March 19, 2025 • 32 mins
When Emma Jean's young daughter offered to "act really cute" to prevent her father's rage, something profound shifted. In this raw, emotional conversation, Emma Jean reads a pivotal passage from her book, "When Things Collapse," revealing the exact moment she realized her children weren't just witnessing abuse—they were absorbing it as training for their future.
This powerful discussion dismantles the myth that staying "for the kids" benefits children in abusive households. Emma Jean shares how her daughter, now 21, demonstrates remarkable strength in relationships precisely because she witnessed her mother's courage in walking away. "That's the thing in my life I am the most proud of," Emma Jean confesses, noting that children who see their parents respect themselves learn to demand respect in their own lives.
We tackle difficult truths: the façade of an "intact family" shatters the moment abuse begins; children perceive tension regardless of parents' attempts to hide it; and perhaps most importantly—a good father simply does not abuse his children's mother. For listeners struggling with these decisions, Emma Jean offers a clarifying question: "What would you tell your daughter to do in this situation?"
The conversation acknowledges the very real dangers of leaving, with practical advice about timing, safety planning, and the emotional reality that many victims attempt to leave multiple times before making a final break. Through it all runs a thread of hope—that when parents find the courage to walk away from abuse, they give their children an invaluable gift: a model of self-respect that becomes internalized and "sealed in their fate" in the most positive way possible.
Emma Jean’s 1in3 bio: https://www.1in3podcast.com/guests/emma-jean-rowin/
Link to “When Things Collapse”: https://a.co/d/8wTUZ1W
1 in 3 is intended for mature audiences. Episodes contain explicit content and may be triggering to some.
If you are in the United States and need help right now, call the national domestic violence hotline at 800-799-7233 or text the word “start” to 88788.
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Cover art by Laura Swift Dahlke
Music by Tim Crowe
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ingrid (00:00):
Emma Jean, welcome back.
I'm so glad to have you back onone and three.
Again, I'm glad to be back.
I'm excited for ourconversation.
Okay, so this is a.
This is a big one.
This is talking about how toget out of those relationships.
Emma Jean (00:14):
Yes.
So this for me, was the way out, and I'm going to begin in the
middle of chapter 18.
The name of the chapter is thesad chair, and at the beginning
of the chapter I kind of discusshow I discovered that I have a
sad chair, because I'm alwayssitting in the chair crying, and
my three-year-old comes to meand tells me Mommy, why are you
(00:35):
in your sad chair?
Is it because Daddy alwaysyells at you?
And so that was the firstrealization of this particular
day.
And then I'm going to startreading.
From when I pick my daughter up,I don't return home between the
birthday ceremony and schoolpickup.
Over the past few months I'veperfected the art of wandering
(00:55):
through Hobby Lobby andHomeGoods, sizing up the
merchandise and avoiding thedark cloud of my home.
Some of the employees even knowmy name now.
The circular pacing through thestores helps me meditate
through my anguish, much like mysad chair.
Hours later I return to pick upthe kids.
School pickup always drains thelife from me.
I hate making small talk withthese happily married mothers
(01:17):
still lighthearted enough tocare about their spring wreaths
and vegetable gardens.
I had that once, but it feelslike another lifetime ago.
I muddle through theconversations, pretending I can
relate, spending every last bitof energy I have to ensure my
kids belong in the schoolcommunity.
It's exhausting, but worth itto see the flashes of excitement
on their faces when we firstreunite.
(01:37):
Mommy, I had a wonderfulbirthday, ava tells me as she
skips across the school lawn.
I breathe her in through a longhug and relish the recharge it
gives me.
Cal squeezes my leg from behind, gifting me another jolt of
happy God.
I love my kids.
As we pull onto the highway Istudy Ava's expression in the
rearview mirror.
(01:58):
She looks genuinely happy nowand I hope maybe I misread her
earlier.
Can we have Pizza World forlunch?
Sure, baby, I say Pepperoni.
Let me call dad and see what hewants.
On the second pizza, alecanswers in a snarl when the hell
have you been?
My gut drops.
What do you mean?
I was at the birthday ceremonyand then I just wasted some time
(02:20):
at Hobby Lobby instead ofdriving all the way home for two
hours.
I didn't marry you so you couldspend all your time away from
home.
A good wife would be heretaking care of the house.
You don't work.
I tripped over a basket oflaundry that's been sitting in
our bedroom for three days.
You're worthless, dumb, fuckingbitch, fucking worthless.
He screams so loudly that myright ear feels like it's been
(02:42):
zapped by an electrical shock.
We are not on speakerphone, butthe kids can hear every word.
Panic travels through my veins.
I was just calling because Avawants pizza world for lunch and
I wondered what you wanted toeat.
My voice trembles and I knowAva picks up on it Fucking pizza
.
I have a hundred people's moneyon the line and you want to
talk to me about pizza?
(03:03):
Figure it out yourself.
You loser, you miserable pieceof shit.
You're so stupid.
He hangs up.
My hands shake on the steeringwheel as I round the corner to
our subdivision.
I would give anything to justdrive past to take my children,
buy them new wardrobes at Targetand sleep at my mother's house
with them, never to return tothis place again.
(03:23):
But my children need theirfather and they deserve a home
that's intact, intact.
That's what's always best forthem to be intact.
My kids can't have theirimmediate family obliterated
like mine was Mommy.
Ava's voice pierces the tensionthat stretches throughout the
car.
I have a great idea I'll goinside first and I'll act really
(03:43):
, really cute, and then dad willbe happy and he won't be mean
to you and he won't yell at you.
Her words hit me like a bomb.
My children are not unscathedby their father's terrorizing of
me not by a mile.
They are absorbing it like atraining video presented by
Thomas the Tank Engine on PBSand adapting to survive.
I am showing my children thatthis is normal family life and
(04:06):
one day this behavior from a manwill feel like home to my
daughter.
I can see it all in this onemoment, laid out in cinematic
montage the arrogant posture ofthe handsome, brooding classmate
who will one day shift Ava'sinterest from cats to boys.
The first venomous words hespits toward her that both
surprise and hurt her, yetsomehow stir a familiar feeling
(04:27):
inside, one that she won't mindliving with the hollow sound of
the lies he will tell.
She will tell me to cover, forhim to throw me off the trail of
the signs that are alreadyrecognizable to me from my own
life.
The stories she will spin toherself in order to cross the
bridge to marriage andmotherhood with him.
The disappointment on her faceas he storms through their home,
(04:49):
targeting her with all hisbrokenness, and the shuddering
of her shoulders as she criesalone in private, hiding her
sorrow from their children.
Will she have her own sad chair, like her mother?
Stay in your seat when we pullinto the garage, ava.
I say I want to tell yousomething.
Okay, mama, she repliescheerfully.
I unstrap Cal, climb over hisseat and hold him in my lap next
(05:13):
to Ava.
Look at me, ava.
I say needing to speak quicklybefore Alec knows we're home.
She looks at me, exaggeratingher focus by leaning forward and
touching her forehead to mine,so our eyes meet.
I smile.
Honey, this is important.
I want to tell you that the wayyour dad treats me is not okay.
The yelling and the mean names.
(05:34):
That's not how dads aresupposed to act towards moms.
She squints and crinkles hernose.
Sometimes people get angrythough Mama, like in our book
the Way I Feel, not like thisbaby.
People can get angry thoughmama, like in our book, the Way
I Feel, not like this baby.
People can get angry, but it'snot okay to act like dad.
Her eyebrows lower.
Does Jeffrey yell at grandmalike dad yells at you?
No, never Not like this.
(05:57):
My mother's new husband is agood man and a goddamn saint,
compared to Alec, I think.
What about Josh and Lila?
Does Josh do that to her.
No, honey, no, he does not.
Mommy needs to fix it and I'mgoing to fix it.
I need you to trust me and nomatter what I tell you is going
to happen next, okay, okay, mama.
(06:17):
She stretches her arms straightfor a hug.
I love you so much, mama.
I love you so much too,birthday girl, let's go in and
order this pizza that evening.
After being called a stupidbitch for the third time over
getting the toppings on thepizza wrong, I level an
ultimatum at Alec Either go tocounseling or I will call a
divorce attorney.
No, he says I'm not going tosome counselor and risk them
(06:40):
giving me some bogus diagnosisthat lands me on a government
list to put me in an internmentcamp.
I'm not going.
It's not going to happen.
When he refuses, I take him athis word and I tell him to leave
for the final time, and indoing so, I give my daughter the
best birthday gift.
A mother can give her daughtera backbone.
Ingrid (07:03):
So I read that and I didn't stop crying for like 10
pages after that.
I actually just texted a few ofmy friends who I have three
great friends were in this grouptext.
We actually will send videos toeach other once a week to
update each other and all of ushave been in abusive
(07:24):
relationships at varying stagesof relationships and I sent this
to them because you know, theyall have daughters and I was
just saying I am so proud to bestanding next to these amazing
moms who chose their path toleave their abusers and they
(07:44):
gave their daughters a backboneand I.
That was so freaking incredibleand I, like I said I, I
actually I sent that text to.
I don't I that picture to.
I think there's like fourdifferent groups of friends that
I sent that to because it wasamazing and so Thank you.
(08:06):
Yeah, I'm tearing up again Iknew I wanted it.
I folded the page over becauseI was like, well, she's not
going to read this.
I want to make sure.
Emma Jean (08:17):
It's a tough chapter for me to read.
It's my favorite chapter.
I will tell you that.
And I will tell you this aboutmyself.
I've already indicated that Ikind of come from a background
where I have low self-esteem andI don't give myself credit for
a lot of things, but that one.
I will give myself credit forwalking out and teaching that
immediate lesson to her.
(08:37):
Maybe at the time I didn'tunderstand the gravity of it,
but I will tell you that nowthat my daughter is 21, and she
has been through dating andseveral relationships, I have
seen her be the opposite of whoI was at her age and it came so
naturally to her that I almosthad to at times rein her in and
(08:58):
say you have to be nice tosomeone, you have to, you can be
discerning, but we have to, youknow, we have to be reasonable.
Because it really infuseditself in her.
She trusted me, she trusted mywords, she believed me and she
got on my side that day as faras the side of this isn't what
(09:22):
we put up with.
I never had to say it to heragain, I never had to teach her
those lessons as she was goingthrough dating.
She is just, she is armed insteel.
I mean, she is a strong, stronggirl and I am.
That's the thing in my life.
I am the most proud of.
Ingrid (09:40):
And I have a friend who's the same way, that she
will look at her daughter andjust see, even though her
daughter is still quite young,see this strength that's just
emitting out of her.
And you know, kids model aftertheir parents.
Whether you like, the good, thebad, the ugly.
And when you see especially awoman coming out of an abusive
(10:04):
relationship and having adaughter, to see your daughter
have the strength, you knowthat's because of you.
You know, like you, she knowswhat not to put up with.
And I have another friend who'sconcerned because she's sharing
custody of her two children withher abuser and his home is a
(10:31):
very, very bad environment.
And her concern is you know, mydaughter is exposed to this.
He's remarried and his wife isnot a good person either, and so
her concern is obviously, likeher daughter's there 50% of the
time.
So how am I supposed to makesure that my daughter is okay?
(10:52):
And my reply to her was she hasyou.
You know you left it, you'renot in the relationship.
Putting up.
I said putting up with it too,it's not, it's hard to.
I don't know what other, Idon't know, I don't either.
I said putting up with it too,it's hard to.
Emma Jean (11:05):
I don't know what other words to use for that.
I don't either.
I don't either.
Ingrid (11:08):
But living that.
You're not doing that anymore.
You've removed yourself fromthat situation and you are,
whether you like it or not.
The mom and the dad are thewhen they're young.
They're the two highest rolemodels in these children's lives
and even if one of them is badand the other one is not bad or
whatever, they still look at thetwo of you.
So she's still.
(11:28):
You know, she's holding her momin high regard and she's going
to see she may not recognize itnow, but she's going to see like
that, my mom is strong and youknow I will model myself after
that.
Emma Jean (11:42):
Yeah, her mom has drawn a line in the sand and it
will be.
I think it would be harder forher to her daughter to step over
that, having seen that modeledthan you know.
I just think.
I just think what we see ourmothers do is what gets
programmed into our autopilot,and that's not to say that we
(12:02):
can't break free from that,because I obviously, you know,
did break that cycle.
Um, not that my father wasn'tabusive, but again, it wasn't a
healthy marriage and my motherwasn't being treated the best
that she could have been treated.
Um, you know, it's funnybecause my, my parents divorced
um, after I started dating Alecand my mom, my father actually
(12:28):
left my mother and through thatI did get to see my mom be the
stronger version of herself.
She became independent.
She was independent financially, she lived on her own, she had
healthy relationships after thatand I got to see that and it
did help me, it helps me modelhow I am in my marriage now.
(12:50):
so I did get the benefit of that.
I I think and this is myopinion personally, I think that
I would have done better if myparents had divorced when I was
younger, and I know that parentsthen believed they were doing
the right thing to stay for thechildren.
I don't believe that.
I really think you have tomodel healthy relationships.
(13:12):
So you know, I mean, my motherwas a feminist and she preached
feminist values in my home, buther words, her words didn't
reach me.
It was her actions and I thinkyour friend will see that as her
daughter grows up, it's thoseactions that will reach her
daughter.
Ingrid (13:30):
I think so too, and I can't remember what I texted
back to her but I was like, ooh,that was good, it's uh, yeah,
it's very important.
My mom, uh, I didn't see her alot growing up.
She worked night shift and youknow there wasn't a lot of
interaction with her.
But, same after my parentsdivorced, I saw a woman who
(13:58):
doesn't not that she doesn'tneed a man and you know whatever
but like she's able to functionon her own.
And same thing function on herown.
And same thing Ran a house,worked.
I was in college, my sister wasstill in high school and she's
taking care of my sister andsupporting both of us and it
does.
It's a big, a big, has a bigimpact on the kids and I think
(14:23):
that a lot of times that is aturning point for people who are
in domestic violentrelationships and marriages or
not marriages.
But when there are childreninvolved, like if you can't
leave for yourself, eventuallyyou're going to look at your
children and say I can't havethem in this anymore.
Emma Jean (14:43):
Yes, and that that was the case for me.
I did not have the self-loveand the self-esteem to do it for
myself.
I probably could have enduredso much more and I can't even
explain to you how I absorbthese things, but I think I
thought of myself as a strongperson for staying and enduring
that, oh, I can do this and I'lldo this for the love of my
family, but I would not let mychildren put up with it and in
(15:07):
that sense my children became myself-esteem because I cared way
too much for them and I thoughtway too much of them to let
them simmer in that environmentany longer.
And then, after I got out, Ilearned to build my own
self-esteem back.
Sometimes that's the way it hasto go right.
Sometimes you don't just learnto love yourself and you're not
(15:29):
a phoenix from the flames foryourself.
Sometimes it's for your kids.
And I think if there's anythingthat mothers can take away from
my book or this conversation, Iwould want it to be that that if
you can't do it for yourselfand you've got all kinds of
confusing programming in yourhead telling you to stay, do it
for your children, because to me, seeing it from that
(15:53):
perspective made it very clear.
I was confused when I thoughtabout what made me a good wife
whether to stay and try andrescue him or not but when I
looked at my children or when Ithought to myself sometimes I'll
say this to friends in adifficult situation what would
you say to your daughter if shewas in this situation?
Would she be staying five years?
(16:13):
Would she be staying threeyears?
Would she be putting up withthis?
Or would you and you know theysay I would.
I would tell her to get out?
I would tell her to get out anddo that for yourself.
Ingrid (16:23):
Exactly Because the longer you stay in it, your,
your daughters are learning thisis the kind of relationship
that is okay.
It's okay to be treated thisway.
Your sons are learning this isokay to treat another human
being this way.
And you know I I'm in theprocess of reading why does he
(16:45):
Do that?
By Lundy Bancroft, and I don'tknow if you've read that before.
Emma Jean (16:51):
I have seen the cover .
Someone else shared it recently, I think, but no, I've never
read it.
Ingrid (16:55):
I've seen it quite a bit .
A lot of people have beenposting that it's a great book.
I was reluctant to read itbecause I kind of was like, well
, I know why he does it.
And then I also didn't.
I wasn't sure if it was a veryanti-man kind of a book, which
it's not.
The author is a man and he hadsupport groups for abusive men,
(17:20):
so he was studying them whiletrying to rehabilitate them Okay
.
And a lot of the abusers wouldsay, like you know, the kids
should be with me because theybelong together.
Look at what she's doing.
She's ruining our family.
We were a cohesive familybefore.
But a good point that the authormakes is that once the abuser
(17:44):
started abusing that intactfamily, that ideal is gone.
They ruined it.
It's already gone.
That's right.
So by staying in therelationship you're not keeping
an intact family.
That family's gone.
And he's already robbed thechildren of what a father is
supposed to be.
He's already not.
That's right.
That's a really good point.
(18:04):
It really is, and that's howpeople should think of it
Exactly.
And then another thing is, whenit comes into custody, a lot of
women think well, you know, Idon't want to take my children
away from their father.
He's good to them.
He's, you know, he's only meanto me.
He's not mean to them.
He's a good father.
And another point he makes isyou know, a good father does not
(18:25):
abuse the mother of hischildren.
It's true.
Emma Jean (18:30):
It's true, you don't.
If once you are abusive, you'reno longer, you don't fall in
the category of a healthynuclear family, right?
My ex husband still sends me Imean, we've been apart since
2010.
And I still, 15 years later,get emails, nasty grams, from
him.
And one of the ones I got wasaround the time that Barbie, the
(18:54):
Barbie movie came out and thesubject line was understanding
Barbie.
And then it said somethingalong the lines of nuclear
families generate love.
The idea that these abusivepartners consider themselves to
be in the category of a nuclearfamily.
You're not in a nuclear familyanymore.
Or them saying, on the samenote, saying to women we're
(19:16):
soulmates.
You don't qualify as a soulmateIf you're an abusive man, you
don't get to have a soulmate.
You aren't anyone's soulmate,you're disqualified, that's that
.
And so you don't get to have asoulmate.
You aren't anyone's soulmate,you're disqualified, that's that
.
And so you don't get to speakin those terms to save yourself
or to buy yourself more time.
Ingrid (19:35):
Right, and there is that belief still.
You know, when I got divorced,I have children.
I have children and in my stateyou have to take a co-parenting
class.
Regardless of the reason forthe divorce an amicable divorce
you still have to take aco-parenting class.
And in my co-parenting classthe instructor was like children
(20:00):
who do best, he's like.
I want you to rank it onethrough four.
So children in a loving familywith the parents who are married
, children who are in a lovingfamily and the parents don't get
along, or no, no, no, I'm sorry, in a non-loving family, but
the parents are still married,situation where they're still
(20:23):
like everyone's able to getalong well, or just there's, you
know, not being able toco-parent and divorce.
So which?
How do you rank them?
So I was like well, obviously,divorced and not getting along,
that's the worst.
Best is married, getting along.
Then I thought, well, the nextwould probably be divorced and
(20:49):
getting along.
And then third would be marriedand not getting along, and he's
like no, he's like, divorcedare the last two, whether you
get along or not, he's like.
So your children are alreadybeing placed at a lower level to
be able to succeededucation-wise, socially.
They're already, you arealready doing them a disservice
(21:09):
by getting divorced.
Emma Jean (21:11):
Wow.
Ingrid (21:12):
And this was over Zoom, which I'm glad because I
probably would have saidsomething if it was in person.
Emma Jean (21:17):
Sure yeah.
Ingrid (21:18):
But looking around the room or the, you know, the Zoom
room, I'm like you don't knowanybody's backstory and by then
I was aware of friends who hadgotten divorced from abusive
relationships.
And I'm like you don't, what ifthey were in here hearing this?
And then they think, oh my gosh, you know, I guess I'll
(21:39):
continue to endure, maybe Iwon't get divorced after all.
Emma Jean (21:42):
That's right.
That's right, and I think thathappens a lot.
I think there are a lot ofdifferent mindsets, for For some
people it's religion, you know,and that's another thing for me
.
I grew up Catholic, right, andI had asked my mother growing up
, like, why don't you getdivorced?
You're not happy, he's nothappy.
And her answer was I amCatholic and I'm not saying that
, that I'm not here to tell youthat, that that can't be a
(22:05):
correct mindset for someone else.
But I think what I'm saying isthere are a lot of different
mindsets that will tell you toendure something that maybe is
not healthy for you or yourchildren, and we have to be
discerning enough to not justtake those as black and white
all the time.
We have to look into ourspecific home.
(22:28):
I am sure that if you look atstatistics it's very easy to say
, oh, divorce is the hardest onthe children.
But let's look at all thenuances of you know of what's
going on in those homes and whatis really affecting those kids.
I don't think it's just divorcealone that's causing their
suffering.
Ingrid (22:49):
Not at all.
I have a friend whose sonturned and looked at her when he
was, I think, four years oldand said my daddy is really mean
.
And you know she was like Ineed to leave this relationship,
I can't stay here.
She did stay.
She still tried to.
You know how long can I endurethis?
But she did finally getdivorced.
Emma Jean (23:10):
But yeah, it's, those children are being affected
think that I don't know anysituation, any marriage, and
especially any abusive marriage,that's all just exactly the
same.
Or any partnership, that's allexactly the same.
(23:30):
But you and I can have found alot of common ground in my book
and I have heard from so manywomen who have said oh my gosh,
I feel like you're speaking tome and about me.
There are a lot of reallyconsistent patterns in what we
go through, and one of those isour children telling us that
they see the problems in ourmarriage.
Ingrid (23:54):
And they do.
And as much as you can, be apositive role model and show
strength for your children, bybeing out of the relationship,
you're showing them the exactsame thing by staying in or not
the exact, not a powerful rolemodel but you're still being a
role model to them by staying inthe relationship and that's not
a good thing.
(24:14):
It's not a good role model.
Emma Jean (24:15):
A good thing.
It's not a good role model?
No, it's not, Absolutely it'snot.
It's.
It shows a lot of strength towalk away, um, when it's really
necessary.
And I also think there arethose people who say, well, um,
my kids don't.
My kids don't hear us fight, mykids don't know the dynamics.
Your kids feel a lot of theenergy in your home and I am
(24:36):
sure that my kids heard a lot.
Well, in my case, it washappening right in front of them
and that was something Icouldn't control.
But I know that even whenpeople are trying to speak in
hushed tones, I could hear myparents fighting at night.
I knew what was going on.
I knew there was tension in theroom when they were being
silent.
Ingrid (24:53):
Yeah, I mean, my kids will look at me and I could have
like a stressful day at workand not say anything.
They'll come home from schooland they're like mom, what's
wrong?
Yes, nothing.
What are you talking about?
I'm fine, you know let's, we'regoing to go do this or whatever
.
I'm like no, something's wrong,and you know they're.
They're just picking up on my,my vibe, I guess you know and
they're very intuitive.
Emma Jean (25:15):
But you know what that's something that's.
Another common thread that Ihear a lot from mothers who have
been in abusive situations isthat their kids are really
checking their pulse a lot.
My kids did that and still dothat, feel very responsible for
my happiness because they saw mego through unhappiness.
(25:40):
We almost have this unhealthycodependency that I have to push
away and say that's not yourjob to worry about me and I can
have a bad day like anybody elseand the world isn't going to
crumble.
But I think we both have asense about each other.
You've been through too muchand I think they feel the same
back towards me and that's areally common thread with women
(26:01):
like us, because our childrenhave seen us be put through a
lot of sadness and they don'twant to.
They don't want to see it.
They recognize it and theydon't want to see even the
smallest signs of that.
Ingrid (26:11):
Which is so makes it so much more important to get out,
if you can, because then at somepoint the kids are going to
think well, I should, you know,should I have protected mommy,
or should I?
Did I say something to make dadmad?
You know, I'm the one whodropped the plate and made dad
mad and then now he's taking itout on mom, or you know whatever
.
Emma Jean (26:32):
Yeah, they're going to absorb it one way or another
or another.
But you're right, the worst waythat they could absorb it is to
perceive it as their fault.
And if you think about thatpassage that I read, where Ava
is saying to me in the car oh,I'll go in, I'll go in and I'll
act cute and I'll make him happy, she's taking responsibility
for how I'm going to be treated,and how dangerous was that?
(26:56):
I mean, I didn't even havenobody had to spell that out for
me to hear her say those things.
I just thought this is sick andtwisted, that she's going to
try and go in there and writethis for me and she's going to
do it by being cute.
It was almost like enabling thebehavior.
It's just, oh, that was justsuch a tangled little web of
(27:18):
what she was showing me that youknow that she was being
programmed into.
I think, if I think, if wedon't show the example of
walking away, we seal their fatein one direction, and I think
if we do show the example ofwalking away, we seal their fate
in the other.
It feels to me like my childrenjust get it, like it's a gift I
(27:38):
gave them and I can't ungive itand they're, they've absorbed
it, and that's who they are nowin their bones.
Ingrid (27:45):
Okay.
So more about getting out.
It's so I have mentioned thisin previous episodes that that
is one of the most dangeroustimes in a person's life is when
they choose to leave theirabuser and you know, you can
spit out statistics and you cansay contact these agencies,
(28:06):
they'll protect you, get arestraining order, you can say
all these different things thatare out there to help protect
you, but it doesn't necessarilyprotect people, and I think that
it's really important tounderstand your gut and you know
your abuser.
And if that's an individualthat you think that I can set
(28:26):
down the ground rules of, likeyou said, don't be home when I'm
moving out and have that andyou know that he's going to
follow it that's fantastic.
But other people this issomething that you need to don't
even let them know that youplan on leaving at all, Just
when they're at work, pack upand when they come home one day
(28:47):
you're going to be gone.
So, yes, that's somethingthat's really important to
consider when people do leave.
Emma Jean (28:54):
Definitely, and, you know, let a loved one know that
you're doing it and ask for thatkind of support to make sure
that you know you're safe andthat they know I'm doing this
this day.
But you're right, you may haveto um, you may have to get used
to the idea of leaving somethings behind as well.
I didn't take everything withme when I went.
I didn't have um, I moved outpretty quickly.
(29:19):
I had one day and there were alot of things that I left in the
unfinished portion of thebasement that maybe meant
something to me but that Ididn't take with me and I got
over it.
I know, I know I spoke to onewoman the other day who said I
was outside with playing with mychild and my partner was taking
a nap and I said to myself Idon't want to be, I don't want
(29:39):
to go back in that house, Idon't want to do this anymore.
And she walked inside andgrabbed her children's, her load
of laundry that was in thedryer and her children's clothes
and put them in a bag and leftand didn't come back and for her
that was the right way out,right, she didn't have to battle
with anybody, she didn't haveto ask permission or be held.
You know, held against her,will she didn't have to ask
permission or be held.
You know, held against her,will she?
(30:00):
Just for her.
I just need these clothes, Ijust and that's, and that's
enough for me because you canreplace anything else you can't
replace your safety Absolutelyand when the opportunity strikes
, take it.
Ingrid (30:10):
I did an episode on Tina Turner and she had just gotten
beaten up by Ike and she ranacross a highway.
He was taking a nap.
She ran out of the hotel, ranacross a highway into another
hotel, bloody and a mess.
But that was the opportunitythat she had and she took it and
she didn't go back, which alsodon't feel bad if you go back.
(30:31):
It takes an average of seventimes for someone to officially
leave their abuser.
Emma Jean (30:39):
Yeah, I think for me it was three or four, and I mean
I'm talking about him having aU-Haul and moving out and then
me calling him back home.
And you know, sometimes you'rejust, you're just not ready.
But once you're ready and I'veheard a lot of women say this
once you're ready, that switchflips and you can't, you can't,
you can't go back.
I couldn't stand to be in hispresence after that anymore.
Ingrid (31:03):
Yeah, once you hit I think there's there's a final
straw for everyone, and once youget there, you know that's it,
that's it and I'm not going backand it's.
It's a really great feelingactually, uh, to finally get to
that point.
Emma Jean (31:18):
Okay.
Ingrid (31:20):
So is there anything else you want to talk about on
this section?
Okay, so you're going to comeback next week one more time and
talk about what happens onceyou're out and all the work that
goes into it.
Emma Jean (31:34):
I look forward to it.
Ingrid (31:38):
Okay, we'll see you then .
Emma Jean, welcome back.
I'm so glad to have you back onone and three.
Again, I'm glad to be back.
I'm excited for ourconversation.
Okay, so this is a.
This is a big one.
This is talking about how toget out of those relationships.
Emma Jean (00:14):
Yes.
So this for me, was the way out, and I'm going to begin in the
middle of chapter 18.
The name of the chapter is thesad chair, and at the beginning
of the chapter I kind of discusshow I discovered that I have a
sad chair, because I'm alwayssitting in the chair crying, and
my three-year-old comes to meand tells me Mommy, why are you
(00:35):
in your sad chair?
Is it because Daddy alwaysyells at you?
And so that was the firstrealization of this particular
day.
And then I'm going to startreading.
From when I pick my daughter up,I don't return home between the
birthday ceremony and schoolpickup.
Over the past few months I'veperfected the art of wandering
(00:55):
through Hobby Lobby andHomeGoods, sizing up the
merchandise and avoiding thedark cloud of my home.
Some of the employees even knowmy name now.
The circular pacing through thestores helps me meditate
through my anguish, much like mysad chair.
Hours later I return to pick upthe kids.
School pickup always drains thelife from me.
I hate making small talk withthese happily married mothers
(01:17):
still lighthearted enough tocare about their spring wreaths
and vegetable gardens.
I had that once, but it feelslike another lifetime ago.
I muddle through theconversations, pretending I can
relate, spending every last bitof energy I have to ensure my
kids belong in the schoolcommunity.
It's exhausting, but worth itto see the flashes of excitement
on their faces when we firstreunite.
(01:37):
Mommy, I had a wonderfulbirthday, ava tells me as she
skips across the school lawn.
I breathe her in through a longhug and relish the recharge it
gives me.
Cal squeezes my leg from behind, gifting me another jolt of
happy God.
I love my kids.
As we pull onto the highway Istudy Ava's expression in the
rearview mirror.
(01:58):
She looks genuinely happy nowand I hope maybe I misread her
earlier.
Can we have Pizza World forlunch?
Sure, baby, I say Pepperoni.
Let me call dad and see what hewants.
On the second pizza, alecanswers in a snarl when the hell
have you been?
My gut drops.
What do you mean?
I was at the birthday ceremonyand then I just wasted some time
(02:20):
at Hobby Lobby instead ofdriving all the way home for two
hours.
I didn't marry you so you couldspend all your time away from
home.
A good wife would be heretaking care of the house.
You don't work.
I tripped over a basket oflaundry that's been sitting in
our bedroom for three days.
You're worthless, dumb, fuckingbitch, fucking worthless.
He screams so loudly that myright ear feels like it's been
(02:42):
zapped by an electrical shock.
We are not on speakerphone, butthe kids can hear every word.
Panic travels through my veins.
I was just calling because Avawants pizza world for lunch and
I wondered what you wanted toeat.
My voice trembles and I knowAva picks up on it Fucking pizza
.
I have a hundred people's moneyon the line and you want to
talk to me about pizza?
(03:03):
Figure it out yourself.
You loser, you miserable pieceof shit.
You're so stupid.
He hangs up.
My hands shake on the steeringwheel as I round the corner to
our subdivision.
I would give anything to justdrive past to take my children,
buy them new wardrobes at Targetand sleep at my mother's house
with them, never to return tothis place again.
(03:23):
But my children need theirfather and they deserve a home
that's intact, intact.
That's what's always best forthem to be intact.
My kids can't have theirimmediate family obliterated
like mine was Mommy.
Ava's voice pierces the tensionthat stretches throughout the
car.
I have a great idea I'll goinside first and I'll act really
(03:43):
, really cute, and then dad willbe happy and he won't be mean
to you and he won't yell at you.
Her words hit me like a bomb.
My children are not unscathedby their father's terrorizing of
me not by a mile.
They are absorbing it like atraining video presented by
Thomas the Tank Engine on PBSand adapting to survive.
I am showing my children thatthis is normal family life and
(04:06):
one day this behavior from a manwill feel like home to my
daughter.
I can see it all in this onemoment, laid out in cinematic
montage the arrogant posture ofthe handsome, brooding classmate
who will one day shift Ava'sinterest from cats to boys.
The first venomous words hespits toward her that both
surprise and hurt her, yetsomehow stir a familiar feeling
(04:27):
inside, one that she won't mindliving with the hollow sound of
the lies he will tell.
She will tell me to cover, forhim to throw me off the trail of
the signs that are alreadyrecognizable to me from my own
life.
The stories she will spin toherself in order to cross the
bridge to marriage andmotherhood with him.
The disappointment on her faceas he storms through their home,
(04:49):
targeting her with all hisbrokenness, and the shuddering
of her shoulders as she criesalone in private, hiding her
sorrow from their children.
Will she have her own sad chair, like her mother?
Stay in your seat when we pullinto the garage, ava.
I say I want to tell yousomething.
Okay, mama, she repliescheerfully.
I unstrap Cal, climb over hisseat and hold him in my lap next
(05:13):
to Ava.
Look at me, ava.
I say needing to speak quicklybefore Alec knows we're home.
She looks at me, exaggeratingher focus by leaning forward and
touching her forehead to mine,so our eyes meet.
I smile.
Honey, this is important.
I want to tell you that the wayyour dad treats me is not okay.
The yelling and the mean names.
(05:34):
That's not how dads aresupposed to act towards moms.
She squints and crinkles hernose.
Sometimes people get angrythough Mama, like in our book
the Way I Feel, not like thisbaby.
People can get angry thoughmama, like in our book, the Way
I Feel, not like this baby.
People can get angry, but it'snot okay to act like dad.
Her eyebrows lower.
Does Jeffrey yell at grandmalike dad yells at you?
No, never Not like this.
(05:57):
My mother's new husband is agood man and a goddamn saint,
compared to Alec, I think.
What about Josh and Lila?
Does Josh do that to her.
No, honey, no, he does not.
Mommy needs to fix it and I'mgoing to fix it.
I need you to trust me and nomatter what I tell you is going
to happen next, okay, okay, mama.
(06:17):
She stretches her arms straightfor a hug.
I love you so much, mama.
I love you so much too,birthday girl, let's go in and
order this pizza that evening.
After being called a stupidbitch for the third time over
getting the toppings on thepizza wrong, I level an
ultimatum at Alec Either go tocounseling or I will call a
divorce attorney.
No, he says I'm not going tosome counselor and risk them
(06:40):
giving me some bogus diagnosisthat lands me on a government
list to put me in an internmentcamp.
I'm not going.
It's not going to happen.
When he refuses, I take him athis word and I tell him to leave
for the final time, and indoing so, I give my daughter the
best birthday gift.
A mother can give her daughtera backbone.
Ingrid (07:03):
So I read that and I didn't stop crying for like 10
pages after that.
I actually just texted a few ofmy friends who I have three
great friends were in this grouptext.
We actually will send videos toeach other once a week to
update each other and all of ushave been in abusive
(07:24):
relationships at varying stagesof relationships and I sent this
to them because you know, theyall have daughters and I was
just saying I am so proud to bestanding next to these amazing
moms who chose their path toleave their abusers and they
(07:44):
gave their daughters a backboneand I.
That was so freaking incredibleand I, like I said I, I
actually I sent that text to.
I don't I that picture to.
I think there's like fourdifferent groups of friends that
I sent that to because it wasamazing and so Thank you.
(08:06):
Yeah, I'm tearing up again Iknew I wanted it.
I folded the page over becauseI was like, well, she's not
going to read this.
I want to make sure.
Emma Jean (08:17):
It's a tough chapter for me to read.
It's my favorite chapter.
I will tell you that.
And I will tell you this aboutmyself.
I've already indicated that Ikind of come from a background
where I have low self-esteem andI don't give myself credit for
a lot of things, but that one.
I will give myself credit forwalking out and teaching that
immediate lesson to her.
(08:37):
Maybe at the time I didn'tunderstand the gravity of it,
but I will tell you that nowthat my daughter is 21, and she
has been through dating andseveral relationships, I have
seen her be the opposite of whoI was at her age and it came so
naturally to her that I almosthad to at times rein her in and
(08:58):
say you have to be nice tosomeone, you have to, you can be
discerning, but we have to, youknow, we have to be reasonable.
Because it really infuseditself in her.
She trusted me, she trusted mywords, she believed me and she
got on my side that day as faras the side of this isn't what
(09:22):
we put up with.
I never had to say it to heragain, I never had to teach her
those lessons as she was goingthrough dating.
She is just, she is armed insteel.
I mean, she is a strong, stronggirl and I am.
That's the thing in my life.
I am the most proud of.
Ingrid (09:40):
And I have a friend who's the same way, that she
will look at her daughter andjust see, even though her
daughter is still quite young,see this strength that's just
emitting out of her.
And you know, kids model aftertheir parents.
Whether you like, the good, thebad, the ugly.
And when you see especially awoman coming out of an abusive
(10:04):
relationship and having adaughter, to see your daughter
have the strength, you knowthat's because of you.
You know, like you, she knowswhat not to put up with.
And I have another friend who'sconcerned because she's sharing
custody of her two children withher abuser and his home is a
(10:31):
very, very bad environment.
And her concern is you know, mydaughter is exposed to this.
He's remarried and his wife isnot a good person either, and so
her concern is obviously, likeher daughter's there 50% of the
time.
So how am I supposed to makesure that my daughter is okay?
(10:52):
And my reply to her was she hasyou.
You know you left it, you'renot in the relationship.
Putting up.
I said putting up with it too,it's not, it's hard to.
I don't know what other, Idon't know, I don't either.
I said putting up with it too,it's hard to.
Emma Jean (11:05):
I don't know what other words to use for that.
I don't either.
I don't either.
Ingrid (11:08):
But living that.
You're not doing that anymore.
You've removed yourself fromthat situation and you are,
whether you like it or not.
The mom and the dad are thewhen they're young.
They're the two highest rolemodels in these children's lives
and even if one of them is badand the other one is not bad or
whatever, they still look at thetwo of you.
So she's still.
(11:28):
You know, she's holding her momin high regard and she's going
to see she may not recognize itnow, but she's going to see like
that, my mom is strong and youknow I will model myself after
that.
Emma Jean (11:42):
Yeah, her mom has drawn a line in the sand and it
will be.
I think it would be harder forher to her daughter to step over
that, having seen that modeledthan you know.
I just think.
I just think what we see ourmothers do is what gets
programmed into our autopilot,and that's not to say that we
(12:02):
can't break free from that,because I obviously, you know,
did break that cycle.
Um, not that my father wasn'tabusive, but again, it wasn't a
healthy marriage and my motherwasn't being treated the best
that she could have been treated.
Um, you know, it's funnybecause my, my parents divorced
um, after I started dating Alecand my mom, my father actually
(12:28):
left my mother and through thatI did get to see my mom be the
stronger version of herself.
She became independent.
She was independent financially, she lived on her own, she had
healthy relationships after thatand I got to see that and it
did help me, it helps me modelhow I am in my marriage now.
(12:50):
so I did get the benefit of that.
I I think and this is myopinion personally, I think that
I would have done better if myparents had divorced when I was
younger, and I know that parentsthen believed they were doing
the right thing to stay for thechildren.
I don't believe that.
I really think you have tomodel healthy relationships.
(13:12):
So you know, I mean, my motherwas a feminist and she preached
feminist values in my home, buther words, her words didn't
reach me.
It was her actions and I thinkyour friend will see that as her
daughter grows up, it's thoseactions that will reach her
daughter.
Ingrid (13:30):
I think so too, and I can't remember what I texted
back to her but I was like, ooh,that was good, it's uh, yeah,
it's very important.
My mom, uh, I didn't see her alot growing up.
She worked night shift and youknow there wasn't a lot of
interaction with her.
But, same after my parentsdivorced, I saw a woman who
(13:58):
doesn't not that she doesn'tneed a man and you know whatever
but like she's able to functionon her own.
And same thing function on herown.
And same thing Ran a house,worked.
I was in college, my sister wasstill in high school and she's
taking care of my sister andsupporting both of us and it
does.
It's a big, a big, has a bigimpact on the kids and I think
(14:23):
that a lot of times that is aturning point for people who are
in domestic violentrelationships and marriages or
not marriages.
But when there are childreninvolved, like if you can't
leave for yourself, eventuallyyou're going to look at your
children and say I can't havethem in this anymore.
Emma Jean (14:43):
Yes, and that that was the case for me.
I did not have the self-loveand the self-esteem to do it for
myself.
I probably could have enduredso much more and I can't even
explain to you how I absorbthese things, but I think I
thought of myself as a strongperson for staying and enduring
that, oh, I can do this and I'lldo this for the love of my
family, but I would not let mychildren put up with it and in
(15:07):
that sense my children became myself-esteem because I cared way
too much for them and I thoughtway too much of them to let
them simmer in that environmentany longer.
And then, after I got out, Ilearned to build my own
self-esteem back.
Sometimes that's the way it hasto go right.
Sometimes you don't just learnto love yourself and you're not
(15:29):
a phoenix from the flames foryourself.
Sometimes it's for your kids.
And I think if there's anythingthat mothers can take away from
my book or this conversation, Iwould want it to be that that if
you can't do it for yourselfand you've got all kinds of
confusing programming in yourhead telling you to stay, do it
for your children, because to me, seeing it from that
(15:53):
perspective made it very clear.
I was confused when I thoughtabout what made me a good wife
whether to stay and try andrescue him or not but when I
looked at my children or when Ithought to myself sometimes I'll
say this to friends in adifficult situation what would
you say to your daughter if shewas in this situation?
Would she be staying five years?
(16:13):
Would she be staying threeyears?
Would she be putting up withthis?
Or would you and you know theysay I would.
I would tell her to get out?
I would tell her to get out anddo that for yourself.
Ingrid (16:23):
Exactly Because the longer you stay in it, your,
your daughters are learning thisis the kind of relationship
that is okay.
It's okay to be treated thisway.
Your sons are learning this isokay to treat another human
being this way.
And you know I I'm in theprocess of reading why does he
(16:45):
Do that?
By Lundy Bancroft, and I don'tknow if you've read that before.
Emma Jean (16:51):
I have seen the cover .
Someone else shared it recently, I think, but no, I've never
read it.
Ingrid (16:55):
I've seen it quite a bit .
A lot of people have beenposting that it's a great book.
I was reluctant to read itbecause I kind of was like, well
, I know why he does it.
And then I also didn't.
I wasn't sure if it was a veryanti-man kind of a book, which
it's not.
The author is a man and he hadsupport groups for abusive men,
(17:20):
so he was studying them whiletrying to rehabilitate them Okay
.
And a lot of the abusers wouldsay, like you know, the kids
should be with me because theybelong together.
Look at what she's doing.
She's ruining our family.
We were a cohesive familybefore.
But a good point that the authormakes is that once the abuser
(17:44):
started abusing that intactfamily, that ideal is gone.
They ruined it.
It's already gone.
That's right.
So by staying in therelationship you're not keeping
an intact family.
That family's gone.
And he's already robbed thechildren of what a father is
supposed to be.
He's already not.
That's right.
That's a really good point.
(18:04):
It really is, and that's howpeople should think of it
Exactly.
And then another thing is, whenit comes into custody, a lot of
women think well, you know, Idon't want to take my children
away from their father.
He's good to them.
He's, you know, he's only meanto me.
He's not mean to them.
He's a good father.
And another point he makes isyou know, a good father does not
(18:25):
abuse the mother of hischildren.
It's true.
Emma Jean (18:30):
It's true, you don't.
If once you are abusive, you'reno longer, you don't fall in
the category of a healthynuclear family, right?
My ex husband still sends me Imean, we've been apart since
2010.
And I still, 15 years later,get emails, nasty grams, from
him.
And one of the ones I got wasaround the time that Barbie, the
(18:54):
Barbie movie came out and thesubject line was understanding
Barbie.
And then it said somethingalong the lines of nuclear
families generate love.
The idea that these abusivepartners consider themselves to
be in the category of a nuclearfamily.
You're not in a nuclear familyanymore.
Or them saying, on the samenote, saying to women we're
(19:16):
soulmates.
You don't qualify as a soulmateIf you're an abusive man, you
don't get to have a soulmate.
You aren't anyone's soulmate,you're disqualified, that's that
.
And so you don't get to have asoulmate.
You aren't anyone's soulmate,you're disqualified, that's that
.
And so you don't get to speakin those terms to save yourself
or to buy yourself more time.
Ingrid (19:35):
Right, and there is that belief still.
You know, when I got divorced,I have children.
I have children and in my stateyou have to take a co-parenting
class.
Regardless of the reason forthe divorce an amicable divorce
you still have to take aco-parenting class.
And in my co-parenting classthe instructor was like children
(20:00):
who do best, he's like.
I want you to rank it onethrough four.
So children in a loving familywith the parents who are married
, children who are in a lovingfamily and the parents don't get
along, or no, no, no, I'm sorry, in a non-loving family, but
the parents are still married,situation where they're still
(20:23):
like everyone's able to getalong well, or just there's, you
know, not being able toco-parent and divorce.
So which?
How do you rank them?
So I was like well, obviously,divorced and not getting along,
that's the worst.
Best is married, getting along.
Then I thought, well, the nextwould probably be divorced and
(20:49):
getting along.
And then third would be marriedand not getting along, and he's
like no, he's like, divorcedare the last two, whether you
get along or not, he's like.
So your children are alreadybeing placed at a lower level to
be able to succeededucation-wise, socially.
They're already, you arealready doing them a disservice
(21:09):
by getting divorced.
Emma Jean (21:11):
Wow.
Ingrid (21:12):
And this was over Zoom, which I'm glad because I
probably would have saidsomething if it was in person.
Emma Jean (21:17):
Sure yeah.
Ingrid (21:18):
But looking around the room or the, you know, the Zoom
room, I'm like you don't knowanybody's backstory and by then
I was aware of friends who hadgotten divorced from abusive
relationships.
And I'm like you don't, what ifthey were in here hearing this?
And then they think, oh my gosh, you know, I guess I'll
(21:39):
continue to endure, maybe Iwon't get divorced after all.
Emma Jean (21:42):
That's right.
That's right, and I think thathappens a lot.
I think there are a lot ofdifferent mindsets, for For some
people it's religion, you know,and that's another thing for me
.
I grew up Catholic, right, andI had asked my mother growing up
, like, why don't you getdivorced?
You're not happy, he's nothappy.
And her answer was I amCatholic and I'm not saying that
, that I'm not here to tell youthat, that that can't be a
(22:05):
correct mindset for someone else.
But I think what I'm saying isthere are a lot of different
mindsets that will tell you toendure something that maybe is
not healthy for you or yourchildren, and we have to be
discerning enough to not justtake those as black and white
all the time.
We have to look into ourspecific home.
(22:28):
I am sure that if you look atstatistics it's very easy to say
, oh, divorce is the hardest onthe children.
But let's look at all thenuances of you know of what's
going on in those homes and whatis really affecting those kids.
I don't think it's just divorcealone that's causing their
suffering.
Ingrid (22:49):
Not at all.
I have a friend whose sonturned and looked at her when he
was, I think, four years oldand said my daddy is really mean
.
And you know she was like Ineed to leave this relationship,
I can't stay here.
She did stay.
She still tried to.
You know how long can I endurethis?
But she did finally getdivorced.
Emma Jean (23:10):
But yeah, it's, those children are being affected
think that I don't know anysituation, any marriage, and
especially any abusive marriage,that's all just exactly the
same.
Or any partnership, that's allexactly the same.
(23:30):
But you and I can have found alot of common ground in my book
and I have heard from so manywomen who have said oh my gosh,
I feel like you're speaking tome and about me.
There are a lot of reallyconsistent patterns in what we
go through, and one of those isour children telling us that
they see the problems in ourmarriage.
Ingrid (23:54):
And they do.
And as much as you can, be apositive role model and show
strength for your children, bybeing out of the relationship,
you're showing them the exactsame thing by staying in or not
the exact, not a powerful rolemodel but you're still being a
role model to them by staying inthe relationship and that's not
a good thing.
(24:14):
It's not a good role model.
Emma Jean (24:15):
A good thing.
It's not a good role model?
No, it's not, Absolutely it'snot.
It's.
It shows a lot of strength towalk away, um, when it's really
necessary.
And I also think there arethose people who say, well, um,
my kids don't.
My kids don't hear us fight, mykids don't know the dynamics.
Your kids feel a lot of theenergy in your home and I am
(24:36):
sure that my kids heard a lot.
Well, in my case, it washappening right in front of them
and that was something Icouldn't control.
But I know that even whenpeople are trying to speak in
hushed tones, I could hear myparents fighting at night.
I knew what was going on.
I knew there was tension in theroom when they were being
silent.
Ingrid (24:53):
Yeah, I mean, my kids will look at me and I could have
like a stressful day at workand not say anything.
They'll come home from schooland they're like mom, what's
wrong?
Yes, nothing.
What are you talking about?
I'm fine, you know let's, we'regoing to go do this or whatever
.
I'm like no, something's wrong,and you know they're.
They're just picking up on my,my vibe, I guess you know and
they're very intuitive.
Emma Jean (25:15):
But you know what that's something that's.
Another common thread that Ihear a lot from mothers who have
been in abusive situations isthat their kids are really
checking their pulse a lot.
My kids did that and still dothat, feel very responsible for
my happiness because they saw mego through unhappiness.
(25:40):
We almost have this unhealthycodependency that I have to push
away and say that's not yourjob to worry about me and I can
have a bad day like anybody elseand the world isn't going to
crumble.
But I think we both have asense about each other.
You've been through too muchand I think they feel the same
back towards me and that's areally common thread with women
(26:01):
like us, because our childrenhave seen us be put through a
lot of sadness and they don'twant to.
They don't want to see it.
They recognize it and theydon't want to see even the
smallest signs of that.
Ingrid (26:11):
Which is so makes it so much more important to get out,
if you can, because then at somepoint the kids are going to
think well, I should, you know,should I have protected mommy,
or should I?
Did I say something to make dadmad?
You know, I'm the one whodropped the plate and made dad
mad and then now he's taking itout on mom, or you know whatever
.
Emma Jean (26:32):
Yeah, they're going to absorb it one way or another
or another.
But you're right, the worst waythat they could absorb it is to
perceive it as their fault.
And if you think about thatpassage that I read, where Ava
is saying to me in the car oh,I'll go in, I'll go in and I'll
act cute and I'll make him happy, she's taking responsibility
for how I'm going to be treated,and how dangerous was that?
(26:56):
I mean, I didn't even havenobody had to spell that out for
me to hear her say those things.
I just thought this is sick andtwisted, that she's going to
try and go in there and writethis for me and she's going to
do it by being cute.
It was almost like enabling thebehavior.
It's just, oh, that was justsuch a tangled little web of
(27:18):
what she was showing me that youknow that she was being
programmed into.
I think, if I think, if wedon't show the example of
walking away, we seal their fatein one direction, and I think
if we do show the example ofwalking away, we seal their fate
in the other.
It feels to me like my childrenjust get it, like it's a gift I
(27:38):
gave them and I can't ungive itand they're, they've absorbed
it, and that's who they are nowin their bones.
Ingrid (27:45):
Okay.
So more about getting out.
It's so I have mentioned thisin previous episodes that that
is one of the most dangeroustimes in a person's life is when
they choose to leave theirabuser and you know, you can
spit out statistics and you cansay contact these agencies,
(28:06):
they'll protect you, get arestraining order, you can say
all these different things thatare out there to help protect
you, but it doesn't necessarilyprotect people, and I think that
it's really important tounderstand your gut and you know
your abuser.
And if that's an individualthat you think that I can set
(28:26):
down the ground rules of, likeyou said, don't be home when I'm
moving out and have that andyou know that he's going to
follow it that's fantastic.
But other people this issomething that you need to don't
even let them know that youplan on leaving at all, Just
when they're at work, pack upand when they come home one day
(28:47):
you're going to be gone.
So, yes, that's somethingthat's really important to
consider when people do leave.
Emma Jean (28:54):
Definitely, and, you know, let a loved one know that
you're doing it and ask for thatkind of support to make sure
that you know you're safe andthat they know I'm doing this
this day.
But you're right, you may haveto um, you may have to get used
to the idea of leaving somethings behind as well.
I didn't take everything withme when I went.
I didn't have um, I moved outpretty quickly.
(29:19):
I had one day and there were alot of things that I left in the
unfinished portion of thebasement that maybe meant
something to me but that Ididn't take with me and I got
over it.
I know, I know I spoke to onewoman the other day who said I
was outside with playing with mychild and my partner was taking
a nap and I said to myself Idon't want to be, I don't want
(29:39):
to go back in that house, Idon't want to do this anymore.
And she walked inside andgrabbed her children's, her load
of laundry that was in thedryer and her children's clothes
and put them in a bag and leftand didn't come back and for her
that was the right way out,right, she didn't have to battle
with anybody, she didn't haveto ask permission or be held.
You know, held against her,will she didn't have to ask
permission or be held.
You know, held against her,will she?
(30:00):
Just for her.
I just need these clothes, Ijust and that's, and that's
enough for me because you canreplace anything else you can't
replace your safety Absolutelyand when the opportunity strikes
, take it.
Ingrid (30:10):
I did an episode on Tina Turner and she had just gotten
beaten up by Ike and she ranacross a highway.
He was taking a nap.
She ran out of the hotel, ranacross a highway into another
hotel, bloody and a mess.
But that was the opportunitythat she had and she took it and
she didn't go back, which alsodon't feel bad if you go back.
(30:31):
It takes an average of seventimes for someone to officially
leave their abuser.
Emma Jean (30:39):
Yeah, I think for me it was three or four, and I mean
I'm talking about him having aU-Haul and moving out and then
me calling him back home.
And you know, sometimes you'rejust, you're just not ready.
But once you're ready and I'veheard a lot of women say this
once you're ready, that switchflips and you can't, you can't,
you can't go back.
I couldn't stand to be in hispresence after that anymore.
Ingrid (31:03):
Yeah, once you hit I think there's there's a final
straw for everyone, and once youget there, you know that's it,
that's it and I'm not going backand it's.
It's a really great feelingactually, uh, to finally get to
that point.
Emma Jean (31:18):
Okay.
Ingrid (31:20):
So is there anything else you want to talk about on
this section?
Okay, so you're going to comeback next week one more time and
talk about what happens onceyou're out and all the work that
goes into it.
Emma Jean (31:34):
I look forward to it.
Ingrid (31:38):
Okay, we'll see you then .
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