November 26, 2024 • 22 mins
"Suspend an expectation that there's going to be a transaction. You don't know where it's going to go."
Networking does not have to feel icky. Unfortunately many people see networking the way Kathi Brewer-Gouthro once did. When she first had to dive into networking, she felt stuck in a “rigorously unproductive” mindset. Networking always seemed to focus on schmoozing, which felt unnecessary and uncomfortable.
When Kathi was faced with a career transition she knew it meant she had to also update her network. That prompted a needed change her approach. Over time she reframed her assumption that networking is just about who you know. It's about genuine connections and a mutual exchange of value.
It started to click for Kathi when she picked up a copy of "The 20-Minute Networking Meeting" by Nathan Perez and Marcia Belanger. Before reading that book, she had a handful of awkward, zero-value conversations. After embracing their structured approach, things changed dramatically.
Each networking “meeting” had a:
-
Strong first impression
-
Clear overview of my career
-
Genuine discussion points
-
Respectful, timely ending
-
Sincere follow-up within 24 hours
Since implementing this structure Kathi has had dozens of successful, enriching conversations. The conversations have not only broadened her horizons, they also made networking feel authentic and purposeful.
Networking does not need to make you cringe or feel uncomfortable. Instead of avoiding it, equip yourself with the right tools. Approach conversations with genuine curiosity and value-driven intentions. You may be surprised at how organic and rewarding those connections can become.
Looking for help with your own career transition? Reach out to our team at Best Culture Solutions.
Notable Moments
01:02 Networking is essential, not just passive engagement.
05:39 Networking requires active effort and learning.
09:22 Using a 20-minute networking structure for intentional connection.
11:45 Take the time to prepare, stick to schedule, follow up afterward.
14:20 Networking enhances comfort and success in career transitions.
17:58 Your network can provide opportunities and supports career development.
21:33 People value genuine connection and support.
Connect with Kathi
Connect with Tim and his team:
Website: https://bestculturesolutions.ca/
LinkedIn: Best Culture Solutions, Inc
Instagram: @best.culture.solutions
Email: tim@bestculturesolutions.ca
Kathi Brewer-Gouthro
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:07):
Welcome to the World at Work podcast where business leaders and job seekers
come together to create winning cultures and fulfilling careers. I'm your
host, Katie Courant, and I am here with Tim Dick, founder of Best
Culture Solutions. And we have somebody else with us
today, Tim. Pretty exciting. We do. Yeah. We have this
is you know, it's funny. This is probably the first time that we've ever
(00:29):
had somebody on the show that was a local guest which like
shame on me for not doing it before, but I'm excited that who we have
today is to be our first. But her name is Kathy, Kathy And I met
Kathy via networking of all things, which is what we're gonna talk about today
is networking. Because Kathy recently had
to do more networking, and she learned a lot from it. And I think a
(00:50):
lot of people at times go through
changes or transitions in their career lives where they have to
update their network. Right? And it's not that we ignore people or don't think that
people are important. It's that we're just we have our heads down doing what we're
doing, and sometimes you have to make an adjustment. And and getting to know
other people who can help you with that adjustment is vitally important. But
(01:12):
Kathy is has become an expert on this the last little bit
because it's how we met, and she did it so well that I wanted to
have her on the show. So good morning, Kathy. How are you? Good morning,
Tim. Thanks, and hi, Katie. Good morning. Afternoon. You
know, whatever time it is it is. Right? We are so
grateful to have you here. And, you know, even just from talking before
(01:34):
we officially started recording, What I love is that you're
coming into this conversation to share your story. This
isn't a pitch. This is your life and the way that you have
navigated that career transition, and I I just think there's a lot of
power in hearing that, especially from an
authentic current journey. So thank you for being willing
(01:55):
to share that and in service of others. So go ahead and give
us a little snippet of who you are and what it is that you
are so passionate about helping people with now. Sounds
good. So you're absolutely right. It was because of a change in
career trajectory that brought this topic to my plate.
I don't work in the field of networking, so I'm not taking on this
(02:18):
conversation because I'm, you know, a massive background
of academics and training on it. It was just a natural
organic place that I needed to learn to do something better, and I wanted
to pass it on because there are a lot of folks who go through
career changes. They did, they are, they will. And this
was such a significant pivot in my
(02:40):
approach that I couldn't just sit here and, you know, hold it all
in. I did want to share it with a broader audience. And maybe
I'll start with kind of the before impression I had
about networking and the now impression I have because I learned
more. And I will say with full disclosure, my impression
before, similar to what Tim mentioned, because you're just so
(03:02):
busy with your head down doing your work, you rely
exclusively on the results of your work to be your voice,
to be the thing that generates your network. You don't even think
about actively or purposely doing anything different
until you need to. And I had a very negative, I would
say, rigorously unproductive view of networking. In the
(03:24):
back of my mind, it wasn't an active activity. I thought it was schmoozing.
I thought it's what people did when, you know, you get invited to hockey games
or to golf games or socialize. And it was like, that's not my scene.
I'm not I can golf. I can like sports. I'm not a
schmoozer. And that's I said schmoozing equals networking. That's
not me. Others can do that. Fine. Leave me out of that
(03:46):
scene. That's not at all the correct perspective of
networking. And when I think about what I
now know to see as, like, the three legs of your career
chair, it's not or. It's not what you know.
It's who you know. It's an end conversation. It
is what you know that does count, and it's who you
(04:08):
know that's what counts. And it's who knows
you. And it's not about who knows you because
you're always out in all of these social arenas and on social
media and campaigning for yourself. It's not that.
It's who knows you because you've been very purposeful and
genuine in making connections because you're interested
(04:30):
in other industries or other skill sets or other
people's experiences in their careers or in their own
development of their own skills. I learned that you go
towards networking because you genuinely want to learn something
new about another person. It's not because you're trying to get a
job. It's not because you're just trying to promote yourself to the next
(04:52):
vertical level. People see through that fairly quickly, I
believe. So the pivotal point in my journey was,
I wanna say, 2 or 3 months into my career transition. I was
working with a coach. I was very fortunate to
have a career coach help me through from one
point of my career to to the next one that I'm on right now. And
(05:14):
there was a webinar session I was participating in, and it was
all about networking. And I thought, okay, more about networking. I was still
stuck in the schmoozing stage and during that
conversation they pitched a book on the webinar and it's
called the 20 minute networking meeting by Nathan Perez and
Marcia Belanger. I'm not affiliated with them. I'm not getting any
(05:36):
cash back for it at all. It's a super quick book. I listened to
it when I was, walking the dogs over a few a few different
sessions, and that book completely changed
my perspective on networking entirely. And I'm
if you're the person who thinks, oh, I don't need to network, I know everyone,
or they know me and my work speaks for itself, whether you're in a
(05:59):
current solid career now or you're in transition, or you're
thinking about changing, I highly recommend you read some sort
of resource. Maybe it's that book, maybe it's another one, because
networking has steps to it. I found to
my, you know, a little bit of humbling
revelation that I was so wrong that it's like
(06:21):
if you wanna learn about finances or to be better at budgeting your
money, you go and you take a course, you read a book, and you do
something different. If you wanna learn a sport or a physical activity, you have to
actively engage in changing how you're doing things now. That's
what this book did for me. And after that,
I had a completely different approach to something that,
(06:43):
first of all, I had a wrong impression of, and second of all, I'm still
nervous about it. Networking is not something where you just walk into it
and all of a sudden, like, you know how to bake muffins and now you're
good. It is something that rattles your nerves a little bit because you have to
talk to people, and sometimes it's it's a cold call. Sometimes it's just
reaching out and being vulnerable to the fact you might get
(07:04):
ghosted or you might not hear back from anyone. But on the whole, I would
say easily, probably 40, 50 different
networking conversations later that range from people I
knew to somebody I didn't know whatsoever at all, and they're
100 of miles away or kilometers. I have
had one person not get back to me. So
(07:25):
on the whole, I've had an excellent experience and I will say that
conversations have very much enriched not just my own career
path, but just my awareness. Like, being able to look up and around and
have conversations with others has been very I've
been very fortunate to have excellent conversations and people get back to
me. So one of the things that really I thought was interesting here is that
(07:47):
you mentioned earlier on there, it's not always you old saying it's
not what you know, it's who you know, but you would challenge that. You said
it's not always who you know. It can be what you know. And I really
latched onto that because one of the things that I've always said about meeting
people or networking with people is that people are
interested in networking with people that that can drive some sort of value for
(08:09):
them. Right? Or, like, there's a value proposition. There's a two way value
proposition for people, whatever it might be. And
that would tell me right away that when you are neck networking with people, if
you wanna find out who you could know, they need to know what you know.
Right? You need like, what value are you providing people? What are
you giving them, right, in order to gain that trust, in order to gain that
(08:30):
relationship? It's not like, I've always said that there's more to it than just who
you know. You actually have to drive value for people and show them how. And
that to me is what you know. But what was the biggest thing that you
like, you've had a lot of success reaching out to people. You've had a lot
of success generating responses. What are some of the things that you've been
doing that you think is creating that success for you? Well, a couple of
(08:51):
things you and the book that I mentioned before, and probably others
will get into this a little more, you have to suspend your own personal
agenda. You're not talking to somebody
because you wanna get a job. You have to let that be
like the 3rd or 4th dimension behind you, and you're having
conversations because you don't know where it's going to go. First of
(09:13):
all, you want to expand your knowledge. You want to expand
your your network beyond those that you originally do or
did work with. Mhmm. And then you're gathering it it
becomes a two way conversation. I was very surprised
how much I was able to contribute to the conversation from my
knowledge and the other party garnered from it just from having this
(09:35):
20 minute format that this resource goes
into or that any networking format goes into because it steps you
through how to actually conduct and what topics to hold
inside a 20 minute networking meeting, which includes your
overview and then making a genuine
effort to have a valuable two way discussion. And then what happens
(09:57):
after that, you don't know. So in all of the conversations
I've had with people that either I knew already and so I was
applying this technique, and it comes very genuine. It's not hard
to pick up on, you know, these five points. But whether it was somebody that
I knew or somebody that I didn't know, there's been a
follow-up of some form there afterwards, whether
(10:19):
it's been, you know, for a work purpose or not
work purpose at all, but information gathering and information sharing.
And a lot of those networking conversations have carried on
for various different reasons that have had, you know, nothing to do
with me looking for work at the time. And so I think
you just need to, in this case, like I said, suspend
(10:41):
an expectation that there's going to be a transaction, and you
just don't know where it's going to go. But if you're genuinely interested
in benefiting the other party you're talking with and
really, truly trying to expand your knowledge and your network for the
right reasons, then the magic starts, and you just let it
go. You just let those conversations happen and let those networks form
(11:04):
and develop. So you said mentioned 20 minutes. How do
you structure that? What do you do? What's your secret? Well, it
if you wanna share it. Yeah. It's it's not my secret, but I did use
it, and it's probably very common. So there's the first impression.
So the book talks about how do you make a first impression? How do you
even have a cold call conversation? How do you even open it up? It
(11:26):
gives you some language around that depending on the homework that you've
done about the person that you're going to meet or the organization that they work
with. Like, you do have to do homework. This isn't something you're on autopilot
with. So there's the first impression, and then you talk about your
overview of your career or your work experience.
Mhmm. You have some discussion points that you have prepared because
(11:49):
of the homework you've done about the individual or about the work,
or about the organization, then you actually you
stick to the 20 minutes. You don't go over 20 minutes. You have even if
the conversation is rolling and rolling, you you find an eloquent
and cordial way of having a strong ending, and then you always
follow-up. So 24 hours later, you always follow-up and thank them
(12:11):
for their time, and there could be some sort of follow-up topic. There could
have been an exchange. Well, can you get me this information, Or do you
have a contact about this component of your career or
networking or science or whatever the conversation was? And
so in my experience, even with totally cold
calling people that I didn't know, but I had been suggested.
(12:34):
You should contact so and so. Tim was one of them, by the way.
On every single one of those, this pattern was
so easy to follow. It made the
conversations very natural. And then the follow-up
was easy because there was some topic that came out of that
conversation that I was very appreciative of Right. Or the other
(12:56):
person was thankful for, and it just landed very
organically. Amazing. So what does it meant for you now? Like, you've had
the success. You know, you're meeting people that you'd
so one of the things that's interesting too is that, you know, like, you and
I have a similar experience where we had we had successful corporate
careers, and we we both moved on from that in different ways.
(13:17):
But, you know, it was very different, you know,
going from and I guess I should say, I mean, we're still the internal network.
I mean, we had the people that we had to work with, that we had
to know and and work together with. It was just different. It's a different mindset.
By getting out there in the community, it was very it was just a different
application. But, like, what are you finding? Like, so you've been doing this. You're having
(13:38):
all the success. How was I guess the question I'm trying to ask, Kathy, is
how has it changed your life and your career in the last year ish. Right?
It makes me more curious. Like, I'm not so stuck in my own little world.
It also makes me makes me want to help others in their career
transition. So if you're if you're an so personally, for me,
how does it help me? I'm less awkward when it comes to
(14:00):
having conversations with people outside of my known circle.
So you get very used to the people you work with, the people that you
regularly engage with. You have natural conversations. And then
what you do with folks that you don't naturally work with. Well, now I'm in
a space where I'm meeting new people regularly and consistently
in in my role. And so although I'm an introvert by
(14:22):
nature, I'm much more comfortable because of these
networking techniques on being able to hold conversations
with others with a real genuine interest in what they're doing. Like, my head isn't
stuck in the sand anymore. It allows me also to maintain and
grow my network without being so, I guess, nervous or
negative about the whole conversation. And I know that it's from a place
(14:45):
of wanting to get to know people more and their
experiences and how can I
help or how could they help me? And it's very reciprocal, organic conversation, and it's
not forced and it's not awkward and it's not negative anymore in my
mind. The last
part that I would really want to encourage others is if you are in career
transition, networking to me in my experience
(15:08):
was far more of an area that I needed to focus on in order to
move on to my next role. So if you've got a really great resume and
you've got a really great cover letter and you've been submitting it to LinkedIn
profiles or Indeed profiles or or wherever your job search
takes you, that is a very, very, very small portion of the
effort. You need to take that to the next level and put that effort
(15:31):
on steroids, which is do research on the
place, the group, the organization that you're applying to. Put
yourself out there and call up the hiring manager or call up the front office
office staff and seek who is the hiring manager and use these
techniques to offer to have a networking conversation. You also
might wanna find out who works with the organization
(15:53):
or who knows people who work for the organization and start
building that network, that framework around
your efforts. Because in the end, what's the worst that can happen? You don't
get the role or the person doesn't call you back, but you've put
in all of this effort to try and go after it, which is
far beyond the success that you'll get if you're just gonna submit a
(16:14):
resume. That is just such a it's a small step. It's not the only
step, though. You have a little more control over things, and networking is is definitely
a tool to go along with it. So what's interesting about this is that I
can think about an application of this where so Katie and I
actually have a mutual friend who had to crack a really tough career
nut. He wanted to go work at Disney World in a
(16:36):
leadership role and relocate. And so the
thing about doing that is that you could be the perfect candidate for
it, but there's a degree of difficulty in that. Because first of all, Disney
does a great job at promoting from within, not because they just do it
for the sake of doing it, but because they develop their people to be the
best candidate for jobs. So getting a job
(16:58):
that's a little bit higher of the org chart to start is not easy. The
other thing is that it's not always they don't always need to relocate people. And
so he had to do a pile of networking to
do that. And it wasn't just about networking just to get a job. It was
about networking about how I can drive value for you. And he had
a great resume. I know because I did it.
(17:19):
I was gonna say, I know who did that. Give a shout out.
Yeah. But he that was just like you said, Kat,
this is one piece of the puzzle. Right? It was he had to
let people know that he was there, but not just that he was there and
he wanted a job, that he was there and he could provide value to you
and how he could provide value to you. But then if and
(17:40):
you need that to back up a resume. They all help each other. They all
serve each other. Because if you meet somebody and then you send them a resume
that is underwhelming, then they're like, oh, okay. Cool, I
guess. But if you, you know, you need to back it's it's a multifaceted
approach, and each piece backs up the other. Right? Kinda like what you were saying.
Yep. No. For sure. I mean, there's definitely a reason
(18:01):
for networking and support of your next career opportunity, and that's a
very targeted purposeful way to do it or tool to
use. And there's also networking to maintain
ongoing health of your network connections because you don't know what's out
there, and you want to always have assure that you've got this,
I won't call it a safety net, but a web a web of
(18:23):
opportunities for conversations. And so if you hold them both in
a healthy space, then you've always got this skill at your
fingertips to be able to leverage for, you know, building
your current business. Or if you're in a world of business development, that you
can leverage it there. If you're in career transition, you can leverage it there.
If you've got a specific role that you really wanna go
(18:45):
after, there's no harm in using this skill
set very powerfully to be on your side. A
100%. And one thing I love, you said one of my
absolute favorite words is curiosity. Leading with
curiosity and genuine interest in
what somebody does, what their organization does. People love to
(19:06):
talk about themselves. So ask them questions, and it can even
kind of spark that next thought of, oh, man, I should meet that
person. And it just it creates that ripple effect. I
know now that that person that Tim was mentioning, now that he
has made that transition, he's still networking, still
having meetings with people, still getting to know people out of that
(19:29):
genuine interest and curiosity. And they're even though it's an
internal networking, it still helps remove the
barrier of networking feels uncomfortable. I feel like I'm
asking for people or asking something that I shouldn't be. It
feels embarrassing. By doing it more out of genuine
curiosity, to your point, it really just makes it
(19:51):
an opportunity to meet people and learn. It's a skill.
Yeah. It is a skill. And like anything, it takes
consistent work. Doing it once, I really doubt that's
going to just make you very savvy and comfortable with networking.
So I definitely agree. It is a skill and not
everybody feels like it is well developed. That's okay. We train. And
(20:13):
if people aren't comfortable training, there's coaches, there's support, there's
books and resources, and there's you. And I wanna make
sure that I don't forget to ask how people could get in
touch with you just to learn more about that transition and
hear your experience and the ways that you could even support them as
they navigate that networking piece. You hit the nail on the head with the last
(20:35):
part of the question. And tell people how you can help them, Kathy, too, because
I know that you can drive a lot of value for people. Well, thanks to
both of you for this opportunity. I mean, there are networking resources out
there. On LinkedIn, there are coaches for this. I met
through a NAPEGA webinar on the NEXUS
conference, Diane Darling. And so I've
(20:56):
got her on my LinkedIn network, and she's got some great
resources there. Personally, you can reach out to me at kathy@kbgbusinesssolutions.com.
There's 3 s's in the middle there. I'd be happy to share my
experience. Like I said, I'm I'm not in the field of networking as a
career, but I can certainly be a sounding board. We
(21:17):
can have a networking conversation. We can practice some of these
steps if you'd like, and then we can just go from there. But I'm I'm
really thankful to have a chance to be on the show today and to
pass on some of my learnings because it was it was just pivotal in my
experience. I love it. And I appreciate your authenticity around
this and genuine interest in helping and putting yourself out there
(21:39):
in service of others that it's very refreshing. And, see, networking
doesn't have to feel ick. It it genuinely can feel
good, and I am grateful that Tim even said, hey. I've
got somebody we need to talk with. So grateful to have you on,
Kathy. Tim, I know you are certainly able to support
that conversation around networking through the work that Best Culture
(22:01):
Solutions does. So, naturally, people can connect with you as
well. Yeah. That's right. I mean, easily found best
culture solutions dot CA because we're in Canada. But my email address is tim@bestculturesolutions.ca.
Excellent. Well, thank you both so much. Sincerely appreciate the time and
conversation. And you have definitely sparked a few thoughts in my mind
(22:22):
of more that we need to ask, and I'm interested in because networking
didn't feel great for me at first either. So thank you for this
reframing of it, Kathy, and I'm sure people will be reaching out here
soon. So thank you both.
Welcome to the World at Work podcast where business leaders and job seekers
come together to create winning cultures and fulfilling careers. I'm your
host, Katie Courant, and I am here with Tim Dick, founder of Best
Culture Solutions. And we have somebody else with us
today, Tim. Pretty exciting. We do. Yeah. We have this
is you know, it's funny. This is probably the first time that we've ever
(00:29):
had somebody on the show that was a local guest which like
shame on me for not doing it before, but I'm excited that who we have
today is to be our first. But her name is Kathy, Kathy And I met
Kathy via networking of all things, which is what we're gonna talk about today
is networking. Because Kathy recently had
to do more networking, and she learned a lot from it. And I think a
(00:50):
lot of people at times go through
changes or transitions in their career lives where they have to
update their network. Right? And it's not that we ignore people or don't think that
people are important. It's that we're just we have our heads down doing what we're
doing, and sometimes you have to make an adjustment. And and getting to know
other people who can help you with that adjustment is vitally important. But
(01:12):
Kathy is has become an expert on this the last little bit
because it's how we met, and she did it so well that I wanted to
have her on the show. So good morning, Kathy. How are you? Good morning,
Tim. Thanks, and hi, Katie. Good morning. Afternoon. You
know, whatever time it is it is. Right? We are so
grateful to have you here. And, you know, even just from talking before
(01:34):
we officially started recording, What I love is that you're
coming into this conversation to share your story. This
isn't a pitch. This is your life and the way that you have
navigated that career transition, and I I just think there's a lot of
power in hearing that, especially from an
authentic current journey. So thank you for being willing
(01:55):
to share that and in service of others. So go ahead and give
us a little snippet of who you are and what it is that you
are so passionate about helping people with now. Sounds
good. So you're absolutely right. It was because of a change in
career trajectory that brought this topic to my plate.
I don't work in the field of networking, so I'm not taking on this
(02:18):
conversation because I'm, you know, a massive background
of academics and training on it. It was just a natural
organic place that I needed to learn to do something better, and I wanted
to pass it on because there are a lot of folks who go through
career changes. They did, they are, they will. And this
was such a significant pivot in my
(02:40):
approach that I couldn't just sit here and, you know, hold it all
in. I did want to share it with a broader audience. And maybe
I'll start with kind of the before impression I had
about networking and the now impression I have because I learned
more. And I will say with full disclosure, my impression
before, similar to what Tim mentioned, because you're just so
(03:02):
busy with your head down doing your work, you rely
exclusively on the results of your work to be your voice,
to be the thing that generates your network. You don't even think
about actively or purposely doing anything different
until you need to. And I had a very negative, I would
say, rigorously unproductive view of networking. In the
(03:24):
back of my mind, it wasn't an active activity. I thought it was schmoozing.
I thought it's what people did when, you know, you get invited to hockey games
or to golf games or socialize. And it was like, that's not my scene.
I'm not I can golf. I can like sports. I'm not a
schmoozer. And that's I said schmoozing equals networking. That's
not me. Others can do that. Fine. Leave me out of that
(03:46):
scene. That's not at all the correct perspective of
networking. And when I think about what I
now know to see as, like, the three legs of your career
chair, it's not or. It's not what you know.
It's who you know. It's an end conversation. It
is what you know that does count, and it's who you
(04:08):
know that's what counts. And it's who knows
you. And it's not about who knows you because
you're always out in all of these social arenas and on social
media and campaigning for yourself. It's not that.
It's who knows you because you've been very purposeful and
genuine in making connections because you're interested
(04:30):
in other industries or other skill sets or other
people's experiences in their careers or in their own
development of their own skills. I learned that you go
towards networking because you genuinely want to learn something
new about another person. It's not because you're trying to get a
job. It's not because you're just trying to promote yourself to the next
(04:52):
vertical level. People see through that fairly quickly, I
believe. So the pivotal point in my journey was,
I wanna say, 2 or 3 months into my career transition. I was
working with a coach. I was very fortunate to
have a career coach help me through from one
point of my career to to the next one that I'm on right now. And
(05:14):
there was a webinar session I was participating in, and it was
all about networking. And I thought, okay, more about networking. I was still
stuck in the schmoozing stage and during that
conversation they pitched a book on the webinar and it's
called the 20 minute networking meeting by Nathan Perez and
Marcia Belanger. I'm not affiliated with them. I'm not getting any
(05:36):
cash back for it at all. It's a super quick book. I listened to
it when I was, walking the dogs over a few a few different
sessions, and that book completely changed
my perspective on networking entirely. And I'm
if you're the person who thinks, oh, I don't need to network, I know everyone,
or they know me and my work speaks for itself, whether you're in a
(05:59):
current solid career now or you're in transition, or you're
thinking about changing, I highly recommend you read some sort
of resource. Maybe it's that book, maybe it's another one, because
networking has steps to it. I found to
my, you know, a little bit of humbling
revelation that I was so wrong that it's like
(06:21):
if you wanna learn about finances or to be better at budgeting your
money, you go and you take a course, you read a book, and you do
something different. If you wanna learn a sport or a physical activity, you have to
actively engage in changing how you're doing things now. That's
what this book did for me. And after that,
I had a completely different approach to something that,
(06:43):
first of all, I had a wrong impression of, and second of all, I'm still
nervous about it. Networking is not something where you just walk into it
and all of a sudden, like, you know how to bake muffins and now you're
good. It is something that rattles your nerves a little bit because you have to
talk to people, and sometimes it's it's a cold call. Sometimes it's just
reaching out and being vulnerable to the fact you might get
(07:04):
ghosted or you might not hear back from anyone. But on the whole, I would
say easily, probably 40, 50 different
networking conversations later that range from people I
knew to somebody I didn't know whatsoever at all, and they're
100 of miles away or kilometers. I have
had one person not get back to me. So
(07:25):
on the whole, I've had an excellent experience and I will say that
conversations have very much enriched not just my own career
path, but just my awareness. Like, being able to look up and around and
have conversations with others has been very I've
been very fortunate to have excellent conversations and people get back to
me. So one of the things that really I thought was interesting here is that
(07:47):
you mentioned earlier on there, it's not always you old saying it's
not what you know, it's who you know, but you would challenge that. You said
it's not always who you know. It can be what you know. And I really
latched onto that because one of the things that I've always said about meeting
people or networking with people is that people are
interested in networking with people that that can drive some sort of value for
(08:09):
them. Right? Or, like, there's a value proposition. There's a two way value
proposition for people, whatever it might be. And
that would tell me right away that when you are neck networking with people, if
you wanna find out who you could know, they need to know what you know.
Right? You need like, what value are you providing people? What are
you giving them, right, in order to gain that trust, in order to gain that
(08:30):
relationship? It's not like, I've always said that there's more to it than just who
you know. You actually have to drive value for people and show them how. And
that to me is what you know. But what was the biggest thing that you
like, you've had a lot of success reaching out to people. You've had a lot
of success generating responses. What are some of the things that you've been
doing that you think is creating that success for you? Well, a couple of
(08:51):
things you and the book that I mentioned before, and probably others
will get into this a little more, you have to suspend your own personal
agenda. You're not talking to somebody
because you wanna get a job. You have to let that be
like the 3rd or 4th dimension behind you, and you're having
conversations because you don't know where it's going to go. First of
(09:13):
all, you want to expand your knowledge. You want to expand
your your network beyond those that you originally do or
did work with. Mhmm. And then you're gathering it it
becomes a two way conversation. I was very surprised
how much I was able to contribute to the conversation from my
knowledge and the other party garnered from it just from having this
(09:35):
20 minute format that this resource goes
into or that any networking format goes into because it steps you
through how to actually conduct and what topics to hold
inside a 20 minute networking meeting, which includes your
overview and then making a genuine
effort to have a valuable two way discussion. And then what happens
(09:57):
after that, you don't know. So in all of the conversations
I've had with people that either I knew already and so I was
applying this technique, and it comes very genuine. It's not hard
to pick up on, you know, these five points. But whether it was somebody that
I knew or somebody that I didn't know, there's been a
follow-up of some form there afterwards, whether
(10:19):
it's been, you know, for a work purpose or not
work purpose at all, but information gathering and information sharing.
And a lot of those networking conversations have carried on
for various different reasons that have had, you know, nothing to do
with me looking for work at the time. And so I think
you just need to, in this case, like I said, suspend
(10:41):
an expectation that there's going to be a transaction, and you
just don't know where it's going to go. But if you're genuinely interested
in benefiting the other party you're talking with and
really, truly trying to expand your knowledge and your network for the
right reasons, then the magic starts, and you just let it
go. You just let those conversations happen and let those networks form
(11:04):
and develop. So you said mentioned 20 minutes. How do
you structure that? What do you do? What's your secret? Well, it
if you wanna share it. Yeah. It's it's not my secret, but I did use
it, and it's probably very common. So there's the first impression.
So the book talks about how do you make a first impression? How do you
even have a cold call conversation? How do you even open it up? It
(11:26):
gives you some language around that depending on the homework that you've
done about the person that you're going to meet or the organization that they work
with. Like, you do have to do homework. This isn't something you're on autopilot
with. So there's the first impression, and then you talk about your
overview of your career or your work experience.
Mhmm. You have some discussion points that you have prepared because
(11:49):
of the homework you've done about the individual or about the work,
or about the organization, then you actually you
stick to the 20 minutes. You don't go over 20 minutes. You have even if
the conversation is rolling and rolling, you you find an eloquent
and cordial way of having a strong ending, and then you always
follow-up. So 24 hours later, you always follow-up and thank them
(12:11):
for their time, and there could be some sort of follow-up topic. There could
have been an exchange. Well, can you get me this information, Or do you
have a contact about this component of your career or
networking or science or whatever the conversation was? And
so in my experience, even with totally cold
calling people that I didn't know, but I had been suggested.
(12:34):
You should contact so and so. Tim was one of them, by the way.
On every single one of those, this pattern was
so easy to follow. It made the
conversations very natural. And then the follow-up
was easy because there was some topic that came out of that
conversation that I was very appreciative of Right. Or the other
(12:56):
person was thankful for, and it just landed very
organically. Amazing. So what does it meant for you now? Like, you've had
the success. You know, you're meeting people that you'd
so one of the things that's interesting too is that, you know, like, you and
I have a similar experience where we had we had successful corporate
careers, and we we both moved on from that in different ways.
(13:17):
But, you know, it was very different, you know,
going from and I guess I should say, I mean, we're still the internal network.
I mean, we had the people that we had to work with, that we had
to know and and work together with. It was just different. It's a different mindset.
By getting out there in the community, it was very it was just a different
application. But, like, what are you finding? Like, so you've been doing this. You're having
(13:38):
all the success. How was I guess the question I'm trying to ask, Kathy, is
how has it changed your life and your career in the last year ish. Right?
It makes me more curious. Like, I'm not so stuck in my own little world.
It also makes me makes me want to help others in their career
transition. So if you're if you're an so personally, for me,
how does it help me? I'm less awkward when it comes to
(14:00):
having conversations with people outside of my known circle.
So you get very used to the people you work with, the people that you
regularly engage with. You have natural conversations. And then
what you do with folks that you don't naturally work with. Well, now I'm in
a space where I'm meeting new people regularly and consistently
in in my role. And so although I'm an introvert by
(14:22):
nature, I'm much more comfortable because of these
networking techniques on being able to hold conversations
with others with a real genuine interest in what they're doing. Like, my head isn't
stuck in the sand anymore. It allows me also to maintain and
grow my network without being so, I guess, nervous or
negative about the whole conversation. And I know that it's from a place
(14:45):
of wanting to get to know people more and their
experiences and how can I
help or how could they help me? And it's very reciprocal, organic conversation, and it's
not forced and it's not awkward and it's not negative anymore in my
mind. The last
part that I would really want to encourage others is if you are in career
transition, networking to me in my experience
(15:08):
was far more of an area that I needed to focus on in order to
move on to my next role. So if you've got a really great resume and
you've got a really great cover letter and you've been submitting it to LinkedIn
profiles or Indeed profiles or or wherever your job search
takes you, that is a very, very, very small portion of the
effort. You need to take that to the next level and put that effort
(15:31):
on steroids, which is do research on the
place, the group, the organization that you're applying to. Put
yourself out there and call up the hiring manager or call up the front office
office staff and seek who is the hiring manager and use these
techniques to offer to have a networking conversation. You also
might wanna find out who works with the organization
(15:53):
or who knows people who work for the organization and start
building that network, that framework around
your efforts. Because in the end, what's the worst that can happen? You don't
get the role or the person doesn't call you back, but you've put
in all of this effort to try and go after it, which is
far beyond the success that you'll get if you're just gonna submit a
(16:14):
resume. That is just such a it's a small step. It's not the only
step, though. You have a little more control over things, and networking is is definitely
a tool to go along with it. So what's interesting about this is that I
can think about an application of this where so Katie and I
actually have a mutual friend who had to crack a really tough career
nut. He wanted to go work at Disney World in a
(16:36):
leadership role and relocate. And so the
thing about doing that is that you could be the perfect candidate for
it, but there's a degree of difficulty in that. Because first of all, Disney
does a great job at promoting from within, not because they just do it
for the sake of doing it, but because they develop their people to be the
best candidate for jobs. So getting a job
(16:58):
that's a little bit higher of the org chart to start is not easy. The
other thing is that it's not always they don't always need to relocate people. And
so he had to do a pile of networking to
do that. And it wasn't just about networking just to get a job. It was
about networking about how I can drive value for you. And he had
a great resume. I know because I did it.
(17:19):
I was gonna say, I know who did that. Give a shout out.
Yeah. But he that was just like you said, Kat,
this is one piece of the puzzle. Right? It was he had to
let people know that he was there, but not just that he was there and
he wanted a job, that he was there and he could provide value to you
and how he could provide value to you. But then if and
(17:40):
you need that to back up a resume. They all help each other. They all
serve each other. Because if you meet somebody and then you send them a resume
that is underwhelming, then they're like, oh, okay. Cool, I
guess. But if you, you know, you need to back it's it's a multifaceted
approach, and each piece backs up the other. Right? Kinda like what you were saying.
Yep. No. For sure. I mean, there's definitely a reason
(18:01):
for networking and support of your next career opportunity, and that's a
very targeted purposeful way to do it or tool to
use. And there's also networking to maintain
ongoing health of your network connections because you don't know what's out
there, and you want to always have assure that you've got this,
I won't call it a safety net, but a web a web of
(18:23):
opportunities for conversations. And so if you hold them both in
a healthy space, then you've always got this skill at your
fingertips to be able to leverage for, you know, building
your current business. Or if you're in a world of business development, that you
can leverage it there. If you're in career transition, you can leverage it there.
If you've got a specific role that you really wanna go
(18:45):
after, there's no harm in using this skill
set very powerfully to be on your side. A
100%. And one thing I love, you said one of my
absolute favorite words is curiosity. Leading with
curiosity and genuine interest in
what somebody does, what their organization does. People love to
(19:06):
talk about themselves. So ask them questions, and it can even
kind of spark that next thought of, oh, man, I should meet that
person. And it just it creates that ripple effect. I
know now that that person that Tim was mentioning, now that he
has made that transition, he's still networking, still
having meetings with people, still getting to know people out of that
(19:29):
genuine interest and curiosity. And they're even though it's an
internal networking, it still helps remove the
barrier of networking feels uncomfortable. I feel like I'm
asking for people or asking something that I shouldn't be. It
feels embarrassing. By doing it more out of genuine
curiosity, to your point, it really just makes it
(19:51):
an opportunity to meet people and learn. It's a skill.
Yeah. It is a skill. And like anything, it takes
consistent work. Doing it once, I really doubt that's
going to just make you very savvy and comfortable with networking.
So I definitely agree. It is a skill and not
everybody feels like it is well developed. That's okay. We train. And
(20:13):
if people aren't comfortable training, there's coaches, there's support, there's
books and resources, and there's you. And I wanna make
sure that I don't forget to ask how people could get in
touch with you just to learn more about that transition and
hear your experience and the ways that you could even support them as
they navigate that networking piece. You hit the nail on the head with the last
(20:35):
part of the question. And tell people how you can help them, Kathy, too, because
I know that you can drive a lot of value for people. Well, thanks to
both of you for this opportunity. I mean, there are networking resources out
there. On LinkedIn, there are coaches for this. I met
through a NAPEGA webinar on the NEXUS
conference, Diane Darling. And so I've
(20:56):
got her on my LinkedIn network, and she's got some great
resources there. Personally, you can reach out to me at kathy@kbgbusinesssolutions.com.
There's 3 s's in the middle there. I'd be happy to share my
experience. Like I said, I'm I'm not in the field of networking as a
career, but I can certainly be a sounding board. We
(21:17):
can have a networking conversation. We can practice some of these
steps if you'd like, and then we can just go from there. But I'm I'm
really thankful to have a chance to be on the show today and to
pass on some of my learnings because it was it was just pivotal in my
experience. I love it. And I appreciate your authenticity around
this and genuine interest in helping and putting yourself out there
(21:39):
in service of others that it's very refreshing. And, see, networking
doesn't have to feel ick. It it genuinely can feel
good, and I am grateful that Tim even said, hey. I've
got somebody we need to talk with. So grateful to have you on,
Kathy. Tim, I know you are certainly able to support
that conversation around networking through the work that Best Culture
(22:01):
Solutions does. So, naturally, people can connect with you as
well. Yeah. That's right. I mean, easily found best
culture solutions dot CA because we're in Canada. But my email address is tim@bestculturesolutions.ca.
Excellent. Well, thank you both so much. Sincerely appreciate the time and
conversation. And you have definitely sparked a few thoughts in my mind
(22:22):
of more that we need to ask, and I'm interested in because networking
didn't feel great for me at first either. So thank you for this
reframing of it, Kathy, and I'm sure people will be reaching out here
soon. So thank you both.
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