March 26, 2025 • 38 mins
What happens after you leave an abuse relationship? The movies would have you believe it's all sunshine and roses once you escape, but the reality is far more complicated. Author Emma Jean Rowin returns to share the final chapter of her journey, reading from her powerful memoir "When Things Collapse" and exploring the complex aftermath of domestic abuse.
Emma Jean opens with a reading about "The Work of Letting Peace In," describing how survivors often develop hypervigilance as a protection mechanism. This overwhelming need to control one's environment—especially for parents trying to shield their children from further harm—becomes its own struggle that requires intentional healing.
One of the most profound revelations in our conversation is how both of us believed we were "too smart" or "too strong" to be abuse victims. This common belief actually makes us more vulnerable, as it prevents us from recognizing abuse for what it is and seeking help. We discuss how abuse creates neural pathways that trigger unexpected reactions in future relationships, requiring conscious reprogramming through therapy and self-awareness.
"If a person's good side is very good and their bad side is very bad, you have to let go of both," Emma Jean shares, highlighting one of the most difficult aspects of leaving—the uncertainty about whether those good moments were real, and learning that ultimately, it doesn't matter. The intensity that many survivors become accustomed to in relationships is not healthy, though it can take time to understand that peaceful relationships are actually the goal.
While the journey after abuse isn't fair and requires tremendous work, the peace and freedom are worth it. There's a special appreciation for autonomy that survivors develop—the ability to make decisions without fear, to experience calm without walking on eggshells, to simply be. If you're on this journey, remember that all your feelings are valid, healing isn't linear, and you are never, ever alone.
Emma Jean’s 1in3 bio: https://www.1in3podcast.com/guests/emma-jean-rowin/
Link to “When Things Collapse”: https://a.co/d/8wTUZ1W
1 in 3 is intended for mature audiences. Episodes contain explicit content and may be triggering to some.
If you are in the United States and need help right now, call the national domestic violence hotline at 800-799-7233 or text the word “start” to 88788.
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Cover art by Laura Swift Dahlke
Music by Tim Crowe
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi Warriors, welcome to One in Three.
I'm your host, ingrid.
In the last two episodes, wefollowed Emma Jean Rowan's
journey through an abusiverelationship from its onset to
the depths of the turmoil.
Today, after sharing one moreexcerpt from her book when
Things Collapse, we dive into aconversation about the thoughts
(00:20):
and beliefs we each had heldregarding our personal
experiences with our abusers,both during and after the
relationship.
Here's Emma Jean.
Hi, emma Jean.
This is episode number threeand this is a very important
episode.
The other two were important aswell, but this one we're going
(00:42):
to talk about what happens onceyou are out of the relationship.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Okay, yeah, I'm excited to talk about this.
So I'm going to start with oneof the later, one of the last
chapters in my book, where I'mdiscussing after I've left, the
final time and how, that kind ofhow that manifests itself and
how that manifests itself,because what I want people to
know is that you don't just getout and suddenly it's not like a
(01:08):
movie where it's all rainbowsand sunshine.
There's work to do afterwards,and for me, I had quite a bit of
work to do.
So this chapter is called theWork of Letting Peace In, and
I'm going to read an excerpt.
The obvious gift of severing ourlives from Alec is that, for
the first time in a decade, Igained the ability to control my
own peace and the peace of mychildren, and peace is a
(01:30):
cherished gift for those whohave been deprived of it.
The unexpected caveat ofcontrolling my own peace is that
I can't stop myself from doingjust that.
And overnight, a meddlingmonster is born.
This meddling monster thriveson the belief that Ava and Cal
have already been through toomuch for one lifetime, have paid
their allotted dues to tragedy,so to speak.
(01:50):
So, with clear purpose, I setout to shield them from any
potential new strife for thelength of their days.
This manifests in a number ofways.
I interview my children forpain daily, checking in
constantly to see how they'vebeen treated at school by
classmates, friends and teachers.
This information helps mepredict which outside forces
might pose the threat, the nextthreat to them, and once I
(02:13):
identify those threats, I try tohead them off at the pass,
making phone calls to schoolsand parents like some sort of
overprotective parental goaliekeeping my children's pain score
at zero.
Dare to come near my childrenwith anything other than love
and light and I'll knock yourblock off promptly with my mom
cleats.
My counselor, judy, calls thiscompulsion to control
(02:34):
hypervigilance.
She explains that, ironically,this type of controlling
parenting has the potential tohurt my children over time.
This perks my ears and propelsme to do the work, but the
tentacles of the hypervigilancemonster are deeply anchored
within me.
It takes years of regularcounseling for me to grasp the
less is more concept of applyingmy input to my children.
(02:55):
Putting it into practice,though, is another beast
entirely.
Judy explains that my checkingbehaviors are like a shot in the
arm to a drug addict that quellmy cravings to control my own
fate.
The withdrawal I feel inletting my children live their
own lives and make their owndecisions is physically painful
at time.
But I keep trying and failing,hoping it will become less
(03:15):
difficult.
Judy claims that practicingmental habit changes over time,
reprograms my neural pathwaysand eventually it will become
easier until it feels automatic.
I buy into this concept hard.
The work of unraveling oneselfis not easy, but I refuse to get
this wrong for my childrenafter all we have overcome.
In the midst of this work, Ialso toil with guilt over
(03:38):
leaving Alec behind in his chaos.
Where does Alec's mentalillness end and his humanity
begin?
Is his anger really just anger,or is it also hurt?
Could he have gotten better ifI hadn't left him?
If so, am I to blame for hisdemise?
Often, when my happiness glowsbrightest, the shadow of guilt
it casts is the largest.
(03:58):
Judy explains this assurvivor's guilt.
You took the lifeboat and left,she tells me.
Where would you and your kidsbe if you hadn't?
There is an obligation thatpulls at us as women, programmed
into us through our motherlyinstincts to nurture, to console
, to rescue what needs ourhealing.
For me, an empathic heart givesme a window to the inner child
(04:20):
of some of the most hurt humans.
I see it all around me, thedisappointed youngster inside
every adult's outer struggle.
It's the same window throughwhich I saw my father and the
hurt child inside of him,teaching me to pity males and
forgive them endlessly for theirangry behavior.
The origin of an individual'smental illness isn't a black and
white matter.
(04:40):
Was it drug use that led to theonset for Alec Conspiracy
theories?
Or was it his family historythat led him to the drug use and
the conspiracy theories?
We can never say for certainwhich combination or succession
of these factors caused hisdevolvement into darkness.
A chicken and egg scenario thatcycles unsolved and clouds the
barriers between what should andshouldn't be forgiven.
(05:02):
Alec's childhood trauma isn'this fault, nor is his genetic
predisposition toward mentalillness.
But today I would tell myyounger self that just because
you can see the origin of aperson's brokenness doesn't mean
you're bound to endure thesuffering it creates without end
.
We each have a choice in whatwe take on through compassion,
(05:22):
and its extension cannot bewithout limits.
After all, we each have our owninner child to comfort, our own
peace to protect and our ownlives to experience, and
regardless of the cause of aperson's affliction, we cannot
rescue someone who won't helpthemselves.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
That was another page that I had marked.
You read the two pages that Ihad marked so that I was like,
oh, that's really important.
That was one thing that Istruggled with for a while was
trying to figure out what causedthe abuse in my abuser's head,
(06:01):
you know, and was he consciousabout it?
Was it something that he wasn'tconscious about it?
Was you know, and was heconscious about it?
Was it something that he wasn'tconscious about it?
Was he?
You know so many things.
And then I finally was able toget to the point, with a lot of
therapy, of why are you going tobother yourself with figuring
him out when you have to figureyourself out and you know,
identify Like not that it was myfault that I ended up in a
(06:24):
relationship like that, but do Ihave any characteristics that
made me more susceptible to fallprey to that?
And you know, we've mentioned itin the previous episodes is the
self-love, and I don't think Iloved or respected myself enough
and perhaps if I did, Iwouldn't have carried on with
(06:45):
that relationship for as long asI did.
I wouldn't have carried on withthat relationship for as long
as I did.
The other thing that I've readis that abusers abuse because
they're abusers.
It might be mental illness, itmight be their childhood, it
might be a combination of both,it might be substance abuse, but
there are plenty of people thathave had bad childhoods, there
(07:06):
are plenty of people that havebeen through each of these or
all of those items and theychoose not to abuse.
So abusers abuse because theyare abusers or they're abusive.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
And also some abusers .
Many abusers are able tocontrol themselves in all other
public aspects of their lives.
So there is a choice there,right there is yes, and that's
something that I read reallyrecently I think, on Instagram,
where I get a lot of, but thatwas really important for me to
see that.
Oh, that's right.
You know, he could be reallynice when my family came over,
(07:43):
but not when it was just usalone, and I think that's that's
, you know.
And the other thing is, youknow when I would sit and
ruminate and oh, you know whatdid it mean?
You know, were his good timesgood?
Were those real?
Did he really love me?
And I can't tell you how manytimes I would lie awake at night
(08:04):
thinking about those things,both when I was with him and
then after, and I mean even justyears ago.
You know, you wake up in thenight sometimes and think I
can't believe.
I can't believe this happenedyou know, and the answer I've
settled on is much what you'vejust said.
Through therapy you learn itdoesn't matter.
It doesn't matter what themeaning is of those good times,
(08:26):
because something I tell my kidsall the time, since before they
were dating, is if a person'sgood side is very good and their
bad side is very bad, you haveto let go of both.
It doesn't matter what is thetruth of that good side, it
becomes irrelevant.
Just like we were saying abouta nuclear family You're no
(08:48):
longer allowed to be in anuclear family.
If you're an abuser and if youhave a terrible side to you,
then I no longer have to sit andfactor that in.
I shouldn't, because if I'mdoing that and I'm ruminating on
that, I'm opening myself up toask myself should I have
compassion for you?
And the moment something isunsafe, you don't receive any
(09:09):
more compassion from me, becausethat makes me unsafe.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
That is such good advice because the bad behavior
they can be, and there usuallyis a huge sway from one side to
the other when they're good,they're really good.
You feel like you are on top ofthe world and you're the most
important person.
In the other, when they're good, they're really good.
You feel like you are on top ofthe world and you're the most
important person in the world.
But then when it's bad, it canbe really bad and no, you don't
(09:34):
get to pick one and that's whatthey're going to stay with.
It's the same person you haveto drop all of it.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Yeah, you're right, because an intense person tends
to be intense on both sides ofthat spectrum and again, I think
I was attracted to that becauseI didn't see that with my
parents.
What I have learned is that itwould be better to have a five
on the negative side and a fiveon the positive side than two
tens, because you're you'reliving.
(10:03):
You can't live with a 10 on thenegative side.
You can't live with that 10 onthe negative side.
You can't live with that kindof intensity towards the
negative.
And so maybe, maybe if you haveto seek out relationships, that
it took me time to understandthat that tumultuous feeling
wasn't normal.
I was used to that and I alsoused to think, especially in my
(10:25):
relationship now, when Scott andI first started to date, I
would push his buttons whenthings got too calm, because
once the honeymoon period wasover, I think deep down I had a
fear that if we didn't haveintensity, he would be bored of
me, because I had always beenwith sort of these really cocky,
(10:47):
confident guys who loved theexcitement in a relationship and
loved the intensity, whether itwas good or bad.
It's very freeing to learn, toaccept, to be with someone who
can just allow you to bepeaceful and calm and love you
in that calmness.
That's what we should bereaching for right.
(11:07):
Yeah, because that's healthy.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
That's healthy.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
I did not know that before.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Yeah, those waves are a way to keep you unbalanced
and then for them to be able tomaintain control over you,
because you're so unsure ofwhich direction you're going to
go, because at some pointthere's a little bit of a
predictability to their moodswings, and then at some point
there's no predictability.
Something that would not havebothered them before is now
(11:37):
creating this massive explosion,and I remember saying at one
point to my abuser I'm like, canyou just be an asshole all the
time?
That way I know what to expect.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Yes, yes, and you get into the habit of walking on
eggshells and at some point itstops working because you can't
predict, like you're saying,it's something out of left field
.
I would have never thought thatthat would set you off, but it
did, and all these other thingsthat I'm tiptoeing around and
that's what.
I don't know what that is.
I guess it's.
Is it a need to release anexplosion?
Is it asserting control?
I don't really know.
I don't know why it's that way.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
I feel like it has to be, and I don't know if it's
again, I don't know if it's aconscious need or a conscious
thing to do to maintain control,but I do feel it is to maintain
control because, you know, ifyou just rip the rug out from
somebody, you're going to belike, okay, that never was an
issue before and now it is.
So now I have to be even moreon edge and more prepared for
(12:38):
anything, and it just itconfuses you too, because, at
you know, some of them willtwist it of like, no, you're
exaggerating, that actuallydidn't really happen, or they'll
forget what are you talkingabout?
I don't remember that happening.
Yes, yes, it makes you feellike you're crazy.
And then you're just even morestuck in that relationship,
(12:59):
because now can I even turn tosomebody to talk to them about
this?
Are they going to think I'mcrazy or are they going to take
his side?
Yes, I know when you wrote abouttalking to your mom and how you
were reluctant to tell yourfamily and I think that's
something that a lot of victimsfeel too is because if you get
(13:23):
certain friends involved or yourfamily involved and you start
telling them like, oh, he didthis, you don't want them to
cast this judgment, because howare you supposed to take him
back?
They're going to be like youneed to get rid of that guy.
Yeah, how are we going to sit?
Speaker 2 (13:39):
at a barbecue together next week.
If I've told you that he callsme a bitch you don't want to
cross.
It's really it's.
You don't want to cross thatthreshold.
And I waited way, way too longto cross that threshold.
And once I did, um, I rememberseeing the look on my family's
faces and my girlfriend's faceswhen I was just telling them I
(14:02):
was giving them just a littlebit of a watered down detail,
thinking I'll just see what theythink of this, and telling them
something, and then looking atme and saying that's not okay
and thinking, oh no, that's notthe worst of it.
You know that's not.
But and that's some advice thatI would give to people now is
don't hide.
I mean, I'm not saying, youknow, constantly be complaining
about your spouse or yourpartner, be complaining about
(14:28):
your spouse or your partner.
Certainly I uphold my partnerand I, um, and you know I
respect Scott and I don't goaround telling people every
argument or disagreement we have, but I don't, I would never
again hide the bad behavior frommy closest people, from my
mother, from, uh, my best friend, because it put me in a
position where I wasn't readingthings from an outside
(14:48):
perspective and I needed thatoutside perspective to see the
truth of what I was in.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
Yeah, and I mean you're.
Also, if you are reluctant totell somebody what's happening
to you, there's that it'salready a voice inside of you
saying you know, this is reallynot okay.
Because, if it's, if it'ssomething like oh my gosh, we
had an argument about what wewere going to watch over Netflix
and he chose this.
Of course you can tell yourfriends that and they're going
to be like, well, I would havechosen that too, or whatever.
(15:15):
It's not that big of a deal.
But if there's something thatyou're reluctant to tell
somebody, that's your gut.
Telling you this is really notokay, and you know that.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Yeah, you're right, you're right.
And ultimately I think thatdeep down we do know in our gut
that it isn't okay.
Because you're right, whywouldn't we?
Why wouldn't we say it out loud?
Then it's just, it's hard andyou really you don't want to
immerse yourself in sort of thatisolation.
And I was also a stay at homemom, so I wasn't going to an
(15:45):
office anymore.
I wasn't bouncing it off of mycoat.
You know it's a normal thingfor a coworker to come in in a
bad mood.
I think and say, ah, you know,he drove me crazy today and I'm
mad at him, and if it's the kindof fight that's, that's not a
big deal, then everybody canlaugh at that, right, right, I
wasn't bouncing anything off ofanybody and so I was living in
my head and so by the time I gotout, I didn't know how to
(16:09):
properly tell the story tomyself, to then understand I
should have left.
I knew when it came to mychildren, I knew that story.
I knew they shouldn't beexposed to this, but it took me
a long time to understand tomyself.
You deserve pity for whathappened to you.
Maybe not even until I read,wrote this book Did I understand
that I was.
(16:30):
I was a victim of abuse, whichis crazy.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
It's crazy.
It is and it isn't because Ithink that you, that tumultuous
life that they have, you living,the gaslighting, everything you
don't, you don't understand,understand or you're so confused
that it's difficult to actuallyput these into a definition and
to be able to label it.
(16:55):
For me, I knew in the back ofmy mind what was going on and I
didn't want to admit it out loudbecause I was like, if I say
what's happening to me, then I'ma victim of abuse and I'm too
smart to be a victim of abuse.
That's not what's happening.
(17:17):
And so it took a really longtime before I could actually
finally come to terms with whatwas happening and actually put
that label.
And I think that's a massivestep is for a victim to admit
they're a victim, and that'swhen you make that transition of
victim to survivor, becauseonce you're like, okay, I'm a
(17:40):
victim, I don't want to be avictim anymore.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
I need to get out of this.
Yeah, there's almost animposter syndrome about it.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
And I had said that to my best friend after I wrote
the book.
And then in talking about youknow, am I going to talk to this
advocate, about you knowhelping get this book into the
right hands?
And I said it's weird, like,can I call myself a domestic
violence victim?
(18:10):
And she said leave it to awoman to ask herself have I been
through enough trauma toqualify?
And she said anyone who readsthat book would say of course,
and most people would say thisis much worse than I even knew.
But there's something about usand I think it's kind of what
you've hit on.
I thought I was too smart forthat.
That same quality of thinking Iwas too smart for that allowed
(18:34):
me to absorb it.
I'm too strong.
This isn't going to hurt me.
So maybe if I saw anothergirl's husband treat her that
way, she would be an abusivevictim.
But if it happens to me, I'mstrong.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
So it's not the same, doesn't hit me the same, you
know, yeah, and I mean I would.
I would turn things on myselflike, okay, I can get mouthy
sometimes, so may I probablysaid something that set him off.
You know, yeah, you know I'm astrong, independent woman and
sometimes it's hard for somebodyto take, you know, and yeah,
that's problematic right,because I felt the same.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
I'm an assertive person.
I was raised by a woman who,you know, had feminist values in
the home and I think during allthe time that this was
happening to me, I think I stillwas out in the world saying I'm
a strong woman, you know,strong, independent woman.
And all the while lettingmyself endure these things and
(19:29):
not really feeling any pity formyself.
Just, this is that's my life,I'll get through it and really
just trying to practical,practical ways to just keep
getting through it.
And that's not.
That's not the strong woman Iwas.
I was trying to project.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Right and I have.
So one thing I wanted to goback that imposter syndrome I
was actually talking to a friendabout.
He had come upon my podcast andit's somebody that's from my
hometown and so we weremessaging about stuff and I said
sometimes I feel like I'm afraud for having this podcast on
domestic violence because I'vehad some bad stuff happen to me.
(20:07):
But I've talked to someindividuals that have had some
really, really bad things happento them.
I was never drug out to thewoods and had a shotgun put up
to my head.
That didn't happen to me.
I'm like, so I feel like maybeI'm not the right person to be
doing this.
And he was like do you knowwhat you've told me that you've
(20:27):
been through?
He's like that's abuse, yes,and it's.
It's really weird how we canlike downplay, uh, what's
happened to ourselves.
And I want to take a second.
Like you, you, you were sayingsome conversations.
You've read in some excerptsfrom your book of conversations
that you had with your abuser,and those were actual
(20:48):
conversations.
You didn't elaborate or throwin extra.
You know words fordramatization.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
I watered down because my ex-husband was so
intelligent and so clever.
The way he could spin insultswas it was so destructive and it
was so, so poignant and hurtful.
I actually decided at somepoint I would.
I would write out what wasactually said to me and then I
(21:24):
would come back and change somewords because it was so awful
that I thought it would beirresponsible to put it on the
page.
And what if somebody reads thisand one day they go say it to
someone else?
Because I've never heard?
anyone say some of the things Imean every part of my body has
been insulted and it you know.
(21:45):
Here's the thing If you've gotsomeone intelligent, you don't
have.
It's not just some guy spewingobscenities I mean, there were
obscenities, but he was.
These are very nuanced turns ofphrase and he was taking things
that I maybe suspected wereflaws about me and turning them
into this heightened horribleimagery.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
And yeah, it's actually what you read in the
book is watered down sadly Okay,and I mean I thought it was
very believable, but I wanted tobring that up in case there's
somebody that's never beenexposed to domestic violence
that reads it and is like oh no,this is exaggerated, there's no
way somebody would talk likethat to another individual.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
I wish wish.
I wish it's exaggerated, it's,it's downplayed for sure.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Um, another thing I wanted to bring up.
As far as you know, feelinglike a strong woman is when I
got out of my relationship, Ifelt I, I've got this.
I, you know, I can, I'm livingon my own, I'm doing all of this
.
I'm so strong, and it's like Iformed this little bubble again.
You know, I had my littleabusive bubble when I was in it
(22:52):
and then after, immediatelyafterward, I had another bubble
of where, this is it, I've gotthis.
You know, the hard part's done.
And I was cruising for quite awhile, probably close to a year,
and then all of a sudden Istarted noticing little cracks
in myself where I was.
You know, I'd have like afriend, a male friend, say
(23:14):
something to me and I would justlike lash out like what do you
mean by that?
And he's like whoa, what areyou talking about?
You know, and I realized I'mlike, oh, I'm not okay.
And I realized, oh, I'm notokay, I'm holding a lot of
(23:38):
issues inside of me and I'mholding other people accountable
for something that they weren'timplying or meaning at all,
because I had done brief therapyright after, and then I thought
I was okay, and then so I waslike I have to get back into
therapy again to figure outwhat's going on, and it's so
important to do that.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
That is that's the one piece of advice I would give
to anyone who has left.
You know, a hurtfulrelationship is that you've got
some deprogramming that you'vegot to do and you're right
things will cruise along justfine and then it will.
It will pop up later.
I still have some fight orflight patterns to my arguing.
You know, I have a very calmhusband now but he's disagreeing
(24:15):
with me.
I mean I might jump up, try andjump out of the car at Panera,
at the drive-through, because ofmy fight or flight is so strong
.
Well, I'll just get out hereand walk home.
You know that's crazy and Ihave to work on toning that down
.
And also, when you have beenfighting with someone who goes
immediately to a 10, or you know, with with my ex-husband, I
mean that's the meanest personI've ever met and I spent you
(24:38):
know I spent 12 years arguingwith that person.
I go when, when someonedisagrees with me or they hurt
my feelings, or when I feelsomeone is crossing my
boundaries, I go straight to a10.
And that's not necessary andit's not normal.
And it can be very like you'resaying, it's very off-putting to
people, but it's something thatit's not even just in my
(24:59):
marriage.
I will do it with friends, Iwill do it at work.
I have to.
You know, you have to pullyourself back and learn through
therapy to take a breath andrealize you're not in danger
just because someone has hurtyour feelings.
You know.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Yeah, because your brain makes pathways to try to,
you know, save you or, you know,make life more tolerable.
So you can bury all these.
I don't hate the word triggers.
I do think sometimes peopleoveruse it, you know like, oh my
God, I put whipped cream on mycoffee and that triggered me.
But you know, you have thesetriggers that are buried in
(25:37):
there that you might not even beaware of.
And then, all of a sudden,you're this like massive
reaction to something that makesno sense to anybody.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Yes, I will give you an example in my, because I was
so controlled in my firstmarriage and it was a big deal
if I were to.
I was, you know, I wasn'tallowed to go out and socialize
and, you know, be with myfriends in a lot of control in
that aspect.
So now where I am in a marriage, where that is normal, because
that is normal anywhere, if I amgoing somewhere and my husband
(26:12):
asks me, hey, do you have anyidea what you'll, what time
you'll be home, he wouldprobably be asking
circumstantially.
You know, do I need to getdinner on my own?
Should I go take our kids todinner?
If he just asked me thatquestion, I am immediately.
I just I feel so much heatinside it.
You don't ask me, I don't haveto answer to you what time I'll
be home.
You know it's kind of he'sasking for courtesy and to plan
(26:35):
for the night, but I have areally hard time answering that
question and it's it's.
I have an internal reaction tothat that's not congruent to
what's being asked.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Yeah, and sometimes I mean therapy doesn't
necessarily make that go away,but it at least clues you in as
to.
Okay, let me, let me recentermyself and figure out what's
happening.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
He wasn't trying to control me, he's not you know
(27:17):
telling me not to go at all.
But yeah, I can get that.
I can totally get reacting thatway.
Movies about abuse, especiallyolder movies.
It's a man who starts out, he'spretending in the beginning and
then he is evil and it's veryclear that he's evil and he is
immediately physically abusiveand he's never good anymore,
(27:38):
he's only bad.
And then when she gets out, herlife is better.
None of that is that black andwhite.
It's so much more nuanced thanthat.
Especially getting out, thereare years of work to do, but
also within that it's worth itbecause there are all those
great moments of freedom andfeeling great about yourself and
, oh my gosh, I can set my houseup the way I want to and I
(28:01):
don't have to ask anybody to gospend $50.
Want to and I don't have to askanybody to.
You know, go spend $50.
And those are.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Those are the moments that make it worth it.
While you're working through itAbsolutely, and it it's okay to
feel good and be doing well andthen sit down and cry and it's
normal, I think, to miss thatpast life.
You're not missing the abusebut, like we mentioned a lot of
times, that there there are goodtimes too and you wonder a lot.
(28:34):
I, at least I did.
I wondered well, was it just me?
Like is he going to be okay inthe next relationship?
Is that one going to work out?
And it was just me.
And and why couldn't it haveworked with me and we had such
good times and I miss that.
Or would it just be easier if Ijust went back, Like I'm
struggling here with whateverissues, Like would it be easier
(28:57):
to just go back to him?
So I think all of those arenormal feelings and, like you
mentioned, it's not going to beall roses from here on out.
It is work.
It's not going to be all rosesfrom here on out.
It is work.
And it's not fair.
I'll say that too.
It's not fair.
It's not fair.
It's not fair for you to havefallen in love with somebody who
chose to abuse you and youdidn't let them abuse you.
(29:19):
They chose to abuse you andhere you are trying to heal,
trying to live your life, andyou're going to hit some
roadblocks along the way bumps,walls, it might, you know,
whatever and it's not fair.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
It's not fair and it's okay that it's not fair and
it's okay to sit down and cryabout it and let all of it out,
and I think you feel better andyou move on to the next time.
And then you go another spelluntil something else hits you,
and that's how you know what youneed to work on, right, that's
how you know what you need to go.
I write things down to tell mytherapist.
She's in my head all the time.
I'm always talking to Judy andI'll tell Judy this, you know.
(29:55):
But Judy also calls me on myown BS, right?
So she does that in therapy.
I have her voice in my head nowcalling me on my BS, and she's
like that's how you know thetherapy is working.
You know when my voice is inyour head.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
I liked how you had that interaction with your
therapist about the book.
And she's like have you readthe book?
And you're like, no, I sent it.
And she's like, of course youdid, Of course you did.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
Of course she does.
I like to make what what Judycalls loopholes, where I come in
and I'm like I can't wait totell you this great thing I did,
and she's like that's aloophole to what we were working
on, and what do you mean?
What are you talking about,especially with my
hypervigilance?
I would do that, you know Iwould really come in with these,
(30:46):
these causes that I.
You know I really needed tohelp Ava out with this.
No, you didn't, she's.
You know you should be sittingback.
I do a lot of that in therapybut I'm learning to
self-regulate.
But also, you know it isn'tfair what has happened to us and
it's it's hard that we have togo through this work.
But there are so many silverlinings and one of those silver
linings is just my appreciationfor the peace around me.
(31:07):
I'm so grateful to just behealthy and happy and to have,
say, over my own life and tohave agency over myself.
And I see it in my kids too.
I think my kids have adifferent kind of appreciation
for life around them and adifferent kind of strength than
I see in other kids.
So while I would never havewished on them to go through
(31:28):
these things or myself, I cansee the aspects where it has
also built us to be stronger andmore appreciative.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
Yeah and yes, absolutely.
And all the feelings are fine.
And if you want to be proud ofyourself, if it's a something
little, feelings are fine.
And if you want to be proud ofyourself, if it's a something
little, absolutely celebratethat.
Go get an ice cream sundae orsomething, celebrate whatever.
That's okay.
You want to be pissed off?
Get pissed off.
All of that is fine and it isgreat.
(31:59):
And I love that you mentionedthe kids, because I do think
that they definitely have astrength that, like you
mentioned, you don't necessarilyyou wished they wouldn't have
to have gone through whatever itwas that they went through to
get that strength.
But they are stronger and soare we and so are you and it's,
(32:20):
it's work, but wow, to get, toget to the other side and to.
It's amazing.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
It's worth it.
And you're right, we need tolet ourselves be proud and
celebrate, and you, especiallywith your podcast, should be
really proud of this, becausethis is really it's good work
that you're doing here.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
Thank you and your book, I think, is going to be so
helpful.
It was.
You know.
I'm sure you've heard ofColleen Hoover's book that she
wrote that turned into a movie.
I read that, I don't know,maybe a year to, I don't when it
first came out.
Maybe what I like about I'mgoing to say yours is better.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Did my mom pay you to say that Mom would you call in
as a guest?
Speaker 1 (33:10):
You know, I read both and I I do think that yours,
yours, was better because ityours like, took you into it,
like you were there, you'reliving the moment, reading it,
and hers was it's almost likeyou're you're watching.
I mean it was made into a movie.
I felt like it was likewatching a movie, like okay, you
(33:30):
know, and it's, and grantedit's, there's a lot of fiction
in hers.
I think hers is probably mostlyfiction.
I think she put a tiny bit offactual things that happened
maybe when she was a kid to hermom or something.
But yours, yours, really pullsyou in and I think that I mean
maybe I'm biased because I've,I've lived that, you know that
(33:52):
life, but it gives a goodunderstanding and you even, you
even do sympathize with Alec atsome point.
You know I still do, I still doand and I mean I did and it's
you know I'm reading this andlike, okay.
So you know, and a lot of timeswhen you read a book like this,
you're like there's the goodguy, there's the bad guy, you
hate the bad guy.
(34:13):
It's easy to hate the bad guyand it's easy to love the good
guy and this just, it just showshow real this is because I
don't think I ever hated him.
Yeah, you know, there, I thinkthere were times where I was
like, oh, come on man.
Yeah, you know, and and forsure there are parts where, like
my heart broke for him.
(34:33):
Um, and that's real.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Yeah, and I wish it were that easy.
I wish it were as easy as loveand hate and good and evil.
It's.
It's more complex than that andthat's that's what we have to
work through to get out right.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
And, yeah, you did an amazing job.
I am so proud of the book andto read it.
It's, it's.
You know it has to be a littlebit of like I don't know what
the word is.
I do know what the word is, butit's not coming to me.
But oh, raw, like in in, justvulnerable to.
You're letting people into thispart of your life that is very
(35:11):
difficult to share with evenyour closest.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Yes, especially at first it was very I felt very
vulnerable and I would even bein like these kind of bad moods
certain days.
I'd be very excited one day andoh, you know the, the book.
You know people are on Amazonbuying it and people would give
me good feedback.
And then other days I wouldfeel so vulnerable and I would
say to Scott, I wish I couldjust take it off and not put it
(35:37):
out there anymore.
I wish I had never done this.
You know that is hard and it'sgetting easier and easier.
But I think I needed theperspective of people from the
outside seeing it.
And also, when I wasn't tellingpeople my story, I wasn't being
my authentic self and it'simportant for us.
There are people out there whowould like women like us to just
shut up and, you know, get overit.
(36:00):
You're not being your authenticself.
You can't know me and anyonewho reads this book would
understand that you can't knowme and not know that part of my
story.
That's a huge part of who I amand your story is a huge part of
who you are.
So if we're going to make realfriends and be authentic and
connect, we have to put it outthere.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
Yes, yeah, completely agree, and it's also healing to
talk about it is you put it outthere and it does help you
process through it a little bitbetter.
Well, emma-jane, thank you somuch again for joining me.
This was great.
This three-part series wasamazing, and I really appreciate
(36:39):
you taking the time.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
Thank you.
It's been really great talkingto you and it's actually just
been more therapy and morehealing for me.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
So I really am grateful to have met you and
have this conversation Same.
Thank you again to Emma Jean forjoining me today and thank you
for listening.
I have included the link toEmma Jean's one in three profile
, as well as where to get herbook in the show notes.
I will be back next week withanother episode for you.
(37:06):
Until then, stay strong andwherever you are in your journey
, always remember you are notalone.
Find more information, registeras a guest or leave a review by
going to the websiteonein3podcastcom.
That's the number one.
I-n the number three podcastcom.
Follow One in number one.
I N the number three podcastcom.
(37:27):
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at one in three podcast.
To help me out, please rememberto rate, review and subscribe.
One in three is a 0.5 Pinoyproduction music written and
performed by Tim Crow.
Hi Warriors, welcome to One in Three.
I'm your host, ingrid.
In the last two episodes, wefollowed Emma Jean Rowan's
journey through an abusiverelationship from its onset to
the depths of the turmoil.
Today, after sharing one moreexcerpt from her book when
Things Collapse, we dive into aconversation about the thoughts
(00:20):
and beliefs we each had heldregarding our personal
experiences with our abusers,both during and after the
relationship.
Here's Emma Jean.
Hi, emma Jean.
This is episode number threeand this is a very important
episode.
The other two were important aswell, but this one we're going
(00:42):
to talk about what happens onceyou are out of the relationship.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Okay, yeah, I'm excited to talk about this.
So I'm going to start with oneof the later, one of the last
chapters in my book, where I'mdiscussing after I've left, the
final time and how, that kind ofhow that manifests itself and
how that manifests itself,because what I want people to
know is that you don't just getout and suddenly it's not like a
(01:08):
movie where it's all rainbowsand sunshine.
There's work to do afterwards,and for me, I had quite a bit of
work to do.
So this chapter is called theWork of Letting Peace In, and
I'm going to read an excerpt.
The obvious gift of severing ourlives from Alec is that, for
the first time in a decade, Igained the ability to control my
own peace and the peace of mychildren, and peace is a
(01:30):
cherished gift for those whohave been deprived of it.
The unexpected caveat ofcontrolling my own peace is that
I can't stop myself from doingjust that.
And overnight, a meddlingmonster is born.
This meddling monster thriveson the belief that Ava and Cal
have already been through toomuch for one lifetime, have paid
their allotted dues to tragedy,so to speak.
(01:50):
So, with clear purpose, I setout to shield them from any
potential new strife for thelength of their days.
This manifests in a number ofways.
I interview my children forpain daily, checking in
constantly to see how they'vebeen treated at school by
classmates, friends and teachers.
This information helps mepredict which outside forces
might pose the threat, the nextthreat to them, and once I
(02:13):
identify those threats, I try tohead them off at the pass,
making phone calls to schoolsand parents like some sort of
overprotective parental goaliekeeping my children's pain score
at zero.
Dare to come near my childrenwith anything other than love
and light and I'll knock yourblock off promptly with my mom
cleats.
My counselor, judy, calls thiscompulsion to control
(02:34):
hypervigilance.
She explains that, ironically,this type of controlling
parenting has the potential tohurt my children over time.
This perks my ears and propelsme to do the work, but the
tentacles of the hypervigilancemonster are deeply anchored
within me.
It takes years of regularcounseling for me to grasp the
less is more concept of applyingmy input to my children.
(02:55):
Putting it into practice,though, is another beast
entirely.
Judy explains that my checkingbehaviors are like a shot in the
arm to a drug addict that quellmy cravings to control my own
fate.
The withdrawal I feel inletting my children live their
own lives and make their owndecisions is physically painful
at time.
But I keep trying and failing,hoping it will become less
(03:15):
difficult.
Judy claims that practicingmental habit changes over time,
reprograms my neural pathwaysand eventually it will become
easier until it feels automatic.
I buy into this concept hard.
The work of unraveling oneselfis not easy, but I refuse to get
this wrong for my childrenafter all we have overcome.
In the midst of this work, Ialso toil with guilt over
(03:38):
leaving Alec behind in his chaos.
Where does Alec's mentalillness end and his humanity
begin?
Is his anger really just anger,or is it also hurt?
Could he have gotten better ifI hadn't left him?
If so, am I to blame for hisdemise?
Often, when my happiness glowsbrightest, the shadow of guilt
it casts is the largest.
(03:58):
Judy explains this assurvivor's guilt.
You took the lifeboat and left,she tells me.
Where would you and your kidsbe if you hadn't?
There is an obligation thatpulls at us as women, programmed
into us through our motherlyinstincts to nurture, to console
, to rescue what needs ourhealing.
For me, an empathic heart givesme a window to the inner child
(04:20):
of some of the most hurt humans.
I see it all around me, thedisappointed youngster inside
every adult's outer struggle.
It's the same window throughwhich I saw my father and the
hurt child inside of him,teaching me to pity males and
forgive them endlessly for theirangry behavior.
The origin of an individual'smental illness isn't a black and
white matter.
(04:40):
Was it drug use that led to theonset for Alec Conspiracy
theories?
Or was it his family historythat led him to the drug use and
the conspiracy theories?
We can never say for certainwhich combination or succession
of these factors caused hisdevolvement into darkness.
A chicken and egg scenario thatcycles unsolved and clouds the
barriers between what should andshouldn't be forgiven.
(05:02):
Alec's childhood trauma isn'this fault, nor is his genetic
predisposition toward mentalillness.
But today I would tell myyounger self that just because
you can see the origin of aperson's brokenness doesn't mean
you're bound to endure thesuffering it creates without end
.
We each have a choice in whatwe take on through compassion,
(05:22):
and its extension cannot bewithout limits.
After all, we each have our owninner child to comfort, our own
peace to protect and our ownlives to experience, and
regardless of the cause of aperson's affliction, we cannot
rescue someone who won't helpthemselves.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
That was another page that I had marked.
You read the two pages that Ihad marked so that I was like,
oh, that's really important.
That was one thing that Istruggled with for a while was
trying to figure out what causedthe abuse in my abuser's head,
(06:01):
you know, and was he consciousabout it?
Was it something that he wasn'tconscious about it?
Was you know, and was heconscious about it?
Was it something that he wasn'tconscious about it?
Was he?
You know so many things.
And then I finally was able toget to the point, with a lot of
therapy, of why are you going tobother yourself with figuring
him out when you have to figureyourself out and you know,
identify Like not that it was myfault that I ended up in a
(06:24):
relationship like that, but do Ihave any characteristics that
made me more susceptible to fallprey to that?
And you know, we've mentioned itin the previous episodes is the
self-love, and I don't think Iloved or respected myself enough
and perhaps if I did, Iwouldn't have carried on with
(06:45):
that relationship for as long asI did.
I wouldn't have carried on withthat relationship for as long
as I did.
The other thing that I've readis that abusers abuse because
they're abusers.
It might be mental illness, itmight be their childhood, it
might be a combination of both,it might be substance abuse, but
there are plenty of people thathave had bad childhoods, there
(07:06):
are plenty of people that havebeen through each of these or
all of those items and theychoose not to abuse.
So abusers abuse because theyare abusers or they're abusive.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
And also some abusers .
Many abusers are able tocontrol themselves in all other
public aspects of their lives.
So there is a choice there,right there is yes, and that's
something that I read reallyrecently I think, on Instagram,
where I get a lot of, but thatwas really important for me to
see that.
Oh, that's right.
You know, he could be reallynice when my family came over,
(07:43):
but not when it was just usalone, and I think that's that's
, you know.
And the other thing is, youknow when I would sit and
ruminate and oh, you know whatdid it mean?
You know, were his good timesgood?
Were those real?
Did he really love me?
And I can't tell you how manytimes I would lie awake at night
(08:04):
thinking about those things,both when I was with him and
then after, and I mean even justyears ago.
You know, you wake up in thenight sometimes and think I
can't believe.
I can't believe this happenedyou know, and the answer I've
settled on is much what you'vejust said.
Through therapy you learn itdoesn't matter.
It doesn't matter what themeaning is of those good times,
(08:26):
because something I tell my kidsall the time, since before they
were dating, is if a person'sgood side is very good and their
bad side is very bad, you haveto let go of both.
It doesn't matter what is thetruth of that good side, it
becomes irrelevant.
Just like we were saying abouta nuclear family You're no
(08:48):
longer allowed to be in anuclear family.
If you're an abuser and if youhave a terrible side to you,
then I no longer have to sit andfactor that in.
I shouldn't, because if I'mdoing that and I'm ruminating on
that, I'm opening myself up toask myself should I have
compassion for you?
And the moment something isunsafe, you don't receive any
(09:09):
more compassion from me, becausethat makes me unsafe.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
That is such good advice because the bad behavior
they can be, and there usuallyis a huge sway from one side to
the other when they're good,they're really good.
You feel like you are on top ofthe world and you're the most
important person.
In the other, when they're good, they're really good.
You feel like you are on top ofthe world and you're the most
important person in the world.
But then when it's bad, it canbe really bad and no, you don't
(09:34):
get to pick one and that's whatthey're going to stay with.
It's the same person you haveto drop all of it.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Yeah, you're right, because an intense person tends
to be intense on both sides ofthat spectrum and again, I think
I was attracted to that becauseI didn't see that with my
parents.
What I have learned is that itwould be better to have a five
on the negative side and a fiveon the positive side than two
tens, because you're you'reliving.
(10:03):
You can't live with a 10 on thenegative side.
You can't live with that 10 onthe negative side.
You can't live with that kindof intensity towards the
negative.
And so maybe, maybe if you haveto seek out relationships, that
it took me time to understandthat that tumultuous feeling
wasn't normal.
I was used to that and I alsoused to think, especially in my
(10:25):
relationship now, when Scott andI first started to date, I
would push his buttons whenthings got too calm, because
once the honeymoon period wasover, I think deep down I had a
fear that if we didn't haveintensity, he would be bored of
me, because I had always beenwith sort of these really cocky,
(10:47):
confident guys who loved theexcitement in a relationship and
loved the intensity, whether itwas good or bad.
It's very freeing to learn, toaccept, to be with someone who
can just allow you to bepeaceful and calm and love you
in that calmness.
That's what we should bereaching for right.
(11:07):
Yeah, because that's healthy.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
That's healthy.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
I did not know that before.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Yeah, those waves are a way to keep you unbalanced
and then for them to be able tomaintain control over you,
because you're so unsure ofwhich direction you're going to
go, because at some pointthere's a little bit of a
predictability to their moodswings, and then at some point
there's no predictability.
Something that would not havebothered them before is now
(11:37):
creating this massive explosion,and I remember saying at one
point to my abuser I'm like, canyou just be an asshole all the
time?
That way I know what to expect.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Yes, yes, and you get into the habit of walking on
eggshells and at some point itstops working because you can't
predict, like you're saying,it's something out of left field
.
I would have never thought thatthat would set you off, but it
did, and all these other thingsthat I'm tiptoeing around and
that's what.
I don't know what that is.
I guess it's.
Is it a need to release anexplosion?
Is it asserting control?
I don't really know.
I don't know why it's that way.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
I feel like it has to be, and I don't know if it's
again, I don't know if it's aconscious need or a conscious
thing to do to maintain control,but I do feel it is to maintain
control because, you know, ifyou just rip the rug out from
somebody, you're going to belike, okay, that never was an
issue before and now it is.
So now I have to be even moreon edge and more prepared for
(12:38):
anything, and it just itconfuses you too, because, at
you know, some of them willtwist it of like, no, you're
exaggerating, that actuallydidn't really happen, or they'll
forget what are you talkingabout?
I don't remember that happening.
Yes, yes, it makes you feellike you're crazy.
And then you're just even morestuck in that relationship,
(12:59):
because now can I even turn tosomebody to talk to them about
this?
Are they going to think I'mcrazy or are they going to take
his side?
Yes, I know when you wrote abouttalking to your mom and how you
were reluctant to tell yourfamily and I think that's
something that a lot of victimsfeel too is because if you get
(13:23):
certain friends involved or yourfamily involved and you start
telling them like, oh, he didthis, you don't want them to
cast this judgment, because howare you supposed to take him
back?
They're going to be like youneed to get rid of that guy.
Yeah, how are we going to sit?
Speaker 2 (13:39):
at a barbecue together next week.
If I've told you that he callsme a bitch you don't want to
cross.
It's really it's.
You don't want to cross thatthreshold.
And I waited way, way too longto cross that threshold.
And once I did, um, I rememberseeing the look on my family's
faces and my girlfriend's faceswhen I was just telling them I
(14:02):
was giving them just a littlebit of a watered down detail,
thinking I'll just see what theythink of this, and telling them
something, and then looking atme and saying that's not okay
and thinking, oh no, that's notthe worst of it.
You know that's not.
But and that's some advice thatI would give to people now is
don't hide.
I mean, I'm not saying, youknow, constantly be complaining
about your spouse or yourpartner, be complaining about
(14:28):
your spouse or your partner.
Certainly I uphold my partnerand I, um, and you know I
respect Scott and I don't goaround telling people every
argument or disagreement we have, but I don't, I would never
again hide the bad behavior frommy closest people, from my
mother, from, uh, my best friend, because it put me in a
position where I wasn't readingthings from an outside
(14:48):
perspective and I needed thatoutside perspective to see the
truth of what I was in.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
Yeah, and I mean you're.
Also, if you are reluctant totell somebody what's happening
to you, there's that it'salready a voice inside of you
saying you know, this is reallynot okay.
Because, if it's, if it'ssomething like oh my gosh, we
had an argument about what wewere going to watch over Netflix
and he chose this.
Of course you can tell yourfriends that and they're going
to be like, well, I would havechosen that too, or whatever.
(15:15):
It's not that big of a deal.
But if there's something thatyou're reluctant to tell
somebody, that's your gut.
Telling you this is really notokay, and you know that.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Yeah, you're right, you're right.
And ultimately I think thatdeep down we do know in our gut
that it isn't okay.
Because you're right, whywouldn't we?
Why wouldn't we say it out loud?
Then it's just, it's hard andyou really you don't want to
immerse yourself in sort of thatisolation.
And I was also a stay at homemom, so I wasn't going to an
(15:45):
office anymore.
I wasn't bouncing it off of mycoat.
You know it's a normal thingfor a coworker to come in in a
bad mood.
I think and say, ah, you know,he drove me crazy today and I'm
mad at him, and if it's the kindof fight that's, that's not a
big deal, then everybody canlaugh at that, right, right, I
wasn't bouncing anything off ofanybody and so I was living in
my head and so by the time I gotout, I didn't know how to
(16:09):
properly tell the story tomyself, to then understand I
should have left.
I knew when it came to mychildren, I knew that story.
I knew they shouldn't beexposed to this, but it took me
a long time to understand tomyself.
You deserve pity for whathappened to you.
Maybe not even until I read,wrote this book Did I understand
that I was.
(16:30):
I was a victim of abuse, whichis crazy.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
It's crazy.
It is and it isn't because Ithink that you, that tumultuous
life that they have, you living,the gaslighting, everything you
don't, you don't understand,understand or you're so confused
that it's difficult to actuallyput these into a definition and
to be able to label it.
(16:55):
For me, I knew in the back ofmy mind what was going on and I
didn't want to admit it out loudbecause I was like, if I say
what's happening to me, then I'ma victim of abuse and I'm too
smart to be a victim of abuse.
That's not what's happening.
(17:17):
And so it took a really longtime before I could actually
finally come to terms with whatwas happening and actually put
that label.
And I think that's a massivestep is for a victim to admit
they're a victim, and that'swhen you make that transition of
victim to survivor, becauseonce you're like, okay, I'm a
(17:40):
victim, I don't want to be avictim anymore.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
I need to get out of this.
Yeah, there's almost animposter syndrome about it.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
And I had said that to my best friend after I wrote
the book.
And then in talking about youknow, am I going to talk to this
advocate, about you knowhelping get this book into the
right hands?
And I said it's weird, like,can I call myself a domestic
violence victim?
(18:10):
And she said leave it to awoman to ask herself have I been
through enough trauma toqualify?
And she said anyone who readsthat book would say of course,
and most people would say thisis much worse than I even knew.
But there's something about usand I think it's kind of what
you've hit on.
I thought I was too smart forthat.
That same quality of thinking Iwas too smart for that allowed
(18:34):
me to absorb it.
I'm too strong.
This isn't going to hurt me.
So maybe if I saw anothergirl's husband treat her that
way, she would be an abusivevictim.
But if it happens to me, I'mstrong.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
So it's not the same, doesn't hit me the same, you
know, yeah, and I mean I would.
I would turn things on myselflike, okay, I can get mouthy
sometimes, so may I probablysaid something that set him off.
You know, yeah, you know I'm astrong, independent woman and
sometimes it's hard for somebodyto take, you know, and yeah,
that's problematic right,because I felt the same.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
I'm an assertive person.
I was raised by a woman who,you know, had feminist values in
the home and I think during allthe time that this was
happening to me, I think I stillwas out in the world saying I'm
a strong woman, you know,strong, independent woman.
And all the while lettingmyself endure these things and
(19:29):
not really feeling any pity formyself.
Just, this is that's my life,I'll get through it and really
just trying to practical,practical ways to just keep
getting through it.
And that's not.
That's not the strong woman Iwas.
I was trying to project.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Right and I have.
So one thing I wanted to goback that imposter syndrome I
was actually talking to a friendabout.
He had come upon my podcast andit's somebody that's from my
hometown and so we weremessaging about stuff and I said
sometimes I feel like I'm afraud for having this podcast on
domestic violence because I'vehad some bad stuff happen to me.
(20:07):
But I've talked to someindividuals that have had some
really, really bad things happento them.
I was never drug out to thewoods and had a shotgun put up
to my head.
That didn't happen to me.
I'm like, so I feel like maybeI'm not the right person to be
doing this.
And he was like do you knowwhat you've told me that you've
(20:27):
been through?
He's like that's abuse, yes,and it's.
It's really weird how we canlike downplay, uh, what's
happened to ourselves.
And I want to take a second.
Like you, you, you were sayingsome conversations.
You've read in some excerptsfrom your book of conversations
that you had with your abuser,and those were actual
(20:48):
conversations.
You didn't elaborate or throwin extra.
You know words fordramatization.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
I watered down because my ex-husband was so
intelligent and so clever.
The way he could spin insultswas it was so destructive and it
was so, so poignant and hurtful.
I actually decided at somepoint I would.
I would write out what wasactually said to me and then I
(21:24):
would come back and change somewords because it was so awful
that I thought it would beirresponsible to put it on the
page.
And what if somebody reads thisand one day they go say it to
someone else?
Because I've never heard?
anyone say some of the things Imean every part of my body has
been insulted and it you know.
(21:45):
Here's the thing If you've gotsomeone intelligent, you don't
have.
It's not just some guy spewingobscenities I mean, there were
obscenities, but he was.
These are very nuanced turns ofphrase and he was taking things
that I maybe suspected wereflaws about me and turning them
into this heightened horribleimagery.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
And yeah, it's actually what you read in the
book is watered down sadly Okay,and I mean I thought it was
very believable, but I wanted tobring that up in case there's
somebody that's never beenexposed to domestic violence
that reads it and is like oh no,this is exaggerated, there's no
way somebody would talk likethat to another individual.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
I wish wish.
I wish it's exaggerated, it's,it's downplayed for sure.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Um, another thing I wanted to bring up.
As far as you know, feelinglike a strong woman is when I
got out of my relationship, Ifelt I, I've got this.
I, you know, I can, I'm livingon my own, I'm doing all of this
.
I'm so strong, and it's like Iformed this little bubble again.
You know, I had my littleabusive bubble when I was in it
(22:52):
and then after, immediatelyafterward, I had another bubble
of where, this is it, I've gotthis.
You know, the hard part's done.
And I was cruising for quite awhile, probably close to a year,
and then all of a sudden Istarted noticing little cracks
in myself where I was.
You know, I'd have like afriend, a male friend, say
(23:14):
something to me and I would justlike lash out like what do you
mean by that?
And he's like whoa, what areyou talking about?
You know, and I realized I'mlike, oh, I'm not okay.
And I realized, oh, I'm notokay, I'm holding a lot of
(23:38):
issues inside of me and I'mholding other people accountable
for something that they weren'timplying or meaning at all,
because I had done brief therapyright after, and then I thought
I was okay, and then so I waslike I have to get back into
therapy again to figure outwhat's going on, and it's so
important to do that.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
That is that's the one piece of advice I would give
to anyone who has left.
You know, a hurtfulrelationship is that you've got
some deprogramming that you'vegot to do and you're right
things will cruise along justfine and then it will.
It will pop up later.
I still have some fight orflight patterns to my arguing.
You know, I have a very calmhusband now but he's disagreeing
(24:15):
with me.
I mean I might jump up, try andjump out of the car at Panera,
at the drive-through, because ofmy fight or flight is so strong
.
Well, I'll just get out hereand walk home.
You know that's crazy and Ihave to work on toning that down
.
And also, when you have beenfighting with someone who goes
immediately to a 10, or you know, with with my ex-husband, I
mean that's the meanest personI've ever met and I spent you
(24:38):
know I spent 12 years arguingwith that person.
I go when, when someonedisagrees with me or they hurt
my feelings, or when I feelsomeone is crossing my
boundaries, I go straight to a10.
And that's not necessary andit's not normal.
And it can be very like you'resaying, it's very off-putting to
people, but it's something thatit's not even just in my
(24:59):
marriage.
I will do it with friends, Iwill do it at work.
I have to.
You know, you have to pullyourself back and learn through
therapy to take a breath andrealize you're not in danger
just because someone has hurtyour feelings.
You know.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Yeah, because your brain makes pathways to try to,
you know, save you or, you know,make life more tolerable.
So you can bury all these.
I don't hate the word triggers.
I do think sometimes peopleoveruse it, you know like, oh my
God, I put whipped cream on mycoffee and that triggered me.
But you know, you have thesetriggers that are buried in
(25:37):
there that you might not even beaware of.
And then, all of a sudden,you're this like massive
reaction to something that makesno sense to anybody.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Yes, I will give you an example in my, because I was
so controlled in my firstmarriage and it was a big deal
if I were to.
I was, you know, I wasn'tallowed to go out and socialize
and, you know, be with myfriends in a lot of control in
that aspect.
So now where I am in a marriage, where that is normal, because
that is normal anywhere, if I amgoing somewhere and my husband
(26:12):
asks me, hey, do you have anyidea what you'll, what time
you'll be home, he wouldprobably be asking
circumstantially.
You know, do I need to getdinner on my own?
Should I go take our kids todinner?
If he just asked me thatquestion, I am immediately.
I just I feel so much heatinside it.
You don't ask me, I don't haveto answer to you what time I'll
be home.
You know it's kind of he'sasking for courtesy and to plan
(26:35):
for the night, but I have areally hard time answering that
question and it's it's.
I have an internal reaction tothat that's not congruent to
what's being asked.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Yeah, and sometimes I mean therapy doesn't
necessarily make that go away,but it at least clues you in as
to.
Okay, let me, let me recentermyself and figure out what's
happening.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
He wasn't trying to control me, he's not you know
(27:17):
telling me not to go at all.
But yeah, I can get that.
I can totally get reacting thatway.
Movies about abuse, especiallyolder movies.
It's a man who starts out, he'spretending in the beginning and
then he is evil and it's veryclear that he's evil and he is
immediately physically abusiveand he's never good anymore,
(27:38):
he's only bad.
And then when she gets out, herlife is better.
None of that is that black andwhite.
It's so much more nuanced thanthat.
Especially getting out, thereare years of work to do, but
also within that it's worth itbecause there are all those
great moments of freedom andfeeling great about yourself and
, oh my gosh, I can set my houseup the way I want to and I
(28:01):
don't have to ask anybody to gospend $50.
Want to and I don't have to askanybody to.
You know, go spend $50.
And those are.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Those are the moments that make it worth it.
While you're working through itAbsolutely, and it it's okay to
feel good and be doing well andthen sit down and cry and it's
normal, I think, to miss thatpast life.
You're not missing the abusebut, like we mentioned a lot of
times, that there there are goodtimes too and you wonder a lot.
(28:34):
I, at least I did.
I wondered well, was it just me?
Like is he going to be okay inthe next relationship?
Is that one going to work out?
And it was just me.
And and why couldn't it haveworked with me and we had such
good times and I miss that.
Or would it just be easier if Ijust went back, Like I'm
struggling here with whateverissues, Like would it be easier
(28:57):
to just go back to him?
So I think all of those arenormal feelings and, like you
mentioned, it's not going to beall roses from here on out.
It is work.
It's not going to be all rosesfrom here on out.
It is work.
And it's not fair.
I'll say that too.
It's not fair.
It's not fair.
It's not fair for you to havefallen in love with somebody who
chose to abuse you and youdidn't let them abuse you.
(29:19):
They chose to abuse you andhere you are trying to heal,
trying to live your life, andyou're going to hit some
roadblocks along the way bumps,walls, it might, you know,
whatever and it's not fair.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
It's not fair and it's okay that it's not fair and
it's okay to sit down and cryabout it and let all of it out,
and I think you feel better andyou move on to the next time.
And then you go another spelluntil something else hits you,
and that's how you know what youneed to work on, right, that's
how you know what you need to go.
I write things down to tell mytherapist.
She's in my head all the time.
I'm always talking to Judy andI'll tell Judy this, you know.
(29:55):
But Judy also calls me on myown BS, right?
So she does that in therapy.
I have her voice in my head nowcalling me on my BS, and she's
like that's how you know thetherapy is working.
You know when my voice is inyour head.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
I liked how you had that interaction with your
therapist about the book.
And she's like have you readthe book?
And you're like, no, I sent it.
And she's like, of course youdid, Of course you did.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
Of course she does.
I like to make what what Judycalls loopholes, where I come in
and I'm like I can't wait totell you this great thing I did,
and she's like that's aloophole to what we were working
on, and what do you mean?
What are you talking about,especially with my
hypervigilance?
I would do that, you know Iwould really come in with these,
(30:46):
these causes that I.
You know I really needed tohelp Ava out with this.
No, you didn't, she's.
You know you should be sittingback.
I do a lot of that in therapybut I'm learning to
self-regulate.
But also, you know it isn'tfair what has happened to us and
it's it's hard that we have togo through this work.
But there are so many silverlinings and one of those silver
linings is just my appreciationfor the peace around me.
(31:07):
I'm so grateful to just behealthy and happy and to have,
say, over my own life and tohave agency over myself.
And I see it in my kids too.
I think my kids have adifferent kind of appreciation
for life around them and adifferent kind of strength than
I see in other kids.
So while I would never havewished on them to go through
(31:28):
these things or myself, I cansee the aspects where it has
also built us to be stronger andmore appreciative.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
Yeah and yes, absolutely.
And all the feelings are fine.
And if you want to be proud ofyourself, if it's a something
little, feelings are fine.
And if you want to be proud ofyourself, if it's a something
little, absolutely celebratethat.
Go get an ice cream sundae orsomething, celebrate whatever.
That's okay.
You want to be pissed off?
Get pissed off.
All of that is fine and it isgreat.
(31:59):
And I love that you mentionedthe kids, because I do think
that they definitely have astrength that, like you
mentioned, you don't necessarilyyou wished they wouldn't have
to have gone through whatever itwas that they went through to
get that strength.
But they are stronger and soare we and so are you and it's,
(32:20):
it's work, but wow, to get, toget to the other side and to.
It's amazing.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
It's worth it.
And you're right, we need tolet ourselves be proud and
celebrate, and you, especiallywith your podcast, should be
really proud of this, becausethis is really it's good work
that you're doing here.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
Thank you and your book, I think, is going to be so
helpful.
It was.
You know.
I'm sure you've heard ofColleen Hoover's book that she
wrote that turned into a movie.
I read that, I don't know,maybe a year to, I don't when it
first came out.
Maybe what I like about I'mgoing to say yours is better.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Did my mom pay you to say that Mom would you call in
as a guest?
Speaker 1 (33:10):
You know, I read both and I I do think that yours,
yours, was better because ityours like, took you into it,
like you were there, you'reliving the moment, reading it,
and hers was it's almost likeyou're you're watching.
I mean it was made into a movie.
I felt like it was likewatching a movie, like okay, you
(33:30):
know, and it's, and grantedit's, there's a lot of fiction
in hers.
I think hers is probably mostlyfiction.
I think she put a tiny bit offactual things that happened
maybe when she was a kid to hermom or something.
But yours, yours, really pullsyou in and I think that I mean
maybe I'm biased because I've,I've lived that, you know that
(33:52):
life, but it gives a goodunderstanding and you even, you
even do sympathize with Alec atsome point.
You know I still do, I still doand and I mean I did and it's
you know I'm reading this andlike, okay.
So you know, and a lot of timeswhen you read a book like this,
you're like there's the goodguy, there's the bad guy, you
hate the bad guy.
(34:13):
It's easy to hate the bad guyand it's easy to love the good
guy and this just, it just showshow real this is because I
don't think I ever hated him.
Yeah, you know, there, I thinkthere were times where I was
like, oh, come on man.
Yeah, you know, and and forsure there are parts where, like
my heart broke for him.
(34:33):
Um, and that's real.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Yeah, and I wish it were that easy.
I wish it were as easy as loveand hate and good and evil.
It's.
It's more complex than that andthat's that's what we have to
work through to get out right.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
And, yeah, you did an amazing job.
I am so proud of the book andto read it.
It's, it's.
You know it has to be a littlebit of like I don't know what
the word is.
I do know what the word is, butit's not coming to me.
But oh, raw, like in in, justvulnerable to.
You're letting people into thispart of your life that is very
(35:11):
difficult to share with evenyour closest.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Yes, especially at first it was very I felt very
vulnerable and I would even bein like these kind of bad moods
certain days.
I'd be very excited one day andoh, you know the, the book.
You know people are on Amazonbuying it and people would give
me good feedback.
And then other days I wouldfeel so vulnerable and I would
say to Scott, I wish I couldjust take it off and not put it
(35:37):
out there anymore.
I wish I had never done this.
You know that is hard and it'sgetting easier and easier.
But I think I needed theperspective of people from the
outside seeing it.
And also, when I wasn't tellingpeople my story, I wasn't being
my authentic self and it'simportant for us.
There are people out there whowould like women like us to just
shut up and, you know, get overit.
(36:00):
You're not being your authenticself.
You can't know me and anyonewho reads this book would
understand that you can't knowme and not know that part of my
story.
That's a huge part of who I amand your story is a huge part of
who you are.
So if we're going to make realfriends and be authentic and
connect, we have to put it outthere.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
Yes, yeah, completely agree, and it's also healing to
talk about it is you put it outthere and it does help you
process through it a little bitbetter.
Well, emma-jane, thank you somuch again for joining me.
This was great.
This three-part series wasamazing, and I really appreciate
(36:39):
you taking the time.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
Thank you.
It's been really great talkingto you and it's actually just
been more therapy and morehealing for me.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
So I really am grateful to have met you and
have this conversation Same.
Thank you again to Emma Jean forjoining me today and thank you
for listening.
I have included the link toEmma Jean's one in three profile
, as well as where to get herbook in the show notes.
I will be back next week withanother episode for you.
(37:06):
Until then, stay strong andwherever you are in your journey
, always remember you are notalone.
Find more information, registeras a guest or leave a review by
going to the websiteonein3podcastcom.
That's the number one.
I-n the number three podcastcom.
Follow One in number one.
I N the number three podcastcom.
(37:27):
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at one in three podcast.
To help me out, please rememberto rate, review and subscribe.
One in three is a 0.5 Pinoyproduction music written and
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