February 9, 2023 • 43 mins
On August 20, 1988, 22-year-old twin sisters C.W. and B.W. were kidnapped by a gunman as they got into their car in Dayton, OH. The gunman pointed a handgun at them and ordered them to drive to a wooded area where he sexually assaulted them. The man then blindfolded both women, robbed them, and fled. Soon after C.W. and B.W. reported their attack, another woman came forward and said she was attacked in a very similar manner earlier that month. The man had told all the victims that he was a store security guard and his name was “Roger.” Two years later, all three women selected Roger Gillispie – who was known to everyone as “Dean,” his middle name – from a photo lineup and he was arrested. Dean was convicted of the crime, but before he was sentenced, the defense found out that DNA had been tested and it excluded Gillispie. So a second trial was held and he was convicted again. This time, he was sentenced to 22-56 years in prison.
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https://innocenceproject.org/policy/ohio/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
In August, a serial rapist had already struck twice in Dayton, Ohio,
claiming three victims. The victims descriptions of the assailant, as
well as the event itself, were almost identical. The assailant
pretended to be a security gardeners shopping center and accused
the victims of shoplifting before using their cars to drive
them off into the woods to be orally sodomized and assaulted.
(00:25):
He called himself Roger, a composite sketch finally generated along
awaited lead Roger Dean Gillespie was identified as a possible
match by his direct supervisor at work, although he typically
went by Dean. All three victims identified him out of
a photo lineup, and again later at his trial, sending
him away for up to fifty six years. So it
(00:48):
seems like that's all there is to this story. But
this is wonderful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. If
(01:10):
I sound a little more sprightly than usual, it's because
of the guy I'm going to be interviewing, who's got
this infectious energy and smile and has just transcended this
insane ordeal that he went through. So I am really
excited today to have my friend Dean Gillespie on the show. Dean,
(01:31):
Welcome to Wrongful Conviction, Thank you sir. And with Dean
is the co founder of the Ohio Inness's Project. Dean's
case was their very first one, so we're very happy
and honor to have Mark Godsy here with us. Thank you,
happy to be here. And of course the other co
founder was John Cranley, who went on to become the
merri Cincinnati, but before all that, he worked to free
(01:51):
innocent people like Dean. So let's go back in time
with you two. Dean, your story is one that really
needs to be told for so many reasons, from police misconduct,
judicial misconduct, to what took place at your trial. We're
more than half of the jury was ready to acquit
before turning around and convicting you when they obviously had
(02:12):
reasonable more than reasonable doubts, and then only for you
and Markta then turned this whole thing around and make
history in Ohio. But before it any of this happened,
you had like a really good life. Well. I grew
up in a middle class family. My dad worked at
General Motors, my mother was a beautician, lived in a
great neighborhood where the friends that were around me, you know,
(02:34):
I knew my whole life. It's a beautiful place to
grow up for me. It was like I was like
beaver Claver. What town was that in Fairborne, Ohio? Where
the airplane was invented. I actually started working when I
was fifteen with a friend of my dad's. He was
a contractor, and then I graduated high school. My dad
wanted me to go work at General Motors, which at
that time was one of the best jobs in America.
(02:56):
You know, you get a GM, you were set. You know,
my dad in the union, so he knew the right
union people to get me the job at the GM plant.
I was going to the Community College for fire Science
Technology to basically to get the job, which was plant
protection at General Motors. And you're basically a fireman, so
(03:17):
put in the applications. You know, bam there was with
a job at General Motors at eighteen, I mean that
someone could get a job out of high school that
would have them, you know, pretty much set up for life.
Situations like that were dwindling a number even back then,
so this was really a valuable position you had, which
sort of inadvertently made you a target for a particularly
(03:39):
unscrupulous person. What we figured out during the course of
this was the boss at GM, which is a management nonunion.
This guy was the head of security the five different
plants and GM and Dayton, and he had a friend
who he wanted to get the job. So he don't
(04:01):
like me now because I got the job. And this
guy would just stirring up crap with me and harassing
me and just you know, dalking down to me and everything.
But you know, subsequently we come to find out that
he was so mad about it. We've proven four times
in federal court that he was taken my information from
Jerre Motors to the police department he used to work at,
(04:23):
where his buddy was the head of the police department,
trying to get me hooked up on something. Wow, because
it's a union's shop. You just can't fire somebody because
you don't like him. You have to have, you know,
some kind of reason. That reason will be me getting
locked up and not showing up to work. And this
sinister fox name was Richard Wolf, who then did what
(04:44):
he had already done previously when he heard about the
crimes were about to talk about it. Now this was August.
There were two gruesome sex crimes, one on August five,
and then the second one involving two victims, was on August.
The second one was reported first though. There were twenty
two year old twin sisters. We're gonna call them c
(05:04):
W and b W. This is around seven seven pm
as they were getting into their car outside of the
Best Product store in Daton, Ohio, and they were kidnapped
by a lone gunman and then said that he was
a store security guard and his name was Roger. Yeah.
So the perpetrator sort of accused them of shoplifting, had
a gun and said you gotta come with me, pretending
(05:24):
like you know, I'm going to take you around the
little you know, mall cop police station we've got here
or whatever. Um. Instead, he takes them off into the woods.
When they got there, he exposed himself, bundled their breasts,
and forced them to perform oral sex on him. He
then blindfolded both women and forced them to lie down
in the backseat while he drove back to the Best
Products store. So there were some distinctive things that the
(05:44):
perpetrator said and did. Specifically, he would say things like,
you know, I'm a contract killer for the c I A.
I get a thousand dollars per hit. He had cigarettes,
you know, smoking. He mentioned at one point how he
does this to women because he was molested by his
grandfather when he was twelve. He said he was from
Corpus Christi, Texas. At one point he said he's from Columbus, Ohio.
He then fled with money from their purses, as well
(06:06):
as a lighter and a pack of cigarettes. Now here's
the thing. Like, these women reported this as all to
the police, and around the same time, a twenty eight
year old woman who were going to call sc totally
separate incident reported that a man wearing sunglasses and armed
with a chrome handgun abducted her same emo on August five. Yeah,
what happened is uh sc read the newspaper report of
what happened to the twins, you know, once she read
(06:28):
the similarities, and she decided she was going to come forward.
This woman said the attacker got into her car when
she came out of a store in a different shopping center.
This guy identified himself, according to her, as a security
guard and said his name was Roger. He ordered her
to drive behind a vacant building where he funneled her
breast and force or of perform oral sex. So it
was pretty clear to the police that the same guy
was responsible for all three victims in both events. Were
(06:50):
rape kits done? Was there any testing done on any
of this type of you know, whether zerological or other
biological evidence. The b w N C be a case
there was rape gets done on We know that for
for sure. You know, they collected semen on the sweater
of one of the victims, and there were hairs that
were collected, you know. Unfortunately, this was a eight you know,
(07:12):
before really DNA testing was known and widely used criminal investigations.
So the items in question that the perpetrator touched or
might have deposited biological material on were given back to
the victims by the police. So any chance for DNA
testing was sort of ruined, right, But no one even
knew that until much later when the Ohio Innestance Project
kind of involved. But in the immediate aftermath, there were
(07:33):
these hairs that they would eventually try to match with
suspects by using hair microscopy, which is a well known
junk science. But they've actually got to find the suspects first,
so they relied on a composite sketch from the detailed
descriptions that they had received from all three victims. And
the descriptions were consistent. Yeah, so they were a very
consistent all three victims. So he had his shirt unbuttoned
(07:55):
and you could see this big like rap medallion, very
dark tan. This was August. Had acne along the jaw line,
and he had very specific color of hair, is brown
with a reddish tent. And they described him as tall
and kind of a big guy, and something like between
one eight and two fifty. I think there was a
pretty broad range. The pant size that they one of
(08:15):
them provided was smaller would be a guy more like,
you know, pounds, two hundred pounds something like that. So Dean,
did any of those very specific details match. You know?
They said the guy who attacked him had a dark
sun tan. I'm very irish. I burned and I go
back to white. You know. The person who attacked him
did not have a hairy chest because of the medallion.
(08:38):
I got a bear suit on. I'm covered in hair.
The person who attacked him had severe acne scars on
both sides of his jaw line. I did not have
any of that stuff. The person who attacked him did
not have a cleft chin. I've got a cleft chin.
I started having gray hair on my temples in the
tenth grade, which is a feature that the victims would
(08:59):
have mentioned it have been you. And also I understand
that you have always hated cigarettes, absolutely hate cigarettes. My
dad smoked most of my life and I could I
can't stand smell them. So why am I even being
looked at as a suspect? And you had no idea
that your boss, Richard Wolfe had it out for you.
This bad I mean, on its face, the only thing
(09:20):
about this crime that has any connection to you was
the name Roger. Now your full name is Roger Dean Gillespie,
but you've always gone by Dean. But by the time
you had been considered for this crime, a lot of
time had passed by, the case had gone cold. So
since it wasn't fresh in the headlines, do we know
what prompted him to try to bring you in. No.
He says that he's seen a newspaper article on a
(09:42):
bulletin board in the plant, and he went down and said, hey,
check this guy out. And the first time that he
went down there, he was seeing the detectives who were
in charge of that case when it very first started,
so they knew the case inside. And now they looked
at my d m V or dry was license and
seeing that I didn't fit the description at all. They
(10:04):
knew the pant size, and when they looked at the
hide and weight on me, they knew I couldn't fit
in the pants, which I always say one time in
my life, being fat was good for me. Right, you
would think, yeah, so you know they've done a little
right up on it and disregarded me as a suspect,
and that was the end of it, you know with them. Yes,
(10:25):
so you know Dean was eliminated as a suspect. Time
went by. The detectives on the case who eliminated Dean retired,
moved out of state. After they left. My boss his
best friend who was the chief of police. The chief's
son was a detective. Now, so my boss he went
back with the same information and said, check this guy out.
(10:45):
I think that when he was talking to this young
new detective, with him being a ex police officer and
understand how the system works, he was able to convince
him that he was working on the right track and
in the right guy detectives out more twenty six years old,
takes over the case, and the filed eliminating Dean disappears
and we don't know what happened to it. And he
(11:06):
just decides, I'm gonna go out and show the victims
a photo spread with Dena and and you know, you
look at the photo spread, it's clear that the other
five came from the same source. Deans was glossy and
the other ones were matt He's got a different color background.
The victims that described the perpetrators having a wide face
to the picture used of Dean is like his face
is taking up the entire square, so it makes his
head look really big and his face wide, whereas the
(11:28):
other five are all like back more like Torso shots.
And so if you look at it, you go five
of these are fillers, which one doesn't fit clearly it's
this one. First off, I have no animosity toward the
victims in this case because they were done wrong and
they were lied to, just like I was. And you
got to remember, this case is to two and a
(11:49):
half years old, and studies show that you know when
it's a stranger rape, your ability to identify accurately decreases
steadily from the time it happens, and it's essentially down
to chance by eleven months. And so you're sticking a
photo spread up in front of somebody two years after
the fact with an extremely suggestive lineup. That's a very
dangerous situation. Yeah, I mean they were re victimized, right,
(12:10):
But now with the victims identifying you, they had what
they needed to get into rest warrant. Even though, as
we've already mentioned, other than the name Roger, you and
the assailant had very little in common. It's why the
initial lead detectives eliminated you as a suspect. And there's
more that they discovered that should have eliminated you again,
but tunnel vision and no. Perhaps maybe the detective Scott More,
(12:34):
feeling some kind of twisted obligation to his father's best friend,
may have been why they continued their pursuit of you. Dean.
I mean, when did you first find out that you
were being targeted in this way? I got a letter
called a demand letter to come into the police department,
and because I'm a dumbass, I went in and he
(12:56):
questioned me about these incidents. Where were you add on
this day? Which was two years before. Who knows where
they were at two years ago, But because I didn't know,
he felt like I wasn't answering his questions. So weeks
later is when they came to the house. They tore
my house apart. You know, they're supposed to be a
gun involved and everything else. I didn't have guns. There
(13:16):
was no clothing or anything that even even came close
to the type of attire this person was wearing. Okay,
so that you're arrested and taking out in jail, we
go through the arrangement and everything. They reduced the bond
down enough for me to get out, and I am
in a frantic mode to try to figure out where
I was at during this time. And I was very
(13:37):
lucky enough to have two friends who kept calendars of events.
You know, I was in Morehead, Kentucky on one of
the days of these crimes that took place with my friends.
We were skin and fishing and just having fun at
the lake, and the other one we were with some
friends who came in from college and we were out
with them. Unfortunately, alibi witnesses are often easily explained it
(14:00):
away by the prosecution as people who are willing to
lie for you, including about your ability to tan. They
had photographic evidence of how it would have been impossible
for you to tan, but it had no effect, nor
did pointing out all the other discrepancies, amongst so many
other tactics. During pre child your defense tried to suppress
the identifications for the same reasons we had mentioned earlier,
(14:20):
which is how outrageously suggested the lineups were. It's harder
to get these things suppressed even when they're suggestive. We
see this a lot. The current case law by the
Supreme Court is completely out of date, doesn't reflect science,
and that needs a change eventually. But yeah, that they
allowed it in and they allowed identification, So I want
our audience to take notice. Here these are the steps
that our guests, usually incompetent attorneys, did not take. That
(14:43):
you might be telling yourself that you'd make sure that
you and your lawyer would take. But it still made
no difference to judge allowed in the ideas, and the
jury was not moved by the alibi witnesses nor any
of the discrepancies between Dean and the assailant, so he
was found guilty. But war sentencing, a defense investigator learned
that Hair is recovered from the victims that were said
(15:04):
to have been lost had not only not been lost,
but the crime lab had actually tested them against Dean
and excluded him. They found some hairs that had been
on the victim's sweaters from the August event with the twins,
and they did not belong to Dean Glisbie, and so
he got a new trial where they could introduce that
the hair is found on the victims did not belong
to Dan Glisbean. Right. This seemed compelling at the time,
(15:25):
but hair microscopy is shaky science. At best. You might
be able to eliminate someone from inclusion, but making a
match with any degree of certainty is total horseship. It
could be said that practitioners of this junk science might
be willing to say anything, but this is the state's evidence,
and given the opportunity, they still didn't try to budge
the evidence and fix it on Dean. But the idea
(15:48):
that he could simply not have physically been the man
they were describing should have been enough on top of
his alibi, for which they were over twenty witnesses. So Dean,
what do you number about? The second trial? Things got
weird because one of my friends is a pretty proficient smartass.
And when the bar esecutor asked him, do you know
(16:13):
Roger Gillespie, he said, I sure do, and he said
he is in the courtroom and he said he sure is,
and he said, will you pointing him out to us,
and he said, he's the guy in the back sitting
with the gray haired lady, which was my mom and dad.
Because my name is Roger Dean Gillespie, my whole entire life.
The only name I've ever used is Dean Gillespie. My
(16:35):
dad is Roger. All my friends, some of didn't even
know that my first name was Roger. So when he
got off the stand, the prosecutor went to a sidebar.
We had twenty two other people to testify for me
and complain that all these people grew up with me,
they knew me my whole life, and they were going
to life for me. And they cut all of the
(16:55):
rest of the witnesses on my side. That's is that legal.
It worked. Then there was more than just these witnesses
that he had an extreme dislike for cigarettes. They had
pictures of him before all this happened inside his truck
on the dashboard. He had to thank you for not
smoking plastic sticker, like a bumper sticker. He's stuck on
his dashboard and he's like the most irish whitest guy ever.
(17:18):
I mean, you know, you have these pictures of him
before all this happened, where he's out at lakes with
all his friends and they're in boats and their skin
and then you know they'd be in drinking beers that
night and everybody's really tan, and he's like beat red,
even though he had sunscreen on and a T shirt,
so he he literally cannot tan. On top of that,
he's somebody. It's a family trade that had been going
gray since ninth grade. In high school. They called him
(17:39):
the silver fox, and the victims were very specific that
it was brown with a reddish tan. He didn't have
a reddish tent. And they were asked on the stand
did he have any gray, and they all said no.
There was all this evidence, and sure enough it resonated
with the jury. I think it was two days they deliberated,
and they am out eight to four, eight for acquittal,
(18:02):
four for conviction, and the judge told him to go
to lunch and come back and study on it some more.
They came back out again at eight to four. You know,
it's it's actually kind of amazing that the jury was
eight four for acquittal when you have three victims on
the stand crying who were actually raped, and you have
all that emotion and they're saying, I'm a positive that's
(18:24):
the guy. That guy is getting convicted, even if there's
all these things that don't match. So you know the
fact that they were eight to four to acquit at
the beginning, it shows you how bad the case was
against him. And then the judge gives him what's called
a dynamite charger and alan charge and sends them back.
And this is what happened after that. He said, I
have a fishing trip. I don't want to be here.
(18:45):
If you don't reach a verdict, you're going to be
sequestered until you do, which means you are going to
leave here to a hotel, no contact, and we will
come back in until you reach a verdict. Forty forty
five minutes later, they just came back, said all upset,
gilly And like I said, I grew up in in
(19:22):
just a great, beautiful world, and I go into a
close maximum security prison where se of these people are
never getting out your life means nothing to them. The
violence is overwhelming. You know, I've been in bar fights
or whatever as a kid, but I've never seen anything
(19:43):
like this. You know, when you're in prison and you
get into a fight, you're fighting for your life. Every
time they want to test you. Soon as you get
in there, what are you gonna do? You know, you're
gonna be a punk and give your stuff every commissary time,
and everything you own is gonna be taken by some
body where you're gonna fight. Luckily, and I was a
big enough guy, and I was very very well first
(20:05):
and fighting, and that helped me a little bit. But
still get your ass beat. You know. I started reading
a lot, and I started doing artwork and listen to
a lot of music and try to stay out of
the way the best I could. And somehow or other,
you did, and you managed to figure out how to
not only survive, but to fight, to continue to fight
and what was really not just an uphill battle but
(20:26):
a virtually hopeless battle. I mean, you've seen the worst
of what they could do to a person, and yet
you managed to continue to advocate for yourself. You know,
my mom fought and fought and fought and as she
was not giving up on nothing, so I never lost hope.
I always knew that I was coming out there because
(20:47):
I didn't do this. They would file a brief file
emotion and then you know, you wait and you get
all excited about it, and then you get denied and
that crushes you. And you start talking to these lawyers
and they start explaining to you, Oh, we're gonna do this,
and we're gonna do this, so you you get a
little bit more hope, and it's like, well, how long
is that going to take? Well, you know it's not
(21:08):
gonna happen overnight, so you know, the years just start
clicking off while you're filing these motions and they keep
getting denied, to the point of I said, do not
send me these motions no more. I don't want to
read them. I don't want to see them because I
get too hyped up. I just want to get my
mind into a state where it's the same every day
(21:28):
and not keep doing this up and down thing. I
tried to clear my mind every day and then start
the next day to be as positive and as happy
as I could be every day, just to try to
keep my sanity until you wanted the senor people. I know,
maybe I'm missing something. But and then in two thousand
and three, you get a break when the Ohio Innistance
Project began representing you. Right. So in November of two
(21:51):
thousand two, I got hired as a law professor teach
criminal law at the University of Cincinnati College of Law.
But I wasn't gonna start until the following year when
classes start August of two thousand three. And John Cranley
was a city councilman at that time in Cincinnati. He
later became the mayor, and he wanted to do something
positive with his law degree in addition to be a
city councilman. So he was trying to start an innocence
(22:12):
project at you see law school. Couldn't get the dean
to bite, couldn't get any professors to bite. So I
get hired, and I have been a prosecutor by this
point in time. I was very bought into the idea
that people are wrongfully convicted and we need to make
some reforms in the system. So when he approaches me
and says, I've been trying to get this school to
start one will you help run it with me? And
I'm like, yeah, let's do it. So we have our
first fundraiser shortly after I was hired. It was November
(22:34):
of two thousand and two, and there's some newspaper coverage
of that fundraiser. And in January, one of Gollispie, Dean's mom,
before I even had started at you See Law, before
we'd officially launched the Innocence project, she tracks me down.
It comes to my office with a big box of
files and says, you know you're gonna take this case.
It starts like pitching it to me. He's my son's innocent.
(22:54):
He didn't do this. So it was literally the first
one we were looking into. Our first angle and we
started looking at the case in two thousand three was
to see if there was any DNA to test, and
there were some hairs that were collected off of the
victim's sweaters, but it turns out that most of them
belonged to them. We did do DNA testing on those,
but they were irrelevant. They didn't match Dean, they didn't
match anybody. Most of them were the victim's own hairs.
(23:16):
There was no semen that was actually preserved that we
could test, even though there was some of the crime scene.
You know, we tried to see if there was anything. Again,
our history tells us that they'll say things are destroyed,
but when you really dig in, sometimes you'll find the
semen even though they said they destroyed it. But in
this case, it really was destroyed. There was nothing we
could do other than the hairs, which turned out to
be uneventful. So now without the easier of the irrefutable
(23:38):
smoking gun evidence seminal DNA in a rape case, you
had to buckle in and prove it with a more
full investigation. And Dean's case, because it's just so monstrously egregious,
there was plenty of it, including a more likely suspect
during the initial investigation, which was a guy named Kevin Copp.
(23:59):
So at some point after Dean was convicted, a phone
call had come into I believe his attorney's office. Somebody
had made an anonymous phone call saying the guy who
committed these crimes, his name is Kevin Cobb. It was
like a notation to that effect in the file. And
this person wouldn't give their name. They said, you know,
I worked with him at a correctional institute, but he's
the one who committed these crimes. At Dean Gillispie's in
(24:21):
So we start investigating Kevin Cobb. First thing we do
is get his rap sheet. He has a history of
pretending to be a police officer, flashing a badge and
committing crimes. And you start looking into those cases. You
know he's arrested in this year of domestic violence. So
we go pull that file and we can get the
name of the female victim. So we start going and
talking to some of these ex girlfriends and stuff, and
(24:41):
what do we find out. He would get drunk and
tell people he's a contract killer for the CIA, gets
a thousand dollars per hit. He told one girlfriend I
was molested by my grandfather when I was twelve. He
tells people he's from Columbus, Ohio and Corpus Christie, Texas.
In fact, he had been stationed in the Marines at
Corpus Christie for a while, exactly what the rapists said.
We talked to people who knew him back at the
(25:03):
same time of these crimes, to the point of going
to his high school getting his senior year book, tracking
down people that had lived in that town and knew
him around the same age. We found incidents of him
wearing a medallion. Around the same year Flashing of Badge
pretending to be a cop. We found incidents of him
using the name Roger. We heard the history of how
he developed that fake name. There was a mentally challenged
(25:26):
young man in their town named Roger who would walk
around town and Kevin Cobb would make fun of him,
would imitate them and say I'm Roger, you know, mimicking
Roger's voice, And when he was acting crazy, he would
take on this Roger persona. So we had incidents where
he would commit crimes Flash of Badge and use the
name Roger, and then we get a picture of him
from and composite sketches are usingly not very accurate, but
(25:50):
it looks just like the composite sketch. We found out
from the people who knew him that he got very
tan in the summer, he was a smoker. Everything just
matched up. It was uncanny. In Ohio Corrections, Officer Jesus Christ,
I mean almost all of the villains in this story
are part of the system. And I say almost because
not only did the initial investigators Fritz and Bailey do
(26:12):
the right thing, but now in the lead up to
filing the two thousand and seven post conviction filing, the
former Ohio Attorney General Jim Pietro actually joined Dean's legal team.
The main allegations were the Kevin Cobb, but also the
fact that the original investigation had eliminated Dean. We were
able to talk to Fritz and Bailey, who told us
all about the original investigation. They gave us affidavits they
(26:34):
had created reports eliminating Dean as a suspect. They talked
about the pants sized discrepancy everything else, that those had disappeared.
The jury had never heard about them. So there were
multiple claims that we filed in two thousand seven. So
things now appear to be looking up. After all, you
had the super compelling alternative suspect evidence about Kevin Cobb.
In addition to Jim Pietro and your team, the original
(26:55):
detective Fritz and Bailey were on board in supporting the
Brady claim that all of their work from the initial
investigation had been disappeared or gone missing and therefore was
not shared with the defense. It seems like you finally
really had momentum on your side. The judge that Dean
had at that time, who had taken over for the
trial judge his name was A. J. Wagner, and we
could not have drawn a worse judge. Extremely hostile to
(27:17):
the idea that somebody could be wrongfully convicted that eye
witness it can be wrong, extremely hostile to basically us.
And we presented the evidence and he denied it outright
without a hearing, so we had to appeal. The appellate
court denied us on the Brady claim, which is the
missing file, but said that the judge should have had
a hearing on Kevin Cobb. So at that point the
(27:39):
case breaks in half. The Brady claims since we lost
in the Court of Appeals, continues up the appellate chain
to the House Supreme Court, and that the Kevin Cobb
part of it is sent back down the lower step
to the trial court for a hearing, which is like
a trial. And we'll catch up with the Brady potion
of the case in a bit, but first you've got
to go back to the trial court with the Kevin
Cobb issue in front of this uper hostile judge. Again,
(28:01):
just to show you what type of judge J. J.
Wagner was, There was a whole other part of the
case where Dean on the August twentie incident, was actually
camping in Kentucky with friends, and when his investigator had
gone down to try to get the receipts to show
he had been camping that weekend, they were missing. So
of course they crossed. Examined more on the stand during
the trial and he's like, no, I never went down there.
(28:23):
I never took those receipts. When it became public we
were working on the case, a cop reached out to
us who said, I actually know that he did go
down there, because he admitted it to me. And we
tried to get an affidavit from him, and the officer said,
I can't cross the blue line like that. I just
want you to know you're on the right track. And
at that point I started secretly recording this officer. So
when we go to file for Dean in two thousand
(28:44):
and seven, we attached affidavit's saying what this guy had
said to us. What they file a response and they
get this cop to say I never said that they're lying,
blah blah blah blah blah. On our reply brief we
go we got you on tape talking about it. So A. J.
Wagner denies us on that claim again, we don't have
a hearing nothing. And after it's over and the case
goes to a Court of Appeals, I get a call
(29:04):
saying A. J. Wagner wants to have a status conference.
So I'm thinking, why does he want a status conference?
The cases in the Court of Appeals? Now, this is
like not even his jurisdiction. So we get on this
teleconference on the phone, the prosecutors on the phone, and
Jim Petro's on the phone, and A J. Wagner goes, oh,
thanks everybody for coming together. Um, yeah, I just wanted
to get the parties together because Professor Godsey secretly recorded
(29:24):
a police officer without his knowledge, which is a federal crime.
And I'm letting everybody know that I'm turning the evidence
over to federal prosecutors. And then there was this like
awkward pause and Jim Petro goes, Judge, it's not a
federal crime to secretly record a police officer. It's legal
in Ohio. And then Judge Wagner goes, Dan, what's the
name of the prosecutor? Is that your view? Yeah, Judge,
(29:46):
I don't think it's illegal, and A J. Wagner goes, well,
I'll look into it a little bit, Mark, let me
and it just hangs up the phone and I never
hear anything about it again. That shows you what kind
of judges we sometimes deal with. An A. J Agner's
about as bad as the kids. Yeah, So the Brady
(30:16):
claim was still being litigated in the background as the
Kevin Cobb issue was being sent back down to the
trial court. And now A. J. Wagner was expected to
be impartial when he was being forced by the appelic
court to hear all of the evidence that you had
compiled on Kevin Cobb, especially after he had embarrassed himself
in front of his colleagues and the federal prosecutorcy he
had spoken to about indicting Mark right, and this guy
(30:40):
is your judge. So we had a hearing in front
of A. J. Wagner, which is like a trial. That's
what we call witnesses. They come and testify about Kevin Cobb.
You know, we call these ex girlfriends, these people that
Kevin Cobb had committed crimes against who talked about He
used the name Roger, He flashed a badge, you know,
he was very tan. He claimed to be a contract
killer for the c I A all those things I
(31:01):
talked about that make an uncanny match from Kevin Cobb
to the this crime, and then Judge Wagner summarily dismissed it.
So we then appealed that back up to the Court
of Appeals. Meanwhile, the half that we lost on the
Brady claim and the appellate court, we appealed to the
highest Supreme Court, where we lost. At that point, since
it was a constitutional claim Brady, that gave us jurisdiction
(31:22):
to take the case into what's called federal habeas, So
we filed a federal habeas petition. So this Brady issue
that the initial detective Fritz and Bailey had ruled Dean
out as a suspect and the file was hidden from
the defense. They received a hearing and federal court on
this issue. In front of Judge Michael Myrs. Fritz and
Bailey testified again about all the physical discrepancies that they
(31:42):
had written a report about the hair, the skin, the
cleft chin, the pants couldn't have fit, so you must
have quit. In addition, they were suspicious of Wolf's tip,
calling it quote unquote particularly unreliable because the composite sketch
had been posted at the gm plant since shortly after
the assaults, but Wolf only went to the police after
a nasty fight resulting in Dean being fired. So they
(32:05):
wrote this report about Dean not being a viable suspect
and it was never seen by the defense, along with
the campground receives that the chief's son, Scott More never
turned over either. And the decision came down on December six,
two thousand eleven. You know in this day and age,
when they issue a decision, the email it an email
had come from the federal court, and I see that
(32:25):
we won the case. He threwout Dean's conviction based on
the Brady claim. So I immediately drive up to Dayton,
which is only about forty five minutes from Cincinnati. I
don't tell anybody, and I knock on the door of
Dean's mom and dad want to and Roger Glispie years
but we won Dean's case. What judge merged throughout the
(32:47):
Oh my God, come in here and have a seat.
(33:09):
This is the sound, the heart wrenching sound of a
mother's grief. But it all means that her boy was
finally coming home after so many years lost. And it
took about a week for you to get out. You
were released on bond with an ankle monitor just in
time for the holidays. The US Marshall came and got me.
(33:30):
It was December twenty two, so everyone was basically shut
down and closing up for the holidays. So she picks
me up and I'm like, where's everybody at what's going on?
She goes right down the road. So we drive down
the road to a bowling alley right around a corner
from the prison. You could actually see the place from
the wreck yard on the back side of the prison
(33:51):
when you're walking the track, and uh, I go into
this bowling alley. All my families there, all my friends,
the media was everywhere. One of them asked me, how
does it feel to be free? And I'm like, I'm
looking around the room and I knew all these people
that were bowling because they were guards from the prison.
(34:12):
It was Gardens League bowling night from the prison. And
it's like, oh my god, man, am i at am
I free? Or am I in purgatory? It was very
much of legal purgatory because yeah, you were released, but
you were wearing an ankle monitor and the case had
not been officially dismissed. Meanwhile, the other issue of the
alternative suspect Kevin Cobb, that was still being litigated. Now,
(34:34):
last we checked, A. J. Wagner had just denied you
on that issue, and your team appealed to the decision.
Four months later, in April of two thousand twelve, we
went in the Court of Appeals on Kevin Cobb. So
he's like double released. He's the only exonore I know
of in the country that was exonerated twice on two
totally independent grounds, Like if you take away the Brady,
he still would have been exonerated on Kevin Cobb. If
(34:55):
you take away Kevin Cobby still would have been exonerated
on Brady, and they're totally independent of one another. So
he was like a double exhoneration. So the state would
have to fight this on two fronts in order to
get you back in and considering the evidence in this,
a normal person would just let this go right. So
you guys filed to have the charges dismissed and that
was dragged out until two thousand fifteen when Montgomery Court
(35:16):
of common Please Judge Stephen Dankoff granted the motion to
dismissed the indictment. The state appealed. It dragged it out
for another two years to July seventeen, so almost six
years later, the decision was finally upheld and the case
was dismissed. That was the federal side, the Brady violation,
(35:36):
that was in the federal court, and that's what got
dismissed there, and then we had an alternate suspect and
the state court. I didn't get officially all the way
done until December nine of ten years. I mean not
only your time, but their time, which actually belongs to
(35:57):
the taxpayers and in the public. I mean, considering all
the ship that we all now know about this case,
like why continue this charade? And you gotta look at
the money. You gotta look at the money that was wasted.
It was just, you know, wasted on frivolous nothingness, Like
what are you doing right? And think of all the
(36:19):
better things they could have been doing with their time
and our money. You know, I can't imagine that a
single one of their constituents wants this done in their name.
This was the alternative suspect part of the case. We're
not positive that Kevin Cobb was the assailant, but the
evidence certainly pointed in his direction and continuing to try
to maintain Dean's conviction. They just doubled down on letting
(36:42):
whoever the actual sailant was, go free and stay free.
Another thing that I can bet that all of their
constituents would be firmly opposed to. But now you've finally
been fully exonerated, and there's a bitter sweetness to this
part of the story. You pursued Miami Township Police Department
as well as the tech have got more civilly right
for the civil suit. In November of twenty two, we
(37:06):
started a week of preparation for the federal civil suit.
We went through a two week trial. The PTSD was
off the charts for me. It was just unbelievable to
sit through all that. But we get through it and
the judge sent him back to deliberate, and they deliberated
about three hours. They asked one question and that was
(37:28):
do legal fees come out of damages? And then we knew, like, oh, ship,
they're on the right track. They went to lunch and
then came back sent us in the court and uh.
Then they got to the money amount um of damages
and it was it was a shot around the world
at forty five million dollars. Yeah, I mean, obviously no
(37:52):
amount of money would ever give you that time back.
But you know it is the largest verdict in Ohio
state history. Correct. Yeah, I wouldn't do it again for
a hundred million dollars. You couldn't say, in n We're
gonna send you to prison for twenty years for a
hundred million dollars. I wouldn't do it. First, you got
to survive the twenty years. You know, there is no
way in the world any money, you know, send me
(38:14):
back to years old. Do that. You know, keep your
money and put me back in that era. But you
know that you can't get it back. And that was
one of my things with the PTSD and the court
was when they talked about the amount of time and
they would always say you, you can never get that back.
And when I'm sitting there, it is just like smacking
(38:36):
me in the face, like my God, it's gone. It's
and it it isn't coming back. This this here is
not gonna make that come back. I mean, I've got
a lot of things i want to do, got car
building on my mind. I'm doing one now, and just
things like that. I'm setting up a trust from my
great niece who seven, you know, to hopefully, you know,
make this money grow into something that would be a legacy.
(38:58):
But uh, definitely going to be supporting our Ohio project.
I'd like to encourage our audience to support the Ohio
Innocence Project. We're gonna have it linked in the bio
because without them, Dean would not be out here with
us along with so many others. Yeah, I was. I
was the first case the how instance project took person.
(39:20):
We got out and the artists are twenty year anniversary.
We've got thirty nine people out well, Mark, you, Jennifer,
the whole crew. You're all doing phenomenal work. And here's
the next thirty nine. And now we go to the
closing of our show. So of course this is called
closing arguments. I love this segment and I love it
(39:44):
because it's a part where I get to, first of all,
thank YouTube for being here and sharing this incredible, incredible
story with me and our our amazing audience. And so
how this works is I'm gonna turn my microphone off,
kick back in my chair with my headphones on, close
my eyes, and just listen to any closing thoughts that
you guys want to share Mark, why don't you start?
(40:05):
And Dean, you take us off into the sunset. A
grave injustice occurred against Dean. Grave injustices and unfairness occurred
to people all the time. And you can say, well,
you know, how can we take this and how can
he get complete vindication? And you can dream of the
steps that you would go through to win your case
(40:25):
to get free two then you know, win some huge
settlement right in the face of the cop who did
this to you. That's like the movie Shawshank Redemption, where
he gets his revenge and and everything turns out the
way it should. In real life, that doesn't happen. It
never happens the way it should. But in Dean's case
it did. And you know, we sat in prison and
(40:46):
talked about his wrongful conviction all the way back in
two thousand three and two thousand four, and it looked
like such a long shot to get this overturned, and
everything that should have happened to vindicate him just happened
like a Hollywood story. And and I'm so happy for him.
I wish this. I wish other people who have had
these rawful convictions happened to them. Could have the Hollywood
story play out the way it has. People always ask
(41:08):
what is the fix, What is the fix. I don't
know that there's a fix. I feel like we need
term limits on prosecutors. We need to figure out this
system where the judge has put in place, like the
federal system, because when you have a judge's gonna be
on your television saying I'm gonna be tough on crime,
(41:29):
he's already formulating an opinion, so he's biased to start with.
I think that's a start in this. But we've got
other issues with this problem, and that is the folks
who are in states that don't get compensated. They also
don't get credit for Social Security, and that is a
(41:50):
huge issue for folks who are gonna have to work
the rest of their life. We need to try to
figure out a fix for that. I know it's uh
that that's a huge undertaking and complicated thing, but we
gotta have compensation across America. Until then, we need to
fix the sof security so so folks can not have
to work their whole life because they spent time in
prison and didn't pay in And thank god for the
(42:11):
Innocence Project, thank God for the Berry and Peter you know,
the projects all across America. And you know, I can't
never say enough about Mark Gazzi saved my life, and
the and the kids who work in our program with
the University of Cincinnati Law School. Just you know, support
these organizations because this this is still going on, This
is still happening. The man just got out of Arizona
(42:33):
with fifty three years in so this can't keep going.
You can't keep happening. We've got to fix this problem.
Thank you for listening to Ronful Conviction. I'd like to
thank our production team Connor Hall, Cheff Clyvern and Kevin Wardis.
(42:53):
With research by Lila Robinson. The music in this production
was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.
Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,
on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and on Twitter at
wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On
all three platforms. You can also follow me on both
(43:13):
TikTok and Instagram at It's Jason Flom. Wrongful Conviction is
the production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with
Signal Company Number one
In August, a serial rapist had already struck twice in Dayton, Ohio,
claiming three victims. The victims descriptions of the assailant, as
well as the event itself, were almost identical. The assailant
pretended to be a security gardeners shopping center and accused
the victims of shoplifting before using their cars to drive
them off into the woods to be orally sodomized and assaulted.
(00:25):
He called himself Roger, a composite sketch finally generated along
awaited lead Roger Dean Gillespie was identified as a possible
match by his direct supervisor at work, although he typically
went by Dean. All three victims identified him out of
a photo lineup, and again later at his trial, sending
him away for up to fifty six years. So it
(00:48):
seems like that's all there is to this story. But
this is wonderful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. If
(01:10):
I sound a little more sprightly than usual, it's because
of the guy I'm going to be interviewing, who's got
this infectious energy and smile and has just transcended this
insane ordeal that he went through. So I am really
excited today to have my friend Dean Gillespie on the show. Dean,
(01:31):
Welcome to Wrongful Conviction, Thank you sir. And with Dean
is the co founder of the Ohio Inness's Project. Dean's
case was their very first one, so we're very happy
and honor to have Mark Godsy here with us. Thank you,
happy to be here. And of course the other co
founder was John Cranley, who went on to become the
merri Cincinnati, but before all that, he worked to free
(01:51):
innocent people like Dean. So let's go back in time
with you two. Dean, your story is one that really
needs to be told for so many reasons, from police misconduct,
judicial misconduct, to what took place at your trial. We're
more than half of the jury was ready to acquit
before turning around and convicting you when they obviously had
(02:12):
reasonable more than reasonable doubts, and then only for you
and Markta then turned this whole thing around and make
history in Ohio. But before it any of this happened,
you had like a really good life. Well. I grew
up in a middle class family. My dad worked at
General Motors, my mother was a beautician, lived in a
great neighborhood where the friends that were around me, you know,
(02:34):
I knew my whole life. It's a beautiful place to
grow up for me. It was like I was like
beaver Claver. What town was that in Fairborne, Ohio? Where
the airplane was invented. I actually started working when I
was fifteen with a friend of my dad's. He was
a contractor, and then I graduated high school. My dad
wanted me to go work at General Motors, which at
that time was one of the best jobs in America.
(02:56):
You know, you get a GM, you were set. You know,
my dad in the union, so he knew the right
union people to get me the job at the GM plant.
I was going to the Community College for fire Science
Technology to basically to get the job, which was plant
protection at General Motors. And you're basically a fireman, so
(03:17):
put in the applications. You know, bam there was with
a job at General Motors at eighteen, I mean that
someone could get a job out of high school that
would have them, you know, pretty much set up for life.
Situations like that were dwindling a number even back then,
so this was really a valuable position you had, which
sort of inadvertently made you a target for a particularly
(03:39):
unscrupulous person. What we figured out during the course of
this was the boss at GM, which is a management nonunion.
This guy was the head of security the five different
plants and GM and Dayton, and he had a friend
who he wanted to get the job. So he don't
(04:01):
like me now because I got the job. And this
guy would just stirring up crap with me and harassing
me and just you know, dalking down to me and everything.
But you know, subsequently we come to find out that
he was so mad about it. We've proven four times
in federal court that he was taken my information from
Jerre Motors to the police department he used to work at,
(04:23):
where his buddy was the head of the police department,
trying to get me hooked up on something. Wow, because
it's a union's shop. You just can't fire somebody because
you don't like him. You have to have, you know,
some kind of reason. That reason will be me getting
locked up and not showing up to work. And this
sinister fox name was Richard Wolf, who then did what
(04:44):
he had already done previously when he heard about the
crimes were about to talk about it. Now this was August.
There were two gruesome sex crimes, one on August five,
and then the second one involving two victims, was on August.
The second one was reported first though. There were twenty
two year old twin sisters. We're gonna call them c
(05:04):
W and b W. This is around seven seven pm
as they were getting into their car outside of the
Best Product store in Daton, Ohio, and they were kidnapped
by a lone gunman and then said that he was
a store security guard and his name was Roger. Yeah.
So the perpetrator sort of accused them of shoplifting, had
a gun and said you gotta come with me, pretending
(05:24):
like you know, I'm going to take you around the
little you know, mall cop police station we've got here
or whatever. Um. Instead, he takes them off into the woods.
When they got there, he exposed himself, bundled their breasts,
and forced them to perform oral sex on him. He
then blindfolded both women and forced them to lie down
in the backseat while he drove back to the Best
Products store. So there were some distinctive things that the
(05:44):
perpetrator said and did. Specifically, he would say things like,
you know, I'm a contract killer for the c I A.
I get a thousand dollars per hit. He had cigarettes,
you know, smoking. He mentioned at one point how he
does this to women because he was molested by his
grandfather when he was twelve. He said he was from
Corpus Christi, Texas. At one point he said he's from Columbus, Ohio.
He then fled with money from their purses, as well
(06:06):
as a lighter and a pack of cigarettes. Now here's
the thing. Like, these women reported this as all to
the police, and around the same time, a twenty eight
year old woman who were going to call sc totally
separate incident reported that a man wearing sunglasses and armed
with a chrome handgun abducted her same emo on August five. Yeah,
what happened is uh sc read the newspaper report of
what happened to the twins, you know, once she read
(06:28):
the similarities, and she decided she was going to come forward.
This woman said the attacker got into her car when
she came out of a store in a different shopping center.
This guy identified himself, according to her, as a security
guard and said his name was Roger. He ordered her
to drive behind a vacant building where he funneled her
breast and force or of perform oral sex. So it
was pretty clear to the police that the same guy
was responsible for all three victims in both events. Were
(06:50):
rape kits done? Was there any testing done on any
of this type of you know, whether zerological or other
biological evidence. The b w N C be a case
there was rape gets done on We know that for
for sure. You know, they collected semen on the sweater
of one of the victims, and there were hairs that
were collected, you know. Unfortunately, this was a eight you know,
(07:12):
before really DNA testing was known and widely used criminal investigations.
So the items in question that the perpetrator touched or
might have deposited biological material on were given back to
the victims by the police. So any chance for DNA
testing was sort of ruined, right, But no one even
knew that until much later when the Ohio Innestance Project
kind of involved. But in the immediate aftermath, there were
(07:33):
these hairs that they would eventually try to match with
suspects by using hair microscopy, which is a well known
junk science. But they've actually got to find the suspects first,
so they relied on a composite sketch from the detailed
descriptions that they had received from all three victims. And
the descriptions were consistent. Yeah, so they were a very
consistent all three victims. So he had his shirt unbuttoned
(07:55):
and you could see this big like rap medallion, very
dark tan. This was August. Had acne along the jaw line,
and he had very specific color of hair, is brown
with a reddish tent. And they described him as tall
and kind of a big guy, and something like between
one eight and two fifty. I think there was a
pretty broad range. The pant size that they one of
(08:15):
them provided was smaller would be a guy more like,
you know, pounds, two hundred pounds something like that. So Dean,
did any of those very specific details match. You know?
They said the guy who attacked him had a dark
sun tan. I'm very irish. I burned and I go
back to white. You know. The person who attacked him
did not have a hairy chest because of the medallion.
(08:38):
I got a bear suit on. I'm covered in hair.
The person who attacked him had severe acne scars on
both sides of his jaw line. I did not have
any of that stuff. The person who attacked him did
not have a cleft chin. I've got a cleft chin.
I started having gray hair on my temples in the
tenth grade, which is a feature that the victims would
(08:59):
have mentioned it have been you. And also I understand
that you have always hated cigarettes, absolutely hate cigarettes. My
dad smoked most of my life and I could I
can't stand smell them. So why am I even being
looked at as a suspect? And you had no idea
that your boss, Richard Wolfe had it out for you.
This bad I mean, on its face, the only thing
(09:20):
about this crime that has any connection to you was
the name Roger. Now your full name is Roger Dean Gillespie,
but you've always gone by Dean. But by the time
you had been considered for this crime, a lot of
time had passed by, the case had gone cold. So
since it wasn't fresh in the headlines, do we know
what prompted him to try to bring you in. No.
He says that he's seen a newspaper article on a
(09:42):
bulletin board in the plant, and he went down and said, hey,
check this guy out. And the first time that he
went down there, he was seeing the detectives who were
in charge of that case when it very first started,
so they knew the case inside. And now they looked
at my d m V or dry was license and
seeing that I didn't fit the description at all. They
(10:04):
knew the pant size, and when they looked at the
hide and weight on me, they knew I couldn't fit
in the pants, which I always say one time in
my life, being fat was good for me. Right, you
would think, yeah, so you know they've done a little
right up on it and disregarded me as a suspect,
and that was the end of it, you know with them. Yes,
(10:25):
so you know Dean was eliminated as a suspect. Time
went by. The detectives on the case who eliminated Dean retired,
moved out of state. After they left. My boss his
best friend who was the chief of police. The chief's
son was a detective. Now, so my boss he went
back with the same information and said, check this guy out.
(10:45):
I think that when he was talking to this young
new detective, with him being a ex police officer and
understand how the system works, he was able to convince
him that he was working on the right track and
in the right guy detectives out more twenty six years old,
takes over the case, and the filed eliminating Dean disappears
and we don't know what happened to it. And he
(11:06):
just decides, I'm gonna go out and show the victims
a photo spread with Dena and and you know, you
look at the photo spread, it's clear that the other
five came from the same source. Deans was glossy and
the other ones were matt He's got a different color background.
The victims that described the perpetrators having a wide face
to the picture used of Dean is like his face
is taking up the entire square, so it makes his
head look really big and his face wide, whereas the
(11:28):
other five are all like back more like Torso shots.
And so if you look at it, you go five
of these are fillers, which one doesn't fit clearly it's
this one. First off, I have no animosity toward the
victims in this case because they were done wrong and
they were lied to, just like I was. And you
got to remember, this case is to two and a
(11:49):
half years old, and studies show that you know when
it's a stranger rape, your ability to identify accurately decreases
steadily from the time it happens, and it's essentially down
to chance by eleven months. And so you're sticking a
photo spread up in front of somebody two years after
the fact with an extremely suggestive lineup. That's a very
dangerous situation. Yeah, I mean they were re victimized, right,
(12:10):
But now with the victims identifying you, they had what
they needed to get into rest warrant. Even though, as
we've already mentioned, other than the name Roger, you and
the assailant had very little in common. It's why the
initial lead detectives eliminated you as a suspect. And there's
more that they discovered that should have eliminated you again,
but tunnel vision and no. Perhaps maybe the detective Scott More,
(12:34):
feeling some kind of twisted obligation to his father's best friend,
may have been why they continued their pursuit of you. Dean.
I mean, when did you first find out that you
were being targeted in this way? I got a letter
called a demand letter to come into the police department,
and because I'm a dumbass, I went in and he
(12:56):
questioned me about these incidents. Where were you add on
this day? Which was two years before. Who knows where
they were at two years ago, But because I didn't know,
he felt like I wasn't answering his questions. So weeks
later is when they came to the house. They tore
my house apart. You know, they're supposed to be a
gun involved and everything else. I didn't have guns. There
(13:16):
was no clothing or anything that even even came close
to the type of attire this person was wearing. Okay,
so that you're arrested and taking out in jail, we
go through the arrangement and everything. They reduced the bond
down enough for me to get out, and I am
in a frantic mode to try to figure out where
I was at during this time. And I was very
(13:37):
lucky enough to have two friends who kept calendars of events.
You know, I was in Morehead, Kentucky on one of
the days of these crimes that took place with my friends.
We were skin and fishing and just having fun at
the lake, and the other one we were with some
friends who came in from college and we were out
with them. Unfortunately, alibi witnesses are often easily explained it
(14:00):
away by the prosecution as people who are willing to
lie for you, including about your ability to tan. They
had photographic evidence of how it would have been impossible
for you to tan, but it had no effect, nor
did pointing out all the other discrepancies, amongst so many
other tactics. During pre child your defense tried to suppress
the identifications for the same reasons we had mentioned earlier,
(14:20):
which is how outrageously suggested the lineups were. It's harder
to get these things suppressed even when they're suggestive. We
see this a lot. The current case law by the
Supreme Court is completely out of date, doesn't reflect science,
and that needs a change eventually. But yeah, that they
allowed it in and they allowed identification, So I want
our audience to take notice. Here these are the steps
that our guests, usually incompetent attorneys, did not take. That
(14:43):
you might be telling yourself that you'd make sure that
you and your lawyer would take. But it still made
no difference to judge allowed in the ideas, and the
jury was not moved by the alibi witnesses nor any
of the discrepancies between Dean and the assailant, so he
was found guilty. But war sentencing, a defense investigator learned
that Hair is recovered from the victims that were said
(15:04):
to have been lost had not only not been lost,
but the crime lab had actually tested them against Dean
and excluded him. They found some hairs that had been
on the victim's sweaters from the August event with the twins,
and they did not belong to Dean Glisbie, and so
he got a new trial where they could introduce that
the hair is found on the victims did not belong
to Dan Glisbean. Right. This seemed compelling at the time,
(15:25):
but hair microscopy is shaky science. At best. You might
be able to eliminate someone from inclusion, but making a
match with any degree of certainty is total horseship. It
could be said that practitioners of this junk science might
be willing to say anything, but this is the state's evidence,
and given the opportunity, they still didn't try to budge
the evidence and fix it on Dean. But the idea
(15:48):
that he could simply not have physically been the man
they were describing should have been enough on top of
his alibi, for which they were over twenty witnesses. So Dean,
what do you number about? The second trial? Things got
weird because one of my friends is a pretty proficient smartass.
And when the bar esecutor asked him, do you know
(16:13):
Roger Gillespie, he said, I sure do, and he said
he is in the courtroom and he said he sure is,
and he said, will you pointing him out to us,
and he said, he's the guy in the back sitting
with the gray haired lady, which was my mom and dad.
Because my name is Roger Dean Gillespie, my whole entire life.
The only name I've ever used is Dean Gillespie. My
(16:35):
dad is Roger. All my friends, some of didn't even
know that my first name was Roger. So when he
got off the stand, the prosecutor went to a sidebar.
We had twenty two other people to testify for me
and complain that all these people grew up with me,
they knew me my whole life, and they were going
to life for me. And they cut all of the
(16:55):
rest of the witnesses on my side. That's is that legal.
It worked. Then there was more than just these witnesses
that he had an extreme dislike for cigarettes. They had
pictures of him before all this happened inside his truck
on the dashboard. He had to thank you for not
smoking plastic sticker, like a bumper sticker. He's stuck on
his dashboard and he's like the most irish whitest guy ever.
(17:18):
I mean, you know, you have these pictures of him
before all this happened, where he's out at lakes with
all his friends and they're in boats and their skin
and then you know they'd be in drinking beers that
night and everybody's really tan, and he's like beat red,
even though he had sunscreen on and a T shirt,
so he he literally cannot tan. On top of that,
he's somebody. It's a family trade that had been going
gray since ninth grade. In high school. They called him
(17:39):
the silver fox, and the victims were very specific that
it was brown with a reddish tan. He didn't have
a reddish tent. And they were asked on the stand
did he have any gray, and they all said no.
There was all this evidence, and sure enough it resonated
with the jury. I think it was two days they deliberated,
and they am out eight to four, eight for acquittal,
(18:02):
four for conviction, and the judge told him to go
to lunch and come back and study on it some more.
They came back out again at eight to four. You know,
it's it's actually kind of amazing that the jury was
eight four for acquittal when you have three victims on
the stand crying who were actually raped, and you have
all that emotion and they're saying, I'm a positive that's
(18:24):
the guy. That guy is getting convicted, even if there's
all these things that don't match. So you know the
fact that they were eight to four to acquit at
the beginning, it shows you how bad the case was
against him. And then the judge gives him what's called
a dynamite charger and alan charge and sends them back.
And this is what happened after that. He said, I
have a fishing trip. I don't want to be here.
(18:45):
If you don't reach a verdict, you're going to be
sequestered until you do, which means you are going to
leave here to a hotel, no contact, and we will
come back in until you reach a verdict. Forty forty
five minutes later, they just came back, said all upset,
gilly And like I said, I grew up in in
(19:22):
just a great, beautiful world, and I go into a
close maximum security prison where se of these people are
never getting out your life means nothing to them. The
violence is overwhelming. You know, I've been in bar fights
or whatever as a kid, but I've never seen anything
(19:43):
like this. You know, when you're in prison and you
get into a fight, you're fighting for your life. Every
time they want to test you. Soon as you get
in there, what are you gonna do? You know, you're
gonna be a punk and give your stuff every commissary time,
and everything you own is gonna be taken by some
body where you're gonna fight. Luckily, and I was a
big enough guy, and I was very very well first
(20:05):
and fighting, and that helped me a little bit. But
still get your ass beat. You know. I started reading
a lot, and I started doing artwork and listen to
a lot of music and try to stay out of
the way the best I could. And somehow or other,
you did, and you managed to figure out how to
not only survive, but to fight, to continue to fight
and what was really not just an uphill battle but
(20:26):
a virtually hopeless battle. I mean, you've seen the worst
of what they could do to a person, and yet
you managed to continue to advocate for yourself. You know,
my mom fought and fought and fought and as she
was not giving up on nothing, so I never lost hope.
I always knew that I was coming out there because
(20:47):
I didn't do this. They would file a brief file
emotion and then you know, you wait and you get
all excited about it, and then you get denied and
that crushes you. And you start talking to these lawyers
and they start explaining to you, Oh, we're gonna do this,
and we're gonna do this, so you you get a
little bit more hope, and it's like, well, how long
is that going to take? Well, you know it's not
(21:08):
gonna happen overnight, so you know, the years just start
clicking off while you're filing these motions and they keep
getting denied, to the point of I said, do not
send me these motions no more. I don't want to
read them. I don't want to see them because I
get too hyped up. I just want to get my
mind into a state where it's the same every day
(21:28):
and not keep doing this up and down thing. I
tried to clear my mind every day and then start
the next day to be as positive and as happy
as I could be every day, just to try to
keep my sanity until you wanted the senor people. I know,
maybe I'm missing something. But and then in two thousand
and three, you get a break when the Ohio Innistance
Project began representing you. Right. So in November of two
(21:51):
thousand two, I got hired as a law professor teach
criminal law at the University of Cincinnati College of Law.
But I wasn't gonna start until the following year when
classes start August of two thousand three. And John Cranley
was a city councilman at that time in Cincinnati. He
later became the mayor, and he wanted to do something
positive with his law degree in addition to be a
city councilman. So he was trying to start an innocence
(22:12):
project at you see law school. Couldn't get the dean
to bite, couldn't get any professors to bite. So I
get hired, and I have been a prosecutor by this
point in time. I was very bought into the idea
that people are wrongfully convicted and we need to make
some reforms in the system. So when he approaches me
and says, I've been trying to get this school to
start one will you help run it with me? And
I'm like, yeah, let's do it. So we have our
first fundraiser shortly after I was hired. It was November
(22:34):
of two thousand and two, and there's some newspaper coverage
of that fundraiser. And in January, one of Gollispie, Dean's mom,
before I even had started at you See Law, before
we'd officially launched the Innocence project, she tracks me down.
It comes to my office with a big box of
files and says, you know you're gonna take this case.
It starts like pitching it to me. He's my son's innocent.
(22:54):
He didn't do this. So it was literally the first
one we were looking into. Our first angle and we
started looking at the case in two thousand three was
to see if there was any DNA to test, and
there were some hairs that were collected off of the
victim's sweaters, but it turns out that most of them
belonged to them. We did do DNA testing on those,
but they were irrelevant. They didn't match Dean, they didn't
match anybody. Most of them were the victim's own hairs.
(23:16):
There was no semen that was actually preserved that we
could test, even though there was some of the crime scene.
You know, we tried to see if there was anything. Again,
our history tells us that they'll say things are destroyed,
but when you really dig in, sometimes you'll find the
semen even though they said they destroyed it. But in
this case, it really was destroyed. There was nothing we
could do other than the hairs, which turned out to
be uneventful. So now without the easier of the irrefutable
(23:38):
smoking gun evidence seminal DNA in a rape case, you
had to buckle in and prove it with a more
full investigation. And Dean's case, because it's just so monstrously egregious,
there was plenty of it, including a more likely suspect
during the initial investigation, which was a guy named Kevin Copp.
(23:59):
So at some point after Dean was convicted, a phone
call had come into I believe his attorney's office. Somebody
had made an anonymous phone call saying the guy who
committed these crimes, his name is Kevin Cobb. It was
like a notation to that effect in the file. And
this person wouldn't give their name. They said, you know,
I worked with him at a correctional institute, but he's
the one who committed these crimes. At Dean Gillispie's in
(24:21):
So we start investigating Kevin Cobb. First thing we do
is get his rap sheet. He has a history of
pretending to be a police officer, flashing a badge and
committing crimes. And you start looking into those cases. You
know he's arrested in this year of domestic violence. So
we go pull that file and we can get the
name of the female victim. So we start going and
talking to some of these ex girlfriends and stuff, and
(24:41):
what do we find out. He would get drunk and
tell people he's a contract killer for the CIA, gets
a thousand dollars per hit. He told one girlfriend I
was molested by my grandfather when I was twelve. He
tells people he's from Columbus, Ohio and Corpus Christie, Texas.
In fact, he had been stationed in the Marines at
Corpus Christie for a while, exactly what the rapists said.
We talked to people who knew him back at the
(25:03):
same time of these crimes, to the point of going
to his high school getting his senior year book, tracking
down people that had lived in that town and knew
him around the same age. We found incidents of him
wearing a medallion. Around the same year Flashing of Badge
pretending to be a cop. We found incidents of him
using the name Roger. We heard the history of how
he developed that fake name. There was a mentally challenged
(25:26):
young man in their town named Roger who would walk
around town and Kevin Cobb would make fun of him,
would imitate them and say I'm Roger, you know, mimicking
Roger's voice, And when he was acting crazy, he would
take on this Roger persona. So we had incidents where
he would commit crimes Flash of Badge and use the
name Roger, and then we get a picture of him
from and composite sketches are usingly not very accurate, but
(25:50):
it looks just like the composite sketch. We found out
from the people who knew him that he got very
tan in the summer, he was a smoker. Everything just
matched up. It was uncanny. In Ohio Corrections, Officer Jesus Christ,
I mean almost all of the villains in this story
are part of the system. And I say almost because
not only did the initial investigators Fritz and Bailey do
(26:12):
the right thing, but now in the lead up to
filing the two thousand and seven post conviction filing, the
former Ohio Attorney General Jim Pietro actually joined Dean's legal team.
The main allegations were the Kevin Cobb, but also the
fact that the original investigation had eliminated Dean. We were
able to talk to Fritz and Bailey, who told us
all about the original investigation. They gave us affidavits they
(26:34):
had created reports eliminating Dean as a suspect. They talked
about the pants sized discrepancy everything else, that those had disappeared.
The jury had never heard about them. So there were
multiple claims that we filed in two thousand seven. So
things now appear to be looking up. After all, you
had the super compelling alternative suspect evidence about Kevin Cobb.
In addition to Jim Pietro and your team, the original
(26:55):
detective Fritz and Bailey were on board in supporting the
Brady claim that all of their work from the initial
investigation had been disappeared or gone missing and therefore was
not shared with the defense. It seems like you finally
really had momentum on your side. The judge that Dean
had at that time, who had taken over for the
trial judge his name was A. J. Wagner, and we
could not have drawn a worse judge. Extremely hostile to
(27:17):
the idea that somebody could be wrongfully convicted that eye
witness it can be wrong, extremely hostile to basically us.
And we presented the evidence and he denied it outright
without a hearing, so we had to appeal. The appellate
court denied us on the Brady claim, which is the
missing file, but said that the judge should have had
a hearing on Kevin Cobb. So at that point the
(27:39):
case breaks in half. The Brady claims since we lost
in the Court of Appeals, continues up the appellate chain
to the House Supreme Court, and that the Kevin Cobb
part of it is sent back down the lower step
to the trial court for a hearing, which is like
a trial. And we'll catch up with the Brady potion
of the case in a bit, but first you've got
to go back to the trial court with the Kevin
Cobb issue in front of this uper hostile judge. Again,
(28:01):
just to show you what type of judge J. J.
Wagner was, There was a whole other part of the
case where Dean on the August twentie incident, was actually
camping in Kentucky with friends, and when his investigator had
gone down to try to get the receipts to show
he had been camping that weekend, they were missing. So
of course they crossed. Examined more on the stand during
the trial and he's like, no, I never went down there.
(28:23):
I never took those receipts. When it became public we
were working on the case, a cop reached out to
us who said, I actually know that he did go
down there, because he admitted it to me. And we
tried to get an affidavit from him, and the officer said,
I can't cross the blue line like that. I just
want you to know you're on the right track. And
at that point I started secretly recording this officer. So
when we go to file for Dean in two thousand
(28:44):
and seven, we attached affidavit's saying what this guy had
said to us. What they file a response and they
get this cop to say I never said that they're lying,
blah blah blah blah blah. On our reply brief we
go we got you on tape talking about it. So A. J.
Wagner denies us on that claim again, we don't have
a hearing nothing. And after it's over and the case
goes to a Court of Appeals, I get a call
(29:04):
saying A. J. Wagner wants to have a status conference.
So I'm thinking, why does he want a status conference?
The cases in the Court of Appeals? Now, this is
like not even his jurisdiction. So we get on this
teleconference on the phone, the prosecutors on the phone, and
Jim Petro's on the phone, and A J. Wagner goes, oh,
thanks everybody for coming together. Um, yeah, I just wanted
to get the parties together because Professor Godsey secretly recorded
(29:24):
a police officer without his knowledge, which is a federal crime.
And I'm letting everybody know that I'm turning the evidence
over to federal prosecutors. And then there was this like
awkward pause and Jim Petro goes, Judge, it's not a
federal crime to secretly record a police officer. It's legal
in Ohio. And then Judge Wagner goes, Dan, what's the
name of the prosecutor? Is that your view? Yeah, Judge,
(29:46):
I don't think it's illegal, and A J. Wagner goes, well,
I'll look into it a little bit, Mark, let me
and it just hangs up the phone and I never
hear anything about it again. That shows you what kind
of judges we sometimes deal with. An A. J Agner's
about as bad as the kids. Yeah, So the Brady
(30:16):
claim was still being litigated in the background as the
Kevin Cobb issue was being sent back down to the
trial court. And now A. J. Wagner was expected to
be impartial when he was being forced by the appelic
court to hear all of the evidence that you had
compiled on Kevin Cobb, especially after he had embarrassed himself
in front of his colleagues and the federal prosecutorcy he
had spoken to about indicting Mark right, and this guy
(30:40):
is your judge. So we had a hearing in front
of A. J. Wagner, which is like a trial. That's
what we call witnesses. They come and testify about Kevin Cobb.
You know, we call these ex girlfriends, these people that
Kevin Cobb had committed crimes against who talked about He
used the name Roger, He flashed a badge, you know,
he was very tan. He claimed to be a contract
killer for the c I A all those things I
(31:01):
talked about that make an uncanny match from Kevin Cobb
to the this crime, and then Judge Wagner summarily dismissed it.
So we then appealed that back up to the Court
of Appeals. Meanwhile, the half that we lost on the
Brady claim and the appellate court, we appealed to the
highest Supreme Court, where we lost. At that point, since
it was a constitutional claim Brady, that gave us jurisdiction
(31:22):
to take the case into what's called federal habeas, So
we filed a federal habeas petition. So this Brady issue
that the initial detective Fritz and Bailey had ruled Dean
out as a suspect and the file was hidden from
the defense. They received a hearing and federal court on
this issue. In front of Judge Michael Myrs. Fritz and
Bailey testified again about all the physical discrepancies that they
(31:42):
had written a report about the hair, the skin, the
cleft chin, the pants couldn't have fit, so you must
have quit. In addition, they were suspicious of Wolf's tip,
calling it quote unquote particularly unreliable because the composite sketch
had been posted at the gm plant since shortly after
the assaults, but Wolf only went to the police after
a nasty fight resulting in Dean being fired. So they
(32:05):
wrote this report about Dean not being a viable suspect
and it was never seen by the defense, along with
the campground receives that the chief's son, Scott More never
turned over either. And the decision came down on December six,
two thousand eleven. You know in this day and age,
when they issue a decision, the email it an email
had come from the federal court, and I see that
(32:25):
we won the case. He threwout Dean's conviction based on
the Brady claim. So I immediately drive up to Dayton,
which is only about forty five minutes from Cincinnati. I
don't tell anybody, and I knock on the door of
Dean's mom and dad want to and Roger Glispie years
but we won Dean's case. What judge merged throughout the
(32:47):
Oh my God, come in here and have a seat.
(33:09):
This is the sound, the heart wrenching sound of a
mother's grief. But it all means that her boy was
finally coming home after so many years lost. And it
took about a week for you to get out. You
were released on bond with an ankle monitor just in
time for the holidays. The US Marshall came and got me.
(33:30):
It was December twenty two, so everyone was basically shut
down and closing up for the holidays. So she picks
me up and I'm like, where's everybody at what's going on?
She goes right down the road. So we drive down
the road to a bowling alley right around a corner
from the prison. You could actually see the place from
the wreck yard on the back side of the prison
(33:51):
when you're walking the track, and uh, I go into
this bowling alley. All my families there, all my friends,
the media was everywhere. One of them asked me, how
does it feel to be free? And I'm like, I'm
looking around the room and I knew all these people
that were bowling because they were guards from the prison.
(34:12):
It was Gardens League bowling night from the prison. And
it's like, oh my god, man, am i at am
I free? Or am I in purgatory? It was very
much of legal purgatory because yeah, you were released, but
you were wearing an ankle monitor and the case had
not been officially dismissed. Meanwhile, the other issue of the
alternative suspect Kevin Cobb, that was still being litigated. Now,
(34:34):
last we checked, A. J. Wagner had just denied you
on that issue, and your team appealed to the decision.
Four months later, in April of two thousand twelve, we
went in the Court of Appeals on Kevin Cobb. So
he's like double released. He's the only exonore I know
of in the country that was exonerated twice on two
totally independent grounds, Like if you take away the Brady,
he still would have been exonerated on Kevin Cobb. If
(34:55):
you take away Kevin Cobby still would have been exonerated
on Brady, and they're totally independent of one another. So
he was like a double exhoneration. So the state would
have to fight this on two fronts in order to
get you back in and considering the evidence in this,
a normal person would just let this go right. So
you guys filed to have the charges dismissed and that
was dragged out until two thousand fifteen when Montgomery Court
(35:16):
of common Please Judge Stephen Dankoff granted the motion to
dismissed the indictment. The state appealed. It dragged it out
for another two years to July seventeen, so almost six
years later, the decision was finally upheld and the case
was dismissed. That was the federal side, the Brady violation,
(35:36):
that was in the federal court, and that's what got
dismissed there, and then we had an alternate suspect and
the state court. I didn't get officially all the way
done until December nine of ten years. I mean not
only your time, but their time, which actually belongs to
(35:57):
the taxpayers and in the public. I mean, considering all
the ship that we all now know about this case,
like why continue this charade? And you gotta look at
the money. You gotta look at the money that was wasted.
It was just, you know, wasted on frivolous nothingness, Like
what are you doing right? And think of all the
(36:19):
better things they could have been doing with their time
and our money. You know, I can't imagine that a
single one of their constituents wants this done in their name.
This was the alternative suspect part of the case. We're
not positive that Kevin Cobb was the assailant, but the
evidence certainly pointed in his direction and continuing to try
to maintain Dean's conviction. They just doubled down on letting
(36:42):
whoever the actual sailant was, go free and stay free.
Another thing that I can bet that all of their
constituents would be firmly opposed to. But now you've finally
been fully exonerated, and there's a bitter sweetness to this
part of the story. You pursued Miami Township Police Department
as well as the tech have got more civilly right
for the civil suit. In November of twenty two, we
(37:06):
started a week of preparation for the federal civil suit.
We went through a two week trial. The PTSD was
off the charts for me. It was just unbelievable to
sit through all that. But we get through it and
the judge sent him back to deliberate, and they deliberated
about three hours. They asked one question and that was
(37:28):
do legal fees come out of damages? And then we knew, like, oh, ship,
they're on the right track. They went to lunch and
then came back sent us in the court and uh.
Then they got to the money amount um of damages
and it was it was a shot around the world
at forty five million dollars. Yeah, I mean, obviously no
(37:52):
amount of money would ever give you that time back.
But you know it is the largest verdict in Ohio
state history. Correct. Yeah, I wouldn't do it again for
a hundred million dollars. You couldn't say, in n We're
gonna send you to prison for twenty years for a
hundred million dollars. I wouldn't do it. First, you got
to survive the twenty years. You know, there is no
way in the world any money, you know, send me
(38:14):
back to years old. Do that. You know, keep your
money and put me back in that era. But you
know that you can't get it back. And that was
one of my things with the PTSD and the court
was when they talked about the amount of time and
they would always say you, you can never get that back.
And when I'm sitting there, it is just like smacking
(38:36):
me in the face, like my God, it's gone. It's
and it it isn't coming back. This this here is
not gonna make that come back. I mean, I've got
a lot of things i want to do, got car
building on my mind. I'm doing one now, and just
things like that. I'm setting up a trust from my
great niece who seven, you know, to hopefully, you know,
make this money grow into something that would be a legacy.
(38:58):
But uh, definitely going to be supporting our Ohio project.
I'd like to encourage our audience to support the Ohio
Innocence Project. We're gonna have it linked in the bio
because without them, Dean would not be out here with
us along with so many others. Yeah, I was. I
was the first case the how instance project took person.
(39:20):
We got out and the artists are twenty year anniversary.
We've got thirty nine people out well, Mark, you, Jennifer,
the whole crew. You're all doing phenomenal work. And here's
the next thirty nine. And now we go to the
closing of our show. So of course this is called
closing arguments. I love this segment and I love it
(39:44):
because it's a part where I get to, first of all,
thank YouTube for being here and sharing this incredible, incredible
story with me and our our amazing audience. And so
how this works is I'm gonna turn my microphone off,
kick back in my chair with my headphones on, close
my eyes, and just listen to any closing thoughts that
you guys want to share Mark, why don't you start?
(40:05):
And Dean, you take us off into the sunset. A
grave injustice occurred against Dean. Grave injustices and unfairness occurred
to people all the time. And you can say, well,
you know, how can we take this and how can
he get complete vindication? And you can dream of the
steps that you would go through to win your case
(40:25):
to get free two then you know, win some huge
settlement right in the face of the cop who did
this to you. That's like the movie Shawshank Redemption, where
he gets his revenge and and everything turns out the
way it should. In real life, that doesn't happen. It
never happens the way it should. But in Dean's case
it did. And you know, we sat in prison and
(40:46):
talked about his wrongful conviction all the way back in
two thousand three and two thousand four, and it looked
like such a long shot to get this overturned, and
everything that should have happened to vindicate him just happened
like a Hollywood story. And and I'm so happy for him.
I wish this. I wish other people who have had
these rawful convictions happened to them. Could have the Hollywood
story play out the way it has. People always ask
(41:08):
what is the fix, What is the fix. I don't
know that there's a fix. I feel like we need
term limits on prosecutors. We need to figure out this
system where the judge has put in place, like the
federal system, because when you have a judge's gonna be
on your television saying I'm gonna be tough on crime,
(41:29):
he's already formulating an opinion, so he's biased to start with.
I think that's a start in this. But we've got
other issues with this problem, and that is the folks
who are in states that don't get compensated. They also
don't get credit for Social Security, and that is a
(41:50):
huge issue for folks who are gonna have to work
the rest of their life. We need to try to
figure out a fix for that. I know it's uh
that that's a huge undertaking and complicated thing, but we
gotta have compensation across America. Until then, we need to
fix the sof security so so folks can not have
to work their whole life because they spent time in
prison and didn't pay in And thank god for the
(42:11):
Innocence Project, thank God for the Berry and Peter you know,
the projects all across America. And you know, I can't
never say enough about Mark Gazzi saved my life, and
the and the kids who work in our program with
the University of Cincinnati Law School. Just you know, support
these organizations because this this is still going on, This
is still happening. The man just got out of Arizona
(42:33):
with fifty three years in so this can't keep going.
You can't keep happening. We've got to fix this problem.
Thank you for listening to Ronful Conviction. I'd like to
thank our production team Connor Hall, Cheff Clyvern and Kevin Wardis.
(42:53):
With research by Lila Robinson. The music in this production
was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.
Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,
on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and on Twitter at
wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On
all three platforms. You can also follow me on both
(43:13):
TikTok and Instagram at It's Jason Flom. Wrongful Conviction is
the production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with
Signal Company Number one
Hosts And Creators
Lauren Bright Pacheco
Maggie Freleng
Jason Flom
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