazing benefits to that, and I use them on a daily basis. But
(48:32):
there's, you know, there's just those cons there as well as. As there is with
anything. My wife says you're nicer to the AI person than you are
me. Oh. And you're at the
boyfriend stage. So maybe.
Exactly. And so just wrapping it up. What it's just you out
in the Napa side of things or do you have a team up there? What
(48:53):
do you have? So we do have. We are an AP in
Napa with the wine Foundry. And then I have an amazing board of directors
and board of advisors that have we have some feet on the ground. There's. And
then I'm back and forth and then we all of our headquarters are out of
Lubbock and I've got great team with our director of
sales and account managers, production
(49:15):
managers. So we've got that satellite office in Napa and then we just kind of
divide and conquer as we need depending on production.
Can I tell you my quick Texas story? Then we're going to say goodnight
and that is a woman you should listen to the podcast. Her name
is Stephanie Franklin. There are actually two Stephanie Franklins on my podcast
list but one of them is the descendant of
(49:37):
of a Shankel and he
founded Shankoville, Texas which seems to be about an hour and a half
the opposite direction of Paris somewhere south east of
Dallas. And it's a. It's the
Shankoville was considered the first free city
post Civil War for black.
(49:59):
And she's so drawn to this. She's a brilliant woman actually. She's won some awards.
But she went out to Shankoville because of it's her grandfather's stomping grounds
or grandfather and she's going to start a winery. And she has started a
winery. I don't think she's planted yet. But I've been. I was so intrigued by
the story that now that I get to go to Paris I'm going to make
the detour when it's time to go see what she does in an area
(50:21):
that's never considered for wine. It's probably really hot.
But she did the. She did the studies and she's planting things like tannat
and I think and Torigan ask now stuff like that
to produce winer where is it
Shankoville seems to be if you land in Dallas you would go
south and you'd go east a little. But okay.
(50:43):
Seems to be about three to four hours from Paris, Texas, the opposite direction
of Dallas. I'm just so intrigued by this idea and
you know the, the we were in Kerrville
for a wedding years ago before the, before the flooding obviously
well before and we stopped at a couple wineries Messinahoff
a couple other things on the way to Fredericksburg and they were growing
(51:06):
Things like Sagrantino and some really interesting
varietals for. For. I suppose, just. And they're growing some
region there now. Lots of tannat there now.
Yeah, they're growing. They're growing quite a bit over there. So where we are
in Lubbock is the High Plains AVA. So we support about
85% of the fruit for all of the hill country,
(51:29):
but they are starting to grow a little bit more every year.
More vines are coming online and just trying out different varietals
that'll work there with. With the heat, plus the humidity,
rain, seasons and. And all of the things. But
there, it's. There's some potential there, for sure. They're. They're proving it
so interesting. Will you say hi to Jim McPherson? If you tell him that, Paul
(51:51):
K. From Wine Talks or Wine of the Month Club, you should remember that we
talked about. I will definitely do that, and I. Hope we get a chance
to meet, shake hands one day and we'll do this again. Because I'm interested to
see what the next step for you guys is and how you evolve with this
product. It seems like a brilliant idea for whiners that are looking for
opportunities to, you know, to augment their product
(52:13):
line and to make it more accessible for a lot of people.
Absolutely. Yes. We will stay in touch. We've got a lot on the horizon.
Cheers. Cheers.
There's so much wine sitting out there right now and we've got to do something
different than the traditional 750ml bottle. That's
clearly not working. Wine cells are down. So we have to
elevate, we have to provide an experience and we have to set the wine industry
has to set itself apart. Sit back and grab
a glass. It's Wine Talks with Paul K.
(00:23):
Hey, welcome to Wine Talks with Paul Key. And I am in studio today in
beautiful Southern California about to have a conversation with Abby Bogle out there in Lubbock,
Texas. Introduct. Just a second. Hey, have a listen or watch.
Zaya Muradian. Such an interesting conversation
about the Armenian wine trade. And she is in charge of the vine
and Wine foundation, which is a government run agency to help
(00:45):
promote wines in a region that most people have not heard of,
have listened to that. But now while we're here, here to have a conversation with
Abby. She is owner and CEO of Small Lot
Bottles. Welcome to the show. Hello. Thank you for having me.
Paul, what's going on at Lubbock today?
Well, you know, I was actually joking about this this morning. It's
(01:07):
October and it's supposed to be fall, but we're at 90 degrees so
it's nice and toasty. But at least we're, we're
looking forward to some cooler temperatures and getting ready to kick off fall
and go into this OND time. As you all know who listen to this, I'm
sure it's pretty busy for everyone, but we're
rocking and rolling right now and starting off the, the month strong over here.
(01:30):
You know, I, I think I mentioned this when we're off camera a little bit
that I had done some business with McFerson Winery
and you mentioned that they're still in business out there and they were,
I bought Ron varietals from them and they still is that sort of the main
varietal area for that part of the wine trade in, in
Texas. And so they are big influences
(01:52):
with the French Rome varietals and then of course some Italian and Spanish
varietals as well. So anything that grows well with that
warmer, I mean we might as well not warmer, hot
and dry climate is what it is. So
we, but, but Kim McPherson has been such a pioneer, especially
leading the French, Rhone and Spanish and Italian varietals
(02:13):
in Texas. And so like I was telling you, Paul, you know, that was my
first job in the industry. So I am very fortunate to be
able to learn from such a pioneer. In this space
as we were trying to find a way in which
I got tagged by the state of Texas. And for the listeners understanding
the three tier process in America, shipping, alcohol and wine particularly,
(02:37):
I was trying to find a way with Jim to produce
a methodology to get wines in the hands of the consumers of Texas. I just
did it anyway. We never reached an agreement, not because he didn't feel like it,
just, it was too much work. So we just started shipping
and I got tagged by the state. They made me sign a contract saying I
would never do it again, but continued to do it
(02:59):
and, and then we finally paid our taxes on it and everything was
fine. But we, we actually had an auditor come from the state of
Texas sit right behind me here and,
and figure out how much sales tax I owe them. Yeah,
they, they come in and do those audits quite a bit. Was that pre Covid
or post Covid? Oh wait, wait, pre Covet? Yeah.
(03:21):
So look, I mean Covid didn't do, you know, that
wasn't a good time for any of us. But I have noticed most of those
TABC audits are more so through email now. They don't
actually come into your facility. I was shocked that she
showed up with a book and a computer and we gave her a room and
I don't know, we, we had, we had done it right. She just, they just
(03:41):
were checking on us. They did it twice actually. Anyway, now why we're here, we
had this conversation. But you, you know, your, your name
came to me through Paul McBray, one of the great digital sort of think
tank people in this industry about what, where the wine trade should go and
wine be a very specific and deliberate type product that
we need people like that. And he, he suggested we have a conversation because of
(04:03):
some of the things you're doing that are unique in the small
lot bottle world. Tell me what small lot bottles
does. Yes, so small lot bottles, we are a
fractionalization company, so that might be a fancy term
for some of you watching, but really what it is is we are taking
wine from 750ml bottles or from bulk and then we're putting
(04:25):
it into a mini bottle. So, so just like this, you might be able
to see that. So here is one of our bottles. And so these are
100ml bottles, but we do work with
primarily 100ml is what we are fractionalizing the wine into.
And so our biggest mission here is to get more liquid
on lips and, and to be able to provide a service to our
(04:47):
wineries to our corporate gifting. So that way we can get wine out to the
masses. And really, you know, we want these newer generations to start
drinking wine again. And having the fractionalization
option is a great entry to, to that
so they don't have to commit to a full bottle. They get more of an
experience. We can package these in single serve
(05:09):
formats or in a four pack, single, six pack, so on and so
forth. And of course on the education side as well, which
we, I'm sure we'll dive into a little bit more. But that is really where,
where our main focus is, is just trying to get more wine and more
liquid on lips. You know that's interesting
thought. Let me just for the listeners, sort of divide this out for them.
(05:31):
700100 milliliters bottle. 100 milliliters
says most American around the ounce. And the UK system
would be if you were to take a 750 milliliter bottle of wine,
a standard bottle of wine and you were at a restaurant, you'd probably
pour five glasses from that, something in that range and that would be
150ml or 150ml worth of wine for each
(05:53):
glass. You're talking about a little smaller than
that. So maybe you know what would be a six bottle pour
or six, six pores per bottle kind
of thing. And there was a company that started. Years ago,
Tasting Room online. Yeah, well that's really old, but
there's. Vinove, there's Tubes USA Wine and
(06:16):
Tubes. There is,
there's a, there's a few out there, but all kind of a little bit different.
The reason I brought that up was I thought a Tasting Room was an old
company for, owned by Gearlings and Wade. I think at time, at some point
I thought when the idea came out that this was kind of whack, you know,
and I'm an old guy, I'm old traditionalist that this is 750 milliliters. Why
(06:40):
would you want anything else? But the company that I'm referring to, I can't remember
the name still, you know, survived it all.
And the idea was you got three different test
tube size samples and you could get online and buy more if you
wanted. Is that the continued model of most of these companies that offer you
a chance to taste a wine at 100ml and then buy more.
(07:02):
Yeah. So I think that's definitely one angle of it that is
not so much our angle of it, but that is one. And so we,
we do offer that for certain winery clients for corporate gifting.
Clients, of course, depending on what.
It all depends on what their objective objective is and their call to
action. And then that, and then we formulate whatever that package looks like.
(07:24):
But I think one of the biggest things is what we know is
the brand awareness. It's using excess inventory.
We can't guarantee that people, especially this new generation,
I think when we're talking the younger millennials, the new Gen Z's, we
can't guarantee that they're going to get this and then go buy another bottle of
wine. We, we would hope that. And we're doing some
(07:47):
data tracking to see what those type of conversion rates are.
But we do know that it is brand awareness. It's getting
an experience out to our customers or their
customers and also gaining attraction for new
potential customers within that as well. And so, and then like we talked
about, there's so much wine sitting out there right now, and we've got to do
(08:09):
something different than the traditional 750ml bottle.
That's clearly not working. Wine cells are down. So we have
to elevate, we have to provide an experience and we have to set. The wine
industry has to set itself apart in this. You know, when we're
talking about Alpev in general, single serve formats have been
in the market forever. When it comes to little shooter sizes, you
(08:32):
know, you can buy, you know, beer is essentially, you know, that's, that's a different
conversation. But, but that's where we have to kind of differentiate ourselves.
And that's where we come in to really provide that service. So the
winery doesn't have to do it, but we are here to lend a hand and
say, hey, let's think differently about this. Let's look at some different
formats and different packaging. And what could this look, look like?
(08:54):
And what, and what's your biggest objective?
So you're, you're still kind of on the wholesale side, or
does it sound like you're selling some of these brands as well? Are you
strictly. For instance, you mentioned early on that you would pour out
750mls and put them back into 150 or 100
and you, or you could take in a Tetra Tech bladder of wines and do
(09:18):
it that way. But are you then sort of a job shop for them
or you actually have them on your website selling the wines as well, or
both? Well, a little bit of both. But so really where we
are selling things on our website is for one of our education clients. So we
do all of the education for Napa Valley Wine Academy, their
anchor client. As well of Quarter Masters of
(09:39):
America's as well as Culinary Institute of America. So all
of their wine education we handle. So certain courses
from there are sold online. But then there we essentially have a service
contract. They tell us which wines they want, we go out and source those. So
we're a full winery. We're a full winery, full tax paid wine bottling
house. We have all of our licenses for direct to consumer shipping.
(10:02):
But on the winery side, it is a little bit different where we're more of
a service. You know, they provide us the wine and then they're just asking us
to bottle it down, package it and then get it back to them or ship
it to their final customer as well. Just kind of depending on how,
how that partnership looks like it might vary from client
to client and depending where that winery is located.
(10:25):
And so how did you stumble across? I mean, I see the need.
Certainly there's a need out there. Again, I was old guy, so I'm like,
well, who would do this? But obviously it's working. What.
How did this happen? I mean, just for fun. Yeah. So
a little bit of background. Yeah, a little bit of background. So
Taste of Confidence was the original company name. It still is
(10:48):
Taste of Confidence, but we, we've added DBA small lot bottles. And so
Taste of Confidence was started by two brothers in Australia.
And then I came on to launch the United States side of the
business. And that was all right after Covid. I mean, my
goodness, I wish we were six months earlier. It would have been a game changer.
But it was right after Covid, right after things were kind of back
(11:10):
online in 2021. And that's where we started with Napa Valley Wine
Academy as our anchor client. And we still hold true to that. We work with
them on a daily basis and we're so fortunate for that partnership. But
we, over the last several years, we just saw a
few different things within the industry. And where I was going back and forth to
Napa and seeing what was needed. The original owners had a
(11:33):
different kind of direction that they wanted to go with more of a tech side.
So, you know, of course, like Paul Mabry, like all the, all the tech
things. And I was like, look, I think we just really need to offer
a solution. We need it seamless, we need it efficient, and we need it
simple. And we need a very low risk for these wineries.
And so I really wanted to align ourselves with just bottling,
(11:55):
production and fulfillment. And they wanted to do more tech side. So
they're kind of focused on There and then that's when I rebranded
to small lot bottles. And we have now really
aligned and partnered with some great people with
Coravin. We're the North American hub for Corvin Venitas and for their
bottle, which is this one that I just showed, and then also
(12:18):
their equipment and then as well as wine and wine and tubes and so we
offer a few different formats, which has really helped set us apart
because now we can give the client exactly what they would like. Very interesting thought
process that you've been through. And I think what, you know, Mr.
Mabray, you know, brought you into the fold here because,
you know, there's a whole conversation about innovation and the wine trade.
(12:42):
You know, I, I consider innovation on many, many fronts as
anybody else would. There's technical innovation, there's, there's packaging innovation,
there's, there's manufacturing innovation, there's
experiential innovation. So this is an interesting thought process
because, you know, I noticed that the canned section, so I'm trying to focus
now on the sort of serving size. And a few years ago
(13:04):
during the summer, I tasted a hundred canned wines.
And they, they were bottled, they were canned in four or
five different sizes. There was 200, 250, 375, 500,
and even I don't think there are any 750s. But you know, those,
a few of those are standard looking cans for people that like 375 is a
beer can and the 500 is like a large beer can. But
(13:29):
I don't see that, you know, I, we did okay with it, but. And I
tasted a lot of really good wines in them. I, I tasted vintage, appellated
wines that I thought were pretty good Loi Cabernet and one called Freak show and
whatever. And, but I see the section of
those wines at the markets continually dropping in size.
(13:49):
What's happening? And I, I think it's the can. I think
honestly it's, it's the can concept. And I'm not sure,
I know there's, there's been innovation with that between the
aluminum liners and different things, not degrading the wine and stuff. So I know
they've made great advancements, but I think there's a, you know,
wine is, wine is a traditional elevated
(14:11):
beverage. And so it, it was just like we had to innovate. Going
from pet to glass. We have to, you know,
wine, we want other people to drink wine and we want them to
have fun and to be able to experience it, which is what we get to
do with these many bottles because it takes the stress
out of it. You're not buying $150 bottle of wine that you may or
(14:33):
may not like. But what I think on the can side is it doesn't
represent the wine well. It doesn't represent the industry well or the tradition
associated with the wine industry and the,
you know, hundreds and hundreds of years of
winemaking. It does. I don't believe it supports that. Well, it doesn't support
that initiative. And if. If we're talking to that younger generation,
(14:55):
they're going to go pick up a can of White Claw or a can of
High Noon before they ever go grab a can of wine.
Yeah, I would make. That makes sense.
And that's. That's the end of the day. We've got to find. We got
to get this. These new generations to drink wine because we're run. You know, we're
running out of baby boomers. We're running out like we're going to, you know, the
(15:17):
people who have kept the wine industry alive are, you know,
not drinking as much or passing on and, you know, different things. So we've got
it. We've got to think differently there. Well, as a baby boomer, I think
of my mortality regularly. So I
know, well, keep drinking wine and I'm sure you'll be
fine. Yes. Actually, what happened was when I sold the Wine of the Month
(15:40):
club, the gentleman that bought it, the group that wanted nothing to do
with the stuff I'd collected. And a lot of I collected during COVID because people
were buying whatever I asked them to buy. And so I have this incredible collection
somewhere floating around 25 to 3,000 bottles
that I had no place to put. So I finally built the seller
at home. But they're all three. They're all 750s, I can tell you that much.
(16:02):
You know, it's interesting. Let me just sort of play devil's advocate here for a
second. I've had many, many guests on the show.
One woman insisted that Lafitte Rasheed would be in a can one day.
Of course, that would never happen. I've had another woman on the show
of a brand that was bottling can.
Bottling things in 375s. Like, that was something
(16:24):
new. I mean, we. There's 375 has been around since I worked my dad's store
in 1972. And I. I didn't find that innovative and.
And being pitched as premium wine. And it wasn't
premium. I mean, it really wasn't premium. But then the devil's
advocate part is, you know, whiny baby, which is this Gen Z
idea that just got bought by Gallo.
(16:46):
It's all, it's all, it's all in 750s. Does that mean the Gen
Z's are drinking 750s? I. Well,
do you know what type of varietal it is or are there multiple? Because I,
I think that has a big role to play it in. The studies that I've
seen is, you know, rose and sparkling still all time highs. And
so I think, you know, you see, let's go to brunch with my
(17:07):
girlfriends, let's get bubbles, let's get rose, let's have a girl's night
rose all day, all of those things. So I would be interested to know
just on that whiny baby side what those varietals are. Because
is it, is it a deep, heavy cab? Because if it is,
let's find, you know, we need to continue to do that research to see where
that is. But I Do you know that off. The top of your head, just
(17:29):
a number? I don't know exactly. I know there's a few. I don't remember if
there's a deep red. I think there might be a, you know, a deeper
red. I think it's a crown cap. I have to look
that up. But it's kind of funny because I was driving home. Go ahead. I
think the crown cap and just that convenience piece is, it's such a huge
piece. Especially in today's time. Everyone wants something
(17:51):
convenient. They're not carrying around corkscrews. They're not, you know, doing
different things. But I mean, I guess with the crown cap you would still need,
you know, it's not, it's still, it's not. Screw cap. Yeah. So you're still
going to need. I got my screw cap, I got my corer right here on
my keychain. Look at that. See, you're. There you go. That's.
That's my kind. See, I always have the cork screw with the knife on
(18:14):
it. And so it gets taken every time I'm at the airport because I forget
to clean out my purse. But. But yeah, you know, that
is an interesting point that you bring up there with that, with that brand.
Well, I thought, I was thinking about today driving home. I had just, I had
got an email for somebody that was really, really made me angry. And I thought
to myself, what a whiny baby. And then I realized that the company that
(18:34):
sent me the email is a bunch of gen zers. And I thought,
hey, that's where the Name came from whining. Whining about stuff. And I was
like, give me a break. And I don't mean to dissolve gen zers.
I have, I raised three millennials. You know, that's not a problem. I get it.
I'm a baby boomer. I'm sure my parents had their opinions of my
personality traits as a, as a, as a group. So.
(18:57):
So you have then bottling lines there. You have
all you need. You can with the, you know, I, I spent a lot of
time in, in packaging shows. I, you know, I used to have packaging lines here
where I box boxes. So I have full understanding of how those machines work.
Do you have you the test tube size and you have
the 375 size. And so what's the largest format that you buy that you
(19:19):
bottle? We really, we don't really go over
187. And that's really just if a client really
specifies the 187. And that's of course, as we both know,
been around for it for ages now. So we really like to stay in
the 100ml, but do a four pack. So then you're getting, you know, just,
just over a half a bottle of wine, about 13, 14
(19:41):
ounces of wine right there. But it's more of that experience. And so whether
it's a gift, whether it's, you know, Christmas time or birthday or
girls night or whatever it is, you're still able to provide that experience. So
187 are great. You know, if, if we land, you know, different
contracts and different partnerships where that's just what they request, we can absolutely
do it. It's just not something that we put a lot of
(20:04):
focus in. So for the listeners,
187 is commonly called a split. And it's was
mostly used in the old days for the little bottles of champagne you might buy
at a grocery store or maybe on the airplane that you'd get
that. Which I think that single surf size is still great. Especially when
we're talking about these new generations and sparkling like you, you
(20:26):
bring up. You know, I think people love that. People love a quick,
easy glass that they can just grab, throw in their cooler bag,
whatever it is. And they don't, again, they don't have to commit to that, that
full amount. But what, what's nice about our 100ml is
it's giving you just that perfect taste. You're at 3.4
ounces, it's TSA friendly, so you
(20:48):
can pack it in your carry on. You don't have to check it which is.
Wow, what an interesting thought. Yeah, never thought of that.
Well, it works really well for gifting. So if you're, if you're out in Napa,
we just, we had kits launch at Oakville Grocer last month.
So if you're out in Napa on you know, husband wife trip or
girls trip and you're like hey, I need to take home some souvenirs. Boom, you
(21:10):
can grab that at Oakville Grocer. And then you're, all you're doing it is throwing
it in your suitcase and you're going through carry on or you know, in your
carry on through TSA and you're, you're totally fine. So it's the perfect
thing that you can take home to your mother in law who's watching the kids,
your dog sitter, whatever that may be. But that's what, that's why
we like that, that size and then specifically we like that
(21:32):
size so we can have more than just one varietal. We, we don't want to
just have one varietal in there. So you could bring on the
plane a little six pack or four pack of, of one
of one hundreds and that would qualify
as long as they're separated by the, you know, the container itself.
Yes, yes. So of course you, not of course
(21:55):
you cannot consume it. Well, I mean so they say you can't
consume it if you don't get caught. Who am I to say? But, but,
but it goes through. I'm like, I mean I'm not gonna make
judgments about the people listening to show where they're going to try and open, uncork
a bottle of wine or a thumb test tube. But I just
thought of something. I have very, very close friends here in Los Angeles who started
(22:16):
a RTD cocktail called the Knox and Dobson. Really quite
special. And I even had a, a taste test against my classic
Martini and my classic Manhattan and I barely squeeze by
the wind with my son in laws because they're so good
and you know, oh wow. And I was and one of
their marketplaces that they've, that they've stumbled across accidentally and I'm thinking about
(22:39):
this for some of these wineries is you know, in room
mini bars because you're not going to take out a 50ml
little airplane bottle. You're not going to, you know, that's just this is already mixed.
They're premium. And I thought, you know, I just, we were just in Napa at
the Yanville estate just last week and
there was a Bottle. What's that? Well,
(23:02):
exactly. And who's opening up a 750mil bottle? Nobody. I
always bring it home. Exactly. You bring it home or
it's wasted. And so that's where we are in talks
with a few different hotels where, hey, you know, would
this, would you like this? Because this, these are the brands we can put in
there. And so there are, there are some different conversations that we have there where
(23:24):
we, we bring the wine brand to actually new,
like a new customer base, essentially. So when, when a
wine brand comes to you, what's their typical, like,
let's turn around the old sales. You know, here's my problem. Do you have a
fix? What's their typical. What do they describe as their typical
need? Well, their typical need
(23:48):
is do you have a list of people who would drink our wine and
who will they want to sell wine? Which I, I get. And I mean, that's,
that's on one hand where it's always like, okay, well, who's going to buy my
wine? And do you have a list of people to introduce it to? And it's
like, no, we don't have the list, but we have the concept that will
help you target a new list. And, and so that's kind
(24:10):
of, you know, that's like a funny people always say, like, well, we want, you
know, they want a list of people to send their wine to. And it's like
that, that's what you're supposed to be growing at your tasting room. And
so for the most part, it's them coming to us to
just as a service, to bottle the wine and package it
so they can use it as retail kits, direct to consumer kits. Each
(24:31):
one's a little bit different. Internal tasting kits for new
vintages, new winery releases
or grand openings, getting the word out. So each one
is a little bit different. We haven't quite cracked the code on like,
okay, every winery is going to want this because each winery is
different based on size. Are they a boutique urban winery? Are they
(24:53):
commercial? Are they enterprise? What, what is. What is it? Because each
one's a little bit different there. So we see a wide range of
different use cases. When it comes to the winery side,
it's interesting. You know, there's a whole bunch of statistics out there, metrics.
And I'm from a marketing standpoint, I have my definite
opinions on marketing metrics. However,
(25:16):
there is that metric that says most wine that's bottled and sold in a
supermarket is consumed within two years or 48 hours
or whatever the number is. Certainly not meant to age. And,
and as I think in general knowledge in the wine world, small formats
don't age as long as larger formats. And so it's interesting
that, that the sizes around and
(25:38):
obviously the longevity of the wine is not going to be as long as even
a 750 or a Jeroboam or 3 liter. But,
but that's not meant to do that. No, it is not. And so
we have a shelf life of about 12 months, especially on our Corbin bottle.
It's about 12 months shelf life. And the, but what we, I mean, we
always want to encourage people like, don't hold this. This is gift it,
(26:01):
enjoy it. Or if you're, if the winery is
contracting it. And, you know, they, they. We bottle just in
time. And so we have a really quick turnaround time. They tell
us, hey, like, we have an event middle of November. Can we get you wine?
So we want it to be the freshest, best experience for their
customers. But exactly, it's. We're not holding this wine. We're
(26:23):
not aging this wine. We are drinking it. We're enjoying it. And then you're
gifting it on to your, your best friends, your family members, whatever
that may be, because our hope is that you had such a great experience
there. So then it's like, hey, let's keep doing this. And that's, that's really
where, you know, it's, it's kind of funny because especially on our education side,
there's a lot of like, okay, well, what's the shelf life? Conversations? And we have
(26:45):
to know that, and that's super important. But our biggest thing is we want,
we want students or customers to be able to consume these
quite quickly so that way they can enjoy it versus hold on to it.
So do, do winers really send you, like a palette, you know, for,
what's that, 560 bottles and say, pour this
(27:05):
into, you know, the vat. Now, let's just talk about that for a second. From
a technical standpoint, we always pitched to our customers all
these years. That wine is a pretty resilient product, actually. It
travels many times across the ocean, down, jostled around in
the boat. You know, at the bottom level. You know, temperature is important,
but vibration is just as important.
(27:28):
Light sources are important. So those things all play into the longevity
of a wine. Do. Is that bottle of
187 or 100ml a
good representation of that wine once it's been
bottled? Let's see, vented, bottled,
uncorked, poured, then rebottled. Yes.
(27:49):
So we have done quite corvin. Whenever they first
launched this glass and equipment they did quite the extensive beta
testing with brands of the caliber of like
Harlan. And we have now come in with
so many of our own beta testings doing side by sides with
several different brands. I mean we on average have about
(28:10):
400SKs in in house and inventory and
so all of that is side by side tested. We have
a very intense haccp and quality control process
to catch any things because there is a chance that the wine a bottle comes
in court. So we have to, we check everything at
time of arrival, we check everything before bottling and then we have
(28:32):
a true process all the way through the finish line. But we have done
so many side by sides in person with
clients and everything. And so it does represent the, the
wine exactly the way it should be. And that's one of what, what's important
to us mostly is keeping the integrity of the wine. We don't ever want to
put your name on a product that you don't have the
(28:55):
stamp of approval on. So we do a lot of testing and pilot projects
before we do, you know, full large production runs. I
didn't even think of that. That cork bottle. I mean there's actually
in a little bit of an incidence lately from it. But you know, I'm
trying to look at my emails here. That's why it looked, I look distracted but
I think the Coravin developer, the guy is
(29:17):
coming on the show, he's out in LA for something soon
and he's coming on to talk about it. You know we used to see that
all the time here obviously our tasting room every Tuesday.
Half, I would say half of the vendors would use a Coravan for the wines
to you know, obviously if you don't have to open a whole 750 to pour
off a couple ounces at an account. So
(29:41):
I'd say about half of them used it. But I'm interested to hear from this
gentleman when he shows up. So what is the Coravan brand there that you have?
What are they, what's, what's unique about it? So it's not, it's. The
Corbin Minitas is a machine. It's not like the need. I mean it's, it's a
similar technology to the needle but it's not the actual, you know,
little handheld Corbin what they're known for. So
(30:04):
what you can see here is there's, there's a sticker over here but
let me just kind of remove this for all intensive
purposes of this podcast So y' all can really see. So
the bottle is never uncapped. So if
this bottle goes into a machine and then it
fills through here. And so this bottle
(30:27):
is purged with argon, then filled and then topped with
argon. And so we, we use argon for everything. Not
nitrogen. And it's just a little bit softer on, on the wine. But so
we. Anyways, long story short, that's, that's how. That's a little
bit different. So that needle technology is poking through there. So the
only time the wine, the original 750ml bottle is exposed to
(30:49):
any oxygen is only at the time of
uncorking. And then that's all in an inertia protected environment
and you're immediately sticking in the hose and then it
starts pulling out. So that's, it's what really unique just
not having to let these wines sit or wait for a
cap or anything. So the second it is going in there, it's protected.
(31:12):
That's interesting. Let's, let's talk about that for a second. Argon. Just for the
listeners. The, the inert gases that they use at
wineries have been argon, they've been nitrogen. I've even sent blends
of that. There used to be a product that we sold here for a while
called Private Preserve. There's another one called Vineyard Fresh, where it's
where you, you use a little WD40 tube,
(31:34):
for lack of a better description and stick it in the bottle. And I use
it at home. Although, you
know, frankly having a. Not finishing off a bottle doesn't happen very often
around my house. But if it does,
it's good for a day or two, you know, I. Right. Without any
degradation. But it, yeah, you know, once you get over half a bottle
(31:56):
tends not to be that great. But this is a good solution.
Absolutely. You can really. And I'll, you know, being in the wine industry, I
get, I get real picky. My. We were actually on a date
night the other night and had a bottle or had a glass of wine and
my glass of wine tasted so much better than
(32:16):
my boyfriend's and we were laughing about that. I was like, well, I was like,
I have a brand new bottle. But you know, it was different because
depending on where that is in the bottle, like sometimes it's nice,
it's a little bit more open. It's really, it's great.
But you know, if you held that one more day, you're gonna have a problem.
Whereas like one, a brand new bottle, it's a little tight, you need to
(32:39):
let it open up. You need to aerate it a little bit. So it just
brings out different characteristics of the wine, and it
all determines on how long that bottle has been open and
then where in the bottle is, is it at? Because that
makes a huge difference. And we were actually talking about it like, man,
if restaurants even had, you know, some type of concept of.
(33:01):
Of this with maybe it's not 100 mil, maybe it's
187 or something. But, you know, it would just be interesting to see
what their. What their loss is like and waste and
some of those conversion numbers, because I'm sure there. There's quite a bit of it
because you just, you never know if somebody's gonna
be in and finish off that bottle in the next day or if you're gonna
(33:24):
just dump it down the drain. I can tell you from experience,
obviously, as you said, you're in the business, so you watch this. But my wife,
I usually have martinis or Manhattan, so when I'm out, unless it's something very
unique, but she, you know, we, we're very peculiar, very
conscious about what is in that glass when we order by the glass.
And we've sent many, many, many glasses back for a lot of different
(33:47):
reasons. And we even sent a bottle back the other day at
Chichio because it was bubbly.
And that's usually a heat problem, right? That's usually from heat.
And they tried to tell me, which was kind of annoying, that.
That this was the way the wine tasted. I go, look, roasted. A
monster chino does not have bubbles. I can pretty much commit to that. Promise you.
(34:09):
Yeah. But.
Their answers, I'm like, okay, okay, well, sure. So
then I gave my car on the way, I said, you know, I've been doing
this for 35 years. And I tasted a hundred thousand wines. And I can pretty
much commit to you that's not the case. But let me tell you another quick
story. We're in Monterey at the Concord Elegance. We were
having an incredible time watching the cars dread on the street. This is the night
(34:32):
before it starts. We're at a bar, and I'm right in front of the waiter
station, right next to it. And behind the bar, the bar
backside, there was all these Crane Lake wines, which
is a classic distributor. The Franzia Classic
Distributorship sold Crane Lake as a house poor for a lot of restaurants.
Anyway, somebody had decided their infinite wisdom to. To write giant
(34:54):
black felt pen letters on the label what date they open the wine.
And the Pinot Noir that was front and center had Been open maybe two weeks
earlier. Just. I just happened to notice this and a, a woman,
a waitress came up and said, glass of Pinot to the, to the
bartender. He didn't even look at it. So he started to pour this
right in front of me. And I said, I go, that's coming back. He goes,
(35:15):
what do you mean, sir? I go, well, look at the date. I go, even
Crane Lake can't last that long with all the sugar in it. And he goes,
thanks a lot. You know, thank you for stopping that. I mean, you appreciate it,
actually. And I thought, wow, what do. Interesting use this might be, even though on
a per. And that leads me to another question. But on a
per glass basis, it might be a little more money. But man, the,
(35:35):
the, the, the depletion or the loss would be
considerably less. Cons weigh considerably less.
And it is, it would be a little bit more. And I, and I guess
that's pretty much why restaurants, you know, one, their glass price is
the bottle price, so it doesn't matter if they sell one glass. They, they
covered their, their cost on it. So I understand that
(35:57):
concept, but I just also am like, but you're wasting. So, you know, like, let's
talk about the waste piece of it. Like, you're covering your cost, but then we're
just wasting, like. And I mean, that's a different conversation for a different
time. But I think there, there will be some breakthrough and some innovation
that comes in on the, on that. On the restaurant side. And I think we'll
see it with newer restaurants popping up and, and it just
(36:19):
depends on the demographic that they're tailoring to as well. Well, I,
that's partially true, I think, but forget the waste
part, which, yes, you're right for the listeners. Most restaurants get the
bottle cost out of their first glass, but that first glass that would have gone
out with this Pianoir would have upset somebody and they would have. The waiter had
more time and they had to go argue. And somebody might be intimidated to say
(36:40):
this is bad because they don't know, feel like they have the confidence to do
that. And so it has a whole bunch of ramifications that aren't just dollars and
cents. And what happened to the plastic bottle movement? Are you doing any
pet stuff? We started with pet, but
it's again, not a good representation of the wine. The shelf life is
not as long. It's three months. So it just, it doesn't protect the
(37:01):
wine. It doesn't protect the integrity of the wine. And that's what we hold true
and in our entire process is we have to keep that integrity of
the wine from start to finish. And so I just didn't feel like we were
putting out the best product we could. And I don't, I think
there's probably some innovation. There's things that can happen on the, on the
manufacturing side of that. But I really, now that we're
(37:24):
in glass, I don't, I don't see us ever going backwards there. There's certain
conversations that we have with certain larger
corporations that are just like, hey, we just needed a pet, which
I totally understand, but they just, they get complaints, complaints
24, 7. So it's, it's the cost, you
know, cost from pet to glass is significant, but
(37:47):
I think it's worth it. And we're seeing right now
that it, it definitely has been worth it making, making that switch because we
had a lot of PET heat issues as well. So given
a glass can get warm and they're going to fill it and be like, oh,
that's warm. But the effects on the
wine are not as what they would be with the PET
(38:09):
bottle. You know, there's a, there's a couple of positives and
some negatives. One of the positives is you can
put 36 PET 750s in
the same weight box as 12
glass bottles. So they're a pound each instead of three pounds each.
And you know, as a restaurateur, for instance, if I'm pouring it from behind
(38:32):
the curtain anyway, I'm not sure I care if I can save the space
on having pet. On the flip side of that, there's, there's
a few negatives. One of them, I had a bottle here that
sat here forever. It was probably one of the first PET bottles ever bought. I'm
talking, it's like an 87 Merlot from South Africa. Oh, wow. And
the, the, the lining started
(38:54):
to come off of the plastic. So this got this bizarre
sort of design going on and you're going, oh, that is so gross. That the
lining, the, you know, the grid lining was separating from the
plastic itself and it was turning in this weird thing. It started to suck in.
Oh yeah, you know, the vacuum pack. And then the other
negative that I thought and I had the guy on the show and you know,
(39:15):
he was just doing his job, but he was a PhD out of Cornell and
his job was to find a food grade lining
that was, would stand hold up to wine for 24 months.
And he just thinking that's kind of disgusting. But you know,
Coke is like that. You can't, you can't use the coke grade lining. But
just, just the fact that you're doing research and you're using molecular
(39:37):
biology to figure it out. I go, it's kind of gross.
Yeah, I'm right there with you. I, I don't know. It's, it's
there and there's pros and cons on the glass side for sure as you
know, breakage and cost and everything else. But I
just think the pros outweigh, outweigh the cons for the glass
compared to pet. Well that's
(40:00):
interesting. The thought too that which I just,
which just fleeted my brain.
Do you think this affects wineries? You know, direct to consumer stuff
which is I did all my career, you know
shipping wine is expensive. People would come in here with a high punted
bottle in the thick glass and it was tapered and they go isn't this cool?
(40:23):
I go no, that's five pounds And I got to pay for. And I only,
I get charged five pounds. I only get money from my, my customers for three
pounds. So I don't really like them. Right, so
is there a dtc? Well, we already mentioned a couple of
the, of the brands that do this but from a, from a winery
standpoint, is there a DTC component to this?
(40:46):
Oh absolutely. So definitely on the direct to
consumer side. So we see that a lot. We have winery clients that
put these on their website for stocking stuffers for advent
calendars, whatever it may be. We have a, we have a full custom advent calendar
for this year as well and then they're shipping it direct to consumers so they're
running marketing campaigns. We're also equipped to ship direct to
(41:07):
consumer but it just kind of depends on what, what size brand
we're dealing with. If we're going to go to one of their three PLs or
if we are going to ship it internally. But really
it's a huge play. The cost of shipping though.
Yes, they're getting like four different varietals but the cost of shipping
is actually not that significantly cheaper. Weight is a huge
(41:30):
thing so we're saving on weight but we still have the adult signature,
the fuel surcharge, the rural surcharge, all of these surcharges. So
we're still up there no matter what at north
of $20 to ship these ground. And so
it's just, you know, especially during the summer months with the heat and
everything, we're know we want to ship ups two day air and
(41:52):
for a six pack of wine going ups two day air, you're looking at
$30. So it's really, it's not much cheaper than shipping,
you know, a 750mil bottle. And that's just because,
you know, one of these days I'll. I would love to understand
UPS and their reasonings for everything, but we have to have them and
so we have to pay for it really is, is what it is that at
(42:15):
the end of the day. You don't need me. Tell me
about it. I. I found a. One of my dad's charge
cards from 1986 going through some stuff and
we were charging 275 for.
Wow. Now that's less than the. Just the adult signature alone for a two
pack. But here's one of the fallacies of ups which,
(42:38):
which now I don't have to worry about them. I mean they, they literally UPS
before we switched the FedEx and we switched the UPS after their strike in
2007 or whatever it was. I just made me so mad. But,
but because it was their way of the highway and it still is kind of
like that anyway with FedEx, however. Think
about this for a second. If, if you're receiving
(43:00):
and I know friends of mine that belong to three or four clubs.
I'm as a, as a wholesaler or a retailer would receive
samples all the time, daily I would receive boxes,
you know, and they're getting that dull signature, whatever it is now three
bucks or whatever it is for every package that
comes to my door that day. But there's only one delivery
(43:23):
and that just really used to annoy me.
Exactly. There's no rhyme or reason to it. So yeah, you and
yeah, it's. They're make. I don't know. They, they make so much
money and that's great for them, but I just, I feel like there is,
you know, some ways that it would be nice to be able to work together
on that because it doesn't make sense, especially for you. It should be like you
(43:45):
pay. I don't know, there should be some system where you pay X
amount a month or whatever. You upload your ID and then
you just know that if that name comes across
the database, like we're good, we don't need to charge it.
But who knows? I mean, I think there's a lot of different things that we
could do to make that a little bit easier. But we're probably not going to
(44:06):
move the needle very much to be quite honest. So we just have to work
around it. I can tell you in 1988.
So I'm really dating myself. Nobody cared. You know, FedEx
would come or UPS come the door. You had to handwrite the manifest.
You could throw a hundred boxes in the truck and put 50 on. The manifest
wasn't discussed. And it didn't really matter where it was going though. It was still
(44:28):
illegal. But I got to the point where I had the, the head
legal advisor for UPS on the phone with the head legal
divisor from Missouri because Missouri was a reciprocal state at the
time and got them to meet heads and allow shipping.
And so that had never been done before, the three of them on the phone.
But you could have access to those people at that time. Now it's like impossible
(44:49):
right now. Oh yeah, now you're gonna have. And now it's even worse because it's
not even just like customer service. Now you're going to go through a whole AI
set of people before you even get to speak to somebody. And
it's, it. I don't know, I'm, I'm way
more old school when it comes to, to that. I, I love some
efficiencies of technology and then there's others where I'm like, I just want to talk
(45:11):
to a person, please. And I don't know how many times I have to hit
0 for you to listen to me, but you know, it's,
it's crazy out there. Let's, let's, let's, we're at 45 minutes already,
if you can believe it. But let me me ask this question. I just came
back from lunch with an AI writer and they're
writing some software for the real estate business. But I study AI and I use
(45:32):
it all the time. And I just wanted to sit on this conversation to
understand how they were, how they were thinking because they're on the back
end training. Is there an
application in the manufacturing side of why. I'm not
talking about, you know, blends and I'm just talking about applying
AI on your side when it comes to innovative packaging.
(45:54):
Innovative ideas. Have you used it? Yeah, we,
we use it all the time. We use it for mock ups. We use it
for creative ideas of like, hey, this is what we're thinking. What are
taglines we could do? I would say we use it more so for packaging and
for, for those packaging mock ups of like, hey, this is what we're thinking.
Can you help us put this together? And it doesn't, it does a fantastic job.
(46:16):
We're not paying a designer for it. It's very easy to
put in there exactly what you need and then it's also really nice because
when you're handing that over to your designer, to the manufacturer, to
the print company, whoever that may be, it like, it's, it's perfect.
It's exactly how they see it. You're not then sitting there trying to iterate your
ideas from your head and then being like, no. So we
(46:38):
cut down on time so much because we are, we see it,
we can talk to the computer really quick, get it exactly where we want
it, and then pass that off versus going back and forth multiple
times trying to nail down a design. In
1993, I was given a test database for seller management.
I ended up keeping it. And that's where my hundred thousand wines
(47:01):
that I tasted. Well, there's about 60,000 in that database I tasted on site.
And I used to frustrate me that there was no. I didn't have an app
for it. It was written in DOS originally. And so the other day
I sat down with this product called Re Re. And it's a
app generation thing. Now this thing would have cost me 30 grand. In fact,
I think I had a quoted years ago to write this app. Took about
(47:25):
probably three, four hours worth of my time to train this thing as
to. When I go to a restaurant, I want to bring up on my phone
a field vintage. The ne. I fill in the vintage I want
varietal, and I fill in the varietal, I want region until I'm done
loading that wine into my database of tasted wines. And so I
can go to a regular tasting now and just pull my phone out instead of
(47:47):
making notes, I just go. And I wrote it. It wrote it
like in three hours. And I pay 20 bucks a month, you know,
for this. Exactly, exactly.
It's phenomenal. I
know, it's. It's really incredible. And I'm so grateful for it. I just.
I'm grateful for it when I want to use it, not whenever other people are
(48:10):
forcing me to use it, where I can't talk to people and, and
different things because it is. I think that's one of the biggest things. Like we
all want social interaction. And so it just, it's hard whenever we
see this economy in this world of where we're going and
society of like, you know, everything is technology and
there's amazing benefits to that, and I use them on a daily basis. But
(48:32):
there's, you know, there's just those cons there as well as. As there is with
anything. My wife says you're nicer to the AI person than you are
me. Oh. And you're at the
boyfriend stage. So maybe.
Exactly. And so just wrapping it up. What it's just you out
in the Napa side of things or do you have a team up there? What
(48:53):
do you have? So we do have. We are an AP in
Napa with the wine Foundry. And then I have an amazing board of directors
and board of advisors that have we have some feet on the ground. There's. And
then I'm back and forth and then we all of our headquarters are out of
Lubbock and I've got great team with our director of
sales and account managers, production
(49:15):
managers. So we've got that satellite office in Napa and then we just kind of
divide and conquer as we need depending on production.
Can I tell you my quick Texas story? Then we're going to say goodnight
and that is a woman you should listen to the podcast. Her name
is Stephanie Franklin. There are actually two Stephanie Franklins on my podcast
list but one of them is the descendant of
(49:37):
of a Shankel and he
founded Shankoville, Texas which seems to be about an hour and a half
the opposite direction of Paris somewhere south east of
Dallas. And it's a. It's the
Shankoville was considered the first free city
post Civil War for black.
(49:59):
And she's so drawn to this. She's a brilliant woman actually. She's won some awards.
But she went out to Shankoville because of it's her grandfather's stomping grounds
or grandfather and she's going to start a winery. And she has started a
winery. I don't think she's planted yet. But I've been. I was so intrigued by
the story that now that I get to go to Paris I'm going to make
the detour when it's time to go see what she does in an area
(50:21):
that's never considered for wine. It's probably really hot.
But she did the. She did the studies and she's planting things like tannat
and I think and Torigan ask now stuff like that
to produce winer where is it
Shankoville seems to be if you land in Dallas you would go
south and you'd go east a little. But okay.
(50:43):
Seems to be about three to four hours from Paris, Texas, the opposite direction
of Dallas. I'm just so intrigued by this idea and
you know the, the we were in Kerrville
for a wedding years ago before the, before the flooding obviously
well before and we stopped at a couple wineries Messinahoff
a couple other things on the way to Fredericksburg and they were growing
(51:06):
Things like Sagrantino and some really interesting
varietals for. For. I suppose, just. And they're growing some
region there now. Lots of tannat there now.
Yeah, they're growing. They're growing quite a bit over there. So where we are
in Lubbock is the High Plains AVA. So we support about
85% of the fruit for all of the hill country,
(51:29):
but they are starting to grow a little bit more every year.
More vines are coming online and just trying out different varietals
that'll work there with. With the heat, plus the humidity,
rain, seasons and. And all of the things. But
there, it's. There's some potential there, for sure. They're. They're proving it
so interesting. Will you say hi to Jim McPherson? If you tell him that, Paul
(51:51):
K. From Wine Talks or Wine of the Month Club, you should remember that we
talked about. I will definitely do that, and I. Hope we get a chance
to meet, shake hands one day and we'll do this again. Because I'm interested to
see what the next step for you guys is and how you evolve with this
product. It seems like a brilliant idea for whiners that are looking for
opportunities to, you know, to augment their product
(52:13):
line and to make it more accessible for a lot of people.
Absolutely. Yes. We will stay in touch. We've got a lot on the horizon.
Cheers. Cheers.
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