March 16, 2023 • 33 mins
In 1999, Brian Neirynck and Roberta Smedley separated and got into a custody battle over their three-year-old son. In June of the following year, Smedley reported to the South Bend, IN police that Neirynck molested their son. The boy failed to implicate his father, and only after many leading and suggestive therapy sessions, did he say the abuse happened. Despite no physical signs of molestation, Neirynck was arrested, tried, and convicted of sexually assaulting his own son. He was sentenced to 30 years in prison.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, it's Jason, just letting you know that Wrongful Conviction
is going to take a short hiatus. Wrongful Conviction with
Maggie Freeling will continue to drop every Monday, but after today.
The next new episode of Wrongful Conviction with Yours Truly
will drop on Thursday, April thirteenth. However, if you want
to begin hearing new episodes one week early, you can
subscribe to our feed through Apple Plus. All subscribers will
(00:24):
hear new episodes of all of our podcasts add free,
one week before everybody else. So get in the know
one week early with an Apple Plus subscription. Brian Derrick
and Roberta Smedley met in Plymouth, Indiana in nineteen eighty four,
and before long they were inseparable. Two years later they
(00:45):
had a son, Michael Scott. By the time the boy
was almost three years old, the relationship had con sour.
Roberta kicked Brian out of the house, got a restraining order,
and cleaned out his bank account. Eventually, a bitter custody
battle ensued. In June of two thousand, after the boy
had returned from a visit with Brian, Roberta reported to
(01:05):
police that Michael Scott had told her that he had
been molested by his father. The Department of Child Services
investigated the allegations. Brian's visitation rights were suspended and Michael
Scott was sent to play therapy. Three years later, at trial,
Roberta and the therapist repeated the accusations against Brian. Michael Scott,
now six years old, testified to say that his father
(01:28):
had in fact done what his mother had alleged. Brian's
only defense was to say that he loved his son
and would never heard of against the testimony of an
impressionable child. Three years worth of notes and videotape therapy
sessions probably helped nothing of interest to the jury. But
this is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to ronfal Conviction. Today's
(02:03):
story comes to us from Saint Joseph's County, Indiana, and
it's about one of the most horrific things that anyone
can imagine as a parent. And I'm speaking as a parent,
but this would be horrific to any normal human person.
I'm talking about the crime of child molestation. And the
thing is it never happened. It was a story cooked
(02:26):
up as ammunition for a custody battle, and unfortunately, an
innocent child was used to bolster the charge by being
groomed to testify against his own father. That's the real
child abuse. By the way, our guest today is Brian Rick. Brian,
welcome to ROLFU conviction. Thank you. And also with us
is Cynthia Carter, Indiana clminal defense attorney and self described
(02:47):
recovering public defender who was Brian's post conviction attorney. So
Cynthia welcome, Thank you. Jason. Really great to be here. Brian.
Let's start with you. Where did you grow up? Right
outside of South ben Indiana, little town called Walkerton. It
was just a small town. My family could have been
considered lower middle class, good family structure, mom, dad, brother,
(03:11):
And then around nineteen eighty four you started seeing Roberta Smedley.
Where did you two meet at the Blueberry Festival in Plymouth, Indiana.
We were together I think six years overall. For the
most part, it was always good. And a couple of
years later you found out that Roberta was pregnant. Were
you excited about becoming a father? Yeah, it was great.
(03:31):
I was looking forward to being a dad. You know,
it's every boy's dream. I assume every boy's dream it
was mine through the pregnancy. I went to every one
of the doctor meetings, birthing class, and I was there
when he was born. It was the greatest thing ever
in my life. So now you, Roberta, and your son
(03:52):
Michael Scott are a family, and for all intents and purposes,
it sounds like life was going pretty well for a while, right.
I mean, you had a steady job and we're building
a life together. I was working in a machine shop
as a machinist assembler and going to work every day,
ten to twelve hour days and coming home every night
to my family. Michael Scott and I had a great relationship.
(04:14):
I mean I was always involved in his life. He
was the center of my life. And one day I
come home from work and she tells me you've got
to get out. And I said, what do you mean
I got to get out? She says, well, I got
a restraining order against you and you've got to move out.
This just came out of the blue, without any warning
at all. Do you have any idea what that was
(04:36):
all about. She just always got whatever she wanted, and
you know, she wanted a child and she got it
and then got rid of me. So I ended up
going out to my dad's and staying with him until
I finally got an apartment. And when my ex girlfriend
came back into my life and his life, and she
(04:57):
just adored Michael Scott. Yeah, your girlfrien, Judy. So Michael
Scott was around three years old at this point and
living with his mother full time. But you and Roberta
had worked out some kind of visitation agreement, right. I
was there every Wednesday and every other weekend. I had
him and we did everything we could together. We'd fill
the car up with balloons. I had a four door
(05:18):
of Crown Victoria and we'd go down the road and
roll the windows down and the balloons would fly around
and fly out. It was wonderful. Michael Scott loved being
with me. I bought a house Judy and I moved
into it. It was a nice two story house. Michael
Scott would come over. He had his own bedroom. He
(05:39):
had a walk in closet that we were sitting there
with markers and ride all over the walls, threw the
ball up and down the steps, and like I said,
I thought we had it going on. It was more
stable than his house, you know. He would always say
mom's going out drinking or mom was drunk. So around
this time when you decide to hire a lawyer, Greg
(06:01):
Blandford and push for full custody of your son, I
wanted to have him with me, and I thought it
was better for him to be with Judy and I,
you know, I felt it was more safe. At one point,
Roberta had sent my mom a picture of Michael Scott
and it was a picture of Michael Scott and his
(06:22):
little buddy Max, and they were both drinking a beer.
So I presented that to the court. I think that's
what flipped her switch to make up all these lies.
And in June two thousand and that's when you find
out just what kind of lies she'd be willing to
make up. And I come home from work one day
and Judy meets me at the door and she says,
(06:45):
get in the house. She says, there's a warrant for
your arrest. And I said for what She says, They
said that you did something to Michael Scott. Right. The
police report was June second, two thousand and the police
talked to Roberta and she reported that the child had
(07:06):
reported that Brian was doing things to him and that
he didn't like his father's pepe, And so I called
my family attorney, the one that was worked with me
to get custody, and he says, they're allegating that you
did something to Michael Scott sexually. And I said, that's impossible, Greg,
it didn't happen. He says, well, this is what's happening.
(07:28):
These are really serious allegations, of course, but initially there
was a wide gap between what Roberta alleged that Michael
Scott had said and what Michael Scott was actually saying.
So then I find out that what he's saying is doggie,
Dad and grass. That's all he was saying. I mean,
it was nothing. Everybody's just kind of laughing about this
(07:51):
because they know Brian. They know this isn't possible. This
was all craziness. When these kinds of allegations are level,
Department of Children Services or DCS must get involved by law.
And there was a physical examination done too, and they
didn't notice any injury to the child, just some redness
(08:12):
and there was no internal examination done, but there were
no injuries to Brian's son. Michael Scott was interviewed by
a therapist at a child abuse investigation center called the
Casey Center. They interviewed Michael Scott and he says, my
dad don't do nothing to me. I mean, this was
on video and they're trying to get him to say something.
(08:33):
Is not saying anything. So these sessions were videotaped, but
Brian's attorney never even reviewed them or presented to the
court during his trial. But this is what we know now,
So it sounds like the allegations were not being made
by the alleged victim, Michael Scott, but rather just coming
from the mind of Roberta. Nevertheless, Brian's visitation rights were
(08:54):
suspended and he wasn't allowed to see his son. Then
in October two thousand, they stopped the investigation because thing
had really come out of it. But it sounds like
Roberta was still not anywhere nearer letting up with her story.
It's interesting because the allegations actually evolved over time. When
the mother first spoke to the police, she said she
(09:15):
was wiping the child after he went to the bathroom
and the child supposedly said, don't put your finger there,
that hurts. And then the things that Brian mentioned about
Daddy dog grass. So that's what led to the initial
physical examination. Well, then come November of two thousand, the
(09:37):
allegation changed. Then the allegation was that he put his
pep in my mouth. So that was a totally different
allegation than what was made in the first place. That
went on for over a year, just those allegations, and
then the other warrant came up that says, oh, we
have enough. They want to grand jury, we have enough
(09:58):
to try him criminal. During that year, unbeknownst to you,
Michael Scott was being sent to this place called Holy
Cross Counseling Center for play therapy once a week, where
they were basically feeding him the story that ROBERTA made
up that his daddy had been touching him and doing
things to him. Basically, let's call it what it was,
(10:19):
brainwashing and indoctrinating this poor little child with all of
these horrible lies about anal and oral sex. There absolutely
wasn't doctor nation that was going on. And the whole
time that this play therapy, it wasn't just therapy therapy,
it was play therapy. Brian was not allowed to see
(10:40):
his son. The child was being groomed to testify against Brian.
There was definitely some leading questions, and they even went
so far as to give him a power badge and
a policeman ring, and it was suggested that this was
going to help him tell the truth. According to the
notes anyway, from the therapy, they even gave him bad
(11:04):
guy spray to put on the windows. I think by
the time the trial came around, he wasn't even calling
his father dad anymore. You called him Brian, and the
expert witnesses that we used said that that was evidence
of demonization of the person. But none of these notes
from the quote unquote play therapy and those videotapes that
we mentioned earlier, none of that ever was brought up
(11:26):
in the trial. The judge didn't know about them, the
jury never heard about them. Why in the world is
that the public defender that handled Brand's case didn't obtain
those notes. He did not even put the bare minimum
of effort, no subpoena, no nothing. And later on we'll
hear the story of how you dug up all of
these records. So let's get back to initial proceedings. On
(11:48):
October twenty nine, two thousand and one, you were indicted
by a grand jury on two counts of child molestation
Class a oral sodomy, which at the time was the
highest level felony short of murder and Class C, which
is finally you're arrested, then let out on a five
thousand dollar bond, and a public defender. Brian May was
designed to represent you at trial. Well, Judy and I
(12:09):
we tried getting ahold of Brian May to set up
meetings so that I could get with him. You know,
in forty one times I called him and never got
an answer, never got a reply. Finally I was allowed
a visit with him, but I went in with all
these notes, but everything that I had on my notes,
he was just blown it away. No, that don't matter,
(12:31):
that doesn't matter, This doesn't matter far as I know,
That's all that he had to go on in my
case was my notes. I only met with him, I believe,
two times before the trial. And we should also mention
that your lawyer from the Custos dispute, Greg Blamford, had
continually offered to help Brian May with these criminal charges.
He was, of course intimately acquainted with your case and
(12:55):
well aware of a bird's mindset, but apparently his offer
was ignored. The I'll started in January two thousand and
three at Saint Joseph County Superior Court, and again Brian
was being tried on two felony counts of sexual assault
of his own son, who by now six years old.
So the state presented evidence from Linda Taylor, who was
(13:15):
the second play therapist. They presented evidence from the mother,
the Casey Center lady, but not the videos. The videos
would have actually been helpful to Brian. I think I
don't believe his public defender ever even looked at the videos,
because I had to obtain those on my own. And
(13:35):
the public defender not only did he not investigate the case,
he didn't cross examine the witnesses. I believe Linda Taylor
was not asked one single question on cross examination, which
just blows my mind. Yeah, this defense attorney, Brian May,
he did no discovery and now he's not cross examining.
Was he just unable to handle his caseload or was
(13:58):
he like maybe the prosecution's payroll. I mean, was this
guy doing anything at all to help you a trial? Well,
my trial was a three day trial and he fell
asleep sitting next to me during the trial three times,
(14:18):
and one of the times the judge called him out
on it. He woke him up and told him, can
we have you being attentive? Man? It says pretty much
everything that he did for me. Jesus. Okay, so you
did get up there to defend yourself. How did that go?
Brian may never ask me if I was even guilty
(14:40):
or innocent, if your theory is innocence, which in this
case that was always the theory. Brian didn't do this.
If you put your clan on the stand under those circumstances,
you absolutely have to ask them whether they did it
or not, because if you don't ask the question, then
you're not only planning a red flag in the minds
of the jurors, but you're also planning a red flag
(15:00):
in the mind of the Court of Appeals if it
ever gets to that phase, which of course it did,
because the Court of Appeals may make the erroneous presumption
in this case that the reason the attorney didn't ask
the question is because the attorney may have known otherwise
and didn't want to commit an ethical violation by eliciting perjury.
So I had to pipe up and say I didn't
(15:22):
do this, you know, I love my son, I did
not do this to put this public defender in the
same category of ineffective council that we've covered on this
show would be unfair to your garden variety in effective counsel.
So there you were on your own against ROBERTA and
the state with their almost unchecked power. They had child
(15:44):
psychology professionals, an allegedly grieving mother, and the testimony of
a six year old boy who had been coached and
coerced over the course of three years to repeat these
horrific lies about his own father. I think whenever a
charge like this is brought before a jury, they're disgusted
(16:04):
by the charge, and I think that they will air
on the side of believing the child. I think had
they been given the actual evidence that was available, what
wasn't used, and had the state's witness has been exposed
to not even vigorous but just adequate cross examination, I
think it would have been a totally different outcome for Brian.
But the outcome here was sadly predictable. So on January fifteenth,
(16:28):
two thousand and three, you were convicted of Class A
child molestation and subsequently sinced to forty years in prison.
And Brian, can you take us back to that horrible,
horrible moment when they came back with the verdict. Oh yeah,
that's a moment you'd never forget. My Then Judy and
I had gotten married. I heard Judy in the courtroom
(16:51):
scream out. I mean, it's a numbing feeling that you know,
if you're guilty, you deserve it. If you're innocent, why
the hell would you deserve something like that. The Pacers
(17:15):
Foundation is a proud supporter of this episode of Rawful
Conviction the end of the Last Mile organization, which provides
business and tech training to help incarcerated individuals successfully and
permanently re enter the workforce. The Pacers Foundation is committed
to improving the lives of Hoosiers across Indiana, supporting organizations
that are dedicated primarily to helping young people and students.
(17:36):
For more information on the work of the Pacers Foundation
or the Last Mile Program, visit Pacers Foundation dot org
or the Last Mile dot org. All you know is
you're supposed to grow up to be a good man.
You're supposed to have a good job and take care
(17:58):
of your family. You know, you don't pay attention to
the legal system. You don't have any need to really
know it. You know, as long as you abide by
the laws that you've been taught all your life. But
you're also taught that you know, prison's a bad place.
Now you have to face this. Now you're going into
something you have no idea about. I mean not to
(18:20):
get into this, but we all know how dangerous that
place is for someone who's been convicted of what you were,
you know, framed for what happened when you first got
to prison. I got put into what's called APOD, which
is where the high profile and the sex charges go,
kind of like protective custody. I never went outside for
(18:44):
I think it was nine months. I have been a
professional person all my life, never had a reason to
know what it's like behind the walls. But the Lord
seeing a purpose for me to be taken out of
that life and put into the other one. And I
believe he did have a purpose for me going there.
(19:05):
You know. I was a part of the PLUS program,
and PLUS stands for Purposeful Living Units SERVE and it's
a terrific program. As I'm led to understand, it was
really a wonderful thing. We won best prison program through
the world many years. I was the clerk. You had
to go to these classes. But me, as the clerk,
(19:25):
I processed all the papers and passed out people's graded papers,
you know, stuck it under their doors, handed it to him.
Whatever I got to be in the classes, I got
to set up the power points for him. It's like
I was the Plus program. But meanwhile, all this time
you're working on appealing your conviction. Your first appeal was
denied and the conviction was upheld, and then in two
(19:46):
thousand and four, still working on your own I might add,
you file a post conviction petition for a new trial
based on your claim of ineffective assistance of counsel. That
that got shot down too, right, Oh yeah, you never
get any kind of attraction when you you do it
yourself basically, And then public defenders they just filed the
paper and it got shot down. I mean, it's like
(20:07):
a skeet shoot. But then I believe your family had
gotten the money together to hire an attorney, and in
two thousand and seven, that's when you came onto the case, Cynthia. Right,
so when you first went and met with Brian at
the prisoner, heard his story, what was your initial impression.
Did you think he had a chance it seemed like
it was going to be a tough case to beat,
just because of the nature of the allegations. But Brian
(20:30):
seemed sincere and his family was firmly in his corner,
and they strongly believed in his innocence. I think by
then he and Judy were divorced and she still believed
in his innocence. It's been my experience in representing criminal
defendits that when the exes will stand behind you, it's
usually a pretty strong indication of character because generally the
(20:52):
ex wives and the ex girlfriends are the ones who
know where all the dirty laundry is. And if they're
still believing in this person, then that gives me a
pretty good feeling that this is somebody I can help.
And as I understand it, there was a very important
person in your life who has since unfortunately passed away,
but who really helped you a lot with this case.
(21:12):
My mentor professor, Henry Carlson, who was my criminal law
and criminal procedure professor in law school. He read the transcripts.
He said, your client is innocent. I can tell by
reading the transcripts. The attorney did a terrible job. We
need an expert witness, and I think you should contact
Richard Lawler. And Richard Lawler was an attorney and also
(21:32):
trained psychologists who did agree to be your expert witness.
So myself, Professor Carlson, and doctor Lawler made a determination
that what was going to be important was to obtain
the play therapy records. So I sent my subpoenas and
nothing turned up from these subpoenas. They told me that
(21:53):
we moved and these play therapy records got less than
the move. Sorry, So I did the best I could
with what I had, and we got the case worked
up and ready to go to trial. But you did
end up getting those records eventually, and how you got them,
it's really like a comedy of errors, all starting with
a snowstorm. So the evidentially you're hearing took place on
(22:15):
the summer tenth, twenty ten, which I believe was a Friday,
very snowy day in South Bend, Indiana. We went up
the night before so we could serve the subpoena. Again,
I sent my clerk. He goes to their office and
again they say, we don't have these notes. We already
told you we don't have them. So he's got he's
(22:37):
going to leave and come back to the courthouse, and
he's reaching in his pockets and he realizes he can't
find the car keys, and he thinks that he's locked
the car keys in the car. He also can't seem
to find his cell phone, so he flags down a snowplow,
and the snowplow flags down a police officer. So they're
(22:58):
out there trying to slim Jim the car to get
into the car. And I think what happened is the
people inside the plate therapy place look out the window
and saw the police and thought that we were serving
process on our subpoena. The young man that I had
hired went back inside to see if he could use
their phone, and lo and behold, they coughed up a
stack of notes. It's the day of your evidentiary hearing,
(23:32):
and everything's on the line. Now you're going up in
front of Judge Jerome Freeze and your expert witness, doctor
Richard Lawler, had just an hour or so to go
over those plate therapy records right before you got up
to testify. And essentially what doctor Lawler's testimony was able
to illuminate is the concept of confabulation. The notes basically
(23:54):
were the evidence that showed that the child was groomed
to testify against Bryan. Was definitely some leading questions. The
therapist would refer to Brian as Brian rather than the dad,
and at the beginning of the testimony, when the prosecutor asked, Michael,
do you have a dad that I did but now
I don't, the therapists introduced the topic of secrets, the
(24:19):
idea of giving the child a power badge to where
to help tell the truth. They also gave him a
policeman ring to give him power. There was at one
point there was something about his mom was threatening to
take his cat away if he didn't say what they
wanted him to say. One of the handwritten notes said
that Michael Scott is finally saying what we want him
(24:41):
to say. And because no one obtained the notes prior
to trial, there was no cross there was no testimony
whatsoever about this. I don't even know if the prosecution
saw these notes. And while the therapist did get him
to say what they wanted through this conditioning and what
sounds like punitive measures, Michael Scott also said some things
that didn't really track with the allegations. In fact, didn't
(25:05):
even make any sense. One of the things that the
little boy said is that when he supposedly had this
encounter with the oral sex, that it tasted like green yellow.
Obviously not true. Another thing that we noticed was that
when he drew a picture, which was supposedly a picture
(25:25):
of that father's penis, the hair was on the shaft.
Obviously untrue. But these are things that happen when there
is a confabulation, When the story is planted in a
child's mind, Eventually the child comes to believe that it's real,
especially with a very young child, and they fill in
details to supplement what they believed to be true. But
the details are wrong. So you've brought in this expert
(25:49):
witness and all this powerful new evidence, along with the
deposition from your mentor Henry Carlson, all of which forms
a very powerful argument for not only ineffective assistance of counsel,
but also witness tampering and manipulation. And on top of that,
you had one more witness who was going to be
absolutely crucial to the case. The initial therapist that did
the play therapy was Kathy Steimon, And the one other
(26:12):
thing that was made clear to us whenever we did
obtain the notes is that somebody else had signed her
name and put their initials after it, and she had
moved to Michigan. She did not want to drive to
South Bend to do the trial. She ended up testifying
by telephone on December the tenth, twenty, which was the
day you concluded your case, but Judge Freeze didn't give
(26:35):
you a ruling that day. He told you to come
back a month later to make your closing arguments, and then,
to your shock and devastation, Judge Freeze denied the post
conviction relief. But I mean, he's here with us today,
right now, right, So then what happened. Brian and I
were actually going to appeal the decision and had actually,
I think even gone so far as to file the
(26:56):
notice of appeal, but then thee had second thoughts and
had his staff called me and asked if I wanted
to reopen the evidence because he said he didn't think
it was quite fair that we had been given the
notes in the middle of the trial, and also it
was difficult to hear the witness on the phone and
it would be better if she could come in person.
(27:19):
So we did that in February. Then the judge took
it under advisement. Judge Freeze wrote his own findings, and
he did that in May, And that was in May
of twenty eleven, just a few months after denying your
PCR request. Judge Freeze then issued his final ruling, granting
post conviction relief and basically overturning your conviction. That must
(27:40):
have been an unbelievable day for you, Brian. Well, it
ain't like, okay, it's overturned and we opened the doors
and let you out. It don't work that way. I
think I was in there for it was either three
weeks or a month deemed an innocent man. Now, you
don't tell nobody that when you're in prison, because they'll
do what's called jack your time. They will cause problems
(28:02):
with you so that you get in trouble and you
don't get to leave on time. So here I am
busting at the seams, and only my closest friends in
prison did I allow to know. I'm getting out and
tell the morning that they packed me out and I'm
walking out and shaking hands with guys. Tell him it's
(28:22):
nice to meet you. I got my case overturned. I'm
going home. So I get up there and finally get
to go before the judge and he releases me, and
one of the happiest days of my life. When you
walk out of that prison, your depths. You don't realize
how far you can see. And when you walk out
(28:43):
a free man, everything you're able to not ask the
guard if I can, I hug my mom and now
she's standing right there waiting for you, along with her posse.
My mom grew up best friends with five other women.
There was six of them that were all good friends.
(29:05):
They were all there. They had a motel room and
the banquet room set up so we could have a
coming out party. It was great. You eventually fouled a
federal civil rights suit against Saint Joseph County. But the
truth is there's nothing. There's no amount that could ever
repay you for what you went through. No put a
price on your life for a year. You can't. There's
(29:28):
no price. I mean, what are you going to do
go back and say, well, his wages for the year
was this, So that's the value of his life. And
where I was your life in danger every day, So
how do you put a price on that? Our listeners,
is there anything that they can do to help, or
anything that you need. Well, the biggest thing that I
(29:51):
could ask for is just prayer. You know people want
to say money, money, money, Well, somebody could lay one
hundred dollars bill in your hand. Yeah that's worth one
hundred dollars, But you can't even put a price on
a prayer and prayers what got me through. There are
so many people praying for me, and nobody let God
(30:12):
forget about Brian. So what are you doing now? Have
you been able to pick up some of the pieces.
I went back to being a deesel mechanic. I just
try to enjoy every day. You learn to appreciate walking
outside and smell in the air. I even like flowers nowadays.
(30:33):
I never never thought anything about florful flowers. Are you
sure to appreciate them? Now? Now we're going to turn
to my favorite part of the show, which we call
closing arguments. I'm just gonna turn off my mic, kick
back in my chair and listen as you guys say
whatever else you feel is left to be said. The
(30:56):
floor is yours, So thank you again for being here India.
Why don't you start us off? And then Brian, you
take us out. What I would say, more so than anything,
is just how valuable the Constitution is in protecting people's freedoms.
And if a person's constitutional rights have been violated and
(31:17):
they don't get a fair trial trial, judges should not
be afraid to overturn convictions, Prosecutors should not be afraid
to revisit wrongful convictions because freedom is too precious and
too valuable for someone to have to sit in prison
for something that they didn't do. And in negotiating with
(31:38):
prosecutors and pleading cases to judges, you know, sometimes the
best thing that you can do is asked for mercy
and grace. And even for people that are in prison
for something they actually did, sometimes the senses are too long.
But for people to be in prison for something that
they didn't do, that's just evil. Brian is a good
(31:59):
example of this. And I just hope that you know,
for people out there that are doing this kind of work,
that they don't lose heart, and that judges who are
presented with cases like this will have the courage to
do the right thing. As strange as it sounds, I
feel like I'm pretty blessed. The Lord showed me a
(32:19):
lot and had me do a lot of what I
think is good being there in prison with the Plus program.
It sounds crazy, but I feel like I'm a blessed man.
I'm definitely blessed. I've finally proved my innocence, but I'll
never know what it's like to have a son. So
(32:43):
I hated that who lives a life lies, but I
pray for him every day that God puts angels in
his life to lead him and protect him. And the
justice system ain't a justice system. It's about as fucked
up as it comes. Thank you for listening to Wrongful
(33:06):
Conviction Special thanks to our amazing production team Connor Hall,
Annie Chelsea, Jeff Clyburne, and Kevin Wardis with research by
Lyla Robinson. The music in this production was supplied by
three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Make sure to
follow us on Instagram at Rowful Conviction, on Facebook at
Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as
(33:28):
well as at Lava for Good. On all three platforms,
you can also follow on TikTok and Instagram at its
Jason Flam. That's It's Jason Flom. Wrongful Conviction is a
production of Lava for good podcasts in association a signal company,
Number one
Hey, it's Jason, just letting you know that Wrongful Conviction
is going to take a short hiatus. Wrongful Conviction with
Maggie Freeling will continue to drop every Monday, but after today.
The next new episode of Wrongful Conviction with Yours Truly
will drop on Thursday, April thirteenth. However, if you want
to begin hearing new episodes one week early, you can
subscribe to our feed through Apple Plus. All subscribers will
(00:24):
hear new episodes of all of our podcasts add free,
one week before everybody else. So get in the know
one week early with an Apple Plus subscription. Brian Derrick
and Roberta Smedley met in Plymouth, Indiana in nineteen eighty four,
and before long they were inseparable. Two years later they
(00:45):
had a son, Michael Scott. By the time the boy
was almost three years old, the relationship had con sour.
Roberta kicked Brian out of the house, got a restraining order,
and cleaned out his bank account. Eventually, a bitter custody
battle ensued. In June of two thousand, after the boy
had returned from a visit with Brian, Roberta reported to
(01:05):
police that Michael Scott had told her that he had
been molested by his father. The Department of Child Services
investigated the allegations. Brian's visitation rights were suspended and Michael
Scott was sent to play therapy. Three years later, at trial,
Roberta and the therapist repeated the accusations against Brian. Michael Scott,
now six years old, testified to say that his father
(01:28):
had in fact done what his mother had alleged. Brian's
only defense was to say that he loved his son
and would never heard of against the testimony of an
impressionable child. Three years worth of notes and videotape therapy
sessions probably helped nothing of interest to the jury. But
this is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to ronfal Conviction. Today's
(02:03):
story comes to us from Saint Joseph's County, Indiana, and
it's about one of the most horrific things that anyone
can imagine as a parent. And I'm speaking as a parent,
but this would be horrific to any normal human person.
I'm talking about the crime of child molestation. And the
thing is it never happened. It was a story cooked
(02:26):
up as ammunition for a custody battle, and unfortunately, an
innocent child was used to bolster the charge by being
groomed to testify against his own father. That's the real
child abuse. By the way, our guest today is Brian Rick. Brian,
welcome to ROLFU conviction. Thank you. And also with us
is Cynthia Carter, Indiana clminal defense attorney and self described
(02:47):
recovering public defender who was Brian's post conviction attorney. So
Cynthia welcome, Thank you. Jason. Really great to be here. Brian.
Let's start with you. Where did you grow up? Right
outside of South ben Indiana, little town called Walkerton. It
was just a small town. My family could have been
considered lower middle class, good family structure, mom, dad, brother,
(03:11):
And then around nineteen eighty four you started seeing Roberta Smedley.
Where did you two meet at the Blueberry Festival in Plymouth, Indiana.
We were together I think six years overall. For the
most part, it was always good. And a couple of
years later you found out that Roberta was pregnant. Were
you excited about becoming a father? Yeah, it was great.
(03:31):
I was looking forward to being a dad. You know,
it's every boy's dream. I assume every boy's dream it
was mine through the pregnancy. I went to every one
of the doctor meetings, birthing class, and I was there
when he was born. It was the greatest thing ever
in my life. So now you, Roberta, and your son
(03:52):
Michael Scott are a family, and for all intents and purposes,
it sounds like life was going pretty well for a while, right.
I mean, you had a steady job and we're building
a life together. I was working in a machine shop
as a machinist assembler and going to work every day,
ten to twelve hour days and coming home every night
to my family. Michael Scott and I had a great relationship.
(04:14):
I mean I was always involved in his life. He
was the center of my life. And one day I
come home from work and she tells me you've got
to get out. And I said, what do you mean
I got to get out? She says, well, I got
a restraining order against you and you've got to move out.
This just came out of the blue, without any warning
at all. Do you have any idea what that was
(04:36):
all about. She just always got whatever she wanted, and
you know, she wanted a child and she got it
and then got rid of me. So I ended up
going out to my dad's and staying with him until
I finally got an apartment. And when my ex girlfriend
came back into my life and his life, and she
(04:57):
just adored Michael Scott. Yeah, your girlfrien, Judy. So Michael
Scott was around three years old at this point and
living with his mother full time. But you and Roberta
had worked out some kind of visitation agreement, right. I
was there every Wednesday and every other weekend. I had
him and we did everything we could together. We'd fill
the car up with balloons. I had a four door
(05:18):
of Crown Victoria and we'd go down the road and
roll the windows down and the balloons would fly around
and fly out. It was wonderful. Michael Scott loved being
with me. I bought a house Judy and I moved
into it. It was a nice two story house. Michael
Scott would come over. He had his own bedroom. He
(05:39):
had a walk in closet that we were sitting there
with markers and ride all over the walls, threw the
ball up and down the steps, and like I said,
I thought we had it going on. It was more
stable than his house, you know. He would always say
mom's going out drinking or mom was drunk. So around
this time when you decide to hire a lawyer, Greg
(06:01):
Blandford and push for full custody of your son, I
wanted to have him with me, and I thought it
was better for him to be with Judy and I,
you know, I felt it was more safe. At one point,
Roberta had sent my mom a picture of Michael Scott
and it was a picture of Michael Scott and his
(06:22):
little buddy Max, and they were both drinking a beer.
So I presented that to the court. I think that's
what flipped her switch to make up all these lies.
And in June two thousand and that's when you find
out just what kind of lies she'd be willing to
make up. And I come home from work one day
and Judy meets me at the door and she says,
(06:45):
get in the house. She says, there's a warrant for
your arrest. And I said for what She says, They
said that you did something to Michael Scott. Right. The
police report was June second, two thousand and the police
talked to Roberta and she reported that the child had
(07:06):
reported that Brian was doing things to him and that
he didn't like his father's pepe, And so I called
my family attorney, the one that was worked with me
to get custody, and he says, they're allegating that you
did something to Michael Scott sexually. And I said, that's impossible, Greg,
it didn't happen. He says, well, this is what's happening.
(07:28):
These are really serious allegations, of course, but initially there
was a wide gap between what Roberta alleged that Michael
Scott had said and what Michael Scott was actually saying.
So then I find out that what he's saying is doggie,
Dad and grass. That's all he was saying. I mean,
it was nothing. Everybody's just kind of laughing about this
(07:51):
because they know Brian. They know this isn't possible. This
was all craziness. When these kinds of allegations are level,
Department of Children Services or DCS must get involved by law.
And there was a physical examination done too, and they
didn't notice any injury to the child, just some redness
(08:12):
and there was no internal examination done, but there were
no injuries to Brian's son. Michael Scott was interviewed by
a therapist at a child abuse investigation center called the
Casey Center. They interviewed Michael Scott and he says, my
dad don't do nothing to me. I mean, this was
on video and they're trying to get him to say something.
(08:33):
Is not saying anything. So these sessions were videotaped, but
Brian's attorney never even reviewed them or presented to the
court during his trial. But this is what we know now,
So it sounds like the allegations were not being made
by the alleged victim, Michael Scott, but rather just coming
from the mind of Roberta. Nevertheless, Brian's visitation rights were
(08:54):
suspended and he wasn't allowed to see his son. Then
in October two thousand, they stopped the investigation because thing
had really come out of it. But it sounds like
Roberta was still not anywhere nearer letting up with her story.
It's interesting because the allegations actually evolved over time. When
the mother first spoke to the police, she said she
(09:15):
was wiping the child after he went to the bathroom
and the child supposedly said, don't put your finger there,
that hurts. And then the things that Brian mentioned about
Daddy dog grass. So that's what led to the initial
physical examination. Well, then come November of two thousand, the
(09:37):
allegation changed. Then the allegation was that he put his
pep in my mouth. So that was a totally different
allegation than what was made in the first place. That
went on for over a year, just those allegations, and
then the other warrant came up that says, oh, we
have enough. They want to grand jury, we have enough
(09:58):
to try him criminal. During that year, unbeknownst to you,
Michael Scott was being sent to this place called Holy
Cross Counseling Center for play therapy once a week, where
they were basically feeding him the story that ROBERTA made
up that his daddy had been touching him and doing
things to him. Basically, let's call it what it was,
(10:19):
brainwashing and indoctrinating this poor little child with all of
these horrible lies about anal and oral sex. There absolutely
wasn't doctor nation that was going on. And the whole
time that this play therapy, it wasn't just therapy therapy,
it was play therapy. Brian was not allowed to see
(10:40):
his son. The child was being groomed to testify against Brian.
There was definitely some leading questions, and they even went
so far as to give him a power badge and
a policeman ring, and it was suggested that this was
going to help him tell the truth. According to the
notes anyway, from the therapy, they even gave him bad
(11:04):
guy spray to put on the windows. I think by
the time the trial came around, he wasn't even calling
his father dad anymore. You called him Brian, and the
expert witnesses that we used said that that was evidence
of demonization of the person. But none of these notes
from the quote unquote play therapy and those videotapes that
we mentioned earlier, none of that ever was brought up
(11:26):
in the trial. The judge didn't know about them, the
jury never heard about them. Why in the world is
that the public defender that handled Brand's case didn't obtain
those notes. He did not even put the bare minimum
of effort, no subpoena, no nothing. And later on we'll
hear the story of how you dug up all of
these records. So let's get back to initial proceedings. On
(11:48):
October twenty nine, two thousand and one, you were indicted
by a grand jury on two counts of child molestation
Class a oral sodomy, which at the time was the
highest level felony short of murder and Class C, which
is finally you're arrested, then let out on a five
thousand dollar bond, and a public defender. Brian May was
designed to represent you at trial. Well, Judy and I
(12:09):
we tried getting ahold of Brian May to set up
meetings so that I could get with him. You know,
in forty one times I called him and never got
an answer, never got a reply. Finally I was allowed
a visit with him, but I went in with all
these notes, but everything that I had on my notes,
he was just blown it away. No, that don't matter,
(12:31):
that doesn't matter, This doesn't matter far as I know,
That's all that he had to go on in my
case was my notes. I only met with him, I believe,
two times before the trial. And we should also mention
that your lawyer from the Custos dispute, Greg Blamford, had
continually offered to help Brian May with these criminal charges.
He was, of course intimately acquainted with your case and
(12:55):
well aware of a bird's mindset, but apparently his offer
was ignored. The I'll started in January two thousand and
three at Saint Joseph County Superior Court, and again Brian
was being tried on two felony counts of sexual assault
of his own son, who by now six years old.
So the state presented evidence from Linda Taylor, who was
(13:15):
the second play therapist. They presented evidence from the mother,
the Casey Center lady, but not the videos. The videos
would have actually been helpful to Brian. I think I
don't believe his public defender ever even looked at the videos,
because I had to obtain those on my own. And
(13:35):
the public defender not only did he not investigate the case,
he didn't cross examine the witnesses. I believe Linda Taylor
was not asked one single question on cross examination, which
just blows my mind. Yeah, this defense attorney, Brian May,
he did no discovery and now he's not cross examining.
Was he just unable to handle his caseload or was
(13:58):
he like maybe the prosecution's payroll. I mean, was this
guy doing anything at all to help you a trial? Well,
my trial was a three day trial and he fell
asleep sitting next to me during the trial three times,
(14:18):
and one of the times the judge called him out
on it. He woke him up and told him, can
we have you being attentive? Man? It says pretty much
everything that he did for me. Jesus. Okay, so you
did get up there to defend yourself. How did that go?
Brian may never ask me if I was even guilty
(14:40):
or innocent, if your theory is innocence, which in this
case that was always the theory. Brian didn't do this.
If you put your clan on the stand under those circumstances,
you absolutely have to ask them whether they did it
or not, because if you don't ask the question, then
you're not only planning a red flag in the minds
of the jurors, but you're also planning a red flag
(15:00):
in the mind of the Court of Appeals if it
ever gets to that phase, which of course it did,
because the Court of Appeals may make the erroneous presumption
in this case that the reason the attorney didn't ask
the question is because the attorney may have known otherwise
and didn't want to commit an ethical violation by eliciting perjury.
So I had to pipe up and say I didn't
(15:22):
do this, you know, I love my son, I did
not do this to put this public defender in the
same category of ineffective council that we've covered on this
show would be unfair to your garden variety in effective counsel.
So there you were on your own against ROBERTA and
the state with their almost unchecked power. They had child
(15:44):
psychology professionals, an allegedly grieving mother, and the testimony of
a six year old boy who had been coached and
coerced over the course of three years to repeat these
horrific lies about his own father. I think whenever a
charge like this is brought before a jury, they're disgusted
(16:04):
by the charge, and I think that they will air
on the side of believing the child. I think had
they been given the actual evidence that was available, what
wasn't used, and had the state's witness has been exposed
to not even vigorous but just adequate cross examination, I
think it would have been a totally different outcome for Brian.
But the outcome here was sadly predictable. So on January fifteenth,
(16:28):
two thousand and three, you were convicted of Class A
child molestation and subsequently sinced to forty years in prison.
And Brian, can you take us back to that horrible,
horrible moment when they came back with the verdict. Oh yeah,
that's a moment you'd never forget. My Then Judy and
I had gotten married. I heard Judy in the courtroom
(16:51):
scream out. I mean, it's a numbing feeling that you know,
if you're guilty, you deserve it. If you're innocent, why
the hell would you deserve something like that. The Pacers
(17:15):
Foundation is a proud supporter of this episode of Rawful
Conviction the end of the Last Mile organization, which provides
business and tech training to help incarcerated individuals successfully and
permanently re enter the workforce. The Pacers Foundation is committed
to improving the lives of Hoosiers across Indiana, supporting organizations
that are dedicated primarily to helping young people and students.
(17:36):
For more information on the work of the Pacers Foundation
or the Last Mile Program, visit Pacers Foundation dot org
or the Last Mile dot org. All you know is
you're supposed to grow up to be a good man.
You're supposed to have a good job and take care
(17:58):
of your family. You know, you don't pay attention to
the legal system. You don't have any need to really
know it. You know, as long as you abide by
the laws that you've been taught all your life. But
you're also taught that you know, prison's a bad place.
Now you have to face this. Now you're going into
something you have no idea about. I mean not to
(18:20):
get into this, but we all know how dangerous that
place is for someone who's been convicted of what you were,
you know, framed for what happened when you first got
to prison. I got put into what's called APOD, which
is where the high profile and the sex charges go,
kind of like protective custody. I never went outside for
(18:44):
I think it was nine months. I have been a
professional person all my life, never had a reason to
know what it's like behind the walls. But the Lord
seeing a purpose for me to be taken out of
that life and put into the other one. And I
believe he did have a purpose for me going there.
(19:05):
You know. I was a part of the PLUS program,
and PLUS stands for Purposeful Living Units SERVE and it's
a terrific program. As I'm led to understand, it was
really a wonderful thing. We won best prison program through
the world many years. I was the clerk. You had
to go to these classes. But me, as the clerk,
(19:25):
I processed all the papers and passed out people's graded papers,
you know, stuck it under their doors, handed it to him.
Whatever I got to be in the classes, I got
to set up the power points for him. It's like
I was the Plus program. But meanwhile, all this time
you're working on appealing your conviction. Your first appeal was
denied and the conviction was upheld, and then in two
(19:46):
thousand and four, still working on your own I might add,
you file a post conviction petition for a new trial
based on your claim of ineffective assistance of counsel. That
that got shot down too, right, Oh yeah, you never
get any kind of attraction when you you do it
yourself basically, And then public defenders they just filed the
paper and it got shot down. I mean, it's like
(20:07):
a skeet shoot. But then I believe your family had
gotten the money together to hire an attorney, and in
two thousand and seven, that's when you came onto the case, Cynthia. Right,
so when you first went and met with Brian at
the prisoner, heard his story, what was your initial impression.
Did you think he had a chance it seemed like
it was going to be a tough case to beat,
just because of the nature of the allegations. But Brian
(20:30):
seemed sincere and his family was firmly in his corner,
and they strongly believed in his innocence. I think by
then he and Judy were divorced and she still believed
in his innocence. It's been my experience in representing criminal
defendits that when the exes will stand behind you, it's
usually a pretty strong indication of character because generally the
(20:52):
ex wives and the ex girlfriends are the ones who
know where all the dirty laundry is. And if they're
still believing in this person, then that gives me a
pretty good feeling that this is somebody I can help.
And as I understand it, there was a very important
person in your life who has since unfortunately passed away,
but who really helped you a lot with this case.
(21:12):
My mentor professor, Henry Carlson, who was my criminal law
and criminal procedure professor in law school. He read the transcripts.
He said, your client is innocent. I can tell by
reading the transcripts. The attorney did a terrible job. We
need an expert witness, and I think you should contact
Richard Lawler. And Richard Lawler was an attorney and also
(21:32):
trained psychologists who did agree to be your expert witness.
So myself, Professor Carlson, and doctor Lawler made a determination
that what was going to be important was to obtain
the play therapy records. So I sent my subpoenas and
nothing turned up from these subpoenas. They told me that
(21:53):
we moved and these play therapy records got less than
the move. Sorry, So I did the best I could
with what I had, and we got the case worked
up and ready to go to trial. But you did
end up getting those records eventually, and how you got them,
it's really like a comedy of errors, all starting with
a snowstorm. So the evidentially you're hearing took place on
(22:15):
the summer tenth, twenty ten, which I believe was a Friday,
very snowy day in South Bend, Indiana. We went up
the night before so we could serve the subpoena. Again,
I sent my clerk. He goes to their office and
again they say, we don't have these notes. We already
told you we don't have them. So he's got he's
(22:37):
going to leave and come back to the courthouse, and
he's reaching in his pockets and he realizes he can't
find the car keys, and he thinks that he's locked
the car keys in the car. He also can't seem
to find his cell phone, so he flags down a snowplow,
and the snowplow flags down a police officer. So they're
(22:58):
out there trying to slim Jim the car to get
into the car. And I think what happened is the
people inside the plate therapy place look out the window
and saw the police and thought that we were serving
process on our subpoena. The young man that I had
hired went back inside to see if he could use
their phone, and lo and behold, they coughed up a
stack of notes. It's the day of your evidentiary hearing,
(23:32):
and everything's on the line. Now you're going up in
front of Judge Jerome Freeze and your expert witness, doctor
Richard Lawler, had just an hour or so to go
over those plate therapy records right before you got up
to testify. And essentially what doctor Lawler's testimony was able
to illuminate is the concept of confabulation. The notes basically
(23:54):
were the evidence that showed that the child was groomed
to testify against Bryan. Was definitely some leading questions. The
therapist would refer to Brian as Brian rather than the dad,
and at the beginning of the testimony, when the prosecutor asked, Michael,
do you have a dad that I did but now
I don't, the therapists introduced the topic of secrets, the
(24:19):
idea of giving the child a power badge to where
to help tell the truth. They also gave him a
policeman ring to give him power. There was at one
point there was something about his mom was threatening to
take his cat away if he didn't say what they
wanted him to say. One of the handwritten notes said
that Michael Scott is finally saying what we want him
(24:41):
to say. And because no one obtained the notes prior
to trial, there was no cross there was no testimony
whatsoever about this. I don't even know if the prosecution
saw these notes. And while the therapist did get him
to say what they wanted through this conditioning and what
sounds like punitive measures, Michael Scott also said some things
that didn't really track with the allegations. In fact, didn't
(25:05):
even make any sense. One of the things that the
little boy said is that when he supposedly had this
encounter with the oral sex, that it tasted like green yellow.
Obviously not true. Another thing that we noticed was that
when he drew a picture, which was supposedly a picture
(25:25):
of that father's penis, the hair was on the shaft.
Obviously untrue. But these are things that happen when there
is a confabulation, When the story is planted in a
child's mind, Eventually the child comes to believe that it's real,
especially with a very young child, and they fill in
details to supplement what they believed to be true. But
the details are wrong. So you've brought in this expert
(25:49):
witness and all this powerful new evidence, along with the
deposition from your mentor Henry Carlson, all of which forms
a very powerful argument for not only ineffective assistance of counsel,
but also witness tampering and manipulation. And on top of that,
you had one more witness who was going to be
absolutely crucial to the case. The initial therapist that did
the play therapy was Kathy Steimon, And the one other
(26:12):
thing that was made clear to us whenever we did
obtain the notes is that somebody else had signed her
name and put their initials after it, and she had
moved to Michigan. She did not want to drive to
South Bend to do the trial. She ended up testifying
by telephone on December the tenth, twenty, which was the
day you concluded your case, but Judge Freeze didn't give
(26:35):
you a ruling that day. He told you to come
back a month later to make your closing arguments, and then,
to your shock and devastation, Judge Freeze denied the post
conviction relief. But I mean, he's here with us today,
right now, right, So then what happened. Brian and I
were actually going to appeal the decision and had actually,
I think even gone so far as to file the
(26:56):
notice of appeal, but then thee had second thoughts and
had his staff called me and asked if I wanted
to reopen the evidence because he said he didn't think
it was quite fair that we had been given the
notes in the middle of the trial, and also it
was difficult to hear the witness on the phone and
it would be better if she could come in person.
(27:19):
So we did that in February. Then the judge took
it under advisement. Judge Freeze wrote his own findings, and
he did that in May, And that was in May
of twenty eleven, just a few months after denying your
PCR request. Judge Freeze then issued his final ruling, granting
post conviction relief and basically overturning your conviction. That must
(27:40):
have been an unbelievable day for you, Brian. Well, it
ain't like, okay, it's overturned and we opened the doors
and let you out. It don't work that way. I
think I was in there for it was either three
weeks or a month deemed an innocent man. Now, you
don't tell nobody that when you're in prison, because they'll
do what's called jack your time. They will cause problems
(28:02):
with you so that you get in trouble and you
don't get to leave on time. So here I am
busting at the seams, and only my closest friends in
prison did I allow to know. I'm getting out and
tell the morning that they packed me out and I'm
walking out and shaking hands with guys. Tell him it's
(28:22):
nice to meet you. I got my case overturned. I'm
going home. So I get up there and finally get
to go before the judge and he releases me, and
one of the happiest days of my life. When you
walk out of that prison, your depths. You don't realize
how far you can see. And when you walk out
(28:43):
a free man, everything you're able to not ask the
guard if I can, I hug my mom and now
she's standing right there waiting for you, along with her posse.
My mom grew up best friends with five other women.
There was six of them that were all good friends.
(29:05):
They were all there. They had a motel room and
the banquet room set up so we could have a
coming out party. It was great. You eventually fouled a
federal civil rights suit against Saint Joseph County. But the
truth is there's nothing. There's no amount that could ever
repay you for what you went through. No put a
price on your life for a year. You can't. There's
(29:28):
no price. I mean, what are you going to do
go back and say, well, his wages for the year
was this, So that's the value of his life. And
where I was your life in danger every day, So
how do you put a price on that? Our listeners,
is there anything that they can do to help, or
anything that you need. Well, the biggest thing that I
(29:51):
could ask for is just prayer. You know people want
to say money, money, money, Well, somebody could lay one
hundred dollars bill in your hand. Yeah that's worth one
hundred dollars, But you can't even put a price on
a prayer and prayers what got me through. There are
so many people praying for me, and nobody let God
(30:12):
forget about Brian. So what are you doing now? Have
you been able to pick up some of the pieces.
I went back to being a deesel mechanic. I just
try to enjoy every day. You learn to appreciate walking
outside and smell in the air. I even like flowers nowadays.
(30:33):
I never never thought anything about florful flowers. Are you
sure to appreciate them? Now? Now we're going to turn
to my favorite part of the show, which we call
closing arguments. I'm just gonna turn off my mic, kick
back in my chair and listen as you guys say
whatever else you feel is left to be said. The
(30:56):
floor is yours, So thank you again for being here India.
Why don't you start us off? And then Brian, you
take us out. What I would say, more so than anything,
is just how valuable the Constitution is in protecting people's freedoms.
And if a person's constitutional rights have been violated and
(31:17):
they don't get a fair trial trial, judges should not
be afraid to overturn convictions, Prosecutors should not be afraid
to revisit wrongful convictions because freedom is too precious and
too valuable for someone to have to sit in prison
for something that they didn't do. And in negotiating with
(31:38):
prosecutors and pleading cases to judges, you know, sometimes the
best thing that you can do is asked for mercy
and grace. And even for people that are in prison
for something they actually did, sometimes the senses are too long.
But for people to be in prison for something that
they didn't do, that's just evil. Brian is a good
(31:59):
example of this. And I just hope that you know,
for people out there that are doing this kind of work,
that they don't lose heart, and that judges who are
presented with cases like this will have the courage to
do the right thing. As strange as it sounds, I
feel like I'm pretty blessed. The Lord showed me a
(32:19):
lot and had me do a lot of what I
think is good being there in prison with the Plus program.
It sounds crazy, but I feel like I'm a blessed man.
I'm definitely blessed. I've finally proved my innocence, but I'll
never know what it's like to have a son. So
(32:43):
I hated that who lives a life lies, but I
pray for him every day that God puts angels in
his life to lead him and protect him. And the
justice system ain't a justice system. It's about as fucked
up as it comes. Thank you for listening to Wrongful
(33:06):
Conviction Special thanks to our amazing production team Connor Hall,
Annie Chelsea, Jeff Clyburne, and Kevin Wardis with research by
Lyla Robinson. The music in this production was supplied by
three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Make sure to
follow us on Instagram at Rowful Conviction, on Facebook at
Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as
(33:28):
well as at Lava for Good. On all three platforms,
you can also follow on TikTok and Instagram at its
Jason Flam. That's It's Jason Flom. Wrongful Conviction is a
production of Lava for good podcasts in association a signal company,
Number one
Hosts And Creators
Lauren Bright Pacheco
Maggie Freleng
Jason Flom
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