December 24, 2025 • 54 mins
The most dangerous abusers aren’t always loud. Sometimes they appear kind, generous, and adored—until the door closes. In this episode, Ingrid sits down with Mia Hanks, author and survivor of covert narcissistic abuse, to unpack life with a narcissist: from the dizzying highs of love bombing to the slow drain of gaslighting, blame-shifting, and identity erasure.
Mia shares practical tools for recognizing abuse, why couples therapy can backfire, and how to safely plan a low-contact exit. She also explores the messy, hopeful work of rebuilding: reclaiming your voice, making independent choices, and finding freedom after abuse.
If you or someone you love is navigating narcissistic abuse, this episode offers validation, guidance, and red flags to watch.
Mia’s links:
https://www.1in3podcast.com/guests/mia-hanks/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHp52nlNorg
https://www.instagram.com/npd.andme/
https://www.tiktok.com/@npdandme
1 in 3 is intended for mature audiences. Episodes contain explicit content and may be triggering to some.
If you are in the United States and need help right now, call the national domestic violence hotline at 800-799-7233 or text the word “start” to 88788.
Contact 1 in 3:
- Send your emails to 1in3podcast@gmail.com
- Follow on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok @1in3podcast
- Check out the website https://www.1in3podcast.com/
Thank you for listening!
Cover art by Laura Swift Dahlke
Music by Tim Crowe
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:23):
Hi, Warriors.
Welcome to One and Three.
I'm your host, Ingrid.
It might sound odd to have afavorite type of episode on a
domestic violence podcast, but Ido.
I love hearing from survivorswho not only share their
stories, but also help clear apath for others to find freedom
and healing.
My guest today, Mia Hanks, isone of those survivors.
(00:45):
She's also an author who sharedher experience with a covert
narcissist to help othersrecognize, heal, and reclaim
their power.
Here's Mia.
Hi, Mia.
Thank you so much for joining meon One and Three today.
SPEAKER_02 (01:01):
Hi, I'm glad to be here.
Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_01 (01:03):
Before we get into our discussion, could you give a
little bit of a background onyourself just so listeners can
get to know you?
SPEAKER_02 (01:10):
Yeah.
So I'm Mia Hanks, and uhbasically my story is that I uh
was married to a covertnarcissist for 29 years.
Um that started when I was quiteyoung.
Um I was 19 when I met my nowex-husband, and we got married
when I was 21, so very young.
(01:31):
And it was just a journey of uma lot of years trying to figure
out what was wrong and um, youknow, dealing with a lot of
gaslighting, manipulation, andfinally 25 years or so in uh
putting together those piecesand realizing that uh I was
dealing with narcissism.
(01:51):
Uh and so I found my way out andum ultimately wrote a book, and
here I am today.
SPEAKER_01 (01:59):
Okay, and that book is called Bridemaid?
SPEAKER_02 (02:02):
Yes, Bride Maid and Memoir, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (02:04):
Okay.
And what led you, what made youdecide you wanted to actually
write the book?
SPEAKER_02 (02:09):
Well, when I was um at the end of my marriage and
learning about narcissism andrealizing that this is what um
was going on, um my myex-husband is undiagnosed, but
um most definitely hasnarcissistic personality
disorder.
I was trying to find everythingI could about this personality
(02:30):
disorder and about narcissismand narcissistic abuse.
This was a whole new subject forme.
I had never really heard of anysuch a thing.
Um, and so I was out theretrying to read and find
everything I could on thesubject.
I found a lot of great books,but they were all written by
therapists and psychologists forthe most part.
(02:50):
Um, very academic.
And I was really seeking afirsthand account.
You know, I really wanted tohear someone else's story of who
had lived through something likethis.
And I just couldn't find it outthere.
So um, yeah, after my divorcewas final, I decided I would
write a memoir and hope thatmaybe other people out there it
would resonate with them.
SPEAKER_01 (03:12):
That's a good point that you bring up that a lot of
the books out there are academicand they definitely have a place
um to learn about narcissism andnarcissistic personality
disorder.
But to hear a personal accountmakes it so much more relatable.
SPEAKER_02 (03:28):
Yeah, I think so.
And I think um, I mean, I'mhoping that my book can be
validating for for someone elseout there who, you know, they
they think they're they're goingthrough this, but they don't,
they think they're alone.
You know, they they don't thinkanyone else is living this way.
Um sadly, a lot of people whoare victims of narcissists, they
kind of keep it quiet.
(03:49):
You know, um you worry aboutpeople believing you.
And so a lot of victims tend tokeep it to themselves and feel
like no one else out there isgoing through this.
Uh so yeah, I hope this booklands in the right hands and
those people that, you know,that need to read my story, um,
that it can resonate with themand give them some validation.
SPEAKER_01 (04:12):
Validation is super key because, like you said, it
is difficult to talk about uhbeing in these relationships.
It's you carry shame thatactually should not be your own
shame.
Um, and then you also questionyour reality and who's going to
believe you.
So I love that you have thisbook, and your hope is to create
validation for those who readit.
(04:34):
Uh let's talk about your book alittle bit.
Is it uh it's it's your memoir.
So is it um true to your story?
SPEAKER_02 (04:43):
Yes, it is.
Um yeah.
So I basically start at thebeginning of my encounter with
my ex-husband, and I it's toldin a series of short stories um
all the way through my divorce.
And uh it's chronological, andand I, you know, I'm trying to
show that how how thenarcissism, how the narcissistic
abuse built over the years, youknow, it got more intense as
(05:08):
each year went on.
And um you can kind of seethrough my story.
Narcissism does not get betterwith age, it it tends to get
worse.
And um, I think that I hopefullyshowed that very clearly that,
you know, this is not somethingthat if you um think if you
stick around long enough or ifyou can be a better wife, that
it will get better or go away.
(05:29):
Um, it really doesn't.
So I take the reader from firstmeeting my my now ex-husband all
the way through our divorce andkind of show that whole journey.
SPEAKER_01 (05:39):
Yeah, it definitely escalates.
And I think that's part of themlosing control.
Once you start to identifywhat's going on and you begin to
pull away, they have to escalatetheir level of abuse to keep you
under their control.
SPEAKER_02 (05:57):
Definitely, yeah.
I mean, that's a good word,escalation.
I mean, that's what I saw in mymarriage, um, year after year,
and especially at the end, youknow, it it got pretty volatile
at the end.
Um, my my situation was neverphysical.
Um, it was all psychological andmental.
But I think it was, you know,probably not too far away from
(06:21):
turning physical at the end.
Um, it there was just theescalation that you mentioned.
Um, and I think that was some ofme figuring this out and putting
these pieces together andsaying, wait a minute, maybe
it's not me.
Maybe it's you.
Um, and that does create morevolatility in the relationship.
SPEAKER_01 (06:41):
Now you you said you read a lot of books.
Do you use some of thatinformation that you learned in
the academic books?
And do you put that informationinto your book?
SPEAKER_02 (06:51):
Yeah, I did.
I I put um a lot of terminologyand um a lot of like checklists.
I put some checklists of, youknow, how do how do you know
that you are being emotionallyabused and uh just red flags to
look for.
So um that was all very much uhyou know things that I had read
and studied on, um, but alsovery not so academic, you know,
(07:14):
very relevant.
I mean, you can read down theselists and say, yeah, that that's
me.
I can check off every one ofthese boxes.
And, you know, then then youagain it's that validation.
You realize I think there is aproblem and it's not all in my
head.
SPEAKER_01 (07:29):
I think that's a really important piece, too, of
using the academic informationyou found and making it
relatable because narcissism isa term that is so overused, it's
a huge buzzword.
And a lot of times it's not usedappropriately, I think, in
especially in social media.
SPEAKER_02 (07:50):
Yeah, I mean, you know, it's funny.
Um the people that you hearreferred to as narcissists,
oftentimes those people are notnarcissists.
Um, I think the general publicwants to call anyone who is
pompous, overconfident, andarrogant, we want to call them
narcissists.
Uh, and maybe some of them are,but that is not the definition.
(08:11):
Um, there is is so it's so muchdeeper than that.
And in fact, um, my ex-husbandbeing a covert narcissist, if
you met him, you would think hewas anything but a narcissist.
In fact, you would think he wascompletely the opposite.
So that's the danger.
You know, what we what weenvision as being narcissistic
(08:32):
is is really flawed.
And the ones who are dangerousare the ones that you would
never guess uh could be anarcissist.
SPEAKER_01 (08:40):
I agree with that.
And uh, you know, people mayhave narcissistic traits, but
that doesn't mean that theyactually have narcissistic
personality disorder.
The the overt ones, they're soblatantly narcissistic, you know
to keep your distance and youknow to keep yourself safe and
your guard up.
But the covert ones, like youmentioned, there's they're the
(09:00):
sneaky ones.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat?
SPEAKER_02 (09:04):
Yeah, so the covert, um, you know, it really puts the
victim in a in a tough spotbecause the covert narcissist is
out there acting in public likethey are so humble and they're
so kind, they're they're soempathetic, they're caring,
they're generous.
They're not any of these things.
Um, it's literally a mask thatthey're wearing.
(09:25):
And so it makes it hard for thevictim because then everyone on
the outside thinks, you know,they they thought I was married
to this great guy.
He's so great, you know,everything is so wonderful.
Um, but that's not how he wasbehind closed doors.
So in my case, um, and andprobably other victims have have
lived this as well, you know, Isort of perpetuated this lie for
(09:48):
him for a lot of years.
I was conditioned very early onto protect him, really, to um
protect his image.
And so I was not giving anyoneany indication that there was
anything wrong behind closeddoors.
In fact, to the contrary, I wasout there saying, Yeah, he's
great.
He's such a great husband.
Um, so yeah, and then you know,you back yourself into a corner.
(10:11):
And these covert narcissists,they are, like you say, they are
tricky.
Um, because then I've basicallypainted myself into a corner
saying, you know, singing hispraises out in public, and then
to have to turn that around andsay, well, really, he was
abusive.
You know, and then you reallyworry, well, who's gonna believe
me?
So it is um it's it's a verysticky spot to be in.
SPEAKER_01 (10:35):
It is, especially when they begin their smear
campaign against you.
Yes, yes.
And a lot of times they'll dothat before you even get out of
the relationship, before youthey they're laying the
groundwork already to make youlook like the crazy one, so that
by the time you're ready tostart telling people the truth
of what's going on, you'vealready been discredited amongst
(10:58):
a lot of people.
SPEAKER_02 (10:59):
Definitely.
Um, I I would say in my case, Idid not give my ex-husband very
much lead time when I left.
Um, he did not believe for asecond that I would ever leave
him.
Um he he was just very confidentthat that you know he had me
stuck and there was no gettingout.
So I don't think he wasnecessarily launching a smear
(11:22):
campaign before I left, but um,I do believe now that the minute
I left, that's when the smearcampaign started.
And it's still ongoing, youknow, two years post-divorce,
um, he is still out thererunning this smear campaign.
And it's interesting.
Um, it's something that I neverthought he would do.
(11:42):
I guess I was just living insome fantasy world.
I don't know.
Um, but it the smear campaignwas the one thing that caught me
off guard.
I really didn't expect that.
And I think um I thought at theend of the day people would
believe me, uh, and they theydidn't.
So that has been probably todate one of my biggest struggles
(12:05):
um dealing with the loss offriendships.
Um, I've had to just basicallyturn people away.
I've had to walk away from thesefriendships because, you know, I
just it's not healthy anymore.
So that has been um knowing thatthe smear campaign is ongoing is
it has been really difficult forme, I have to admit.
SPEAKER_01 (12:26):
Yeah, it's uh I mean, obviously being in the
abusive relationship is awfuland you're just in pure
confusion and survival mode.
But it's difficult once you getout of the relationship too,
especially if there's anythingthat that ties you to that
person.
You know, if you're married andyou have to get divorced and
(12:47):
there's perhaps you own thingstogether that needs to get
split, or you have childrentogether, then they can still
hold things over you and startthe post-separation abuse
portion of everything.
SPEAKER_02 (13:02):
Yeah, and it's interesting.
Um, I so my my kids were both umgrown when I left.
So we did not have to deal withcustody and family court.
But it's interesting.
Um, I have no contact with myex.
I haven't seen him since thedivorce and have not spoken to
him.
But he still finds ways to getat me, you know, and and even if
(13:23):
they don't have access to you,it's amazing how they will never
let that anger go.
I mean, the the idea that youleft them, that they were
discarded, um, that goes againstevery rule in their playbook.
And and I think they just, yeah,they they don't ever quite let
that go.
SPEAKER_01 (13:43):
They don't because you're property to them.
You belong to them.
And how dare you leave them?
SPEAKER_02 (13:50):
Right.
Um, property.
That is a great, that's a greatanalogy.
Um, yeah, that's that's all thatthe victim is to the narcissist,
is a piece of property.
You know, it's it's an ownershipsituation.
Um, it's not a two-way, youknow, loving relationship.
It is, I, I, uh, I own you, andum, you know, that's it.
(14:14):
You you're my property.
So um very, very flawedthinking, and it's um extremely
toxic.
SPEAKER_01 (14:21):
Horribly toxic.
Uh one thing with that I'velearned with talking to
individuals and even some veryclose friends of mine who are
post um abusive relationships,and even some who are currently
in relationships that I identifyas a narcissistic relationship.
(14:43):
One question they always haveis, what did I do wrong?
And where is that?
Why did he change?
And in these cases, it's all myall my friends have been female
and these individuals have beenfemale and their abusers are all
male.
But why did he change or whatdid I do to make him change?
And I think it's difficult tofinally get to that realization
(15:03):
of that person you fell in lovewith actually never existed.
SPEAKER_02 (15:07):
Correct.
I mean, it's it's all a mask,you know, it's that cycle of
love bombing.
Um, my ex-husband looked likethe greatest catch in the world,
you know.
He he was smart, he was um sointerested in me, he was
over-the-top gifts andattention.
And I mean, you know, everybodyaround me is like, wow, he is a
(15:28):
great guy.
Um that that person neverexisted.
You know, that was only, he wasonly showing that side of him to
kind of get me hooked.
Um, and then all of thatchanges.
You know, when once you getmarried and once that they kind
of feel that ownership over you,it slowly starts to, that mask
starts to slip.
(15:48):
And and it's kind of a, youknow, it's not an overnight
thing.
I think it's more of a gradual,it it evolves.
Narcissism, that that abuse, itjust evolves.
And um, yeah, it's it's notalways overnight.
SPEAKER_01 (16:03):
Right.
And it's very personalizedbecause they react with however
you react.
So if you're, you know, ifthey're verbally abusive or
degrading and you stand yourground and you say that's not
okay, and I'm not going totolerate that, then they might
might be apologetic for a while.
And then they can be, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (16:23):
I mean, they they can.
I I I honestly don't think myex-husband ever apologized once
in 29 years of marriage.
I mean, if he did, I certainlycan't remember it.
Um, but yeah, if they apologize,it's not most of the time, it's
not genuine, you know.
And uh those types ofconversations that that you were
talking about, um, you know, inin my situation, if I brought up
(16:47):
anything that he had done wrong,um, he would find a way to turn
it around to where I had donesomething wrong.
And, you know, it if you try tobring up a simple point, you
know, hey, can we talk aboutthis?
Because I didn't like the way,you know, you said this to me or
did this, um, that mightescalate into a two-hour
(17:07):
discussion.
And at the end of thatdiscussion, it's just circular
talking, you know.
And at the end of thatdiscussion, it will all somehow
come back to me that I was theone that did something wrong.
And really it's exhausting.
And after a time, I just stoppedbringing things up in my
marriage.
It was like I don't have theenergy to deal with the lecture
that's going to ensue.
(17:28):
And then it's all going to be myfault anyway.
So I think as victims, we learnto just keep things to
ourselves.
SPEAKER_01 (17:35):
Absolutely.
And then when you get into thatcircular conversation, I forgot.
Oh my gosh, I don't know how Iforgot the circular
conversation.
But it's almost like you want itto get over with.
So eventually you end upapologizing.
I think initially you apologizebecause you are fooled that
somehow this was all of your owndoing and your own fault.
(17:58):
But as time goes on and youstart to realize what's
happening, you'll just apologizejust to get it over with.
SPEAKER_02 (18:06):
Oh, I I did it all the time.
Um, you know, and then you'reyou're angry with yourself for
for caving.
You know, I caved every singletime.
But honestly, I mean, it's likebeing interrogated.
And these lectures could be, Imean, I think the longest one
that I ever sat through was overfour hours long.
It's exhausting, you know, andand his aim is just to wear me
(18:29):
down so that I will then justgive in and say, yes, you're
right, I'm wrong, I'm sorry.
And yeah, every single timethat's how it ended because I
was just exhausted and I wantedto leave the room.
Um, so yeah, it was um that thatreally can do a number um on you
psychologically when youbasically are just to escape the
(18:52):
room and to escape thesituation, you take on blame
that's not yours and youapologize for something you
didn't even do.
SPEAKER_01 (19:01):
And then that screws with you even after you get out.
And you look back and oh mygosh, I've done this so many
times.
I've looked back and I'vethought, did that really happen?
Or did I exact did I exaggeratewhat happened?
SPEAKER_02 (19:15):
You gaslight yourself.
SPEAKER_01 (19:17):
Yes.
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (19:18):
Yeah, you really do.
Um, and and if I were to thenbring that up to my husband, you
know, it would be, well, there'ssomething wrong with you because
you are too sensitive.
You know, that shouldn't havebothered you.
And therefore, you know, eitheryou're too sensitive or you're
remembering it wrong, or youmisinterpreted it.
And then you start to think,well, I don't know, maybe I did.
(19:41):
And then this whole gaslightingyourself thing starts.
So um, it's a lot to untangle uhwhen you finally get out.
SPEAKER_01 (19:49):
Oh, it definitely is.
And uh mine would always say, Iwas just joking.
Oh, I mean, some things you'relike, how is this a joke?
How was that even a joke?
I don't understand how you cansay that was a joke.
But yeah, it you're just yourwhole reality is so turned
upside down.
Uh, did you have a final momentthat was your last straw, or did
(20:12):
you could you sense that therewas going to be an end to this?
SPEAKER_02 (20:16):
Yeah, you know, my physical health was really
deteriorating um in thismarriage, uh, those last year or
two.
So, you know, I was havingchronic pain, stomach aches,
headaches, anxiety attacks allthe time.
And I kind of realized I alwayswasn't going to survive.
You know, it just was notsustainable.
Our bodies are not meant to livein this constant state of fight
(20:39):
or flight.
And that stress will reallywreak havoc on your physical
health.
So that was that was going on.
And, you know, just his theabuse was escalating to a point
that I was really feeling like Iwas in danger.
And I remember I was doing a lotof research late at night and
reading, and I came across apost on Instagram late one
(21:03):
night, and it was talking abouttrue intimacy.
And it was saying that trueintimacy is not necessarily
physical.
It's more about being able tolook at your partner and say, I
feel safe with you.
And I read that and I thought, Idon't feel safe, you know, and
and I asked myself, have I everfelt safe in this marriage?
(21:24):
And really my answer was no.
So it was sort of the catalystto kind of get me thinking, you
know, with my health andeverything, and I think I need
to get out of here.
So it was a it was a quickturnaround.
Once I realized I needed to getout, I mean, in a matter of a
few months, I was I was gone.
SPEAKER_01 (21:42):
Yeah, I think that's pretty common, you know, across
there are some stories that area little bit different, but I
think there's usually something,a catalyst that gets your mind
in motion of this is notsustainable.
And for some, there's anultimate last straw of, you
know, I've been thinking I wasgoing to get out and now I I'm
(22:04):
definitely done.
SPEAKER_02 (22:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't know that I had a reallast straw, but um the last few
months, like I say, I was reallyliving in fear.
Um, I really feared that thingswere going to turn physical.
And um, he was just getting moreand more volatile.
And it just, you know, it's kindof all the stars kind of aligned
for me.
And um, I just knew when it wastime to go, I had to go.
(22:28):
And so I'm I'm glad that thingskind of fell into place like
they did.
Um, I think for a lot of women,that's not necessarily the case.
And so um I was I feel verylucky.
SPEAKER_01 (22:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, those of us who are ableto get out, and I can't say
unscathed because all of us havesome sort of scars from these
relationships.
But okay, so I'm gonna ask youthe question that is it's one of
my most annoying questions uhthat I hear people ask.
But you know, you were in thismarriage for a long time.
(23:03):
How like when did you realizethat it was an abusive
relationship and why did youstay?
I hate that question.
SPEAKER_02 (23:10):
But uh that's yeah, that's the that's the the
million dollar question, right?
Um when did I realize it wasabusive?
You know, I don't think Irealized until 20 plus years in
that it was abusive.
Um and I think that maybesomewhere deep inside I knew it
was abusive, but I told myselfit wasn't.
It was a coping mechanism um tonormalize it, you know, just to
(23:33):
just to say this is howeverybody lives, this is normal,
um, and really just kind oflooked past it.
Why did I stay?
I think, you know, it's acomplicated answer to a
seemingly easy question.
Um I think that I, like I say, Inormalized the abuse.
I told myself this is okay.
(23:54):
Um, I had kids, and that reallyplayed into my decision making.
Um, in retrospect, I did notmake the right decision.
Um, I for a good part of thereason that I stayed was for my
kids, you know.
And I think society tells us youkeep your family together, you
don't um break up the family,you don't want your children to
(24:15):
be children of divorce.
And so I was listening to thosesocietal norms, you know, stay
for the kids.
Um now I know, being on theother side, that staying for the
kids is sometimes the worstthing you can do for the kids.
Uh hindsight is 2020.
But yeah, um that, and then Ithink there's just this
embarrassment factor too.
(24:36):
I mean, it's a lot to have tobasically confess and say, this
has been a horrible marriage andit's been abusive, and I never
told anybody.
And, you know, then people aregonna say, well, why didn't you
tell somebody?
Well, I don't know, you know, Imean, and so to have to flip the
script and and say, yeah, I'vereally kind of been living this
(24:57):
lie with him, um, it seems likea lot to take on.
It's it's a daunting, it's adaunting idea of of leaving a
narcissist.
And then of course, um, anotherthing that played into that was
just fear.
You know, I really was fearfulof what he might do if I left.
So it's a, you know, it there'sa lot of reasons why why people
(25:19):
stay.
SPEAKER_01 (25:19):
Yeah.
And, you know, especially whenhe's covert, it's difficult to
really pinpoint that it's abusebecause you you can explain some
of the behavior away, or you canthink of, well, maybe it's just
anger management, it's stress,it's, you know, all these
different things that it's notis not this blatant abuse.
(25:40):
And even for those who haveblatant abuse, even for those
individuals who are going to theER with bruises and broken
bones, they still have adifficult time leaving.
And you pointed out a reallygood reason, legitimate fear.
SPEAKER_03 (25:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (25:54):
Because, you know, that time you leave, that's the
most dangerous point ofanybody's life.
SPEAKER_02 (26:00):
It really is.
I mean, that's the scariestpoint is when when you are
leaving.
Um, you mentioned about angermanagement, and that's
interesting because at one pointin my marriage, um, I decided
that was the problem, that hehad anger management issues.
And I told him, and um I toldhim that I guess this was, you
know, I didn't really threatento leave, but he might have been
(26:22):
a little bit concerned thatmaybe the idea was spinning
around in my head.
And um, so he said that he wouldgo to therapy um for anger
management.
And I thought, wow, you know, Ican't believe he's actually, you
know, he's actually going to dosomething, like admit that he
might have a problem.
And so he found a therapist andand he went several sessions.
(26:45):
And then um, then the therapistwanted to see us both.
Or I guess he wanted me to gowith him.
I don't know.
But anyway, I remember going totherapy and and I thought I was
going to hear how, you know,yeah, he has anger management
problems, and here's how we'regoing to deal with them.
Instead, the therapist tells mestraight up in his office, he
said, you know, I don't thinkyour husband has anger
(27:08):
management problems.
And that was a huge blow.
I mean, and what had happenedwas narcissists loved to go to
therapy.
And I didn't know this at thetime.
But he just went in there andcharmed his way through all
these sessions and acted likethe most humble, gracious, you
know, considerate man that everlived.
(27:28):
And the therapist was totallybought it.
And so I leave there thinkingthis whole thing has now
backfired on me.
Because now he's saying, I can'tbelieve you made me go to
therapy and I don't even have aproblem.
See, you're the one with theproblem.
So that set me back a few steps.
You know, then you're thinking,well, maybe it's me.
Um, so yeah, that whole angermanagement thing, that was, I
(27:51):
thought I had, I thought I haddiagnosed him.
And uh yeah.
Anyway, it was narcissism,actually.
But I wouldn't find that out forseveral more years.
SPEAKER_01 (28:01):
Well, and therapy is that's it, it frustrates that
frustrates me too.
I uh therapy is great.
I love therapy.
I go to therapy.
SPEAKER_02 (28:09):
It can be great.
Yeah, it definitely can begreat.
Um if you have the righttherapist.
SPEAKER_01 (28:14):
Right.
You have to have the righttherapist.
And honestly, I don't know ifthere's any situation in an
abusive relationship that Iwould ever recommend couples
therapy, because when you go tocouples therapy, you're already
admitting or taking on partownership of the relationship
not working.
(28:35):
You're going into work on therelationship together.
And it's almost this admittanceof, okay, the there's something
that I'm going to have to workon too.
And I feel like what it does,especially when you get these
really talented narcissists orothers with personality
disorders that are able tomanipulate, they're able to take
(28:55):
that situation and validateeverything that they are doing
to you.
SPEAKER_02 (28:59):
That's exactly what happened in my situation.
So we um the last year or somaybe the last six months, um,
my husband actually wanted to goto marriage counseling.
And I agreed, um, not knowingthat this that is not advisable
when you're with a narcissist.
Like you said, the whole thing,um, we probably did 10 sessions
(29:23):
with this with this therapist.
Um, fortunately, this lady wasreally good.
Um, and that's not always thecase.
But we did about 10 sessions,and basically these sessions
were him sitting on the couchtelling her everything I was
doing wrong.
And I really didn't talk for formuch of the sessions.
Um it all worked out in my favorin the end because after about
(29:47):
the 10th session, um, in themiddle of the session, the
therapist stopped us.
She looked at him and she said,I'm sorry, but I cannot continue
to to see you.
And I my mouth was just, youknow, I couldn't believe it.
And she said, um, she said, youcome in here week after week and
(30:09):
you tell me everything that iswrong with your wife.
And she said, you are not ableto see things from other
people's perspectives, and youcannot put yourself in someone
else's shoes.
So she said, as much as I wouldlike to continue to take your
money, I can't do it.
And she told us, she said, um,I, you know, basically she told
him, don't come back.
(30:29):
And that was a shock.
I was like, she just kicked himout of therapy.
Like I've never heard of atherapist kicking a coin out of
therapy.
Um, but yeah, it happened.
And that was some majorvalidation for me.
SPEAKER_01 (30:44):
For sure.
That I that does not happen veryoften.
And that's thank God you had agood therapist there.
SPEAKER_02 (30:50):
Yeah, yeah.
She um I think the uh one of thelast kind of exercises that she
had us do in her office was veryinteresting.
Um, she asked us both, she said,tell me what's on your bucket
list.
And I thought, what a strangequestion for her to ask.
Like, why is she asking that?
But she had motive.
Um, so she asked him first.
(31:11):
And he started, I mean, he wenton for 10 minutes.
You know, I want to travel hereand I want to do this and this
and that.
And he went on and on and on.
And finally, it was my turn.
And she looked at me and shesaid, Tell me what's on your
bucket list.
And I could not think of onesingle thing.
Not one single thing.
And she started coaching me andshe says, Well, I mean, is is
(31:32):
there somewhere you want totravel?
Like, and I said, I I don'tknow.
I don't think so.
And she said, Well, you know, doyou have any goals?
Like, what are your goals?
And I said, I I I don't know.
And um, I think the reason thatshe did that exercise was to
illustrate that he had basicallystolen my entire identity.
(31:55):
You know, I didn't know who Iwas, I didn't know what I
wanted.
Um, I was just, you know, I Ihad just given my whole self to
him.
And um I think it was the nextsession that she actually kicked
him out of therapy.
So um, yeah, I guess it waspretty telling.
At the time it seemed like astrange question, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (32:14):
Wow, that's because they're parasites.
They suck everything out of youuntil you're just a shell of
what you used to be.
SPEAKER_02 (32:21):
Yes, definitely they do.
Um you know, you don't knowyourself coming out of that type
of marriage.
You really have to say, I don'teven I don't know who I am.
Who, what do I want?
What are my goals?
What do I want to do with mylife?
Um, because I really didn'tknow.
SPEAKER_01 (32:37):
Yeah, and it's you can't even say that you have to
re-identify or, you know, createa new personality because you
don't even know who you areanymore.
It's like you actually have toidentify, not re-identify.
You have to recall who you are.
And I mean, you come out adifferent person, a different
(32:58):
version of yourself, you know,eventually after you put the
work in.
But it's it's hard to rememberwho you were going into it, even
if it's a short relationship.
I think they're just so skillfulat destroying who you are that
it's hard to even remember whoyou who you're supposed to be.
SPEAKER_02 (33:15):
Yeah, it definitely it is.
Um, and like I say, I got intothis um relationship at age 19.
So it was, yeah, I had to reallystop and think like, what do I
want to be when I grow up?
I mean, you know, I I don'tknow.
I don't, I just you come outwith so many questions.
Um, you really have to findyourself again.
SPEAKER_01 (33:35):
Yeah, especially at 19.
I mean, at 19, you don't knowwho you are.
So you haven't even fullyfigured that out before he just
wiped everything else out.
SPEAKER_02 (33:44):
Yes, completely.
SPEAKER_01 (33:46):
I wanted to bring up, you mentioned, you know,
what society says as far asnorms and marriages.
I feel like when you are avictim of an abusive
relationship, society,everything you do is wrong,
according to society, no matterwhat you do.
Because if you're a parent, uh,you're wrong for staying in that
(34:07):
relationship and exposing yourchildren to an abusive
relationship.
But if you leave with yourchildren, then you're wrong
because you're splitting up thefamily.
SPEAKER_02 (34:18):
Yeah, you can't win, you know.
SPEAKER_01 (34:20):
No.
SPEAKER_02 (34:20):
And yeah, you you you split up the family, you
break up the family, you andthat was one thing that my
ex-husband used um to guilt meafter I left, you know.
I can't believe you're breakingup the family.
And I did.
I felt bad, you know, not badenough to go back, fortunately.
Um, but yeah, it it is reallyyou can't win.
You're either you're wrong forstaying and you're wrong for
(34:43):
leaving.
SPEAKER_01 (34:44):
Yeah.
You tried too hard, you didn'ttry hard enough.
It's it and it's hard.
And especially if you've beengaslight those many years, and
you like you mentioned earlier,you gaslight yourself.
So then you're questioning ifyou're doing the right thing,
even years later.
SPEAKER_02 (35:02):
Yeah, you really, um, you really do.
And because it is a bigdecision, you know.
Um, and there are a lot ofthings to, I mean, I was
concerned about how it wouldaffect my kids, obviously.
Um, and and it's so there's alot to unpack there.
Um, you've got to think aboutjust where where do I start?
What do I do?
(35:22):
Um, because I really didn'tknow, you know, I had never
really worked.
And um it was just it was a bitoverwhelming.
But um in the end, it, you know,like I say, it all kind of came
together for me.
And and I feel very fortunate.
SPEAKER_01 (35:36):
Speaking of your kids, did they ever talk to you
about any of this?
Since they're gr older?
SPEAKER_02 (35:42):
Yeah, yeah.
So that's the nice thing.
Um, because they they are older,um, you know, they're they were
over 18 when I when I divorced,so we didn't have family court
and all of that.
And I felt like because they'reboth adults, um, I felt like I
could talk to them about why Ileft, you know.
Um, and that we had nice adultconversations about it.
(36:04):
And we've talked extensively,you know, um, both of them were
very much in support of meleaving.
Um so I was I was lucky thatthat I had their support behind
me.
They uh both think that I shouldhave left years ago.
But, you know, again, hindsightis 2020.
So we have had um gooddiscussions around it.
And you know, they both stillhave a relationship with their
(36:24):
father.
He he is their father after all.
And sometimes I have to remindmyself that can be hard.
Um, but they do.
They they do have a relationshipwith him and as they should, as
they should.
But they also realize that thathe is, you know, not
neurotypical.
And so um I think that'simportant.
SPEAKER_01 (36:47):
So what steps did you first of all, when you left,
how did you leave?
SPEAKER_02 (36:54):
So I left slowly.
I didn't want him to know what Iwas doing.
So what I did was um I startedstaying at my parents' house and
making excuses for why I neededto stay over there.
And uh after about two weeks,you know, he started saying,
What are you doing?
Like, are you coming back?
What are you doing?
And finally I said to him, I Ijust need to take some time for
(37:18):
myself.
I'm not doing well and and Ijust need a break.
And that was kind of how I gotaway.
Um and then, you know, I becauseI because I couldn't, I didn't
have the courage to just say tohim, I'm leaving.
So I kept up this for almost ayear.
And you know, we were separatedfor a year before I could file
for divorce.
I just didn't have the courageto do it.
(37:40):
Um, but yeah, it was a gradual,kind of a gradual leaving
process.
I knew I wasn't coming back.
He didn't know that.
Um, I was petrified to tell himthat, you know, I wasn't coming
back and that I wanted adivorce.
So I felt like leaving slowlykind of softened the blow and
made the environment a littlebit safer for me.
(38:01):
And that's why I did it thatway.
I didn't go no contact, like youknow, they will tell you to do
when you're dealing with anarcissist.
To me, that felt dangerous.
So I sort of went low contactand just sort of faded out, you
know, faded out the conversationbecause for me that felt like
what I needed to do to, youknow, be safe.
SPEAKER_01 (38:24):
That is such a key thing for, you know, anybody
listening is that you can haveall these professionals telling
you the way to do it.
You can have other survivorstelling you the way they did it
or what their recommendationsare.
But it's each victim, eachsurvivor, they know their abuser
(38:45):
like nobody else.
And you know what is the safething to do, you know what is a
dangerous thing to do.
And you know, for all the peoplewho say, Why did you say that
like we were talking aboutbefore, legitimate fear is is
one of the reasons.
And people, you you know yourabuser.
(39:07):
You know, if you just abruptlyleave, he's going to come for
you and he's going to harm you,if not kill you.
Yeah.
And if you know that, then don'tdo it that way.
Or, you know, or you escape inthe middle of the night, never
to be heard or seen from again.
You know, whatever your safeexit plan is that feels most
comfortable, because I don'tthink any of it's going to feel
(39:30):
100% comfortable.
SPEAKER_02 (39:31):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (39:32):
But yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (39:33):
Well, and and I think another real key point
there with the exit plan is umyou can't let your abuser know
that you have an exit plan.
Um, because that will really, Imean, that won't end well.
Um, and the other thing is likeyou say, you know your abuser
better than people on theoutside do.
And so it's easy for people onthe outside to say, oh, you
(39:57):
know, he would never hurt you.
You don't have to worry aboutthat.
Well, you know, okay, maybe heprobably wouldn't hurt me, but I
can't say definitively that hewouldn't.
So why take the chance?
You know, I mean, maybe I'mbeing overly overly cautious
here, but if there's the tiniestchance um of being hurt in this,
(40:20):
I mean, you know, if there's thetiniest chance of losing your
life.
Why would you take that chance?
So you really do have to listento your own intuition.
SPEAKER_01 (40:29):
Yeah.
And overly cautious is waybetter than the alternative of,
you know, being too brazen andlosing your life because you
didn't want to be overlycautious.
SPEAKER_02 (40:40):
Right.
Yeah, I totally agree with that.
Only you know how that person isapt to react.
And, you know, like I say, ifthere's this tiniest chance that
it could um end with violence,then you know, you need to
factor that in.
SPEAKER_01 (40:54):
Right.
And and for those people who sayhe would never do that or he's
never shown displayed any signsof aggression or violence, well,
he also has never been facedwith his property leaving him.
SPEAKER_02 (41:09):
Right.
And narcissists can have, Imean, if if things get when they
start to spiral out of control,that's when they get dangerous.
When when they start to losecontrol and start into this
downward spiral, they can havesomething called a psychic
break.
And, you know, it and ithappens.
And that's what you don't knowabout.
(41:29):
Like, could this escalate into apsychic break?
If so, it could get dangerous.
Uh, and that is something tokeep in mind.
I mean, you narcissists don'taccept the word no.
So when you leave, even thoughthey've never been physical in
the past, uh that does not meanthat they won't start.
SPEAKER_01 (41:48):
Right.
And much like how we each haveour, you know, last straw or our
gut feelings, they also havewhat in their mind what is I've
lost everything.
And if they get to that pointwhere they feel like they truly
have lost everything, then it's,you know, no holds barred.
Like full systems go, I need togo in massive control, you know,
(42:14):
regaining control mode.
And who knows what that's goingto be.
You can have somebody who neverlaid a hand on somebody go all
the way.
SPEAKER_02 (42:22):
Yeah, absolutely.
So um, really, you know, that'ssomething to think about when
you are formulating an exitplan.
SPEAKER_01 (42:31):
Yeah.
And then so what happens afteryou leave?
Because especially you, you weremarried for over 20 years.
You were 19 when you gotmarried, and you know, didn't
have a a a career.
So what do you do?
How do you rebuild your life?
SPEAKER_02 (42:47):
Slowly.
Um, you know, it has taken timeto just kind of figure out what
what I want to do.
Um, and for me, I mean, it'sit's a lot of it is just about
healing and really taking thingsone day at a time.
You know, I'm I'm not too farout of this um marriage.
I've I've been divorced twoyears now.
(43:09):
And it's really been, these lasttwo years have been it's a lot
of growth.
It's been really good.
But, you know, you have to learnhow to, in my case, you know,
being able to wake up in themorning and say, I can make all
my decisions.
I can decide how I want to spendmy day.
It's going from zero freedom tocomplete freedom.
(43:30):
So it's a lot, you know, it'sum, it's overwhelming and it's
scary, but it's also veryexciting at the same time.
So uh these last couple of yearshave just been a lot about me
figuring out who I am and what Iwant to do and where I want to
live and just being able to makelike these adult decisions that
I've never been able to makebefore.
(43:51):
Um it's been it's been fun.
I I say it's it's a bitoverwhelming, but definitely um
it's it's been a good, it's beena good two years.
SPEAKER_01 (44:00):
It's so liberating, right?
You're using free.
Um and I think it's important topoint out too, with you know,
each victim takes however longto get out of a relationship.
If they go back however manytimes, that's you know, that's
an individual thing.
And it's that's the same thingwith post-abusive relationship
(44:21):
healing.
You know, that time, there's noset time.
There shouldn't, there's not ayou should feel totally fine in
a year or two years or fiveyears or 10 years or whatever.
That's all very individualizedas well.
SPEAKER_02 (44:35):
Yeah, and I think, you know, for a lot of a lot of
victims of narcissistic abuse, Imean, you may never fully heal
from it.
It it changes you.
And it has shown, um, studieshave shown that narcissistic
abuse can actually change yourbrain, you know.
Um, so you may never fully heal.
I mean, these are some permanentscars, but we learn to adapt and
(44:59):
move on and find, you know, finda new life for ourselves.
So um it's in the end, it's youknow, even though those scars
are still there, it's okay.
Um, it really is.
Like you you will be able to,you can make it, you can do it.
SPEAKER_01 (45:15):
When you wrote your book, did anything come up?
Was it difficult?
Did you have to take breaks atall?
SPEAKER_02 (45:22):
Um, I did.
The the way that my book kind ofcame about was uh I was in
therapy after after I left, andum I was dealing with a lot of
guilt because my ex was saying,you know, I can't believe you
broke the family up.
I can't believe you know you'veruined our lives.
And and I I was feeling soguilty and thinking, would it be
(45:43):
easier just to go back?
You know, I don't want to goback, but would it just make it
easy on everybody else?
And I was talking to mytherapist about this, and she
told me, she said, I want you togo home and I want you to take
out a pad of paper and a pen,and I want you to write down
every traumatic event that youcan remember in the last 29
years.
(46:03):
And then when you start feelingguilty, I want you to go back,
take that sheet of paper out andread it.
And so I did, I did that.
And um ultimately when I decidedto write this book, that's what
I did.
I took that piece of paper backout and I just started telling
the stories of of each one ofthese things.
And um, yeah, so that's that'skind of how it came, how it came
(46:26):
about.
And it it was reallytherapeutic.
Um, I think writing stuff down,it's sort of a release.
You feel like, you know, you canlet go of that now.
And so I wasn't, um, I waspleasantly surprised to see how
cathartic it would be to write.
Um, so yeah, it was it was endedup being a good thing for me.
SPEAKER_01 (46:47):
Yeah, I think that's um I had my I had a therapist
that actually did something verysimilar, had me, but didn't have
me physically write down mystory, had me imagine writing
down my story in a scrollbecause I was I came in the
first session and I was like,I'm leaving.
And then the next one I waslike, I'm pretty sure I'm going
to leave, but I'm not quite, youknow, there.
(47:11):
And then she had me do that andthen imagine myself reading my
story.
And I kept saying, I feel sosorry.
I was completely disassociated.
You know, I was I feel so sorryfor that woman and I'm so angry
for that woman.
And then it took a couple timesof rereading that in my mind to
(47:31):
admit or realize that's me.
It's not this story I just read.
So yeah, I think that umwriting, you know, some people
have written their stuff out andthen they burned it.
SPEAKER_02 (47:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (47:44):
You know, they never want to tell anyone.
But there is somethingcathartic, like you said.
SPEAKER_02 (47:48):
Yeah, I understand now why people would do that.
Um, it's a it's a release.
You feel like once you'vedocumented it, now you can let
it go.
SPEAKER_01 (47:57):
Yeah.
Um what was I gonna say?
Oh, uh another another thingthat keeps popping up with
victims or survivors who haveeither chosen to tell their
story on a podcast or havewritten a book is their concern
for others that if they don'tknow the f their full story of
(48:20):
now my loved ones, my friends,family, they're going to see my
story in all of its glory.
And they're, you know, the theauthors or the victim survivor,
whatever you want to uh chooseto be called, um, is their
concern of how other people aregoing to be able to handle
hearing that story.
(48:40):
Did that ever cross your mind atall?
SPEAKER_02 (48:42):
It did.
In fact, um I, you know, I hadtrouble writing when I when I
first started because of that.
I, you know, I keep thinkingabout all of these people that I
know that are going to read thisbook.
And I'm thinking, I I don'tthink I want to tell that.
You know, I don't, that'sembarrassing.
Um, what I ultimately had to dowas I had to just kind of block
(49:03):
all those people out and pretendlike I'm writing to other
victims out there that are stuckin these marriages, you know,
they can't find a way out.
And I just had to forget thatall these other people that I
knew would be reading this book.
Um, because that is hard.
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, it's it's there'sthere's something a little bit
(49:23):
embarrassing about it, but atthe same time, you know, it's
freeing.
It's like, okay, here's my storyand take it or leave it.
And so yeah, it's but it's umit's hard to put yourself out
there.
SPEAKER_01 (49:37):
It is, it's so exposing.
SPEAKER_00 (49:38):
It's like you're standing out in the middle of
you know, a busy city and likecompletely exposed.
SPEAKER_02 (49:45):
Yes, yes.
It's um it's hard.
It is hard.
But then when you again turnyour shift to turn your um
thinking over to other victimsout there that are, you know,
that are suffering, um, andthinking, well, if this can help
them in any way, uh, it's worthit.
SPEAKER_01 (50:05):
What kind of feedback did you get from
people?
SPEAKER_02 (50:10):
Um so a lot of my family doesn't know about my
book, honestly.
Um, but those that have read it,uh, family and friends that have
read it, uh, I mean, I've gottenreally good feedback.
Um, and I, you know, I feel goodabout it.
I I didn't anticipate thefeedback being as good as it has
been, uh, because you know, Ijust didn't feel that confident,
(50:31):
honestly.
But uh it's been good.
And I I know some therapists umare using it with uh some some
of their clients, and that makesme feel really good.
So yeah, the feedback has beenvery positive.
SPEAKER_01 (50:44):
Do you have any plans for another book?
SPEAKER_02 (50:47):
Um I don't currently, but I certainly
wouldn't be opposed to it.
Um I I thought the the processwas a very positive one, and uh
I would certainly entertain thethought of doing it again.
I just don't know what I wouldwrite about.
SPEAKER_01 (51:02):
Yeah.
You don't have definitely maybethe the aftermath.
SPEAKER_02 (51:09):
Um yeah, I've kind of thought about it.
Um yeah, we have some ideasswirling around in my head, but
um like I say, I'm still kind ofon this this um plan of taking
things one day at a time.
So I don't really have anydefinitive plans um at all.
And so who knows?
SPEAKER_01 (51:26):
Okay.
Well, if anyone wants to getyour book or if they want to
keep up with any informationthat you may have, uh how would
they get in touch with you orfind the book?
SPEAKER_02 (51:37):
I have a website, it's meajhanks.com, and uh
there's a blog on there, there'sum links to lots of podcasts,
and there's a link to purchasemy book on Amazon.
Um, it's available in umpaperback and ebook.
So you can get it on Amazon andI think pretty much online
anywhere books are sold.
(51:58):
Um so yeah, and then I'm alsoactive on TikTok.
My handle is at npd and me.
SPEAKER_00 (52:06):
Oh, that's a good handle.
SPEAKER_02 (52:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (52:10):
I like that.
Okay.
Um, and so before we close, doyou have any lasting um well
actually first before we dothat, do you have did we miss
anything that you wanted to talkabout?
SPEAKER_02 (52:22):
Um I don't think so.
I think we covered, we coveredthe important stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (52:26):
Okay.
And so do you have any lastingwords of encouragement or wisdom
you would like to leave withlisteners?
SPEAKER_02 (52:33):
Yeah, I think I would just say, you know, if you
are in a relationship that istoxic, that is abusive, um don't
don't waste time thinking thatit's gonna get better, you know,
and thinking that if if you canbetter yourself, that that the
relationship will fix itself.
Um if you're with a narcissist,it's not going to get better.
And I hate to sound dim andgloom, but um you really need to
(52:56):
find your way out of that.
And and it's never too late toleave.
Whether you've been married forfive years or 30 years, um,
there is a path out always.
And and you can definitely finda better life on the other side
of abuse.
SPEAKER_01 (53:11):
Perfect.
Thank you so much, Mia, for yourtime and joining me today.
Thank you.
And thank you for your book.
I'm I'm looking forward toreading it.
SPEAKER_00 (53:19):
Right if I can stay awake.
And not that it's I mean, Ihaven't started it.
It's not like it's putting me tosleep, it's just I'm tired all
the time.
I understand that completely.
Okay.
Well, thank you again.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (53:31):
Thank you again, Mia, for joining me today, and
thank you, Warriors, forlistening.
I've included the links Mia wasreferring to as well as her one
in three profile in the shownotes.
I will be back next week withanother episode for you.
Until then, stay strong.
And wherever you are in yourjourney, always remember you are
(53:52):
not alone.
Find more information, registeras a guest, or leave a review by
going to the websiteonein3podcast.com.
That's the number one the numberthree podcast.com.
Follow one in three onInstagram, Facebook, and Twitter
at one and three podcast.
(54:13):
To help me out, please rememberto rate review and subscribe.
One and three is a point fivePinoy production.
Music written and performed byTim Crow.
Hi, Warriors.
Welcome to One and Three.
I'm your host, Ingrid.
It might sound odd to have afavorite type of episode on a
domestic violence podcast, but Ido.
I love hearing from survivorswho not only share their
stories, but also help clear apath for others to find freedom
and healing.
My guest today, Mia Hanks, isone of those survivors.
(00:45):
She's also an author who sharedher experience with a covert
narcissist to help othersrecognize, heal, and reclaim
their power.
Here's Mia.
Hi, Mia.
Thank you so much for joining meon One and Three today.
SPEAKER_02 (01:01):
Hi, I'm glad to be here.
Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_01 (01:03):
Before we get into our discussion, could you give a
little bit of a background onyourself just so listeners can
get to know you?
SPEAKER_02 (01:10):
Yeah.
So I'm Mia Hanks, and uhbasically my story is that I uh
was married to a covertnarcissist for 29 years.
Um that started when I was quiteyoung.
Um I was 19 when I met my nowex-husband, and we got married
when I was 21, so very young.
(01:31):
And it was just a journey of uma lot of years trying to figure
out what was wrong and um, youknow, dealing with a lot of
gaslighting, manipulation, andfinally 25 years or so in uh
putting together those piecesand realizing that uh I was
dealing with narcissism.
(01:51):
Uh and so I found my way out andum ultimately wrote a book, and
here I am today.
SPEAKER_01 (01:59):
Okay, and that book is called Bridemaid?
SPEAKER_02 (02:02):
Yes, Bride Maid and Memoir, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (02:04):
Okay.
And what led you, what made youdecide you wanted to actually
write the book?
SPEAKER_02 (02:09):
Well, when I was um at the end of my marriage and
learning about narcissism andrealizing that this is what um
was going on, um my myex-husband is undiagnosed, but
um most definitely hasnarcissistic personality
disorder.
I was trying to find everythingI could about this personality
(02:30):
disorder and about narcissismand narcissistic abuse.
This was a whole new subject forme.
I had never really heard of anysuch a thing.
Um, and so I was out theretrying to read and find
everything I could on thesubject.
I found a lot of great books,but they were all written by
therapists and psychologists forthe most part.
(02:50):
Um, very academic.
And I was really seeking afirsthand account.
You know, I really wanted tohear someone else's story of who
had lived through something likethis.
And I just couldn't find it outthere.
So um, yeah, after my divorcewas final, I decided I would
write a memoir and hope thatmaybe other people out there it
would resonate with them.
SPEAKER_01 (03:12):
That's a good point that you bring up that a lot of
the books out there are academicand they definitely have a place
um to learn about narcissism andnarcissistic personality
disorder.
But to hear a personal accountmakes it so much more relatable.
SPEAKER_02 (03:28):
Yeah, I think so.
And I think um, I mean, I'mhoping that my book can be
validating for for someone elseout there who, you know, they
they think they're they're goingthrough this, but they don't,
they think they're alone.
You know, they they don't thinkanyone else is living this way.
Um sadly, a lot of people whoare victims of narcissists, they
kind of keep it quiet.
(03:49):
You know, um you worry aboutpeople believing you.
And so a lot of victims tend tokeep it to themselves and feel
like no one else out there isgoing through this.
Uh so yeah, I hope this booklands in the right hands and
those people that, you know,that need to read my story, um,
that it can resonate with themand give them some validation.
SPEAKER_01 (04:12):
Validation is super key because, like you said, it
is difficult to talk about uhbeing in these relationships.
It's you carry shame thatactually should not be your own
shame.
Um, and then you also questionyour reality and who's going to
believe you.
So I love that you have thisbook, and your hope is to create
validation for those who readit.
(04:34):
Uh let's talk about your book alittle bit.
Is it uh it's it's your memoir.
So is it um true to your story?
SPEAKER_02 (04:43):
Yes, it is.
Um yeah.
So I basically start at thebeginning of my encounter with
my ex-husband, and I it's toldin a series of short stories um
all the way through my divorce.
And uh it's chronological, andand I, you know, I'm trying to
show that how how thenarcissism, how the narcissistic
abuse built over the years, youknow, it got more intense as
(05:08):
each year went on.
And um you can kind of seethrough my story.
Narcissism does not get betterwith age, it it tends to get
worse.
And um, I think that I hopefullyshowed that very clearly that,
you know, this is not somethingthat if you um think if you
stick around long enough or ifyou can be a better wife, that
it will get better or go away.
(05:29):
Um, it really doesn't.
So I take the reader from firstmeeting my my now ex-husband all
the way through our divorce andkind of show that whole journey.
SPEAKER_01 (05:39):
Yeah, it definitely escalates.
And I think that's part of themlosing control.
Once you start to identifywhat's going on and you begin to
pull away, they have to escalatetheir level of abuse to keep you
under their control.
SPEAKER_02 (05:57):
Definitely, yeah.
I mean, that's a good word,escalation.
I mean, that's what I saw in mymarriage, um, year after year,
and especially at the end, youknow, it it got pretty volatile
at the end.
Um, my my situation was neverphysical.
Um, it was all psychological andmental.
But I think it was, you know,probably not too far away from
(06:21):
turning physical at the end.
Um, it there was just theescalation that you mentioned.
Um, and I think that was some ofme figuring this out and putting
these pieces together andsaying, wait a minute, maybe
it's not me.
Maybe it's you.
Um, and that does create morevolatility in the relationship.
SPEAKER_01 (06:41):
Now you you said you read a lot of books.
Do you use some of thatinformation that you learned in
the academic books?
And do you put that informationinto your book?
SPEAKER_02 (06:51):
Yeah, I did.
I I put um a lot of terminologyand um a lot of like checklists.
I put some checklists of, youknow, how do how do you know
that you are being emotionallyabused and uh just red flags to
look for.
So um that was all very much uhyou know things that I had read
and studied on, um, but alsovery not so academic, you know,
(07:14):
very relevant.
I mean, you can read down theselists and say, yeah, that that's
me.
I can check off every one ofthese boxes.
And, you know, then then youagain it's that validation.
You realize I think there is aproblem and it's not all in my
head.
SPEAKER_01 (07:29):
I think that's a really important piece, too, of
using the academic informationyou found and making it
relatable because narcissism isa term that is so overused, it's
a huge buzzword.
And a lot of times it's not usedappropriately, I think, in
especially in social media.
SPEAKER_02 (07:50):
Yeah, I mean, you know, it's funny.
Um the people that you hearreferred to as narcissists,
oftentimes those people are notnarcissists.
Um, I think the general publicwants to call anyone who is
pompous, overconfident, andarrogant, we want to call them
narcissists.
Uh, and maybe some of them are,but that is not the definition.
(08:11):
Um, there is is so it's so muchdeeper than that.
And in fact, um, my ex-husbandbeing a covert narcissist, if
you met him, you would think hewas anything but a narcissist.
In fact, you would think he wascompletely the opposite.
So that's the danger.
You know, what we what weenvision as being narcissistic
(08:32):
is is really flawed.
And the ones who are dangerousare the ones that you would
never guess uh could be anarcissist.
SPEAKER_01 (08:40):
I agree with that.
And uh, you know, people mayhave narcissistic traits, but
that doesn't mean that theyactually have narcissistic
personality disorder.
The the overt ones, they're soblatantly narcissistic, you know
to keep your distance and youknow to keep yourself safe and
your guard up.
But the covert ones, like youmentioned, there's they're the
(09:00):
sneaky ones.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat?
SPEAKER_02 (09:04):
Yeah, so the covert, um, you know, it really puts the
victim in a in a tough spotbecause the covert narcissist is
out there acting in public likethey are so humble and they're
so kind, they're they're soempathetic, they're caring,
they're generous.
They're not any of these things.
Um, it's literally a mask thatthey're wearing.
(09:25):
And so it makes it hard for thevictim because then everyone on
the outside thinks, you know,they they thought I was married
to this great guy.
He's so great, you know,everything is so wonderful.
Um, but that's not how he wasbehind closed doors.
So in my case, um, and andprobably other victims have have
lived this as well, you know, Isort of perpetuated this lie for
(09:48):
him for a lot of years.
I was conditioned very early onto protect him, really, to um
protect his image.
And so I was not giving anyoneany indication that there was
anything wrong behind closeddoors.
In fact, to the contrary, I wasout there saying, Yeah, he's
great.
He's such a great husband.
Um, so yeah, and then you know,you back yourself into a corner.
(10:11):
And these covert narcissists,they are, like you say, they are
tricky.
Um, because then I've basicallypainted myself into a corner
saying, you know, singing hispraises out in public, and then
to have to turn that around andsay, well, really, he was
abusive.
You know, and then you reallyworry, well, who's gonna believe
me?
So it is um it's it's a verysticky spot to be in.
SPEAKER_01 (10:35):
It is, especially when they begin their smear
campaign against you.
Yes, yes.
And a lot of times they'll dothat before you even get out of
the relationship, before youthey they're laying the
groundwork already to make youlook like the crazy one, so that
by the time you're ready tostart telling people the truth
of what's going on, you'vealready been discredited amongst
(10:58):
a lot of people.
SPEAKER_02 (10:59):
Definitely.
Um, I I would say in my case, Idid not give my ex-husband very
much lead time when I left.
Um, he did not believe for asecond that I would ever leave
him.
Um he he was just very confidentthat that you know he had me
stuck and there was no gettingout.
So I don't think he wasnecessarily launching a smear
(11:22):
campaign before I left, but um,I do believe now that the minute
I left, that's when the smearcampaign started.
And it's still ongoing, youknow, two years post-divorce,
um, he is still out thererunning this smear campaign.
And it's interesting.
Um, it's something that I neverthought he would do.
(11:42):
I guess I was just living insome fantasy world.
I don't know.
Um, but it the smear campaignwas the one thing that caught me
off guard.
I really didn't expect that.
And I think um I thought at theend of the day people would
believe me, uh, and they theydidn't.
So that has been probably todate one of my biggest struggles
(12:05):
um dealing with the loss offriendships.
Um, I've had to just basicallyturn people away.
I've had to walk away from thesefriendships because, you know, I
just it's not healthy anymore.
So that has been um knowing thatthe smear campaign is ongoing is
it has been really difficult forme, I have to admit.
SPEAKER_01 (12:26):
Yeah, it's uh I mean, obviously being in the
abusive relationship is awfuland you're just in pure
confusion and survival mode.
But it's difficult once you getout of the relationship too,
especially if there's anythingthat that ties you to that
person.
You know, if you're married andyou have to get divorced and
(12:47):
there's perhaps you own thingstogether that needs to get
split, or you have childrentogether, then they can still
hold things over you and startthe post-separation abuse
portion of everything.
SPEAKER_02 (13:02):
Yeah, and it's interesting.
Um, I so my my kids were both umgrown when I left.
So we did not have to deal withcustody and family court.
But it's interesting.
Um, I have no contact with myex.
I haven't seen him since thedivorce and have not spoken to
him.
But he still finds ways to getat me, you know, and and even if
(13:23):
they don't have access to you,it's amazing how they will never
let that anger go.
I mean, the the idea that youleft them, that they were
discarded, um, that goes againstevery rule in their playbook.
And and I think they just, yeah,they they don't ever quite let
that go.
SPEAKER_01 (13:43):
They don't because you're property to them.
You belong to them.
And how dare you leave them?
SPEAKER_02 (13:50):
Right.
Um, property.
That is a great, that's a greatanalogy.
Um, yeah, that's that's all thatthe victim is to the narcissist,
is a piece of property.
You know, it's it's an ownershipsituation.
Um, it's not a two-way, youknow, loving relationship.
It is, I, I, uh, I own you, andum, you know, that's it.
(14:14):
You you're my property.
So um very, very flawedthinking, and it's um extremely
toxic.
SPEAKER_01 (14:21):
Horribly toxic.
Uh one thing with that I'velearned with talking to
individuals and even some veryclose friends of mine who are
post um abusive relationships,and even some who are currently
in relationships that I identifyas a narcissistic relationship.
(14:43):
One question they always haveis, what did I do wrong?
And where is that?
Why did he change?
And in these cases, it's all myall my friends have been female
and these individuals have beenfemale and their abusers are all
male.
But why did he change or whatdid I do to make him change?
And I think it's difficult tofinally get to that realization
(15:03):
of that person you fell in lovewith actually never existed.
SPEAKER_02 (15:07):
Correct.
I mean, it's it's all a mask,you know, it's that cycle of
love bombing.
Um, my ex-husband looked likethe greatest catch in the world,
you know.
He he was smart, he was um sointerested in me, he was
over-the-top gifts andattention.
And I mean, you know, everybodyaround me is like, wow, he is a
(15:28):
great guy.
Um that that person neverexisted.
You know, that was only, he wasonly showing that side of him to
kind of get me hooked.
Um, and then all of thatchanges.
You know, when once you getmarried and once that they kind
of feel that ownership over you,it slowly starts to, that mask
starts to slip.
(15:48):
And and it's kind of a, youknow, it's not an overnight
thing.
I think it's more of a gradual,it it evolves.
Narcissism, that that abuse, itjust evolves.
And um, yeah, it's it's notalways overnight.
SPEAKER_01 (16:03):
Right.
And it's very personalizedbecause they react with however
you react.
So if you're, you know, ifthey're verbally abusive or
degrading and you stand yourground and you say that's not
okay, and I'm not going totolerate that, then they might
might be apologetic for a while.
And then they can be, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (16:23):
I mean, they they can.
I I I honestly don't think myex-husband ever apologized once
in 29 years of marriage.
I mean, if he did, I certainlycan't remember it.
Um, but yeah, if they apologize,it's not most of the time, it's
not genuine, you know.
And uh those types ofconversations that that you were
talking about, um, you know, inin my situation, if I brought up
(16:47):
anything that he had done wrong,um, he would find a way to turn
it around to where I had donesomething wrong.
And, you know, it if you try tobring up a simple point, you
know, hey, can we talk aboutthis?
Because I didn't like the way,you know, you said this to me or
did this, um, that mightescalate into a two-hour
(17:07):
discussion.
And at the end of thatdiscussion, it's just circular
talking, you know.
And at the end of thatdiscussion, it will all somehow
come back to me that I was theone that did something wrong.
And really it's exhausting.
And after a time, I just stoppedbringing things up in my
marriage.
It was like I don't have theenergy to deal with the lecture
that's going to ensue.
(17:28):
And then it's all going to be myfault anyway.
So I think as victims, we learnto just keep things to
ourselves.
SPEAKER_01 (17:35):
Absolutely.
And then when you get into thatcircular conversation, I forgot.
Oh my gosh, I don't know how Iforgot the circular
conversation.
But it's almost like you want itto get over with.
So eventually you end upapologizing.
I think initially you apologizebecause you are fooled that
somehow this was all of your owndoing and your own fault.
(17:58):
But as time goes on and youstart to realize what's
happening, you'll just apologizejust to get it over with.
SPEAKER_02 (18:06):
Oh, I I did it all the time.
Um, you know, and then you'reyou're angry with yourself for
for caving.
You know, I caved every singletime.
But honestly, I mean, it's likebeing interrogated.
And these lectures could be, Imean, I think the longest one
that I ever sat through was overfour hours long.
It's exhausting, you know, andand his aim is just to wear me
(18:29):
down so that I will then justgive in and say, yes, you're
right, I'm wrong, I'm sorry.
And yeah, every single timethat's how it ended because I
was just exhausted and I wantedto leave the room.
Um, so yeah, it was um that thatreally can do a number um on you
psychologically when youbasically are just to escape the
(18:52):
room and to escape thesituation, you take on blame
that's not yours and youapologize for something you
didn't even do.
SPEAKER_01 (19:01):
And then that screws with you even after you get out.
And you look back and oh mygosh, I've done this so many
times.
I've looked back and I'vethought, did that really happen?
Or did I exact did I exaggeratewhat happened?
SPEAKER_02 (19:15):
You gaslight yourself.
SPEAKER_01 (19:17):
Yes.
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (19:18):
Yeah, you really do.
Um, and and if I were to thenbring that up to my husband, you
know, it would be, well, there'ssomething wrong with you because
you are too sensitive.
You know, that shouldn't havebothered you.
And therefore, you know, eitheryou're too sensitive or you're
remembering it wrong, or youmisinterpreted it.
And then you start to think,well, I don't know, maybe I did.
(19:41):
And then this whole gaslightingyourself thing starts.
So um, it's a lot to untangle uhwhen you finally get out.
SPEAKER_01 (19:49):
Oh, it definitely is.
And uh mine would always say, Iwas just joking.
Oh, I mean, some things you'relike, how is this a joke?
How was that even a joke?
I don't understand how you cansay that was a joke.
But yeah, it you're just yourwhole reality is so turned
upside down.
Uh, did you have a final momentthat was your last straw, or did
(20:12):
you could you sense that therewas going to be an end to this?
SPEAKER_02 (20:16):
Yeah, you know, my physical health was really
deteriorating um in thismarriage, uh, those last year or
two.
So, you know, I was havingchronic pain, stomach aches,
headaches, anxiety attacks allthe time.
And I kind of realized I alwayswasn't going to survive.
You know, it just was notsustainable.
Our bodies are not meant to livein this constant state of fight
(20:39):
or flight.
And that stress will reallywreak havoc on your physical
health.
So that was that was going on.
And, you know, just his theabuse was escalating to a point
that I was really feeling like Iwas in danger.
And I remember I was doing a lotof research late at night and
reading, and I came across apost on Instagram late one
(21:03):
night, and it was talking abouttrue intimacy.
And it was saying that trueintimacy is not necessarily
physical.
It's more about being able tolook at your partner and say, I
feel safe with you.
And I read that and I thought, Idon't feel safe, you know, and
and I asked myself, have I everfelt safe in this marriage?
(21:24):
And really my answer was no.
So it was sort of the catalystto kind of get me thinking, you
know, with my health andeverything, and I think I need
to get out of here.
So it was a it was a quickturnaround.
Once I realized I needed to getout, I mean, in a matter of a
few months, I was I was gone.
SPEAKER_01 (21:42):
Yeah, I think that's pretty common, you know, across
there are some stories that area little bit different, but I
think there's usually something,a catalyst that gets your mind
in motion of this is notsustainable.
And for some, there's anultimate last straw of, you
know, I've been thinking I wasgoing to get out and now I I'm
(22:04):
definitely done.
SPEAKER_02 (22:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't know that I had a reallast straw, but um the last few
months, like I say, I was reallyliving in fear.
Um, I really feared that thingswere going to turn physical.
And um, he was just getting moreand more volatile.
And it just, you know, it's kindof all the stars kind of aligned
for me.
And um, I just knew when it wastime to go, I had to go.
(22:28):
And so I'm I'm glad that thingskind of fell into place like
they did.
Um, I think for a lot of women,that's not necessarily the case.
And so um I was I feel verylucky.
SPEAKER_01 (22:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, those of us who are ableto get out, and I can't say
unscathed because all of us havesome sort of scars from these
relationships.
But okay, so I'm gonna ask youthe question that is it's one of
my most annoying questions uhthat I hear people ask.
But you know, you were in thismarriage for a long time.
(23:03):
How like when did you realizethat it was an abusive
relationship and why did youstay?
I hate that question.
SPEAKER_02 (23:10):
But uh that's yeah, that's the that's the the
million dollar question, right?
Um when did I realize it wasabusive?
You know, I don't think Irealized until 20 plus years in
that it was abusive.
Um and I think that maybesomewhere deep inside I knew it
was abusive, but I told myselfit wasn't.
It was a coping mechanism um tonormalize it, you know, just to
(23:33):
just to say this is howeverybody lives, this is normal,
um, and really just kind oflooked past it.
Why did I stay?
I think, you know, it's acomplicated answer to a
seemingly easy question.
Um I think that I, like I say, Inormalized the abuse.
I told myself this is okay.
(23:54):
Um, I had kids, and that reallyplayed into my decision making.
Um, in retrospect, I did notmake the right decision.
Um, I for a good part of thereason that I stayed was for my
kids, you know.
And I think society tells us youkeep your family together, you
don't um break up the family,you don't want your children to
(24:15):
be children of divorce.
And so I was listening to thosesocietal norms, you know, stay
for the kids.
Um now I know, being on theother side, that staying for the
kids is sometimes the worstthing you can do for the kids.
Uh hindsight is 2020.
But yeah, um that, and then Ithink there's just this
embarrassment factor too.
(24:36):
I mean, it's a lot to have tobasically confess and say, this
has been a horrible marriage andit's been abusive, and I never
told anybody.
And, you know, then people aregonna say, well, why didn't you
tell somebody?
Well, I don't know, you know, Imean, and so to have to flip the
script and and say, yeah, I'vereally kind of been living this
(24:57):
lie with him, um, it seems likea lot to take on.
It's it's a daunting, it's adaunting idea of of leaving a
narcissist.
And then of course, um, anotherthing that played into that was
just fear.
You know, I really was fearfulof what he might do if I left.
So it's a, you know, it there'sa lot of reasons why why people
(25:19):
stay.
SPEAKER_01 (25:19):
Yeah.
And, you know, especially whenhe's covert, it's difficult to
really pinpoint that it's abusebecause you you can explain some
of the behavior away, or you canthink of, well, maybe it's just
anger management, it's stress,it's, you know, all these
different things that it's notis not this blatant abuse.
(25:40):
And even for those who haveblatant abuse, even for those
individuals who are going to theER with bruises and broken
bones, they still have adifficult time leaving.
And you pointed out a reallygood reason, legitimate fear.
SPEAKER_03 (25:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (25:54):
Because, you know, that time you leave, that's the
most dangerous point ofanybody's life.
SPEAKER_02 (26:00):
It really is.
I mean, that's the scariestpoint is when when you are
leaving.
Um, you mentioned about angermanagement, and that's
interesting because at one pointin my marriage, um, I decided
that was the problem, that hehad anger management issues.
And I told him, and um I toldhim that I guess this was, you
know, I didn't really threatento leave, but he might have been
(26:22):
a little bit concerned thatmaybe the idea was spinning
around in my head.
And um, so he said that he wouldgo to therapy um for anger
management.
And I thought, wow, you know, Ican't believe he's actually, you
know, he's actually going to dosomething, like admit that he
might have a problem.
And so he found a therapist andand he went several sessions.
(26:45):
And then um, then the therapistwanted to see us both.
Or I guess he wanted me to gowith him.
I don't know.
But anyway, I remember going totherapy and and I thought I was
going to hear how, you know,yeah, he has anger management
problems, and here's how we'regoing to deal with them.
Instead, the therapist tells mestraight up in his office, he
said, you know, I don't thinkyour husband has anger
(27:08):
management problems.
And that was a huge blow.
I mean, and what had happenedwas narcissists loved to go to
therapy.
And I didn't know this at thetime.
But he just went in there andcharmed his way through all
these sessions and acted likethe most humble, gracious, you
know, considerate man that everlived.
(27:28):
And the therapist was totallybought it.
And so I leave there thinkingthis whole thing has now
backfired on me.
Because now he's saying, I can'tbelieve you made me go to
therapy and I don't even have aproblem.
See, you're the one with theproblem.
So that set me back a few steps.
You know, then you're thinking,well, maybe it's me.
Um, so yeah, that whole angermanagement thing, that was, I
(27:51):
thought I had, I thought I haddiagnosed him.
And uh yeah.
Anyway, it was narcissism,actually.
But I wouldn't find that out forseveral more years.
SPEAKER_01 (28:01):
Well, and therapy is that's it, it frustrates that
frustrates me too.
I uh therapy is great.
I love therapy.
I go to therapy.
SPEAKER_02 (28:09):
It can be great.
Yeah, it definitely can begreat.
Um if you have the righttherapist.
SPEAKER_01 (28:14):
Right.
You have to have the righttherapist.
And honestly, I don't know ifthere's any situation in an
abusive relationship that Iwould ever recommend couples
therapy, because when you go tocouples therapy, you're already
admitting or taking on partownership of the relationship
not working.
(28:35):
You're going into work on therelationship together.
And it's almost this admittanceof, okay, the there's something
that I'm going to have to workon too.
And I feel like what it does,especially when you get these
really talented narcissists orothers with personality
disorders that are able tomanipulate, they're able to take
(28:55):
that situation and validateeverything that they are doing
to you.
SPEAKER_02 (28:59):
That's exactly what happened in my situation.
So we um the last year or somaybe the last six months, um,
my husband actually wanted to goto marriage counseling.
And I agreed, um, not knowingthat this that is not advisable
when you're with a narcissist.
Like you said, the whole thing,um, we probably did 10 sessions
(29:23):
with this with this therapist.
Um, fortunately, this lady wasreally good.
Um, and that's not always thecase.
But we did about 10 sessions,and basically these sessions
were him sitting on the couchtelling her everything I was
doing wrong.
And I really didn't talk for formuch of the sessions.
Um it all worked out in my favorin the end because after about
(29:47):
the 10th session, um, in themiddle of the session, the
therapist stopped us.
She looked at him and she said,I'm sorry, but I cannot continue
to to see you.
And I my mouth was just, youknow, I couldn't believe it.
And she said, um, she said, youcome in here week after week and
(30:09):
you tell me everything that iswrong with your wife.
And she said, you are not ableto see things from other
people's perspectives, and youcannot put yourself in someone
else's shoes.
So she said, as much as I wouldlike to continue to take your
money, I can't do it.
And she told us, she said, um,I, you know, basically she told
him, don't come back.
(30:29):
And that was a shock.
I was like, she just kicked himout of therapy.
Like I've never heard of atherapist kicking a coin out of
therapy.
Um, but yeah, it happened.
And that was some majorvalidation for me.
SPEAKER_01 (30:44):
For sure.
That I that does not happen veryoften.
And that's thank God you had agood therapist there.
SPEAKER_02 (30:50):
Yeah, yeah.
She um I think the uh one of thelast kind of exercises that she
had us do in her office was veryinteresting.
Um, she asked us both, she said,tell me what's on your bucket
list.
And I thought, what a strangequestion for her to ask.
Like, why is she asking that?
But she had motive.
Um, so she asked him first.
(31:11):
And he started, I mean, he wenton for 10 minutes.
You know, I want to travel hereand I want to do this and this
and that.
And he went on and on and on.
And finally, it was my turn.
And she looked at me and shesaid, Tell me what's on your
bucket list.
And I could not think of onesingle thing.
Not one single thing.
And she started coaching me andshe says, Well, I mean, is is
(31:32):
there somewhere you want totravel?
Like, and I said, I I don'tknow.
I don't think so.
And she said, Well, you know, doyou have any goals?
Like, what are your goals?
And I said, I I I don't know.
And um, I think the reason thatshe did that exercise was to
illustrate that he had basicallystolen my entire identity.
(31:55):
You know, I didn't know who Iwas, I didn't know what I
wanted.
Um, I was just, you know, I Ihad just given my whole self to
him.
And um I think it was the nextsession that she actually kicked
him out of therapy.
So um, yeah, I guess it waspretty telling.
At the time it seemed like astrange question, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (32:14):
Wow, that's because they're parasites.
They suck everything out of youuntil you're just a shell of
what you used to be.
SPEAKER_02 (32:21):
Yes, definitely they do.
Um you know, you don't knowyourself coming out of that type
of marriage.
You really have to say, I don'teven I don't know who I am.
Who, what do I want?
What are my goals?
What do I want to do with mylife?
Um, because I really didn'tknow.
SPEAKER_01 (32:37):
Yeah, and it's you can't even say that you have to
re-identify or, you know, createa new personality because you
don't even know who you areanymore.
It's like you actually have toidentify, not re-identify.
You have to recall who you are.
And I mean, you come out adifferent person, a different
(32:58):
version of yourself, you know,eventually after you put the
work in.
But it's it's hard to rememberwho you were going into it, even
if it's a short relationship.
I think they're just so skillfulat destroying who you are that
it's hard to even remember whoyou who you're supposed to be.
SPEAKER_02 (33:15):
Yeah, it definitely it is.
Um, and like I say, I got intothis um relationship at age 19.
So it was, yeah, I had to reallystop and think like, what do I
want to be when I grow up?
I mean, you know, I I don'tknow.
I don't, I just you come outwith so many questions.
Um, you really have to findyourself again.
SPEAKER_01 (33:35):
Yeah, especially at 19.
I mean, at 19, you don't knowwho you are.
So you haven't even fullyfigured that out before he just
wiped everything else out.
SPEAKER_02 (33:44):
Yes, completely.
SPEAKER_01 (33:46):
I wanted to bring up, you mentioned, you know,
what society says as far asnorms and marriages.
I feel like when you are avictim of an abusive
relationship, society,everything you do is wrong,
according to society, no matterwhat you do.
Because if you're a parent, uh,you're wrong for staying in that
(34:07):
relationship and exposing yourchildren to an abusive
relationship.
But if you leave with yourchildren, then you're wrong
because you're splitting up thefamily.
SPEAKER_02 (34:18):
Yeah, you can't win, you know.
SPEAKER_01 (34:20):
No.
SPEAKER_02 (34:20):
And yeah, you you you split up the family, you
break up the family, you andthat was one thing that my
ex-husband used um to guilt meafter I left, you know.
I can't believe you're breakingup the family.
And I did.
I felt bad, you know, not badenough to go back, fortunately.
Um, but yeah, it it is reallyyou can't win.
You're either you're wrong forstaying and you're wrong for
(34:43):
leaving.
SPEAKER_01 (34:44):
Yeah.
You tried too hard, you didn'ttry hard enough.
It's it and it's hard.
And especially if you've beengaslight those many years, and
you like you mentioned earlier,you gaslight yourself.
So then you're questioning ifyou're doing the right thing,
even years later.
SPEAKER_02 (35:02):
Yeah, you really, um, you really do.
And because it is a bigdecision, you know.
Um, and there are a lot ofthings to, I mean, I was
concerned about how it wouldaffect my kids, obviously.
Um, and and it's so there's alot to unpack there.
Um, you've got to think aboutjust where where do I start?
What do I do?
(35:22):
Um, because I really didn'tknow, you know, I had never
really worked.
And um it was just it was a bitoverwhelming.
But um in the end, it, you know,like I say, it all kind of came
together for me.
And and I feel very fortunate.
SPEAKER_01 (35:36):
Speaking of your kids, did they ever talk to you
about any of this?
Since they're gr older?
SPEAKER_02 (35:42):
Yeah, yeah.
So that's the nice thing.
Um, because they they are older,um, you know, they're they were
over 18 when I when I divorced,so we didn't have family court
and all of that.
And I felt like because they'reboth adults, um, I felt like I
could talk to them about why Ileft, you know.
Um, and that we had nice adultconversations about it.
(36:04):
And we've talked extensively,you know, um, both of them were
very much in support of meleaving.
Um so I was I was lucky thatthat I had their support behind
me.
They uh both think that I shouldhave left years ago.
But, you know, again, hindsightis 2020.
So we have had um gooddiscussions around it.
And you know, they both stillhave a relationship with their
(36:24):
father.
He he is their father after all.
And sometimes I have to remindmyself that can be hard.
Um, but they do.
They they do have a relationshipwith him and as they should, as
they should.
But they also realize that thathe is, you know, not
neurotypical.
And so um I think that'simportant.
SPEAKER_01 (36:47):
So what steps did you first of all, when you left,
how did you leave?
SPEAKER_02 (36:54):
So I left slowly.
I didn't want him to know what Iwas doing.
So what I did was um I startedstaying at my parents' house and
making excuses for why I neededto stay over there.
And uh after about two weeks,you know, he started saying,
What are you doing?
Like, are you coming back?
What are you doing?
And finally I said to him, I Ijust need to take some time for
(37:18):
myself.
I'm not doing well and and Ijust need a break.
And that was kind of how I gotaway.
Um and then, you know, I becauseI because I couldn't, I didn't
have the courage to just say tohim, I'm leaving.
So I kept up this for almost ayear.
And you know, we were separatedfor a year before I could file
for divorce.
I just didn't have the courageto do it.
(37:40):
Um, but yeah, it was a gradual,kind of a gradual leaving
process.
I knew I wasn't coming back.
He didn't know that.
Um, I was petrified to tell himthat, you know, I wasn't coming
back and that I wanted adivorce.
So I felt like leaving slowlykind of softened the blow and
made the environment a littlebit safer for me.
(38:01):
And that's why I did it thatway.
I didn't go no contact, like youknow, they will tell you to do
when you're dealing with anarcissist.
To me, that felt dangerous.
So I sort of went low contactand just sort of faded out, you
know, faded out the conversationbecause for me that felt like
what I needed to do to, youknow, be safe.
SPEAKER_01 (38:24):
That is such a key thing for, you know, anybody
listening is that you can haveall these professionals telling
you the way to do it.
You can have other survivorstelling you the way they did it
or what their recommendationsare.
But it's each victim, eachsurvivor, they know their abuser
(38:45):
like nobody else.
And you know what is the safething to do, you know what is a
dangerous thing to do.
And you know, for all the peoplewho say, Why did you say that
like we were talking aboutbefore, legitimate fear is is
one of the reasons.
And people, you you know yourabuser.
(39:07):
You know, if you just abruptlyleave, he's going to come for
you and he's going to harm you,if not kill you.
Yeah.
And if you know that, then don'tdo it that way.
Or, you know, or you escape inthe middle of the night, never
to be heard or seen from again.
You know, whatever your safeexit plan is that feels most
comfortable, because I don'tthink any of it's going to feel
(39:30):
100% comfortable.
SPEAKER_02 (39:31):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (39:32):
But yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (39:33):
Well, and and I think another real key point
there with the exit plan is umyou can't let your abuser know
that you have an exit plan.
Um, because that will really, Imean, that won't end well.
Um, and the other thing is likeyou say, you know your abuser
better than people on theoutside do.
And so it's easy for people onthe outside to say, oh, you
(39:57):
know, he would never hurt you.
You don't have to worry aboutthat.
Well, you know, okay, maybe heprobably wouldn't hurt me, but I
can't say definitively that hewouldn't.
So why take the chance?
You know, I mean, maybe I'mbeing overly overly cautious
here, but if there's the tiniestchance um of being hurt in this,
(40:20):
I mean, you know, if there's thetiniest chance of losing your
life.
Why would you take that chance?
So you really do have to listento your own intuition.
SPEAKER_01 (40:29):
Yeah.
And overly cautious is waybetter than the alternative of,
you know, being too brazen andlosing your life because you
didn't want to be overlycautious.
SPEAKER_02 (40:40):
Right.
Yeah, I totally agree with that.
Only you know how that person isapt to react.
And, you know, like I say, ifthere's this tiniest chance that
it could um end with violence,then you know, you need to
factor that in.
SPEAKER_01 (40:54):
Right.
And and for those people who sayhe would never do that or he's
never shown displayed any signsof aggression or violence, well,
he also has never been facedwith his property leaving him.
SPEAKER_02 (41:09):
Right.
And narcissists can have, Imean, if if things get when they
start to spiral out of control,that's when they get dangerous.
When when they start to losecontrol and start into this
downward spiral, they can havesomething called a psychic
break.
And, you know, it and ithappens.
And that's what you don't knowabout.
(41:29):
Like, could this escalate into apsychic break?
If so, it could get dangerous.
Uh, and that is something tokeep in mind.
I mean, you narcissists don'taccept the word no.
So when you leave, even thoughthey've never been physical in
the past, uh that does not meanthat they won't start.
SPEAKER_01 (41:48):
Right.
And much like how we each haveour, you know, last straw or our
gut feelings, they also havewhat in their mind what is I've
lost everything.
And if they get to that pointwhere they feel like they truly
have lost everything, then it's,you know, no holds barred.
Like full systems go, I need togo in massive control, you know,
(42:14):
regaining control mode.
And who knows what that's goingto be.
You can have somebody who neverlaid a hand on somebody go all
the way.
SPEAKER_02 (42:22):
Yeah, absolutely.
So um, really, you know, that'ssomething to think about when
you are formulating an exitplan.
SPEAKER_01 (42:31):
Yeah.
And then so what happens afteryou leave?
Because especially you, you weremarried for over 20 years.
You were 19 when you gotmarried, and you know, didn't
have a a a career.
So what do you do?
How do you rebuild your life?
SPEAKER_02 (42:47):
Slowly.
Um, you know, it has taken timeto just kind of figure out what
what I want to do.
Um, and for me, I mean, it'sit's a lot of it is just about
healing and really taking thingsone day at a time.
You know, I'm I'm not too farout of this um marriage.
I've I've been divorced twoyears now.
(43:09):
And it's really been, these lasttwo years have been it's a lot
of growth.
It's been really good.
But, you know, you have to learnhow to, in my case, you know,
being able to wake up in themorning and say, I can make all
my decisions.
I can decide how I want to spendmy day.
It's going from zero freedom tocomplete freedom.
(43:30):
So it's a lot, you know, it'sum, it's overwhelming and it's
scary, but it's also veryexciting at the same time.
So uh these last couple of yearshave just been a lot about me
figuring out who I am and what Iwant to do and where I want to
live and just being able to makelike these adult decisions that
I've never been able to makebefore.
(43:51):
Um it's been it's been fun.
I I say it's it's a bitoverwhelming, but definitely um
it's it's been a good, it's beena good two years.
SPEAKER_01 (44:00):
It's so liberating, right?
You're using free.
Um and I think it's important topoint out too, with you know,
each victim takes however longto get out of a relationship.
If they go back however manytimes, that's you know, that's
an individual thing.
And it's that's the same thingwith post-abusive relationship
(44:21):
healing.
You know, that time, there's noset time.
There shouldn't, there's not ayou should feel totally fine in
a year or two years or fiveyears or 10 years or whatever.
That's all very individualizedas well.
SPEAKER_02 (44:35):
Yeah, and I think, you know, for a lot of a lot of
victims of narcissistic abuse, Imean, you may never fully heal
from it.
It it changes you.
And it has shown, um, studieshave shown that narcissistic
abuse can actually change yourbrain, you know.
Um, so you may never fully heal.
I mean, these are some permanentscars, but we learn to adapt and
(44:59):
move on and find, you know, finda new life for ourselves.
So um it's in the end, it's youknow, even though those scars
are still there, it's okay.
Um, it really is.
Like you you will be able to,you can make it, you can do it.
SPEAKER_01 (45:15):
When you wrote your book, did anything come up?
Was it difficult?
Did you have to take breaks atall?
SPEAKER_02 (45:22):
Um, I did.
The the way that my book kind ofcame about was uh I was in
therapy after after I left, andum I was dealing with a lot of
guilt because my ex was saying,you know, I can't believe you
broke the family up.
I can't believe you know you'veruined our lives.
And and I I was feeling soguilty and thinking, would it be
(45:43):
easier just to go back?
You know, I don't want to goback, but would it just make it
easy on everybody else?
And I was talking to mytherapist about this, and she
told me, she said, I want you togo home and I want you to take
out a pad of paper and a pen,and I want you to write down
every traumatic event that youcan remember in the last 29
years.
(46:03):
And then when you start feelingguilty, I want you to go back,
take that sheet of paper out andread it.
And so I did, I did that.
And um ultimately when I decidedto write this book, that's what
I did.
I took that piece of paper backout and I just started telling
the stories of of each one ofthese things.
And um, yeah, so that's that'skind of how it came, how it came
(46:26):
about.
And it it was reallytherapeutic.
Um, I think writing stuff down,it's sort of a release.
You feel like, you know, you canlet go of that now.
And so I wasn't, um, I waspleasantly surprised to see how
cathartic it would be to write.
Um, so yeah, it was it was endedup being a good thing for me.
SPEAKER_01 (46:47):
Yeah, I think that's um I had my I had a therapist
that actually did something verysimilar, had me, but didn't have
me physically write down mystory, had me imagine writing
down my story in a scrollbecause I was I came in the
first session and I was like,I'm leaving.
And then the next one I waslike, I'm pretty sure I'm going
to leave, but I'm not quite, youknow, there.
(47:11):
And then she had me do that andthen imagine myself reading my
story.
And I kept saying, I feel sosorry.
I was completely disassociated.
You know, I was I feel so sorryfor that woman and I'm so angry
for that woman.
And then it took a couple timesof rereading that in my mind to
(47:31):
admit or realize that's me.
It's not this story I just read.
So yeah, I think that umwriting, you know, some people
have written their stuff out andthen they burned it.
SPEAKER_02 (47:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (47:44):
You know, they never want to tell anyone.
But there is somethingcathartic, like you said.
SPEAKER_02 (47:48):
Yeah, I understand now why people would do that.
Um, it's a it's a release.
You feel like once you'vedocumented it, now you can let
it go.
SPEAKER_01 (47:57):
Yeah.
Um what was I gonna say?
Oh, uh another another thingthat keeps popping up with
victims or survivors who haveeither chosen to tell their
story on a podcast or havewritten a book is their concern
for others that if they don'tknow the f their full story of
(48:20):
now my loved ones, my friends,family, they're going to see my
story in all of its glory.
And they're, you know, the theauthors or the victim survivor,
whatever you want to uh chooseto be called, um, is their
concern of how other people aregoing to be able to handle
hearing that story.
(48:40):
Did that ever cross your mind atall?
SPEAKER_02 (48:42):
It did.
In fact, um I, you know, I hadtrouble writing when I when I
first started because of that.
I, you know, I keep thinkingabout all of these people that I
know that are going to read thisbook.
And I'm thinking, I I don'tthink I want to tell that.
You know, I don't, that'sembarrassing.
Um, what I ultimately had to dowas I had to just kind of block
(49:03):
all those people out and pretendlike I'm writing to other
victims out there that are stuckin these marriages, you know,
they can't find a way out.
And I just had to forget thatall these other people that I
knew would be reading this book.
Um, because that is hard.
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, it's it's there'sthere's something a little bit
(49:23):
embarrassing about it, but atthe same time, you know, it's
freeing.
It's like, okay, here's my storyand take it or leave it.
And so yeah, it's but it's umit's hard to put yourself out
there.
SPEAKER_01 (49:37):
It is, it's so exposing.
SPEAKER_00 (49:38):
It's like you're standing out in the middle of
you know, a busy city and likecompletely exposed.
SPEAKER_02 (49:45):
Yes, yes.
It's um it's hard.
It is hard.
But then when you again turnyour shift to turn your um
thinking over to other victimsout there that are, you know,
that are suffering, um, andthinking, well, if this can help
them in any way, uh, it's worthit.
SPEAKER_01 (50:05):
What kind of feedback did you get from
people?
SPEAKER_02 (50:10):
Um so a lot of my family doesn't know about my
book, honestly.
Um, but those that have read it,uh, family and friends that have
read it, uh, I mean, I've gottenreally good feedback.
Um, and I, you know, I feel goodabout it.
I I didn't anticipate thefeedback being as good as it has
been, uh, because you know, Ijust didn't feel that confident,
(50:31):
honestly.
But uh it's been good.
And I I know some therapists umare using it with uh some some
of their clients, and that makesme feel really good.
So yeah, the feedback has beenvery positive.
SPEAKER_01 (50:44):
Do you have any plans for another book?
SPEAKER_02 (50:47):
Um I don't currently, but I certainly
wouldn't be opposed to it.
Um I I thought the the processwas a very positive one, and uh
I would certainly entertain thethought of doing it again.
I just don't know what I wouldwrite about.
SPEAKER_01 (51:02):
Yeah.
You don't have definitely maybethe the aftermath.
SPEAKER_02 (51:09):
Um yeah, I've kind of thought about it.
Um yeah, we have some ideasswirling around in my head, but
um like I say, I'm still kind ofon this this um plan of taking
things one day at a time.
So I don't really have anydefinitive plans um at all.
And so who knows?
SPEAKER_01 (51:26):
Okay.
Well, if anyone wants to getyour book or if they want to
keep up with any informationthat you may have, uh how would
they get in touch with you orfind the book?
SPEAKER_02 (51:37):
I have a website, it's meajhanks.com, and uh
there's a blog on there, there'sum links to lots of podcasts,
and there's a link to purchasemy book on Amazon.
Um, it's available in umpaperback and ebook.
So you can get it on Amazon andI think pretty much online
anywhere books are sold.
(51:58):
Um so yeah, and then I'm alsoactive on TikTok.
My handle is at npd and me.
SPEAKER_00 (52:06):
Oh, that's a good handle.
SPEAKER_02 (52:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (52:10):
I like that.
Okay.
Um, and so before we close, doyou have any lasting um well
actually first before we dothat, do you have did we miss
anything that you wanted to talkabout?
SPEAKER_02 (52:22):
Um I don't think so.
I think we covered, we coveredthe important stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (52:26):
Okay.
And so do you have any lastingwords of encouragement or wisdom
you would like to leave withlisteners?
SPEAKER_02 (52:33):
Yeah, I think I would just say, you know, if you
are in a relationship that istoxic, that is abusive, um don't
don't waste time thinking thatit's gonna get better, you know,
and thinking that if if you canbetter yourself, that that the
relationship will fix itself.
Um if you're with a narcissist,it's not going to get better.
And I hate to sound dim andgloom, but um you really need to
(52:56):
find your way out of that.
And and it's never too late toleave.
Whether you've been married forfive years or 30 years, um,
there is a path out always.
And and you can definitely finda better life on the other side
of abuse.
SPEAKER_01 (53:11):
Perfect.
Thank you so much, Mia, for yourtime and joining me today.
Thank you.
And thank you for your book.
I'm I'm looking forward toreading it.
SPEAKER_00 (53:19):
Right if I can stay awake.
And not that it's I mean, Ihaven't started it.
It's not like it's putting me tosleep, it's just I'm tired all
the time.
I understand that completely.
Okay.
Well, thank you again.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (53:31):
Thank you again, Mia, for joining me today, and
thank you, Warriors, forlistening.
I've included the links Mia wasreferring to as well as her one
in three profile in the shownotes.
I will be back next week withanother episode for you.
Until then, stay strong.
And wherever you are in yourjourney, always remember you are
(53:52):
not alone.
Find more information, registeras a guest, or leave a review by
going to the websiteonein3podcast.com.
That's the number one the numberthree podcast.com.
Follow one in three onInstagram, Facebook, and Twitter
at one and three podcast.
(54:13):
To help me out, please rememberto rate review and subscribe.
One and three is a point fivePinoy production.
Music written and performed byTim Crow.
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