Leveling Up with Seth Partnow

Justin and Carter are joined by Seth Partnow of The Athletic to discuss his player tiers, what the Cavs can do individually to take the next step, and what would be a successful season for the team next year. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This crowd rises to its being what Carl slamming it
out art, left wing free ball perfect, Darlin.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
Pop there, Helift block the shot at the rim?

Speaker 1 (00:12):
How with the left head and a fowl?

Speaker 3 (00:16):
Welcome to the Chase Doown Podcast, part of the Cavs
Maybia Family. I'm your host, Justin Rowan. The Chase Doown
is presented by Fubo TV. Watch over a hundred channels
of live sports and TV for half the cost of cable.
There's no contract, no commitment. Try for free at FuboTV
dot com. We are not continuing our team previous you
know what, I've had enough of talking about other teams.
It's time for us to do some deep dive calves.

(00:36):
Let's get nitty gritty and joining me today is my
co host Carter Rodriguez. Carter, how you doing, Buddy?

Speaker 1 (00:41):
I'm doing well, Buddy. I I've also been yearning to
get some takes off to focus back on our boys
after you know, I mean, how how much do our
listeners want to hear about the Milwaukee Bucks? You know,
in the end, they're they're ready. You know, it's a
nice respite, but I'm ready to deep dive with a
very very esteemed and intelligent guest. We do have it.

(01:03):
How stupid we are?

Speaker 3 (01:04):
Yeah, we have an esteemed and intelligent guest that raises
hand when you asked, who wants to talk about the
Milwaukee Bucks. Welcome back to the podcast from the Athletic
Seth Part Now, Seth, how you doing, Buddy? I got
two questions for you. The first important one is how
you doing?

Speaker 2 (01:18):
I'm doing great? Thanks guy, Thanks for having me. It's
I think I feel like I'm on the back half
of a podcast world tour. Coming off the topic we're going.

Speaker 3 (01:27):
To talk about, which leads me to my second question,
how dare you.

Speaker 1 (01:32):
Just a general? How dare you? Who do you think
you are?

Speaker 3 (01:37):
And what gives you the right for our listeners we
should clarify. So set us a great job of putting
together his player tiers. I actually love it as a concept.
I've been ranting for years about how I hate rankings.
I love player tiers, and I think your methodology.

Speaker 1 (01:53):
Is really good.

Speaker 3 (01:55):
When we're in this season where people are just putting
out rankings for content, putting them out for engagement, we
do our team previous because we don't you know, we
we don't. We don't take part in such behaviors. We
we try to keep it somewhat productive this time of year,
but it's really that dead time and a great time.

Speaker 1 (02:13):
To do the player tires.

Speaker 3 (02:14):
So for the listeners that don't know, you obviously put
out your player tiers at the athletic and I'm sure
you just get nothing but reasonable responses when when people
read where their teams are at right.

Speaker 2 (02:28):
I think the real hint I've gotten about the degradation
of Twitter or x or whatever. I'm gonna it's Twitter,
Mama call him Twitter. I'm gonna call them Twitter. Is
how little vitriol I've got this year compared to the
compared to past years.

Speaker 1 (02:45):
Seth, you should join our discord. People are not thrilled
with you.

Speaker 2 (02:51):
Oh well, is it what a run a Knicks discord
or a Pelicans to Oh no, wait, it's it's it's
thirty thirty fan bases. Generally, there are are are are
displeased with me for one reason or another every time
I do.

Speaker 3 (03:08):
This, and honestly, like looking at it, I think you
did a pretty fair job across the board. There's only
the one kind of complaint that I had in We'll
get into that, but I wanted to have you on
and kind of use this players tiers to just as
an excuse really to have a conversation about what the
players on the Cavs can do to elevate themselves in

(03:29):
your eyes as well as the team, because to me,
that's more interesting because you know, ranking where guys finished
in terms of overall impact for last season or how
we project like, it's nice to do, but we really
don't know, right because growth isn't linear.

Speaker 1 (03:44):
We've seen guys.

Speaker 3 (03:46):
Just completely change their perception in one direction or the
other from year to year. And sometimes that's old players,
sometimes that's young players, right, Like you're not always trending
in the same direction. But before we get into kind
of where you had the cas players and what they
can do to elevate themselves, I want to kind of
start off by assessing where exactly we finished with the

(04:08):
playoffs last year. And obviously the Caves were a very
good regular season team last year and came up very
well short in the playoffs. And I want to get
your take on when evaluating where the Cavs came up
short and how they came up short, what do you
feel was the largest contributing factor was it, you know,
the personnel around the core. Was it execution of the

(04:30):
team itself or something schematic that you noticed with JB.
Bickerstaff and the rest of the coaching staff.

Speaker 2 (04:37):
Without this being a defense or indictment of the coaching
staff or anything like that. If you can't put a
single cogent five man unit on the floor in the playoffs,
unless you have, you know, a top three, five seven
guy who can paper over some of those cracks, you're
kind of done. And this was this was a concern

(05:01):
for the Cavs the entirety of last year, that the
small forward position, the fact that you have to play
you know, if you're going to have your best players
in the floor, you got to play two small guards
and two bigs and with really almost a blank spot
in between them. Everything else kind of doesn't matter once

(05:21):
you come up against competent, playoff level opposition. I think
that's the how it played out. Okay, you're not happy
with how the series went for Jared Allen, or for
for Darius Garland or or or what have you, but really.

Speaker 3 (05:35):
Everyone everyone is the correct answer.

Speaker 2 (05:38):
Yeah, but those are But those are I mean, those
are kind of small dial things. The big dial things
is is it's you know, it's the the expression that
the football code. It's not exitly the nose, it's Jimmy's
and Joe's. And the playoffs are very much a weaklink game.
Teams are so focused on, Oh that's the weakness, We're
going there every time. And I don't know, Okay, you

(06:00):
might or might not have liked the moves the coaching
staff made. What were what were the better ones? You know,
it's you're you're sort of they were in this weird
sort of catch twenty two in whatever whatever button bigger
staff was going to press was going to be wrong.
And so the the kind of the road not traveled
always looks better, even though that that road is pretty

(06:22):
you know, musty too, just because of the options they
had or didn't have on the roster.

Speaker 1 (06:29):
I mean, the reality is they did push most of
the buttons. By the end, the buttons just didn't really
bear fruit, you know, like I mean, there were certainly,
I think there were some schematic things, some rotation things
that you could quibble with, you know, keeping Ricky Rubio
in the rotation when as clear as just he wasn't
going to be there. I get it. There's there's things
to pick at and gripe at. But like you know,
we kind of thought that Danny Green thing was going

(06:50):
to be a breaking glass in case of emergency, and
they had to break that glass pretty quick and it
was like it just didn't bear fruit. Like So something
that has I, you know, I'm interested in your perspective
is someone who you know has worked in the league
and you know, covers the wider league. I feel like
in the past it used to be just get top
end talent and everything will figure itself out. And from

(07:11):
my perspective, it kind of seems like not having non
NBA players kind of is the more important thing right
now in terms of having making sure you're not playing
anyone who can't hang on the floor. Do you think
that is Like why do you think that is that? Like,

(07:32):
you know, you look at the Lakers. They went from
playing a lot of guys who were like barely NBA
players anymore, just add helpful bodies and then all of
a sudden they take off. Like how much do you
think that factors into team building these days?

Speaker 2 (07:45):
I think it's it's extremely important, especially looking towards the postseason.
There are teams that have gotten to a certain point
just by having no bad players. But you still need
the top end talents. But you need both. You need
to have be able to, as you say, not have
sub rotation players on the floor as much as possible,

(08:05):
because again, in the playoffs, this is this is you know,
the eighty two and sixteen thing gets gets played out
a little bit, but only a little bit because teams
have time to prepare and they can watch tape and
they know, okay, well this player is vulnerable to this thing.
So anytime they deploy him, we're just doing that, and

(08:27):
we're gonna do it again. And then if they double
team were countering, and then if then and so you're
just always at a disadvantage if you sort of have
this this bright sign saying attack here, and whether that's
a guy you don't have to guard on offense when
you're on offense, or an obvious week point. Defensively, teams
just are ruthless in a way that they aren't necessarily

(08:52):
in the playoffs. Certainly, game to game you might find
something and keep going at it, but you haven't you
don't have the prep time to sort of cycle through. Okay,
these are the ten things we're going to try to
get at We're gonna see which one we like the
we like the look of as we're going after it,
and then we're gonna do that until they until they
just change something or stop it. Yeah, and you know

(09:15):
you have again there's there's to talked about it up front.
There's sort of three obvious weaknesses of this CALVS roster,
and that's the two small guards, the two bigs, and
no small forward.

Speaker 3 (09:28):
Yeah, and we are not the blame the Coach podcast. Like,
I find it's so much more interesting to talk about
individual player performance and not acting like every single player
on the team, even though we're big fans of them,
that they can do no wrong right, Like, I think
it's so much more interesting to highlight areas where they
can improve and areas where they've come up short, because

(09:48):
if they close that gap and they improve, that's something
that should be celebrated. And if you're just acting like
they were all already doing everything right, you're not going
to get to the truth. And I feel like looking
at it with the Calve, it's funny because they had
a decent amount considering the personnel they had, they had
a decent amount of ball movement within their offense. You

(10:09):
look for the regular season, they were number two in
the league in terms of frequency of points off of cuts.

Speaker 1 (10:15):
That continued in.

Speaker 3 (10:15):
The playoffs they were number one in points per possession
off of cuts. Their points per possession in the playoffs
was still top five. Inefficiency, their isolation. Looking back at it,
and I put myself through rewatching this series, Carter I
said I was going to do it.

Speaker 1 (10:31):
I have done it.

Speaker 3 (10:33):
Thinking back on it, I know I'm very aware of this,
but I thinking back, I was like, you know what,
it's so often kind of broke down into isolation and
whatnot and Don Mitchell, you know, not making those ISO shots.
And yeah, the efficiency of both he and Garland went
down in those scenarios, but they're not a high ISO team.
In the regular season it was only six and a

(10:54):
half percent and in the playoffs it was five point
seven percent. But what really happened was their efficiency both
for pick and roll ball handlers and pick and roll
roll men went down the tubes because they've been generating movement,
usually with four of the five guys out there right
like they're running horns with the two guards and one
of the bigs. They're trying to generate movement there, and

(11:16):
when you get to the playoffs where the other team
is just focused on taking away that action, taking away
all your effectiveness in the pick and roll, your bread
and butter is now gone. Do you think the changes
that the Cows made in terms of personnel, adding Max Strews,
adding George Niang a larger guard in ty Jerome, do

(11:36):
you think those type of moves can make a difference
and make it harder for the Core for teams to
take away what the Core does best or do you
feel like it's a half measure that it's still kind
of to be seen whether or not it can all
kind of click together as a five man unit.

Speaker 2 (11:56):
So I think those are especially in Yang and Strus,
it's very sensible moves. Those are players who can at
least survive defensively and have to be guarded on the perimeter.
I think that you know, n Yang is a probably
a better shooter, Struce probably has a little more movement
off the dribble, and it is a better defender. So

(12:19):
in terms of just having kind of a a playable
guy there, and I've you know, Isaaca Korro is someone
who I've kind of I think has potential at times.
I don't know if it's on a team where he
has to play the three alongside two non shooting bigs,

(12:40):
so just but but I do think that that is
an improvement there. I don't know if it does enough
to sort of countermand some of the other the other issues,
but I think that is a definitely a step change improvement.
I think that do they win the series against the
Knicks if they're starting three? Is Max Drews. I'm not

(13:02):
going to go so far and say yes, but I
think it's a I.

Speaker 3 (13:06):
Will I saw what Max Drews did against the next
and I'm going to just ignore Jimmy Butler and Bam
in that equation.

Speaker 1 (13:12):
It was all Max strus Well.

Speaker 2 (13:14):
But I mean, is Max Drew's gonna going to keep
the Knicks from getting every offensive rebound.

Speaker 1 (13:22):
Best defense in the postseason? Even with it seth.

Speaker 3 (13:27):
The Cavs offense was so abysmal in that series that,
you know, giving the next second chance opportunities like that
really came through. And one of the smartest observations that
Carter made, and I hate to admit it, but one
of the things he said after that series was I
feel like Jalen Brunson is going to have a better
series next round against Miami, and it's not going to
be talked about the same way because you look what

(13:48):
he did against the Caves twenty four points, five assists
on a fifty three true shooting percentage, basically kind of
the same production that we got out of Garland, even
though Garland was more efficient in that series. But because
he kind of hit those big shots and the Cavs
were so kind of a nemic on the offensive end,
every one of those second chance opportunities and buckets felt

(14:10):
so big. It felt significant versus against Miami. You know,
he's scoring thirty two points per game on high efficiency,
but it just kind of feels like a drop in
the bucket.

Speaker 1 (14:20):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (14:22):
I think the rebounding is a concern. I think the
options that the power ford behind Evan Mobley are probably
one of my biggest concerns with the roster. But I
think it was much much more about the offense than
the second chance opportunities.

Speaker 2 (14:36):
Yeah, well, it's it is a problem insofar as that's
something that that is if you are playing too bigs,
that's something that is supposed to be a strength I agree,
and that turning into a almost is it going too
far to say a series losing weakness.

Speaker 1 (14:56):
I would say it's going too far because their defensive
numbers were still so good, but he was embarrassing. I
think we can all agree that it didn't feel good.

Speaker 2 (15:07):
I mean, yeah, okay, maybe that even if series loss,
but it was a uh detrimental. There are chances in
that series and if you're playing two big that's not
supposed to happen.

Speaker 3 (15:18):
It's just something that they got to get better at,
right Like, That's that's the main thing. And some some
of the reporting around the team too. You hear mention of,
you know, putting Jared Allen in such a disadvantage stageous
position by having him come so far beyond the three
point line to blitz Jalen brunts and he's not a
rebounding position, tiring him out, you know, kind of getting
away from core defensive principles gets mentioned. But at the

(15:40):
end of the day, those guys need to get stronger
and they need to get better at it, and everyone
else around needs to do better, right like, because Josh
Hart playing shooting guard was getting a lot of kind
of those backbreaking reoffensive rebounds, and that's a situation where
Donnovan Mitchell needs to be better in those spots as well.

Speaker 2 (15:59):
So here's and I know we're going to start to
hit on some players, and this is maybe a good
segue into Jared Allen. Another thing that I think has
become increasingly clear to me over the year years, the
recent seasons is that body strength. It's not the NBA
has moved away from being just big, burly guys whacking

(16:21):
into each other like it was in sort of the
early odds, but in the playoffs, physical, just body strength
has become such an important thing. And a lot of
the teams that do well playing small ball it's because
they've got tough, strong, grimy athletic guards who are able

(16:42):
to go in there and get under big men and
push them around and stuff like that. And I say
all that by way of saying, Okay, you know, Evan
Mobley is youngs in the second year, he can still
fill out and get stronger. Jared Allen is probably someone
who if he was going to get you know, bigger
and strongronger, we'd probably have seen more of it by now.

(17:03):
And I just worry that for a player of I
think his skill level is higher than he's given credit for,
but I think his skill limitations in terms of as
a jump shooter and ball handler, combined with that sort
of lack of physical robustness is a tough combo for
kind of a playoff starting five. And so that's why.

(17:27):
That's why, even though I think he is regular season
a better player than some of the players that I
have him behind from in a playoff setting, at just
you know he got I mean you talked about out
of position whatever. I just remember Mitchell Robinson and and
and Julie's Randall ragdolling him.

Speaker 1 (17:45):
Yeah. Yeah, there was certainly some possessions where that happened.
There's just there's just no way around it. Something I
wanted to ask you about though, kind of with regard
to these moves is you know, you've worked in a
front office and from folks who really know and like
you do. Like a lot of times what we hear
is that a lot of these you know, analytic metrics

(18:06):
and the ways we can kind of judge how a
team does, it's kind of a byproduct at least for
individual players of their circumstance. And like something that I
really added one of the reasons I advocated so strongly
for the kind of moves the Cavs made this offseason,
Like Struce was my number one target and the hang
was my backup, and they got both. And the real

(18:26):
reason I wanted to do that is, like, I just
want the core players of this team, the guys like
Jared Allen, to be put in a spot where the
rest of the roster makes enough sense for us to
actually evaluate them. Like how much do you think the Calves,
like you know, helped themselves out on that front just
by making those moves in terms of like, hey, we're

(18:46):
at least going to have seven eight guys that we
know can play. We've got more than two shooters that
can you know, on the floor at any given time. Now, Like,
how much do you think that impacts their ability to
actually not only evaluate you know, their whole team, but
like what they need to do to help their core
succeed and you know they who really is part of
that core.

Speaker 2 (19:06):
I think that's a tremendous point. Uh, this is a
problem that I that I've had with other teams. You know,
the way the Pistons have built for example, now some
of it, like Kate was Kate Cunningham was hurt most
of the last year anyway, But even in prospect, they
didn't have a they didn't have a roster that would
allow for a clean evaluation of him. And I think

(19:28):
that is a problem that a lot of teams make
because because finding out a guy can't play isn't the
worst thing that can happen. The worst thing can happen
is a guy's going into like a contract year an
extension window and you don't know. That's like, you, you know,
a guy not being good enough. That's not great, but

(19:48):
at least you know you can make a decision. You
you move on, you you make other plans. Not knowing
is where you make the big mistakes. It's where you,
you know, you give a guy, well, sure it'll work out.
You give them, you know, a four year contract for
high twenties or something like that, and it turns out
he's a he is a playoff eighth man or something

(20:09):
like that. It's like, well, that didn't work out, and
we're stuck with that for four more seasons and then
you're kind of done unless you're unless you're you know,
in one of the franchises. And there's not that many
of them anymore that can sort of buy their way
out of that level of mistake. So all of which
is to say, I think that that's a tremendous point
in terms of Yeah, put them with with a guy

(20:30):
who is a legitimate like floor spacing three and see
how the offense looks from a spacing standpoint if you can,
if you can figure out where to put you know,
Mobile and and Alan so that you can operate around them. Also, frankly,
it's a it's a evaluate the coaching staff as well.
You know again, okay, they didn't make the right moves.

(20:51):
There weren't right moves to make, so.

Speaker 1 (20:53):
There to pull right now.

Speaker 3 (20:55):
Yeah, that's one of the points we've been making is
you know, I finally feel comp enough in a rotation
that I like, every player kind of has a defined role,
right Like George Nang's probably going to play more stretch
forward than actually on the wing with this team, and
Isaaca Coral like we share your kind of I wouldn't

(21:16):
even say enthusiasm, but still believe that there's something there.
I think him coming in off the bench when there's
only one big on the floor and he can kind
of you know, play as that Cutter and showcase some
of the other aspects of his game. I think it's
a better situation for them to be able to evaluate them.
So I feel better about the ability to analyze the core.

(21:36):
I feel better about the ability to analyze the coaching staff.
Do you think they've done enough though, in terms of okay,
this is enough support for us to really get a
good read of the core.

Speaker 2 (21:47):
Enough relative to being a title team, or enough relative
to the sort of the levers and mechanisms they had
this offseason to.

Speaker 3 (21:57):
Assess whether or not they're on the right path to
eventually win a title. Like I don't think Carter and
I expect them to go out there and win this year.
We last year we were saying, you know what, ignore
the regular season metrics. Experience really really matters. Team's way
too young, They're they're going to have a bad series.
We thought it was going to happen in second round.

(22:17):
But like we kind of knew this was going to happen.
This is a process. This takes time. Do you feel
like it's enough to assess whether or not this core
is on the right path that they can contend for
a title one day and potentially if you know they
stay together, have a decent runway here.

Speaker 2 (22:34):
I think if if they go into the playoffs relatively
healthy with you know, starting Garland, Mitchell, Strus and the
two bigs, Yeah, I think that. Now I have questions
about whether that will actually work, but those questions are
going to get answered in this sort of way as
opposed to well they Okay, you're playing four on five,

(22:56):
so how do we know? I so yes to that extent,
I do. I mean, I think that, and I think
relative to the levers mechanisms, you know, sort of exceptions
that they had this summer, I think they did very
well in terms of it's just.

Speaker 1 (23:15):
They didn't have a lot of bullets in the chamber.

Speaker 2 (23:16):
Yeah, and you and you know, and you get back
to the too. Maybe you have enough talents period, but
is it the right sort of mix of talents? And
that gets into some other questions, And you know, there's
rumblings in league circles about one of the backcourt players
on the Cavs. I don't know how much you guys

(23:37):
want to actually get into that, but no.

Speaker 3 (23:39):
We we've talked about it plenty, right, Like it's if
Donald Mitchell's the thing We've said over and over again.
Is if Donod Mitchell's main focus is winning, then you
know you've got to go out there and prove we
can provide the best situation for you to contend right
for you to win because he's not a good enough
playmaker to play as a lead guard, so he's going
to have to play now to a point guard, and

(24:01):
with very few exceptions, that means it's going to be
a small backcourt. So in theory, if you're going to
have a small backcourt, you're going to want to have
that backline support. So in theory, Cleveland should work right.

Speaker 1 (24:11):
So you're going to have to try to.

Speaker 3 (24:13):
Win him over, just like any other player, and we'll
see if the talent and support is enough to translate
to playoff success. But we don't have to question whether
or not the support we get from Zoom's translates to success.
Support for this podcast and the following message comes from Zoom.
Half a million businesses connect using Zoom, a single platform
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(24:33):
real time collaboration for teams around the globe. Zoom how
the world connects. Carter, I saw you raise your hand.
What were you going to say?

Speaker 1 (24:40):
There something I was going to say, you know, to
that point about you know, because there is going to
be consternation about the Jared Allen Evan Mobley pairing until
Evan proveously he can be a jump shooter, which you know,
the early returns are not good on that happening at
this point. However, one thing I'll say is I do

(25:02):
want to push back a little gently on this set
in the sense that, like with the way salaries are rising,
I think just because Jarrett is young ish in kind
of on the same timeline as these guys, people are
viewing him as like, you know, a guaranteed has to
play thirty minutes a game guy, Like do you feel

(25:23):
like just part of what they needed to do is
just be able to not have to play him? You know,
because there's a lot of really great rotation players on
a lot of really good a lot of really good
fourth best players on teams have series that aren't right
for them where or that maybe they only play in
some lineups in those series. Like how much does a

(25:45):
guy like Georgia Sniang just being there to be able
to be like, hey, our spacing kind of sucks right now, Jarrett,
You're just we're just gonna stagger you with Evan and
we're going to play. You know, you might go down
to twenty minutes a game. How much do you think
that helps?

Speaker 2 (26:00):
I mean, I think that's definitely got to be the
right matchup because are you able to guard anybody?

Speaker 1 (26:07):
And that that honestly is kind of That's kind of
my next question, which is they added two dudes who
are not great defenders.

Speaker 2 (26:14):
I think I think I so I want to push
back on that a little bit. I think I think
uh Niang is a guy who, if he's not you know,
guarding primary guys, is going to be in the right spots.
You're going to stay in scheme, going to be competent.
I think Struce has a little bit. Uh He's not
going to stay in front of like the jet point guards,
but I think he's got He is a good enough mover.

(26:37):
It has enough size to credibly guard, not locked down,
but credibly guard a decent range of players. So it's like,
you know, he's a substantially better defender than Carroseler, for example.

Speaker 1 (26:52):
I would disagree with that at the point of attack,
but as a help defender, I would certainly agree with that.

Speaker 2 (26:57):
I think he he is. I think he is. He's
more athletic, quicker, and also he uses his his He's
a big dude. He uses his body very well to
get in front of people. So I think he is
a a solid, solid plus defender.

Speaker 3 (27:12):
He just reminded me when when we were watching the playoffs,
I message Carter saying, I don't know why, but Streus
just reminds me of a water polo player. I like,
I can't even explain it, but he just has that
body frame.

Speaker 1 (27:24):
Baby, Yeah, it's an odd frame, it must be said.
You know, I do think it's an interesting, uh kind
of conundrum on the defensive end, Seth, because even though
you know Struce is obviously going to juice the offense
and everything's going to make a lot more sense on
that end, what do you think about kind of the

(27:45):
test they're putting on those two bigs, because it kind
of feels like they're taking it to its logical conclusion
of like, what's the furthest amount of offensive personnel we
can put on the floor and still expect, you know,
Mobile and Allen to mop that up. And I've said
this before, I do think there's some interesting parallels with
what the Jazz did with Donovan Mitchell and Rudy Gobert,

(28:07):
where they just kind of slowly eschewed every possible defender
to just say Rudy will take care of it. Like,
do you think the Calves are better equipped to kind
of make that play knowing that they at least have
two dudes there, so you know they can have Evan
go switch out on some perimeter players and have Jared
still at the rem.

Speaker 2 (28:27):
Whatever you want to say about Max Drusy' is a
better defender than kind of mid to late thirties boy
on Bogdanovic and any age Jordan Clarkson. Yeah, so so
I think that the analogy breaks down there a little bit.
And also, and this is maybe more nitty gritty, just
you know, Mobile and Allen have a little bit more

(28:49):
scheme versatility than Gobert. Now, some of that is the
fact that Gobert's so good as a rim protector. It's like, okay,
even if he did have little bit of switchability, why.

Speaker 1 (29:02):
Yeah, you're you're cutting off your nose despite the face.
If you've got him hanging on the perimeter, where it'd be.

Speaker 3 (29:07):
Like Clay trying to learn how to dribble like Kyrie right,
Like it's just well, you're you're wasting energy. You just
move around and you hit everything like that's that's what
you do.

Speaker 2 (29:17):
It's the early Holland of the NBA. Just no dribbles,
but just buckets. Did you didn't see that one coming,
did you?

Speaker 1 (29:26):
I did not. Didn't see that reference dropping on this spot.
I absolutely did not.

Speaker 3 (29:30):
But let's get into your tears, because I do think
where you had a lot of these guys was fair.

Speaker 1 (29:36):
Karris Lavert was in.

Speaker 3 (29:37):
The fifth here, we'll give a little shout out to him.
Jared Allen was in Tier four B kind of labeled
in that B plus big sections along with Brook Lopez,
Miles Turner, Karl Anthony Towns. I thought that was completely fair.
Evan Mobley Tier four, you kind of had him in
that high Hopes. I thought you did a nice kind
of detailed breakdown there. Similar players in that tier Chris Stepsporzingis,

(30:01):
Robert Williams, Aaron Gordon, and Demonta Sabonis.

Speaker 1 (30:05):
Once again, I.

Speaker 3 (30:06):
Think completely fair. I have no gripes and grievances there.
Darius Garland Tier four a small guards portion of the
sub tier along with Chris Paul, CJ. McCollum, Derek White.
As you can probably guess, this is where I just thought,
what led to the debate and argument in our discord
was basically what differentiates Darius Garland being in this tier

(30:30):
rather than the tier above them? Because you look at
kind of that third tier of three C Guards, LaMelo
Halliburn Beal, three B Brunson, Holiday, Kyrie Trey, and were
having a discussion of basically, if this were rankings, could
understand Garland being put behind some of those guys, especially
guys that have had further playoff runs, more playoff success.

(30:53):
I couldn't really understand him kind of being a tier
removed though. That's kind of where I pushed back a
little bit, and I wanted to get kind of a
detailed explanation in your eyes, of what separates him from
those guys, because you know, this has now been two
years of Garland having a decent amount of team success
as well.

Speaker 2 (31:13):
Yeah, he's small and slight, that's fair. So you know,
Chris Paul is down there because he's kind of aged
to being down there. He was among like the smaller guys,
he was much he was much higher because he was
I mean he still is like very tough, very strong.
Garland is slight. He does not navigate screens very well.

(31:37):
He is a He's going to be a target for
our ball and off ball screens in the playoff series
series you play. And is he good enough offensively to
balance that out? Maybe some? But you you look at
the guys who are above there, I think that you know,

(31:57):
you know, LaMelo and Haliburton, that's more or just pure size.
Yeah yeah, but you I mean, is Bradley Beale even
probably similar offensive skill set but just bigger also and
is so is he like is he Trey Young level
as an offensive player?

Speaker 1 (32:19):
I wouldn't necessarily like.

Speaker 3 (32:21):
What I like about Garland's offensive game is that I
think he his game is more malleable than Trey's, like
when you talk about adding talent around, like he's got
a better ability to play off ball. I think the
fact that you were able to integrate Donovan Mitchell and
Garland stats didn't drop off at all, and Mitchell as
a result, you know, had a career year. I think

(32:42):
that that's something that's a feather in his cap. And
while he is slight, and that's something that even like
you see offseason interviews, Garland's talked about I was just
like first month or two I was in the gym,
like I needed to add more kind of size. I
need to add more strength. The beating of the playoffs,
which is, you know, a common thing you hear from
players after their first taste to playoff basketball. But I've

(33:03):
always felt like he does for his size and for
his frame, I feel like he does a good job defensively.

Speaker 2 (33:10):
I don't care about the for his size.

Speaker 3 (33:11):
Though, No, But like we're like there is no good
defensive metric. I understand that there is none. They're all
black box stats. But even when you talk about like
defensive EPM, which is probably the best, he's had two
positive seasons in a row, and you look at the
guards above him, the only ones that had a better
defensive EPM last year were Drew Holiday and Fred van Vliet.

(33:35):
Everybody else is a negative. Everyone else is behind him.
So like even Jalen Brunson, you know, like he's twentieth
percentile in defensive EPM. Like I do feel like he
does a good enough job defensively where I don't use
that as a knock to kind of take away what
he does as a playmaker, because I do think he's
one of the better playmakers, and he is an efficient

(33:57):
offensive player and a good shooter. I just don't see
enough there to separate him in those tiers, And ultimately, like,
well we'll see right, Like it's nothing we say is
going to translate to the basketball court. But just for
the sake of debate and conversation, that's that's where I
was coming from, where I didn't really see enough there

(34:18):
to say, Okay, yeah, LaMelo's taller, but he doesn't play
any defense. He doesn't give any off effort on that end,
So why is he necessarily already ahead of him?

Speaker 2 (34:30):
So, just to be to be clear, they're like these
these the tiers are very playoff viability focused. So the
fact that in regular season play he can be an
effective defender, that's that's to his credit. But again, I
think you just eat the the playoffs are so much
all right, we're just gonna put that guy in every

(34:52):
in every ball screen, or if we've got a physical
point guard ourselves, we're gonna run our guy into the post.
We're gonna just we're gonna just we're gonna just beat
the crap out of him and that's just there, and
you know, team teams have tried to do that to
say Steph, it's actually to be fair. Defensively, teams have
at times been able to wear him down a little

(35:14):
bit just by cheer physicality.

Speaker 1 (35:16):
I mean that was a big six, right, we're familiar.

Speaker 3 (35:20):
Yeah, we were running every single play at Steph, not
just because like you know, you can kind of get
a seize miss matter. They were switching him onto Lebron.
You can wear him down and that's going to have
an impact on his ability to affect the game offensively
as well.

Speaker 2 (35:35):
But I mean, I think just the delta in terms
of the offensive players we're talking about, and the fact
that Steph is substantially bigger than Garland. He's probably got
twenty pounds on him, yeah at this point.

Speaker 1 (35:48):
In terms of weight.

Speaker 2 (35:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (35:50):
So I'm also not arguing that Garland should be Tier
one here, I'm saying I didn't see enough to say, Okay,
he's not in the LaMelo Brunson tier he should be
with you know, Derek White and Alex Caruso, right, Like
I just felt, now.

Speaker 2 (36:07):
Those are two players I love. So I don't.

Speaker 3 (36:09):
Understand that those are players you love, but I don't
think those are players that if you put them on
the calves of two years ago, they're leading them to
forty five wins necessarily.

Speaker 2 (36:18):
So that's that's a great point, by the way, is
that one of the this is one of the hard
bits of a project like this, is the differentiation between
a guy who is sort of a floor raizer if
he's your second best player, brings you to competence, but
is maybe a and and and you know, Garland's young

(36:38):
enough that this is not a like a permanent sentence
or something. Yeah, but at this point a little bit
of a stealing limitter because of some of these drawbacks
versus a guy who is sort of a plug and
play elite role player. How do you those are? That's
those are always hard distinctions for me to make. And
I think i've sort of if there's a a player

(37:00):
kind of type that I've consistently caught heat for being
lower on the small guards, it's not it's not just
small guards. It's the the the pretty good but not
great offensive player who who is best as sort of
a primary secondary guy, but isn't quite good enough at
that and doesn't bring enough other stuff.

Speaker 1 (37:20):
So I don't think oh god God.

Speaker 2 (37:23):
So now we say, like the good news for for Girlands,
the calves are going to be good enough that he's
going to have every opportunity to, you know, to show
that he has learned from his first playoffs and learned
how to adjust, learned how to adapt when the team
has learned how to utilize him in such a way
to maximize the strengths and not have those the weaknesses

(37:43):
be as glaring. So it's not a permanent thing that
he's there. It's as of right now until he shows
me that like that that he is he has found
out how to mitigate those weaknesses, or he he improves
the point offensively where he's if he's coming down and
he's you know, thirty usage sixty two shooting in playoff series,

(38:04):
I don't care what he does on defense, he's going
to be higher.

Speaker 3 (38:07):
Yeah right, that's how Trey elevator, right.

Speaker 1 (38:09):
Yeah, yeah. So I kind of wanted to ask a
couple of questions and also also challenge a few things.

Speaker 2 (38:16):
You know.

Speaker 1 (38:16):
I again, I don't I think, in my opinion, I
feel like there is a little bit of an overstatement
of the concern about his personal on ball defense and
how damaging it is to the Cavaliers.

Speaker 2 (38:27):
And I want to be clear, it's not just it's
not it's off ball too, because teams that this is
the part where the targeting is. You mentioned, you know,
the calves being able to get switches with Steph. A
lot of that is you know, it's the it's the
you want to put him as the screen defender in
a pick and roll, so you try to get you know,
you set a you know, you set a wide pin
for him, and he and and now he he switches

(38:50):
either is you know, guarding a big or he is
is trailing the play and is the screen defender in
a pick and roll. And it's not a spot where
he can necessarily offer a lot of just again from size,
like he can't take away passing lanes. He can't you know,
contest shot super well without getting super tight, and then

(39:11):
he then you know, he gives a chance to let
guys turn the corner. So it's those like the even
the off ball stuff that I think gets targeted more
in the postseason than just like, well he can't guard.

Speaker 1 (39:23):
Anybody, sure, So I think what I'd like to kind
of challenge is I just don't see as of now
like where the data is kind of supporting that that's
being as damaging as kind of we're asserting that it
is because you know, in the regular season, you know,

(39:43):
as Justin mentioned, you know a lot of his catch
all metrics are quite good. The Calves regular season defense
was quite good, and the Calves postseason defense was quite good,
in fact, much much better than their regular season defense
by the numbers. Now, obviously, there are plenty of bones
to pick with the New York Now offense context context context.

Speaker 2 (40:03):
Obviously, I don't I'm not like the relative playoff defense
and offensive rating is like, I don't really like citing
those because it's it's the reason why offense and a
defense are rating are good metrics is sort of It's
like it balances out who you're playing against across the season.
Whereas you played one team seven times, it's like, yeah,

(40:23):
we were great on defense because they shot twenty three
percent from three. We did that, right.

Speaker 3 (40:28):
It's also probably why you wouldn't want to over index
on five.

Speaker 1 (40:32):
I'm just so okay, I'm sorry, Yeah, yeah, I'm just saying,
like I think like we're kind of just deciding that
it's going to kill them right now. Like, and I
understand that there's a lot of data that support it's
hard to defend with small point guards. Sure, but like,
if there's a team that's built to insulate that pretty well,
it's this one. And then I think the other note

(40:54):
I'll ask before I actually get, I'll kind of push
back before I get to my functional question is that
you know, I don't think I think that you are
a little bit underrating Darius his malleyability. I feel like
a guy like Austin reeves Stock is so darn high
right now because of the fact that he kind of

(41:17):
fits with any lineup right now. I mean, you get
he plugs into the team USA and immediately is like, yep,
he's helping because he's out here. And I think Darius,
at least on the offensive end, qualifies on that front.
You know, you look at his impact on the Cavs
offense since he you know, found his footing, and it
is not in the Tray Young Ballpark, where if he

(41:40):
puts up thirty six and fourteen, he had the team wins,
and if he doesn't, the team does not do well.
I feel like Darius's ability to be a guy who
could put up twenty and eight and you know, maybe
be the best offensive player for the team on that
given night, even even if the volume isn't there, plays
very much in his favor. And I do want to suggest,

(42:01):
if I may push back a little bit more, that
that is a spot where I would go like, hey,
I feel like we're not we're not giving malleyability. It's
due because I think he can help just about any
playoff team on that side of the ball, respective of
you know, regardless of context.

Speaker 2 (42:18):
So two things here. One is that's an argument for
elite role player, not star and and and sort of
tier three like the bottom of tier there's that's sort
of the the the role player ceiling is sort of
the top of tier four and and just has been.

Speaker 3 (42:36):
And so but isn't that also a big part of
what makes Staaf kind of so special and like the
absolute perfect modern point guard.

Speaker 2 (42:43):
Yeah, but so, but a like him, And I would
say Kevin Durant is another example of of a of
a like a star level player. It's like, yeah, just
just put him, it'll be great. You can do whatever
you want that. So that's one bit. The other bit
is it's not just Garland that I'm indexing on. I
think last postseason was rough for kind of the slight

(43:06):
mediocre or worse kind of hybrid guards. The heat did
great with Tyler herro out, Jordan Poole was a disaster.
And so that it's it's there are multiple index points
to say that this is a that is, there's a

(43:27):
little bit of a of a sort of a player
archetype that he's sort of is a baseline against which
he's he's being judged from. And I'll freely admit that.
And yeah, Austin Reeves is you know, the fact that
Austin Reeves is bigger. Also the fact that you know
they Austin Reeves is closing playoff games with the ball
in his hands, with Lebron James on the court. I

(43:47):
mean there's a certain there's a certain amount of of
oh really to that.

Speaker 1 (43:54):
Yeah, that was that was not a pejorative. I just
found I feel like the bonus points were giving Austin
Reeves I think also belong you know, should factor and
is a plus for Darius, not a minus. I did
want to ask though, to actually get to my question,
which is, I do think Darius left a lot of

(44:14):
meat on the bone this last season in terms of
kind of his game. You know, you look at six
six three point attempts for thirty six minutes, despite you know,
every metric saying this guy's an elite off the dribble
three point shooter. That's my answer to, like, what propels
him to the next level becoming that guy who you know,

(44:36):
when he gets a sliver of space is firing away
from distance. What is your road to him jumping up
you know, a tier?

Speaker 2 (44:45):
That's certainly one option. I would s Another way is
just since they do have, you know, ball handling, and
if part of it is to get Evan Mobley some
reps on the ball, which I think is kind of
a necessity if he becomes like a movement shooter as well,
and I think that if you know, he's an if
he can shoot off the dribble, he I think that

(45:07):
there's decent indications that he should be able to shoot
off movement off ball as well, and so being able
to be someone who can create defensive movement with their
off ball movement as well as their sort of on
ball gravity, I think that would be a that would
be a certainly a way to I don't think the
synergy between Mitchell and and Garland was bad anyway, I

(45:28):
think there's more there and and so I think that
would certainly be one of them. And I think if, yeah,
if he gets up to you know, whether it's off
the dribble or you know, coming off coming off of
pin downs or relocating or what have you, if he
gets up to eight ten, like, that's a that's that's
a step forward there, that's a way that that you

(45:48):
know he could that. I don't say that matchup proofs him,
but it raises his offensive profile to the point where, Okay, yes,
you're giving you're you're giving something away on this end,
but you're taking more on that end, and you're doing
so consistently.

Speaker 1 (46:04):
Yeah. One thing that I've said a lot about my
frustration with Darius is three point volume, because this has
always been our gripe. We've been griping about this since
his rookie year, because he's just so committed to being
a team player and making the right play that it's like, brother,
you just got to shoot. You can't let you know,
perfect be the enemy of good, especially in the postseason.

(46:25):
One other benefit I think to him becoming that volume
three point shooter, both off the dribble and off movement,
though I think I think his movement shooting is quite
good from by the numbers, I think his volume can
across the board needs to go up. However, one thing
I really think that also does is it makes it
a lot freaking easier to play the two bigs if

(46:46):
you are panicking defenses out to thirty feet by your existence.
You know, there's a reason the Warriors have gotten away
with Draymond Green and Kevon Looney, who are not only
you know, just as out of shooters as Evan Mobley
and Jared Allen. They're way smaller like, but they're able
to get away with it just because of the fact

(47:07):
that those guys inspire such terror that you know, just
setting a flare screen out there has, you know, pulls
two bodies. And I think that's where Darius, and I
think Donovan is already there from a volume perspective on
that front. You know, if he's open from three coming
off a girl, he won't be shooting. Not worried about that.

Speaker 2 (47:28):
Not a lot of hesitation there.

Speaker 1 (47:30):
No, But I do think that really is darius next
step because it kind of future proof and not only
you know, not only match up proves him and kind
of matchup proofs the two big lineup a little bit too.

Speaker 2 (47:42):
Yeah, I'm I'm you know. You sent me off on
a tangent. If if Evan Mobley develops Kevon Looney's like
defensive feel for the game, he's a defensive player of
the year.

Speaker 1 (47:55):
I think he's already defensive player of the year, Seth.
That's what I'll say. Yeah, okay, he just needs a
few more fouls the game and then I need to
throw some homersm in there for a second. I do want.

Speaker 3 (48:09):
Because we are we want to be respectful of your
time here. You had Donovan Mitchell Tier three A with
Jalen Brown and Edwards and Deer and Fox, and you
noted I thought one of the interesting things there. You
noted his tendency to play a little bit of playoff
hero ball could impact the team's postseason ceiling, which is
concerned we expressed prior to him coming to the Cavs, right,

(48:30):
and I thought the series against the Knicks was a
weird mix of him pressing and then also trying to
defer and trying to find that balance. Just a not
a good series, And specifically when we talk about the
defensive end, that was one of the spots where he
really needed to improve. And I think even going back

(48:50):
to Garland, the addition to Max Drews and isaacle cor
not being there to guard primary ball handlers, that's going
to be a spot where Garland's going to be put
to the test and we'll see, like how he holds
up defensively, whether you know he is able to add
some strength and do well in that matchup. But when
it comes to kind of Mitchell and finding the right
balance between what he's so good at individually and successful

(49:13):
team offense, I think you already kind of hinted at
it in terms of, you know, getting Evan Mobley more
involved as a playmaker. But I want to know if
there's kind of modifications within the existing personnel that this
team has to kind of redistribute some of those responsibilities
to better maximize their collective strengths and make it harder
for defenses to take them away. Is it mobilely is

(49:34):
kind of the playmaker and just watching like ridiculous amounts
of film of bam Adebio.

Speaker 2 (49:40):
I think there's some I think just just getting the
two bigs more involved, whether it's you know, you're doing
some high low passing, you're whatever it is to just
build a little bit more versatility. So it doesn't especially
in playoff settings, it doesn't like break down into one
high ball screen clear out.

Speaker 1 (50:00):
Yeah, I'm gonna go a lot of that.

Speaker 2 (50:02):
Yeah. Uh I. So in terms of internal improvement, you
did bring up Mitchell. There were times this season where
he showed a lot more defensively. One game I can
think of, in particular against the Celtics, I believe, where
he made he made four or five like game like
really game impactful, like defensive plays on pretty good players,

(50:26):
on Jalen Brown and Jason Datum, like very good players,
And it's it's if you can kind of just want
to see that more consistently, and maybe and maybe there's
a there's a bit of redistributing some of the offensive
load to the point where there's more energy left for that.
So it's like, okay, you no, your your your Your
job isn't to like do everything on offense. Your job

(50:49):
is to do everything to help us win. And so
that means like play in the offense and like you know,
guard the hell up. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (50:57):
Maybe maybe there's just something to the Jalen Bruns in
matchup where that's just like a bad alchemical reaction for him,
you know, because I really do think he had a
nice defensive year on the whole, and then you know
when they when they played against the next pretty much
like the whole, you know, like through that back end
of the year. They had that matchup near the end
of the year, then obviously the series is just like

(51:19):
just taking weird angles lunging every time.

Speaker 3 (51:23):
It was their worst team regular season and playoffs.

Speaker 1 (51:26):
Like, I just feel like there's something about that matchup
that just is not good for the for Donovan Mitchell's
defensive brain, because.

Speaker 2 (51:34):
I think he's just not used to getting overpowered.

Speaker 4 (51:37):
That might maybe and he's probably he's probably not used
to guys being able to not just like because again
he did good, has done good defensive stuff against.

Speaker 2 (51:48):
Jalen Brown, who's not, you know, not small, But the
fact that someone who can who can, who can get
under him and and move him out of the way,
I don't think that's something he's got that much experience,
because again, he's probably been the strongest guard on the
floor majority of his whole life. And then and then
and then you know, Jalen Brunson is just like is

(52:11):
a is a power forward playing point guard at.

Speaker 3 (52:14):
Times, and just you know, and Brunson rather than Brown,
like he can go right left and grift right. So
there's three options for him there.

Speaker 1 (52:22):
You are such a comeback. I think it's an interesting
conundrum though. You know, it's like and it's also like
that stop and start game almost like kind of uses
Mitchell's athleticism against him. You know, most of the time
it wasn't it wasn't just a straight blowbys. It was
Mitchell lunging in the wrong direction. So you know, I
wonder if there's just maybe maybe in a different matchup,

(52:43):
like he looks a little bit better, But like I
do think that is like a little bit of wishful thinking,
and really he just like he just needs to play better.

Speaker 2 (52:50):
Yeah, Reggie Jackson destroyed him in the playoffs a couple
of years.

Speaker 3 (52:52):
Ago, so yeah, yeah, there's there's heids and lows. And
one of the takeaways we had from that series two was,
you know, Carter and I like our formative basketball years
and all the time talking about this team, like we're
so used to our star being Lebron James, which is
just known commodity in the playoffs all the time when

(53:15):
that's just not the case with which people problems man,
even some of the best players like you look at
Damian Lillard. He hasn't really had an efficient series outside
the first round, right, and he's someone that I would
consider a playoff performer. We you have guys like Jason Tatum,
like Kevin Durant up and down the lineup, like it's
just so rare to have someone with the consistency of
a Lebron James, with that hive of a playoff floor.

Speaker 2 (53:37):
But before we get like he's one of the two
or three best players of all time.

Speaker 3 (53:42):
It's it's one of those it's one of those funny things,
you know when some day Garland will get up there
with his lockdown defense.

Speaker 2 (53:48):
Of course, would you, by the way, would you guys
be offended if I if I said there's a top
three with Lebron and Lebron, mj and Kareem would.

Speaker 3 (53:58):
My my my greatest of all time take has been
If your top three is Jordan, Lebron and Kareem in
some order, I will respect that. I think that is
the three prong conversation, And who you prefer comes to
what you value.

Speaker 1 (54:14):
Cocher PEPSI.

Speaker 3 (54:15):
Yeah, you know, basketball is so subjective, and that's why
we like having people with other perspectives on here. And
I love like I think the Internet has ruined people's
brains where they're like, if you disagree on sports, you
dislike a person. Like ninety nine percent of my real
world sports conversations are like disagreements, going back and forth,
you know, talking about different things we value differently, Like

(54:37):
it's fun this is what It's funny enough.

Speaker 1 (54:39):
I agree with justin most of the time, and I
really dislike them.

Speaker 3 (54:42):
Yeah, well that's because I'm always right, like you're you're agreeing.

Speaker 1 (54:46):
But even when we agree, it's it's horrible.

Speaker 3 (54:49):
But before we get you out of here, I do
want to get your take on kind of how you
would define a successful season for the Cavs next year.
What is there something they could show? Obviously it's going
to be playoff or shouldn't they obviously, but I'm gonna
guess playoff related, But is there something they could show
that in your eyes would say, yes, they are on

(55:09):
the right path. This is a core that can contend
in the future. I believe in this now because I've
seen this.

Speaker 2 (55:17):
I mean so in terms of this is a core
that can they got to win around this year. That's
that's not yes, So that means they probably have to
play well enough in the regular season so that they're
not playing I don't know, Boston in the first round,
whoever else ends up at the top of the East
that way, what you know, Milwaukee, Philly, what good Miami?

(55:43):
You might take you whoever ends up in that, Like
Boston at this point is probably the only team that
we're we can probably be. Yeah, they're gonna be really good.

Speaker 1 (55:50):
You know, it's Boston Milwaukee.

Speaker 2 (55:52):
For me, I think there's enough questions about this sort
of the age of Milwaukee's core that to me.

Speaker 3 (56:01):
That, look, I want to project vulnerability on all these teams.
But Milwaukee won a lot of games last year with
Chris Middleton like not playing, So even if he's eighty
percent of who he is at his best, I think
eighty two games or like seventy games of that is
an improvement.

Speaker 2 (56:16):
Yeah. No, sure, we can go round and around on that.
But also I mean that the Bucks had under my
buddenholes where the Bucks did have sort of a regular
season kind of wheat threshing kind of thing going on.
So and and kind of at at times it worked
and at times didn't into the playoffs. So there, so

(56:37):
I think with a new coaching staff, do they still
have that Well, we're playing a bad team on Tuesday night,
so we win, which is which is you know, a
lot of in the budenholes or years, that was a
lot of there. They they didn't lose that many games
they should have won in the regular season, which is
a great you know, it's not it's not a it's
it's you know, you're beating all the bad teams all

(57:00):
the time. That puts you in a good position to
have good, good playoff runs. But it's not the same
thing as you know, beating Charlotte on on you know,
a random night in in you know, October, is not
the same thing as beating Boston in May. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (57:17):
Well, I'll say I certainly won't ever turn my nose
up at it. I've seen enough losing seasons, that's listen.
This is my favorite hobby. I would much rather win
way more than we.

Speaker 2 (57:29):
So I took myself down a tangent. But but so
winning around is you know, on one hand, the other
hand is I think Carter to your point, having a
roster that that is you know, intact and makes theoretical
enough sense. And then you get in the playoffs and
it just doesn't work. And and so you go in

(57:51):
and you just like, all right, we gave this, you know,
we we gave it a clean run. It's not going
to happen. These guys are pretty good. So so there
are there are levers to pull too, to you know,
to to to rejigger this thing. And now we have
to do that. That's that's not success, but that's progress. Yeah,

(58:16):
if that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (58:16):
Yeah, well it's data. It's usable data. Like I that
was my biggest frustration with the postseason was that I
didn't learn that much because everyone had a bad series.
Isaac o Coro led the team in plus minus like
you know, like and you know, it just didn't feel
like I could action enough, you know, like I you know,

(58:39):
and some people do feel like they had enough, Like
some people decided Jared Allen's not gonna work. But I'm like,
there's so there's so much weirdness, so much noise, so
much Danny Green at the four on one leg that
I'm like, I just I'm not comfortable getting there that
Yet they closed game one with Jetty Osmona's the primary
go defender on Jalen Runson. Yeah, they were so short

(59:04):
on options.

Speaker 3 (59:05):
So I feel like Icacle Coral missing the last month
of the season and then getting hurt again in Game
one like that.

Speaker 1 (59:11):
Just it didn't help.

Speaker 3 (59:13):
I don't think the Cavs responded well to the ten
days off between the regular season and the playoffs. Like
there's just so many like levels of failure to this
that it just.

Speaker 1 (59:24):
And that's an excuse. The Nicks. We're in the same
now we have enough. I think they now have enough
for us to really know and it's just gonna be
a you know, so whether they win around or got
hope of two rounds, that would be amazing.

Speaker 3 (59:39):
My big take is that I don't think they can
be Alas again. I don't think they can be outclassed again.
Like I think they have to win around, and I
think they need to be competitive because if you went around,
you're playing one of the best teams in the Eastern Conference,
you have to look competitive. If it's like a four
or five game series against one of those teams and
you're just very clearly not in the same weight class,
I think that's very very concerning. Like we had a

(01:00:02):
debate in the discord of would you rather lose in
five in the Eastern Conference finals and win the n
season tournament or losing seven in the second round and
win the in season tournament. And I want the tournament win,
and I want to lose in seven to a very
good team rather than getting out class, because I think
if they get out class, then you start to question
about the viability of this core.

Speaker 2 (01:00:23):
That's that's funny.

Speaker 1 (01:00:26):
Did that tickle your fancy there?

Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
No, it's that it reminded me of of a mistake
I almost made in the Tier I think a mistake
I almost made the Tiers last year where I was
going to push Jason Tatum down for having a kind
of mediocre finals, and I was like, wait a minute,
So I would have felt better about him if Jimmy
Butler's shot had gone in and they hadn't and they

(01:00:50):
hadn't got a chance to play against this better team.
That doesn't make any sense. So I think that.

Speaker 3 (01:00:56):
It's basically the Lebron thing, right, Like he's penalized for
making the finals teams.

Speaker 2 (01:01:02):
The dumbest thing ever. But you know, like eight straight
finals is one of the most amazing runs a a
in a real like the distribution of talent was not
even between the conferences, but it was a pretty good
level of talent across the league. And to go to
eight straight finals is like ludicrous.

Speaker 1 (01:01:25):
It's ridiculous.

Speaker 3 (01:01:26):
And I will always give some respect to the Roy
Hibbert Pacers that that was a very fun team that
I like to root for and was wishing that they
would beat the Heat. But Seth, thank you so much
for coming on. We've taken up way too much of
your time already. Really do appreciate you coming on. Anything
before we let you go that you you want to
let people know about that? You don't want people to
know about my.

Speaker 2 (01:01:48):
Book, The mid Range series still for sales a book
at online bookstores everywhere, and I am in the process
of writing book number two.

Speaker 3 (01:01:55):
Oh hell yeah, Oh congress, Do you want to tease?
Is this the platform where you tease it what it's
going to be?

Speaker 2 (01:02:02):
No, it's it's not nearly done enough yet for me.
Don't want to tease anything.

Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
That's very fair area.

Speaker 3 (01:02:09):
It sounds like your book writing is very much about
the same way that I use sentences. Basically, I start
and we'll figure out what the point is by the
time I get to the end of it. Big thanks
to Seth for coming on. Make sure you guys are
also subscribed to The Athletic NBA show love Nerder, She wrote,
You guys do great work there by the mid range theory.
Listen to them, read them, subscribe to the Athletic. It's

(01:02:30):
almost that time where basketball is here and I can't
wait to talk about actual games. I hate these hypotheticals.
Big thanks to everyone that tuned in live on YouTube.
Make sure you like and subscribe. Click notification bell so
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(01:02:50):
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there until next time.

Speaker 5 (01:02:56):
Yo, CAAs satordat same sta