March 12, 2025 • 33 mins
Emma Jean Rowin survived an abusive marriage that culminated in her ex-husband becoming an active shooter. Her powerful memoir "When Things Collapse" chronicles this journey, but more importantly, reveals the subtle pathway that led her there - the very pathway many dismiss with "I would never stay in an abusive relationship."
Through reading passages from her book, Emma Jean transports us to her college years when the relationship began. We witness the seemingly small moments that were actually major warning signs: a boyfriend who breaks up with her repeatedly as punishment for minor disagreements, who throws a full drink at her friend over a harmless joke, who creates emotional chaos that somehow felt like passion to a young woman whose own parents modeled a passionless marriage.
What makes this conversation particularly insightful is the exploration of why smart, capable people remain in toxic relationships. Both Emma Jean and host Ingrid reflect on how their family backgrounds created blind spots, how the intense chemistry masked manipulation, and how the absence of relationship education in the 1990s left them navigating dangerous waters without a map. They unpack the psychology behind staying - how victims absorb blame, make excuses, and gradually accept increasingly problematic behavior as normal.
For anyone who has ever judged someone for not leaving, this episode provides crucial perspective. For those currently questioning their own relationships, it offers validation and recognition. And for everyone else, it serves as a reminder that abuse doesn't announce itself with violence - it sneaks in through charm, intensity, and moments of connection that make the red flags easier to dismiss.
The conversation beautifully illustrates how modern awareness around mental health and relationship dynamics provides tools previous generations lacked, while acknowledging there's still much work to be done in educating young people about healthy relationships. Listen as Emma Jean shares her story with courage and clarity, reminding us that understanding how people enter these relationships is the first step toward helping them find their way out.
Emma Jean’s 1in3 profile: https://www.1in3podcast.com/guests/emma-jean-rowin/
1 in 3 is intended for mature audiences. Episodes contain explicit content and may be triggering to some.
If you are in the United States and need help right now, call the national domestic violence hotline at 800-799-7233 or text the word “start” to 88788.
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Cover art by Laura Swift Dahlke
Music by Tim Crowe
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ingrid (00:00):
Hi Warriors, welcome to 1 in 3.
I'm your host, ingrid.
A comment I hear far too oftenis I would never be or stay in
an abusive relationship, andwhile I truly hope that's the
case, the reality is far morecomplex.
Today, author Emma Jean Rowanreads a portion from her book
when Things Collapse, followedby a discussion about the red
(00:22):
flags we personally missed alongthe way.
We also offer advice on how tospot the behaviors that should
make you run, becauserecognizing those signs early
can make all the difference.
So let's dive in.
Here's Emma Jean.
Hi, emma Jean, welcome to Onein Three.
(00:43):
Thank you so much for joiningme today.
Hi thank you for having me.
Okay, so you wrote a booktitled when Things Collapse.
Do you mind just giving a briefbackground before we get into
what we want to talk about today?
Emma Jean (00:58):
Sure, I'm Emma Jean Rowan and, as you said, I'm the
author of when Things Collapse.
Jean Rowan, and, as you said,I'm the author of when Things
Collapse, 15 years ago, I tookmy two children and I left an
abusive marriage, and during the15 years that followed, I
focused all my attention onrebuilding my life for my kids,
making sure they were okay,making sure they were able to
thrive the same as otherchildren, and really just
(01:20):
grappling my way through dealingwith what I had exposed them to
.
Recently, though, I became anempty nester when my children
went to college and I started tofinally have the space to think
about myself and what I hadendured in my own experience in
the abuse of marriage, and thestory from there just poured
(01:40):
from within me.
My story starts in 2014, when Iwas grocery shopping with my
kids and I got a call that myestranged ex-husband had become
an active shooter, and fromthere I'm forced in the story to
confront the truth of my pasthow I got into the relationship,
the way that my husband changedfrom this idyllic partner
(02:03):
spiraling into a doomsdayprepper and an abusive spouse,
and my journey to try to save mykids from that.
Ingrid (02:13):
And the book is very well written.
I like how you go from presenttense of what's happening and
then you do a flashback as tohow you got into the
relationship.
And I think that's reallyimportant in in these situations
of domestic violence is tounderstand how anybody can end
up in a relationship like this,and then what you do once you're
in it and how you get out, andI love how you go through each
(02:35):
of those steps and that's whatwe're going to do today.
Emma Jean (02:38):
Right, you're going to take us through those steps.
Ingrid (02:41):
Yes, yes Thank you.
Emma Jean (02:43):
So, yes, and I wrote it that way because I do think
it's important to go backwardsin time.
When you look at an abusivesituation, you may know a person
who's going through abuse andyou may have that part of the
story.
But I think if you go way backin time, there are a lot of
things that you can draw ties tothat.
(03:04):
Maybe this led the person toaccept this, or this piece of
their childhood made them opento putting up with this kind of
thing and maybe putting up isnot the right terminology but
allowed them to be comfortablewith something that maybe other
people wouldn't be comfortablewith.
And so I really want to talktoday about the way into the
(03:24):
relationship for me, the way outof the relationship for me, and
then the aftermath, the waythrough all of the trauma
afterwards.
Ingrid (03:33):
And that's fantastic.
And I think it's reallyimportant too, because a lot of
people will look at theserelationships and say you know,
if somebody hit me, I wouldnever put up with that, I would
be out of that relationship in aheartbeat.
And the thing is it doesn'tstart with somebody just hit you
.
There's a very insidiousprocess to get to that point.
Emma Jean (03:53):
That's right.
And one thing I say a lot inthose circumstances, when I hear
someone else maybe bejudgmental of someone who has
endured abuse and why didn'tthey leave is it doesn't feel
the same from the inside, thatit feels to look at it from the
outside, because you have allthat context.
So I like to think of it thisway If you read in the paper
(04:15):
that someone has a DUI and yousee their name and you see the
street they were driving on andthe time they were pulled over
and that they you know they wereabove the legal limit, then in
your mind you have those factsand you say that person is a
drunk driver and they're a badperson and maybe they're a drunk
or something, and you cast ajudgment based on those things.
(04:37):
Whereas, let's say, I have afriend who calls me and says oh
my gosh, last night I had onetoo many and I thought I was
okay to drive and I luckily madeit home, but I think I had had
too many and I really need towatch that.
With all of that context, I'mnot judging that person right
(04:59):
and we have forgiveness forpeople who we know.
We give grace to people we knowAn abusive relationship is much
the same.
You have all of this wonderfulhistory with the person and it
gives you the space to give themgrace.
But for those of us who stay inthese relationships, maybe
(05:20):
there is a reason that we forsome reason gave them more grace
relationships.
Maybe there is a reason that wefor some reason gave them more
grace, or maybe maybe there's alittle bit of brainwashing or
we're in the haze of survivalmode.
Ingrid (05:30):
It's it's much more complicated than the black and
white of it.
I completely agree.
So so take us there.
Emma Jean (05:38):
Take us to how you got in it, okay, I'm going to
read a passage from early in thebook, and this is a scene I'm
setting up where I have justbegun.
To date, alec Maybe I'm a fewmonths in, so this is chapter
three.
Despite his enamored treatmentof me, alec reveals an easily
(06:00):
tripped trigger.
Three times in the first fourmonths of our relationship he
abruptly breaks up with me oververy minor disagreements Once
over a bartender giving me afree beer after botching another
person's order.
Once when we disagree about thetheme of Casablanca during our
Best Picture movie marathonphase and another time after
what Dee and I later refer to asthe night of the Coke grenade.
(06:23):
The Coke grenade occurs on anunseasonably warm night in
October.
Walking home from a party atthe 4th Street, sigma Chi House,
dee, alec and I stop atHardee's for a late night snack.
It's a long walk through thehills of town and when the
Monster Burger calls you answer.
As the three of us trudge fromour meal, sluggish and
intoxicated in the heat, deeasks me if I've ever heard of
(06:45):
the new nickname Alec has earnedwith the sorority girls in her
house.
No, tell me.
I demand.
Can I tell her?
Holt?
She asks.
He grins I don't want to beembarrassed.
Oh, come on, you have to tellme now.
I say jostling Dee by hershoulders, she obliges.
Instead of Holtman, she saysthey call him Hottie man Dee and
(07:08):
I stop in our tracks, doubledover in laughter.
Hottie man, we point at Alec,cackling Alec holds up both
hands, attempting to put agood-humored halt to our mockery
.
Oh, holt Dee says, don't beembarrassed, they call me Dirty
Dee after all, and it's betterthan what I would nickname you
Dolt man.
I snort and Alex's grin suddenlymelts as he pans slowly from me
(07:31):
to Dee and, without hesitation,hurls his extra large, full
plastic Hardee's cup at Dee withall his force.
It hits her like a shot to hertorso from just a few feet away,
saturating her white crop topand khaki miniskirt and leaving
a rosy cup-sized sting mark onher exposed stomach.
Dee looks down at herself inastonishment, brown cola
(07:54):
dripping like muddy raindropsfrom her hair, chin and fingers.
Holt, what the hell?
Alex stands expressionless andunaffected.
Don't make fun of my name everagain, he says in a subdued,
matter-of-fact tone.
I close my mouth, realizingit's been a gape this whole time
.
Alec, you can't do that.
I'm so sorry, dee.
(08:14):
I grovel as I squat down,attempting to wipe her legs with
my bare hands.
Dee lays hands on both myshoulders, forming a two-person
crouched huddle with me.
It's okay, babe, she whispers,her eyelashes beaded with brown
droplets.
He's drunk, just go home.
I'm okay, I promise.
She says earnestly, but with aside of pity.
(08:35):
My face flushes withhumiliation.
I can't believe he did this.
Are you sure you're okay, I ask.
She nods, giving me a quicksqueeze before we part ways.
She heads up the hill to herapartment complex I forgive you,
holt, she yells from a distancewhen she is nearly out of sight
.
Alec and I walk home in quiettension the rest of the way to
(08:56):
my apartment where we are set tohole up and watch the deer
hunter.
Tonight, I hold my shouldersstiffly in protest as we stride,
careful not to let my handbrush his.
As I move, I feel humiliatedand I can taste the
disappointment in my fixed jaw.
As we approach my front door,he stops in his tracks,
announcing casually I'm headinghome.
(09:16):
Oh really why?
I ask in a petulant tone,rolling my eyes.
Because I don't have time forthis bullshit and this is a good
time in my life to be single.
He says, pursing his lips, notmeeting my eyes.
Because I don't have time forthis bullshit and this is a good
time in my life to be single.
He says, pursing his lips, notmeeting my eyes.
Are you kidding me?
This breakup shit again.
I yell in outrage.
My gut is on fire.
I've had it with his impulsivereactions to any disagreement
(09:38):
between us.
He stands silent and smug andthen turns striding away from me
up the walk as casually as ifhe were heading out to retrieve
the mail.
Try not to throw anything atanyone on your way home.
I yell as he disappears aroundthe corner.
Like our previous breakups, theaction is swift and unexpected,
and Alex's reticence to stickwith it over the next few days
(10:00):
is revealed through a total haltin all communication.
This time I resolved to makehim come crawling back to me, so
Dee and I avoid the evening kegparties the entire weekend,
staying in at the Sigma Kappahouse with wine and Biore strips
instead.
But eventually an impossible tomiss invitation to see Jesse's
band at the 12th street houselures us out and we make our way
(10:23):
there, knowing a run-in withAlec is inevitable and just like
a record that has started toskip.
The moment Alec and I lock eyes, dress purposely in our most
irresistible outfits.
The needle is set right againand our song plays on.
Ingrid (10:40):
That is so.
It just goes to show that theirbehavior isn't necessarily
tolerated right off the bat,that there is a point where the
victim will try to correct theirbehavior or point out that
something is inappropriate.
Yes, but then that also showsthat he's already using those
(11:04):
tactics of okay, well, we'regoing to break up.
Then, if you're going to be madat me about this or you know,
call me out on it.
Emma Jean (11:11):
Yes, I call that going big.
You know it's a smokescreenreally that I can't disagree
with you and this continued tobe the way we sort of danced
around each other all throughinto our marriage and through
the marriage I couldn't reallydisagree about things that you
should be allowed to have yourown opinion on, because he would
(11:32):
go big every time.
At some point he did stopbreaking up with me because we
got married, obviously.
But if you really look at thischapter, this is for me, looking
back a big red flag.
Now this was happening in the90s.
We didn't have the term redflag or we didn't use it this
way, and I think it's reallyhealthy that now, in our culture
(11:54):
, we do that.
I don't know if you've seen theflag guy on Instagram.
Ingrid (12:00):
With a giant red shirt.
Emma Jean (12:01):
Yes, I love him, I love him, I do too I think he's
doing a great thing for ourculture because you've got a man
who is calling out.
I mean, he does handle bothsexes, not equally but you've
got a man who is often callingout other men on their toxic
behavior.
(12:21):
We didn't have anything likethat in the 90s, right?
If something were to happenlike this, your boyfriend would
be backed up by all of the otherguys, all of his fraternity
brothers and maybe even some ofyour friends would go easy on
him and there was a lot ofexcuse making.
And I know that still happens.
I know that still is the case,um, but I do think that now
(12:43):
we're calling out what, whatthis is, and these are red flags
.
So this is a person who hasnever hurt me at this point in
the relationship, but ultimatelyhe's he's throwing something.
He's he's leaving a mark on myfriend.
He's leaving a mark on myfriend, he's showing signs of
abuse with my friend.
And now, at my age, or as ahealed person, I wouldn't get
(13:11):
past this date with this person,no matter how much history we
had or that we had already saidI love you and those things.
But as the unhealed version ofmyself, I was open to this.
I was clinging to wanting to bewith someone.
I was clinging to really theidyllic idea of who he was when
I met him, and everything isusually very positive in the
(13:32):
beginning of these relationships, right?
So if you cling to thebeginning of relationships and
that's all.
You go on, then you're ignoringall kinds of behavior along the
way that you really need to cueyourself, whether or not this
should be long-term or not.
Ingrid (13:49):
Yes, and I'm of the same era.
I'm of the Monster Burger era,walking home from the bars.
Emma Jean (13:55):
We'd hit up parties all the time.
Ingrid (13:59):
But yeah, you're absolutely right.
It was also in the 90s for meand there were no red flags.
You didn't know what that was.
But I think what's reallyimportant too is this was not
the first time he broke up withyou.
Yes, Right, yes.
And so when you start to noticebecause when people are
drinking there can bedisagreements, emotions are at a
(14:19):
high, so sometimes it'sdifficult to determine okay, is
this a real red flag or is thisjust normal behavior?
But when you pair things withrepetitive behavior, that's bad
behavior.
That's when you can say theseare definitely red flags.
Emma Jean (14:34):
That's right.
That's right, and I will tellyou this Prior to this, the
other times that he had brokenup with me, I am sure that I can
remember saying to myselfthat's it, that's it, if he's
done this enough times.
But I think there was a voicewithin me that was really sad,
was really hurt.
I am an empathic person and Iwas a sensitive person all the
(14:59):
way back to being a toddler.
I just was one of those moresensitive natured people.
I'm a very emotional person andI think the hurt and the
rejection that I felt wassomething that even if I was
saying I'm not putting up withthis and my words were bigger
than what I felt inside, becausereally what I wanted was for
him to turn around and say andreconcile it and say, oh, I
(15:21):
don't really mean that, becauseI was absorbing that as an
insult to myself rather thanusing it as a way to judge and
critique him.
And that is a real internalproblem that I see in a lot of
younger, sensitive or um, orinsecure people.
Everything is being read totake it internally instead of
(15:47):
judging the person and howthey're treating them.
Ingrid (15:51):
Oh my gosh.
Yes, and I think it's reallyimportant for people to
understand that if somebody isgoing to use I'm going to break
up with you as a punishment, youneed to realize that has
nothing to do with me.
He's not breaking up with me,or he or she is not breaking up
with me because I'm a bad personor I'm not enough.
They're doing it because that'san issue that they have
(16:14):
themselves.
That's right.
Emma Jean (16:15):
Actually, the next paragraph that I didn't tack
onto this is Alec never explainshimself after our
reconciliations, nor does heacknowledge what has caused him
to flip the switch.
But my intuition tells me eachtime that it has much more to do
with his past andextraordinarily little to do
with me.
So I understood that, but Ithink I almost took it, as this
(16:37):
isn't an insult to me.
This is something that I shouldfeel sorry for him about or
that you could fix.
That I could fix.
Ingrid (16:45):
Yes, right, yes, and I think that was my problem.
And you know my career, I'm anurse practitioner, so you know
I like to help people and fixthings, so I'm a fixer.
But yeah, those are definitelythings that within you you start
to question like, well, thatmight be them, but what can I do
(17:05):
to help them?
Emma Jean (17:07):
Yeah, with, that, yes , it's an if you have a
nurturing heart, and I thinkthat that's true for a lot of
women especially.
Of course there are lots of men.
My husband has a nurturingheart, and I think, for women
especially though, we areprogrammed to have these
maternal instincts right.
We're programmed to loveunconditionally our children and
(17:30):
protect them and heal them, andsometimes I think that bleeds
into our relationships.
And I had a therapist tell mewhen I was young and I should
have listened I actually was incounseling because one of the
times that Alec had broken upwith me I was so deeply sad that
I had to go into counseling sothat I could get back to class
and get past it.
(17:51):
And one of the things that shehad told me is that we don't, we
should not, have unconditionallove for our romantic
relationships.
That you know, you'll hearsongs about.
You know people loving theirpartner unconditionally, but
actually that's very dangerous.
Unconditional love should bereserved for children and
(18:14):
parents and family members andyou know, maybe some friends if
they've become like family butthat for a spouse or a partner
we have to always be conditionalbecause otherwise we're not
putting boundaries in place.
Otherwise we're not pushingback and we're training them
that they can treat us any waythat they like.
Ingrid (18:34):
I was just about to say unconditional equals no
boundaries.
Yes.
Emma Jean (18:38):
Yes, and that's such a slippery slope.
It really is.
Ingrid (18:43):
I think another thing I wanted to bring up is that you
were in your 20s.
You were in college when thiswas happening, and that's a very
impressionable age and it's avery difficult age to still
maneuver.
Yes, you may have hadrelationships in high school,
but they're not adultrelationships and they're not
you're living on your own andyou're in charge of yourself
(19:04):
kind of relationships.
So this is like your firstadult relationship and it's hard
to determine also, then, whatis normal, what's not normal.
Is this just a regular part ofa relationship?
Is this what everybody isexperiencing or is this
something that's out of theordinary?
Emma Jean (19:23):
Yes, absolutely, and I think I did look around at
that time and I did see thatthere was a difference between
other girls and me.
I would see girls with theirboyfriends who maybe things
weren't as intense and excitingas my relationship, but I could
see that they weren't having theproblems I was.
I could see that they weren'tas intense and exciting as my
relationship, but I could seethat they weren't having the
problems I was.
I could see that they weren'tcrying regularly like I was.
(19:46):
And I remember one of mygirlfriends saying to me one
time it's not normal to cryevery week about your
relationship.
I didn't really understand that.
I don't think I really believedthat.
Now I'm in a very, very healthymarriage and have been for over
a decade, and I can see exactlywhat they mean.
Now I'm not upset in thisrelationship.
(20:07):
I'm very happy and it would bean exception for us to have a
disagreement that led me to havesuch grief.
I can't even really think ofwhen that has happened.
Not that things are perfect,but we deal with things in a
healthy way.
This wasn't my first abusiverelationship.
This is the one that took methe furthest and to the furthest
(20:30):
damage, but prior to this.
I had had two to three othervery toxic, very intense
boyfriends who did things thatmy girlfriends were concerned
about and I just wasn't able torecognize it.
(20:51):
Maybe I did recognize itbecause I was looking around and
seeing that it wasn't this wayfor everyone, but maybe I just
didn't love myself enough tounderstand that I deserved
better.
And that's one of the big waysinto a relationship that's
unhealthy and abusive like thisis to not understand loving
(21:13):
yourself.
Ingrid (21:14):
Yeah, and I remember being in college and I was
single for quite a while andeverybody else around me was
coupling up.
I remember being in college andI was single for quite a while
and everybody else around me wascoupling up and you know I was
kind of thinking like, well,what's wrong with me?
How come I haven't foundsomebody yet?
And I actually had someone tellme well, you're setting your
standards too high.
And that stuck with me.
And so I was like you know, Iguess I am, so let me lower your
(21:39):
standards.
And I just want to say that isnot okay.
If you have standards, stick tothem.
If people aren't measuring upto them, there's a reason for
that.
Emma Jean (21:50):
Absolutely.
And if friends of yourboyfriend or your spouse are
sticking up for them or yourfriends are telling you you're
making too big of a deal, youhave to use your own barometer
and say, no, this isn't, thisisn't good enough.
And I think that's anotherproblem that I had at that age.
I didn't have a a reallystructured set of values for
(22:14):
what I wanted, what I deservedin a relationship and what I
shouldn't put up with.
And my parents had a troubledmarriage.
It was not abusive, it wasquiet, it was loveless and it
really it taught me this is notwhat I want, but it didn't give
(22:34):
me an example of anything that Ishould look towards, and my
parents also.
You know this was again.
This was the 90s.
It was less frequent to bedivorced and I don't fault my
mother for that.
I don't fault my father forthat.
They were in that era of it'sbest to stay together for the
kids.
That's a nice sentiment, but inpractice it sets your child up
(22:56):
to have no roadmap for where togo.
I knew I didn't want somethinglike their marriage, so I was
seeking intensity and it wasputting me in a lot of hot water
to do that.
Ingrid (23:10):
That was.
I knew there were a lot ofparallels that I drew with
myself and your story.
That same for me.
My parents actually divorced myfreshman year of college and I
remember, prior to going homeand learning about them planning
to separate, just that Fridayor before whatever I left, I was
telling my roommate I'm like,yeah, my parents have been
(23:31):
married and they have such agreat marriage and blah, blah,
blah.
But it was the same thing.
It was just very there was nointensity to it.
There was just kind of nothing.
It was like everybody was justcoexisting is what the
relationship was, and I neverthought that I was probably
looking for some intensity.
But now that you mention it,maybe that's what I was looking
(23:53):
for too.
Emma Jean (23:53):
Sure, and it became almost addictive to me, right,
because I didn't see thatgrowing up in my home.
You know, I saw these really,really lukewarm interactions
between my parents.
You know the kiss goodbye everymorning.
And again, I'm not faulting myparents, I think they did the
best they could and I also thinkpeople married very young then
and maybe didn't know enoughabout themselves to choose a
(24:15):
partner that was going to maybebe the best lasting love down
the road.
But that intensity when it wasapplied to me, it felt so
addictive, just because I thinkI had craved to see something
like that between my parents andto see a display of love.
(24:36):
And so for me, I think I wasprobably looking at what you see
on TV and what you read inbooks, which is not it's not
always healthy, right, thestories that we read, you know,
I mean, you see, even now inthese fantasy novels, I love to
read those, but it's not alwayshealthy dynamics.
They happen to pan out in theend because it's fiction and the
(24:56):
writer can do whatever theywant, but a lot of these enemies
to lovers stories probablywould not pan out that way in
the end.
Ingrid (25:04):
Right, there are red flags there, right, yeah, and as
adults or as women who havegone through what we've gone
through, we can see that.
But then when you haveadolescents you know teenagers
or college age students readingthese, they think they normalize
it.
Emma Jean (25:21):
Yes, normal behavior yes absolutely it's and you know
it's just not healthy.
But again, if you have no otherroadmap for how you should be
treated and for what to walkaway from, then you're just kind
of out there on your own.
And in this case I was 21 yearsold.
I just didn't know enough.
I just didn't know enough towalk away.
(25:41):
I was just I was writing my ownhandbook, enough, I just didn't
know enough to walk away.
I was just I was writing my ownhandbook and I think a lot of
it was based on this guy beinggood looking and sort of the,
the package of him.
You know what I, what I likedabout the traits about him very
smart, very, um, charismatic andI was clinging to those things
and and not putting enoughweight on how he was treating me
(26:02):
, how he was treating my friends.
Ingrid (26:05):
And the other thing is that you had mentioned when you
first met him, there's all thesepeople around him that just
adored him.
Yes, so then you think you knowif he's a bad guy, all these
people wouldn't like him.
But the thing about abusers isthey only surround themselves
with people who do believe theirstory or fall into their
charisma, who do believe theirstory or fall into their
charisma, and if somebodydoesn't, if somebody's
(26:30):
questioning it, they don'tnecessarily get mad at them, but
they might just.
I'm not going to hang out withthat person anymore.
They see right through myfacade here.
So of course, they're going tobe surrounded by adoration,
because that's what they do,sure, and I think they slowly
phase those people out, right.
Emma Jean (26:44):
And so in this case he was a really, really
intelligent guy and if you hadlooked at all the fraternities
at my school, there was anacademic fraternity where he
could have probably fit right in.
Instead he was in thisdifferent type of fraternity
where they were kind of partyanimals.
A lot of them were on drugs,nobody was academic, but I think
(27:06):
it made him a big fish in asmall pond and I am not going to
say that I know for sure he wasa narcissist at that time.
Clearly, when you read the bookyou'll see that there are these
other kind of comorbid mentalillnesses that come into play
much later.
But looking back, knowing nowwhat I have read about
narcissists, I do think therewas a lot of grandiosity with
(27:28):
him that I didn't have theterminology for.
I didn't know to steer awayfrom that at that age.
Ingrid (27:35):
And even now, even though there are all of these
labels and, you know, there'sall the social media awareness
of these personality traits andthe red flags, even then there's
still not really a lot ofactual direct education for
youth to be aware of what towatch out for and what traits
and relationships are concerningand not okay.
(27:59):
So I think that's one thingthat we could probably do better
with is, you know, starting aneducation at a younger age as to
what is not okay, what isnormal, what's not okay, what
you need to go away from.
Emma Jean (28:14):
Absolutely.
I think that's really true.
I know there are some programs,you know like.
I used to coach for girls onthe run when my daughter was
young and a lot of that wasabout sort of handling your own
emotions and teaching girls tobe positive and to not put up
with bullying and not to bully.
But there is a little bit inthat they dabble in, you know,
(28:36):
not letting yourself be treatedpoorly.
We didn't have any of that whenI was growing up.
It's just that wasn't a thing,that just wasn't.
Ingrid (28:43):
Our parents didn't even know where we were.
Emma Jean (28:47):
Absolutely not.
I mean, we didn't have cellphones and we weren't educating
ourselves on mental health.
You know, I know it's oh gosh.
You know there's so many TikTokexperts and so many Instagram
experts and people really kindof laugh at that.
But I have learned a lotthrough through.
You know, some of those are,some of those are really, I
(29:10):
think, valuable experts who doknow what they're talking about
and I'm just in those littlesnippets and those reels.
I've learned a lot of thingsabout narcissists and about
toxic behavior that I didn'treally understand before when I
was, when I was up against it.
Ingrid (29:25):
Yeah, and even if some of it's not accurate, it's at
least opening the door forconversation.
And that's what I love abouttoday is that mental health is
more normal, like therapy isnormal now, and when I was
growing up it was kind of a well, there's something wrong with
you if you have to go see atherapist or, you know, if there
was a big traumatic event, thenof course it was understandable
(29:48):
that, okay, of course you haveto go talk to somebody about
this, but you know, just, I'mfeeling anxious.
That wasn't something that youcould go talk about.
Emma Jean (30:00):
Imagine what your parents would have said if you
said, I'm really anxious and Ineed to go see a therapist.
I mean it just it was adifferent time, but you know
that stuff is really valuablenow and my gosh, I mean I, every
child.
You know, my husband and I havea blended family of five.
Every child in this family hasbeen sent to therapy for one
thing or another.
(30:20):
And it's us saying you know,just go talk to someone.
There's no reason not to.
What you learn in therapyyou'll never unlearn.
It's not like exercise, whereyou lose the gains, you keep
them and you get better andbetter and you build on it.
And it's a valuable resourcethat we just didn't use enough,
when you know when I was goingthrough this.
But that's also why I wanted towrite my book in a way that I
(30:44):
didn't just tell the story ofthe abuse and when the abuse
happened and how horrific thatis.
I know that part is it's juicyand it's interesting to people
from the outside, but it'sreally important to me through
this book that the people I'mreaching can see themselves in
it or can see someone they knowand love in it and can see
themselves in those early partsbefore the violence or the
(31:08):
verbal abuse began, becausethere are so many common threads
between victimized women andvictimized men.
There are a lot of littlethings, a lot of little seeds
planted that happen long beforewe endure the abuse.
Ingrid (31:29):
There are, and I think it's really great.
Even if you don't know somebodythat's going through it or you
aren't somebody that's goingthrough it, it at least gives
you a little bit more of anunderstanding and perhaps
compassion for those, and it'snot so black and white like I
would have left thatrelationship.
I don't understand why thatperson is putting up with it for
so long.
So I think that you did a goodjob about explaining how you get
(31:52):
pulled into these kinds ofrelationships and I really liked
our conversation going intothat further.
So we're going to end ourepisode today, but you're going
to be back next week with, like,what happens when you get out.
Yes, I'll be.
Emma Jean (32:07):
I'll be speaking today.
I spoke about the way into therelationship for me, and then,
next episode, I'll be speakingabout the way out for me.
Ingrid (32:14):
Okay, all right, so we'll be back next week.
I would like to say thank youagain to Emma Jean for joining
me today and thank you forlistening.
I have included the link toEmma Jean's one in three profile
.
Thank you for listening.
I have included the link toEmma Jean's one in three profile
in the show notes.
I will be back next week, asEmma Jean returns, to once again
discuss and read an excerptfrom her book.
When things collapse.
(32:34):
Until then, stay strong andwherever you are in your journey
, always remember you are notalone.
Find more information, registeras a guest or leave a review by
going to the websiteoneandthreepodcastcom.
That's the number one, i-n.
The number three podcastcom.
(32:54):
Follow One in Three onInstagram, facebook and Twitter
at One in Three Podcast.
To help me out, please rememberto rate, review and subscribe.
One in three is a 0.5 Pinoyproduction music written and
performed by Tim Crow.
Hi Warriors, welcome to 1 in 3.
I'm your host, ingrid.
A comment I hear far too oftenis I would never be or stay in
an abusive relationship, andwhile I truly hope that's the
case, the reality is far morecomplex.
Today, author Emma Jean Rowanreads a portion from her book
when Things Collapse, followedby a discussion about the red
(00:22):
flags we personally missed alongthe way.
We also offer advice on how tospot the behaviors that should
make you run, becauserecognizing those signs early
can make all the difference.
So let's dive in.
Here's Emma Jean.
Hi, emma Jean, welcome to Onein Three.
(00:43):
Thank you so much for joiningme today.
Hi thank you for having me.
Okay, so you wrote a booktitled when Things Collapse.
Do you mind just giving a briefbackground before we get into
what we want to talk about today?
Emma Jean (00:58):
Sure, I'm Emma Jean Rowan and, as you said, I'm the
author of when Things Collapse.
Jean Rowan, and, as you said,I'm the author of when Things
Collapse, 15 years ago, I tookmy two children and I left an
abusive marriage, and during the15 years that followed, I
focused all my attention onrebuilding my life for my kids,
making sure they were okay,making sure they were able to
thrive the same as otherchildren, and really just
(01:20):
grappling my way through dealingwith what I had exposed them to
.
Recently, though, I became anempty nester when my children
went to college and I started tofinally have the space to think
about myself and what I hadendured in my own experience in
the abuse of marriage, and thestory from there just poured
(01:40):
from within me.
My story starts in 2014, when Iwas grocery shopping with my
kids and I got a call that myestranged ex-husband had become
an active shooter, and fromthere I'm forced in the story to
confront the truth of my pasthow I got into the relationship,
the way that my husband changedfrom this idyllic partner
(02:03):
spiraling into a doomsdayprepper and an abusive spouse,
and my journey to try to save mykids from that.
Ingrid (02:13):
And the book is very well written.
I like how you go from presenttense of what's happening and
then you do a flashback as tohow you got into the
relationship.
And I think that's reallyimportant in in these situations
of domestic violence is tounderstand how anybody can end
up in a relationship like this,and then what you do once you're
in it and how you get out, andI love how you go through each
(02:35):
of those steps and that's whatwe're going to do today.
Emma Jean (02:38):
Right, you're going to take us through those steps.
Ingrid (02:41):
Yes, yes Thank you.
Emma Jean (02:43):
So, yes, and I wrote it that way because I do think
it's important to go backwardsin time.
When you look at an abusivesituation, you may know a person
who's going through abuse andyou may have that part of the
story.
But I think if you go way backin time, there are a lot of
things that you can draw ties tothat.
(03:04):
Maybe this led the person toaccept this, or this piece of
their childhood made them opento putting up with this kind of
thing and maybe putting up isnot the right terminology but
allowed them to be comfortablewith something that maybe other
people wouldn't be comfortablewith.
And so I really want to talktoday about the way into the
(03:24):
relationship for me, the way outof the relationship for me, and
then the aftermath, the waythrough all of the trauma
afterwards.
Ingrid (03:33):
And that's fantastic.
And I think it's reallyimportant too, because a lot of
people will look at theserelationships and say you know,
if somebody hit me, I wouldnever put up with that, I would
be out of that relationship in aheartbeat.
And the thing is it doesn'tstart with somebody just hit you
.
There's a very insidiousprocess to get to that point.
Emma Jean (03:53):
That's right.
And one thing I say a lot inthose circumstances, when I hear
someone else maybe bejudgmental of someone who has
endured abuse and why didn'tthey leave is it doesn't feel
the same from the inside, thatit feels to look at it from the
outside, because you have allthat context.
So I like to think of it thisway If you read in the paper
(04:15):
that someone has a DUI and yousee their name and you see the
street they were driving on andthe time they were pulled over
and that they you know they wereabove the legal limit, then in
your mind you have those factsand you say that person is a
drunk driver and they're a badperson and maybe they're a drunk
or something, and you cast ajudgment based on those things.
(04:37):
Whereas, let's say, I have afriend who calls me and says oh
my gosh, last night I had onetoo many and I thought I was
okay to drive and I luckily madeit home, but I think I had had
too many and I really need towatch that.
With all of that context, I'mnot judging that person right
(04:59):
and we have forgiveness forpeople who we know.
We give grace to people we knowAn abusive relationship is much
the same.
You have all of this wonderfulhistory with the person and it
gives you the space to give themgrace.
But for those of us who stay inthese relationships, maybe
(05:20):
there is a reason that we forsome reason gave them more grace
relationships.
Maybe there is a reason that wefor some reason gave them more
grace, or maybe maybe there's alittle bit of brainwashing or
we're in the haze of survivalmode.
Ingrid (05:30):
It's it's much more complicated than the black and
white of it.
I completely agree.
So so take us there.
Emma Jean (05:38):
Take us to how you got in it, okay, I'm going to
read a passage from early in thebook, and this is a scene I'm
setting up where I have justbegun.
To date, alec Maybe I'm a fewmonths in, so this is chapter
three.
Despite his enamored treatmentof me, alec reveals an easily
(06:00):
tripped trigger.
Three times in the first fourmonths of our relationship he
abruptly breaks up with me oververy minor disagreements Once
over a bartender giving me afree beer after botching another
person's order.
Once when we disagree about thetheme of Casablanca during our
Best Picture movie marathonphase and another time after
what Dee and I later refer to asthe night of the Coke grenade.
(06:23):
The Coke grenade occurs on anunseasonably warm night in
October.
Walking home from a party atthe 4th Street, sigma Chi House,
dee, alec and I stop atHardee's for a late night snack.
It's a long walk through thehills of town and when the
Monster Burger calls you answer.
As the three of us trudge fromour meal, sluggish and
intoxicated in the heat, deeasks me if I've ever heard of
(06:45):
the new nickname Alec has earnedwith the sorority girls in her
house.
No, tell me.
I demand.
Can I tell her?
Holt?
She asks.
He grins I don't want to beembarrassed.
Oh, come on, you have to tellme now.
I say jostling Dee by hershoulders, she obliges.
Instead of Holtman, she saysthey call him Hottie man Dee and
(07:08):
I stop in our tracks, doubledover in laughter.
Hottie man, we point at Alec,cackling Alec holds up both
hands, attempting to put agood-humored halt to our mockery
.
Oh, holt Dee says, don't beembarrassed, they call me Dirty
Dee after all, and it's betterthan what I would nickname you
Dolt man.
I snort and Alex's grin suddenlymelts as he pans slowly from me
(07:31):
to Dee and, without hesitation,hurls his extra large, full
plastic Hardee's cup at Dee withall his force.
It hits her like a shot to hertorso from just a few feet away,
saturating her white crop topand khaki miniskirt and leaving
a rosy cup-sized sting mark onher exposed stomach.
Dee looks down at herself inastonishment, brown cola
(07:54):
dripping like muddy raindropsfrom her hair, chin and fingers.
Holt, what the hell?
Alex stands expressionless andunaffected.
Don't make fun of my name everagain, he says in a subdued,
matter-of-fact tone.
I close my mouth, realizingit's been a gape this whole time
.
Alec, you can't do that.
I'm so sorry, dee.
(08:14):
I grovel as I squat down,attempting to wipe her legs with
my bare hands.
Dee lays hands on both myshoulders, forming a two-person
crouched huddle with me.
It's okay, babe, she whispers,her eyelashes beaded with brown
droplets.
He's drunk, just go home.
I'm okay, I promise.
She says earnestly, but with aside of pity.
(08:35):
My face flushes withhumiliation.
I can't believe he did this.
Are you sure you're okay, I ask.
She nods, giving me a quicksqueeze before we part ways.
She heads up the hill to herapartment complex I forgive you,
holt, she yells from a distancewhen she is nearly out of sight
.
Alec and I walk home in quiettension the rest of the way to
(08:56):
my apartment where we are set tohole up and watch the deer
hunter.
Tonight, I hold my shouldersstiffly in protest as we stride,
careful not to let my handbrush his.
As I move, I feel humiliatedand I can taste the
disappointment in my fixed jaw.
As we approach my front door,he stops in his tracks,
announcing casually I'm headinghome.
(09:16):
Oh really why?
I ask in a petulant tone,rolling my eyes.
Because I don't have time forthis bullshit and this is a good
time in my life to be single.
He says, pursing his lips, notmeeting my eyes.
Because I don't have time forthis bullshit and this is a good
time in my life to be single.
He says, pursing his lips, notmeeting my eyes.
Are you kidding me?
This breakup shit again.
I yell in outrage.
My gut is on fire.
I've had it with his impulsivereactions to any disagreement
(09:38):
between us.
He stands silent and smug andthen turns striding away from me
up the walk as casually as ifhe were heading out to retrieve
the mail.
Try not to throw anything atanyone on your way home.
I yell as he disappears aroundthe corner.
Like our previous breakups, theaction is swift and unexpected,
and Alex's reticence to stickwith it over the next few days
(10:00):
is revealed through a total haltin all communication.
This time I resolved to makehim come crawling back to me, so
Dee and I avoid the evening kegparties the entire weekend,
staying in at the Sigma Kappahouse with wine and Biore strips
instead.
But eventually an impossible tomiss invitation to see Jesse's
band at the 12th street houselures us out and we make our way
(10:23):
there, knowing a run-in withAlec is inevitable and just like
a record that has started toskip.
The moment Alec and I lock eyes, dress purposely in our most
irresistible outfits.
The needle is set right againand our song plays on.
Ingrid (10:40):
That is so.
It just goes to show that theirbehavior isn't necessarily
tolerated right off the bat,that there is a point where the
victim will try to correct theirbehavior or point out that
something is inappropriate.
Yes, but then that also showsthat he's already using those
(11:04):
tactics of okay, well, we'regoing to break up.
Then, if you're going to be madat me about this or you know,
call me out on it.
Emma Jean (11:11):
Yes, I call that going big.
You know it's a smokescreenreally that I can't disagree
with you and this continued tobe the way we sort of danced
around each other all throughinto our marriage and through
the marriage I couldn't reallydisagree about things that you
should be allowed to have yourown opinion on, because he would
(11:32):
go big every time.
At some point he did stopbreaking up with me because we
got married, obviously.
But if you really look at thischapter, this is for me, looking
back a big red flag.
Now this was happening in the90s.
We didn't have the term redflag or we didn't use it this
way, and I think it's reallyhealthy that now, in our culture
(11:54):
, we do that.
I don't know if you've seen theflag guy on Instagram.
Ingrid (12:00):
With a giant red shirt.
Emma Jean (12:01):
Yes, I love him, I love him, I do too I think he's
doing a great thing for ourculture because you've got a man
who is calling out.
I mean, he does handle bothsexes, not equally but you've
got a man who is often callingout other men on their toxic
behavior.
(12:21):
We didn't have anything likethat in the 90s, right?
If something were to happenlike this, your boyfriend would
be backed up by all of the otherguys, all of his fraternity
brothers and maybe even some ofyour friends would go easy on
him and there was a lot ofexcuse making.
And I know that still happens.
I know that still is the case,um, but I do think that now
(12:43):
we're calling out what, whatthis is, and these are red flags
.
So this is a person who hasnever hurt me at this point in
the relationship, but ultimatelyhe's he's throwing something.
He's he's leaving a mark on myfriend.
He's leaving a mark on myfriend, he's showing signs of
abuse with my friend.
And now, at my age, or as ahealed person, I wouldn't get
(13:11):
past this date with this person,no matter how much history we
had or that we had already saidI love you and those things.
But as the unhealed version ofmyself, I was open to this.
I was clinging to wanting to bewith someone.
I was clinging to really theidyllic idea of who he was when
I met him, and everything isusually very positive in the
(13:32):
beginning of these relationships, right?
So if you cling to thebeginning of relationships and
that's all.
You go on, then you're ignoringall kinds of behavior along the
way that you really need to cueyourself, whether or not this
should be long-term or not.
Ingrid (13:49):
Yes, and I'm of the same era.
I'm of the Monster Burger era,walking home from the bars.
Emma Jean (13:55):
We'd hit up parties all the time.
Ingrid (13:59):
But yeah, you're absolutely right.
It was also in the 90s for meand there were no red flags.
You didn't know what that was.
But I think what's reallyimportant too is this was not
the first time he broke up withyou.
Yes, Right, yes.
And so when you start to noticebecause when people are
drinking there can bedisagreements, emotions are at a
(14:19):
high, so sometimes it'sdifficult to determine okay, is
this a real red flag or is thisjust normal behavior?
But when you pair things withrepetitive behavior, that's bad
behavior.
That's when you can say theseare definitely red flags.
Emma Jean (14:34):
That's right.
That's right, and I will tellyou this Prior to this, the
other times that he had brokenup with me, I am sure that I can
remember saying to myselfthat's it, that's it, if he's
done this enough times.
But I think there was a voicewithin me that was really sad,
was really hurt.
I am an empathic person and Iwas a sensitive person all the
(14:59):
way back to being a toddler.
I just was one of those moresensitive natured people.
I'm a very emotional person andI think the hurt and the
rejection that I felt wassomething that even if I was
saying I'm not putting up withthis and my words were bigger
than what I felt inside, becausereally what I wanted was for
him to turn around and say andreconcile it and say, oh, I
(15:21):
don't really mean that, becauseI was absorbing that as an
insult to myself rather thanusing it as a way to judge and
critique him.
And that is a real internalproblem that I see in a lot of
younger, sensitive or um, orinsecure people.
Everything is being read totake it internally instead of
(15:47):
judging the person and howthey're treating them.
Ingrid (15:51):
Oh my gosh.
Yes, and I think it's reallyimportant for people to
understand that if somebody isgoing to use I'm going to break
up with you as a punishment, youneed to realize that has
nothing to do with me.
He's not breaking up with me,or he or she is not breaking up
with me because I'm a bad personor I'm not enough.
They're doing it because that'san issue that they have
(16:14):
themselves.
That's right.
Emma Jean (16:15):
Actually, the next paragraph that I didn't tack
onto this is Alec never explainshimself after our
reconciliations, nor does heacknowledge what has caused him
to flip the switch.
But my intuition tells me eachtime that it has much more to do
with his past andextraordinarily little to do
with me.
So I understood that, but Ithink I almost took it, as this
(16:37):
isn't an insult to me.
This is something that I shouldfeel sorry for him about or
that you could fix.
That I could fix.
Ingrid (16:45):
Yes, right, yes, and I think that was my problem.
And you know my career, I'm anurse practitioner, so you know
I like to help people and fixthings, so I'm a fixer.
But yeah, those are definitelythings that within you you start
to question like, well, thatmight be them, but what can I do
(17:05):
to help them?
Emma Jean (17:07):
Yeah, with, that, yes , it's an if you have a
nurturing heart, and I thinkthat that's true for a lot of
women especially.
Of course there are lots of men.
My husband has a nurturingheart, and I think, for women
especially though, we areprogrammed to have these
maternal instincts right.
We're programmed to loveunconditionally our children and
(17:30):
protect them and heal them, andsometimes I think that bleeds
into our relationships.
And I had a therapist tell mewhen I was young and I should
have listened I actually was incounseling because one of the
times that Alec had broken upwith me I was so deeply sad that
I had to go into counseling sothat I could get back to class
and get past it.
(17:51):
And one of the things that shehad told me is that we don't, we
should not, have unconditionallove for our romantic
relationships.
That you know, you'll hearsongs about.
You know people loving theirpartner unconditionally, but
actually that's very dangerous.
Unconditional love should bereserved for children and
(18:14):
parents and family members andyou know, maybe some friends if
they've become like family butthat for a spouse or a partner
we have to always be conditionalbecause otherwise we're not
putting boundaries in place.
Otherwise we're not pushingback and we're training them
that they can treat us any waythat they like.
Ingrid (18:34):
I was just about to say unconditional equals no
boundaries.
Yes.
Emma Jean (18:38):
Yes, and that's such a slippery slope.
It really is.
Ingrid (18:43):
I think another thing I wanted to bring up is that you
were in your 20s.
You were in college when thiswas happening, and that's a very
impressionable age and it's avery difficult age to still
maneuver.
Yes, you may have hadrelationships in high school,
but they're not adultrelationships and they're not
you're living on your own andyou're in charge of yourself
(19:04):
kind of relationships.
So this is like your firstadult relationship and it's hard
to determine also, then, whatis normal, what's not normal.
Is this just a regular part ofa relationship?
Is this what everybody isexperiencing or is this
something that's out of theordinary?
Emma Jean (19:23):
Yes, absolutely, and I think I did look around at
that time and I did see thatthere was a difference between
other girls and me.
I would see girls with theirboyfriends who maybe things
weren't as intense and excitingas my relationship, but I could
see that they weren't having theproblems I was.
I could see that they weren'tas intense and exciting as my
relationship, but I could seethat they weren't having the
problems I was.
I could see that they weren'tcrying regularly like I was.
(19:46):
And I remember one of mygirlfriends saying to me one
time it's not normal to cryevery week about your
relationship.
I didn't really understand that.
I don't think I really believedthat.
Now I'm in a very, very healthymarriage and have been for over
a decade, and I can see exactlywhat they mean.
Now I'm not upset in thisrelationship.
(20:07):
I'm very happy and it would bean exception for us to have a
disagreement that led me to havesuch grief.
I can't even really think ofwhen that has happened.
Not that things are perfect,but we deal with things in a
healthy way.
This wasn't my first abusiverelationship.
This is the one that took methe furthest and to the furthest
(20:30):
damage, but prior to this.
I had had two to three othervery toxic, very intense
boyfriends who did things thatmy girlfriends were concerned
about and I just wasn't able torecognize it.
(20:51):
Maybe I did recognize itbecause I was looking around and
seeing that it wasn't this wayfor everyone, but maybe I just
didn't love myself enough tounderstand that I deserved
better.
And that's one of the big waysinto a relationship that's
unhealthy and abusive like thisis to not understand loving
(21:13):
yourself.
Ingrid (21:14):
Yeah, and I remember being in college and I was
single for quite a while andeverybody else around me was
coupling up.
I remember being in college andI was single for quite a while
and everybody else around me wascoupling up and you know I was
kind of thinking like, well,what's wrong with me?
How come I haven't foundsomebody yet?
And I actually had someone tellme well, you're setting your
standards too high.
And that stuck with me.
And so I was like you know, Iguess I am, so let me lower your
(21:39):
standards.
And I just want to say that isnot okay.
If you have standards, stick tothem.
If people aren't measuring upto them, there's a reason for
that.
Emma Jean (21:50):
Absolutely.
And if friends of yourboyfriend or your spouse are
sticking up for them or yourfriends are telling you you're
making too big of a deal, youhave to use your own barometer
and say, no, this isn't, thisisn't good enough.
And I think that's anotherproblem that I had at that age.
I didn't have a a reallystructured set of values for
(22:14):
what I wanted, what I deservedin a relationship and what I
shouldn't put up with.
And my parents had a troubledmarriage.
It was not abusive, it wasquiet, it was loveless and it
really it taught me this is notwhat I want, but it didn't give
(22:34):
me an example of anything that Ishould look towards, and my
parents also.
You know this was again.
This was the 90s.
It was less frequent to bedivorced and I don't fault my
mother for that.
I don't fault my father forthat.
They were in that era of it'sbest to stay together for the
kids.
That's a nice sentiment, but inpractice it sets your child up
(22:56):
to have no roadmap for where togo.
I knew I didn't want somethinglike their marriage, so I was
seeking intensity and it wasputting me in a lot of hot water
to do that.
Ingrid (23:10):
That was.
I knew there were a lot ofparallels that I drew with
myself and your story.
That same for me.
My parents actually divorced myfreshman year of college and I
remember, prior to going homeand learning about them planning
to separate, just that Fridayor before whatever I left, I was
telling my roommate I'm like,yeah, my parents have been
(23:31):
married and they have such agreat marriage and blah, blah,
blah.
But it was the same thing.
It was just very there was nointensity to it.
There was just kind of nothing.
It was like everybody was justcoexisting is what the
relationship was, and I neverthought that I was probably
looking for some intensity.
But now that you mention it,maybe that's what I was looking
(23:53):
for too.
Emma Jean (23:53):
Sure, and it became almost addictive to me, right,
because I didn't see thatgrowing up in my home.
You know, I saw these really,really lukewarm interactions
between my parents.
You know the kiss goodbye everymorning.
And again, I'm not faulting myparents, I think they did the
best they could and I also thinkpeople married very young then
and maybe didn't know enoughabout themselves to choose a
(24:15):
partner that was going to maybebe the best lasting love down
the road.
But that intensity when it wasapplied to me, it felt so
addictive, just because I thinkI had craved to see something
like that between my parents andto see a display of love.
(24:36):
And so for me, I think I wasprobably looking at what you see
on TV and what you read inbooks, which is not it's not
always healthy, right, thestories that we read, you know,
I mean, you see, even now inthese fantasy novels, I love to
read those, but it's not alwayshealthy dynamics.
They happen to pan out in theend because it's fiction and the
(24:56):
writer can do whatever theywant, but a lot of these enemies
to lovers stories probablywould not pan out that way in
the end.
Ingrid (25:04):
Right, there are red flags there, right, yeah, and as
adults or as women who havegone through what we've gone
through, we can see that.
But then when you haveadolescents you know teenagers
or college age students readingthese, they think they normalize
it.
Emma Jean (25:21):
Yes, normal behavior yes absolutely it's and you know
it's just not healthy.
But again, if you have no otherroadmap for how you should be
treated and for what to walkaway from, then you're just kind
of out there on your own.
And in this case I was 21 yearsold.
I just didn't know enough.
I just didn't know enough towalk away.
(25:41):
I was just I was writing my ownhandbook, enough, I just didn't
know enough to walk away.
I was just I was writing my ownhandbook and I think a lot of
it was based on this guy beinggood looking and sort of the,
the package of him.
You know what I, what I likedabout the traits about him very
smart, very, um, charismatic andI was clinging to those things
and and not putting enoughweight on how he was treating me
(26:02):
, how he was treating my friends.
Ingrid (26:05):
And the other thing is that you had mentioned when you
first met him, there's all thesepeople around him that just
adored him.
Yes, so then you think you knowif he's a bad guy, all these
people wouldn't like him.
But the thing about abusers isthey only surround themselves
with people who do believe theirstory or fall into their
charisma, who do believe theirstory or fall into their
charisma, and if somebodydoesn't, if somebody's
(26:30):
questioning it, they don'tnecessarily get mad at them, but
they might just.
I'm not going to hang out withthat person anymore.
They see right through myfacade here.
So of course, they're going tobe surrounded by adoration,
because that's what they do,sure, and I think they slowly
phase those people out, right.
Emma Jean (26:44):
And so in this case he was a really, really
intelligent guy and if you hadlooked at all the fraternities
at my school, there was anacademic fraternity where he
could have probably fit right in.
Instead he was in thisdifferent type of fraternity
where they were kind of partyanimals.
A lot of them were on drugs,nobody was academic, but I think
(27:06):
it made him a big fish in asmall pond and I am not going to
say that I know for sure he wasa narcissist at that time.
Clearly, when you read the bookyou'll see that there are these
other kind of comorbid mentalillnesses that come into play
much later.
But looking back, knowing nowwhat I have read about
narcissists, I do think therewas a lot of grandiosity with
(27:28):
him that I didn't have theterminology for.
I didn't know to steer awayfrom that at that age.
Ingrid (27:35):
And even now, even though there are all of these
labels and, you know, there'sall the social media awareness
of these personality traits andthe red flags, even then there's
still not really a lot ofactual direct education for
youth to be aware of what towatch out for and what traits
and relationships are concerningand not okay.
(27:59):
So I think that's one thingthat we could probably do better
with is, you know, starting aneducation at a younger age as to
what is not okay, what isnormal, what's not okay, what
you need to go away from.
Emma Jean (28:14):
Absolutely.
I think that's really true.
I know there are some programs,you know like.
I used to coach for girls onthe run when my daughter was
young and a lot of that wasabout sort of handling your own
emotions and teaching girls tobe positive and to not put up
with bullying and not to bully.
But there is a little bit inthat they dabble in, you know,
(28:36):
not letting yourself be treatedpoorly.
We didn't have any of that whenI was growing up.
It's just that wasn't a thing,that just wasn't.
Ingrid (28:43):
Our parents didn't even know where we were.
Emma Jean (28:47):
Absolutely not.
I mean, we didn't have cellphones and we weren't educating
ourselves on mental health.
You know, I know it's oh gosh.
You know there's so many TikTokexperts and so many Instagram
experts and people really kindof laugh at that.
But I have learned a lotthrough through.
You know, some of those are,some of those are really, I
(29:10):
think, valuable experts who doknow what they're talking about
and I'm just in those littlesnippets and those reels.
I've learned a lot of thingsabout narcissists and about
toxic behavior that I didn'treally understand before when I
was, when I was up against it.
Ingrid (29:25):
Yeah, and even if some of it's not accurate, it's at
least opening the door forconversation.
And that's what I love abouttoday is that mental health is
more normal, like therapy isnormal now, and when I was
growing up it was kind of a well, there's something wrong with
you if you have to go see atherapist or, you know, if there
was a big traumatic event, thenof course it was understandable
(29:48):
that, okay, of course you haveto go talk to somebody about
this, but you know, just, I'mfeeling anxious.
That wasn't something that youcould go talk about.
Emma Jean (30:00):
Imagine what your parents would have said if you
said, I'm really anxious and Ineed to go see a therapist.
I mean it just it was adifferent time, but you know
that stuff is really valuablenow and my gosh, I mean I, every
child.
You know, my husband and I havea blended family of five.
Every child in this family hasbeen sent to therapy for one
thing or another.
(30:20):
And it's us saying you know,just go talk to someone.
There's no reason not to.
What you learn in therapyyou'll never unlearn.
It's not like exercise, whereyou lose the gains, you keep
them and you get better andbetter and you build on it.
And it's a valuable resourcethat we just didn't use enough,
when you know when I was goingthrough this.
But that's also why I wanted towrite my book in a way that I
(30:44):
didn't just tell the story ofthe abuse and when the abuse
happened and how horrific thatis.
I know that part is it's juicyand it's interesting to people
from the outside, but it'sreally important to me through
this book that the people I'mreaching can see themselves in
it or can see someone they knowand love in it and can see
themselves in those early partsbefore the violence or the
(31:08):
verbal abuse began, becausethere are so many common threads
between victimized women andvictimized men.
There are a lot of littlethings, a lot of little seeds
planted that happen long beforewe endure the abuse.
Ingrid (31:29):
There are, and I think it's really great.
Even if you don't know somebodythat's going through it or you
aren't somebody that's goingthrough it, it at least gives
you a little bit more of anunderstanding and perhaps
compassion for those, and it'snot so black and white like I
would have left thatrelationship.
I don't understand why thatperson is putting up with it for
so long.
So I think that you did a goodjob about explaining how you get
(31:52):
pulled into these kinds ofrelationships and I really liked
our conversation going intothat further.
So we're going to end ourepisode today, but you're going
to be back next week with, like,what happens when you get out.
Yes, I'll be.
Emma Jean (32:07):
I'll be speaking today.
I spoke about the way into therelationship for me, and then,
next episode, I'll be speakingabout the way out for me.
Ingrid (32:14):
Okay, all right, so we'll be back next week.
I would like to say thank youagain to Emma Jean for joining
me today and thank you forlistening.
I have included the link toEmma Jean's one in three profile
.
Thank you for listening.
I have included the link toEmma Jean's one in three profile
in the show notes.
I will be back next week, asEmma Jean returns, to once again
discuss and read an excerptfrom her book.
When things collapse.
(32:34):
Until then, stay strong andwherever you are in your journey
, always remember you are notalone.
Find more information, registeras a guest or leave a review by
going to the websiteoneandthreepodcastcom.
That's the number one, i-n.
The number three podcastcom.
(32:54):
Follow One in Three onInstagram, facebook and Twitter
at One in Three Podcast.
To help me out, please rememberto rate, review and subscribe.
One in three is a 0.5 Pinoyproduction music written and
performed by Tim Crow.
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