CLASSICS: Michael Freeman!

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Big Food and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo.

Speaker 2 (00:08):
These guys, are you fav It's so like to say,
subscribe and raid it live.

Speaker 1 (00:13):
Starck S and.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
Grates on us today listening, Oh watching Lin always keep
it's watching. And now you're hosts Cliff Barrickman and James
Bubo Fay. Hello, Bobo, how are you doing today, Sir Cliff?
Going pretty good? Man, it's going pretty good, beautiful day
here in the you know, boring Oregon area. And what

(00:41):
a guest. This is a guest that I've been trying
to get on for a little while, you know, but
are scheduling issues and all this other stuff. But now
is the perfect time because well, this gentleman has a
book coming out very very soon that it's going to
blow the socks off of a lot of people. I've
been helping out with the book a little bit. I
know about what's in it's and stuff. It's gonna be fantastic.
But really, let's get right to it. We have not

(01:04):
a researcher per se, but the son of one of
the most famous, controversial and active researchers of all time.
We have mister Michael Freeman, son of Paul Freeman on
the podcast today, and he has come on because well,
now he's got a book coming out, and also secondly,
he's kind of tired of all the misinformation, lies, fabrications

(01:26):
and rumors swirling about his father and he wants to
set the record straight. And I'm a big advocate of
the Freeman and Blue Mountain evidence in general, so I
jumped at the chance. Michael Freeman, Welcome to Bigfoot and
Beyond with Cliff and the Bobes. I'm so happy you
can come on.

Speaker 3 (01:42):
Thank you, Yeah, thank you very much.

Speaker 4 (01:44):
Yeah, And I know, you know, Cliff and I we
talk often, but James, I think we've only spoken once.

Speaker 3 (01:50):
We talked.

Speaker 5 (01:52):
It was we had we had a couple we had
like a four hour conversations in like a two and
a half hour conversation.

Speaker 4 (01:58):
Okay, all right, Yeah, I know we spoke at least once.

Speaker 3 (02:01):
We're on the same page.

Speaker 5 (02:02):
Your dad's underappreciated and it's a lot of bum wraps,
and we're yeah, I'm glad you're setting the record straight
and took the time to write a book to clear
his legacy.

Speaker 4 (02:12):
Yeah, well that's the plan, and you know, that's what
I'm hoping to look to do, because you know, there
is a lot of misinformation, there's a lot of misunderstanding,
there's a lot of mystery, and there's a lot of rumor.
You know that that surrounds my father. Uh And I
just you know, let me start, I guess by saying
before we even do anything else here today, it's we

(02:34):
are in the business of evidence. We are not in
the business of rumors and hearsay.

Speaker 2 (02:40):
That's a really important point because so much of the
so many of the reasons that people may not like
your father's evidence is because they heard so and so
thinks this about it, you know, and what kind of
what kind of researching is that? You know, because you know,
Renee to Hindon kind of went back and forth on
your dad's evidence for a while, and there were some

(03:00):
things he was absolutely positive were not real, and people
Renee didn't think the evidence was real. Well, so, what
what do you think about the evidence? Or have you
never seen it? Is the question, because I find a
lot of these people talking smack about your dad have
never really spent the time with the evidence, or they
may have seen one or two casts. And while since

(03:21):
I did bring up Renee, I want to kind of
defend Renee in a way. He was a very good researcher.
He was really meticulous and thoughtful and a lot of
things he did, but he was also kind of you know,
we talked a lot of smack about other people. And also,
and this is the point I want to make, he
did not have the information about the Sasquatch foot that
we do today. There's a video on Todd Prescott's excellent

(03:44):
site of Sasquatch Archives where the shows that Renee de
Hindin's with a handful of people in his backyard and
they lay out I think it was the eighty seven trackway.
I think there were five foot prints in a roof
the eighty seven trackway, if I remember correctly, and he
laid them all out, and he just kind of dug
into him and said, ah, this and that, look at
the sausage toes. Are you telling me this? And thankfully

(04:04):
doctor Meldrum jumped on board and wrote an answer to
every one of the things that Renee the Hinden found
to be a problem about that trackway. And see what
it was is Renee didn't know as much as we
do now about the Sasquatch foot. So his criticisms were
based on less information. But now that we know so
much more about the Sasquatch foot and its capabilities and

(04:26):
flexibilities and all that stuff, what Renee actually was nitpicking
about are actually reasons to think that they're real. Like
Renee was always commenting about the sausage toes because they
look like little sausages. But what he didn't understand is
that the toes have a lot of what's called dorsive flexion,
basically flexing upwards. And when if your toes are flexed upwards,

(04:48):
the only part of the toe that's going to impress
into the ground are the toe stems, and they're going
to be pointy at the end, and they don't look
like toes, but they are. And you can see some
of these things in those casts, and Renee saw them
and thought that it was nonsense and fake because of it.
But yeah, so I would encourage people out there to
maybe perhaps form their own opinion instead of relying on

(05:08):
those who came before us that perhaps don't didn't know
or don't know as much about Sasquatch footprints as they
could have. So yeah, rumor versus evidence. Man, Well, anyway,
so your dad got into this in nineteen eighty two,
and when he saw one on June tenth, tenth, right,
it was the tenth or six tenth.

Speaker 4 (05:25):
June, I think nineteen eighty two, correct.

Speaker 2 (05:27):
Yeah, how old were you at that time?

Speaker 4 (05:29):
I was five years old?

Speaker 2 (05:31):
Five years old. Do you have any recollection of that?

Speaker 3 (05:34):
I do.

Speaker 4 (05:36):
I don't necessarily have any recollection of him talking about
the siding or Bigfoot, but I have recollection of people.
And one of the gentlemen we were just discussing, Renee Dehindon,
is someone that I remember vividly being at our home
on multiple occasions. I remember him sleeping on our pullout

(05:59):
sofa bed, and I have real vivid memories of Grover
Krantz as well, in the cloud of smoke from his
cigarettes that kind of always surrounded him, kind of like
pai pin from you know, peanuts in the dust, if
you imagine Grover. But I was a little too young
to have I think a lot of real vivid memories
of what was happening at the time, as far as

(06:20):
his sighting and him kind of getting in the paper
and becoming somewhat of a celebrity, you know, or any
of the problems that he was having with the floor
service and things like that. I have, I think better
memories now that I'm older, because I know more information.
So it seems like I remember a lot, But I
think a lot of that is stuff that I've learned

(06:41):
since I got older.

Speaker 2 (06:42):
Yeah, and learned from a variety of sources, or from
your just the family members, or talking to your dad
or I guess it's all of those and more.

Speaker 4 (06:48):
Right, Yeah, all those are more of a variety of sources.
You know. Obviously, I grew up with Bigfoot, you know,
from the time I was five, so that was normal
to me. Heard all the stories. You know, I've been
out in the field and I've seen tracks and things
like that. But also, you know, I've been around you know,
West Summerlin, and I've been in Grover Trance's lab at WSU.

(07:11):
And then of course as I get older and I
make all these acquaintances like you guys, you know, and
other people, I always learn more information because you know,
not everybody knows everything, and sometimes I learned things that
are new to me, you know still this week.

Speaker 2 (07:24):
Well, yeah, Bigfoot is kind of the gift that keeps
on given in that sort of way. I would imagine
and you're and you you're part of like Bigfoot royalties.
So a lot of people have crossed your family's path
at one point or another and have interactions with your
dad or or Wes, you know, or a lot of
the unsung heroes of the Blue Mountain Evidence. And you know,
that's something I'd like to bring up and point out,
is that the Blue Mountain Evidence is very often all

(07:47):
just referred to as a whole as the Freeman evidence.
But that's not really the case. Your dad was out
there a lot, but at the same time, there were
a lot of other people involved. Maybe talk about some
of them for us.

Speaker 4 (07:58):
Yeah, well, I mean you had my dad, and he's
kind of generally, I think considered one of the leaders
of that group. You know, he's not the elder statesman,
because West Summerland was the elder statesman of that group.
You know, in a fine cowboy and a fine tracker
in his own right, and was already experienced in Bigfoot
by the time my dad even came around. You had

(08:20):
David Bean who was a professional tracker as well. Bill
Lowry was a scientist and a game warden. I believe
at one point in time he was out there. You
had Dark Glasgow Addington. She was Dark Glasgow at the time.
She was out there in the field, and you know,
since we brought her up, she's a lovely human being

(08:42):
and a real pioneer actually as being one of the
early female researchers and especially you know, for that particular area.
But there was a lot of people that were out there.
Kranz came out there and he spent a lot of
time with my dad. After eighty two, you had people
like Greg May who was a survival expert and wilderness

(09:02):
survival instructor at Washington State University, and he spent a
lot of time out there and was part of that
entourage for about four or five years. I'm sure I'm
forgetting someone as well. But yeah, it's not just my
dad and it's not just his evidence. There's multiple people
pulling multiple footprints and hair samples and finding trackways and

(09:23):
even having sightings, you know, over this fifteen twenty year period.
But everyone likes to pile it on the Freeman name.
So you know, I hear that all the time.

Speaker 5 (09:33):
Yeah, for those listening that I was going to say,
for those listening, the freeman we're talking about is the
Freeman footage is the footage of the Bigfoot walking away
like people think it might be picking up a baby.
It's a color clip, just some people that we're talking about.

Speaker 2 (09:48):
Yeah, and really all the Freeman evidence because he was
working that area for ten years before he got the footage.
Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and
Bobo will be right back after these messages. Boba, are
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Speaker 2 (11:52):
I think he got two little clips over the years,
one of ddux sprains. We'll get to that in a
few minutes, but for now, so, there was a a
whole gang of people you probably listed off at least eight.
I wasn't counting. I probably should have been at least
eight or maybe ten people there and all of their
evidence put together for that twenty year span of high activity.
The Golden Age of the Blue Mountains, from my counting

(12:14):
is about sixty or so track fines, a lot more prints,
but that's because people a good researchers go to a
location and if there's multiple prints, they usually come back
with multiple casts. That's not always the case, but it
started being the case with your father. I know. I
think your dad started with one or two casts from
a location, but he eventually started bringing lots of casts

(12:34):
back from certain track fines.

Speaker 4 (12:37):
Correct. Yeah, And you know, that is something I would
like to touch on because I think there's a misconception
by a lot of the general public when they think
about Bigfoot or you know, finding bigfoot tracks or having casts,
that if you have let's say thirty casts, that means
that you found footprints on thirty different occasions from thirty

(12:57):
different individual animals. And that certainly isn't the case, and
that's not true. And when you look at let's just say,
my father, in his fifteen years of research in the
Blue Mountains. He's got about forty five to fifty casts,
I think is what the number is, and that averages
out to about three casts per year, which isn't something

(13:21):
you know, that's an outrageous number over a fifteen year period.
And when you start taking into account that there were two, three,
up to five sometimes casts that were taken from a
single trackway, that really cuts that number down even more.
It's not like he was out there finding tracks and
making casts every day. We're talking about finding maybe one

(13:42):
or two sets of tracks per year if that, you know.
And out of the forty five to fifty casts that
we have, we have seven casts that come from the
first six days that he was ever even exposed to bigfoot,
you know, that were taken. So that cuts that number down,
you know, to like what thirty eight and something or
you know around there. But and I think that you know,

(14:05):
at least Cliff, you're in agreement with me, when we
look at the Blue Mountain evidence that we're looking at
probably four or five individuals in about fifteen to twenty years.
There's not a whole lot of bigfoot running around there.
Two that we can identify completely, you know, that we
think are female and we can get into that, you know,
also in a little bit. And then we have a
big male that is very elusive that we don't have

(14:25):
a whole lot of evidence on. And then we have
the possibility of one or two more in the early eighties,
which we're not quite sure. One of them could be
one that we already love, but we're looking at probably
about four or five, and then maybe a juvenile that
gets thrown into that. So it's not like my father
has forty five CASTI It's it's forty five different bigfoot
that are running around outside of wall wall. You know,

(14:46):
we're looking at four animals in twenty years.

Speaker 2 (14:49):
Well, you know, I was counting today because I was
thinking about that, Sam. I know we're going to talk
about this at some point, about how many per year. Well,
I started counting up the track finds in the Bluff
Creek Rea during the Bluff Creek Golden Age, which is
nineteen fifty eight to nineteen sixty eight, and I just
counted track fines, not individual tracks. And as far as

(15:12):
track finds go, there were something like seventeen ish and
I'm sure I'm missing one or two, but because I
don't have records, of all that stuff. But I have
a pretty decent record, So let's just say, let's just
say give it the benefit that out twenty, maybe as
many as twenty different track finds that there are casts from,
and so that's what two a year. So the people

(15:33):
who complain about Paul Freeman finding three a year is
being too many, well what do they have to say
the Bluff Creek stuff, you know, because there were two
a year on average there, and some of those track
finds there were ten or more casts obtained from them,
like the Patterson Giblin site for example. So I don't know.
It seems that some of the arguments against the Freeman

(15:53):
stuff like he is the luckiest bigfoot in the world,
or there's he was finding too many things to be
taken seriously, Well not really when you look at it
from that perspective, And as a follow up question of
what you were saying, by the best of your memory,
how many weekends or whatever a month did your dad
spend in the woods, because the Bluff Creek situation wasn't
like that. They weren't They weren't out there two or

(16:14):
three times a month.

Speaker 4 (16:15):
A lot of time in the woods. And you know,
when when this book comes out, hopefully next month, we're
going to go more into detail in that as well
and kind of how that affected, you know, my mother
and my family. But we're talking three to four days
a week, at least four four or five hours at

(16:36):
a time, at least sometimes overnight, sometimes a week at
a time, sometimes two weeks at a time, gone from home,
camping by himself in the mountains before cell phones, with
no way to be in contact, you know, with my mom,
who you know, for some periods of time didn't know

(16:59):
if he was alive or day until he got into
CV rage and he could call her on his CV radio.
And you know, we had one of the home as well.
But yeah, the man spent a lot of time, more
time than he probably should have to be honest.

Speaker 2 (17:15):
Well, you know, you bring something. I know, we're all
over the place. It's an exactly linear conversation, but you
mentioned your mother. And I'm a big advocate of the
support team for bigfooters in a lot of ways because
I have won myself. I've got a wife at home
when I'm out in the woods, and I know she
worries about me sometime and whatnot. And your mother is
one of these sort of casualties of the bigfoot thing
as well in some ways. What kind of a consequence

(17:36):
or what kind of weight did your mother carry because
of your father's for lack of a better term, obsession
with the subject.

Speaker 4 (17:44):
Well, she had a lot of worry, you know, I
can tell you that much. She always worried about him
and whether he was okay or you know, what he
was doing, or when he was going to come home.
And there was financial burden as well. I mean, when
you spend three or four days a week away from
home in the mountains, that's three or four days a
week that you're not working, you know. And so we

(18:04):
didn't have money growing up, really, and there wasn't much
funding for bigfoot research. And when my grandmother died and
left her home to my mother, my parents sold it
to support my dad's bigfoot research, you know. And he
spent a lot of time working a night job so
he could get off work at you know, four or

(18:26):
five o'clock in the morning and go directly to the
mountains and then come home and get what sleep he could,
and you know, go back to work and turn around
and go back to the mountains the next day. But
you know my mom even dealing with all that, My
mother was great and she's actually, if you don't know this,
responsible for at least ninety nine percent of the documentation

(18:50):
that was done on any of my dad's evidence, with
the exception of his map. That's the one thing she
never touched was his map in the garage. And I
know that, Cliff. You have that out at the Bigfoot
Center there and boring. Now it's on display. It's lovely.
But every photograph we have that is documented is my
mother's handwriting. Every letter of correspondence that was written to

(19:13):
anybody else was typed by my mother. Displayed boards that
were put together for you know, mall setups or going
to any type of meeting or convention where he was
speaking was done so by my mother. She worked tirelessly
to catalog this stuff. And my father gets credit for
doing a really good job of documenting his evidence for

(19:35):
the time period that he was a researcher because he
was one of the ones that was best at it.
But if you want to know the truth, it was
my mother that did that, you know, and my dad
wanted her to, but she stuck by it, and she
did it, and she stuck with him through thick and
thin and through you know, taking criticism and being the
wife of the crazy person and all this stuff. You know,

(19:58):
she deserves a lot of credit. And I actually I
have one picture of her in the field. It's going
to be in the book. It's the only one I've got.
She's actually out there standing in the field, you know,
attempting to do some type of research. But you know
that wasn't her thing. And but she certainly was active
behind the scenes. And we owe her a debt of gratitude,

(20:19):
uh for the documentation that she did. Otherwise a lot
of this stuff would still be a mystery.

Speaker 3 (20:25):
Thank you, missus Freeman.

Speaker 2 (20:27):
Yeah, thank you missus Freeman. Absolutely, and of course thanks
to all the support teams of all these bigfoot weirdos
out in the field. You know, whether it's my wife
Melissa or Karita, the angel that helps Bobo out.

Speaker 3 (20:38):
She's a very fairly tolerable system.

Speaker 2 (20:41):
Oh please, She's an angel of love so much.

Speaker 3 (20:45):
She barely tolerates my big footing.

Speaker 2 (20:48):
Oh okay, well, I've had I understand that. I thought
I thought she man, you could barely tolerate her. And
I said, well, my god, Bobo.

Speaker 4 (20:53):
Something else you know, to to just add to that
that I didn't mention was my entire childhood, my entire life.
My mother was a housewife, she never had a job.
My dad was the sole supporter. She raised children. And
as my dad got older and you know, around I
think it was right around nineteen ninety nineteen ninety one,

(21:15):
as his health started to decline and he wasn't working
as much and he was spending more time out there,
she actually went and she went to community college and
she got a degree, and she went and got a
job as an accountant and was supporting the family pretty
much of that time, which allowed my dad to spend
more time out doing you know, research.

Speaker 2 (21:37):
So did not know that. That's interesting, That's very cool. Actually,
stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bogo.
Will be right back after these messages. So I'm back
in nineteen eighty two when your dad had his first

(21:57):
sighting there in the Mill Creek water shed. From what
I've read and what I believe I think I know,
is that he was basically one of these outriders, somebody
on a horseback kind of patrolling the watershed circumference to
make sure that nobody is going in there because the
whole area is off limits. He had his siding thing
crossed the road, he smelled it, he saw it, he
cast a couple prints there. Rumor has it, and I'd

(22:19):
like some clarification on this, please, Rumor has it that
your dad was fired. Is that true or not? Well,
first of.

Speaker 4 (22:27):
All, he was a boundary patrolman, so and he was
not on horseback. He had a service vehicle, and he
was responsible for twenty five square miles of the watershed. Now,
to answer your question, no, he was not fired. That
is one of those nasty rumors. My dad actually quit

(22:48):
working for the Forest Service. He was demoted to a
desk job. He was not allowed to go out and
drive around or walk around anymore because they did not
want him looking for Bigfoot or saying anything else about Bigfoot.
And had taken some public criticism from the Forest Service.

(23:09):
And as I had mentioned earlier, my grandmother had passed
away and left a house to my mom, and that
was in Camus, Washington, which is where we were from.
And it was a really good excuse to say I'm
out of here and you know, go start a new
life someplace else, and you know, as we know, that
didn't last very long.

Speaker 2 (23:29):
Yeah, he would go back to the woods in Walla.
Walla thought he even while he lived in Camus, he would.

Speaker 4 (23:36):
Yeah, when we moved back to Camus, they actually my
parents opened a deli and smoked meat shop downtown Camus, Washington.
It was called Freeman's and it was it was pretty successful.
But yeah, he couldn't stay away. You know, he saw
something that changed him. And every weekend he was going back.
And this is you know, between nineteen eighty three and

(23:58):
nineteen eighty six, every weekend, every chance he got, he
was leaving and he was going. And he wasn't working
for anyone at the time except himself because it was
my parents' business. And so he was, you know, leaving,
and he was leaving. My mom and my older brother
you know, who was sixteen seventeen at the time, were
pretty much you know, kind of running the you know,

(24:19):
their their deli there. But yeah, he would disappear. I
didn't know any better. I was too young. I really
wasn't sure what was going on except you know, Dad
was gone. He was he was doing this, he was
doing that, he was working, but he was going back
to Walla Walla. Often he would take my older brother
with him and he was hunting bigfoot and that time
is what he was doing. And that's why we don't

(24:41):
have a whole lot of casts or tracks that had
come out of that time period, because that's not what
he was interested in. He was spending a lot of
time in the Winnaha to Candid Wilderness and he was
going to kill one. I mean that that's what he
was there for.

Speaker 3 (24:54):
What caliber rival was he karen? For that job?

Speaker 4 (24:57):
He had a three fifty six Norma Magnum rifle. Oh
or yeah, it's a Fari gun. So, oh my god.

Speaker 2 (25:06):
Got so much has been made out of the professional
tracker Joel Harden's work on your dad's track find because
he was brought in after in June of nineteen eighty two,
at the very end of June, because there were two
track finds over that time. Not only was it was
your dad's initial sighting there, but at six days I
think six days later you're the expert, you probably correct me,

(25:28):
please if I'm wrong. Six days later there was another
track find there of the famous dermals, the footprints that
gave that animal its name, and Joel Harden was brought
in to check them out, and he deemed them fake.
And of course most people, I'm sure most of our
listeners are aware of this because they have read doctor
Krantz's book bigfoot Sasquatch Evidence, or the first edition which

(25:51):
is big Footprints. And of course, if you're one of
our listeners who has not read this, you really ought
to read doctor Krantz's book. That's kind of required reading
for bigfooters. In my opinion, it seems to me that
a lot of the things that Joel said about those
tracks why they were fake, well, it seems largely due
to the fact that Joel was an experienced man tracker

(26:15):
and sasquatches are not humans because the things I mean,
I just read read the chapter last night in preparation
for this interview. And when I say the chapter, I
not only read doctor Ranz's chapter, but I also read
the chapter in Joel's book himself, his own book critiquing
these particular tracks, and I got to say, like, I know,
I mean no disrespect to mister Harden, of course, but

(26:37):
I'm not very impressed with his reasons as to why
these tracks are fake. And if I may, I'm going
to read just something out of the book here, out
of Joel's book, so supposedly in his own words, although
he may have had a ghostwriter. It says here the
Forest Service added that some somehow, in the three weeks
after the sighting, ABC, NBC, and CBS, all the television

(27:00):
networks at the time, had gotten winto the Bigfoot siding
and they had all filed a core to action in
Washington to force the Forest Service to permit them access
into the Mill Creek watershed. And then he goes on,
and this is the key sentence here, the Forest Service
had been given forty eight hours to answer the injunction
by coming up with evidence that reported the sighting was

(27:22):
in fact a hoax. And that's why Joel Harden was
called in by his boss to come look at these footprints.
That sounds a little biased to begin with. And when
you combine that with a sentence out of doctor Krantz's book,
and I have that right here. See this is on
page seventy nine of doctor Krantz's book. Talking about Harden,

(27:43):
he says he judged them the tracks to be fakes.
In fact, he made this pronouncements before he even looked
at the tracks. According to three Forest service employees who
told me overhearing this, so that doesn't bode well. And
of course he does have spec reasons, and one of
the reasons I thought was odd is that the dramaticglythics

(28:03):
were too In fact, the tracks were too perfect. They
were too good there for their fake. He also commented
that there was no straddle in them, but that's a
known feature of sasquatch trackways. He said, it would be
impossible for a creature of this size to have no
to have no straddle like that, but yet at the
same time, that's exactly what evolution would eventually come up

(28:26):
with because of their mass. Doctor Krantz goes into that
subject quite quite a bit when he talks about the
gait of the Patterson Gimlin film creature, because if there
was straddle, and of course strattle is a distance left
and right of a center line of the trackway. If
there was significant straddle, an animal that size would be
wobbly back and forth, so you would expect a compact

(28:47):
center of gravity, therefore a very little straddle, if any,
in their trackway. And that's exactly what he saw, and
that's one of the reasons he thought was fake. He
also goes on to say that for a human to
do that, it's next to impossible, but he did say
it could be possible with practice. Does that imply that

(29:07):
your dad actually practice walking like that and he knew
what the gates of an animal of that size would be,
would be necessary, you know, we would have to have
And there's so many of the things in there just
don't make quite much quite sense to me, you know.
So what did your what did your dad? Do you
remember your dad saying anything at all about mister Harden.

Speaker 4 (29:26):
Well, you are correct. June sixteenth is when the durs
were found.

Speaker 2 (29:32):
Okay, so Joel was there a few days later. I
guess he's probably there in the nineteenth because he does
say he saw the track three days later, right el Elk.

Speaker 4 (29:39):
Wallow was where they were found in The common misconception
is that these were found by my dad by himself,
and that's not true. He was with another Foreign Service employee,
a man by the name of Bill Epic. They found
these tracks together, Epoh Epic, And they found these tracks
together at the bottom of Low Canyon, a place called
Elk Wallow. Was June sixteenth, nineteen eighty two. Yeah, yeah,

(30:03):
mister Harding comes in, and I have nothing against mister Harding.
I'm sure he's great at his job as a man tracker,
you know, for the border patrol. But you know, like
you were saying, you got to look at the facts.
He's a government employee that's brought in by government agency
that does not want to allow the media access to
the watershed. He's brought in to say that the tracks

(30:24):
are fake. First and foremost. Mister Harding also is not
a believer in bigfoot, So any set of tracks that
you put in front of him, I'm sure he's going
to tell you that they're fake. Mister Harding also has
no experience at all tracking any type of bigfoot before
or even higher primate, so you know, when you start

(30:44):
adding it up, he was kind of in over his head,
you know a little bit. And I also believe there's
something in that book about sticking a straw three feet
into the mud or something where one of these footprints
were well.

Speaker 2 (30:55):
Actually, apparently, according to mister Harden's account, is that while
they were amining this trackway of eight or possibly nine footprints,
one of the other for service workers at the site
there quote unquote discovered another trackway right up the hill
from them in an elk wallow, and then they all
went to go look at it, and these were about
twelve to twenty four inches into the mud. And then

(31:16):
he decided to shove straw down in it after, you know,
into the bottom of the footprints, to show that the
sasquats had not bottomed out. But it was just an
artificial impression of some sort. But that doesn't make sense
to me either, and I think Krantz addresses that in
his book as well.

Speaker 4 (31:31):
Yeah, that seems odd, you know. But getting back to
your question, Yeah, I actually have a it's kind of funny.
I have a fantastic audio recording of my father talking
about mister Harden that comes through my dad's private audio journals,
and one of the things that he talks about is
that Joel Harden said that these tracks can't be from

(31:53):
a real animal because animals don't have dermal ridges on
the paths of their feet. And my dad goes on
to say that apparently mister Harden failed to realize that
high primemates do indeed have that, and even dogs and
pigs have them on their nose, you know, so it's
not something that's out of the ordinary. But as far

(32:13):
as you know, mister Harden was concerned. You know, dermal
ridges are a human trade and you know, that's what
he's used to tracking, and that's what he's looking for.
And he also, you know, as I said, he has
no experience tracking lightfoot, so he doesn't understand the gate
or you know, the anatomy of the foot or you know,
the flexation of the foot, anything like that, or even
what an animal of that size that we would you know,

(32:36):
presume is a primate would be capable of doing.

Speaker 2 (32:40):
Yeah, you know, one of the one of the things
he wrote says that he apparently he says that your
dad admitted to hoaxing stuff at some point. And I
don't think he was talking about the Good Morning America thing,
which we'll get to in a minute here, but he's here.
It says right here on page one forty.

Speaker 3 (32:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (32:57):
Several times between nineteen eighty two, citing at Mill Creek Watershed.
In nineteen ninety four, Paul Freeman was involved in other
bigfoot sightings, including one in which we reported having seen
a family of creatures, including a male, female and offspring.
Local deputies searching the scene of the siding discredited, discredited
the report and confronted Freeman. He admitted to authorities that
he had not only made up the story, but he

(33:19):
had also constructed some feat quote unquote to make tracks
his evidence to validate his siding, and had done so
in previous events. What's that about.

Speaker 4 (33:29):
I don't know what that's about. First of all, it
can't be another siding in nineteen ninety three or nineteen
ninety four. He didn't have any sidings in nineteen ninety
three or ninety four. His last sighting was nineteen ninety
two at Dduk Spread.

Speaker 2 (33:42):
Did he ever see a family? Did he ever see
a family at all? I don't remember a siding of
a family of bigfoots, right, So, you.

Speaker 4 (33:48):
Know we're starting off with incorrect date information in the
first place. The only instance I can think of that
he might be referring to would be the deduct footy
where someone later in the year of two thousand, Doug
Hicheck discovered what might be a baby in that film,
and my dad thought that there were, you know, two

(34:10):
adults in the film. But my father never claimed that
he didn't even know anything about a supposed baby or
offspring in the film until that was brought to him
in my two thousand and one. So I don't know
anything about that. I know that there's no sightings in
ninety three, there's no sidings in ninety four. I seriously,
seriously doubt first of all, that he was ever confronted

(34:32):
by any sheriff's deputies. First of all, I just don't
see that happening. Secondly, he knew them all in the
area and knowing my dad. And I'm laughing because I
can envision his interaction with them. He you know, would
have told them And you can bleep me out here
if you need to kiss his ass and prove it.

(34:54):
It's exactly what he would have said in a situation
like that. So I don't know where this comes from.
And you know Hardin's book, this little section. I've seen
this before, I've read it. I've had some people throw
it up in my face. But I can tell your point.
You know, for a fact, he never admitted to anyone
hoaxing anything. Number one. Number two, if he had even

(35:16):
to the sheriff's deputies, man, it would have been all
over the papers. He was big news in Walla Walla
at that time. Like that would have been everywhere, it would
have been in the news, you know, and that certainly
like didn't happen. So yeah, I'm not sure. I don't
even know where that comes from. But I would actually
go as far as to say that that is complete fabrication.

Speaker 2 (35:40):
Yeah, or at least so another rumor that he picked
up and he printed. Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and
Beyond with Cliff and Bogo will be right back after
these messages.

Speaker 4 (35:57):
The other thing that surrounds this event that we haven't
touched on is another rumor. As I'm sure you know,
there's a rumor that renee to Hindon had already spoiled
mister Harden before he even got through the tracks, you know.
But again rumor, and as I said, we don't deal in.

Speaker 2 (36:13):
Rumors, Yeah, yeah, yeah, rumors or rumors, man, I'd rather
deal with the evidence. And that's why I focus on
the evidence and put less faith in what people say
for the most part, you know, less they were there
and or were witnesses of it, you know, let's get
let's jump right into the film, because that's besides footprint
casts and some other like handprint casts and stuff, which
we should also talk about. But the film is one

(36:35):
of the things that your dad is most known for,
but very few people realize that that was the second
time he filmed one. So let's talk a little bit
about that first film that very few people have seen.
And even you gave me a copy of it, and
I still have not even sat down and gotten deep
into it, by the way, So I apologize for not
doing my homework on that level. But I have watched it.
I think you watched it with me. He might have

(36:56):
been watching me with me.

Speaker 4 (36:57):
We watched it together. Yeah, we talked about it a
little bit.

Speaker 2 (37:00):
Yeah, yeah, but with that very interesting stuff, I mean,
it wasn't a great film. But anyway, you tell us
about that first film before we get into the big one.

Speaker 4 (37:08):
Yeah, it's it's filmed at a location called Green Peak,
I believe. I believe it's nineteen ninety two, so I
think it's the same year as the Dad of Spring Footage.

Speaker 2 (37:19):
Actually I remember it being April of ninety two. I
could be red.

Speaker 4 (37:21):
Roll in April of ninety two. Yeah, and the camera
turns on. He's still in his truck, he's driving down
the road and he sees what he believes to be
a sasquatch and the camera turns on as he's getting
out of the truck and he's, you know, super excited,
and he slams his card door and I believe his
exclamation or whatever is I've been waiting ten years for this.

(37:42):
I think that's what he says. But by the time
he gets the camera up and it's not zoomed in,
of course, and we go back to you know, my
dad just wasn't a technological you know guy, you know,
and anyone who's ever seen that or listened to I
guess that audio for the returned camera if you know
what I'm talking about, you know what I'm talking about.

Speaker 2 (38:04):
Yeah, that's also on Todd Prescott's Sasquatch Archive website.

Speaker 4 (38:07):
Him and the gentleman that he's with they can't figure
out how to turn the camera off. Okay, No, he was.

Speaker 2 (38:12):
He was an absolutely terrible cameraman. Nothing personal against your dad.

Speaker 4 (38:16):
He was not good with technology. He was not educated
in that way, and he didn't ssume the camera in
you know, at Greenpeak in this first video, and you
can see there's a sasquatch, you know, and it appears
to be I don't know, sixty seventy feet away maybe
something like that, maybe longer, but the angle of it

(38:36):
with the road and the trees, it's kind of difficult
to see, and I don't think you can see the
entire body. But what's interesting with that one is that
it stops completely and turns around to look at him
for a couple of seconds. It just stops, and then
it continues on its way, and he ends up, you know,
following it and following some of the footprints and we'll

(38:59):
talk about those in a second, and it ends up
going in very dark, very heavy, heavy forest, and he
kind of gets spooked a little bit and he isn't
sure if he wants to follow it in there, you know.
But I know one of the things that you and
I talked about, and we'll have to look at it
a little more in depth and a little further. And
I've actually been trying to look at some stills from

(39:20):
that video is that I believe it's a different individual
than the one that he gets in August in Ddux spread.
It looks like it's probably a different bigfoot, and it
looks like it's probably an individual that we know is
in the area from other footprints that we have from
the past.

Speaker 2 (39:36):
It is an interesting video. Of course, he did not
do a good job well filming it because of the
distance and the circumstances. And you know, I'm not going
to complain about what he did because it's better than
anything I've gotten, but at the end of the day,
it's kind of a blat at the end of the day.
So what was your dad's What were your dad's comments
on that piece of footage.

Speaker 4 (39:55):
Well, he was super upset actually, because he thought when
he took the video that you know, this is it.
I've got it, you know. And then I remember he
came home and you know, plugged that old camera into
the TV so you know, you could you could watch it,
and here's this tiny little thing that you can't even
see because he made a mistake with the camera and

(40:16):
hadn't zoomed in. And I think that one of the
mistakes he made, I think of a big mistake is
that he slammed the door of his truck when he
got out of it instead of leaving it open. And
I think that may have spooked that animal or caused
it to take a different trajectory. Not that it hadn't
heard him driving down the road, you know, but I
think a loud noise like that probably wasn't helpful, you know,

(40:39):
either in that situation, but you know he was upset.
But you know, it's you know, it is what it is.
And I know that it had some slight local media coverage,
you know, nothing grand, nothing like dtave.

Speaker 3 (40:53):
Tad, you know.

Speaker 4 (40:54):
And the other thing that bothers me about that is
is I know what people say, you know, and I
know what people are going to say about that is it's, ah,
he's got two videos, you know, and like, you know,
I've been doing this my whole life and I've never
even seen one, And how can this guy get two videos?

Speaker 3 (41:09):
You know?

Speaker 4 (41:09):
And you go back to the quote that I heard
earlier this week from somebody else, is you know, Paul
Freeman's either the luckiest bigfooter that ever lived or he's
a complete fraud, you know, And you know it's it's
neither actually, And you know, Cliff, you can attest to
this as well, because you're educating on the subject. But
you have the right guy who has the right skill set,

(41:31):
which is a trained hunter and tracker, who has the
right area, which is a hotbed, which is what the
Blue Mountains were, you know, especially at that time, and
he has the time to devote to do it, you
know you're going to get more results. And you know,
one of my dad's quotes actually is that you know,
if you go fishing once a year, you may not

(41:53):
catch anything, but if you go fishing every day, you're
going to get something.

Speaker 2 (41:56):
Yeah, And I think the right spot has everything in
the world to do with it. The Bluff Creek and
the sixties, they were there. There's a group of them
in that specific area, and that's why they got so
much stuff. The Blue Mountains at that time, there were
a group of them moving around in there quite often,
and they got good stuff. I've got a spot over
in Mountain National Forests that have yielded I think at

(42:16):
least four tracks in the last year and a half.
It's the right area. So we're hitting it hard. And
you know, money Maker commented on this, if you read
his expedition page, he comments that like, yeah, everywhere might
look good for Bigfoot, but they're not everywhere. They're in
certain areas and that's the truth. That is the truth.
It's even to the point now and I've said it

(42:37):
before in the podcast when people come in the museum
and they say, yeah, I saw one up so and so,
and I go, oh, yeah, was it on this road?
They go, well, yeah, it was on that road. How
did you know, because that's where everybody else sees them
because they hang out in certain areas. The spot and
the researcher are just part of a perfect storm that
can come together if everything is right. People are willing
to spend the time out there.

Speaker 4 (42:57):
Correct, Yeah, you know, my father had the time to spend.
He made the time to spend. Even if he wouldn't
have had it, he would have made it. You know,
he made the time to spend out there. He knew
the area as well or better than anybody else that's
ever been there, and he was prepared and he knew
what he was doing. And as far as you know,
being a hunter and a tracker goes, he's one of

(43:20):
the best that's ever done that. And I can't think
if anyone, you know, that would even come close to
be better than him. He was kind of the perfect
guy in the perfect spot. People can say whatever they want,
you know, people can past judgment and they can do
all this and they can you know, like I said,
listen to these rumors, but you know, and it's not
just my dad. As we talked about earlier, it's the
Blue Mountains and the Blue Mountain Evidence and all the

(43:41):
people involved in that. They have produced some of the
best footprint and cast evidence that's ever been found. And
all you got to do is.

Speaker 2 (43:49):
Take a look at yeah, and you know, yep, you
can't look at one or two casts. I'd like to
make that perfectly clear. I will be so bold to
even say that if you have less than a dozen
casts in your collection, you probably don't know very much
about casts, because you have to be able to see
a variety of casts and a variety of toe positions
and flexations and all that sort of stuff to really
start wrapping your head around what a sasquatch foot is
and what it's capable of doing. You can't just look

(44:12):
at a half a dozen casts and think, oh, yeah,
I know about bigfootprints. I've got six, Well that's cute. No,
you need a lot more than that and improve in
the putting bows. How many casts do you have?

Speaker 3 (44:22):
Sixty or seventy?

Speaker 2 (44:24):
There you go, there you go, and yeah, so Bobo's
an unsung hero of casts and recognizing solid casts in
the ground and stuff. But yeah, so you have to
have a lot of these things. You just simply have
to have a lot of these things to really understand
what's going on. But you know, let's fast forward a
few months and let's talk about the most famous Freeman
footage is out there, which is the d Duck Springs footage.

(44:45):
And you have such interesting insight into this because you
knew what your dad was up to at the time,
You knew what happened on that day, and you were
even the first person of your family at least that
he spoke to after the footage was obtained. So fill
us in, tell us the story of the de Duck footage.

Speaker 4 (45:00):
Uh, Deduct. Yeah, well, the week that that was filmed,
and my dad had been to Deduct every single day,
he knew we're coming there. Well, it was a it
was a hot summer. A lot of the water sources
had dried up. You know, hot dry summers are not
uncommon in that area. It's it's that high desert eastern Washington,

(45:21):
you know, but that summer was particularly hot and a
lot of the water sources had dried up. And we
also have in anyone who's ever seen his map, if
you haven't seen it, and go to the North American
big Foot Center and check it out. The area around
De Duck Spring is by far the most active area
for Bigfoot evidence in you know, that Blue Mountain region

(45:43):
right there. Year after year after year, you have evidence
coming out of there. You know, he he knew they
were there, he knew they were getting water, and he
was going up there every day. And now my dad
was going. You know, he's working nights. At the time,
he was you know, getting off work about four o'clock
in the morning or so, he was driving up to
De Ducks about an hour and a half drive from

(46:03):
where we lived. He was getting there around six o'clock
in the morning. He would sit in his vehicle, he
would watch the pond and then you know, eventually as
it got lighter, he would get out. He'd go look
for tracks and disturbances, you know, around the pond's edge,
you know, stuff like that. And he was finding some
things here and there, but you know, not not a
whole lot of a whole lot of luck. And then

(46:26):
you know, on the weekends he was getting up and
he was going earlier because you know, my dad, one
of the mistakes that he made, and yes, I'll say
it's a mistake. One of the mistakes he made is
that he had it in his brain that they were
coming before he got there, and that they were they
were getting water and they were taking care of their needs,
and then they were leaving, and that they had figured

(46:46):
him out and they knew, you know, about what time
he was going to come, and so he thought that
he was missing them. It turns out that that, you know,
that was that was a mistake. Now what's really interesting
in what kind of leads us to the footage is
actually something that was completely by chance, and that was
that the night before he got the footage, which was Wednesday,

(47:09):
and that was August nineteenth, nineteen ninety two, before he
went to work that evening, he got a phone call
from my sister and I just want to say, you know,
my sister passed away this June in a motorcycle accident.
So you know, we're all going to miss her and
may she rest in peace. But she has an integral
part in the story of my dad's footage. And anyway,

(47:31):
he got a phone call from my sister and her
car would not start and she had to get to
work in the morning and give my nephew to daycare.
And you know all that stuff, and you know, she said, Dad,
can you come over and fix my car? And so
my dad said, yeah, you know, of course, of course
I will. And he went to work that night. He
had no intentions of going to de duck Spring the

(47:52):
next day, none at all. He went to work, he
got off work, he came home, he got a little sleep,
he got up in the morning, he went and got
his cup of coffee at the Flying Jay restaurant, which
is where you know he always went, and he drove
over to my sister's house and got her car running
so she could go. And the best estimation of time

(48:13):
I have, and it's it's kind of debatable. Some people
say he got to d Duckt around nine am. I
don't think that's true. I think he headed to de
Ducked around nine am. So I think he left my
sister's house around nine am is kind of the way
I interpret this. But anyway, he left my sister's house
and he was going home, and then halfway home he
just thought, well, what the hell, I'll drive up there

(48:34):
and maybe there's some footprints, you know, or something I
could find. And what ended up happening was he ended
up getting to d ducked anywhere between three, two, four
and a half hours later than when he was normally
showing up. And like I said, the mistake he made

(48:55):
was he thought that they were coming before him and leaving,
and that's not true. They were already there and were
watching him, and when he was leaving, then they were
going and they were getting their water. And I'm absolutely
certain of this. And when he showed up late that day,
he surprised them and he walked right up on one
too or possibly too. Yeah, I mean, you know that

(49:17):
that's something we're looking into. And I have my own
theories on that, and we'll get into that here in
a minute. Well, you know, in my dad's own words,
he thinks that when he drove up, when he when
it heard the car, and when he drove up and parked,
he thinks that he startled it. That it was probably
at the pond getting water, because the tracks that are

(49:37):
there look very, very fresh, and he makes a comment
in the video that wow, these are you know, these
are fresh. So his description is that he thinks it
was at the pond. It's Waldinen Pond, by the way.
If anyone doesn't know that it's not actually De Duck
Spring Walden Pond at the Dedux trailhead. Dedux Spring is
this little tiny spring that runs out of the ground
that feeds the pond. But anyway, he pulls up in

(49:59):
his car, he startles his animal and it takes off
and it goes back up the trail and it goes
to the right, and as he's looking at the prince
and he gets his camera and he's filming these prints,
and then he kind of hears it in the brush
for whatever reason, and again we'll talk about this, but
for whatever reason, it decides to cut back and go
to the left and cross him and head for the

(50:23):
watershed boundary, which is that way. Not only the watershed boundary,
but there's also you've been there recently, Cliff. It's what
about twenty yards after it goes off camera in his footage,
there's about a fifteen foot ravine that drops off into
the spring. But yeah, so you know, a little luck,
a little chance, a little you know, preparedness, because you know,

(50:47):
he had the right spot, and he had the right
time of year, and he had the right reason for
them being there. He knew they were coming. He was
just missing them because of something and I think that
he was probably underestimating, you know, their ability to to
watch him and know him and know when he was

(51:08):
leaving and then make their approach, you know, after the
safety of him being gone, instead of taking the chance
of you know, just coming out without seeing him.

Speaker 5 (51:18):
You know.

Speaker 4 (51:18):
But yeah, the fact that he was late, certainly, it
is what leads to it leads to him getting the footage.
You know. Another misconception, though, I just want to clear up,
is everyone seems to think, for some reason that this
is the first time he rolled up with a video camera,
you know, and he's filming, and it is completely not true.
I have hours of footage of him filming just tracks
in the ground, or he's talking to somebody else, or

(51:41):
you know, he's casting prints, or my dog's running around,
and there's all these things. And he was reusing these
eight millimeter magnetic tapes because we couldn't afford to buy
new ones, and so sometimes we have different events that
are on the same tape. And one of the things
that we have would Deduct is we have a casting

(52:02):
of juvenile prints at Gifford Peak on the deduct master tape,
and they happened to come before the deduct footage, And
what has happened in the past is people have tried
to make the connection that he was casting those juvenile
prints and then he walks over to the pond and
then he gets his footage, and people have tried to

(52:22):
use this to say, yeah, look, I told you there's
a juvenile in that footage. Well, it's not true that
he did that, because those are two completely separate events.
The juvenile castings at Gifford Peak were done months before
the Deduct footage. It just so happens to be on
the same master tape because he was recording over other stuff.
What he recorded over my nephew's second birthday party to

(52:45):
get the Deduct footage. That's the other thing that was
on the tape. You know, if that shows you how
important they're the Bigfoot stuff was. But you know, again
for the last time, there were no juvenile prints that
were cast at Deduct. Those are from different peak. Those
two things are separate events. They are not connected. I
wish people would stop showing them as a connection to

(53:08):
try to prove a point.

Speaker 2 (53:10):
Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and
Bogo will be right back after these messages.

Speaker 4 (53:22):
Here's what I think happened is I believe he pulls
up in the car, he startles it. It goes up
the trail and it goes to the right and he,
you know, he's looking at the tracks and he falls
it up there and he gets too close, and I
think that it comes back out to the left and
it shoots him that look. And I don't think that's
a friendly look. I think that's a warning because if

(53:44):
you notice when it does that, it's a fast head step,
you know, and it's not a slow like I'm gonna
look at you. It's a seeing now you're too close.

Speaker 2 (53:52):
Yeah, kind of like well like like what Roger Patterson
described when he saw that sasquatch look at him and
give him that look like an umpire. He said that
the giving to look one more screw up and you're
out of the game.

Speaker 4 (54:02):
Exactly right. And then it keeps going to the left
and it hides behind the tree and then it pops
out and it goes about twenty yards and it drops
down that ravine and it moves along the ravine and
it pops back out to get that baby.

Speaker 2 (54:18):
I disagree with that. And then part of me for
interrupting and The reason I say that is because you know,
you very generously gave us access to the original tape,
and we uploaded the original tape, which has none of
the distortions and none of the interlacings that all the
other every other copy has on there. And the baby
the baby pick up, if that's indeed what it is,
is before we see the sasquatch disappear, and you can

(54:40):
actually see the top of the sasquatch as it's down
or going down into the ravine, and that is later
on in the film. I don't think it came back
out to get the baby.

Speaker 4 (54:49):
I think it drops into the ravine and comes back
up to get the baby and then goes back down
into the ravine.

Speaker 2 (54:54):
Yeah, I don't think that's the case. I think it
went down in the ravine after it got the baby.
But what we can we can get the film out
together and take a look at some point.

Speaker 4 (55:01):
But that that's kind of my like interpretation is that,
you know, after it disappears, I think it makes a
beeline for that and moves along that and it comes
back up and grabs her and or grabs it whatever
and goes back down. But maybe not, you know, like
I said that that's my thought process on you know,
what might be happening there.

Speaker 2 (55:18):
Well, I will say that there is a cut in
the film, so we don't know the time laps there,
so maybe you are right, we really don't know. And
unfortunately our dad's not around it, right.

Speaker 4 (55:27):
And I wasn't there obviously, But that's at least I guess.
I would say that's my thought process on what I
think it's doing. And of course there I go again
saying I don't like when people assume that they would
know what a bigfoot would do and then I just
did it, but you know, trying to piece it together.
That's that's my impression. But you made me right as well.

(55:48):
And it may be moving not down the ravine until
after it supposedly will say for right now grabs that baby.
But regardless of that, regardless of whether you when I
are right, we end up in the ravine at the end.
And I think solely the reason that it even showed
itself to him, it walks in front of him, it

(56:09):
turns its head is because it's trying to distract him
from something, and it's trying to hide something. And I
think that what it's trying to hide. Is that baby
that's back there that it goes and gets. And I
think if that baby wouldn't have been there, and it
wouldn't have been so far away from it, he would
have never got that video.

Speaker 2 (56:24):
Yeah, very likely sasquatch, just because you know, to the
rights to the camera, right, there's a big slope and
you can go uphill and disappear into the trees. There
must have been a reason it was hanging around that
very well. Could have been that the infant in the
area to.

Speaker 4 (56:37):
Be a reason. And if there's an infant there, it
gives perfect reason for it to have that behavior, you know.
But you're right. There are some strange things in the
newspaper that follow this event. One of them actually kind
of backs the possibility of having a baby. And that
is my dad's account of what he calls the second sasquatch,

(56:59):
which is the one that plucks the baby up. Now,
I don't think it's the second one. I think it's
the same one, and so I don't think there were
two there. I think that you're correct, and he overshot
it and it came out in a different spot than
he expected it to be, and so he thought that
it was a second bigfoot, but I think it is

(57:20):
the same one that walks in front of the camera,
and I've referred to her as you know, big Jill
or whatever. But I think it's the same sasquatch. But
when he sees that one for the second time, there's
a description that's given in a newspaper that it turned
to look at him and he could see what he
thought was a deformity on the side of its head

(57:42):
and neck, that stump stuck out like a lump, like
it was deformed. I think that that's the baby on
her back, and I think that what he's seen from
one hundred feet away or however far was through the
trees right there. I think it's the baby's head that
he's seen that looked looks like a hunchbacker, looks like
a deformality. The other account we have, like you said,

(58:05):
is that you know, he hit out in the tree
had fallen down and the roots had come up, and
they you know, dug out like a little den and
he hid down in there for up to two hours,
I guess, is whatever the estimation is, because they had
gotten somewhat aggressive and he had heard some vocalizations that

(58:27):
they were making and he thought that maybe they were
behind him, following him, and so he got a little
nervous and he ditched himself out in there. I think
that up to two hours is probably not correct, you know,
if this is what happened. I think that, you know,
he didn't have a watch, he never wore one, There
was no cell phones. His camera which wasn't even on,

(58:50):
didn't even have like a timestamp on it. And I
think that if you were under stress or shock or
scared in that situation, you would have no concept of time.
And also we know this as well because about the
time that he arrives home later. I don't think it
can be two hours. I think that if this happened,
and maybe it was maybe thirty.

Speaker 2 (59:10):
Minutes, which was really seem like two hours if you're
scared out of your mind, which.

Speaker 4 (59:14):
Would seemed why two hours if you're scared out of
your mind. And I have an account of him saying
that he was in a cold sweat, you know, basically
getting ready to speak to the man upstairs and say like,
you know, hey, let me out of this thing. You know,
we also have my dad saying that during this event
that there was a voice inside of him that said,
that's it. You don't need to bother these animals anymore.

(59:36):
You got close enough. Maybe you just need to leave
them alone, you know. And whatever that voice was, or
whatever you want to call it, you know, it's something
that I've heard him talk about more than once. It
is having that feeling during this whole episode. But we
do have a little confusion on the time, you know,
and we know, or at least I think, I know,

(59:56):
that there weren't two of them. I think that you're right,
and he overshot that and he thought there was two,
and so he therefore thought the other one was behind
him when it wasn't. And I think he started to
get a little scared at that point because you know,
if you're dealing with the wild animal, that's one thing,
but if you're dealing with two of them, then the
odds of the unknown happening goes up, right, and especially

(01:00:18):
with the young you know, if there's a young one involved,
you know, then you're in real danger. So I think that,
you know, it scared him a little bit. I think
that his timeframe was off. And I also think, and
again nothing against my dad, you know, but he was
a big, tough guy, he was one of those guys, macho,
tough guy, and I have this feeling that it scared

(01:00:41):
him a little bit and that embarrassing, and that's you know,
maybe that like I hit out for two hours, you know,
thaying was kind of a little overshot to cover up
for that embarrassment, you know, And that's just me being
honest and what I feel may have happened.

Speaker 2 (01:00:55):
Well, sure, yeah, I think that's very reasonable. So the
video got a lot of attention, of course, and it
even threw the attention of national television, which I think
is a good segue into speaking about the Good Morning
America thing. Why don't you tell us about that? Because
that has caused a lot of just damage to your
father's reputation and it seemed to be a total hit job.

(01:01:17):
I mean, Thomas, tell us about that.

Speaker 4 (01:01:19):
God, I'm surprising with this long without talking about it.
I'm so sick of hearing about Good Morning America. But yeah,
let's dig it, let's just put it in the ground
some more.

Speaker 3 (01:01:27):
So.

Speaker 4 (01:01:28):
Yeah, nineteen eighty seven. Some people always think it's early
nineties for some reason, but it's not. In nineteen eighty seven,
my father goes on Good Morning America, with West Summerland
and Reneda Hendon and Mike Dennett who's a skeptic and
gets a real hit job actually from the network. And
you know, it's kind of a satire piece from the beginning.

(01:01:49):
They're just kind of making fun of bigfooters, but the
real damage in portion, you know, comes into a real slick,
just hatchet job at it that they do on my
dad when they asked him a question and he tries
to answer it honestly, and you know, the question they
ask is, you know, have you ever made fake footprints?
And my dad's just being transparent and he's being honest,
and he says, yeah, I've made fake footprints. I've made

(01:02:11):
them in my garden at home, and I'm you know,
trying to you know, compare to them with what I'm finding,
and you know, see if this is something that a
man could do. And you know, in my father's defense,
he was doing it for research purposes and scientific purposes,
and he was trying to eliminate any possibility that somebody

(01:02:32):
else was doing this, and they were they were fooling him,
you know. But what we get in the episode when
it airs is you know, the skeptic saying, well, we
know there's at least one person who's made fake footprints,
and then it just cuts to my dad saying, yes
I have, and then, you know, as his voice starts
to rise because he's gonna expand on that answer, it

(01:02:54):
just cuts off to him looking at a piece of
bark that's got scratch marks in it, you know, and
telling the guy, yeah, he's a real So they didn't
even include his full answer. All you get to see
on there is him saying, yes, I've made fake footprints,
and you know, honestly, it's a black cloud man that
has been over his head for thirty some years and

(01:03:15):
it never goes away, and everyone likes to throw it up.
You know, Oh the footage is fake. He admitted it
on TV. You know, no he didn't. You know that
was Good Morning America or oh this is fake. You know,
he admitted it. He's a hoaxer. He admitted it. He
never admitted to anything except trying to do some experiments
to make him a better researcher. And he got stabbed

(01:03:38):
in the back. And you know, it's man, I've been
fighting this for a long time, but I wish people
would realize that there's an agenda there and realized that
there were people like me who were present for that.
And Jonathan Summerland was there as well. He can tell
you the same story like he was there when this
was recorded. You know, we're not the only ones, but
the people that know no. But you know, I would

(01:04:00):
like the air cleared on that at some point in time.

Speaker 2 (01:04:03):
When I watched that again not too long ago, and
it got my blood boiling a little bit because that guy,
that Michael Dennit guy, he suggested right in front of
West Summerlin that yeah, maybe he didn't know the difference
if he saw a bear or a bigfoot. And Wes Man,
I'm surprised Wes held back and didn't just let loose
on the guy, because Wes is a professional mountain guy,

(01:04:25):
you know, and a professional tracker. He is hired to
track people. Yeah, and to say that in front of
somebody is such a level of disrespect. It just drove
me nuts watching that. And of course you've had to
live with that, that dark cloud, as you said too.
So it's a curse upon all the Blue mountains and.

Speaker 4 (01:04:43):
I've had to live with it, you know. And it's
the good goes with the bad, you know, And around
that same time. You know, my dad did a commercial
for Dryers ice cream. It's eighties ice cream on the
East Coast and Dryers you know, west of the Mississippi
or whatever. But you know, when he got some fame,
you know, for that, and if you've never seen that,
it's pretty stupid and comical, but it's you know, the

(01:05:05):
most amount of money he ever made for anything he
ever did Bigfoot related in its entire life, including the footage.
So you have, you know, a nationalized scream commercial and
you get some attention, and then you you go on
a show like this and you think that you're going
to get more positive attention, and you know, they do
something like that to you, and then you have to
try to explain to everybody for the rest of your life,

(01:05:26):
you know why this happened, and then the rest of
your evidence, you know, gets thrown out and you know,
put in the garbage. But you know, one of the
things that it kind of eats me as well is
when people would imply, you know, that he admitted this
or that he's a hoaxer. They're not only implying that
about him, but then they're implying everybody in the blue

(01:05:47):
Mountain evidence as either being in on it or being
too stupid to know any better. And now you're talking
about West Summerland and you're talking about David Bean, and
you're talking about Bill Lowry dark Addington, and you're talking
about Grover Krantz, and we all know that Grover Krantz
is the smartest guy in that room, you know. So
it's just, yeah, it's it's one of those things. I've

(01:06:09):
lived with it for you know, forty years, so you know,
I'll continue to live with it, or you know, hopefully
one of these days people will actually take the time
to look at the evidence and not listen to the rumors.

Speaker 5 (01:06:23):
Yeah, that's ky just frustrating. I mean, just that'd be
so just tearing your dad called the liar over and
over and over. It's just got to be infuriating.

Speaker 4 (01:06:32):
Well, it is, you know, every time you go on YouTube,
every time you go to a social media site that
has to deal with Bigfoot, every time his footage just shown,
every time his name pops up, Paul Freeman, you have
someone that pops up and says, well, he's a hoaxer
and this is why, and I know it, and it

(01:06:53):
is and it's it's it's hard to not respond to
all of them. And so it's you know, and I was,
you know, and James, when you and I spoke some
years ago, I was sort of active in the Bigfoot
community a little bit, and when I stepped back away
from it because of this stuff and because I just
wasn't ready to handle it. And I've kind of thrown

(01:07:15):
myself back into it with doing a book and whatnot,
and I've done it to myself. But you know, this time,
I have good people around me, and I've got Cliff
and Doug Hycheck and you know, some of these people,
and they're helping me deal with this a little bit better.
But it is incredibly frustrating and not only frustrating on
the level of research, but it's my father. Like it's

(01:07:38):
not someone that I know or I look up to,
like it's my family member. Like it's a man that
raised me and I know what kind of person he is.
And then you hear just constant criticism and it'll beat
you down and it's hard to deal with.

Speaker 2 (01:07:51):
The connection there. Obviously, I mean's your dad. Obviously that's
a huge thing. I was talking to Melissa about this
the other night in regards to the Freeman evidence, I
think of anyone would know that if your dad was
up to some shenanigans, hoaxing things, making fake prints, fake
making fake videos, you the family members would have seen
some sign of it at some point. But that just

(01:08:15):
isn't the case, you would.

Speaker 4 (01:08:17):
Think, right. I mean, we had an entire room. It
was the Bigfoot Room, you know. It was the garage
at one point, and then my parents moved into this
other house and it was the Bigfoot Room, and you
had all the casts, and you had all the stuff
and Harry samples everything, you know, it was in there
in the map and all that. And I remember, you know,
as a kid, it was like this magical place, you know.
And maybe I got to hold a cast, you know

(01:08:38):
if I asked, right, you know, that type of thing
before I got to go out with him, because you know,
I wasn't allowed to go until I was ten years old.
That's the first time I ever got to go look
at any tracks or anything like that. I was deemed
too young, you know before that. And then when I
was fourteen years old, which was nineteen ninety one, I
got to mix plaster and por cast for the first time,

(01:09:00):
which happened to be nineteen ninety one mil Creek Road,
and I'm pretty sure we don't have that cast because
it's probably terrible. But you know, yeah, you would think
that you would notice, right, You would think that something
this complex, that would require this much work to do,
that someone would notice him. But none of the people

(01:09:23):
he worked with, not Wes or Dave or Bill or
Darr or Greg may or Krantz or any of those people,
ever had anything bad to say about him. It's always
the outsiders, you know, that have something bad to say
about him, or it's always the people that have something
that they're losing, like he's finding all this evidence and

(01:09:45):
I'm not, or he's getting this TV show and I
didn't like. Those are the people that always have something
to say about him. It's not the people that worked
closely with him for almost twenty years. They all loved him.
Nobody had anything ever bad to say about him.

Speaker 2 (01:09:58):
You know, you mentioned your family, and the one person
we haven't brought up here is your brother Duaane, because
I've heard skeptics and critics say that that's clearly Duane
in the suit or something like that. What role did
Dwayne have? I mean, I know, he's the one that
took those fantastic photographs that don't get any press at
all from what nineteen eighty eight I think. But he
also went out and did investigations with your father. What

(01:10:20):
sort of role did he have and did he did
he stick with it or did he walk away from it?
And why?

Speaker 4 (01:10:26):
Well, man, he was my dad's like right hand man
for a long time. Yeah, that hurt my dad actually,
you know, no, Dwayne. You know he he's twelve years
older than me, so he was seventeen, you know when
my dad had his first sighting and already an accomplished hunter,
and he got to go out, you know with my
dad and do researchency tracks and all this stuff. And

(01:10:47):
he was with my dad a lot, you know, they
hunted together, they went bigfoot hunting and stuff like that.
And my brother, you know, he told me, I believe
one time, on one occasion, he actually found tracks when
he was by himself and he was just goofing around
like out in the mountains, you know, hanging out, and
it scared him because my dad wasn't there, and he

(01:11:07):
tied tailed out of there and like went to go
get my dad, you know, because he wasn't sure what
to do. But he played a big role, you know,
in the earlier years of my dad's research, and he
got those pictures in eighty eight, you know, and and
there was kind of a rift there, and you know,
they're copyrighted to my dad, and my brother never got
credit for him.

Speaker 3 (01:11:26):
Are they in the new book?

Speaker 4 (01:11:28):
They are going to be in the book, yep. And
one of the things that happened was when my brother
got that the picture, he took two or three pictures
real quick, bom boom boom, and then he took off
running to go get my dad. And they were about
two hundred yards apart. They were deer hunting, and my
dad always said, you know, damn it, Dwayne, if you
had just stay where you were. The bigfoot was headed

(01:11:49):
directly towards my dad, and when my brother got up
to run, he spooked it and it changed the direction
that it was going. And it always was one of those,
you know things that my my dad always said, you know,
damn if you just state.

Speaker 3 (01:12:00):
Where you were.

Speaker 4 (01:12:01):
And I think stuff like that kind of got to
him and hurt his feelings a little bit, to be honest,
And then just the criticism man and the ridicule and
being like the son of the crazy guy, and you know,
trying to go to high school and trying to hold
a job and having everyone you meet be like, oh,
you're Paul Freeman's son, and you know all this stuff.

(01:12:22):
And it was about nineteen ninety actually it was about
two years prior to the deduct footage. And I have
an audio recording of my dad talking about this. Actually,
my brother came to my dad and he said, you know, Dad,
I just don't want to do it anymore. And if
you need me, I'll still go out with you, but
I'm just tired of it. I just don't want to

(01:12:43):
do it. And if you listen to the audio recording, man,
you can just like you can almost like feel the
hurt of my dad's voice when he's like talking about it,
you know, like it just kind of hurt him a
little bit. But man, my brother, he's a private person.

Speaker 3 (01:13:00):
You know.

Speaker 4 (01:13:00):
He doesn't talk about Bigfoot and he barely talks about
Bigfoot with me. And uh, you know, I I invited
Duane to be a part of my book and to
write part of it with me and stuff like that,
and he he opted not to do that. So, uh,
you know, I leave him alone, and you know we
see each other, you know, when we can, and you know,

(01:13:22):
that's that's kind of where that relationships at. But I
love my brother and he was really integral helped my
dad a lot in some of that stuff. But that's
not my brother in a suit. Now I can tell
you that.

Speaker 2 (01:13:34):
Now, you know, your dad eventually randed up having some
pretty serious health problems and some amputations, even I think
from diabetes if I remember correctly, Yeah, so so and
and he died as compl from complications of diabetes. Is
that correct?

Speaker 4 (01:13:49):
Well, that's what they say. Yeah, I mean he died
of basically massive part failure, you know, brought on by
by diabetes. Yeah, you know, basically a massive heart attack.
My dad broke the arch of his left foot in
nineteen eighty two actually jumping out of a truck and

(01:14:13):
he was a big guy, and he landed wrong and
he broke it and it never healed correctly, and he
had multiple surgeries on it, you know, enough to at
least cover you know, figures on one hand and at
least five. It just never would take and he linked
around and you know, by the time he got the
footage in ninety two. He wasn't walking real good, you know,
and he was forty nine years old and he was

(01:14:36):
getting up there, and you know, his health was in
decline at that at that point in time, but as
you know, he could still move because you were there
at deducted and he was moving quickly when he was
getting that stuff. But you know what ended up happening is, yeah,
the diabetes got worse, and his mobility got worse, and
he had a cane and he started to decline. And

(01:14:58):
the worst thing that my dad ever did ever in
his entire life was let a doctor talk him into
amputating that foot. It was like a horrible mistake. They
told him the pain would be gone, you'll get a prosthetic.
Everything's going to be easier, you know, And that just
wasn't the case because his weight made it hard to
walk in a prosthetic. And then he gained more weight

(01:15:19):
because he got depressed and he wasn't mobile, and then
he couldn't go to the mountains anymore, and he couldn't
walk around, and he couldn't hunt except for sitting in
his truck on the side of the road. And if
he didn't get something he'd have somebody else come pack
it out for him. He couldn't even do that anymore,
and he started spending more time in a wheelchair because
he was having problems walking. And you know, by the

(01:15:41):
time he died, like we were barely even fishing anymore
because we couldn't even get down to the water. And
it's you know, yeah, his decline is rough man. But
you know, there's a whole section in the book. And
to be honest with you, when I when I wrote it,
I wrote it about two o'clock in the I was
trying to sleep and my kids were asleep, and it

(01:16:04):
just hit me and I got up and I got
out of bed and I sat down for the computer
and I wrote a whole section of the book. It's
going to be the end of the book. And I
cried the whole time I wrote it, the whole time
I typed, and I can't even read it without get
a tear in my eye. So hopefully it has some
kind of effect on someone that reads it. You know,
that's because it's not just Bigfoot. I mean where you know,

(01:16:26):
he's a man, and I want people to realize that
there's a story of a man there.

Speaker 2 (01:16:31):
As well and tell us a little. We're coming to
the end here, so I know you have a heart
out here pretty quick here, tell us about the book,
and I know it's not out yet, but this will
probably are in October, I'm guessing, and maybe the book
will be out by non When does it do out?
And what can we expect to see and read about
and hear and all that stuff in the book? Because
this book is kind of the future, the kind of

(01:16:51):
book weeks we hope to get in the future. There's
a lot of really interesting technology buried into it. So
tell us about the book as much as you can, please, well,
be out.

Speaker 4 (01:17:00):
I think second half of October is what we're shooting for.
And don't hold me to that because it's already been delayed,
you know a little bit. But it's a monumental project.
And so what we have with the book, you know,
this is not going to be three hundred grainy yellow pages,
you know, of all this scientific talk and pictures you

(01:17:22):
know of dormal riches. What we're looking at is this
is going to be a full size coffee table style book, hardback,
with full size, glossy colored pictures, and we're going to
have over one hundred, well over one hundred pictures from
my father's personal photo albums and evidence logs, a lot

(01:17:45):
of pictures that no one's ever seen of prints and
casts and hair samples and pictures of you know, Bigfoot
and my family and my dad and stuff like that.
And we're also going to have over an hour of
audio recordings from my dad's personal audio journal that he
did in private that no one's ever heard outside of

(01:18:08):
well pretty much me, to be honest, and uh, you know,
the publisher and anyone that I've chosen to share anything
with this and they're going to be in there, and
it's going to be the him telling his own story,
kind of in his own words. And we're also going
to have new enhancements of the d DUP film that
a lot of people haven't seen, you know, or at

(01:18:29):
least hadn't seen until last month, when you know, I
kind of showed it at a special event. And uh,
we're also going to have some other footage that no
one's ever seen go in this book. And kind of
the cool thing the technology is that the audio and
the video are going to be scannable QR codes, and
so if you're not familiar with that what's going to

(01:18:49):
happen is you'll be reading the book and you'll, you know,
let's say you're reading something I wrote and you get
to the section on you know, the d DUX spring footage.
There's going to be a QR code there and you
just open up the camera on your phone and you
hold your phone over it, and it's just gonna pull
the footage up on your phone for you to watch,
or it's just gonna pull up an audio clip of
my dad talking, so you don't have to load a

(01:19:11):
CD and anything anymore to look at pictures or watch video.
We're here audio. It's all gonna be writing the pages
of the book. And I have some tremendous people helping
me out with this, and I've got you Cliff, of course,
you were kind enough to help me. And doctor Jeff
Meldrum as well has written a chapter, Thomas Powell, Jonathan Summerlin,
Dar Addington who wrote a chapter. Doug Hichek wrote a chapter,

(01:19:35):
and I've written a couple you know, chapters as well.
And we're gonna have some fantastic footage, and we're gonna
have some fantastic footage of this baby lift. And we're
gonna have pictures you've never seen, an audio you've never heard,
and it may not be the most you know, you know,
I'm not shooting for the best big Foot book of
all time, but I'm certainly shooting for the most dynamic

(01:19:55):
book on the subject that anyone's ever seen.

Speaker 3 (01:19:58):
Sounds like it.

Speaker 4 (01:20:00):
I just want I want people to like look at
it and go, man, that's cool, you know, And I
want them to just look at these pictures of the
evidence and stuff. And you know what really gets to me.
And part of the reason I did this is my
dad made these audio recordings because he was going to
write a book like That's the whole reason. He was

(01:20:20):
telling his story on tape. And it's unfortunate because I
have about six or seven hours of audio and I
kin use about an out of it because, as you understand,
we have restrictions on how big things can be, you know,
when you're putting the book together and whatnot. But you know,
my dad died. He never got to he never got
to write a book. And so even though this is
light years beyond I'm sure his you know, biggest possible dreams,

(01:20:43):
this is my dad's book, and I'm just the one
that's typing it out, you know, but it belongs to him.
And hopefully we can help set the record straight on
some of these mysteries and some of these rumors, and
hopefully this can convince some people to really take a
deep dive look at this ether and some of this
phenomenal evidence that we have that doesn't prove that Bigfoot exists,

(01:21:06):
because there's no proof of Bigfoot, but it certainly supports
the theory of the existence of Bigfoot. And we got
some of you know, my dad has some of the
best evidence that's ever been found, and I just want
to get it out there and show people.

Speaker 2 (01:21:19):
And it is long overdue. I mean, your dad has
been thrown under so many buses, man, he should just
have a bus pass because I mean, it is long overdue.
But I think that your dad would be immensely proud
of you. So congratulations on that.

Speaker 4 (01:21:34):
I hope so. And sorry if it sounds like I'm
getting somewhat emotional over here, because I am. But you know,
I hope my dad is proud. I hope it's something
that he like, would be proud of me doing it.
And we just get his legacy out there, and you know,
the present this stuff, and you know, here, here's my thing, man.

(01:21:54):
And I'll tell everybody like I am not out to
change anybody's mind that has an opinion on him, you know,
in any way that that's not my purpose in life.
But what I want to do is I want to
challenge people to take a look at the evidence and
draw their own conclusion from that instead of listening to
something that is some bitter old man said thirty years ago.

Speaker 2 (01:22:15):
You know, Michael, thank you so much for joining us.
I'm so pleased that this book is coming out. I
cannot wait to get my mits upon this thing. And
I think it's going to do so much for your
father's legacy and for the Bigfoot community in general. It's
going to be a historic event the release of this book. So,
and thank you for spending the last hour plus with us.
I think our listeners are really going to enjoy this one.

Speaker 4 (01:22:36):
I appreciate both you guys, and I appreciate Cliff you
you know, helping out on the book. And James, it's
nice to speak with you again. And you know, hopefully
the listeners had some fun and hopefully learned something today.

Speaker 3 (01:22:49):
Yeah, let's set these y'all.

Speaker 5 (01:22:50):
He's straight on the legacy of Paul Freedhiman and clear
up this nonsense and give them the do and respect
and respect and the crazies, do.

Speaker 4 (01:22:59):
You know I I certainly hope that, you know, yeah,
one of these days he gets the credit that he deserves,
and the entirety of the Blue Mountain Evidence gets the
credit that it deserves.

Speaker 2 (01:23:10):
All Right, Well, Michael, thank you very much, and I
will talk to you very soon. I'm sure.

Speaker 4 (01:23:14):
All right, I'll talk to you guys later.

Speaker 2 (01:23:15):
Thank you, So, Bobo, that was a good one that
it went pretty long. I hope our listeners are cool
with that. I'm sure they are. But man, what a
great episode.

Speaker 3 (01:23:23):
That is. Oh awesome.

Speaker 5 (01:23:25):
I mean I knew he was doing a book, but
I had no idea it was going to be this
like magnus Opus, you know, like it just sounds incredible.

Speaker 3 (01:23:31):
I can't wait to see it.

Speaker 2 (01:23:33):
Oh, it's really going to be something. And I worked
pretty I mean, my chapter is pretty short. I don't
know how everybody else's is. But I made a very
strong point I think there because what I did is
I personally I don't want to ruin anything for the readers,
but I took some of the Paul Freeman evidence and
what it showed us about the Sasquatch in general, the
Sasquatch foot in particular. And I brought other examples from
other locations and times, and I compared them to those

(01:23:56):
the Freeman data set and showed how the data the
evidence is congruent. What what Paul's evidence first pointed us
to is still being found in other places in times
throughout North America. And I can't wait to hear what
Jeff doctor Meldrim is written in there. And I know
Michael's gonna have a lot of great insight. They even
got legends like dar Addington. Dar's never done anything in

(01:24:17):
the public and Bigfoot, but she is a legitimate legend.
She was there with Paul, with David Bean, with all
these people, seeing these tracks in the ground, pulling tracks
for herself out of like really famous trackways, and she's
never got the credit for it. She is just an
angel of a human being. I love her so much.
I just cannot wait to read get my hands on
this book.

Speaker 5 (01:24:38):
Yeah, I think everyone heard that episode is think of
the same thing.

Speaker 2 (01:24:42):
Oh yeah, Dad, And for our members, man, I'm gonna,
I'm gonna, I think I'm gonna post some of the
research we've been doing at the North American Big C
Center here about the Freeman footage. I think i'll post
some of that. I'll share some of that outside of
our NABC membership, because our NABC memberships they've already seen
these videos and got a little taste of what we're doing,
and there's a lot more I haven't shared with them
yet either, by the way, but I'll share a little

(01:25:02):
bit with a Bigfoot and Beyond folks in the Patreon
section as well. So that's a little gift for our
members if you want to become a member. Speaking of which,
if you do want to become a member and get
extra content every single week, thirty forty five minutes or
more of content every single week from us, it sounds
like a gift from God. You can join our membership
or a gift from dog. Maybe I'm a little this dyslexic,

(01:25:23):
So yeah, you can actually join. Our membership is five
bucks a month. It's a Patreon thing. Go to our
website and follow the links over there Bigfoot and Beyond
podcast dot com. If you go there, you can do
lots of stuff. You can you can join as a member.
You can also leave questions or comments. You can leave
voicemails for us. You can do all sorts of things.
You can dance and wear a funny hat too if
you want. That's what I do with the website. But anyway,

(01:25:44):
go there and check it out. And then and you know,
keep following us, keep enjoying our podcast, give us suggestions.
What do you want to hear? And thank you very
much all for listening. Bobs your turn.

Speaker 3 (01:25:55):
Thank you said it all Clove, I am a little
long winded.

Speaker 5 (01:25:58):
I'm sorry, all right, Yeah, folks, thanks for tuning in.
Thanks Michael Freeman for joining us. And yeah, check out
the Patreon. We got some cool stuff we've been doing
on there, and all right, hit like, hit share, Let
your friends and family know. Listen to a big Foot
clipp and bubo and until next week, keep it squatchy.

Speaker 2 (01:26:22):
Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Bigfoot and Beyond.
If you liked what you heard, please rate and review
us on iTunes, Subscribe to Bigfoot and Beyond wherever you
get your podcasts, and follow us on Facebook and Instagram
at Bigfoot and Beyond podcast. You can find us on
Twitter at Bigfoot and Beyond that's an N in the middle,

(01:26:42):
and tweet us your thoughts and questions with the hashtag
Bigfoot and Beyond.

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