Celtics Chemistry with Bobby Manning

Justin and Carter are joined by Bobby Manning of CLNS Media to discuss the offseason for the Boston Celtics, the risks they took, how they compare to the Cleveland Cavaliers and much more!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Second, trying to get loose, He'll fire he ducks it down,
Harrow slamming it home. Garland upstairs for six Hellen Lock
the shot.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
Of the Rim. Welcome to the Chase Down Podcast, part
of the Kaz Media Family. I'm your host, Justin Rowan.
The Chase Down is presented by Fubo TV. Watch over
one hundred channels of live sports and TV for alf
the Gosta cable. There's no contract and no commitment. Try
for free at FuboTV dot com. Guess who's back, folks.
Carter Rodriguez making his return to the podcast. Carter, how

(00:35):
you doing? Buddy?

Speaker 1 (00:37):
Bleary eyed? Jet Ladd and Uh, I'm ready to talk
about the Cleveland Cavaliers. I'm good. I got back yesterday afternoon.
You know, felt my worst then. I have just been
uh in a in a stupor all day. But one
more night of sleep, I think I'll be right as rain.

Speaker 3 (00:57):
Well.

Speaker 2 (00:57):
We we appreciate you toughen it. We we had a
lot technical difficulties getting this one going. I think I
might have a dead commission for me. Stunningly that you
know what you're You're running the cleanest out of all
of us and I'm happy to hear it. I'm happy
to see that you're back. I'm happy everything was Japan
was lovely.

Speaker 1 (01:15):
Yes, amazing city. I ate very very well, produced a
very fun Pokemon event while I was there. And uh
now I'm back in the saddle.

Speaker 2 (01:25):
Baby, happy to hear it, and I'm happy to welcome
our guest back to the podcast. Bobby Manning is back
on the podcast, here to talk some Calves, Here to
talk some Celtics. You might know him from cl C
l NS Media Dome Theory podcast Garden Report. Bobby, how
you doing, Buddy?

Speaker 3 (01:44):
Hey, appreciate Carter doing it tonight so we could get
together here. I I'm obviously about to go away myself,
so let's uh, let's talk some Celtics. Calves is obviously
my favorite spot to come talk basketball. Appreciate you guys.

Speaker 2 (02:00):
Like how you said, obviously about to leave myself. Like
the listeners that are listening in on our pre show talk.

Speaker 1 (02:06):
They were fun. Fact we were streaming the whole time.

Speaker 2 (02:09):
Yeah, we've just been going live this whole time. Bobby,
I want to start things off, and we've been doing
some of these team previews. We talked about the Bucks.
We talked about the NIXT last week, which Carter caught
a few strays during that podcast. But we start things
off just asking how you feel about your team, the
Boston Celtics after the playoff run that they have. Did

(02:32):
them not advancing as far as the previous year impact
how you viewed the team and did you feel any
changes were required as a result of where they finished
last year?

Speaker 3 (02:42):
Yeah, no doubt. How could you not have to watch
them go down three nothing to an eight seed, and
obviously an eight seed that took down some really good
teams on the way ended up going to the finals
and putting up a decent fight there. I had a
bunch of guys step up, so that heat team obviously
proved me wrong. I didn't believe in them all year,
and they were an amazing playoff team last postseason, but

(03:05):
to go down three nothing when you're the better team,
it was just unacceptable. And I know they made the comeback.
I know that saved the coach's job and all probability,
but it was clear they needed some shakeup internally, and
I was willing to listen on Jalen Brown. I was
willing to listen a year ago when the Kevin Durant
stuff was happening, and I don't think they considered it

(03:27):
this time around. They went with Marcus Smart, and they
took a very calculated risk, I think, one that makes
a lot of sense statistically on paper in a basketball sense.
But this team's been one of the most talented teams
in the NBA over the last couple of years. Here,
talent was not the issue. They had a third very
talented player. Here, You're still questioning the intangibles here, the room,

(03:53):
the inner dynamics between the stars on the team and
their ability to connect, and of course the coaching as well.
You know, I think after that postseason run, you still
have to question that going into the season as well.
So I have a lot of questions about it. They
made some interesting moves that I think were very creative
and could work out exceptionally and prove to be the

(04:15):
fix for what's gone wrong the last couple of years.
But I don't love losing Smart for on and off
court reasons, and I have questions about porzingis I do.

Speaker 1 (04:28):
I want to ask you first. We're going to jump
into the en court stuff in a minute, because I
think Justin and I both feel a certain way about
the Celtics offseason. However, I do before I kind of
voice my pessimism about the choices that they've made, I
do kind of want to ask you a bit about
the cultural side of things, like, because this is something

(04:49):
the Cavs have been going through as of late, where
you know, they had they signed Ricky Rubio two seasons ago,
ended up you know, bringing them back this year to
be a kind of that cultural tone setter, and like,
you know, as we kind of went into this offseason,
you know, they lost a guy like Lamar Stevens who
was who was like a huge part of their culture

(05:10):
in their locker room. And something I said kind of
to guard against that is like, hey, at some point,
like when you're trying to become a title contending team,
when you're moving into that phase, like your best players
have to be your culture setter. Like the Spurs weren't
the best culture in the league because of Rascho Nasterovitch,
they were because of Jim Duncan. So like, what do

(05:31):
you think of that take that? Like you know, like
you are you as worried about the hit that they're
going to take in losing Marcus Are you? Are you
kind of the opinion that if Jalen, if the Ja's
can't get you there culturally, you probably have bigger problems
on your hands.

Speaker 3 (05:46):
Yeah, it's a fair argument, and I think that's a
big reason they made the move they did. In fact,
given that the Brogden trade broke down and that Smart
ended up subbing into the new trade, I think there
was a real chance Smart was going to be gone
regardless here because I just think they wanted to shake
up the room. Yeah, and you know, it's worth trying,

(06:06):
right because if you go through this whole ground in
Tatum era not trying to mix up things at all,
you'll never know what it would have looked like if
you did shake up things. And obviously the top two
talented players Carter, as you said, are going to be
the driving force, and a lot of that I just
question whether they're temperamentally both of those guys are going
to be the really vocal, outspoken, responsible leaders that they're

(06:29):
being pushed to be in this move. You know, they're
both naturally quiet guys, and I think they've gotten better
at embracing the leadership qualities. But a lot of the
you know, talk out of last season is we had
a great year, you know, we it was tough, and
there's a million excuses that I think are valid coming
out of it. But at the very top, you still

(06:51):
want to see some anger, some disappointment, some fire over
them losing. Some disappointment, I think is the biggest thing.
And with each passing, postseason loss and big spots, there's
still a lot of you know, all we did a
lot of good things this year. You know, it was
a tough season, or we had this excuse of that excuse,
you know, Smart Grant guys like that that they've lost.

(07:13):
Here were ones who were more likely to say, you know,
this isn't acceptable. You know, Smart had one of the
wildest call outs of the coaching and I still don't
really know what he was getting at with it, but
when he said after the you know, game six win
in Philly, Joe's been getting killed and rightfully so, which
is one of the wildest things I've ever heard in

(07:34):
a press conference. But he was willing to speak his mind.
You know, a couple of years ago, everyone remembers he
called out Jalen and Jason like when e may then
you know we can talk about that as well. You know,
Emay's departure after last year firing. Uh, there was this
kind of atmosphere internally of collective accountability, like anyone could

(07:54):
call anyone out. There was a lot of that that year,
and it started and ended with email all the time.
Last year it was a lot of optimism and positive
talk after tough losses and I think letting things slide
a little bit in terms of things that weren't as
tight And Al Horford talked about this after the year too,
that they should have tightened up earlier and they really

(08:15):
weren't on top of in the new atmosphere under Joe.

Speaker 1 (08:19):
Yeah, I want to ask about because the way you're
talking about this team right now is of one that's
like kind of not hitting its ceiling, that that might
be a little disappointing, and I understand that impulse, and
like something that I found interesting with the Celtics team
is by all accounts, the Jays era has been a
wild success a finals appearance like was it four conference

(08:40):
finals trips now for you know, a still very young
core like you're like for most guys that at those
guys age, you're kind of hoping to have gotten to
one by now, and so like, how do you square
the idea that the pain of not getting all the
way across the finish line feels bigger despite the fact that,

(09:02):
like you know, by you know, in any era, this
is a pretty darn good team that's had a really
good run of sustained excellence. They really only had one year, yeh,
in the in the Jason Tatum era.

Speaker 3 (09:17):
Well that's the Killers. They have had a fantastic team
and I think that And of course the first East
Finals only Brown was there and he was just coming
into the league in his rookie year, But that says
a lot about the era they've both entered into here.
Tatum played in these finals in his rookie season, Brown
did as well. They've had outstanding all star players around

(09:38):
them for this whole ride, and when they've become the stars,
they've had I think excellent supporting cast outside of the
one year you mentioned, which was a disaster year. But
I think that sort of and you know, this has
been talked about a little bit too. Around them. There's
an expectation that it's gonna happen, or it's going to
happen eventually, and you know, I think I've heard Tatum
say as much too, Like when it came to the

(10:00):
MVP last year, he's like, yeah, I got you know,
ten fifteen years to go to win that, And like,
I think there is a little bit of an attitude
internally that you know, we'll get there when we'll get there,
And you know, I can't exclude Smart from that either.
I asked Smart after they lost Game seven, you know
about the pass forward and the next steps, and he's like, yeah,
that's the beauty of it. We get we get to

(10:20):
come back and do it again next year. And of
course I knew that was going to come back to
bite him, and it did. Like there was just always
this attitude I think in this locker room that we'll
get it next year. We'll get it next year, and
that next year is promised. And you saw after the
finals appearance, I think this team believed very strongly that
they were just going to be back in the finals,
and they weren't. Like they let a lot of regular

(10:41):
season games slide. They let home court advantage slide, which
didn't kill them because the Bucks ended up losing anyway,
But I didn't think that was a great thing for
them to do, and they just weren't the tightest team.
Last year, I thought it was a fairly loose group,
and you know, the season before you saw they were
one of the tightest, highest functioning, locked in teams in
the league. And it's tough not to look at the

(11:02):
coaching in that sense and listen, Joe, all the excuses
in the world that are thrown around when it comes
to him are one hundred percent valid. He took over
days before training camp, he had no time to implement
his system. He had assistant who with one foot in
the door, one foot out. They all pretty much left
it to this season. I think it's all valid. But
if you're still looking at last year, not so much
the x's and o's and the timeouts and all that.

(11:24):
I think Joe from a basketball standpoint is very sound,
and there are certain things about his philosophies on the
court that some people don't like. And you know, I've
had problems with at times too. With him, it's more,
you know, you'd ask him after games like what has
to get better, and like even after these brutal losses
would still be you know, we played great. There were
a lot of great things we did tonight, And I

(11:45):
think that sort of tone just carried down throughout the
roster all year that after bad losses and going a
game too long in the Hawk series and going down
three two in the Philly series, that everything was going
to be all right until you know, you saw everything
shift after they went down three nothing that he was
you know, Joe was on the podium saying he takes

(12:05):
all responsibility. Wick was in the locker room cussing everybody out,
and they responded, which you know, I think was admirable,
But in the end, they still lost Game seven in
a big way, and to me, it was still a
really disappointing series. So yeah, you do acknowledge I think
in keeping Tatum and Brown together that this corps has
allowed you to be in the mix every year, and

(12:25):
you obviously need a lot of luck and circumstance actually
win it all. But at the same time, I do
think there's some glaring issues and maybe some of it
did go back to smart, you know, the fact that
they identified that and made that move could work out.
But I also think, you know, you've seen a handful
of guys have come and gone be that scapegoat, and
this year, like I think Grant filled that role at times,

(12:47):
like everyone could look at Grant and be like, Grant,
what the hell are you doing? And then like Smart
would take the shots, everyone you know would be pissed
off about it and be like smart when three for ten.
But like those guys, I think the veterans on this
team really got that nothing's promised urin in year out.
And I still look at Brown and Tatum as the
ones who have done nothing but win from start to
finish in their careers so far, and look at them

(13:09):
and say, like, do they really realize how important this
next year or two are going to be here? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (13:15):
I find it really interesting that you're talking about kind
of the perceived long runway that the Boston Celtics have
right with this young core, And I think that's something
that we're trying to find that balance too when it
comes to the calves, right, because you have this foundation
of Darius Garland, Evan Mobley, Jared Allen, all those guys
are under contract for a long time. Then you bring
in Donovan Mitchell right when obviously he's got a shorter

(13:37):
timeline when it comes to contract, but you feel like
you have a long runway, And I think it just
goes to show that things can get stale, and you
always have to be looking for ways to improve the
roster and to shake things up and make sure that
you're trending in that right direction, because you know, if
you keep assuming that you're just going to have internal
growth and that's going to bridge the gap, like that

(14:00):
doesn't cover it all, right, Like you need to bring
in those supporting pieces that improve the context for those
core pieces to have that growth.

Speaker 3 (14:09):
I do.

Speaker 2 (14:10):
Before we move on, I want to circle back to
something you've said, and you've alluded to it a couple
of times. You said that if the original Porzingis trade
went down, or Malcolm Brogden's traded to the Clippers, you
still kind of foresaw a smart getting traded. I want
to know what type of deal you thought that was
going to be, and if I'm correcting one, if I'm

(14:31):
correcting that interpretation to begin with, but did you just
kind of feel like they needed to make that shake
up and it was going to occur no matter what.

Speaker 3 (14:40):
I think, I think it would have happened, no matter when.
I don't know exactly what deal it would have been. Obviously,
from a Grizzly standpoint, their GM talked about them having
conversations prior to that, which you know, I don't think
anyone's under the illusion that at eleven o'clock they call
it the Grizzlies and threw something together on a whim
like those cos.

Speaker 2 (14:57):
There's probably, yeah, that's not how this happens.

Speaker 3 (15:00):
Those conversations happen. Maybe it would have been a Tighas
Jones situation and he ended up being you know, valuable
to the Wizards in a way that pulled all those
different deals together in the end. That's a possibility. Obviously.
There there's a couple other contracts on the Grizzlies that
might have made sense, But I don't know exactly what

(15:21):
deal it could have been. I just know that they
didn't just pivot from Brogden to Smart like I think
there's a real possibility. And even after Smart got traded,
you still saw reporting for weeks to come that they
were looking to move Brogden as well, And I think
that suddenly becomes maybe the biggest question going into the
season for the Celtics is what his status is and

(15:41):
how secure his futures with the team here, you know,
from a physical standpoint and from a you know, mental
standpoint in terms of commitment to his role in the
team after he almost got dealt. So yeah, I like they.

Speaker 2 (15:54):
I mean, when the Clippers are turning you down for
medical reasons, that's a bit of a red flag. I
think that it's definitely one of the bigger questions and
one that I have on the rundown. But we do
play a game here on the podcast, which is why
is justin wrong? And so far Carter has never proven
me wrong. He's never got me to change my mind.

(16:14):
But I think that Boston got worse this summer. Tell
me why I'm wrong.

Speaker 1 (16:19):
I don't need to prove him wrong because I agree
on this one.

Speaker 3 (16:23):
Bobby Me.

Speaker 2 (16:24):
Prove me wrong, prove me wrong, make the case all
why Boston got better.

Speaker 3 (16:29):
So as many questions as I have about poorzingis the
one I don't is the defense. I think he's going
to make this team so much better defensively, just because
of the style that they were trying to play last year.
With Al Horford in the drop, who's obviously six eight
six ' nine, not the best room protector in the
world and a little bit older, You're replacing him in

(16:50):
the drop with a seven to three guy with all
the length in the world Stone his prime somewhat athletically
here and he's going to dominate. And he was great
last year defensively, both you know, blocking shots, but also
just playing in that drop in deterring shots around the
rim too, which is what under Missoula the Celtics want
to do. They want to take away threes, they want

(17:11):
to take away looks at the rim, and I think
now this roster is so much length that they're gonna
switch less. They're going to play a much different style
defensively than they did with e May a couple of
years ago. But I think they actually have the personnel
to play this style that they want to now, between
Jalen and Jason Porzingis, and I think they're probably gonna

(17:31):
start with rob at the four or five, whatever you
want to call it, and they're just gonna have length
at every position. Derek White is still a big long
defender at the point even with Smart gone. So again,
they're gonna switch less. They're gonna cover space more than
I think. They use brute strength and versatility went through
five to defend positions like they did before, but they're

(17:52):
gonna have the seven to three guy at the rim
helping them be more aggressive on the wing. They're going
to force more turnovers, which I know is a huge
priority for this team going in this year. And I
think this defense will be back and play to be
number one. It'll be a different style, it'll be a
different look, but I think it will lead to a
similar result to what we saw a couple of years ago.
So that, to me is the biggest reason I'm excited

(18:13):
about porzingis.

Speaker 1 (18:15):
It's one of the biggest teams in the league positionally, right,
Like especially you, So, do you think they're going to
start one of those I guess they kind of have to, right,
they have to start.

Speaker 3 (18:25):
Yeah, you're talking about Robert.

Speaker 1 (18:28):
Like they What I'm saying is they have to go
double big, right, just basically the way their team's made.

Speaker 3 (18:33):
Yeah, and they can go smaller sometimes with Brogden at
the two, but I think to start games and for
the most of games they'll go with Robin porzingis and
then some looks with Horford and Porzingis.

Speaker 1 (18:45):
What that does for them, I would surmise is it
does allow Robert Williams to go back into that Romer role,
that free safety role with you know, I would argue
a better drop big in the form of porzingis. I
guess my question to you here is the depth I
think we've seen the last couple of years that the

(19:06):
league has just gotten so darn good that the difference
between you know, the tenth best player and the fifteenth
best player isn't that big anymore. But if you're playing
guys who really shouldn't be on the floor, it's hard
to have successful lineups. What do you think about the
Celtic's depth pieces guys let's say seven through eleven in

(19:31):
the rotation, and are they going to be good enough?
Like like a are are we gonna or are we
gonna be looking at lineup dat and going yep every time,
ohshaber Sett's in there, we're getting killed just picking the
name out of a hat.

Speaker 3 (19:43):
They weren't an exceptionally deep team last year either. Obviously
you still have the sixth man of the year in Brogden,
who I think is the biggest question mark in that sense.
But seven will be Horford, who you know, at ten
million dollars. Now, even if you look at his postseason,
say you missed a lot of shots and didn't farewell defensively,
he'll be back at the four still shot forty four
percent from three last year, so I think him coming

(20:04):
off the bench potentially is a nice plus in the
front core. And you can look at him as the
grant from a year ago, whereas he didn't have that
extra big in the fold last year was Mike Mascalo
who never played. So I think in that sense, you
got better there wing depth. You know, I think at
least during the regular season, you feel good about Pritchard

(20:25):
giving you some minutes at the two where needed. Who
did you know, play every night a couple of years ago,
is a good shooter, and I think at an underrated defender.
And then Sam Hauser, who I thought during the regular
season gave them some really solid minutes shooting over forty
from three, finish number one in defensive rating for whatever
that's worth, but didn't get killed on that in the

(20:46):
way a lot of people thought he would. And I think,
you know, maybe he's not a playoff guy, but brand
and Tatum ended up eating most of those minutes come
playoff time. Anyway, Now, when you're talking injuries at any
one of those positions, I do think you start to
worry little bit like o'shae Ber said, and Delano Banton
are both here as minimum guys who I don't foresee
being super consistent in regular roles. But those guys can

(21:09):
be inning eatings during the years too, which is what
they're gonna need. They need to rest and scale back
the minutes. That's the second biggest thing I like about
the Porzingis deal is just just not as much of
a load on Horford. There's an obvious replacement if Rob
gets hurt, who you know is right there and available
and playing from day one. It's not just one of these,
you know, ancillary role guys who are stepping in and

(21:30):
trying to fill that spot. So like again, on paper,
I think a lot of how this team's built makes sense.
It's just gonna be how it connects, how the three
stars connect to each other offensively, how the offense functions.
I'm very excited about Derek White stepping up in that sense.
But depth, you know, it's a regular season question. They
might even bring Blake back, who I liked last year,
for depth purposes during the regular season, and then come

(21:53):
playoff time, it's your six to seven guys, as it
always is.

Speaker 2 (21:56):
I mean, it's not always that way. We didn't have
six he felt confident in last season.

Speaker 3 (22:02):
Sometimes I can dwindle down.

Speaker 2 (22:05):
Oh yeah, it can dwindle down in a hurry.

Speaker 1 (22:06):
But that was obviously bomb and a stand up set.
It just kind of starts paring down.

Speaker 2 (22:12):
But that was obviously a massive point of emphasis for
the Calves and they went out and added you know,
Max Strus, George Meang, Ty Jerome, even Damian Jones were
interested to see what he can bring from an outsider's perspective.
What did you make of the CAF summary and kind
of their efforts to solve some of their bigger needs.

Speaker 3 (22:32):
They did a ton with limited resources. I was super
impressed with what they did. Love Niang thought the Sixers
underutilized him, and he gives shooting at that wing spot.
This team, we talked about it all the time, just
on this show and my show. They did not have
consistent play at the wing, and it's probably going to
be production by committee at that spot. Like Niang's not

(22:53):
always going to be a great matchup against opposing teams
if he's getting targeted defensively, but you know, I think
he'll be steady at that spot. Struce would probably be, uh,
you know, the go to option there still have a
Corra in the mix, maybe he can figure it out,
so you have options. Now. I love Jerome too, like
I think he's a guy who's probably been underutilized in
the league as well, So you just give yourself options

(23:14):
at that spot where they were so weak last year.
And I almost knew from the start that was going
to be their downfall. They just didn't have enough there.
Laveret coming back, you know, it's a fine contract. We'll
see if he can start to find where that spot's
going to be for him on this team, because I
think it was tough to put him at the wing there.
And then you know, the biggest thing for this team

(23:36):
is going to be mobiley like Mobili and Alan of
course struggled in the postseason too, but Mobley had to
take some strides offensively last year that he didn't do
into the postseason, like the three point shots. Not quite
there still. Where he's going to get his offense and
is scoring from isn't always an obvious, uh you know

(23:58):
thing for them in a night out. So a lot
of it's going to be his growth, you know, Mitchell
being back Garland being back together for a year or two.
I think only points in the right direction. As much
as I questioned that wing spot for them, I am
still surprised they went down in the first round. I mean,
this is a team with a top three net rating,
This is one of the best defensive teams in the league.

(24:19):
This is a real rock solid team all regular season.
I know they'll be teams sometimes that are regular season
beasts and then the postseason fizzle out fast, but I'm
surprised that's what this team was last year. So as
far as what they could do, I thought they did
a lot. They gave themselves options, but those you know,
two positions of mobili and what they'll actually get from
that wing spot are still questions coming in this year.

Speaker 2 (24:42):
I mean, we were surprised too, top of the list
of folks that were surprised. It was definitely awesome. I mean,
we highlighted some of the things that kind of could
go wrong in areas of concern, and a lot of
those did kind of come to fruition, but the extent
to which is just surprising. Like, you're right, I think
Mobley's growth is going to be one of the biggest things. Obviously,

(25:03):
having more space is going to be beneficial. I saw
in terms of contact stats. Basketball Index does contact stats
right of how much spacing you have around them. Garland
I think was twenty ninth. They were doing it by position,
So your second minutes leader, how much spacing does he
have around him? Well, out of all starting guys, it

(25:26):
was twenty ninth and Mitchell was thirtieth. Right. There just
was not space for these guys. And you look at
Mobley throughout the postseason. Even Mobley was second on the
team in passes per game, like he was getting involved,
he was getting that bali in the short role like
we expected, but he just wasn't productive in those spots.
He only averaged two assists per game three point eight

(25:48):
potential assists, And to me, that just screams he's not
catching the ball at advantage right, Like, even though he
is that outlet for when they would trap the guards,
he's not getting it in a great position where he's
able to catch alive and find those cutters. And the
offense just really really bogged down. And then, of course
the worst out of them all, which was he averaged
zero point zero eight points per possession as a role man. Now,

(26:12):
I know NBA dot Com stats tracking stats can be
a little funky. And I'm pretty sure he scored a
bucket there, but that was not good. He was objectively
one of the weaker points. And I totally agree that
that his growth is going to be one of the
biggest things, because he was awesome down the stretch last season,
like the second half of the year, he was averaging nearly,

(26:32):
you know, eighteen nineteen points per game. If he was
just that player in that next series, it probably changes
the outcome.

Speaker 3 (26:39):
Was he going to have to become the five eventually?
Is that what's going to have to happen here?

Speaker 1 (26:43):
I'm justin and I not are of us think so
I'm adamant that he needs to be a four throughout
his career.

Speaker 2 (26:49):
I think that's just where the league is going. Like
just like Robert Williams is more effective as a defender
when he's playing at the four and he's able to roam,
and you have that kind of big like obviously you
don't know if the pairing with Allen's going to be forever.
There's so much you know, speculation and stuff like that,
and maybe there's a move to add like a high
level wing, and that's something that the Cavs need to consider.

(27:12):
I think even in those spots, you try to get
someone like a Steven Adams right where eats minutes at
the center position, and you know, just makes things a
little bit easier. And then yeah, Mobiley can close at five.
I think he can close at the five now he
plays about half of his minutes there. But I'm well,
I think that the league is going towards size and skill.

(27:33):
That seems to be the impression of where things are going.
I mean, Chat's a four, Victor's a four, JJJ is
a four, Giannis is a four. Right, Like the best
defenses in the league seem to have these guys at
the power forward position, and I certainly think Mobody's going
to continue to play those backup five minutes. But I
think I think he's a power forward in today's game,
similar to the way KG was for you guys.

Speaker 1 (27:55):
Yeah, yeah, I just kind of come back to the
fact that, like there's just a lot of up that mountain,
Like the Steven Adams road is an interesting one where
you still keep a bruiser around and you know, or
like or just you look for like a stretch five,
someone who can maybe do a little bit of both.

(28:16):
But I think like even in a world where you
pick up a high level wing, Like it just kind
of makes sense to have that versatility, to be able
to have a big that's good enough to play, to
play those minutes. And one thing I'll say is, I
do think some folks are over indexed on the Mobile
Jarrett pairing because, like you look at the salary numbers

(28:38):
around the league, Jared's not making crazy money, like twenty
millions role player money these days. Yeah, So so, like
you know, I think one reason people are keying in
on it so hard right now is because the calves
depth was so very poor that even while Jarrett was
having a rough series schematically and in his match up

(29:00):
with Mitchell Robinson and Mobley was having a rough series
dealing with the with the Knicks physicality and a gump
gunked up pay, it wasn't like JB had anywhere else
to go. Like, if you had some functional depth, it
gets a lot easier to only play Jarrett, you know,
eighteen to twenty two minutes in a playoff game, and
like that wouldn't be below the station of a player

(29:22):
that's you know, that in that salary bracket. So I
just feel like the urgency to move mobiley to the five, Like,
I think it actually kind of sells you short, especially since,
as we've noted, you're probably not getting an equivalent level
player at the three just because of the way three
like it if you were to move on from Allen,
just because of the way threes are valued in the league.

(29:42):
So like what I would rather do if you're not
so if I if I'm running the Cavs and I'm
not so sure about the long term future of the
of the Mobley Allen pairing being a top end successful
lineup that I can that I can run, run for
thirty minutes together in a play off game. I'm just
looking to juice everything around them right now, because that

(30:03):
that feels like a much more functional and efficient use
of resources. Uh then you know, just trading or moving on,
just just to move on, just to say you tried
something different. Now, if a great stretch five becomes available,
which they are, like three of those guys like the
very and the center, Yeah yeah, that's it's it's not

(30:26):
exactly everywhere. I mean, you got one of them, uh yeah,
he's yeah, and he's a billion years old, so you know,
it's one of those things where like I just feel
like the Calves need to chase lineup versatility and give
themselves more tape of other things before they make something rational.
That's something I want to ask you about the Celtics
because that's another reason why I'm not so sure about

(30:48):
this for Zingis move because last year, two years ago,
the Celtics were able to say, hey we can go
double big and and really and really challenge you with
our size, but hey we can also downshift. We can
throw Grant Williams in and be switchier and have a
little bit more shooting on the floor. We can play

(31:10):
five out a little bit more. And obviously Porzingis jumper
allows you still play five out. But are you worried
at all about them giving up some stylistic diversity, Losing
Grant Williams the guy who can guard down and guard up,
losing Marcus Smart, a guy who can guard down and
guard up. Moving into this season, I think.

Speaker 3 (31:31):
It's tough to hate losing Grant a vacuum when you're
replacing him with Porzengis essentially in that front court, make
sure keeping the two other guys there. I do think
he brought a lot of valuable things and a shot
was super reliable, I still can't believe how they underutilized
them last year. But to that point, they underutilized them
last year. He rarely played down the stretch and they

(31:52):
still became the two seed and went to these finals
and all the rest. So I think it's tough to
say that he's going to be a brutal lost. I
like Shaper said a lot. I thought that was a
nice pickup at the minimum to at least fill the
kind of role Grant did last year, which was in
sometimes out other times.

Speaker 2 (32:09):
That gives you well Canadian. So he's a great dude.

Speaker 3 (32:12):
Love him. I covered him in college. I'm thrilled to
cover him again this year. So this you know, that
pickup was nice. You have versatility if Brogden's healthy. And
that's why I think one of the biggest questions going
in this year is his health. You haven't heard a
ton about where he's at in the recovery. You haven't
seen much of him. Not that he's one of those
highlight guys that are going to be on social media

(32:32):
with the workouts, but.

Speaker 2 (32:35):
I really want to now, I really want to see
Malcolm Brogen just cooking dudes at the why Like just
absolutely embarrassing folks. That would be really fun.

Speaker 3 (32:43):
No, but he was great last year and he shot exceptional.
You thought he would playing off the Jays, and he did.
The one six man scored almost at will. The one
thing that blew me away about him, and I think
a lot of people like that move and it worked
out well until he got hurt. Was that. A lot
of guys have like shooting slumps during the year, right,
they have dups and downs of that hot stretch of

(33:05):
you know, go ice cold for a little bit. He
just shot well every game the whole way through. You know,
he had a few bumps in the run in the postseason,
but through the regular season he just kept shooting well.
It was like every game he was seven for fourteen
or ten for thirteen, and he'd just be great. And
you know, I think his defensive slip, there's no doubt
about it. I think the contract's probably a little bit high.

(33:26):
But they're eating that. And if you have an owner
who's willing to eat that, that's a luxury. So he'll
help you go. Two guards Jalen and Jason at the
three and the four, and then a center out there.
And of course, as you said, Porzingis can stretch the
four out too. There are a lot of things Porzingis
those that I think are luxury offensively, that I think
are going to continue to really pressure teams. One thing
I hear most about the Celtics around the league, and

(33:48):
you know, more often than not it's very positive, is
that they have tough shot makers. And now you add
a third guy who's just capable of pulling up from
their half court or you know, hitting those little fifteen
footers or even posting up at a high level like
he did last year. So he's going to be another
pressure point for defenses. My question isn't as much about
the lineup flexibility and those sort of things of the depth.

(34:10):
It's about how the main players utilize each other. I mean,
you have three massive usage guys, you have pretty much four.
You know, your top four players aren't phenomenal playmakers. I
thought Smart was the best passer on this team and
he lost him, and you know, Tatum's still growing in
that sense. But you know, I have three guys who
really need shots, who really need to get to their spots,

(34:31):
and you really don't have that great organizers we've talked
about with this team for a while to get them there,
you know, to prevent turnovers. I think White's exceptional at that.
But is White going to have the ball more than
Tatum and brand do? Probably not. So that's my biggest
question for the offense coming in this year is just
how it all functions.

Speaker 2 (34:49):
Yeah, the individual talent is obviously really high for Boston,
and then we'll see how they're able to interact with
one another and if they're able to provide the kind
of support that we receive from Zoom. Support for this
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(35:11):
the globe. Zoom how the world connects.

Speaker 1 (35:14):
I'm sleepy, and that one caught me off guard.

Speaker 2 (35:16):
It's funny, Bobby, I got to ask you. I agree,
like I think swapping porzingis having him come in instead
of Grant Williams. That's an upgrade. I thought it was
really smart that you pointed out how he's going to
impact the team on the defensive end, because I think
people primarily focus on the offense with him. I do
agree that that's going to be an upgrade from I'm
interested to see how he plays with Robert Williams. To me,

(35:39):
my biggest question and why I feel like Boston got
a little bit worse overall, is one of the leadership
component that you lost with Marcus Smart. You need to
see who's going to step up and fill that void.
I also felt like one of the biggest problems for
Boston and why they've been so inconsistent the last couple
of years has been playmaking. Like I feel like they

(36:00):
have had a playmaking deficit. Someone that can organize everyone
and make them more than the sum of their parts.
And Marcus Smart I don't think he was good enough
in that role, but he was also kind of their
main organizer out there on the court. And when you
lose him and you're really only replacing him with poor
Zincis in terms of guard support, I worry about the

(36:21):
Celtics playmaking. Huh, what level of confidence do you have
because even if Malcolm Brogden's healthy, like that's still the
guy that was already there. Do you kind of foresee
someone stepping up in that role? Is Is there something
I'm kind of missing in this mix?

Speaker 3 (36:36):
Yeah, it's White. I love Derek White, And what still
stinks most about that East Finals is his legendary moment,
and it really would have been up there with the
great Boston sports moments that tip In just gets forgotten.
And he was so great last year. Five hundred threes
for him last year, shot nearly forty percent between the

(36:58):
regular season and playoffs. He was awesome. And like his
turnover assist ratio is incredible too. He's a relatively low
usage guy, but you know he'll put up like three
four assists in a game and average one turnover. So
I think they're really relying on him to make elite
next year. All the different analytics and catch all is
like Rapptor and all that I think speak really highly

(37:20):
of him. And a lot of times late in games
he wouldn't be out there because they'd put Smart and
Broaden out there. You know, I was looking at some
film and stuff he did, like I do think there's
some potential for him to have that little two man
game with Tatum. He's an exceptional screener, great playing off
the ball, and he hit his shots last year too,
So I do think. You know, this team's biggest issue
really from a playmaking and offensive execution standpoint, because they

(37:43):
were the number one offense last year. Right during the
regular season is crunch time, and if you look at
the numbers, it is really interesting. And I think this
is probably the best argument in favor of getting rid
of Smart, was that Smart would take the most shots
for this team and crunch time, like teams would sell
out on Brown and Tatum, the ball would, you know,

(38:04):
funnel to Smart and he would take a three. And
you know, he's not the greatest shooter in the world
for all the other strengths in his game, so he
had that dog in him. He did, and you know
you could for that reason too, it was tough to
take him out of games. Even im really struggled with that.
I think, you know, there was only really one memorable
moment that year where he left him on the bench
late in the game, so you don't have to play

(38:26):
him anymore because he's gone, And I think that is
probably something that they were intrigued by too, and making
that shift. You and I said this a lot too.
You don't lose a ton going from Smart to White.
The pick and roll numbers are just a tiny bit
worse the defense. I mean White with all defense last year.
You know, he's not the defensive player of the year.
He's not guarding fives, but exceptional at guarding the wings.

(38:49):
In fact, they're in the finals. I thought he guarded
Curry much better than Smart. I think he's better with
some of those quicker guards because he's a little bit quicker.
He's also you know, in terms of like the physical
point at which they're in their careers, I think White's
still a little bit closer to his prime and Smart
was so again calculated risk. I think it was a
good move saying we have three really good guards. We

(39:10):
have two centers right now, and one's usually injured and
one's a little bit older. So let's move one of
those guards over to you know, into an all star
level center. And they got two first round picks out
of it, which is, you know, I think what everyone's
looking at, saying.

Speaker 1 (39:25):
What the hell, Well, one first round pick and forty seven.

Speaker 3 (39:29):
True, I like a lot though they found a good
guy in the second round.

Speaker 1 (39:34):
Yeah, I wanted to ask you, you know, it's funny
you hear hearing you talk about the playmaking. It kind
of makes me think of a cavalier's discussion because for
all the things they did really well in the off season,
one thing they didn't really do was address the rebounding.
You know, they didn't They added Struce and the Yang.
The Yang's never been a good rebounder for his position.

(39:55):
Streuce is like, you know, gravitated around average for his
busy and obviously you know that was probably the like
the loudest headline from the series was that, you know,
they just got pulverized on the defensive boards. And Justin
and I were talking through that, and I kind of
came down to, like, listen, if the guys we have
don't get better at rebounding, like going and chasing a

(40:18):
rebounding specialist is not gonna save us.

Speaker 2 (40:23):
No I want, I want, I want to do what
he's up.

Speaker 1 (40:26):
To get Like, if it takes like a ninth man
rebounding specialist to help shore up the boards, this team
is not going to make it as far as we
want them to. And like, do you kind of feel
that way about the playmaking, Like if Marcus Smart, if
Marcus Smart has to be here for us to have
a functional offense, then like what we have just isn't

(40:47):
gonna work right.

Speaker 3 (40:48):
It's it's Tatum. He got better at passing out of
double teams, but what are you doing after them? And
you still moving and you really, you know, are you
still active and involved after that point? I don't think
he was great with that. The turnover in big spots
with him can be maddening. And you know, this is
where I get to the coaching a little bit too.
I think Tatum season, which was obviously sensational, like highest

(41:10):
scoring ever, first team, you know, defense took a little
bit of a hit, but it's still strong on that end.
The play from a playmaking sense and what they're doing offensively.
They didn't work the ball as much last year. You
saw it early when they were twenty one and five,
where they just had these great layers of playmaking and
you can really just tell even though I'm sure some
games against the Cavs or the ball is just really

(41:31):
zipping around with this team, and they're capable of doing that.
But I think, you know, and I understand it, but
it does drive me crazy. They wanted to just fire
up a three a lot of times, because you know,
there's a thinking that if you get an open shot
quick and you fire it allway, you're not going to
turn the ball over, you're going to get a shot up.
It's probably a pretty decent look. And like they were

(41:51):
just like five bombs away last year and Tatum too, Like,
you know, the name I heard a lot last year
was Loward. You know, Loward would take those long threes
early in the clock, hit him, stretch the defense out,
and then there'd be a lot of space for other
guy's top plate operate because the defense is just keying
in on him so much. But when he's not hitting,
and a lot of last year he wasn't, he'd go

(42:13):
on these massive, massive cold stretches when his mindset at
the point of attack was just bombs away three pointers.
It just killed me because you know, he is a
great driver. He can get in a pass out of
the lane, like I think he is a talented playmaker
when he's locked into that. But between like his own
lapses and I think some of the change in coaching

(42:33):
emphasis last year for things he was doing, like it
just impacted him in a negative way. I thought, as
a playmaker, Brown, that's a tough thing in giving this
three hundred million dollar deal is the playmaking's really not there,
and it's not there in a way where you probably
just aren't going to see it be there, you know,
into the future, which is fine if he's going to
be that finisher, but you know, the ball ends up

(42:55):
in his hot hands a lot of the time into
the second units, and the second unit really is struggled
with when he was leading it last year, just because
of the playmaking deficiencies he has. So again, every team's
gonna have a weakness. And this offense, it's not like
they finished twentieth and they were really struggling to score
last year. It was just those little moments, especially late

(43:16):
in games, where this offense that was historic to start
the year really lapsed. And yes, that does go back
to your best players. It goes back to Tatum, who
you know, watching him start one for thirteen in that
Philly game six, it was like, I things just really yeah,
if they lost that game, you know who's been you know,
the most scrutinized guy in the league this offseason, like
Harden or you know whoever it might be. Tatum would

(43:39):
have been the conversation all offseason if he went out
shooting the way he was in that game six before
he turned it around in a big way. And you know, listen.
I'm a Tatum believer. I really think he can be
the guy that leads this team to a championship. But again,
the urgency to improve at that spot, the consistency. I
do get worried about the coaching here a little bit,
just because when you looked at what they did last

(44:00):
season and where they finished and things Tatum did. I
think the coaching, you know, Joe would have been like, yep,
this is exactly what we wanted. And you know, we've
had some bad luck and injuries and all the rest. Again,
he got injured on the first play a Game seven
against the Heat, which is a valid excuse, but again,
how many more years do you have of those excuses?
The roster around him is going to deteriorate a little

(44:21):
bit now that Brown's making fifty million dollars a year
and Tatum in short order, we're making fifty million dollars
a year. So can they keep White around at that point?
Is Borzing is still around at that point? That's why
these guys need to really improve their weak points now
because the supporting cast won't be as good in a
couple of years.

Speaker 1 (44:37):
How much how much does it does? Seeing like I
don't know about it if you felt this way, but
watching a guy like Jokic, you know, just rumble through
the playoffs and just kind of realizing like, we're probably
not going to have someone that good.

Speaker 4 (44:52):
Right, Like think of the difference between Tatum and jokicch Yeah,
so so like, if we're not going to have someone
that good, are one through five are gonna have to
be amazing together?

Speaker 1 (45:02):
And and our best player is good. They don't have
to be better, but they have to be able to
put together a series as good. And that's that's a
big ask, you know. Uh. And and it does I
feel like add a little urgency to to the to
the Tatum agenda a little bit.

Speaker 3 (45:18):
Oh man, if they if they won that Game seven,
it would have been Nuggets in five at best, Like
the Nuggets would have smoked them. And that's a problem
right now because they're gonna be back again this year.
And I do think the East is relatively weak. He
lost a lot, they really did, bucksed so yeah, I mean.

Speaker 2 (45:40):
Yeah, I mean Miami got worse, Boston got worse. Like
the East sucks, man.

Speaker 3 (45:45):
Yeah, I know. So it's it's tough seeing what the
Nuggets are doing right now because they're a machine. But
again the thinking is be in the mix, get some luck.
You know, maybe the nuggets aren't there when you get
to the finals, and you know, see how it goes.
But again, that does have to be that urgency to
improve internally and be connected, as you said, Carter, because
they don't have that machine offensively that's able to do

(46:09):
like everything the way Yokic is or Lebron is at
his best, or you know whatever other name you want
to throw out the upper upper seawan the league. And
Tatum's right there, you know, especially right.

Speaker 1 (46:18):
On the border. But I think he's right on the border.

Speaker 3 (46:21):
But he's not there, right Curry and Joannis and those types, right.

Speaker 2 (46:26):
Yeah, And Tatum was the guy when we did our
Bucks preview that I said he he's probably the one
that could bridge the gap, like to make up for
a bit of the playmaking deficit because if he starts
to play more as kind of you know that that
point forward at times and provide that supplemental playmaking and
on a consistent basis, I think that's going to make
them more reliable because you're you're right, like Boston did

(46:48):
have the best offense and this is one of those
times where you know the averages are what they are.
I get it. But at the same time, if you
don't have highlight playmaking and you're not able to generate
good shots, like, eventually you get tired. Eventually you get
a little bit about out of the rhythm, right, Like
I never like the Daryl Morey Well, yeah, you know

(47:10):
we missed twenty seven threes.

Speaker 3 (47:12):
But you know that's who they are now.

Speaker 2 (47:15):
Yeah, the law of percentages, right, Like, No, I get
that it's a high quality shot, but you also have
to factor that these are human beings out there and
you need to be able to when you're not in
a group, get some easy buckets, get some high quality looks,
get guys comfortable so that once they are taking those
shots again, they're going to have a higher likelihood of

(47:35):
going down. And I agree with you. I think Jason
Tatum that is that's the real kind of internal opportunity
for growth with Boston, because if he becomes a more
consistent playmaker, I do think that that moves the need
for him and kind of calm some of the concerns
that I've had. I mean, I mean, obviously concerns I
have for Boston. I'm hoping that things go poorly for

(47:56):
you guys, because you know, the more things that go
poorly for these other teams that we discussed, the better
it is for the calv But I.

Speaker 1 (48:03):
Do want I hate I hate the Celtics.

Speaker 2 (48:06):
Well, I mean, there's that whole part of this is
without saying that that that that is implied. But let's
let's get into kind of where you see the Eastern Conference.
Because you said you don't you feel like it got
a little bit worse. It's not super strong. I don't
know if I totally agree that it's not strong, but
it certainly is interesting. I mean, the team we didn't
even talk about yet is Philly. Uh that isn't a

(48:27):
little bit of disarray. How would you rank the top
six of the Eastern Conference? So the teams you feel
are most confident too that they're going to miss the play.

Speaker 3 (48:36):
In Obviously the Celtics are in that mix. I think
you look at the.

Speaker 2 (48:41):
Best where but where I need rankings I need I
think from you, I think the Celtics.

Speaker 3 (48:46):
I think the Celtics come in at one because of
the amount of guys that I mean, you could sit
down round for a game and still have Tatum and
Porzingis and win more often than I I think you
have a second unit that can fill in if guys
need to sit down and win. And that's the key
to the regular season. It's why they were so great
last year too, is that they could be missing a
guy and everybody else would step up and win games.

(49:06):
So I have next to no concern about them in
the regular season. They're gonna win a ton of games.
I think they'll be the one seed the Bucks. Let's
see who's healthy, Let's see who's there gaming and game out. Like,
I think their supporting cast is really starting to look
a little bit unreliable in terms of how often they're available.
So you know, I lean toward them as the two.
But you know, Middleton's gone for a stretch again next year,

(49:29):
and I think they're in a tough spot, even though
they finished one last year without him for a while there. Like,
I think they're gonna have to be careful with the
amount of games that they play guys, so I'll saught
them in it. Two three is interesting, like that would
be where you'd put Philly if you felt confident that
they were gonna be that full mix. But after what

(49:49):
I saw from hard and waking up pulling out my
phone this morning. I don't feel great about him being
there or at least engaged, So I'm gonna have to
drop them down below home courtly uh for right now?
And you know, given what the Cavs net rating was
last year and their regular season success, along with getting
some other bodies in there, I'll throw them in a three.

Speaker 2 (50:11):
Yeah, pander away, Bobby, thank you.

Speaker 3 (50:14):
For I love what the nets? How not nets? The
next half?

Speaker 2 (50:17):
Oh, we were about to like launch into another podcast
because some people seem to feel like the nets are
going to be awesome.

Speaker 1 (50:24):
I'm like, you realize the world's pre eminent current nets hater,
don't I really have so strongly about them?

Speaker 2 (50:30):
I honestly I don't.

Speaker 3 (50:31):
Know why they were very bad after the trades? Thank you.

Speaker 2 (50:35):
That's like I feel like everybody has just like completely
overlooked that aspect.

Speaker 1 (50:40):
Do you want to know how passionate Justin is about this?
For no reason? You weren't even talking about them?

Speaker 2 (50:47):
No, he did. He said that, he said that he
missed almost launched me.

Speaker 1 (50:53):
He's basically going to talk about a team cutting down
the nets later, and you're going to talk about Michael
Bridges on off numbers.

Speaker 2 (51:00):
Defense, my friend.

Speaker 3 (51:02):
Continue, I feel so I feel so down on the
East as a whole that I still get to put
the sixers in that mix of four or five right there, so.

Speaker 1 (51:12):
You have them above the heat right now, they.

Speaker 3 (51:16):
Get to the heat. So let's throw the sixers at five. Okay,
I'm gonna put the heat by default at six. But
where we're sitting today with the Liuid deal incomplete and
maybe not happening, this roster's bad. And again I said
it all year last year, and so maybe I'm just

(51:36):
still so biased against the Heat, Like I don't get them.
I don't get their success. I don't get the whole
Butler thing. I don't know how they ended up in
the finals again last year boom, my mind, they lost
Vincent Struce. Maybe Martin comes back down there, we'll see.
I like they're paper thin team, Like the depth's not there.

(51:58):
They're so good at developing the undraft, the guys and
the you know whoever they're bringing in your and in
year out. And I know Jovich is catching a lot
of hype and I've actually liked what I've seen from
him in Summer League and Hakas looks like a great
fit there, but without seeing it, it's hard for me
to call them a home court. I mean, they were
the eight seed last year and they lost much of

(52:19):
that group, so a lot of unproven guys here. They're
an older group that doesn't play a lot of games
in general too. Lowry's still tend in the wrong direction,
Butler doesn't play a ton during the year. They're going
to be in that bottom half of the East again,
I think, and you know, playoffs are a different game,
and they're going to be that team again. I'd have
to imagine with Sposter coaching and Butler doing what he

(52:40):
does that time of year. But they're the six at
best to me, at least from a regular season standpoint here.
So those are my top six, uh look out for Indiana.
Love their roster. They were the sixth seed last year
before all the injuries struck. I think they're going to
take a big step this year. The Hawks I think
figured some stuff out log gym and the front core.

(53:00):
I think they'll probably be fighting a one that like
six seven line two.

Speaker 1 (53:04):
Especially Wells and Bowls feel like the two like ugly
teams that no one wants to like that are that
are like, we're just gonna have to have enough talent.

Speaker 3 (53:14):
Yeah, Like Young's there, de Rozan's there in Chicago, Like
those are regular season driving forces that keep them in
that mix.

Speaker 2 (53:21):
But and the Hawks also just come up in like
Siakam talks too, right, so that that would obviously move there.

Speaker 3 (53:27):
That would help too. Yeah, Raptors feel like they're gonna
drop out this year. They have the worst point guard
situation in the league. Losing Van Fleet for nothing's a killer,
and man did they just capsized last year. I don't
know much about their new coach, so I'm not feeling
great about them coming in this year. Yeah, triguur team
that I think could maybe step into that spot in
terms of the top ten. They were pretty strong last

(53:49):
year before they decided a tank late.

Speaker 2 (53:51):
Yeah, I think Indy's a good show. Like I think
that that's a good roster adding Bruce Brown is really
smart and I like that a lot. Yeah, yeah, like that.
They they just got guys that I really like. And
they were winning last year as you said, right, Like
they had a winning record when record when Haliburn was
in the lineup, so.

Speaker 3 (54:08):
They found a four you know, they were playing Smiths
at the four year ago. Now they get Obi top
and so I like that team. Good coach, Yeah, Halliburn's like's.

Speaker 2 (54:17):
Going to be so Obi is going to be good
in like a pace and space run, like spread, pick
and roll type offense.

Speaker 3 (54:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (54:24):
Yeah, he's gonna be fun there. And I agree with you.
I think Miami's roster is worse than last year. They
still might win more games in the regular season than
they did last year just because they were so injured.
But to your point, these are old guys that don't
play every game, right, Like Jimmy's going to miss time,
Kyle Lowry is going to miss time, And if a

(54:46):
Dame trade does materialize, I'm gonna be really curious to see, like.

Speaker 3 (54:49):
What everything Yeah, well it changes, it's changed.

Speaker 2 (54:53):
A Raptors take on Yeah yeah, you absolutely can, especially
if it's Raptors slander. But like, if Dame Trey does materialize,
I'm going to be curious to see how much shooting
goes out in that right, Like, because if it's Tyler
Hero and Duncan Robinson, well you already lost some shooters
this offseason to begin with, Like you're really really banking

(55:14):
on Caleb Martin being able to shoot in that scenario,
and obviously Dame's going to bring it to the table,
but that doesn't bring spacing around him because he's going
to be the one with the ball in his hands
most of the time. So I'm curious to see what
it is. I think even if he's there right like
Dame misses time in the regular season, I I don't
know if they're going to be a home court team
even with Dame, and that totally different. Once again, once

(55:38):
they get to the postseason, they'd be in that mix.
I would not want to play that team, But in
terms of the regular season, between the adjustment period between
the games those guys are probably going to miss, I
wouldn't expect them to be a home court team.

Speaker 1 (55:53):
I agree. And on the Dame front, I wanted to
sneak this on here, throwing out some of the off
season posturing from Dame's camp. Why shouldn't the Toronto Raptors
trade Scottie Barnes for Damiel Lollard. Why wouldn't he be
Why wouldn't he be in Why wouldn't he be in

(56:15):
the package? Like I listened to Sam Bessini and Adam
Spinella to kind of run through all the potential Dame destinations,
and the Raptors kind of felt like one of the
only teams that really like could conceivably make an offer
given the timeline of the other best players on their team,
and frankly, how they can. They seem to view their
their core pieces like you can make jokes all you want.

(56:37):
They really like their guys by all reports, and they
really think that they are just, you know, a few
structural changes away from being a great Top of the
East team. Again, why shouldn't they, if they believe that,
make a push for Dame Loward.

Speaker 2 (56:53):
I don't think they do believe that, Like I if
they don't. Like the weird thing about the Siaka thing
is reportedly you know, wants to stay there. He wants
an extension, and the Raptors don't want to give him that,
like they don't want to pay him that top dollar.
I I think a lot of it's posturing because this
is gonna be something that needs to be blown up.
Like I just like, if you make that move, I

(57:15):
don't think Damon Siam wins you a championship. I think
is a hurdle, is a heck of a foursome and
would put would put them in competition with the top.

Speaker 1 (57:27):
Four in the East. And if you're there, you're you're
close enough.

Speaker 3 (57:32):
Yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (57:34):
Think they should just go young and build around.

Speaker 1 (57:36):
So they just don't believe in Scotti that much. I
feel like he's such a.

Speaker 3 (57:39):
I believe weird player slump. I wonder if the values
like would that be enough to really move Portland on
a trade. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (57:48):
I think it's I think if you're looking, like, the
thing that is interesting with Portland is, of course, like
they don't like the Miami offer, right because the best
young player they can get is hero who like they
have that archetype already. Toronto doesn't have quite the draft
capital that Miami does, but they have some they can

(58:09):
send out some picks and some swaps, and Barnes is
a heck of a better prospect than anything Miami is
is sending, even if you're skeptical about him. And Yeah,
and I don't think that he is a guy like
who is going to clash with the existing members of
their roster. He kind of does different stuff than than

(58:30):
Scoot would, does different stuff than Jeremy Grant, does different
stuff than Simon's does. I just feel like that fit
if you if you're looking to take a swing on
another top level talent like and get some draft compensation.
I actually think it's the best potential market you know,
offer on the market, But it just requires Portland to
go the other direction than what we thought they'd be going.

(58:52):
But like, I don't know, I just feel like Lillard
makes their roster make a lot more sense kind of
everything slots in.

Speaker 3 (59:01):
Yeah, especially where they're so bad at guard right now.
I can't believe they're going in this year with Shorter
at that spot. It's it's awful.

Speaker 1 (59:08):
Barnes, Yeah, right, Yeah, I don't really think he's a
point guard.

Speaker 2 (59:13):
I don't either. I think, you know, like I think
that's basically going to go how Yiannis at the point
when for Milwaukee like developed some skills. It's really ugly,
But eventually we're just going to move him to the
four and he's going to like fill that sacka roll
and we need to go out and get ourselves a
point guard like that. That's that's how this goes.

Speaker 3 (59:32):
And it's a good point. I'm stilling there more teams
in on him because of the contract you have them
for so long, like forget about that. I'm not going
to play in this and that, like and Toronto's tricky,
Like maybe he would be really pissed off going north
of the border. There's doesn't seem like a lot of
guys want to play for the Raptors. But Brooklyn, Like
he was even on IG Live saying like yeah, Bridges, Brooklyn, like,

(59:54):
that's a spot I'd go. But now all of a sudden,
it's just Miami, Like I think Brooklyn should get in
on this team.

Speaker 1 (01:00:00):
I don't think Brooklyn should get in on it. I
don't think they have a player of you know, I
don't think they have a core as good as og the.

Speaker 3 (01:00:12):
Like. There has never been draft picks more of a
sure thing than those future sons picks that they have
because just they're not going to have picks. These guys
are older aside from Booker, they don't have any depth.
They're up and coming guys. When this whole little big
three thing that they're doing is done, it's done, they're.

Speaker 1 (01:00:29):
Going to be I just I just like whatever they're
going to have to give up player wise to get that,
get a trade like that over the over the end.

Speaker 3 (01:00:37):
So this might be crazy, but I think Portland should
like Simmons coming back. That's there's just there's just nothing
to lose at this point.

Speaker 2 (01:00:46):
I just feel like there's a difference between nothing to
lose and this is a primary piece coming back, like
when you're matching salary, like that's what he would be, right,
because you're not getting anything else really other than the
deal I.

Speaker 3 (01:01:00):
Would are going to give a lot, Like I don't
love the heat deal, but it's not nothing, especially with
the it's.

Speaker 1 (01:01:07):
A perfectly fine deal.

Speaker 3 (01:01:08):
Yeah, and I'm not here doesn't help you a ton
as a centerpiece us. I guess that is the problem there.

Speaker 2 (01:01:14):
I guess it depends, like you hear that being like
a thirdeam kind of thing right at the same time, like,
I don't know, I might keep Tyler Hero and move
Anne Simon's instead, but that's maybe here there.

Speaker 1 (01:01:27):
Oh, I'm there. I'm there with you, buddy.

Speaker 2 (01:01:29):
Yeah, I'm not.

Speaker 1 (01:01:31):
A big there.

Speaker 3 (01:01:33):
Here is pretty good.

Speaker 2 (01:01:35):
Well, I'm glad that Bobby Manning was here with us.
So this was a lot of fun, a lot of
I'm I'm excited to see what next season looks like.
The Cavs Celtics games were just awesome last year almost
every one of those. One went to overtime Calves one
of a bunch of them, which made it even more fun.

Speaker 3 (01:01:54):
The Grant one, that was really fun.

Speaker 2 (01:01:56):
Yeah, the Grant Williams one will forever make them. Yeah,
that will forever be a highlight. And and now we
got Celtics killer Max Struth coming in to get you,
so that'll be a lot of fun.

Speaker 3 (01:02:09):
Can I sneak this in before we get out here?
One year in? Was the Mitchell deal the right move?

Speaker 1 (01:02:17):
Yeah? I just I think so, I think, yes, yeah,
you go, you elaborate for his card, and I think yes,
I think I mean he had the best season of
his career, and the team was really really really good,
and and and really I just think the roster was
so strangely constructed and so shallow that it was just

(01:02:38):
really hard to know. You know, Like I've spent all
I spent the entirety of the off season heading into
free agency in the draft saying like, hey, can we
just like make this all make sense so we can
actually know like a little bit more. Can we knock
out the simple stuff so we're not playing it on
a we're not running out of roster that literally has
two plus shooters that can play men for them, uh

(01:03:02):
and and no lineup versatility and maybe six guys the
coach trusts. Like it's just it's just I felt like
in practice, last season's roster that went into that next series,
despite being mostly healthy, just like was, had so many
flaws that it was hard to evaluate. Like so, like

(01:03:23):
my my real answer is, ask me next year, ask me,
ask me after a season of a roster that has
some depth, that has shooting and complimentary up and adjustable
play styles, because like, all I know is the guy
was a top ten player in the league last year.
Uh and we won uh seven more games than we

(01:03:45):
did last year, and the team remains young in town
without having to give away the three young guys that
we love on the roster to get them.

Speaker 2 (01:03:54):
Yeah, so I would saying still Yeah for me, I
think Darius Garland and Evan Mobili like kind of as
your most inner of the core when it came to
kind of evaluating what you were looking at prior to
the trade. I think those guys are good enough that
they're ready to overachieve at a young age. And I
think getting someone like Donovan Mitchell getting the increased expectations

(01:04:18):
getting teams to game plan for you that much harder
dealing with, you know, a playoff failure where you're expected
to win and you just really get roughed up and
it's embarrassing, it sucks, you hate it. I think going
through that earlier in the process helps us kind of establish, Okay,
what type of players need to be around these guys,

(01:04:39):
what type of changes do they need to make? Right,
And especially in the context of mobili how can you
develop your game individually within the context of a very
good team. I think those type of developmental reps are
so important. Rather than all right, we're going to just
mostly have kind of role guys around you and Garland,
we're just going to stretch it out. You'll play heliocentric

(01:05:02):
like one to five pick and roll. You'll both get
your stats. It won't translate to the playoffs, but it's
going to look really good and you can kind of
work on your game that way. I think trying to
develop yourself individually within the context of a good team
where you do have other stars and you have to
figure out that balance, I think that's so much more
valuable and it helps make your game more scalable. When

(01:05:22):
you talk about team buildings. So we'll obviously see after
this year. And like there's the question don Mitchell in
I personally think that that this is probably as good
of a situation as you can have for him, and
I truly believe that is number one priorities winning. But
I think in terms of the development of this team,

(01:05:44):
the trade was absolutely.

Speaker 3 (01:05:45):
That's the only reason I asked is because you hate
to hear after one year, though, is he going to stay?
Is he going to extend that whole thing?

Speaker 1 (01:05:53):
Yeah, if it ends early, then you know we'll have to,
you know what, we would have to reevaluate. But like
the reality is, like I'm not a big captain hindsight
on this sort of thing, Like like unless, like I guess,
if they gets the finals, in every play every core
member of the Cavs plays awesome except Donovan Mitchell. I
guess that's when it wouldn't be a good idea. But

(01:06:15):
other than that, it's just so interdependent that it's like, listen,
if Mobley never takes the next step on offense, or
Jarrett never you know, figures out how to to to
handle the Mitchell Robinson's of the world, and Darius doesn't
isn't able to put three four really great games in
a in a row together. They were never going to

(01:06:36):
get to a title anyway. So it's like, you know,
like I to some extent, like fortune favors the bold,
and like I don't. And for a market like Cleveland,
it's not like superstar acquisitions are just falling off trees
like you got it. Sometimes you gotta go get them,
and you gotta just go get one when they're available,

(01:06:56):
especially in this modern market where every other star seems
to be pre selecting their destination and making a pretty
big deal about it that they have to go there,
whereas Donovan Mitchell galloped around a golf course in celebration
after the caps by all reports. So, like, you know,
I think ultimately, given all that context, I still think

(01:07:18):
it was a worthwhile move, And I probably more so
than I did when they made the trade, because Justin
and I were Mitchell's skeptics. So you know, like now
that I think about I think I'm more resolved that
it was a good idea than I was one year ago.

Speaker 2 (01:07:32):
Yeah, I agree like Mitchell making the leap that he did,
like we were hopeful that maybe he could, you know,
playing alongside Darius Garland that that was going to be
beneficial to him. But they played so well and they
had so little spacing. I think it speaks to kind
of the creativity that they had. And you know, obviously
not all of that translated to the playoffs, but like

(01:07:53):
from a Donnovan Mitchell standpoint, he's always going to play
shooting guard because his playmaking skills aren't at that point
guard level in the NBA, so he's always going to
need to play next to a point guard, which means
no matter where he goes, he's probably going to be
dealing with a small backcourt. And if you're going to
have a small backcourt, you probably want to have two
guys like Evan Mobley and Jared Allen defending it and

(01:08:15):
protecting behind you. The fact that Mobley and Allen the
offense was better with them together than either of them individually.
Like the fact that Garland and Mitchell worked so well,
and it removed kind of the drop off offensively that
we saw that one year where it was basically you know,
Darius and Jared running the entire show. Like all of
that was so encouraging. So I'm I'm I'm excited to

(01:08:38):
see what this ends up being next year, because I
like the moves and obviously you know rebounding is a concern,
but if that's kind of one of your biggest concerns
going in, that's not a bad place to be in.

Speaker 3 (01:08:50):
Yeah. We had the defense conversation going in the last
year and it didn't really rear its head at all.
They were great defensively.

Speaker 2 (01:08:56):
Yeah, even even against the Nicks.

Speaker 1 (01:09:00):
The next I know else that was the problem.

Speaker 2 (01:09:03):
It drives me nuts. It drives me nuts.

Speaker 3 (01:09:05):
That was a shocking series. It really was. Man, they
just beat their ass.

Speaker 1 (01:09:09):
I prefer depressing.

Speaker 3 (01:09:11):
Yea was.

Speaker 1 (01:09:12):
I was shell shocked, man, like, what is going on?
It was terrible, terrible.

Speaker 2 (01:09:18):
And we had Andrew Claudio on from Next Film School
last week and even he said, he's like, yeah, you
replay that series. It probably doesn't go five.

Speaker 3 (01:09:27):
Julius Randall, I guess that's the win you get out
of that is hey have to deal with that whole thing.

Speaker 2 (01:09:33):
You know what, we are not allowed to make any
Knicks jokes. We are not allowed to make any Knicks
jokes for a little while.

Speaker 3 (01:09:40):
Fair enough.

Speaker 1 (01:09:41):
I will pass on that one second round as when
I'm comfortable cracking a few jokes the next way. Until then,
I'm going to treat them with their proper respect and
bound my head.

Speaker 2 (01:09:52):
Yeah, a little tip of the cap, but I will
pass on that instead. Pass it over to you, Bobby,
so you can let the people know what you got
going on, what you want to before we wrap this
thing up.

Speaker 3 (01:10:01):
Yeah, we did a little hard and think today on
the Garden Report, So go check that out. CELNS Media
Celtics All Access is where all my reporting is on YouTube,
So go over there and subscribe to that channel against
Celtics All Access Celingsmedia dot com for the writing and
every weekend at Boston Sports Journal dot com as well.

Speaker 2 (01:10:20):
Thank you so much, man, Really do appreciate it, really
appreciate everyone tuning in live on YouTube. Make sure you
like and subscribe. Click notification belts you know when we're
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you choose to support us, we really do appreciate it.

(01:10:40):
Make sure you guys are staying safe out there. Until
next time, Go Cass,