Feeling Defensive

Justin and Carter dive into whether or not the Cavs will be able to maintain their defensive identity after the moves this offseason and the role Isaac Okoro will need to play within the rotation. 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This crowd rises to us being.

Speaker 2 (00:03):
What Carl slam it?

Speaker 1 (00:04):
Oh, Darlin left wing reball.

Speaker 2 (00:06):
Perfect, Darlin pop the helift block, the shot at the rim,
how in the left hand and a fowl. Welcome to
Chase Doown Podcast, part of the Caves Media family. I'm
your host, Justin Rowan. The Chase Doown is presented by
Fubo TV. Watch over o one hundred channels of live
sports and TV for half the cost of cable. There's
no contract and no commitment. Try for free at FuboTV

(00:28):
dot com. Folks, I could not be more excited. It
is less than three weeks until we get the first
CAS preseason game of the year. It's right around the corner.
We only got a couple more of these podcasts before
we actually have basketball to discuss. And joining me today
to discuss the calves and try to kill some time
before the games begin is my co host, Carter Rodriguez.

Speaker 1 (00:51):
Carter, how you doing, Buddy? Give us some time. Indeed,
you know you you could argue there are no debtor days,
no dogger days than these days we were because the
reward is just right there, you know, like like we're
subsisting off. Buddy, heeled trade rumors on Twitter dot com
or x dot com. I still call it Twitter. I'm
never going to break that. You know, I'm doing well.

(01:15):
I'm getting really excited. Media days just around the corner,
and Cavs basketball is right around the corner. I think
I've kind of forgotten how good this team was, you know,
like during during the regular season. I think, you know,
and if there are any blessings to be taken from
that not so fun playoffs experience, I think it actually
has kind of suppressed my internal expectations for how the

(01:37):
regular season is going to feel when this team's really
clicking on all cylinders.

Speaker 2 (01:41):
Folks, there, you have a definitive proof that Carter does
not listen to me on the podcast, because if you've
forgot how good this team is during the regular season,
it means you're just not listening to me, buddy, Like
I'm always ranting and raving about how awesome this team is.
I could not be more excited to actually see this
team take off, especially because you look at the Eastern
Conference and man, the top of the East it's a

(02:04):
little shaky. You have, you know, stars talking about, you know,
the pressure of the season, whether or not they want
to stay there. Dysfunction all around, and the Caves are
one of those teams that actually has continuity. They've brought
in some guys that make a lot of sense, a
guy like Max Strus that has played in a similar
offensive system, playing off of a big man like bam Like.

(02:27):
I'm just excited to see how all this goes. And
the good news for fans is that the NBA has
announced a new player participation policy basically to kind of
curb some of the resting that we're seeing, especially in
big matchups, but in particular the resting for star players,
which the Caves have three players that meet that criteria.

(02:51):
The criteria is that a player has to have been
named to an All Star or an All NBA team
in the last three years. That means obviously Darius Arland,
Jared Allen, and Donovan Mitchell would qualify for that. Some
of the other kind of notes from the NBA's press
release is that the player participation policy, it's meant to

(03:13):
manage its roster to ensure no more than one star
player is unavailable for the same game. So if you
are going resting, you got to get a little creative
there ensure that star players are available for all national
television and all NBA in season tournament games. Maintain a
bounce between the number of one game absences for star
players in home and road games. Refrain from any long

(03:36):
term shutdowns in which a star player stops playing games
if a resting player, if resting a healthy player, ensure
that the player is present at the games invisible to fans.
The policy also includes Yeah, that one made me laugh.
The long term shutdowns is very clearly like to kind
of limit the end of season tanking kind of thing.

(03:58):
We're certain players that you know, uh, you know, Damian
Lillard comes to mind in Portland where there were questions
about whether or not he was healthy at the end
of the year. And the last kind of note is
that the policy includes exemptions for injuries, personal reasons, and
pre approved back to back restrictions based on a player's age, career, workload,
or serious injury history. Carter, what were your thoughts when

(04:20):
when you saw this kind of come down for the league?

Speaker 1 (04:23):
Well, I'll tell you what, justin it's really going to
help with continuity over the course of the regular season,
which isn't something I can say for this podcast because
we got stuck on the going live screen. Uh, and
I believe we didn't. I didn't believe we were like
three minutes in before anyone could see what was happening.
So listen to the audio, guys. I'm not going to
fix this later. But you know, we got all the

(04:44):
way through your your your opening spiel. We just missed
like our bands are at the beginning. It's it's not
a problem, you know. I think it's a little bit
of a bummer that, you know, we have to have
a player participation policy. But also, like you know, I
think it's probably you know, if I have a gripe,
it's with the name, you know, it almost implies the players,
the ones who are wanting to sit, and by all
reports it kind of seems to be team training staffs

(05:07):
and and and you know a lot of this, a
lot of the medicals behind you know, load management that
has you know, in most cases, star players sitting and
not you know, overly taxing their bodies on these four
games and five night stretches. And I think that was
evidenced by the finds being directed at the teams, right, like,

(05:27):
it's not the players that are going to be fined
in these instances it's going to be levied against the teams. Yeah,
absolutely so. I think ultimately this, you know, I think
it's going to no matter whether, no matter the optics
of it, I think the end outcome is we're going
to see more star players playing basketball games, and like

(05:49):
who can complain, you know, like and like, you know,
it seems to be loose enough where it's like, hey,
you know, if you're Kawhi Leonard, you kind of always
have a knee injury from now on, like you know,
like like you always have that. Like like you know,
some of these stars who have had these kind of
catastrophic injuries, like, yeah, it's always going to you know,
be a little you know, you talk to any athletes

(06:10):
who's had one of those, like they always kind of
feel it, and like I think that I think there
it's lucy goosey enough to protect players who you know,
legitimately really need the rest, as opposed to like guy
feels fine, team feels fine, guy still sits anyway, Like
getting rid of those if that's all this policy does,

(06:34):
been great. You know it worked, and you know it
kind of feels like it can't hurt type of thing
for me, Like you know if there's a little more
pressure on players to play and for players to you know,
show up to the game. And you know, I do
like the show up, even if you're sitting like so
fans can say I saw Joe Moran, I saw Darius Garland,
I saw you know, the Zion Williamson, whoever these stars are.

Speaker 2 (06:59):
I ever tell you about my first NBA game that
I attended live, I believe you have, but go ahead
and tell the audience. It was Minnesota. They were playing
against Detroit, and we showed up and Chauncey Billups, Rip Hamilton,
and Rashid Wallace. I think even Ben Wallace all sad
for that game. So it did go to overtime. That
was a lot of fun TA shown. Prince had a

(07:19):
great game, but a little bit disappointing. But at least
she'd was kind of walking around pregame work, working out
with Amir Johnson, all those guys, saying hi to the fans,
So that part was nice. But I was just excited
to see NBA basketball at that point. But I think,
looking back now, having gone to a few love games,
that would probably disappoint the living hell out of me.

Speaker 1 (07:40):
One of those games and like I know that it
sounds a little trite when people say, you know, when
people talk about like the you know, the family this
scrounges up to go to their one game a year,
But like there's a lot of those families. Man, there's
a lot of people who want to see their favorite
players playing. You know, like if the league, you know,

(08:02):
it doesn't seem like the league or the players are
particularly interested in cutting games off the schedule and losing
all that revenue. So if you're if you're going, if
you've got a problem you like in this is one
thing I think Adam, the Adam Silver Era really gets
a lot of credit for us when there is a problem,
when the when the when the science or the analytics

(08:23):
have said, do this thing that isn't all that fun
to watch. I think the Silver Era has mostly done
a good job of reacting to that. Like, you know,
like David Stern didn't have to deal with take fouls
in transition because no one was doing them yet.

Speaker 2 (08:40):
You know.

Speaker 1 (08:40):
But like like this is like we're in the moneyball
era in every sports league, and every sports league can
either just get less fun to watch while teams, you know,
exploit things for advantages at the expense of the entertainment value,
or they can do what baseball did and implement a
pitch clock, or you can do it, but you know

(09:01):
football did and you know, open up some you know,
make the rules a little tilted towards the offense so
we're not just having like, you know, wide receivers just
getting decapitated midfield. In basketball, it's stuff like take fouls
and making sure players aren't being load managered out of
a fun night out for a family. Like, you know,

(09:21):
I think that in some ways, like you know, and
I think we've had plenty of criticisms for some things
that Silver has done. You know, it's not like we
have one hundred percent approval rating here, But I do
think like we kind of forget that their jobs are
just getting harder every time, because, like commissioners jobs are

(09:42):
getting harder all the time because there's just so many
more exploits. You know. I always joke that, like, like
no one when they wrote the first set of NFL
football rules or basketball rules was accounting for the idea
that the offensive player might be trying to trick the official. Yeah,
there's like no one ever considered that when they were

(10:03):
making these games up in the backyard. So I think
it's a tremendously hard job. Like the optics of it
are a little weird, but you know whatever, who cares. Yeah,
I think this is a lot about changing the narrative.
And yeah, I do think one of the things you
consistently hear is that it's teams that are making these decisions.

Speaker 2 (10:23):
You know, players want to play, and I think they
want to change that perception. And you know, having stars
play for national TV games like that matters. Like the
TNT guys like Kenny Chuck, all those guys, those are
probably the only times that they watch a lot of
these teams play. So if the stars are resting, guess
what they're going to be talking about a halftime they're
going to be complaining about that. You look at ESPN

(10:44):
changing up the broadcast crew and getting rid of I
know you have a saft spot for Van Gundy, but
a lot of times it didn't sound like he was
enjoying what he was watching. And I think a lot
of this is about, you know, kind of changing the
narrative there, I will say, as people become more aware
that it's the team's making this decision, the teams are

(11:05):
also in a really tough spot as well, because you
know you're put in these spots where you are playing
four games in five nights, multiple cities. There's big time
wear and tear on these athletes. They're coming into the
league with more wear and tear in their bodies than
ever before. You watch a game from the two thousands,
and if you go even further back, there is just
so little movement off ball right compared to nowadays. Nowadays,

(11:30):
every single player is involved in every single offensive set.
There's so much movement. There's so much you know, the
guys are bigger, faster, stronger, there's more chance at collisions,
are stepping the wrong way, so you're going to have
those injuries. So the big thing that I would still
like to see, I would love to trim some of
the preseason out I'd like to get creative with, you know,

(11:53):
playing those two games in the same city, those type
of things, to mitigate rest, to mitigate travel, to make
these decisions easier because I think at the end of
the day, teams would rather have guys play. Like I
think if you're the KAS and you're on the coaching
staff trying to plan rest days and stuff like that
you would rather be playing your guys and not be

(12:14):
put in a situation where rest is necessary. Players would
rather be playing, so, you know, making it more feasible
for them, they're eliminating some of the travel, eliminating making
it easier so that the rest isn't required. I think
it would be another step in a positive direction. But
I think overall this is giving the fans what they
want to see, which is the star of players out there.

(12:36):
And I think the NBA has got a really great product.
So the more times that you're out there showcasing it,
the better it is for the health and the growth
of the league.

Speaker 1 (12:45):
Yeah, stick with me while I try to land the
plane on this take here that I'm formulating in real time.
But we spend a lot of time talking about like
the rings culture impact on fans and how you know
it's you know, Taylor bust Or or you know, or
the players a loser on players where they're like, I
gotta go. I gotta get to a place where I'm

(13:07):
gonna where I can win a title because I'm going
to not be remembered well if I'm the guy who
never got there. We don't spend a lot of time
talking about how that has impacted teams and team building,
and like, you know, I wonder if, in you know,
maybe even just fifteen twenty years ago, if teams would

(13:27):
ever do that, if they would ever say, yeah, we're
gonna we're going to actively make our product a little
worse during the regular season, like pretty often, like ten
to fifteen times, you know, ten to fifteen out of
eighty two is quite a few times, yep, to make
that choice, and we're going we're going to increase our

(13:48):
chances of losing on the day because the only thing
our organization cares about is getting to a title contention.
Like I wonder how much that has kind of ended
up impacting the way these organizations run, because I feel
like across the board, even for organizations, it's less okay
to be a grit and gride Memphis Grizzlies team, Like

(14:10):
no one's aspiring to that right now, Like maybe, like
unless the team has just been bad for a really
long time, like you know, like the Kings. I think,
you know, maybe you could talk to that franchise and
to feel in that way, but almost everyone else is
like I got to find championship level players. I have
to maintain if I find them, I got to keep

(14:30):
them healthy. I got to make sure that they are
perfectly primed to be hitting their peak in the postseason.
Like there's just like I can't imagine that hasn't had
an impact on how organizations operate.

Speaker 2 (14:44):
I think you line to the plank guard. I thanks, buddy.
I think that's a really smart point. And you know,
and the investments right like, it's going up and up. Right,
player contracts are are going up. There's terms on them
are shorter than it was in the past. Right, Like,
when you have guys locked up on a seven year
deal you feel good about like the long term health

(15:05):
of the partnership, you have a serious injury. Now when
the guy's got two years left on his deal and
you miss a season, that could impact your entire team
building philosophy. That can you know, put a big sense
of urgency or waste a prime title contention year. So
making sure these guys are as healthy as possible obviously
ends up being a big priority. So overall, I think

(15:26):
it's good. I still think that there's steps you could
take in the right direction to make it easier for
teams and players, But I think this is overall positive.
We do have some Cavs news for you, Carter. We
got signings training camp deals have been signed for Sharif Cooper, Pete,
nance Justin Powell.

Speaker 1 (15:43):
So Sharif and Pete.

Speaker 2 (15:44):
Obviously we saw Summer League champions with the Cleveland Cavaliers.
Justin Powell another good shooter. I think that the thing
you can notice with basically all CALVS signings lately have
been guys with shooting talents. There has been one other
signing that I saw, Mike Scotto, who very reputable. Mike
does terrific work. He reported that Zaire Smith has been

(16:07):
signed to an Exhibit ten deal, although that hasn't been
confirmed by the team, but that is something that's out there.
Apparently he got that from Zaire's agent, so that's interesting.
Do you have any takes on these signings, Like the
first thing that jumped out to me is we're going
to be watching Cleveland Charge games as a family this year,
because I assume a lot of this is to keep

(16:29):
the rights for these guys, and when you already factor
in you know Craig Porter, Junior, Monty Baits, Isaiah Mobley,
this is gonna be a lot of fun. We might
have a Nance on the team, buddy.

Speaker 1 (16:40):
Yeah, I know that would be really dope, obviously, And
you know I love to see Nance and Cooper on
on the team just because you know, you like, you know,
we talk a lot about summer league and how it
doesn't really matter, and you know it's not that predictive,
but like you want to reward people who you know
play well for you and who do their jobs at

(17:01):
a high level. And like, you know, Cooper hasn't had
that NBA shot since he you know, left Atlanta, but
he's been such a great citizen for this, for this
Cavs franchise at large, you know, playing for the Charge,
playing for the Cavs Summer League team, and uh, and
you know it's cool to see him rewarded. Pete. I

(17:21):
thought Pete Nan showed a lot in summer League. You know,
he usually is a big guy, big frame. The jumper
went in at a reasonable clip. You know, he doesn't
have quite the quite the touch that is that is
a big brother dead.

Speaker 2 (17:33):
I would disagree with that. I think he's got more
shooting touch then than No.

Speaker 1 (17:36):
No, I'm sorry, I just said the wrong sentence. He
doesn't have the finishing touch that got his brother, you know,
missed a few bunnies around the rim.

Speaker 2 (17:45):
That where we go.

Speaker 1 (17:45):
Man, if you're flushing those or or you know, finishing
in transition, then all of a sudden, like you know,
your your your prospects look a lot better. But yeah,
you know, Larry, Larry's ruining people's days on those plays. Yes,
so I think ultimately what you want for your G
League team or either guys that you think might get
up to the next level or guys that are going

(18:08):
to be great citizens for you. Push the players that
you have down there, you know, help you win some games. Uh,
and you know, work on their own games and try
to get an opportunity, whether it's with the Calves or elsewhere.
And I think that's certain. You know, Cooper and Nance
certainly check that box. How not familiar with this game?
A redheaded shooter. Calves always need one, it needs We needed.

Speaker 2 (18:32):
To replace one on the charge.

Speaker 1 (18:34):
Yeah, yeah, so it it must, it must happen. And
then Zaire Smith is is an interesting one. You know
obviously that's a guy who was thought really really highly
of going into the draft. I mean, no one loves
to you know, it's it's a bummer for him, that
he was the guy the Sixers traded mcal bridges for.

(18:54):
They you know, they traded down in the draft and
picked up Zion Smith and the sons were will reap
the benefits and now the Nets are reaping the benefits
of mckel bridges. But like one of those lessons that
this is not the NFL and trading down in the
draft is never the move. Like you very rarely you
look at the Pelicans, you know, getting Jackson Hayes and no,

(19:16):
look instead of Darius Garland. That's that's tough. That's not
what you like to see. So I think that. But
you know, you look at his career and he had
like a horrible like season ending illness, like just like
a really raw raw deal. So he's still a really
young guy. Hope he can Hope he can show something,

(19:36):
Hope he can latch on. Like when you get to
the this this set of the roster, especially with a
CALVS roster that is quite set. They don't have a
lot of openings, even at the two way level. You
kind of just hope these guys impress and find themselves
a job, whether it's whether it's with the Cleveland Charge
or you know, best case for any of them is,

(19:57):
you know, with a big league club, And uh, I
I think at this level, at this part of the roster,
I think you're rooting for the guy more than the
franchise in a weird way.

Speaker 2 (20:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (20:08):
So like if Sharif Cooper leaves training camp with a
full time deal with with an NBA team, awesome, or
even a two way spot, right, yeah exactly, So like
that's I would root for that for these guys, especially
since we don't have any openings right now on the
on the main club, we obviously have that one roster spot,

(20:30):
but kind of looks like that's going to stay open
for cap maneuvering reasons. So yeah, I'm excited. I I
and Frank'll just be nice to like have that continuity.
You're not like throwing a bunch of randos in there
trying to learn some of your key sets. Like, these
guys also got to help the main guys get ready
through camp. That's their other job. And the fact that

(20:52):
Pete nance Treek Cooper are probably just gonna be able
to like slot right in comfortably, there's a lot of
value to that.

Speaker 2 (20:57):
Yeah, and even from a player development stamp, right, like
the fact that the Charge coaching staff is going to
have a lot of familiar faces there. They're going to
have all those reps they had together in Vegas. Like,
that's really important for player development when you're not figuring out,
you know, fit and you can just focus on skill development,
you can just focus on developing your game within the

(21:20):
context of the team. And I completely agree with you,
Like I I'm always rooting for these guys as individuals
because I think ultimately it's a feather in the cap
for the team, right, Like if you provide opportunities to
guys and they develop and they get contracts elsewhere, or
like even when we looked at like Darius Garland signing

(21:40):
the extension and you know, there's the opportunity if he
would have made all NBA last year that that would
have kicked to another tier. I'm not rooting for him
to miss out on that because, oh, you know, that's
going to help the Cavs financial flexibility. I'm running for
all of these guys to maximize their own individual earnings,
their own potential, and if that forces the Caws to

(22:01):
get more creative because these guys have been awesome, that's
you know what that's the job of the front office.
They can figure that out. The awesome problem to have.
I I want to see these guys do well, and
I'm really excited, like I I want these guys to
exceed my expectations, Like I want Baits to make it
so that hey, we have to actually consider you know,
later in the seasons. He's way more ahead of schedule

(22:23):
than we thought. And this is a big wing that
can provide shooting, Like if that's a problem we have
to cross, which I personally don't expect it to be
a problem this season, but if he forces the conversation
there and gets consideration, that would be great. I want
to have these problems.

Speaker 1 (22:39):
Justin brief soapbox NBA two K. Why do I not
have him Onny Baits and Craig Porters JR.

Speaker 2 (22:46):
Oh my goodness, I haven't even downloaded yet.

Speaker 1 (22:50):
It's so disappointing. I was really excited to play with
those guys, especially with like like I was gonna kind
of maybe do you know, do a little nerd remake
a few of the guys on the G League team
that aren't in the game as well, but like without
you know, kind of like come on, at least had
all the two way guys in, they're all signed. What
are we doing, Carter?

Speaker 2 (23:10):
The word on the street is that the game has
really fallen off since you and I are no longer
in the game.

Speaker 1 (23:15):
Are we are we officially out?

Speaker 2 (23:17):
I think we were out last year. We were all
I think we're only on for three years.

Speaker 1 (23:22):
No, we were in longer than that. We were in
the game for a minute. Yeah. Oh geez, yeah, I
still had my like Twitter profile picture from like seven
years ago.

Speaker 2 (23:31):
Well there you go.

Speaker 1 (23:32):
So blue Wire best best product placement we've ever had.
But pretty cool. But yeah, great, having a lot of
fun with two K this year, justin I can make
jump shots again. It's really nice.

Speaker 2 (23:46):
Oh man, I haven't even downloaded yet. And you know
I'm a sickle. I get those disgusting stats in two K,
So maybe I'm going to need to do that after
this podcast. But it's always a good time. I wanted
Baits in there. That would be a lot of fun.

Speaker 1 (24:01):
It's Dan Porter, Come on, dude. We want to have
Isaiah because he was on the roster last year.

Speaker 2 (24:07):
It's funny because obviously the focus of this season is
going to be about the calves taken that next step
to see if they can get into championship contention. But
we might legitimately have to have like charge episodes or
charge segments, charge interviews because there is so many reasons
to care about that team. It really does feel like

(24:28):
kind of a minor league feeder system. And that's that's exciting,
because that's where you want the G League to be
for these NBA teams.

Speaker 1 (24:37):
Yeah, and you look at some other franchises who have
done really well with that. The Bucks used the Herd
really well. I believe the Heat used their V League
affiliate a ton to find some of their diamonds in
the rough. And you know that's as we've said, as
the Calves empty their you know, their their coffers in
the Donovan Mitchell trade and used a lot of their
flexibility they had remaining the Ads truce in the Yang. Like,

(25:00):
as you are a good team year after year after year,
especially without draft picks to kind of replenish, you gotta
find guys on the margins. I think the Calves are
doing a really nice job, you know, turning over all
those stones to try to do that.

Speaker 2 (25:13):
I completely agree, and you know it may not be
a diamond in a rough, but we have an absolute
gem when it comes to the support we receive from
Zoom support for this podcast, and the following message comes
from Zoom. Half a million businesses connect using Zoom, a
single platform for phone, chat, workspaces, events, apps, end video.
Zoom enables real time collaboration for teams around the globe.
Zoom how the world connects.

Speaker 1 (25:34):
Carter.

Speaker 2 (25:35):
I'm going to let you kind of take the wheel
here because we had this on the rundown for last episode,
and I really want this back half of the podcast
to be focused on your topic here because I think
there's a lot of meat on the bone here and
I'll let you ask me the.

Speaker 1 (25:51):
Question, So go ahead, buddy. Yeah. So, like last episode,
back half, we kind of spent a lot of time
talking about the Calves offense, the way it was gonna work,
the tweaks. JB is going to put in how the
spacing would affect the sets they already ran. And for
this one, I really wanted to talk about the defense
because I have some big questions about this Cavaliers defense,
and I'm gonna start with the biggest one. Justin the

(26:14):
Cavaliers will be playing in their top in the top
seven of their rotation. They're going to be playing Darius Garland,
Donovan Mitchell, They're going to be playing Kris Lavert, They're
going to be playing Max stroups. They're going to be
playing George Niang like the only the only two defenders

(26:35):
that will be playing like that. I expect to be
in that top seven are the two bigs, and Evan
Mobley and Jared Allen, the two guys who are known
known for their defense. And you might say, well, you know,
Isaac o'coro is that eighth guy, but I would say
he was. He played a ton of minutes for them

(26:55):
last year. He was a really important rotation player en
route to that top defense the NBA. And my question,
Justin is with this infusion of shooting in spacing an
offensive specialization, are the Cavs still a quote defensive team.
Is that their identity still going into the year.

Speaker 2 (27:16):
I think it still needs to be kind of the
core anchor and the thing that you hang your hat on.
I think you want to improve as an offensive team.
I think you want to continue to take those defensive
stops and translate that into transition opportunities and offense on
the other end. You know, going from kind of that

(27:37):
sixteenth team in transition frequency and upping that they're like
the Cavs go from you know, seventeen eighteenth to top
ten in transition frequency off of those stops. That'd be great.
I think that that is something that's a realistic goal,
especially when you have these jump shooters that like to
pull up in transition, and hopefully you see more growth
there from Darius. But I do still think that it

(27:59):
needs to start on the defensive end, and I'm going
to push back a little bit harder because if you're
talking minute distribution, I do think that isacle Coro needs
to be that seventh over George Niang. I think isacle
Coorl needs to play more minutes than George Nieing. And
when you talk about maintaining the defensive identity of this team,

(28:21):
it's tough because obviously Max Truce is not bringing what
icicle Korl brings to the table. On the defensive end.
I think he's good positionally, he's strong, he's able to
defend multiple positions. That's something that Miami used a lot.
But he played twenty eight minutes per game last year
for Miami, and if we're assuming that that's going to
hold Steady. That's eight minutes per game more than Jeddi Osmin.

(28:45):
I think Max is a better defender than Jeddi Osmin.
If George Niang is taking eighteen minutes a game, well
you could basically replace Lamar Stevens there. And I think
he's more replacing Kevin Love. But I think on a
possession by possession basis, he's a better defender than Kevin Love.
And when you account for internal growth from the returning

(29:06):
players as well, I don't think there's any excuses. I
think this is still a team that should be a
top five defense. And even if there's a little bit
of slippage maybe because you're not playing your starters as
many minutes and there's some blowouts and you know you
have to go to cleaning the glass to find our
defensive rating in garbage time, and oh there we are
number one when it's not garbage time. Like, if those

(29:27):
type of factors are in play, I still think they
should be a top five defense.

Speaker 1 (29:32):
So I want to just continue to challenge this idea
like they started and ended most games last season, justin
with two elite rim protectors and an elite point of
attack defender, we can talk all we want about Max
Struce as a competent defender, a gritty defender, a guy

(29:54):
who works hard, an elite point of attack defender. He
is not. And I think what is interesting to me
is I agree with you in the sense that if
I'm JB. Bickerstaff and the coaching staff, I am still
hammering that we are a defensive team, that we win
with defense, and that is that is that is how

(30:15):
we that's how our bread is buttered.

Speaker 2 (30:18):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (30:18):
However, if our closing five does not in our opening
five does not include Isaaca Korro, I think it's going
to be a bit more of a balanced attack this
year where they need. I think there is going to
be some slippage against the best teams in the tensest moments.

(30:40):
When you're putting our best five against your best five,
and you're our best five against your best five, is
a lot of where your team's identity lies. And I
just don't think they're going to be able to count
on smothering teams like they did in a lot of
their games down the stretch, or to come or to
make comebacks. I think it's gonna have to be a

(31:02):
more balanced attack. So while I think as a coaching staff,
I'm still pushing defensive team, defensive team, defensive team, and
that's what I'm spending a ton of time working on
in camp and in practice over the course of the year,
and what I'm preaching. I do think their offense is
going to have to be a legitimate, you know, a

(31:24):
legitimate unit, because I do think they trade it off
a little bit in terms of the personnel they added.
Now we're going to see a lot of Max s
Druce at the four we probably are.

Speaker 2 (31:34):
He played about twenty eight percent of his minutes a
power forward for Miami, and you know, BAM's m is
a fully matured man, even though he's undersized it from
a hyph perspective, he's strong right, kind of similar to
Dwight Howard in that way. But it's funny looking at
just the wide range of positions that Max Drews defended

(31:55):
last year. He spent seventeen percent of his minutes guarding
point guards, twenty six percent on shooting guards, twenty three
percent on small forwards, twenty three percent on power forwards,
and he defended centers twelve percent of the time. Last year.
I was looking at the matchups throughout the throughout the playoffs.
Last year the Bucks series, his primary the guy he'd

(32:16):
spent the most minutes on was Grayson Allen, second was
Brook Lopez, and then Drew Holiday and Chris Middleton. Nixt
series was Josh Harden, Grimes, Derek White, and Mark is
Smart in the Boston series, like it's it is a
wide range of guys. But I do think that it's
going to be interesting to see. Cats are going to
have to defend teams more straight up. Garland's going to

(32:38):
defend point guards. Mitchell's going to need to be a
more consistent contributor on the defensive end because I think
we saw, you know, kind of high water marks and
high flashes from him defensively last year. I think it
was a lot better than Utah, but there were still
times where that effort lapsed. I think in the playoffs
his defensive impact wasn't as high as it could be.

(32:59):
So he's going to need to do a better job.
So I get where you're coming from. I think it's
it's going to be a major question. But my question
for you is what do you think the role should
be for Isaacle Coral, Like, how how much should he
be in this rotation, and like I've heard people kind

(33:21):
of almost talk about him as an afterthought, and I'm
still of the opinion that he needs to be a
priority in this rotation. And you know, just because he
may be moving to the bench, and I'd say likely
he's moving to the bench, I don't think that means
his development should be neglected, nor should his minutes.

Speaker 1 (33:42):
I mean, I think the minutes are just going to
go down by pure you know, like just getting boxed out.
You know, like it's just a lot of mouths to feed,
especially if if you know, and kind of a lot
of it does continue to go back to is Ricky
Rubio in the rotation? Is he with the team is
tied to Rome in the rotation, So it gets a
lot easier. It gets a lot easier to find him

(34:04):
minutes even as the seventh man. Uh if if you're
not playing that coup point card, because you can find
him a lot more minutes of the two while Carris
or Donovan or finding minutes at the one, you can
find him minutes at the three, like while while Darius
and Karris are at the one and the two like

(34:24):
there it's a lot easier to find lineup combinations that
have room for Isaac, and I do think a lot
of it is going to be kind of on Isaac
because if he's making threes at a decent clip, at
a decent volume, it's going to be hard for JB
to take him off the floor because he just provides.

(34:48):
You know, you look at your role players and typically
you either want them to plug in seamlessly and just
to let you do what you were doing, but with
different players kind of rotating in, or you want them
to bring a skill that you do not have Otherwise.
I think Isaac clearly falls in the ladder camp there

(35:09):
in the sense that they just don't have anyone at
the point of attack like him, especially for small guards
that he that he can really hound. So I think
he's going to have plenty of opportunities. But on nights
where he's not being guarded, I just do think there's
going to be times where Jab goes man, Kris is
just getting all those minutes, or or hey, we're playing

(35:32):
George at the three and George, George is hitting his shots,
he's moving, well, we want to be a little bigger.
That's one thing George nian gives you if you want
to play at him at the three is you know,
he is a slightly undersized four, but he's got really
good size for the three. And you know, if you
want to replicate like some of the Lowry at the

(35:52):
three or Dean at the three stuff, I think he
can do that a little bit on defense just by
being being big enough and you know, moving some bodies
out of the way. So, like, I think it's just
going to be there are going to be more games
where Isaac is not a factor. I think on his

(36:12):
best games he'll play as much as he did last year,
but there will be times with a game plan or
the opponent or Isaac's own play just kind of push
him out. Uh, and he gets that early shift and
it doesn't go well and jab goes, mmmm, it's not
your night, buddy. So like I just think I would
like to see him deployed as that specialist, as the oh,

(36:36):
this guy's cooking us Isaac goh shut his water off
and and uh and see how and then also in
the early season, just see how he pairs with his
extra shooting, because I do think he has had such
a burden often being relied to be the second or
third best shooter. On the floor and in a lot

(36:58):
of these lineup configurations, and I'm excited to see what
he looks like as the fourth best shooter on the
floor and what that does for him in terms of
his space to cut and be a finisher, where I
thought he grew a lot in that area last year.

Speaker 2 (37:14):
I agree. I think if you are correct, where he's
going to get pushed out. You know, there's just not
an ability to make it work offensively with him on
the court.

Speaker 1 (37:25):
I think that's a problem. Hold on, let me okay.
I want to challenge that that framing. There will be
nights where the other players that play in his position
group are just more helpful. It's not that the offense
won't be able to hang. It's that, hey, Carris is
Karris is cooking and we need that extra playmaking, or hey,

(37:48):
they are selling out on Darius and Donion Ball. We
need a space er out there. I don't think it'll
be Isaac is failing all just because there will be
This team is now talented enough that there will be
nights where role players play twelve minutes and it's not
because they messed up. I think that's important.

Speaker 2 (38:06):
For us to start prepping our brains for I think
you're right, Like, if you are setting the floor, like
I would say, he needs to be playing fifteen sixteen
minutes a night and you're in that range of sixteen
to you know, twenty six minutes based on matchup base,
how you're performing because like you said, we brought in
players that address that brings skill sets that we didn't

(38:29):
have in the past. That allows the Cavs to play
in different ways where they didn't really have that option
in the past. But Isaac also brings something that you
absolutely need to have and if you're having trouble, you know,
keeping him on the court, that's that's the skill set
you need to address, right, Like you might have to
go out in that instance and bring in someone that

(38:51):
brings that to the table, because if you don't have
that kind of point of attack defender in the playoffs,
you're going to have some issues. Now. I think the
one thing that kind of goes in the cast favor
that doesn't get talked about enough is when it comes
to guards in the Eastern Conference, there's not a lot
that are going to kill you, Like, there's not a
lot of premier point of attack going to really hurt you. Guards,

(39:15):
like even Jalen Brunson, who had a good series against
the Cass We've talked about it before. He was very
inefficient throughout that series, and I think, you know, you
could have handled that better in terms of how you
defended him and not jeopardize the defense in the same ways.
But I don't think he's going to win you a
series necessarily. Tyrese Halliburn probably isn't in that kind of

(39:37):
a situation. I'm not worried about Derek White. I'm not
worried about Drew Holiday cooking us for forty right, Tyrese
Maxi is a nice player, but I don't think he's
that kind of you.

Speaker 1 (39:47):
Dare tempt those gods. That man has killed us.

Speaker 2 (39:51):
He has killed us, So I'm worried about it, but
I don't think. I don't think he's going to win
a playoff series single handedly, as what I'm trying to say.
But even so, like you need to have that guy
that can sub into the rotation. You need to find
ways to make Icicle Coral work offensively, because if you
have an injury to Max Struz, he's been a very

(40:11):
durable player. But what the hell are you going to
do are we going to sit here and say, well,
you know, we had an injury to Srus and you
know the same problems came up with the KORL. No,
you have to invest time throughout the regular season in
making it work with Isaacle Corrol, in expanding how you're
using him, And obviously some of that comes down to him.
Some of that also has to come down to the

(40:32):
guys on the court finding him and trusting him and
saying we're making a conscious investment. Some comes down to
the coaching staff to get him more opportunities in more
creative ways. But I do think that he needs to
be a staple in the rotation because he brings a
skill set that is essential to playoff success, and that
has to be in the back of our minds throughout

(40:52):
the season that we are invested in trying to develop
skill sets that we're going to be able to utilize
the playoffs. And there's been a lot of a choral
discussion recently. Dunked on Sam Vessini on Game Theory talked
about it, you know, him being possibly extension eligible, and

(41:14):
I thought those were good nuanced conversations on those podcasts,
and they're honestly there they're a lot higher on him
than even a lot of the cast fans that we
talked to of being a guy that they could see
kind of extending it and signing to that kind of
Jared Vanderbilt extension if that is available. But you know,
like that's I just think that he's a valuable player

(41:36):
and he's someone that the team should be invested in.
And like when it comes to minutes, it gets weird
because when we talk right now, we.

Speaker 1 (41:43):
Are some game. Baby.

Speaker 2 (41:45):
It's not though, because when we talk now, it's fully
healthy rosters. We're not factoring in. Okay, some nights you
play a little more, some nights you don't. Like. As
much as we brought in talent, we didn't bring in
guys that are so talented that Isaac o Corol can't
go out there and take their minutes if he's playing well,
like if he improved, of course, not that he's not

(42:06):
going to be able to do it. If I'm looking
at the Cavs last year, Carter, guys that played at
least forty games for them last season, here's their minutes
per game. Obviously, Donovan, Darius Mobile and Allen I'm excluding them,
but Jeti played twenty, Coral played twenty two, Karris played thirty,
Dean played twenty, Kevin Love played twenty, and Lamar played eighteen.

(42:28):
That's over forty games. That's over half the season. Right,
So if I'm taking those Jetti twenty in, I'm moving
that up to twenty eight. I can still keep Oco
at twenty two in my opinion, Like, I think that
has to be the bare minimum, and I think investing
in him and trying to get more meat off of
that bone has to be a priority for the team.

(42:48):
I think it's really really damn important.

Speaker 1 (42:51):
I have a question for you, then, Okay, go ahead.
One of the reasons those guys all played that those
level of minutes is our boy JB or Steph really
preferred an eight man rotation when the game was close,
just due to where the roster was. The easiest road
to getting a guy like Isaac twenty plus minutes is

(43:13):
not to play a ninth guy like a Dean Wade
or a fine With or a tie. Jerome, would you
run an eight man rotation in the regular.

Speaker 2 (43:20):
Season some nights, like I think some nights you're going
to go deeper. Some nights, you know, if we're playing Milwaukee,
I'm going eight. I want I want the team to
be ready to play that rotation against top competition, and
that has to come with the balance of in other matchups,

(43:40):
we're going to go a little deeper strategically, We're going
to give guys other looks. Let's say you know Kris
Misses some time because he does get banged up every
now and then you go a little deeper. You have
Dean Wade, maybe you even call up Baits later in
the season because you just want to give him some
looks within the context of the team, right like there's
or that's a tie Jerome game where he's playing. I

(44:03):
think you want to have your nine to ten guy
for certain matchups where they're part of the rotation and
they're being factored in, not just hey, we're up by
a lot, so we're giving you a look. I think
on those nights you want to go a little deeper
and against the top competition, you're going that way, Like
you're going to need to play your guys a lot
of minutes because most stars, like as much as people

(44:25):
look at like Darius and Donovan playing like thirty five
minutes of a game, that's a lot less than a
lot of other stars in the league, and you're at
a competitive disadvantage if you're playing your starters five to
six minutes fewer in that game than the other team stars.

Speaker 1 (44:40):
Yeah for sure. But yeah, that's where I think depth
and fit well, you know, hopefully carry the day. I'm
not sure I'm ready to say an eight man rotation.
I really want to make sure this team is arrested
and fresh for the playoffs, and so if you are
playing eight, I want our stars to be really well
balanced among I want those minutes to actually be pretty

(45:02):
evenly distributed among those eight. But I also like, as
much as you know you want to make sure a
guy like Isaac gets reps, I want to make sure
Dean gets reps. Like like Dean is in my opening
night rotation. If he's healthy, he's at the very end.
He's at the very end of it. He's my ninth man.
But I want to see, like whether whether he can

(45:25):
kind of bounce back after the injury last season, capitalizing
some of that momentum he was really developing where remember
that first month justin where the where the jumper was
looking reworked and he was Williams. Yeah, he was playing
like Grant Williams level basketball he was doing. He was
really awesome for us. So you know, uh, I feel

(45:48):
like it's gonna I just feel like there is probably
one or two players in this Cavs roster that are
you know, if while they're healthy, obviously because to your point,
people always get hurt, it's gonna be so weird now
all of a sudden seeing Jetty playing thirty minutes in
like January, it's going to be so different not having
that person to turn to. But while this.

Speaker 2 (46:08):
Team is healthy, it's going to be weird, like you know,
prolonged stretches because you know, once every four games sometimes
he won't play, but you know a prolonged stretch of
Jenny not playing will be different.

Speaker 1 (46:19):
Yes, So like I think, you know, while this team
is healthy, there are going to be guys who are like, man,
I need more run than this to prove myself. And
like that's just that's you know, I said it last
year and I'll say that every year this team keeps
getting better. Is like that is the tax of being
a good team is sometimes you're a good player that
just isn't getting a lot of run.

Speaker 2 (46:41):
Yeah, I guess my thing is still like even if
you are going deeper, like I really do feel like
Isaac needs to be prioritized because I just think that's
a skill set you're going to need one way or another,
and developing it in house is going to be cheaper
and easier than going out and acquiring it.

Speaker 1 (47:00):
Justin. I hear that, and I agree with that, but
I don't I think you're slightly under rating like the
idea of like, hey George, I know we we paid
you a good chunk of our of our of our
off season. We told you how much we were, how
excited we were for you.

Speaker 2 (47:19):
I don't think only I don't think he cuts it
like you're only playing them all to night.

Speaker 1 (47:25):
Yeah, whatever, it is like justin when the game is close,
minutes pare down, like on the nights where Darius, Donnie, Evan,
and Jared are all playing thirty six, thirty seven, thirty
eight minutes, because that's what that's what great players do.
And you're in a close game, you're in a dog fight.
Maybe you didn't even think you were going to be
it was against like the Magic or something. You thought

(47:45):
you might be able to build a lead, but you didn't.
And now it's the fourth quarter and George is only
played eleven minutes and you don't want you to You've
committed to your rotation, like you got it. I feel
like you got to remember this is the zero sum
game that I'm talking about, is that at some point
you're going to you got to choose who you're going

(48:06):
to bomb out, because whoever it is is going to
be bummed out in those moments. And like, uh so,
Like I just think that's where that's where the meritocracy
of who's playing the best, and the the evaluation of
the prospects and the team and how you think they
need to work in the playoffs, that's where they're going

(48:28):
to kind of mesh. The dream is that the players
you think you need in the postseason and the players
that are playing the best are the same. Yeah, it
gets not.

Speaker 2 (48:39):
Doesn't happen unless in those other games, Like I get that,
you're going to get into those crunches, in those kind
of premier matchups where now all the stars are going
to be playing because there's a policy in place. But
you're only going to be comfortable with Isaac in those
minutes if you make more of the other minutes out
there and I just think there's a missed opportunity. And

(49:00):
some of this comes down to him being in that
starting lineup, right, Like you said, him being the third
best shooter in a lineup, him being forced to be
in the corner in those starting lineups. I think that
made things tougher for him. But even still, I think
the usage was too low. I looked it up. For
there's two hundred and twenty two players that played at

(49:20):
least twenty minutes per game. Only nine had a lower
usage rate than ocoro As, Nick Batoomb, Alex Caruso, which
surprised the hell out of me. Cavon Looney, Mitch Robinson,
Conjar Dean Wade, shout out Dean, Reggie Bullock, and PJ. Tucker.
And for players that had at least fifteen hundred touches
last year, what's that fifteen hundred minutes? Yeah, that's right.

(49:44):
Isaac had the fewest touches in those minutes. And I
looked it up, Carter, because you know, one of the
things you hear is you know he's getting touches and
he's turning down shots. If you look at field goal
percent or field goal attempts per touch, Isaac was actually
third on the team behind Donovan Mitchell and Jeddi Osman.
He took a shot on twenty four percent of his possessions,

(50:08):
and you know sixteen percent percent of those possessions were
assists in defensive rebounds. Right, So he's someone that's out there,
you know when he gets those shots, he's taken the shots.
He's being aggressive, and I think it's on the guards.
I think it's on the coaching staff to get him
more of those touches in those instances because he is
someone that's assertive. And I think you know, you look

(50:29):
at it and like Lamar Stevens average more touches permitted
when he's out there on the court last year, I
wonder why, justin it's not because he's taking more attempts
of when he's out there per touch, right, like it's lower.
But I do think it was a product. Like he
averaged one point touches per minuted Isaac was zero point nine,

(50:52):
So not a massive difference, but you know, over a
twenty minute game, that's a decent number of touches. I
think my theory here Carter is that was a product
of him playing with the second unit when there was
only one big on the floor where his slashing ability,
his ability to get open was more clear. And when
you look at Lamar, like part of the reason Isaac

(51:13):
moved in the starting lineup was because that starting lineup
struggled and Lamar struggled. When he was a starter, he
had a true shooting percentage of forty nine. When he
was a reserve, it was fifty six. Isaac didn't have
that problem. He had a true shooting percentage of sixty
two when he was a starter, and it got better
every single month. He was up to sixty nine percent
before he eventually got hurt, you know, playing through it

(51:34):
in March, who came down to sixty three and then
obviously missed April. But you know, like Isaac played well
with that starting lineup, and I think there's going to
be more opportunities with him in the second unit, and
I think those opportunities can't be wasted. We have to
be more creative in getting him touches and exploring what
we have with Okoro. And this gets me back to

(51:55):
kind of the big question, which is, you know, listening
to those podcasts discussing whether or not you know the
Cats may go out and extend Isaac Okrel. Would you
be comfortable giving him an extension similar to the Jared
Vanderbilt one which was reported four forty eight, so about
you know, the mid level exception. Would you be comfortable
with that kind of deal at this point?

Speaker 1 (52:16):
At this point, yeah, of course. I mean, but again
I kind of go back to the larger cat machinations here.
I'm not letting matching salary walk out the door. I'm
not letting young prospects walk out the door. I think
I think I am objectively lower than you want. With
Isaac on the offensive end, I think you know, his

(52:39):
lack of involvement in the offense is I will say
I was mostly I was kind of you know how,
you know, how you do when you're arguing with someone.
I was thinking of counter as while you were kind
of making some of these points. I think your best
point was that Lamara got to play with the second unit.
Where you're going to have when you're playing with bench units,

(52:59):
you're going to have or player play a short circuit
and say I got this. You know, I do think
there is a personality component there that Lamar is comfortable
asking for the ball and was at comfortable asking for
the ball and attacking. I wasn't always thrilled with how
it went, but he was comfortable doing that. I think,

(53:20):
you know, we always talked about their roles in college
where Lamar was the best play best offensive player on
a Penn State team, and Isaac was kind of who
he was who he is now when he was at
Auburn in terms of like being a defensive specialist that
was not the lead on ball creator. So I do
think like I but like there there is some truth

(53:41):
to I want to see how Isaac operates when they
are down, uh to to their third or fourth ball handlers,
and you know that that third or fourth ball handler
gets trapped in Isaac's the release valve, and how does
how does he attack with a better space floor Again,
I really want to see if you if you if

(54:03):
you're talking about the two you know, the biggest names
edition of Niang and Strus, I want to see him
play a lot of minutes with those guys when they're
both on the floor. I kind of want to see
Isaac out there as much as we can, just kind of.

Speaker 2 (54:18):
One guard, one big and Isaac with you know, LeVert
Struce Niang, Like two of those three those are lineup
some really interesting all three and the Cavs can play
six guys.

Speaker 1 (54:30):
I think that would be a really revolutionary tactic.

Speaker 2 (54:33):
You know what, the rest miss a lot of things
these days, especially you know, if they're they're learning from FIVA,
you might be able to sneak another guy out there
and get a power play going absolutely buddy.

Speaker 1 (54:42):
So you know, I think I am excited to see
kind of what he does this year at UH And
but yeah, a Vanda level extension I think is pretty appropriate,
especially given that he you know, he's a great culture
guy for you, well liked in the locker again, brings
this skill you don't have otherwise. And like again, I'm

(55:04):
just not I don't want this team to be in
the business to letting assets walk out the door. And
even if his long term future doesn't end up in Cleveland,
I think that this season's going to be a big
make or break on kind of what that means for him.
But again, I just I feel like this is where
we have to do this the spiel where like whatever numbers,

(55:28):
if they do end up, you know, coming to terms
with him, whatever the number is, it's gonna surprise you.
And that's the.

Speaker 2 (55:36):
Way I was actually going to be. They were talking
like fifteen a year, and like it's you.

Speaker 1 (55:41):
Know, well, it's no surprise that the cap Space podcast
is the one actually being pretty reasonable about like where
these role player numbers are going. You have to remember, guys,
Max contracts are sixty million dollars a year now, and
like so when you consider that, fifteen may sound shocking,
but or twelve or you know whatever, Yeah, might sound shocking,

(56:03):
but it really just isn't.

Speaker 2 (56:04):
And that's where Vassini was at too. It was like
around the mid level, because you have to remember, like
the mid level is going to rise to the point where,
like midway through Max Struce's deal, it's that's going to
be considered kind of that mid level amount, right, So
to me, I feel like I did, and maybe some
of this is muscle memory. I feel like I did

(56:25):
in the fall of twenty fourteen when I was saying
signed trist into an extension. You know, like he brings
a valuable skill set on defense. You're going to need
this in the playoffs. Lock him up now.

Speaker 1 (56:35):
Risca also just won you a title.

Speaker 2 (56:37):
No, he hadn't at that point. The Tristan extension came
after the year. It was extent. It came after the
twenty fifteen finals.

Speaker 1 (56:47):
You're right, You're right, You're right.

Speaker 2 (56:48):
Sorry, Yeah, so you know, he obviously proved himself in
that playoff round. It was very valuable then, but at
the time it was you know, Tristan only you can't
even dunk with one hand? Why are we going to
pay him? And you know, they end up up extending
Veriziau instead. The Cavs obviously are going to have more
information than us on this too, right, Like they're going
to know how Isaac looked in summer workouts, They're going

(57:09):
to look at how we looked in training camp, They're
going to look at how he looks in preseason, right,
much much more information, and Isaac might not want to
do that, right Like, this goes back to us rooting
for players to get the best for themselves, right Like,
if he feels, hey, I've put this all together, I'm
taking a leap, I'm twenty two years old, same ages
mobile here, Like, I think that I can do more

(57:32):
and I can get up to like that eighteen range even, right,
I all mean, beat on yourself, but I think if
you can find a valuable deal, lock them in here,
I would be thrilled by that because I think that
he's someone that's worth investing in. I think it's a
skill set that's worth worth investing in. And like I said,
when you look at how low the touches were, when

(57:54):
you look at how low the usage were was, there
are guys that are less talented than him on teams
that are as good as the Cavs, that got more touches,
that got more on ball reps, that got more looks.
And I think that you know, as we you know,
have him come in the second unit, as you go
through blowouts, as you have injuries, all of those opportunities

(58:16):
need to be taken advantage of to develop the talent
that we have and he needs. He can't get for
gotten in that mix. He can't get forgne in that shuffle.
If you look at it as okay, like we just
have our starting five, that's not the way it plays out.
Guys get much more missed than that throughout the flow
of a season. And if we don't develop that in
the regular season, it's going to cost us in the playoffs,

(58:37):
because this is a skill set that you need in
the postseason.

Speaker 1 (58:41):
Absolutely, buddy, I'm I'm excited. I'm excited to see him
take the opportunity. And you know, the one thing I'll
continue to say that like I just don't want to
get lost, And this is like Isaac has to grab
the opportunities that are in front of him. You can't.
And I think same thing goes for a guy like Dean,
who you know, has less pedigree, you know, less less

(59:05):
like long term investment for the franchise, you know, at
least over the last couple of years. But like a Dean,
if you get if you know, uh, if Jarrett get
gets banged up or Mobily gets banged up and you
become a spot starter, you got to you gotta earn
your keep, you know, you got to show it and uh,
Like the nice thing is with this team is they

(59:28):
are now at the point with their depth that I
don't think, ye they're They're no longer relying on all
of these guys who are like maybe they'll hit, maybe
they won't, Like they don't need a hit rate because
their talent level is high enough at the top and
their depth at that you know, five to ten is

(59:50):
good enough that you go like, okay, yeah, as long
as we get like remember in the postseason. Last year,
we're like, man, if we can just get seven guys
JB can count on in the postseason, then we're we're geeked.
And you know, we we didn't get there. We didn't
get to seven, and I really want to and I

(01:00:11):
really am quite confident that we have that number now.
And that means that if of the I think this
team has no less than ten guys that if they
play in the regular season, I'm feeling pretty good about it,
you know, and really maybe even more. And so I

(01:00:32):
only need to that point of looking towards the postseason,
looking towards uh, you know, this team kind of reaching
their ceiling. I only need eight of those ten or
eleven to to to be able to hold up. So like,
I feel like at that point, you're kind of playing
the numbers game. Obviously, the Cabs front office and coaching

(01:00:53):
staff isn't going to look at it that way. They're
not They're not pulling slots at a at a casino
in Vegas. But like, I think gets close enough that like,
like you have a really good shot to find your
your eight or nine guys you can go to war
with in any given playoff series.

Speaker 2 (01:01:09):
Yeah, I completely agree there is going to be a
healthy competition for minutes, like these guys are going to
have to seize that opportunity. Like that's the number. It's
applicable for Isaac. But one of the number one things
you learn playing basketball, when you're playing off ball is
like movement and looking like you want the ball is
the best way to get the attention of a playmaker,

(01:01:30):
right Like, if you're just kind of standing there and
you don't look like you want the ball, you're not
going to get the ball. So Isaac's gonna need to
go out there and make the most of those opportunities.
And if these guys don't make the most of those opportunities,
that's going to be a conversation we'll need to have
at the deadline because those are skill sets that are needed.
And like I said, the easiest way to go about
it is internally. I'm I'm getting excited to see this.

(01:01:53):
I'm getting excited to see how it looks. I can't
wait for you know, the camp buzz of who's looking good,
who's standing out, all that stuff. It's going to be
a lot of fun.

Speaker 1 (01:02:01):
Looking forward to media, us to the land.

Speaker 2 (01:02:05):
Looking forward to media day, we might have a little
surprise for listeners of the podcast there, so excited for
that as well. Big thanks to everyone that tuned in
live on YouTube. We appreciate you guys tuning in. Make
sure you like and subscribe click notification bell so you
know when we're going live. You're listening via podcast and
you want to support us, leave us a rating the review,
subscribe unsubscribed, resubscribe and help cook those books. You want

(01:02:26):
to be part of the Chase doown's exclusive discord chats
and a screenshot of their view to Chase Down pod
at gmail dot com. However you choose to support us,
we really do appreciate it. Make sure you guys are
staying safe out there. Until next time, Yo cats, The

(01:03:01):
Satan SA