February 19, 2025 • 41 mins
What if cultural traditions are quietly trapping victims in cycles of abuse? Join us as Dr. Anisha returns to "1 in 3" with a profound exploration of Indian marriage dynamics and their influence on domestic violence. Drawing from her personal experiences and her book, "The Power to Break Free: Surviving Domestic Violence, With a Special Reference to Abuse in Indian Marriages," Dr. Anisha sheds light on the pressures women face within arranged, introduced, and love marriages, and the cultural expectations that can complicate their escape from abusive relationships. Her insights provide a compelling look at the silent battles victims endure and the need for increased awareness and understanding.
Navigate the complex realities of intergenerational households, where victims often find themselves isolated in environments resistant to outside intervention. Dr. Anisha bravely shares her own journey through an abusive marriage, highlighting the struggle to seek help in a setting where family dynamics can either ignore or inadvertently support the abuser. This episode underscores the critical importance of a supportive network and how resources like journaling and pivotal literature have empowered survivors to recognize and break free from detrimental patterns of behavior.
Discover the challenges faced by domestic violence survivors, particularly those from Indian backgrounds in America, as they navigate inadequate support systems. We address the pressing need for culturally sensitive approaches within both mainstream and specialized domestic violence organizations. Through Dr. Anisha's stories of unexpected community support and the stigmas surrounding domestic abuse, we emphasize the power of listening and believing victims. By creating dialogues about healthy relationships, we aim to foster a community that empowers individuals to overcome abuse and build a future of hope.
1in3 guest profile: https://www.1in3podcast.com/guests/anisha-durve/
Nonprofit Website: https://www.power2breakfree.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/power2breakfree/
Nonprofit YouTube: https://youtube.com/@powertobreakfree
Book: https://a.co/d/iLcP73R
Workbook: https://a.co/d/8d3kjaM
Anisha's Meditation App: https://www.picosuite.com/app/bliss
Anisha's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anishadurve/
1 in 3 is intended for mature audiences. Episodes contain explicit content and may be triggering to some.
If you are in the United States and need help right now, call the national domestic violence hotline at 800-799-7233 or text the word “start” to 88788.
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Cover art by Laura Swift Dahlke
Music by Tim Crowe
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi Warriors, welcome to One in Three.
I'm your host, ingrid.
Today Dr Anisha joins me again.
In this episode she discussesthe Indian culture surrounding
relationships and marriages.
She further details howspecific customs may impact
abuse victims.
Drawing from her personalexperience, she goes on to
(00:20):
examine additional hurdlesdomestic violence victims
specific to the Indian culturemay face when seeking help.
Here is Dr Anisha.
Hi, dr Anisha, welcome back.
It's nice to have you again.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited to be here again.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited to be here again.
Yes, so one thing that played arole probably in your personal
experience with domesticviolence, and within a lot of
individuals who experiencedomestic violence, is their
cultural background, and you'rehere today to talk to us a
little bit about that.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Absolutely.
I think sometimes the culturalpiece is often not understood
when community members aretrying to work with victims of
domestic violence and it can besuch a big piece in what keeps
them trapped.
So I think it's reallyimportant to understand that.
So the book that I wrote, thePower to Break Free Surviving
(01:26):
Domestic Violence the subtitle Iwrote in there is with a
special reference to abuse inIndian marriages, because there
was a lot of things from myIndian cultural background that
played into my abuse or made itworse or made it harder for me
to walk away from, and so as Iwas processing my own trauma and
(01:48):
trying to come out of myseven-year abusive marriage, I
needed to really understand allthose subtle cultural nuances
and I realized that I wanted tobe able to share that
information in my own Indiancommunity with other women who
were probably trapped for thesame reasons or thinking the
same things I was thinking, tohelp them understand how to
(02:11):
break free from that culturalconditioning to really be able
to be safe and out of theirabusive relationships.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Okay, so you're talking about marriages within
the Indian community.
So how many is there?
Is it just a straightforwardmarriage or are there different%
of marriages?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
are still arranged marriages in India.
So, coming from a very ancientculture where typically the
(02:52):
parents would arrange themarriages for people, we've seen
that kind of evolve with time.
So in my grandparents' day,when they had arranged marriages
, they would not really even seetheir partner until the day of
the wedding.
Right, and they you like themmeet their family.
The parents might still makethe decision of whether you're
(03:30):
going to get married or not, butthere was a little bit more
openness with meeting multiplepeople and kind of feeling
things out.
Today's generation, I think,even though arranged marriage is
there, there's still a lot morefreedom to meet many people.
You know, with all the datingshows that we have on Netflix
(03:52):
and online these days, there areactually some Indian
matchmaking shows out there thatjust kind of show the arranged
marriage process of it's notjust getting to know that person
, it's getting to know theirwhole family.
And traditionally in India,when a woman gets married, she
moves out of her parents' homeand moves into her husband's
(04:13):
home where he is living with hisparents and often multiple
generations within one household.
So that's kind of still thenorm in India.
Living here in America my wholelife, I will say that there's
another kind of brand ofmarriage that's been created, or
(04:35):
category of marriage which iscalled introduced marriages.
That's what I experienced, andso I didn't go through a typical
arranged marriage where I wasset up with my husband.
But introduced marriage is kindof the equivalent of like a
blind date, where someone issetting you up to meet this
person, except instead of datingyou just decide okay, we're
(04:58):
going to get married.
So it's a kind of fast pacedversion.
You just skip the dating andyou go straight to like being
introduced and hitting it offand deciding to get married.
The parents might still haveinput, but it's really coming
from the couples making thisdecision instead of somebody
else deciding you should getmarried.
(05:19):
And so, for me, I went intothis introduced marriage because
I had a lot of faith in myparents' marriage.
My grandparents, all of myrelatives, majority of them had
all had arranged marriages, andthey were successful marriages
in the sense that they hadcommon values, they were
dedicated to raising theirchildren, there was no strife
(05:41):
apparent, and so I just kind ofreally trusted in this Indian
system, which is how I kind ofgot into my introduced marriage.
We were introduced by a familyfriend.
We spoke on the phone and hitit off.
We met two weeks later, Ibelieve, in person, and a week
(06:04):
after that we were engaged andthen six months later we were
married.
So it was super fast.
And then the third category ofmarriage so we have arranged, we
have introduced, and then thethird category is love marriages
.
So that's kind of what the restof the world experiences is
like you fall in love, youdecide to get married, but in
India only 5% of marriages arelove marriages.
(06:28):
In the Indian community here inAmerica I would say that it's
about 50% introduced marriagesand about 50% love marriages.
So that just kind of gives youa little context in terms of as
we look at Indian marriage.
There's these differentcategories and then that can
(06:51):
make it more challenging to comeout of abuse for various
reasons that we can get intolater.
But hopefully I explained that.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Yes, you did.
That makes sense.
Is there any pressure in theintroduced or the love different
kinds of marriages for atimeline Like for introduced?
Is it like well, really, youshould only be meeting like
three guys before you decide youwant to get married.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
I don't think there's necessarily a timeline like
that.
Sometimes there can be morepressure on the women and for
guys there might be kind of anopen field of they can meet as
many girls as they want to, sothat kind of plays out a little
bit differently.
I would say the pressure comesbecause there is such a strong
(07:40):
expectation in Indian culture toget married.
There's no real wiggle room forwomen who don't want to get
married.
That's just not a cultural normand it's just expected that you
are going to get married.
The marriage age is alsoyounger in India, so most people
are getting married in theirearly to mid-20s and then
(08:01):
there's a lot of pressure,expectation to soon start your
own family, have kids.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
It does seem that there's a different outlook
between the men and the women inthe Indian culture.
What are some of thestereotypes of Indian wives?
Speaker 2 (08:21):
So that's a great question.
I think you know the culturalof indian wives is that you put
your husband first, you know.
So in the western culture we'revery individualistic eastern
cultures, not just india, butyou know all the eastern
countries there's a differentsentiment.
That's not against theindividual, but everything's
(08:43):
about creating harmony for thecommunity, creating harmony for
the family structure, trying tocreate stability with that.
And so, because of thatexpectation, indian women, which
are kind of the glue I thinkwomen are the glue of every
family, right.
But Indian women are consideredthe ones who have to uphold the
(09:04):
whole household, not just takecare of their husband, not just
take care of the kids, butusually they're living in their
husband's family's home.
They're also expected to takecare of his parents, his
siblings, multiple generationsthat you kind of are carrying
that weight.
And so it's very easy for anindividual Indian wife to lose
(09:25):
herself in that process whereher own needs are neglected
because she's so busy caring foreveryone else.
And I think we experienced thatin the West to the same extent.
You know, because women are theones who hold the whole
household together, it's veryeasy to put everybody else first
and put yourself last, and thatcan be challenging for a
(09:49):
regular relationship wherethere's no abuse.
But then, when you put abuseinto the picture, it's even
harder for a woman to focus onherself because all the
expectations are don't thinkabout yourself, think about
everybody else you know.
And so you're carrying thatweight and it becomes a really
heavy burden to to carry and tohold that.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Are the expectations the same in the United States to
have like a multi generationalhousehold?
Speaker 2 (10:21):
It can definitely be the case.
It's not always the casebecause sometimes those of us
who've grown up here, ourparents are used to having their
own home.
We get married, we live in ourown home.
So it's not always the case,but many of us marry Indian
partners whose families fromIndia then come here after the
(10:44):
marriage and then live with us.
So that was my experience.
I was not expecting to livewith my mother-in-law, but one
week after the honeymoon shecame and stayed with us for like
three months and it was a totalsurprise to me.
I mean, she had come from Indiafor our wedding in America, but
I thought she was going tospend most of the time at her
daughter's house and not at herson's house.
(11:06):
And it just became thesituation I was thrown into and
I felt like an Indian wife inIndia, you know, suddenly like
living with a mother-in-law, andI just didn't know that was
going to happen.
It was just kind of thrust onme happened.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
It was just kind of thrust on me how prevalent or is
abuse prevalent at all in theIndian culture Is it even talked
about much.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
It's definitely a taboo topic.
That's not talked about.
Even divorce is a taboo topic.
That's not talked about.
So in America our statistic isabout 50% of marriages end in
divorce.
In India it's 1% of marriages.
So it doesn't mean 99% ofpeople are just thriving and
(11:53):
have great marriages.
It just means there's such astrong taboo against divorce
that people are going to stickwith it, even if it's not a good
marriage, because they're soconditioned that marriage comes
first.
There's no other option to getout of the marriage.
And so for myself, even thoughI grew up in America where I saw
(12:14):
plenty of friends coming fromdivorced households, divorce
didn't seem so taboo to me.
But when it came to my ownmarriage, I never considered
divorce an option.
Even when I started to gothrough the abuse, even when I
recognized it, when I labeled it, I still thought I have to find
a way to fix this marriage andthat burden is on me, and I
(12:39):
still didn't think of divorce asan option.
So I'd like to read a passageto you called Becoming the
Perfect Wife, and this is frommy book the Power to Break Free,
and I know for a lot of peopletrying to understand the
cultural nuances can bechallenging, but as I read this
paragraph, it might help youunderstand the expectations for
(13:03):
me.
As an Indian wife and kind ofthe cultural stereotype that was
imposed on me.
Becoming the perfect wife Itook more initiative in trying
to fix our marriage.
Every time an abusive incidentoccurred, I became the therapist
, patiently explaining to himthe pattern in which we were
(13:23):
trapped.
I was determined to appeal tohis logical, rational side, even
though there was no proof itexisted.
Surely if he saw how thisincident was similar to the last
incident, he would have moreclarity right.
My explanations, however, onlytriggered his anger more.
He reprimanded me you are tooemotional.
(13:46):
You're always harping on thepast and cannot let things go.
So I graciously forgave myhusband and tried to forget
these altercations so he wouldnot accuse me of living in the
past.
I continued to work diligentlyon myself so we could eventually
live an abuse-free life.
I continued to work diligentlyon myself so we could eventually
live an abuse-free life.
(14:06):
I strived to eliminate everyflaw my husband commented on, so
he could not criticize or blameme for his ire.
I took it upon myself to runthe household, prepare a hot
Indian meal every night andmanage our finances so he would
not be inconvenienced.
I ran errands on weekdays andhandled all our moves on my own
(14:28):
so he would not waste timepacking.
I devoted my time attending tohis needs, caring for his mother
whenever she came to live withus for months at a time, and
playing the role of an obedientIndian wife.
I stepped out of the way somother and son could bond and
make up for all the lost yearsthey had not seen each other.
Even if I felt left out, Idistanced myself from my
(14:53):
priorities and immersed myselfin doing everything I could for
his family.
I forgot what was important tome and neglected my own needs,
losing myself completely in thisprocess.
It was only a matter of timebefore the inevitable
disintegration of my being.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
That explains so much .
It really gives a good idea ofwhat is going through your head
and your day-to-day activities.
Is it common when there is anintergenerational group of
people living in the samehousehold?
Is it common to have either theabuse just ignored by others or
(15:34):
even have abuse from othermembers of the family?
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Absolutely.
I think that's a reallyimportant part of abuse in
Indian culture is that sometimesit's not just the abuser.
You can start to beexperiencing abuse from other
family members that start togang up on you.
Take the abuser's side, even ifthey do nothing.
Just that lack ofacknowledgement of what you're
(16:02):
experiencing, what you're goingthrough is, can be devastating.
For the most part, and when mymother-in-law lived with us, my
husband's behavior was better infront of her and so we would
have more abusive incidenceswhen she wasn't around.
But as the marriage progressed,as the years went by, he was
(16:26):
more enabled.
The abuse became more extreme.
There was one incident where hefor some reason we were having
house guests.
A lot of incidents would happenbefore we were having guests
coming into our house.
A lot of on his part he'd behaving a lot of insecurity, a
(16:47):
lot of anxiety, having to put onthis facade of being like this
great husband in front of otherpeople, this facade of being
like this great husband in frontof other people.
So we'd have a lot ofincidences that would happen
before people came into ourhouse.
And there was one incidentwhere we were just like cleaning
the kitchen, getting thingsready, and he started chasing me
around with a broom and it waslike not okay.
(17:09):
And his mother saw it and thenafter this dinner party, when we
talked about it, like sherefused to say that was not okay
and I'm like this is not normal, this would not be normal in
any household.
It wasn't a playful thing.
It was him like, trying to comeafter me with a broomstick, you
know, and it was really hardfor me to accept that.
(17:33):
I know a lot of victims areencouraged to like call the cops
when you're in danger, but inan Indian household we would
never, ever do that.
It is considered, you know, ifI was to complain about my
mother-in-law, it would beconsidered totally disrespectful
to do something to an elderperson, to criticize them.
So it just would never havecome into my mind and then I
(18:00):
would be outnumbered, even if Iwas to call the cops and say
this just happened to me.
If I have the abuser's familyoutnumbering me, it doesn't
carry any weight what I'm saying, because they're all going to
just deny it together or they'regoing to paint a bad story
about me, and so I think that'sreally kind of tricky for victim
(18:23):
Indian victims in particular isit's not just coming from one
person.
It adds so much more complexity.
When you're in amulti-generational household and
the abuse is either denied oramplified by your in-laws, you
know, in whatever context, thatthat might be.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Is it difficult to reach out to your own family, or
is that more?
You don't want to do thatbecause of the taboo.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Yeah, I really, because of the taboo, did not
want my parents to suspect thatthere was abuse in our marriage.
I really had made themisdiagnosis from the very
beginning that we can fix this.
You know that if we justcommunicate better, if we try
harder, if we go to a marriagetherapist, you know I just kept
(19:21):
putting the burden on myselfbecause I'm a fixer um, that I
can, can fix this.
And that was a totalmisdiagnosis, because no one
person can fix a relationship.
If the relationship is broken,it has to be both people who are
coming together to fix it andtaking either equal
responsibility or, for an abuser, complete responsibility for
his actions.
And when we got to the pointwhere, finally, you know, I was
(19:45):
getting really clear and tryingto take steps, to take step away
, and then he was trying reallyhard to keep me in the marriage
and saying all the right thingsof I'm sorry, this will never
happen again, we'll do better,I'm going to talk to a therapist
.
But it was also insincere.
It wasn't backed up with realconcrete change or action.
(20:08):
But it was what I had beendying to hear for years.
So I fell into the trap of oh,he's saying this now for the
first time.
That's different, so maybethere is a possibility of
changing.
So I never told my parentsuntil I was 100% sure this is
not going to work and I have toleave.
(20:29):
And I was really lucky to beblessed with parents who were
extremely supportive of me inthis process.
They were definitely shocked,but once they knew what had
happened and you know, I toldthem the whole story they were
really clear in supporting meand I don't know if I could have
(20:51):
done it without them.
You know, I think that supportsystem we have is so important.
I know for other Indian victimswho were not as lucky as me.
I had one Indian victim that Ihad interviewed because, as I
was getting out of my marriage,you know, I had journaled a lot
throughout the marriage and sothat's why I had such extensive
(21:13):
documentation of my abuse.
And so for me it was verycathartic in my healing process
to start to write my book and toput all these things together,
and I was trying to read everybook I could possibly read to
help me feel sane and getclarity.
The first book I read by LundyBancroft was called why Does he
Do this, and it was excellentbecause he described my abuser.
(21:37):
In a nutshell, you know,without knowing him, without
being in our house, and it waslike wow, everything that's been
happening to me is out of thisabuse playbook and he's followed
it literally from beginning toend with all of his strategies.
Like that's what really helpedto increase my awareness and get
clarity.
But as I started to read otherbooks, there were just a lot of
(21:59):
books by men.
There were a lot of books bytherapists who were on the other
side of this.
I wasn't finding a lot of booksby women, for women, victims,
survivors.
I know there's some out there,but there was just not enough.
I felt all of the books onabuse were just dominated by
(22:20):
people who hadn't experienced it.
And so, out of my own story, Ifelt like I had so much to
process and as I processed andas I put it into writing, it was
giving me more clarity.
And then I thought, if I can dothis for myself, I want to do
this for other women who arestuck and going through what I
went through, so that they canalso start to have that clarity.
(22:45):
But one of the women that Iinterviewed for this book, who
was Indian, she had an arrangedmarriage, she was living here in
America, but her parents wereback in India and when she
confessed to them that she wasin an abusive marriage and that
she wanted to get out, herfather said to her or let me
(23:08):
back up.
She asked her father don't youwant me to be happy?
And he said no, I want you tobe married.
That's much more important thanbeing happy and that's that
cultural conditioning.
That's there.
You know, that's frankly.
What many Indian people believeis that preserving this
(23:29):
institution of marriage is farmore important than an
individual's happiness or evenan individual's safety.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Unfortunately, Well, and I imagine, with that
cultural belief, the ability tofind therapy or domestic
violence agencies thatspecifically understand the
Indian culture plus how to helpa domestic violence victim would
be difficult to find.
(23:57):
Did you run into that problem?
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Absolutely.
I mean, the first place Istarted is I went to my local
domestic violence organizationand I just thought they would be
full of resources and, you know, I had just labeled myself as a
victim Otherwise I wouldn'thave even gone to an agency like
this and so everything was justso fresh and new and alarming
(24:21):
and I was really hoping to go toa place where I could feel safe
and I could take some refugeand my local DV center.
One of the first things theymade me do was talk to this
Christian minister who reallybelieves in premarital
counseling.
Right, the first thing he dideven though I'm not Christian,
(24:44):
that's not my background, but Iwas still open to getting help
or advice from someone who knowshow to coach victims in these
situations the first thing hedid was blame me for not doing
premarital counseling, eventhough that's not something I
knew about, it's not part of myculture, it's not part of my
belief system and it was justreally not helpful at all.
(25:09):
When I had gone to marriagecounseling in the last couple
months of our relationshiptogether marriage counseling in
the last couple months of ourrelationship together we went
and saw this therapist whoclaimed that she knew about
domestic violence.
But it was really clear sheknew nothing about it.
The abuser just made hersympathize with him and I was
(25:33):
kind of shocked at her response.
And so at the end of oursession she told me that I had
undermined him in his household,I had made him feel bad and
that it was important that hefelt like the king of his home.
And I did everything I could tosupport that.
(25:55):
And the exercise she gave is fora week.
I would do that and be thissubservient, obedient wife
making him feel like the king ofthe castle, and I would not
complain about anything.
And I left that counselingsession thinking, if she's
telling me this and I'm so clearI am a victim.
(26:15):
What is she doing to otherpeople?
Let's just keeping womentrapped.
And it just made my husband soenabled after that that he was
not willing to compromise, tolisten to me.
It just gave him permission tocontinue to be an arrogant
(26:37):
abuser, which was shocking to me.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Oh my gosh, I can't imagine the danger that that
would put other individuals inthat you know would take what
she said and believe it.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Well, I think that's the hard part, because everyone
says why doesn't the victim justwalk away?
But then when she gets to thatpoint where she's ready, there's
so many things from not herabuser, but now the community
that keeps her trapped, thatblames her, that judges her, and
it's like the victim has towork twice as hard to ignore her
(27:12):
abuser's conditioning, to nowignore all these cultural
stereotypes and perceptions andeverything that society puts on
the victim now that makes it somuch harder.
So for myself, after these twobad experiences, after my local
(27:33):
domestic violence organizationwhere I didn't really feel like
I got much support, I startedlooking online to see are there
Indian women's organizationsthat I can turn to?
And there wasn't one in my city.
But the closest organization Ifound was like a four-hour drive
away from me and I just decidedI'm going to do this.
(27:54):
I have got to find like my ownpeople, my own culture, see if I
can get more support.
So I drove four hours.
I went to this.
They had an afternoon wherethey had a presenter.
There were maybe 150 people inthe audience or so and it was a
great presentation.
(28:14):
And then afterwards I wanted tomeet with the organizers of this
Indian women's organization andstart to open up and tell my
story, and I was actually reallyshocked at their responses and
it seemed like it was the firsttime they were meeting someone
like me who was Indian but whohad grown up in America.
And they said well, you speakperfect English, you're not like
(28:43):
our immigrant clients thatdon't have a visa or don't know
if they can stay in this countryor can't communicate well, I
had another person say oh well,you had an introduced marriage.
It's not the same as being inan arranged marriage.
Marriage it's not the same asbeing in an arranged marriage,
and they had this stereotypeabout what that meant, and so I
was really so shocked at thispushback that I was getting.
I was once again looking forsupport from people in my
(29:05):
community and I just found thatnone of them understood me, none
of them could relate to me.
This is a while ago now, and Ithink these organizations have
evolved since then becausethere's a lot more women like me
that aren't immigrants but aregrowing up in these Indian
marriages grown up in America,been in Indian marriages, are
(29:26):
going through these culturalissues, and I think there's a
lot more awareness andrecognition of that now, which
there wasn't back when I wentthrough my divorce in 2008.
You know, it was a long, longtime ago, and so I think, for
people who are working atdomestic violence organizations,
(29:47):
I think it's so important forthem to recognize all the
different cultures that arecoming into their door and that
they have to figure out how canwe tailor our support to what
this person is going through andif they can understand that, it
just helps them be in aposition to be supportive.
(30:08):
I didn't expect someone from aregular DV organization to
understand all the culturalimplications of an Indian
marriage, but I did expect thatthey would be open to just
hearing my story and not judgingme and giving me a space to
feel safe, because that'sessentially what every victim is
(30:31):
looking for, that's coming outof an abusive situation, is they
want to turn to people that aregoing to help them feel safe,
and that should be our society'srole.
You know that should be a DVorganization's role know that
should be a DV organization'srole.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
I completely agree because one it's difficult
enough to be a domestic violencevictim or survivor looking for
help, and then you find your owncultural stigmas and then in
your case there's likestereotypes within the
stereotypes, and how difficultyou drove four hours and you
still couldn't find a placewhere you were actually really
(31:13):
understood.
And I think that is soincredibly important, like you
mentioned with domestic violenceagencies, is to take that into
consideration and if theypersonally are not able to offer
that to have, like youmentioned, personally are not
able to offer that to have, likeyou mentioned, an open mind to
learn about it or find somebodysomewhere that could help a
little bit more.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
Absolutely, because I think that's what victims are
looking for is for you to takethat step out of your abusive
situation where you feel likeyou're losing your sanity.
It's crazy making you're notsupported, you are not validated
.
You need to find that somewhereelse to encourage you and build
(31:57):
that support and make you feelmore confident.
So I think there's a lot ofcultural, or I should say,
societal, blame on victims.
Why are they staying?
Why are they not leaving?
And I think there's just somuch that's not understood about
what other people in societyare doing that keeps shaming
(32:20):
victims, that keeps blamingvictims, and so I think we're
just asking some of the wrongquestions there where we need to
really reframe it.
I have a whole chapter in mybook on community support and
community involvement where Ikind of break down the things
that we need to do as a societyto support somebody.
(32:41):
Um, I know, as I started toopen up to people, even to
neighbors or friends oracquaintances, it was really
shocking to me people'sresponses.
There were people who I barelyknew because at the time I
initiated my divorce, I had justmoved to this one city and had
(33:02):
been there like six months, so Ididn't know a lot of people and
I was amazed at some of theseacquaintances I had just met who
just were ready to support me ahundred percent what do you
need?
What can I do?
Like they were just ready tostep in.
And then I was also surprisedequally by longtime friends of
(33:22):
mine who had no idea what to door what to say or how to support
me, and I was just kind ofshocked at some of their
responses or their reactionsthat you know they didn't have
bad intentions, but they werejust not well-versed in what
does the victim need to hear.
(33:43):
And you know, what can I do tosupport you?
I know for me, when I encountervictims now you know outside of
my practice, but just you knoweveryday people where I might
encounter someone who's sharingthis story my first response is
always I'm so sorry for whatyou've been through and what can
(34:06):
I do to support you.
And I think if just peopleunderstood, it's really that
simple.
Don't give the victim all thesesuggestions of what you think
they should do, because onceagain you kind of sound like
their abuser.
You make it sound like you knowbetter, and a lot of family
members fall into this trap whenthey're coaching victims as
well as they are like oh, youshould do this, you should do
(34:28):
that, or they get upset with youif you didn't follow their
advice.
But really you want to have avictim feel empowered, that she
can make choices, she can makeher own decisions, because she
hasn't had that permission andshe hasn't felt safe to do that
in her abusive relationship.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
I can't even say that any better.
You're absolutely right, 100%.
It's so important to be heard,to be believed.
And then what can I do to helpyou?
Speaker 2 (34:58):
Absolutely, and it's so simple, right.
But people just don't know,because a lot of times what I
realized as I started to open upto people is they were going
through their own shock.
You know, for me at this pointI had labeled, I'm a victim, I'm
taking steps to get out.
But someone else hearing thestory for the first time are
just shocked because they'velooked at this abuser as like
(35:19):
the perfect husband or theperfect employee or the perfect
friend, and it's very hard forthem to now see this person in a
totally different light, and sosometimes they do doubt the
victim as they're sharing theirstory.
Is this really true?
Is she making this up?
Is she trying to get back athim?
You know what's the agenda here, and it once again really
(35:42):
unfairly paints the victim in abad light instead of realizing
she's really trying to get help.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
There is a stigma for domestic violence victims and
survivors at baseline, but thenwhen you take into the cultural
considerations that are keepingindividuals there and keeping
them trapped, there's just somany layers to it and I really
appreciate you coming on andexplaining specifically to the
Indian culture what all of thatcould potentially entail.
(36:13):
Is there anything else youthink that we need to know or
you would like to say?
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Well, I thank you so much for creating this podcast,
ingrid, because I think theseconversations are so important
and people need to hear thesestories.
They might not need to hear allthe details of every abusive
incident, and you know that partwhich is hard to talk about as
a victim, and I'm sure it's hardfor you as well, but I know for
(36:43):
myself before I got married ifI had read a book like the one
that I had written thatexplained all these red flags
and explained all these patternsand the subtleties and the
nuances, I would have gone intomy marriage so much more aware
of what to look out for, of howto protect myself.
(37:03):
I would have recognized all ofthese red flags, my PTSD
symptoms.
I would have recognized all ofit sooner.
So I really wrote the book thatI wish I had read myself.
That could have completely,100% prevented the abuse that I
went through in my marriage.
And I think that's the pieceabout domestic violence is.
(37:27):
It's a horrible crime to gothrough this experience, but
it's 100% preventable.
And if we were just able, as asociety, to talk about this and
make it okay and safe to talkabout, if we were able to get
rid of the stigma.
If more women who had beenvictims and survivors were able
to share their stories and openup, then we'd be able to see
(37:49):
that this is something that hasto be addressed.
It has to be talked about.
I understand, as a victim,never wanting to have to think
about my past and wanting toleave that chapter behind, but I
also felt the responsibility.
If I don't share this, who will?
(38:10):
I had a background as a healer.
I have a background as a writer.
I felt like I was really primedto put all of my experiences
into writing and share it.
I know that's not for everybody, but I think, if there's enough
of us that are willing to talkabout and share what's happened
to us, that it helps to turn thetide.
It helps to have younger women,before they start dating or
(38:33):
before they get married, just bea lot more vigilant about what
are they getting into.
And I think as a society, weneed to talk about what are
healthy relationships and whatare unhealthy relationships Like
.
There needs to be more dialogueabout that to make us aware.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
I agree and I think that you've done a beautiful job
speaking on the podcast and Ireally appreciate that.
I really appreciate all of thework that you put into writing
your book and I will includelinks for that in the show notes
if somebody wants to read itI'm in the process of finishing
it so it does have so muchincredible information that, yes
(39:19):
, specific to the Andean culture, but then also that can be
generalized to domestic violencevictims and survivors, and
you've done such an incrediblejob.
I love your work.
You continue doing all the work, your healing for so many
people, and thank you again somuch for coming on the second
time to talk with me today.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Thank you so much for having me, Ingrid.
It's been a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
Dr Anisha.
Thank you again for joining meand thank you for listening.
Don't forget to check out DrAnisha's links included in the
show notes.
I will be back next week withanother episode for you.
Until then, stay strong andwherever you are in your journey
, always remember you are notalone.
(40:07):
Find more information, registeras a guest or leave a review by
going to the websiteonein3podcastcom.
That's the number one, i-n thenumber three podcastcom.
Follow One in Three onInstagram, facebook and Twitter
at One in Three Podcast.
To help me out, please rememberto rate, review and subscribe.
(40:28):
1in3 is a .5 Pinoy productionMusic written and performed by
Tim Crow.
Hi Warriors, welcome to One in Three.
I'm your host, ingrid.
Today Dr Anisha joins me again.
In this episode she discussesthe Indian culture surrounding
relationships and marriages.
She further details howspecific customs may impact
abuse victims.
Drawing from her personalexperience, she goes on to
(00:20):
examine additional hurdlesdomestic violence victims
specific to the Indian culturemay face when seeking help.
Here is Dr Anisha.
Hi, dr Anisha, welcome back.
It's nice to have you again.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited to be here again.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited to be here again.
Yes, so one thing that played arole probably in your personal
experience with domesticviolence, and within a lot of
individuals who experiencedomestic violence, is their
cultural background, and you'rehere today to talk to us a
little bit about that.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Absolutely.
I think sometimes the culturalpiece is often not understood
when community members aretrying to work with victims of
domestic violence and it can besuch a big piece in what keeps
them trapped.
So I think it's reallyimportant to understand that.
So the book that I wrote, thePower to Break Free Surviving
(01:26):
Domestic Violence the subtitle Iwrote in there is with a
special reference to abuse inIndian marriages, because there
was a lot of things from myIndian cultural background that
played into my abuse or made itworse or made it harder for me
to walk away from, and so as Iwas processing my own trauma and
(01:48):
trying to come out of myseven-year abusive marriage, I
needed to really understand allthose subtle cultural nuances
and I realized that I wanted tobe able to share that
information in my own Indiancommunity with other women who
were probably trapped for thesame reasons or thinking the
same things I was thinking, tohelp them understand how to
(02:11):
break free from that culturalconditioning to really be able
to be safe and out of theirabusive relationships.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Okay, so you're talking about marriages within
the Indian community.
So how many is there?
Is it just a straightforwardmarriage or are there different%
of marriages?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
are still arranged marriages in India.
So, coming from a very ancientculture where typically the
(02:52):
parents would arrange themarriages for people, we've seen
that kind of evolve with time.
So in my grandparents' day,when they had arranged marriages
, they would not really even seetheir partner until the day of
the wedding.
Right, and they you like themmeet their family.
The parents might still makethe decision of whether you're
(03:30):
going to get married or not, butthere was a little bit more
openness with meeting multiplepeople and kind of feeling
things out.
Today's generation, I think,even though arranged marriage is
there, there's still a lot morefreedom to meet many people.
You know, with all the datingshows that we have on Netflix
(03:52):
and online these days, there areactually some Indian
matchmaking shows out there thatjust kind of show the arranged
marriage process of it's notjust getting to know that person
, it's getting to know theirwhole family.
And traditionally in India,when a woman gets married, she
moves out of her parents' homeand moves into her husband's
(04:13):
home where he is living with hisparents and often multiple
generations within one household.
So that's kind of still thenorm in India.
Living here in America my wholelife, I will say that there's
another kind of brand ofmarriage that's been created, or
(04:35):
category of marriage which iscalled introduced marriages.
That's what I experienced, andso I didn't go through a typical
arranged marriage where I wasset up with my husband.
But introduced marriage is kindof the equivalent of like a
blind date, where someone issetting you up to meet this
person, except instead of datingyou just decide okay, we're
(04:58):
going to get married.
So it's a kind of fast pacedversion.
You just skip the dating andyou go straight to like being
introduced and hitting it offand deciding to get married.
The parents might still haveinput, but it's really coming
from the couples making thisdecision instead of somebody
else deciding you should getmarried.
(05:19):
And so, for me, I went intothis introduced marriage because
I had a lot of faith in myparents' marriage.
My grandparents, all of myrelatives, majority of them had
all had arranged marriages, andthey were successful marriages
in the sense that they hadcommon values, they were
dedicated to raising theirchildren, there was no strife
(05:41):
apparent, and so I just kind ofreally trusted in this Indian
system, which is how I kind ofgot into my introduced marriage.
We were introduced by a familyfriend.
We spoke on the phone and hitit off.
We met two weeks later, Ibelieve, in person, and a week
(06:04):
after that we were engaged andthen six months later we were
married.
So it was super fast.
And then the third category ofmarriage so we have arranged, we
have introduced, and then thethird category is love marriages
.
So that's kind of what the restof the world experiences is
like you fall in love, youdecide to get married, but in
India only 5% of marriages arelove marriages.
(06:28):
In the Indian community here inAmerica I would say that it's
about 50% introduced marriagesand about 50% love marriages.
So that just kind of gives youa little context in terms of as
we look at Indian marriage.
There's these differentcategories and then that can
(06:51):
make it more challenging to comeout of abuse for various
reasons that we can get intolater.
But hopefully I explained that.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Yes, you did.
That makes sense.
Is there any pressure in theintroduced or the love different
kinds of marriages for atimeline Like for introduced?
Is it like well, really, youshould only be meeting like
three guys before you decide youwant to get married.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
I don't think there's necessarily a timeline like
that.
Sometimes there can be morepressure on the women and for
guys there might be kind of anopen field of they can meet as
many girls as they want to, sothat kind of plays out a little
bit differently.
I would say the pressure comesbecause there is such a strong
(07:40):
expectation in Indian culture toget married.
There's no real wiggle room forwomen who don't want to get
married.
That's just not a cultural normand it's just expected that you
are going to get married.
The marriage age is alsoyounger in India, so most people
are getting married in theirearly to mid-20s and then
(08:01):
there's a lot of pressure,expectation to soon start your
own family, have kids.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
It does seem that there's a different outlook
between the men and the women inthe Indian culture.
What are some of thestereotypes of Indian wives?
Speaker 2 (08:21):
So that's a great question.
I think you know the culturalof indian wives is that you put
your husband first, you know.
So in the western culture we'revery individualistic eastern
cultures, not just india, butyou know all the eastern
countries there's a differentsentiment.
That's not against theindividual, but everything's
(08:43):
about creating harmony for thecommunity, creating harmony for
the family structure, trying tocreate stability with that.
And so, because of thatexpectation, indian women, which
are kind of the glue I thinkwomen are the glue of every
family, right.
But Indian women are consideredthe ones who have to uphold the
(09:04):
whole household, not just takecare of their husband, not just
take care of the kids, butusually they're living in their
husband's family's home.
They're also expected to takecare of his parents, his
siblings, multiple generationsthat you kind of are carrying
that weight.
And so it's very easy for anindividual Indian wife to lose
(09:25):
herself in that process whereher own needs are neglected
because she's so busy caring foreveryone else.
And I think we experienced thatin the West to the same extent.
You know, because women are theones who hold the whole
household together, it's veryeasy to put everybody else first
and put yourself last, and thatcan be challenging for a
(09:49):
regular relationship wherethere's no abuse.
But then, when you put abuseinto the picture, it's even
harder for a woman to focus onherself because all the
expectations are don't thinkabout yourself, think about
everybody else you know.
And so you're carrying thatweight and it becomes a really
heavy burden to to carry and tohold that.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Are the expectations the same in the United States to
have like a multi generationalhousehold?
Speaker 2 (10:21):
It can definitely be the case.
It's not always the casebecause sometimes those of us
who've grown up here, ourparents are used to having their
own home.
We get married, we live in ourown home.
So it's not always the case,but many of us marry Indian
partners whose families fromIndia then come here after the
(10:44):
marriage and then live with us.
So that was my experience.
I was not expecting to livewith my mother-in-law, but one
week after the honeymoon shecame and stayed with us for like
three months and it was a totalsurprise to me.
I mean, she had come from Indiafor our wedding in America, but
I thought she was going tospend most of the time at her
daughter's house and not at herson's house.
(11:06):
And it just became thesituation I was thrown into and
I felt like an Indian wife inIndia, you know, suddenly like
living with a mother-in-law, andI just didn't know that was
going to happen.
It was just kind of thrust onme happened.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
It was just kind of thrust on me how prevalent or is
abuse prevalent at all in theIndian culture Is it even talked
about much.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
It's definitely a taboo topic.
That's not talked about.
Even divorce is a taboo topic.
That's not talked about.
So in America our statistic isabout 50% of marriages end in
divorce.
In India it's 1% of marriages.
So it doesn't mean 99% ofpeople are just thriving and
(11:53):
have great marriages.
It just means there's such astrong taboo against divorce
that people are going to stickwith it, even if it's not a good
marriage, because they're soconditioned that marriage comes
first.
There's no other option to getout of the marriage.
And so for myself, even thoughI grew up in America where I saw
(12:14):
plenty of friends coming fromdivorced households, divorce
didn't seem so taboo to me.
But when it came to my ownmarriage, I never considered
divorce an option.
Even when I started to gothrough the abuse, even when I
recognized it, when I labeled it, I still thought I have to find
a way to fix this marriage andthat burden is on me, and I
(12:39):
still didn't think of divorce asan option.
So I'd like to read a passageto you called Becoming the
Perfect Wife, and this is frommy book the Power to Break Free,
and I know for a lot of peopletrying to understand the
cultural nuances can bechallenging, but as I read this
paragraph, it might help youunderstand the expectations for
(13:03):
me.
As an Indian wife and kind ofthe cultural stereotype that was
imposed on me.
Becoming the perfect wife Itook more initiative in trying
to fix our marriage.
Every time an abusive incidentoccurred, I became the therapist
, patiently explaining to himthe pattern in which we were
(13:23):
trapped.
I was determined to appeal tohis logical, rational side, even
though there was no proof itexisted.
Surely if he saw how thisincident was similar to the last
incident, he would have moreclarity right.
My explanations, however, onlytriggered his anger more.
He reprimanded me you are tooemotional.
(13:46):
You're always harping on thepast and cannot let things go.
So I graciously forgave myhusband and tried to forget
these altercations so he wouldnot accuse me of living in the
past.
I continued to work diligentlyon myself so we could eventually
live an abuse-free life.
I continued to work diligentlyon myself so we could eventually
live an abuse-free life.
(14:06):
I strived to eliminate everyflaw my husband commented on, so
he could not criticize or blameme for his ire.
I took it upon myself to runthe household, prepare a hot
Indian meal every night andmanage our finances so he would
not be inconvenienced.
I ran errands on weekdays andhandled all our moves on my own
(14:28):
so he would not waste timepacking.
I devoted my time attending tohis needs, caring for his mother
whenever she came to live withus for months at a time, and
playing the role of an obedientIndian wife.
I stepped out of the way somother and son could bond and
make up for all the lost yearsthey had not seen each other.
Even if I felt left out, Idistanced myself from my
(14:53):
priorities and immersed myselfin doing everything I could for
his family.
I forgot what was important tome and neglected my own needs,
losing myself completely in thisprocess.
It was only a matter of timebefore the inevitable
disintegration of my being.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
That explains so much .
It really gives a good idea ofwhat is going through your head
and your day-to-day activities.
Is it common when there is anintergenerational group of
people living in the samehousehold?
Is it common to have either theabuse just ignored by others or
(15:34):
even have abuse from othermembers of the family?
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Absolutely.
I think that's a reallyimportant part of abuse in
Indian culture is that sometimesit's not just the abuser.
You can start to beexperiencing abuse from other
family members that start togang up on you.
Take the abuser's side, even ifthey do nothing.
Just that lack ofacknowledgement of what you're
(16:02):
experiencing, what you're goingthrough is, can be devastating.
For the most part, and when mymother-in-law lived with us, my
husband's behavior was better infront of her and so we would
have more abusive incidenceswhen she wasn't around.
But as the marriage progressed,as the years went by, he was
(16:26):
more enabled.
The abuse became more extreme.
There was one incident where hefor some reason we were having
house guests.
A lot of incidents would happenbefore we were having guests
coming into our house.
A lot of on his part he'd behaving a lot of insecurity, a
(16:47):
lot of anxiety, having to put onthis facade of being like this
great husband in front of otherpeople, this facade of being
like this great husband in frontof other people.
So we'd have a lot ofincidences that would happen
before people came into ourhouse.
And there was one incidentwhere we were just like cleaning
the kitchen, getting thingsready, and he started chasing me
around with a broom and it waslike not okay.
(17:09):
And his mother saw it and thenafter this dinner party, when we
talked about it, like sherefused to say that was not okay
and I'm like this is not normal, this would not be normal in
any household.
It wasn't a playful thing.
It was him like, trying to comeafter me with a broomstick, you
know, and it was really hardfor me to accept that.
(17:33):
I know a lot of victims areencouraged to like call the cops
when you're in danger, but inan Indian household we would
never, ever do that.
It is considered, you know, ifI was to complain about my
mother-in-law, it would beconsidered totally disrespectful
to do something to an elderperson, to criticize them.
So it just would never havecome into my mind and then I
(18:00):
would be outnumbered, even if Iwas to call the cops and say
this just happened to me.
If I have the abuser's familyoutnumbering me, it doesn't
carry any weight what I'm saying, because they're all going to
just deny it together or they'regoing to paint a bad story
about me, and so I think that'sreally kind of tricky for victim
(18:23):
Indian victims in particular isit's not just coming from one
person.
It adds so much more complexity.
When you're in amulti-generational household and
the abuse is either denied oramplified by your in-laws, you
know, in whatever context, thatthat might be.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Is it difficult to reach out to your own family, or
is that more?
You don't want to do thatbecause of the taboo.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Yeah, I really, because of the taboo, did not
want my parents to suspect thatthere was abuse in our marriage.
I really had made themisdiagnosis from the very
beginning that we can fix this.
You know that if we justcommunicate better, if we try
harder, if we go to a marriagetherapist, you know I just kept
(19:21):
putting the burden on myselfbecause I'm a fixer um, that I
can, can fix this.
And that was a totalmisdiagnosis, because no one
person can fix a relationship.
If the relationship is broken,it has to be both people who are
coming together to fix it andtaking either equal
responsibility or, for an abuser, complete responsibility for
his actions.
And when we got to the pointwhere, finally, you know, I was
(19:45):
getting really clear and tryingto take steps, to take step away
, and then he was trying reallyhard to keep me in the marriage
and saying all the right thingsof I'm sorry, this will never
happen again, we'll do better,I'm going to talk to a therapist
.
But it was also insincere.
It wasn't backed up with realconcrete change or action.
(20:08):
But it was what I had beendying to hear for years.
So I fell into the trap of oh,he's saying this now for the
first time.
That's different, so maybethere is a possibility of
changing.
So I never told my parentsuntil I was 100% sure this is
not going to work and I have toleave.
(20:29):
And I was really lucky to beblessed with parents who were
extremely supportive of me inthis process.
They were definitely shocked,but once they knew what had
happened and you know, I toldthem the whole story they were
really clear in supporting meand I don't know if I could have
(20:51):
done it without them.
You know, I think that supportsystem we have is so important.
I know for other Indian victimswho were not as lucky as me.
I had one Indian victim that Ihad interviewed because, as I
was getting out of my marriage,you know, I had journaled a lot
throughout the marriage and sothat's why I had such extensive
(21:13):
documentation of my abuse.
And so for me it was verycathartic in my healing process
to start to write my book and toput all these things together,
and I was trying to read everybook I could possibly read to
help me feel sane and getclarity.
The first book I read by LundyBancroft was called why Does he
Do this, and it was excellentbecause he described my abuser.
(21:37):
In a nutshell, you know,without knowing him, without
being in our house, and it waslike wow, everything that's been
happening to me is out of thisabuse playbook and he's followed
it literally from beginning toend with all of his strategies.
Like that's what really helpedto increase my awareness and get
clarity.
But as I started to read otherbooks, there were just a lot of
(21:59):
books by men.
There were a lot of books bytherapists who were on the other
side of this.
I wasn't finding a lot of booksby women, for women, victims,
survivors.
I know there's some out there,but there was just not enough.
I felt all of the books onabuse were just dominated by
(22:20):
people who hadn't experienced it.
And so, out of my own story, Ifelt like I had so much to
process and as I processed andas I put it into writing, it was
giving me more clarity.
And then I thought, if I can dothis for myself, I want to do
this for other women who arestuck and going through what I
went through, so that they canalso start to have that clarity.
(22:45):
But one of the women that Iinterviewed for this book, who
was Indian, she had an arrangedmarriage, she was living here in
America, but her parents wereback in India and when she
confessed to them that she wasin an abusive marriage and that
she wanted to get out, herfather said to her or let me
(23:08):
back up.
She asked her father don't youwant me to be happy?
And he said no, I want you tobe married.
That's much more important thanbeing happy and that's that
cultural conditioning.
That's there.
You know, that's frankly.
What many Indian people believeis that preserving this
(23:29):
institution of marriage is farmore important than an
individual's happiness or evenan individual's safety.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Unfortunately, Well, and I imagine, with that
cultural belief, the ability tofind therapy or domestic
violence agencies thatspecifically understand the
Indian culture plus how to helpa domestic violence victim would
be difficult to find.
(23:57):
Did you run into that problem?
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Absolutely.
I mean, the first place Istarted is I went to my local
domestic violence organizationand I just thought they would be
full of resources and, you know, I had just labeled myself as a
victim Otherwise I wouldn'thave even gone to an agency like
this and so everything was justso fresh and new and alarming
(24:21):
and I was really hoping to go toa place where I could feel safe
and I could take some refugeand my local DV center.
One of the first things theymade me do was talk to this
Christian minister who reallybelieves in premarital
counseling.
Right, the first thing he dideven though I'm not Christian,
(24:44):
that's not my background, but Iwas still open to getting help
or advice from someone who knowshow to coach victims in these
situations the first thing hedid was blame me for not doing
premarital counseling, eventhough that's not something I
knew about, it's not part of myculture, it's not part of my
belief system and it was justreally not helpful at all.
(25:09):
When I had gone to marriagecounseling in the last couple
months of our relationshiptogether marriage counseling in
the last couple months of ourrelationship together we went
and saw this therapist whoclaimed that she knew about
domestic violence.
But it was really clear sheknew nothing about it.
The abuser just made hersympathize with him and I was
(25:33):
kind of shocked at her response.
And so at the end of oursession she told me that I had
undermined him in his household,I had made him feel bad and
that it was important that hefelt like the king of his home.
And I did everything I could tosupport that.
(25:55):
And the exercise she gave is fora week.
I would do that and be thissubservient, obedient wife
making him feel like the king ofthe castle, and I would not
complain about anything.
And I left that counselingsession thinking, if she's
telling me this and I'm so clearI am a victim.
(26:15):
What is she doing to otherpeople?
Let's just keeping womentrapped.
And it just made my husband soenabled after that that he was
not willing to compromise, tolisten to me.
It just gave him permission tocontinue to be an arrogant
(26:37):
abuser, which was shocking to me.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Oh my gosh, I can't imagine the danger that that
would put other individuals inthat you know would take what
she said and believe it.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Well, I think that's the hard part, because everyone
says why doesn't the victim justwalk away?
But then when she gets to thatpoint where she's ready, there's
so many things from not herabuser, but now the community
that keeps her trapped, thatblames her, that judges her, and
it's like the victim has towork twice as hard to ignore her
(27:12):
abuser's conditioning, to nowignore all these cultural
stereotypes and perceptions andeverything that society puts on
the victim now that makes it somuch harder.
So for myself, after these twobad experiences, after my local
(27:33):
domestic violence organizationwhere I didn't really feel like
I got much support, I startedlooking online to see are there
Indian women's organizationsthat I can turn to?
And there wasn't one in my city.
But the closest organization Ifound was like a four-hour drive
away from me and I just decidedI'm going to do this.
(27:54):
I have got to find like my ownpeople, my own culture, see if I
can get more support.
So I drove four hours.
I went to this.
They had an afternoon wherethey had a presenter.
There were maybe 150 people inthe audience or so and it was a
great presentation.
(28:14):
And then afterwards I wanted tomeet with the organizers of this
Indian women's organization andstart to open up and tell my
story, and I was actually reallyshocked at their responses and
it seemed like it was the firsttime they were meeting someone
like me who was Indian but whohad grown up in America.
And they said well, you speakperfect English, you're not like
(28:43):
our immigrant clients thatdon't have a visa or don't know
if they can stay in this countryor can't communicate well, I
had another person say oh well,you had an introduced marriage.
It's not the same as being inan arranged marriage.
Marriage it's not the same asbeing in an arranged marriage,
and they had this stereotypeabout what that meant, and so I
was really so shocked at thispushback that I was getting.
I was once again looking forsupport from people in my
(29:05):
community and I just found thatnone of them understood me, none
of them could relate to me.
This is a while ago now, and Ithink these organizations have
evolved since then becausethere's a lot more women like me
that aren't immigrants but aregrowing up in these Indian
marriages grown up in America,been in Indian marriages, are
(29:26):
going through these culturalissues, and I think there's a
lot more awareness andrecognition of that now, which
there wasn't back when I wentthrough my divorce in 2008.
You know, it was a long, longtime ago, and so I think, for
people who are working atdomestic violence organizations,
(29:47):
I think it's so important forthem to recognize all the
different cultures that arecoming into their door and that
they have to figure out how canwe tailor our support to what
this person is going through andif they can understand that, it
just helps them be in aposition to be supportive.
(30:08):
I didn't expect someone from aregular DV organization to
understand all the culturalimplications of an Indian
marriage, but I did expect thatthey would be open to just
hearing my story and not judgingme and giving me a space to
feel safe, because that'sessentially what every victim is
(30:31):
looking for, that's coming outof an abusive situation, is they
want to turn to people that aregoing to help them feel safe,
and that should be our society'srole.
You know that should be a DVorganization's role know that
should be a DV organization'srole.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
I completely agree because one it's difficult
enough to be a domestic violencevictim or survivor looking for
help, and then you find your owncultural stigmas and then in
your case there's likestereotypes within the
stereotypes, and how difficultyou drove four hours and you
still couldn't find a placewhere you were actually really
(31:13):
understood.
And I think that is soincredibly important, like you
mentioned with domestic violenceagencies, is to take that into
consideration and if theypersonally are not able to offer
that to have, like youmentioned, personally are not
able to offer that to have, likeyou mentioned, an open mind to
learn about it or find somebodysomewhere that could help a
little bit more.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
Absolutely, because I think that's what victims are
looking for is for you to takethat step out of your abusive
situation where you feel likeyou're losing your sanity.
It's crazy making you're notsupported, you are not validated
.
You need to find that somewhereelse to encourage you and build
(31:57):
that support and make you feelmore confident.
So I think there's a lot ofcultural, or I should say,
societal, blame on victims.
Why are they staying?
Why are they not leaving?
And I think there's just somuch that's not understood about
what other people in societyare doing that keeps shaming
(32:20):
victims, that keeps blamingvictims, and so I think we're
just asking some of the wrongquestions there where we need to
really reframe it.
I have a whole chapter in mybook on community support and
community involvement where Ikind of break down the things
that we need to do as a societyto support somebody.
(32:41):
Um, I know, as I started toopen up to people, even to
neighbors or friends oracquaintances, it was really
shocking to me people'sresponses.
There were people who I barelyknew because at the time I
initiated my divorce, I had justmoved to this one city and had
(33:02):
been there like six months, so Ididn't know a lot of people and
I was amazed at some of theseacquaintances I had just met who
just were ready to support me ahundred percent what do you
need?
What can I do?
Like they were just ready tostep in.
And then I was also surprisedequally by longtime friends of
(33:22):
mine who had no idea what to door what to say or how to support
me, and I was just kind ofshocked at some of their
responses or their reactionsthat you know they didn't have
bad intentions, but they werejust not well-versed in what
does the victim need to hear.
(33:43):
And you know, what can I do tosupport you?
I know for me, when I encountervictims now you know outside of
my practice, but just you knoweveryday people where I might
encounter someone who's sharingthis story my first response is
always I'm so sorry for whatyou've been through and what can
(34:06):
I do to support you.
And I think if just peopleunderstood, it's really that
simple.
Don't give the victim all thesesuggestions of what you think
they should do, because onceagain you kind of sound like
their abuser.
You make it sound like you knowbetter, and a lot of family
members fall into this trap whenthey're coaching victims as
well as they are like oh, youshould do this, you should do
(34:28):
that, or they get upset with youif you didn't follow their
advice.
But really you want to have avictim feel empowered, that she
can make choices, she can makeher own decisions, because she
hasn't had that permission andshe hasn't felt safe to do that
in her abusive relationship.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
I can't even say that any better.
You're absolutely right, 100%.
It's so important to be heard,to be believed.
And then what can I do to helpyou?
Speaker 2 (34:58):
Absolutely, and it's so simple, right.
But people just don't know,because a lot of times what I
realized as I started to open upto people is they were going
through their own shock.
You know, for me at this pointI had labeled, I'm a victim, I'm
taking steps to get out.
But someone else hearing thestory for the first time are
just shocked because they'velooked at this abuser as like
(35:19):
the perfect husband or theperfect employee or the perfect
friend, and it's very hard forthem to now see this person in a
totally different light, and sosometimes they do doubt the
victim as they're sharing theirstory.
Is this really true?
Is she making this up?
Is she trying to get back athim?
You know what's the agenda here, and it once again really
(35:42):
unfairly paints the victim in abad light instead of realizing
she's really trying to get help.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
There is a stigma for domestic violence victims and
survivors at baseline, but thenwhen you take into the cultural
considerations that are keepingindividuals there and keeping
them trapped, there's just somany layers to it and I really
appreciate you coming on andexplaining specifically to the
Indian culture what all of thatcould potentially entail.
(36:13):
Is there anything else youthink that we need to know or
you would like to say?
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Well, I thank you so much for creating this podcast,
ingrid, because I think theseconversations are so important
and people need to hear thesestories.
They might not need to hear allthe details of every abusive
incident, and you know that partwhich is hard to talk about as
a victim, and I'm sure it's hardfor you as well, but I know for
(36:43):
myself before I got married ifI had read a book like the one
that I had written thatexplained all these red flags
and explained all these patternsand the subtleties and the
nuances, I would have gone intomy marriage so much more aware
of what to look out for, of howto protect myself.
(37:03):
I would have recognized all ofthese red flags, my PTSD
symptoms.
I would have recognized all ofit sooner.
So I really wrote the book thatI wish I had read myself.
That could have completely,100% prevented the abuse that I
went through in my marriage.
And I think that's the pieceabout domestic violence is.
(37:27):
It's a horrible crime to gothrough this experience, but
it's 100% preventable.
And if we were just able, as asociety, to talk about this and
make it okay and safe to talkabout, if we were able to get
rid of the stigma.
If more women who had beenvictims and survivors were able
to share their stories and openup, then we'd be able to see
(37:49):
that this is something that hasto be addressed.
It has to be talked about.
I understand, as a victim,never wanting to have to think
about my past and wanting toleave that chapter behind, but I
also felt the responsibility.
If I don't share this, who will?
(38:10):
I had a background as a healer.
I have a background as a writer.
I felt like I was really primedto put all of my experiences
into writing and share it.
I know that's not for everybody, but I think, if there's enough
of us that are willing to talkabout and share what's happened
to us, that it helps to turn thetide.
It helps to have younger women,before they start dating or
(38:33):
before they get married, just bea lot more vigilant about what
are they getting into.
And I think as a society, weneed to talk about what are
healthy relationships and whatare unhealthy relationships Like
.
There needs to be more dialogueabout that to make us aware.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
I agree and I think that you've done a beautiful job
speaking on the podcast and Ireally appreciate that.
I really appreciate all of thework that you put into writing
your book and I will includelinks for that in the show notes
if somebody wants to read itI'm in the process of finishing
it so it does have so muchincredible information that, yes
(39:19):
, specific to the Andean culture, but then also that can be
generalized to domestic violencevictims and survivors, and
you've done such an incrediblejob.
I love your work.
You continue doing all the work, your healing for so many
people, and thank you again somuch for coming on the second
time to talk with me today.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Thank you so much for having me, Ingrid.
It's been a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
Dr Anisha.
Thank you again for joining meand thank you for listening.
Don't forget to check out DrAnisha's links included in the
show notes.
I will be back next week withanother episode for you.
Until then, stay strong andwherever you are in your journey
, always remember you are notalone.
(40:07):
Find more information, registeras a guest or leave a review by
going to the websiteonein3podcastcom.
That's the number one, i-n thenumber three podcastcom.
Follow One in Three onInstagram, facebook and Twitter
at One in Three Podcast.
To help me out, please rememberto rate, review and subscribe.
(40:28):
1in3 is a .5 Pinoy productionMusic written and performed by
Tim Crow.
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