Offseason Report Card: Guards

Justin and Carter kick off their 2022-23 positional review by taking a closer look at the Cavaliers guard play in the past season.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This crowd rises to its me what carl slamming it?

Speaker 2 (00:04):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (00:04):
Carle left wing reball perfect Darlot then half block the
shot at the rim, how in the left hand and
a fowl.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
Welcome to the Chase Doown Podcast, part of the Cavs
media family. I'm your host, Justin Rowan. The Chasedown is
presented by Fubo TV. Watch over one hundred channels of
live sports and TV for half the cost of cable.
There's no contract and no commitment. Try for free at
FuboTV dot com. The off season keeps rolling around, and
we are going to kick things off and start doing
some of our recaps for the past season. We're going

(00:36):
to break things down by position group and today we
are going through the guards, talking about what went well,
what could have gone better, whether or not the positions
needed to be addressed in the off season. And joining
me today to get this started is my co host
Carter Rodriguez. Carter, how are you doing, buddy? I'm doing good? Uh?
Your boy? Is a big professional night for you boy? Uh,

(00:59):
because Emmy nominated Carter Rodriguez is Emmy losing. Carter Rodriguez
shouts out to the League of Legends team who beat
out the other candidates invest Outstanding Esports production at the
Sports Emmys tonight. However, huge shout out to the Call
of Duty League Gang, who produced, in my opinion, one

(01:19):
of the very very best shows in all of es sports.
So a bit of a bummer, but nevertheless, still very
very proud. And I can put Emmy nominated on my
LinkedIn and that's really what we're looking for, justin Yeah,
you know what, my condolences for you coming up just
a little bit short. That's very impressive to get nominated.
Part of me feels a little bit relieved because if

(01:39):
you're putting an Emmy behind yourself, like I have enough
trouble keeping you in check as is, I don't want
that level of ego infiltrating the podcast. It just would
be too much. Yeah, it would have gone over. It
would have gone over, like right over here in this
in this part of the of the frame. But nevertheless,
you know, you know, you'll live, you'll learn, And very

(02:04):
very proud of the team. All jokes aside, and was
it was really cool just to have the moment. And
I have a pretty cool day job. I won't lie,
it's pretty cool. But Actually, you know what, this kind
of transitions into something I want to talk about before
we discuss the Cavs guards today, which is years ending,
not the way that teams expect, not the way that

(02:26):
people expect. And I'm just kind of remarking, Carter at
the way that every single team in the Eastern Conference,
the best Eastern Conference that we've seen in a very
long time, every team that avoided the plan, with the
exception of Brooklyn, i'd say, is not feeling great about
how their season ended. I know this is a little premature.

(02:47):
Boston hasn't lost just yet, but when you look at Milwaukee,
in all likelihood Boston unless the unprecedented happens. You look
at New York, all those teams lost to an eight
seat Calves obviously lost to the New York Knicks. We
are still reeling, we are still healing from all of
that Philadelphia seventy six ers three to two lead and

(03:09):
that gets blown against the Boston Celtics. It's just remarkable. Man.
We talked about going into the playoffs, how even though
there were these three teams that we you and I
felt were a tier above the Calves, there were so
many question marks with each one of these and listening
back to last week's podcast, I said the uncertainty with
Jalen Brunson, I meant Jalen Brown, but you look at

(03:31):
the top of the Eastern Conference and man, like, just
I don't feel like anybody is going into this offseason
saying like, you know what, good job, good job us.
That is exactly how we wanted this season end. I
think the Knicks can feel good about beating the Calves.
I think of that group they can feel the best.
But man, it's just it's been a really really surprising

(03:52):
playoffs so far. Yeah, I mean, thank god, really good.
It takes a lot of heat off our voice, though
hopefully not internally. Hopefully it's not taking any heat off
them internally. But yeah, I mean, it's it's crazy to
have the top four teams in the conference all go
down in flames, you know, the top Potentially we could

(04:15):
be looking at one through three seeds all letting go
of their coach this summer. It's just wild. And you know,
I talked about it a little bit about how parody
seems to be stronger than ever, so being top heavy,
maybe that's not as good in the modern league because

(04:38):
you know, the difference between the tenth best player and
the thirtieth best players in that But I think Boston
has better depth than my at least from a pedigree perspective.
It's just it is hard to fathom how this is
going so badly for Boston. I just think the real
answer is these teams are all crazy close one through
eight in both conferences, and it's just every series is

(05:04):
a little, you know, flash in the panty, you know,
just it just depends on who's in good, good form
right now. It feels like hockey or something. It really does. Yeah,
and it's hard to wrap your head around it. Yeah,
the margins are a lost center in. I don't want
to go full dr or morally here and say, you know,
playoffs are a small sample size, but they are right,

(05:24):
and when you have an Eastern Conference that's this competitive,
you're going to have things like this. And to me,
it's remarkable that people that I'm seeing complaints because I
feel like this has been one of the best playoffs
that I've watched in a very, very long time. One
of the major complaints people have had is that the
playoffs are too predictable. We just, you know, the top
seeds are always going to win. We know who's going

(05:45):
to be in the NBA Finals. No, that's very different. Well,
in one conference, you do have a one seed that
was the best team all season. You know, after they
lock things up, they took their foot off the gas
a little bit. But come playoffs, they're just dominant everyone.
They're wiping the floor with everybody in the Western Conference
and in the East you have the Miami Heat, who

(06:06):
have been to the conference finals three of the last
four years. They went through this season with the most
player games missed in terms of injuries. They were experimenting
with things throughout the regular season. It wasn't that there's
a notion that the Miami Heat aren't taking the regular
season serious and they're just flipping the switch when it
comes to the playoffs. No, they had guys in and
out of the lineup. They were working on empowering guys

(06:28):
like Gabe Vincent, Max Strus, Caleb Martin, bringing in you know,
Kevin Love who didn't play well throughout the course of
the regular season for them, who they weren't able to
play in the play in But because you know, they
gave them those reps, and those reps probably cost them
in the seedings, falling from like five and six down
to eight. But you know, giving those reps, taking a

(06:49):
different approach to the regular season, that's what helped get
them to this point that they're at. And man's that's
a good team. That's a good team in a very
good conference. Yeah, it's it's really They obviously have the pedigree,
they have the the they have the best coach in
the league, which you know, if the margins are thinner,

(07:10):
then maybe your coach matters more than it ever has.
And Spoe is a savant man. I they recently showed
highlights of uh SPO's first finals run with Lebron and co.
Uh he is on some kind of super non aging serum.
He looks he looks great anyway. Uh, you know, I

(07:33):
think he's the best coach in the league. They have
they have a bunch of sixteen game players and they
are taking advantage. But then there's just stuff that's weird.
They were the worst shooting team in the league for
three and then they're and they're they're burning the nuts
down on on some open shots, but a lot of
contested ones. I mean, you know, Simmons and Rossella were

(07:55):
talking about it in the second playing game, gave Vinson
had zero point, it's in twenty seven minutes, and now
he's scoring twenty nine in the conference finals. Like we
still talk about Booby Gibson because he had a game
like that, and Gabe Vincent's doing it every other game. Yeah,
Like it just feels like a team of destiny right now.

(08:16):
But I do think one, you know, we as self
obsessed Cabs fans, I think we're always looking for things
to kind of tie back to this team. And the
one thing I will say is all these teams are
actually pretty old. You know, with the exception of Jason
and Jalen for Boston, like most of these teams are
playing veteran players that you know, one through eight, they've

(08:40):
all seen some stuff. You know, we're seeing repeats of
conference finals from years past, and man, maybe maybe it
is just some more seasoning. Maybe it is. You know,
you're also seeing teams who can rely on their seventh
and eighth men to like not just play okay, but
to win them games. And you know, you just kind

(09:02):
of keep looking for little blueprints, little little things to
figure out what's going to take this Cavs team up
to this level. Because you know, even with one through
three in the conference feeling pretty terrible, I still feel
like the Cavs feel far away just by the nature
of how they lost to that next team. So you know,

(09:22):
it's it's going to be an interesting dynamic to see,
kind of as I always say, what Lesson Skoby tries
to take away. Yeah, honestly, like for me as a fan,
I'm I'm looking at this and I'm looking at Jason
Tatum and Jaylen Brown, you know, twenty six, twenty five
years old, and like they're still learning, they're still going
through that process, and that makes me uneasy a little

(09:44):
bit because we're still dealing with Evan Mobley who's twenty
one years old, Darius Garland twenty three years old, Donno
Mitchell twenty six, Jared Allen just turned twenty five. Right, Like,
there's like there's so much pressure in the NBA, and
I think it really highlights just how hard the job
is because you build it team that looks like it
has a lot of runway, and what you have to
do is keep trying to add town to add the

(10:06):
supports to make it seem like you're always moving in
the right direction. And there's so many teams that have
these good foundations that don't get to that mountain top
and the margins are so thin and you have to
have so much luck justin I'll tell you what I
don't know. If you know this, only one team wins
every year. I am aware of this. I've heard twenty

(10:27):
nine losers. You know, I love I love doing my research.
I'll need to double check that fact, but it sounds true.
But you know, like to me, it just kind of
highlights the need to enjoy the process, to enjoy kind
of the journey because we know how great it feels
at the top. And I still believe that this is
a Cavs core that can get to those heights. It's just,

(10:49):
you know, it's a lot of damn work. But you're right,
there is a lot of kind of instability around the
caves in the Eastern Conference. I think that's something that
you know, could go to their favor. I always say, right, like,
the NBA is not algebra, right, Like, you're not doing
NBA algebra of well, we lost to this team by five,
but that team beat the other one. If you're doing that,

(11:11):
you could say, hey, the Knicks gave Miami a bigger
fight than Boston. So therefore the Knicks the Cats are
actually closer to the heat than Boston is. And you
can do all that kind of stuff. That's not the case. Man.
It's styles makes fights and more than anything. I know
I've said this before and I'm repeating myself, but offseason

(11:31):
is that time of year where you repeat yourself. It's
hard to do any of that when it comes to
the cast because the team we saw in the playoffs
is not their best shot. It's not how good they
can look. But you know what, we've talked so much
about the playoffs. I want to do a little bit
of recapping of this season, and we're going to start
things off with the guards for the Cleveland Cavaliers, And

(11:54):
you know me, I like to start with the bright side,
So I want to go with what went well this season.
The group of players will be discussed in today, Darius Garland,
Donovan Mitchell, Ricky Rubio, and how will netto Carter. I'll
let you kick things off with Darius. What went well
for Darius in your eyes this season? I feel like
he had no learning curve next to Mitchell. I feel

(12:15):
like that is the number one thing. Is he kind
of he kind of figured out how to maintain his
efficiency and his impact from last season, you know, while
incorporating a high volume backcourt partner. And maybe it was
the reps with Colin Sexton over the years. Maybe it's

(12:35):
just because he's super smart and you know, and could
figure it out. But I thought the fact that his
numbers mostly stayed the same year over year was wildly encouraging.
You know. I think sometimes people when you hear about growth,
you expect to see, you know, the points kind of

(12:57):
going up every year on the line graph. But I
think when you consider all the context around the team,
the fact that he did maintain where he was was
super exciting. And then he also added a little bit
of high you know, volume variants. You know, he dropped
a couple fifty burgers this year, which I never thought
he would be that kind of player. So I just

(13:19):
feel like, don't make me remind you. I know, so
I think that you know, I think the wide angle
well went well. And I know you've got a lot
of great stats that I'll let you rattle off because
you actually prep for this podcast. But I just feel
like it's the you know, the fact that he was
able to maintain while also finding opportunities to reach new

(13:40):
heights individually. And I think it's so interesting that the
transition was as smooth as it was given how rocky
the start was. Right like you know, getting poked in
the eye by Gary turn Junior. I think maybe that
helped Mitchell more than anything, kind of get get to
know the teammates, get a little comfortable. And then Darius
his game is so malleable you could just throw him

(14:01):
into any lineup and he knows what he needs to do.
And you look at the year over your year stats,
Like you said, the points per game pretty much the same.
If you look per thirty six, they're up just a
tad reduce his turnover percentage from sixteen point three percent
to thirteen point five percent. Of players to average over
seven and a half assists per game, only Chris Paul

(14:21):
and Tyrese Halliburn average fewer turnovers. That's a great stat
justin I think the eye test on his defense improved
as well. We had talked last year about seeing improvement
individually and kind of his consistent compete level on that end,
and I thought he did a good job as an
on ball defender or as good as you can expect

(14:44):
for someone of his stature, and that's reflected in the
numbers as well. There is no perfect defensive stats when
it comes to catch alls, but longtime listeners of this
podcast do know that I like EPM. His defense of
EPM improved from plus zero point two to plus zero
point eight, which is sixty four percentile to eightieth, which
I mean, you're never going to expect him to be

(15:06):
a large impact guy. But if you can go from
break even to you know, slight positive and situational positive,
I think that that's a really big step. I thought
he played good defense this year and you know, career
best efficiency fifty eight point seven true shooting percentage. Given
everything that he went through this year, from the eye injury,
to the injury to his shooting hand, to the flues

(15:29):
that seem to hit this team all season long, I'll
say what, this team had the flu for a cool
three months. We really need to get an honor immune
system boost. And I don't know if it's on the
what the deal is, Yeah, get a good head trainer,
Steve Swuerro some emergency and just start mixing that into

(15:50):
the gator. I'm pretty sure that stuff doesn't work. You
know what, I fall for all. I still take it anyway.
You know, I feel cold, Come on, you'll do anything. Oh,
I start housing cold effects. I start having those Gatorade lights,
PDA light. I'm hydrating like crazy, man. I do everything
to avoid that. But you know what, overall, I think

(16:12):
what you said is the most important thing. The transition
was so smooth with him. It didn't His growth this
year didn't come at the expense of anybody else. We
saw Evan Mobiley improve, we saw Donovan Mitchell improve. Like
I just continue to think that this is such a
perfect point guard to build around in today's game because

(16:32):
of the way that you can add all sorts of
talent around him, and his game isn't going to suffer.
And the hardest thing to do in the NBA is
to acquire talent. Sometimes you have to make weird fits work,
and Darius Garland has a game that just adapts to
all of those situations. That makes the team building process
so much easier. Yeah. One thing I do think, you know,

(16:53):
we might get poked on from less positive listeners is
the idea that, yeah, the defense was better, but he
still got torched by Brunson in the postseason, and you know,
I think I think this is one spot where we
are pretty aligned that Like, I watched those games really closely,

(17:14):
and Brunson certainly got some buckets on him. But I
thought he did fine on Brunson. I don't think. I
don't think Brunson had a parade of easy shots and
and wide open layups where Darius was getting wiped out
on screens. I thought he stayed connected. I thought he
played physically. He's obviously not as strong as Brunson, but

(17:34):
you know, I thought he made him work as hard as,
you know, as hard as anyone not named Isaac Wilcorro
in that series. And U So I'm gonna complain emitively.
I'm going to pre eminently say that I think it
did hold up in the postseason. I don't think this
was a thing where, you know, it's easy to be
a good regular season defender because no one's hunting you.

(17:56):
But I thought I thought, even when he was hunted
in the postseason, he held up Mark, you know reasonably. Well.
I know a lot of the numbers don't necessarily represent that.
And what that's why you know, every now and again
you have to go eye test and kind of decide
does this align with what I think I'm seeing on
the court. You know, points per possession on individual matchups

(18:18):
in the postseason series are so noisy, so it kind
of comes down, Yes, it matters, But also I do
think there is a degree of which, you know, you
have to evaluate your own basketball belief system to determine that.
So if you don't think Darius played good defense on
Jalen Bronson the postseason, you know, I won't, like, I

(18:40):
won't defend it to the death. The numbers are on
your side. But I thought he did okay, and okay,
was good enough to you know, to win a series.
In my opinion, they just they just dropped the ball
in other areas. Yeah, I completely agree. And as you've
pointed out, Jalen Bruntson played better against the Miami Heat.
He put up much better numbers, and I agree, I

(19:03):
think Darius stayed with him.

Speaker 1 (19:04):
Well.

Speaker 2 (19:05):
My only like beef with kind of those coverages was
stop sending so much extra help, right, Like, no, don't
have Jared Allen come out there. Just play it straight
up live with Jalen Brunson hitting tough shots and he
is a tough shot maker. Right, like Darius did stick
with him. He did contest. I think Ocral's really the
only guy that's physical enough and has the stature to

(19:26):
disrupt the rhythm of Jalen Brunson, and he really deter
shots in those ways. But if you're talking about sticking
with guys, it wasn't like he was giving him the
clear path to the basket. So I completely agree there.
Next up, Donovan Mitchell, Man freaking Donnie. Donnie went me
over this season, and honestly, I was down on his postseason. Obviously,

(19:49):
he struggled against the New York Knicks, and we've talked
about that a fair bit, but the discourse has shifted
so dramatically when it comes to Donovan Mitchell that I'm like,
all the way back, my my cape is back on,
because I think people are overlooking just how great he
was this season career best in points per game, career
best inefficiency, tied for his career best three point percentage

(20:12):
defensive EPM again plus zero point two, so sixty fifth
percentile up from fortieth. Best he's had since twenty nineteen.
He was a plus one point five and twenty eighteen
as a rookie, which is insane, that's really really good
and plus zero point five and twenty nineteen, But after that,
he had been a negative in every single year of
his career. So for him to get up to that

(20:33):
slight plus on the defensive end, and you know, we
saw possessions where he really was going out there and
making plays, being an event defender, and I thought that's
what he was best at. But for him to improve
his contributions on both ends of the floor and be
such a seamless fit with the Cavs, I thought that
that was a really, really hell of a season and

(20:53):
deserving of All NBA. Really, he should have been All
NBA first Team. Stop rewarding teams that didn't even make
the playoffs. Couldn't agree more on the last point, But
I didn't realize it was his first All NBA appearance
of his career, And you know, I thought he did
improve in meaningful ways year over year in this season.

(21:14):
I thought he really demonstrated a lot of skills that
I didn't think he had in him, in terms of
the way he was playing defensively, in terms of the
three point efficiency, not just the shot making and the volume.
I mean, he was just an absolute killer in catch

(21:34):
and shoots all year. I think that his you know,
his ability to finish above the rim. I just didn't
realize how much the Calves had been missing something like
that until they had it. I thought his playmaking was great,
and like he won the Calves four or five games

(21:56):
they just wouldn't have won with volume scoring. Over the
course of the game, the guy scored seventy one in
a game that where the Cavs needed every single one
of those seventy one. Obviously, the playoffs were not the
way you wanted to end, but like, I just think
that he also found a way to fit next to

(22:18):
Garland right away and you know so much. This was
one of the big concerns I had in the aftermath
of the trade was when you're a guy that year
over year, your team starts building your offense more and
more and more and more around you, and to accommodate you,

(22:38):
you sometimes guys get comfortable and even and I mean,
we've seen it with Harden, we've seen it with with Westbrook,
we might be seeing it with Luca. Where it when
you get to when you get to control the ball
whenever you want, on every possession, it's really hard to
go back to being like, well, Darius is going to

(23:00):
run the next five sets. And you know I said
this a few times over the course of the year,
but I do think it is reflective of the kinds
of dudes this team has. But you didn't see a
lot of possessions where both Darius and Donnie were running
to get the ball to take it up court. You know,
there wasn't this little push pull and like, while obviously

(23:24):
Darius gets a lot of credit because this was kind
of his offense to run last year, Donovan came in supernova.
He could have just you know, staked his claim and
said I'm running the offense every time it matters, no
matter what. And he didn't do that. So I thought
he was a much more selfless player than I thought
we were going to get. And even in the playoffs,

(23:45):
like when things weren't going well, like he I think
his game and his decision making it dropped off at times,
but it didn't feel like he was like, none of
this is working, I'm just going to take every single
shot here. And maybe that would have been a benefit
of times, but it seemed like he was still committed
to trying to make things worth to try to keep

(24:05):
Darius involved, to try to keep Mobilely involved, and even
though it was a team wide failure in that way,
he was still kind of committed to making the thing work,
which I thought spoke well of kind of his whole
approach to do this Cleveland situation. Yeah, he was awesome.
And I know you have a lot of great Darius

(24:26):
Donnie stats and I'd like you just to cue you up. Well, yeah,
I mean, if you're talking about what well, well this season,
the partnership went really well. They had all these stats
are courtesy of cleaning the glass. So again, no garbage
time factored into them not rating together plus eight point
nine one nineteen point seven offensive rating, which is just phenomenal.

(24:50):
They were a plus two point nine in the minutes
with Donovan Mitchell no Garland, plus six point three in
the Garland Mitchell minutes with no Mitchell twenty two. The
Cavs were plus thirteen point nine points better with Garland
off the court. On the court, I should say, which
was obviously one of the big talking points of that season, right,

(25:11):
is they were killing it in the Garland minutes and
when he went to the bench there was nothing there.
Largely impacted by losing Colin Sexton, losing Ricky Rubio, but
they needed that secondary ball handling and carrosel Vert. Even
though he had moments that he wasn't as consistent as
what we got from Donovan Mitchell, they helped reduce that

(25:32):
Garland bump from thirteen point nine to plus five point eight,
which again feather in the capadarius Garland that he moved
the needle that much, but it's nice to see that
that drop off wasn't as dramatic. This was also the
first time in three years that Mitchell was on a
team where the team was better with him on the court.
That was one of the kind of the criticisms and

(25:53):
hesitations that we had talking about Donno Mitchell was, Hey,
this is a guy that's only had one season of
league average efficiency. This is a guy who last two years,
even though he was doing so much offensively, the team
was better with him off the court. You're kind of
in that Demarta rosen mold. That wasn't the case this year.
The Caves were two point one points better with him
on the court.

Speaker 1 (26:12):
Though.

Speaker 2 (26:13):
It was really encouraging to see that the partnership work.
They both made each other better and while they were
making each other better. The team benefited from that, and
the team as a whole was better, which is exactly
what you would have wanted from this partnership. Absolutely, I
do want to talk about the Mitchell no Garland minutes
because I think some people might hear that stat and say, oh, well,

(26:35):
Garland was better than Mitchell this season, and you're I
guess you're allowed to have that opinion. But I do
think something that is really reflected in that stat the
fact that you know it's Mitchell plus two point nine
when he's on the floor and Garland is resting. I
think that was really reflective of the kind of players

(26:56):
that were on the floor in those minutes that I
think the Cavs really need to look to address this offseason. Obviously,
spacing really matters, and the most important part of Donovan
on and Darius off is the best shooter on the
team is sitting and he is often being replaced with
shaky or inconsistent perimeter shooters, while the front court shooting

(27:17):
is not really improving meaningfully no matter how those those
pieces are moved around. So I think Donovan had to
carry a lot of lineups that were not optimal on
the offensive end of the ball when Darius sat and
like Darius also missed more time too, right, Like those

(27:37):
were highest dress, really heavy load on Donovan's shoulders minutes. Yep,
And I think like that's why a player like that's
why this deadline. I was pining for a guy like
Lukenard because it was like, man, I just see Donovan
have to work in such tight spaces when Darius sits,
and if you're going to stagger those guys, which you
need to, they're not going to get as many and

(28:00):
it's together as they otherwise would. So I feel like
the Cavs need to kind of find ways to juice
those minutes that it's just Donnie without Darius on the floor,
and then all of a sudden, you know, you look
at a fifty one win team and they could really
take another huge jump, especially in the regular season. Yeah,

(28:21):
I completely agree, and I'm really happy that you brought
that up, because I do think he is reflective of
the players around him, and you know, early in the
season when it was the two of them, there was
experimenting because the whole kind of thesis of making this
core work is you're going to have one of the
guards and one of the bigs on the court at
all times, right, Like, we know they're all good together.
But early in the season, I remember it was Donovan

(28:42):
Mitchell and Evan Mobley trying to see, okay, do these
guys have a two men game going Later in the year,
they found that it was better to have Jared Allen
out there. He's the better screener, really kind of helps
open up Donovan Mitchell. And when Evan Mobley was having
that awesome second half of the season that he had
a lot of it came Garland Mobile minutes against second
units were killers. With Garland and Mobile on the court,

(29:07):
with no Allen and no Mitchell, it was a plus
eleven point nine net rating, Like they just killed it
this season. And finding those guys that have the right
chemistry with Donovan that you can have these second and
third units that really put the pressure on opposing teams
and help increase your margin for error and open up,
you know, like give the opportunity to rest these guys more. Like,

(29:31):
I think that that is really really important. And the
lack of lineup versatility and other options to go to
was definitely one of the things that we saw kill
the Cats in the postseason. Absolutely, I want to before
we talk about things to improve. I think we got
to hit our duo backup point guards and Ricky, Rubio

(29:52):
and Howell innetto in terms of what went well. Yeah,
so for Ricky. And this is funny because I think
back to even media where there was the concession on
media Day that Ricky's impact is probably going to be
more off court in year one because this is going
to be something that he's recovering from all season. It

(30:12):
was tough. You know, he did not have a good season.
I know you had trepidations about the signing and it
did not work out on court this season. The real
positive is that he didn't have an injury set back
right Like another injury to that leg would have been
devastating and would have impacted the ability for him to

(30:32):
maybe come back and have a bounce back next year.
So from that standpoint, I think that was the biggest
positive for Ricky Ruby. And when it comes to how
Old Nettle, I liked his minutes, man. I thought he
was competitive on the defensive end. I thought he stepped in.
I would have actually liked to see him a little
bit more than we did this season, even just to
get the rotation comfortable with having another point guard coming

(30:54):
in for when Ricky eventually came in. I would have
liked to see a few more Nettle minutes, but from
a backup point guard perspective, especially on a team that
has Darius, that has Donovan and even Caris who can
kind of do some of those guard duties, I liked
what how Will Netto gave them this season. Yeah, I
think a part of the narrative of this Cavs season

(31:15):
is the fact that the Calves did have a lot
of guys on ross response that they did not end
up really trusting or were unable to rye on them
in the postseason. I do not think how Will Netto
applies here. I think he did everything you know you
should ask out of a third point guard on a team.
He came in, gave good minutes both off the bench,

(31:37):
and did he have any spots starts? I don't. I
don't recall a couple, but I feel like whenever he
was always ready, and he flipped a couple games. In
terms of being an irritant or energizing the rest of
the team, he is he was just an amazing defender.

(31:58):
I thought he's finishing at the rim was really really
strong this year, you know, because he's not a shooter.
He's just not. He had a few threes here and there,
but that clearly isn't part of his game, which you know,
I do think if the team is going all in
on shooting this summer, you know that that could be
a challenging spot for how Well, despite all the other

(32:19):
great things he brings to the team. But I just
think you need a guy who's going to be a
great practice, guy who is always ready, who can be
relied on to, you know, like and we talked about
it with the playoffs right now, there are role players
right now that are flipping games now. Hollo obviously didn't
do that in the postseason, but he did in the
regular season quite a few times. And you know, all

(32:44):
you can ask for is what he gave them this year.
And to your point, I think they could have played
him a little bit more. With Ricky, I feel like
I have to just kind of agree the fact that
he did have a few moments where he kind of
had that verve back where he was hitting the corner
threes where he was getting the team run little bit.
But I mean it was a really hard half year

(33:04):
for Ricky Rubio. There's just no way around it. Well,
we'll talk more about it in the what needs to
improve section, But like the fact that he didn't aggravate
the fact that he didn't he played free. He didn't
play great, but he did play. He didn't play afraid.
And you know, I know these aren't the most outstanding wins,

(33:25):
but like you have to, you have to kind of
work your way up slowly when you have, you know,
a devastating the injury like that, especially for the second
time in one name M. I totally agree. And if
you saw me looking a little sick while you were
talking there, it's because I realized, even as someone that
really prides himself on his ability to prep for a podcast,
there was something I overlooked when we're discussing well this season,

(33:49):
and that is, of course the video conferencing we get
from Zoom support from this podcast, and the following message
comes from Zoom. Half a million businesses connect using Zoom,
a single platform for phone chat worksplaces of appsent video.
Zoom enables real time collaboration for teams around the globe.
Zoom how the world connects. Now I'm the one that sick. Well,

(34:09):
we'll work on that, Carter, just like these guards will
work on their games going into next season. We won't
go into how will Netto just because you know, he's
not under contract with the Cavs going into next year,
so we'll stick with Mitchell, Garland and Rubio. And I'm
curious because this is the one that I had the
most trouble with when it came to Donald Mitchell, where
would you like to see improvement with him? You know,

(34:33):
it was so hard because he just feels like such
a maximized player and the stuff that made the postseason
hard was just like, you know, it's stuff that's like
really hard to be, like get better, you know, get
better at not turning the ball over when like don't

(34:55):
have a few bad games here, Like don't miss the
shots you normally make, right, Like that's not actually constructive. Yeah,
And I guess I guess, like what I'm hoping is,
you know, I think people forget that this guy's young too.
You know, he's not an old player. Even though he's
old for as compared to the rest of the Cabs,

(35:15):
He's still only twenty six years old himself. And I
feel like all Donovan needs to do. The skill game
is all there. The handle is unbelievable, the finishing with
both hands very very good. He's got a great pull
up both from mid range and from three. He makes
you know, he's not an elite passer, but he makes
the reads that are there. I feel like the thing

(35:40):
he needs to get better at is the thing that
every great player needs to get better as just being
a little more situation proof, is figuring out what made
his life so hard in that next series and figuring
out some more counters to it. And a lot of
those counters are not you know, It's not like a

(36:01):
bullet point on a rundown that I can just put in.
It's like feel the game a little better, figure out
how to make kind of the subtle movements to free
yourself and some of that. And it's all so interdependent
on scheme, on spacing, on everything. So I don't have

(36:23):
a good answer for what Donovan needs to get better at.
I just think he just needs to keep getting better
at basketball, like all great young players do. Yeah, it's
funny because maybe maybe this is my fault in how
I label this, which is where would we like to
see improvement, whereas where I'd like to see kind of
growth in his game, which I guess is another way

(36:44):
you could say improvement, But like what I would like
to see from growth is him continuing to do what
he does in terms of being that play finisher and
being a chaotic defender, being that guy that hits the
tough shots for the Cavs and they rely on in
those spots. Doing that while also continuing to give more

(37:05):
and more reps to both Darius Garland and Evan Mobley.
I'm understanding that these guys are going to need to
be initiators in order for us to get to the
highest level. And I think, no matter what we talk
about how Evan Mobley probably needs to be the best
player on the team if the Cavs are going to
be a contender, I think that Donovan's still probably going

(37:29):
to be the leading scorer on that team. Evan Mobley
might be the best player on the team and the
third best offensive player on the team right Like, I
don't when I think of an optimized Evan Mobley, I'm
not thinking of someone that's going out averaging twenty five
thirty points per game. I'm thinking of a guy that
impacts the game in so many ways that you really
have to kind of watch and appreciate it to fully

(37:51):
understand what's going on. But I do think, and I
know I said this on the last podcast, but I
think the team runs at its best when Garland has
the ball in his hands and he's being assertive. So
Donovan continuing to empower him as a leader to be
that way, right. That was such a big story of
Game two was Donovan being in Darius's ear telling him,
this is what we need from you in order to

(38:11):
beat the Knicks, and they came out with such a
dominant performance. Continuing to improve it as a leader in
that way, empowering both Darius and Evan Mobiley while still
maintaining that aggressiveness and what made him an All NBA player,
because I still want him to be that leading play finisher.
I still want him going out there and having the
big games because he's a truly, truly special offensive talent. Yeah,

(38:34):
I think the only the only like practical adjustment is
one that I'm I'm gonna throw at Darius's feet too,
which is dude's got to play faster. Both of both
Darius and Donnie really like to to walk it up
and probe, and like, they got to get this team's

(38:54):
pace up. They are the kings of settling, you know,
passing up good shots and the perfection of perfect shots
and dribbling just a little bit too much in not
starting the set till the thirteen second mark on the
shot clock, And like, I feel like these two dudes

(39:17):
are going to set the tone there for the rest
of the team and they will never play at the
pace that they need to play if both Donovan and
Darius are not egging each other on to get into
their sets quicker. Again, this is not run fast breaks NonStop.
This is run into your sets, flow into your sets,

(39:40):
bark at your teammates if they're jogging into the sets,
like both of them as play starters, need to do that.
So that's a Darius note and Adnovan note, and like
that is one practical thing where I'm like, hey, like
you have to see how this is hampering what y'all
are trying to do, and it's just needed and at
this level you just can't have self imposed wounds. So

(40:04):
I feel like that probably transitions as well into Darius.
But yeah, I feel like the pace gauntlet has to
be thrown at Donnie's feet too. Yeah, I completely agree.
And it's funny like the Cavs thirtieth in pace, right,
do you know what it would take? How many more
possessions per one hundred possessions they would need to jump
up to get to like twelfth in pace? Carter Nope? Four? Wow,

(40:27):
Like that's the difference. Like the NBA teams, there's not
a massive variance when it comes to the you know,
the pace stats that they have, but just getting up there,
or like you said, if you are starting all possessions
earlier in the shot clock, non necessarily being a fast
break and running gun team, you can change those pace

(40:49):
numbers really easily. And that's that is something that they
have left on the table and I would like to
see them improve. Maybe some of that comes from all
three levels, right, it's Darius and Donovan understand that they
need to up the pace themselves, it's JB continuing to
kind of emphasize that, and it comes on the front
office to say, we're going to add the depth this summer.

(41:09):
We're going to give you the supporting cast so that
you don't feel like you have to conserve energy. We're
going to get quicker subs we're going to have multiple
functional lineups so that we don't have to rely on
you in these big games against better teams, in these
heavy minute loads. Because I think, honestly, and this is
something that I probably if I knew we were going here,

(41:30):
maybe I could look it up somehow. But I feel
like when they play better competition, they play slower because
they're playing more minutes all those possessions, they're valuing them differently,
Whereas when they would play lesser teams, when they were
playing lottery teams or teams below them in the standings,
they played a little faster, they played a little looser,
and even at home they play faster and looser. And

(41:51):
I think that's why you see the crunch time numbers
look so much better. So I do think that it's
something that maybe it needs to be emphasized at all
three levels, but I could not I would love some Yeah,
something that jumped out at me. There is you kind
of saying that you know they value those possessions more,
And I agree, And what I would tell them is, hey,

(42:14):
by walking the ball up and trying to survey your
surroundings and slowing it down, you're actually valuing them less.
You're valuing your time less and you just don't get
to do that against good teams, against good defenses. And
this team was really good at winning rock fights, and

(42:35):
that's great, but they have the talent to win in
multiple ways, and I think it is much more about
mindset than personnel sometimes, and I think they can do it.
I think moving on to Darius' improvements, his three point
attempts per thirty six dropped year over year. Took six

(42:57):
point seven threes per thirty six last year, six point
one this year. And now you might be saying, hey,
Donovan Mitchell's here, He's gonna get less shots. His usage
point his usage percentage only dropped about a percent, which
means he just wasn't taking as many threes. Yeah, and
he probably had more. I don't have the numbers in

(43:17):
front of me for this right now, but I would
surmise he had way more open threes generated for him
this year than he did last year. And you just can't,
like I feel. I just feel like when you look
at the math, the simple addition, because as much as
we say basketball is an algebra, it's not just the

(43:40):
sum of your parts. Sometimes it is a sum. It's
a some of how many three point attempts your team
gets up and if if they if they're starting someone
like Isaac, Evan and Jarrett in the front court, you
might get in a in an average game, three to
four three pointer attempts from them, and you know, if
you're playing a guy like Kris or Jetty or Dean Wade,

(44:05):
you might get another five or six from there. So
you got about ten. That means, Darius and don you
got to get another twenty to get you two to
thirty three point attempts, which is a very reasonable average
attempt number in the modern league. So you just don't
get to take three threes or four threes in a
playoff game. Darius, like, you have to pull, You have

(44:28):
to set the tone because the whole floor is gonna
shrink with the personnel this team has. Like it as
much as people want to talk about the way two
bigs cramps the spacing, and you know, there are people
who remain very skeptical that the offense can work at

(44:48):
a playoff level playing two bigs, Well, it certainly isn't
going to work if they don't shoot enough threes in
the back court. But this is a this is a
backcourt that is so well equipped to be volume three
point shooters. So Darius must improve his three point attempt volume,
even at the even at the expense of some percentage points.
I just feel like it's it's very very important and

(45:12):
uh and as great as he was last year. That
like that, just that, just like it's a it's a
big glaring red mark on his basketball reference page. To me, yeah,
it's it's the number one thing, like his three point
percentage career best three point percentage. That to me just

(45:33):
screams that you shot nearly forty two percent from three.
You didn't take enough, you were you're taking only good shots.
And I know he's not taking only good shots. He's
hit plenty of crazy pull ups. He's he's a ridiculous scorer.
But he needs to take more. Like someone needs to
be the Draymond Green to Kevin Durant and just tell him, like,
you are a badass. You are that guy. You need

(45:55):
to be assertive, you need like it's I get it,
it's what you want from a point guard. He understands
that I do have talent around me. I want to
get all these guys involved. He's a selfless player, right
like that's I think that's even translates to how he
performs on the defensive end right, Like he's giving effort,
He's trying to be a winning player in every way,
but taking more of those threes, being more assertive is

(46:18):
going to open up more opportunities for everybody else. And
the way that teams panic when they close out on
steph they break right now, Darius is a tech is
beating one man off the dribble and then attacking a
said defense. The teams will go under on him sometimes. Yeah,
that should never ever happen for a guy that's as

(46:40):
talented as he is as a scorer, and that's because
they know he's looking to pass first in so many
of these situations and he needs to keep those defenses. Honest,
I think that is the like beyond the pace, If
I had to change one thing, it's getting that three
point rate up because I think his ability to you know,
cut down on his turnover, improve on the defensive end,

(47:01):
Like he is improving in every single facet of his game,
and I think what can take him from the level
he's currently at, which I think is a clear All
Star talent even though he didn't make it this year.
I think what can take him from an All Star
talent to an All NBA talent is upping that three
point rate, is you know, scoring at that level, because

(47:22):
it's not going to change a lot with this team.
Like we saw down the stretch, Evan Mobley was a
nineteen point per game player, Darius was getting his twenty two,
Donovan was getting his twenty five right like, it's not
going to change the team dynamics. It's not going to
stunt the growth of Evan Mobley. It's not going to
hurt Donovan's game. If he's taking if more of his
shots are coming from the three point line, it is

(47:43):
going to help this team. And I think it's one
of the most obvious ways for them to raise their
offense as a whole is by him being more consistently assertive.
Darius with four to five feet of space should be
a panic inducing moment for the defense until it is
there will be a ceiling on this offense playing with

(48:06):
two bigs and maybe you know a semi shooter or
in a guy like Kris Slavert or or a guy
who isn't guarded in isaaca a quoro, like the only
way to break those kind of conventions is to be
so elite in the backcourt that you overwhelm it. That's
what we've seen with the Warriors year over year, So

(48:29):
that that's those are my those are my improvements for
those guys. And then for Ricky, you know, it's just
a matter of like, hey, you're gonna have to be
able to hit open threes again, and you're gonna need
to find ways to You're gonna need to take those
volume threes and and force teams to guard you. And really,

(48:50):
if anything, I feel like this is a spot for
JB and the coaching staff to improve in my opinion,
obviously not knowing all the context, you just can't guarantee
him minutes. I agree. I feel like he is one
guy that like he came back. He's so well loved,
he's such a great leader that he got rotation minutes

(49:14):
when I do not think he had a better on
court product season than how well, I know, yeah, he
got he got minutes based on upside and what he
had done the previous year, trying to get that back
rather than the merits of his actual season. I think
that's that's fair to say. Yeah, And I feel like
it left the Calves in a really bad you know,
talking about having how everything you do has to lead

(49:38):
to the postseason. They burned all these reps and minutes
on Rubio that and then it became very clear that
he could not hang in the next series. Uh, and
he even got minutes in that series. Whereas you know,
we talked about in our last pot about how Jetty
Osmond was guarding one point guard for the first time

(50:00):
I'm all season in game one of the postseason, Like
you have to give Jety that if you're gonna get
if you're gonna do that, those kind of things, you
need to make sure you're giving minutes the guys who
are earning them in the regular season. So so you
can kind of figure your way out of these tough situations, because, yeah,
he just had a rough year, and I certainly don't

(50:22):
feel like the Calves can count on him to be
a rotation player in the playoffs next year until he
proves otherwise. So I don't want to I don't want
to dogpile the guy. I mean, yeah, we get we
get what he can do, right, we get it. And
by the way, the Caves told us. The Cavs told
us this, Uh, they signed Ricky before Donovan was traded
for They weren't expecting to have to win a first

(50:45):
round series or it would be very disappointing. And it
was later on in free agency, right, it was Okay,
Joe Ingles has gone, Kyle Anderson's gone, all these guys
are gone, Let's bring back Ricky. Let's like the thought
process of having Ricky Rue as someone that could nor
Daris Garland and call In Sexton made a lot of sense, right, Like,

(51:06):
that's that was the team building the part of the
team building process that they were at at the time
of the signing, and that's not something that should be overlooked.
And like the I think the biggest thing with Ricky
from an improvement standpoint is just continue to get physically
right Chrispy Orris mentioned, you know, potentially playing with Spain
this summer to help get back in shape to knock

(51:26):
off some of that Russ, Like, I understand the thought
process of playing him based on that upside, because we've
seen that upside in a cash jersey. We know the
difference that he can make. But it's it's going to
be an uphill climb for a player of his age
coming off multiple acl Taiars like this, this is going
to be hard, But I do think that he is

(51:47):
a cerebral enough player that he can adapt his game
if he's physically right, I think he can adapt his
game to be a productive player for the CAZI in
the minutes that they need, which really isn't a lot
when you have Darius, Donovan and even Karris Lavert if
he is back with the team. Yeah. Absolutely, let's go

(52:07):
into our grades, Carter. I'm just going to rifle them
off here. I don't think we need to spend too
much time explaining our grades.

Speaker 1 (52:13):
Darius.

Speaker 2 (52:14):
I'm giving him an A minus. I always struggle with grades.
I was never won that got high grades, So I
give I'm one that is probably a little generous on these.
Ricky C. I felt, you know, he's fine, net O B.
Given the kind of the expectations I had for his role,

(52:34):
I thought he contributed well. I was very happy with
him and Donnie and A like Donnie was awesome this
season all NBA. I think I think A plus is
too hard to give to almost any player that's not
in like that top five Nikola Jokic type tier. But
I feel good about giving Donnie an a Where are
you at? Darius? I went with an A minus. Just

(52:58):
a really great continent season for him year over a year.
But you know a few things that jump out of
you that you go, you know, that keep you from
going all the way Ruby, I went to C minus.
But honestly, I think I'm grading on a curve there.
I think I'm being I think it's because of the
fact that he's coming off the injury and what was
fair to expect of him. I think the Encore product

(53:20):
was probably worse than that, to be honest, but like
you have to, you know, I feel like I needed
to contextualize it, and I went with a C minus.
Netto I went with a bee just you know, perfect
pass passing group. You know, that's a three point zero
GPA man, and he I think he gave perfectly acceptable
play for his role and happy with the be Donnie,

(53:43):
I went with a A minus and I kind of feel
like I'm being mean Dick, given that he was, you know,
should have been first team All NBA. But a big
part of the reason you trade for Donovan Mitchell is
because he is a playoff player, you know, OP ten
all time points per game in the postseason and he
had a bad playoff series. I really only think he

(54:06):
had one good game. He had a couple okay games
in there, but really only one good one. And when
you compare it to his standard, Yes, when you give
up three first round picks and a couple of swaps
and three really good young players that your organization likes,
I think you are. I think the bar raises for

(54:26):
a guy like Donnie and one one objectively good game
is insufficient. So it's one of those things where he
you know, he tripped up at the finish line. I
think it would have been an a plus if not
for the way the postseason went. But I feel like
you got to dock him a little bit, so someone
with a name minus. I think that's fair. The final

(54:47):
segment before we wrap this thing up is does this
position group the Cavs guards? Does this need to be
addressed in the offseason? And I mean, I think that
comes down to one central question, which is do the
need a backup point guard? Like in general, because I
think the minutes are always going to be split with
Darius and Donovan. In all likelihood, Ricky is going to

(55:08):
be back. He's under contract for next season. We'll see
what's available in the sign and trade market. But I
just don't feel like a big need to have a
backup point guard. I think you'd likely still kind of
sign a third point guard to be in that netle role.
I obviously would love to have Nettle back, but I
just don't know if that'll be in the cards. I

(55:29):
don't feel a sense of urgency here because you have Darius,
you have Donovan. I think the wing positions need to
be prioritized because you can even have Caris do some
of these playmaker responsibilities. I just I don't feel like
there is a need for the cast to really address
the guard positions this season. Well yeah, I think the
answer kind of depends on how they attack this offseason.

(55:50):
You know, if Kris is retained, then all of a sudden,
it gets a lot easier to say, no, we don't
really need to double down our investment when we're already
investing than Ricky. We already have Darius, Donnie and Karris
who can play point guard. We can play a little
bit bigger, give ourselves some positional versatility. You know, you
don't want to like spend bi annual exception money or
more mid level exception money at point guard when you've

(56:13):
already invest in Ricky. I think that'd be kind of
doubling down and also making kind of precluding Ricky from
being able to show what you signed him for. So
I don't think they'll go with a big splash unless
they make some roster moves that really make that an
obvious choice. But I do think they should look for

(56:35):
a slightly higher upside young player at the position. You know,
you look at a guy like Aaron Holliday who has
kind of bounced around and shown some stuff, but you know,
been a little hit and missed. You look at a
guy like Kobe White. You know, maybe they try to
second draft someone at the position that doesn't necessarily inherently

(56:58):
deserve a rotation, or maybe they use their second round pick.
I mean, I think it's I think it's nim Hard.
I always forget the guy's name in Indiana who was
a second round pick against Zaga, you know, big, big
bodied point guard that really looked really good for them.
So I think that's the way I'd like to see
them kind of pursue. I think they should look to

(57:20):
add an archetype that works for them, a scale that
works for them. You know someone who can. How do
you feel about Seriff Cooper with the charge, Like maybe
you know, potential candidate for a two way spot. Do
you find him interesting enough to kind of fall into
that mold. Maybe his shooting splits in the G League

(57:41):
scare me a little bit. They're not great, and typically
if you're not putting up good splits in the G league,
it's hard to get them in the NBA. That's where
I'm at with him, you know, shooting under thirty two
percent from three forty three percent from the field. Like,
I think he's a special passer, and I think like
his basketball Q is high enough that like I like

(58:02):
having him around and I like having him in the system,
But I mean outside of a two way spot, I
just wouldn't feel I like, like you said, the efficiency
just isn't at the level. And obviously you know he
is a little smaller when it comes to scizet that
he's not contributing on the defensive end. So yeah, it's
I don't know if I would go with an NBA
contract for him, but you know, continuing to develop someone

(58:24):
like I think vision like that and the passing he
has isn't something that you can necessarily teach, So I
get why you would try to continue to develop that talent,
but I think that the three point shot is probably
the one thing holding him back in my eyes, Yeah,
I think so too. So you know, if they decide
to take a shot on him, I think they know

(58:46):
him better than I'm gonna know. So but yeah, I
think I think they will sign another point guard. It's
just a matter of you know, are they going to
go with a wily vet or are they going to
go with someone with maybe a younger that's a little
bit higher upside. I gut like Dwayne Washington Junior, who
I think has shown some good minutes here and there,

(59:06):
and like just you know, those are some names that
you can kind of pull out of a hat. You know,
you're not going to hit a home run with your
third point guard most of the time. So it'll be
interesting to see how they invest in that position. Yeah,
it's gonna be interesting, but you know, it's it does
feel good now we have such a strong one two
punch when it comes to the guards. I'm already getting impatient. Man,

(59:27):
I want more Kaz basketball. I want to see what
I want to see what this off season looks like,
I want to see what next year looks like. I'm
I'm itching, I'm feeding. I can't wait for it. I
just brother, I just check the box score and now
it's Lakers Lebron is twenty seven with five minutes left
in the second quarter. He had twenty one in the first.
That's awesome. We should probably run over and start watching that.

(59:51):
But Carter, this is this is a historic podcast because
you know why why this is the last time we're
going to podcast before the Winnipeg ce Stop Baby Bear
non seats underway. We're going to get Sea Bears updates.
They already opening night, Carter cebl history for the largest

(01:00:11):
crowd in league history, sold out. Winnipeg knows ball justin
they know ball sold out, already expanding, adding extra seats,
getting more people in, butts in seats. We're going to
be getting updates, probably not a lot of time. That's
maybe just a little too self indulgent, but I'm excited

(01:00:32):
to at least get something we don't do at least
sixty seconds spot. I'm never gonna forgive you. Okay, well
we'll stick to that and hopefully our listeners don't hate us.
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(01:00:53):
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