82-Breaking the Narcissistic Cycle: A Therapist's Perspective with Darren Elliott

What happens when the person who says they love you suddenly turns cold, making you question your own reality? Therapist Darren Elliott pulls back the curtain on narcissism, revealing it's not just a label we throw at difficult people, but a profound emotional disconnection that affects everyone to some degree.

After experiencing the bewildering pain of narcissistic relationships firsthand, Elliott found himself on an unexpected journey – from victim to therapist specializing in treating the very people many clinicians avoid. His compassionate approach challenges our understanding of narcissism as he explains "the split" that causes narcissists to operate in two disconnected emotional states. "When they're in that negative energy, they've literally forgotten all the stuff that happened in their positive energy," Elliott reveals, describing how someone can adore you one moment and seem to hate you the next.

Through his innovative "Love Loops" concept and the Narcissism Recovery Project, Elliott offers hope for both those affected by narcissistic relationships and those struggling with narcissistic traits themselves. The conversation takes surprising turns, exploring how traditional masculinity even the pressure to maintain a "perfect family" narrative can contribute to narcissistic patterns. Elliott also shares how his drag persona, Doreen Devine, uses comedy to make these difficult topics accessible, helping people recognize narcissistic behaviors without shame.

Whether you've been called a narcissist, loved someone who displays these traits, or simply want to understand the emotional dynamics at play in difficult relationships, this episode provides eye-opening insights about our human need for connection. As Elliott reminds us, "We are just a bunch of human pack animals, and our natural state is loving each other." Join us for this transformative conversation about healing the disconnection at the heart of narcissism.

Darren's Links: 

https://www.1in3podcast.com/guests/darren-elliott/

https://www.thenarcissismrecoveryproject.com/

1 in 3 is intended for mature audiences. Episodes contain explicit content and may be triggering to some.

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Thank you for listening!

Cover art by Laura Swift Dahlke
Music by Tim Crowe

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi Warriors, welcome to 1 in 3.
I'm your host, ingrid.
Guess what?
Yeah, today we are diving intoanother episode on narcissism.
Honestly, I don't think I couldcover this topic too much, but
hey, if you think I need tochill, you seriously have to let
me know.
This one's a little bitdifferent, though, dare.

(00:24):
I say fun.
I know it doesn't make sense,but hang tight, you'll get it
soon.
Today I'm joined by DarrenElliott, and he shares his
unique take on narcissism.
Let's get into it, hi, darren.
Thank you for joining me today.
This is one of my favoritetopics to discuss, not one of my

(00:46):
favorite things to haveexperienced, but I'm glad you
have decided to come on today.

Speaker 2 (00:52):
Thank you, Ingrid.
I think we're going to make anunusual episode, making
narcissism actually fun.
It's not really a fun topic,but it's such a passion and
there's so much to learn from,and it is really something that
impacts us all, as you know.

Speaker 1 (01:06):
Yeah, definitely.
So before we jump into thewhole guts of the conversation,
could you give a background onyourself?

Speaker 2 (01:15):
Yeah, sure, so I am, and in fact, while I'm giving my
background, if I can go alittle longer, people can
identify with what's happeningthere too.
You know I grew up in a lovelyChristian family and our family
story was we were a perfect,happy Christian family, all

(01:35):
happy and healthy and great,Until one day my brother, who
was 13 when I was 12,accidentally shot himself in the
head with a gun, and it was anaccident.
We're diving, deep diving.

Speaker 1 (01:52):
Yeah, we're just going to jump right on in.

Speaker 2 (01:56):
And then thereafter the family story changed to
being we were the perfect, happyfamily.
And then that happened to Markand then everything went off the
rails.
Well, I remember being adepressed kid before my brother
accidentally shot himself in thehead.
I remember him being an angrykid before that happened.
I don't think he did it onpurpose.
I do think he did it byaccident.

(02:20):
But the perfect family story issomething that's extremely
common in narcissistic families,where there's a a family
narrative and we're all sort offighting to keep that narrative
alive and we don't even realizewe're doing it.
So narcissism tends to beinvisible if you're living in
the middle of it and mybackground, for me, it was
invisible until I wasmiddle-aged and I was being
abused for the last time in myrelationships and like, oh my,

(02:43):
what has just happened?
It was the end of arelationship that had just
destroyed me, and the end of therelationship looked like an off
switch because we were likeloving and romantic and
wonderful.
And then we had a conversationand then we were done.
We lived together, we haddreams together.
It was like, but there was atalk about do you want to buy a

(03:05):
house in this city?
And I was like no, not really,and it wasn't even a heated
discussion, it was just like andthen the next day I overhear
that he is and we're done.
And it was just like we werejust suddenly done.
It was not hard for them to gofrom 100 to zero.
It devastated me.
I didn't understand what washappening.

(03:26):
It ripped my guts out.
I didn't have an off switch.
I didn't understand at all whatwas happening.
But narcissism tends to have asplit.
But the point is I grew up in afamily system.
I did not recognize it, I didnot see it until mid-40s when
this happened.
And then the pain of it and thetherapist not understanding

(03:51):
what was happening.
Again and again, and again.
And in my own family we allended up in therapy.
But the therapist didn't help.
They didn't understand what washappening.
This was really, really notunderstood 10 years ago and it's
just sort of understood now.
So I ended up in therapy school,just to save myself, could you

(04:12):
say.
Once I recognized that what Iwas dealing with was
narcissistic abuse, I stilldidn't see it in my own family
system.
I just recognized it happenedto me in my relationship.
So I started this five-yearpsychotherapy program and when
we got to the point that wecould work with clients.
I started working withnarcissists because it was my

(04:33):
passion and as soon as I couldget clients on Psychology.
Today, I started working withnarcissistic clients because
they couldn't find anyone towork with them, or even willing
to work with them, and I waslike well, I'm a student
therapist, let's see what we cando.
They were willing to do that.
They're almost never aware, asyou know.

Speaker 1 (04:50):
So that's the thing.

Speaker 2 (04:54):
It only happens when they're about to lose everything
.
So they have a great wife andthey have beautiful kids and
they have such a great life, butnone of their family like them.
Their wife has given them thelast heave-ho therapy or we're
done, and then they come in fortherapy and usually the partners
found me, not them.

Speaker 1 (05:14):
That makes sense and it really is.

Speaker 2 (05:16):
They've been pushed and, pushed, and pushed and they
come in thinking, well,apparently she thinks
something's wrong with me and ifI'm not here with you I have to
leave.
So we start there.
Some people come in thinkingthey're a narcissist and they're
not.
Couples come in not knowingthat one of them is.

(05:38):
That happens too.
I'm watching the volley and Iwas like, oh dear, oh dear.
I watched the ball go over andthen the narcissist twists the
ball and then serves it back andit looks like it's not even the
same ball.
And then the not-narcissistserves it back and they twist it
again and send it back and I'mlike, okay, now, traditional

(06:01):
therapy does not work for this.
It has not been successfulbecause traditional therapy is
holding everything in neutrality.
Oh, a bunch ofmiscommunications.
Oh, it's just amisunderstanding.
They often keep them togetherand keep the abuse going because

(06:22):
the narcissist is sort ofplaying the same game with them
that they're playing with theirpartner.
When I start working withsomeone who's suffering from
narcissism, the first thing Ineed to do is guess what's
happening inside for them.
So I start predicting.
When I said that, did you feellike this?

Speaker 1 (06:33):
I did Right.
How do you do that?
Okay, yeah, you got me hooked.
I'm in for this.

Speaker 2 (06:43):
Because they have a split, and that's what's going
so very wrong.
And when I mean a split, well,firstly, let's get into
narcissism real quick, becauseit's a word that's thrown around
like candy and it's misused asan insult mostly.

Speaker 1 (06:57):
Yes, you're right.

Speaker 2 (06:58):
Firstly, we all have narcissism.
So it's not something we haveor don't have, it's something we
all do have.
So it's not something we haveor don't have, it's something we
all do have.
But secondly, it's a processthat Freud was using the term
narcissism to describe childhoodprocesses, childish processes,
in fact, that we're meant togrow out of.
And the thing is so duringchildhood, where thousands of

(07:20):
neuropathways are being createdevery single day and we're
getting imprinted.
By the way, you know, we comeout just with our little eyes
and nose and ears and all weknow is what's going on around
us.
And the people in our livesform the relationship patterns
that we recognize as familiarand normal.
If those relationship patternsare mom's a narcissist and dad's
an empath, or dad's anarcissist, those are going to

(07:40):
be normal for us.
Whatever it is that we'regrowing up with is normal for us
.
Firstly so and you know thetrain just went off the rails
there- I was with you.
Because it goes so many places.
No, but I literally forgotwhere that train was coming from
.
Just take me back a step.

Speaker 1 (07:57):
So we're talking about what is narcissism?

Speaker 2 (07:59):
Oh, right, yeah, Okay , we're talking about the split,
and then I went off.
There's so many differentdetails because every different
little topic could be a chapterby itself, and my ADHD.
It sometimes takes me to thenext step and forgets what the
step before was, and then Iforget oh, we were talking about
this because I can go down awhole new path.

(08:20):
So what narcissism is and isn't.
Well, the main problem ofnarcissism is the things haven't
grown up.
If you're not playing soccer,you don't get good at soccer.
If you're not being emotionallyattuned to, if you're avoiding
your emotional experiences,you're not going to get
emotionally mature either.
You don't become emotionallymature by not feeling your

(08:41):
emotions.
Emotion is a capacity, and ourcapacity to feel takes work, and
many men, specifically, havebeen taught not to feel, and
that in itself causes narcissism, because if we learn not to
feel, we also learn not to feelwith others.
So if you have a partner whonever goes to sadness, they also

(09:03):
don't go to your sadness, whichmeans they don't have empathy
for sadness.
That's the first thing that'sgoing wrong, because they don't
go to sadness.
So how do they know how youfeel?
They don't, and then youliterally feel misunderstood
because you are literallymisunderstood.
They do not go to thoseemotions, so they absolutely do
not understand what yourexperience is.

(09:23):
And then they end up doingreally hurtful things and they
don't acknowledge and they don'trecognize often how hurtful it
is because they don't letthemselves feel those things.
And often this is tied to toxicpositivity.
It's often tied to let's justbe cheerful, let's just be happy
.
Oh, let's look at the brightside and avoid feeling this and

(09:45):
avoid feeling that we can'tavoid our feelings.
It ends up sort of accumulatingbecause we experience our
emotions as energy and one ofthe myths that we're dealing
with right now.
Men and women both have nervoussystems.
That shouldn't come as asurprise to anyone?

Speaker 1 (10:00):
No, it should not.

Speaker 2 (10:02):
And they work pretty much the same.
In fact, there's highlysensitive men and there's highly
sensitive women.
But culturally, women are sortof encouraged to develop
emotionally, they're encouragedto be vulnerable, they're
encouraged to connect with eachother in deeper ways and that
causes them to grow upemotionally.

(10:23):
They're dealing with theiremotions, they're dealing with
their friends' emotions and wemature that way.
Men traditionally, are beingtold buck up and be a man.
And if they're crying they'relike oh, stop crying, that's
nothing, be a man.
And so then they slowly shutdown and over time they shut
down.
But we're not born shut down.

(10:46):
But a big part of what's gonewrong in a lot of countries and
it's certainly true for the USis men came back from war
traumatized and dads andgranddads and partners came back
from war absolutely traumatizedand we had no idea what that
meant.

(11:06):
So they come back from war andthen they're expected to be
happy.
They're like oh, aren't youhappy to be home?
They're not happy to be home.
They actually feel trauma,horrible, but they're trying to.
No, I'm so happy, I'm so happyto be here.
And they learned to ignore thishuge bubble of trauma by
shutting down and by beingstrong all the time.
And if they have really, reallystrong ideals, they might be

(11:29):
able to hold it together.
But so many became alcoholic andso many and they also just
taught the next generation notto feel their emotions because
they couldn't themselves andthey became abusive partners
usually and the wife would belike, oh, he wasn't like this
before the war, poor guy.
So they accept the abuse.
It's like, yeah, he doesn'tmean it, he wasn't like this

(11:50):
before.
This is just the war.
It became normalized in so manyfamilies and kids became
desensitized in so many familiesand that generation really
created the macho generation.
If you can't feel, and thatgeneration really created the
macho generation.
If you can't feel, it's like abillionaire who has no empathy,

(12:12):
considering empathy a weaknessbecause it's not something they
have themselves.
Empathy is a strength, right.
Empathy is a higher levelemotional skill that not
everyone gets to, because ifyou're not feeling those
feelings, like I said, you'renot feeling them with others and
you don't have empathy.
Empathy is not feeling thosefeelings like I said, you're not
feeling them with others andyou don't have empathy.
Empathy is not feeling sorryfor someone, it's feeling with
someone.

Speaker 1 (12:30):
And.

Speaker 2 (12:30):
I can give a real clear example of empathy.
I don't want to throw under thebus, but it was just such a
clear one.
There's a dog here sitting withme.
There's Jake, oh you can barelysee him.

Speaker 1 (12:44):
Jake.

Speaker 2 (12:45):
There's Jake, we sitting with me, and there's
Jake.
Oh, you can barely see him,jake.
There's Jake.
We lost Jake's daughter lastyear, so it was a really
horrible thing, and she wasseven.
It was unexpected.
She was well Saturday.
She was gone Monday.
We were crying, we were upset,we were heartbroken.
We call my partner's mother.
She sees us crying on the phoneImmediately.

(13:07):
She's crying.
That's what empathy looks like.
Our mirror neurons cause us tofeel the same way the other
person's feeling and then theyfeel understood by us because
we're literally feeling withthem and we evolved to do this.
But people have learned not todo this and if you're not doing
this, then you're lacking thatdeep connection.
So we made another phone callright after talking to their

(13:30):
mother and the next phone callwe made they looked and they saw
us and they're like, oh, what'sgoing on?
It's like lady died.
We're crying.
Oh, that's too bad.
The weather here is reallyreally hot.
Oh, my goodness.
Immediately changed the subject,no feeling with, and then

(13:50):
eventually came back to it.
It's like, well, that's a shame, lady died, I guess it was her
time, and then that was it and Iwas like so minimize and not
feel with and try to fix areusually what someone's going to
do if they're not feeling withothers.
And you don't have to be anarcissist to not feel with
others.
Trauma causes us to not feelwith others, but narcissists

(14:15):
also do not feel with others.
That is what's going wrong,right?
So that's what the twoprocesses look like, and they
don't realize they're doing it.
They think they're there foryou if they say the thing Like I

(14:37):
don't know, I was so supportive, but they literally never go to
any of those emotions with you.
And a lot of the work ofnarcissism, firstly, is getting
in their inner circle becausethere's no one there, and really
that's the crux of narcissismtoo, is there's no one they
fully trust.
So there's always a cloak ofeven my partner I don't totally
let into my secret experience.

(14:57):
There's things I hide from mypartner, there's things I hide
from, and that's what narcissismlooks like.
It lives in shame, and to workwith narcissism we actually need
to bring it into the light.
It needs to just be out in theopen.
So if someone comes in and theyhave a family, lucky them.
And it's the only reason theycome in To meet someone who's

(15:17):
struggling with narcissism,who's not in a relationship.
They just don't have themotivation for change.
They need to have somethingthey're going to lose.
The whole family needs to beinvolved in it because they all
need to learn what narcissistthings look like.
And then they all becomeagainst the narcissism, not
against the person.
So it just becomes what weaccept can shift and what we

(15:39):
fight ends up getting stuck.
And what people usually do withnarcissism is try not to be
narcissistic, just try not to be, try not to be.
It's like try not to be anxious, don't be anxious, don't be
depressed.
It doesn't work for any ofthose things.
We need to be able to feelthrough what we're experiencing
with our nervous systems, andthat's so much of the work.

(16:01):
So they learn to feel, but theyhave trauma work at the
beginning because there's toomuch they've been avoiding for
too long and everything feelsdangerous.
So the work is widening thatwindow of tolerance.
They come in with this range ofemotion where they're just
feeling sort of cheerful andhappy and okay, and then they're

(16:22):
not feeling up here and they'renot feeling down here.
And that's what people alsomisunderstand and need to
understand too.
When you are desensitizingyourself to painful emotions, to
fear, to uncomfortableness, todisappointment, to anger, even
to sadness, to grief.
You are desensitizing yournervous system also to pleasure,

(16:43):
to joy.
You can't just choose whichthings.
You're desensitizing yournervous system also to pleasure,
to joy.
You can't just choose whichthings you're desensitizing to.
You're turning down the volumeon everything when you do that,
and that's what people don'trealize and that's part of toxic
positivity.
You're turning down the volumeand then you never quite feel
satisfied either.
So instead of feeling actualjoy, they're chasing dopamine,

(17:04):
chasing dopamine, chasingdopamine.
The biggest trip, the bestdinner, the best this, the best,
this, going over here, goingover there, I mean more likely
to have affairs chasing thedopamine.
It's common in society as well,right, because we've been
taught to chase dopamine, doomscrolling on our phones, chasing
dopamine.
We go from device to device todevice.

(17:25):
So many people.
If you're avoiding thoseemotions, you are not fully
living and you will feel numb.
And the less you allow yourfeel, the more numb you will
feel, because you're literallyavoiding your nervous system.
So of course you feel numb.
You're not letting yourselffeel things, but we don't seem
to realize that we can't justnot feel the negatives, we need

(17:46):
to be able to feel the negative.
As an example, I started singingtwo years ago.
Just a couple of years ago.
I was a singer when I wasyounger.
It was my joy, it really was mybiggest joy.
But it wasn't something my dadcould do, so he didn't like it

(18:06):
and he wanted me to be anengineer.
But all my teachers were likeyour voice is a gift, you have
to be a singer.
But to force me intoengineering, he shamed me for
singing again and again andagain and again.
So I would sing at church andhe'd be saying, oh, wasn't
Darren great, but didn't he do agreat job?

(18:28):
And then around the corner hewould immediately make me feel
like garbage, like oh, youweren't very good.
I was just being supportive andthey were just being kind.
Now you're not all that.
Stop being a show-off.
No one likes a show-off.
Don't make people listen to you.
And he did it enough times thatI literally had a shame
response when I sang and I feltguilty and I felt like I was
making people listen to me andno one likes a show-off.

(18:49):
Like those paradoxical ideasStopped me singing.
Eventually I just gave it upand I didn't bring it up again
until the old guy died, andduring pandemic as well.
So I started singing.
I started singing at home andeventually I wanted to sing in
front of others and so I startedsinging live on Facebook, live

(19:12):
on Instagram, sitting at thepiano singing, and then you
press the button going live, andall of a sudden the heart rate
goes up and all of a sudden Ifeel a flush.
It's hard to breathe, my handsare awkward on the piano, but
when I say, oh my gosh, you guys, I turn this on and now I'm
feeling so anxious, my heartrate's going really fast.
And then, as I include myself,literally even though they're

(19:35):
not there, I calm down and nowI'm not anxious anymore.
We need to be able toacknowledge what it is we're
feeling.
If I sit there saying, don'tfeel anxious, don't feel anxious
, I'm going to be anxious.
We need to express it Honestly.
We evolved as human beings.
We are pack animals and weforget that we're pack animals.
We live so separately today.

(19:55):
We're not meant to live soseparately.
We're meant to lean on eachother and help each other,
process emotions together andall the things.
And when you don't do that, youput yourself on a desert island
.
So a lot of narcissists arejust too alone and they're on a
desert island and they losereality and they gaslight
themselves and they gaslight youand they over-identify with

(20:17):
their thoughts because they'renot checking them out, they're
just believing them.
Our thoughts are just creativeprocesses in our mind.
If we're not checking them outwith others, eventually they're
going to go away from realityand then they end up creating
their own narrative, and theirown narrative is this and then
they try to pull you into theirnarrative instead of actually
joining you in reality, and theyhave alternate facts,

(20:38):
alternative facts.
That horrible phrase that gotcoined.

Speaker 1 (20:44):
Well, do they do that to be mean or like why do they
do that?

Speaker 2 (20:52):
It's complicated because there's different
reasons why, but they alsogaslight themselves and believe
themselves Okay.

Speaker 1 (20:58):
So they could believe their own lies.

Speaker 2 (21:05):
There's childish processes that did not grow up,
and one of them is the inabilityto keep two ideas true at the
same time, and that's part ofwhat goes wrong in relationships
.
It's part of why they becomeabusive.
Quite often it's because whenI'm mad at you, I forget that
you're the person who loves meand that I love you, and I'm
just in my anger.
And if I'm just in my anger, Ilose my compassion, I lose my

(21:29):
grace and I might say reallymean things or do something
really mean and vindictive.
Or I've learned that it's notokay, so I'm passive-aggressive
and I'm pretending to be happy,but really I'm plotting against
you.
Or really I'm doing somethinglike taking your keys and hiding
it in a weird place, just so Iknow it's going to cause you
problems later, like littlevindictive, annoying things,

(21:52):
because they've gotten triggeredinto this alternate state where
they literally forget we're onthe same team and so those two
states are separate.
That's the problem, and thework is integrating them over
time, because first they let meinto their inner circle and then
we're working, and then I'm onboth sides of the split with

(22:12):
them, and as I'm going back andforth with them, they're coming
to know this version ofthemselves more.
This version they get triggeredinto and it's just automatic
and it just takes over.
It's just a trauma energy,because when we get triggered
into and it's just automatic andit just takes over, it's just a
trauma energy.
Because when we get triggeredby trauma energy, it turns off
big parts of our brain and it'swhat's going wrong today as well

(22:33):
.
Honestly, in society, when weare afraid that part of our
brain turns off, the empathypart, the most evolved parts of
us, turn off and we are in fightand flight mode.
When we're in fight and flightmode, we are not empathic and we
are watching populations beingpushed into fight and flight
mode, causing them to turn offtheir empathy for each other,

(22:57):
and we're watching it in realtime, in big scale, and we're
watching it being promoted bybillionaires who want division
Truly truly, because you canconquer people who are divided,
you can bully a population whenthey are divided, and all this
division is just fake division.
It's just absolutely fakedivision.
Americans are just a bunch ofAmericans first, but they've

(23:20):
been taught to fear each otherand we're watching the alternate
reality and a narcissist reallydoes have a lack of trust for
others.
They think you're lying, so Imight as well lie first.
Or you're cheating, so I mightas well cheat first, or you're
going to do this, so I'm goingto do it first.
As the most obvious example inthe world, because we're all

(23:43):
watching it every day if we turnon a TV.
Trump really did think all thecountries were taking advantage
of us.
He really did believe thatCanada's taking advantage of us.
We need to punish them becauseif they weren't taking advantage
of us, we would be rich andhappy right now, and we're not.
So there's something wrong.
But he believes that and hedoesn't understand economics

(24:04):
because he doesn't allow inreality that one lives in about
85% his own reality.
You know, a narcissist tends tohave a certain amount of
reality that they share and acertain amount of reality that's
theirs.
I find most of them are morelike 50, but he really is like
15% with us and 85% in his owncreative narrative, and that

(24:25):
justifies anything right.
It justifies anything Well.

Speaker 1 (24:28):
So I have a question.

Speaker 2 (24:31):
See, I just go all over the place.

Speaker 1 (24:34):
So for you to be treating a narcissist who has,
say, like 15, 85, 85, with truereality in their own reality, do
you just call them out on that,or and are they receptive to
you?
I mean, I know like if it was,their partner probably would not
be receptive, but since they'rethere for treatment, yeah it's

(25:01):
you.

Speaker 2 (25:01):
This is this is a new , interesting thing that's
coming up for me.
Ai is not going away, so wemight as well not pretend it's
not here and not use it.
I have been actually havingsuccess with narcissists using
AI.
Really, because that lack oftrust, they do develop a trust
for me.
I really am not judging.
I am not here to judge.

(25:22):
I'm not judging them as bad,I'm not judging them as good.
I'm really just they're havinga human experience, and if their
human experience is hurtingothers, I want to help them work
on that, but I'm not judgingthem.
They are the way they arebecause they're a human and all
the things that happened intheir life caused them to be how
they are right now.
And if you go to prisons,there's so much trauma.

(25:46):
There's so much trauma thatcauses someone to defend
themselves and to feel thatanger and such, so they really
don't feel judged.
So we do create a differentkind of connection than they've
had with anyone else.
The work is, though, havingthem expand that connection to
others, and that's where it goeswrong with a lot of therapy,
because the narcissistic peoplein my family they learn to be

(26:10):
close to their therapist.
They tell their therapist alltheir problems literally no one
else knows.
Well, they're still living intheir narcissism with everybody
else except their therapist.
We need to teach them to learnvulnerability with more than
just us and to have themexploring in the world with
developing more trusting, morehonest processes.
And that's where I came up withthe concept of loops, because

(26:35):
it's easier to love someonewho's loving us back, for
example, and if someone doesn'thave any trust for humans, they
often can learn trust for ananimal because animals are so.
They're so unconditional.
You know that dog loves you, itjust loves you, and even you're
mean to that dog and then heloves you again Because, just
like a narcissist, a dog lacksobject constancy and he looks at

(26:59):
you and he feels love and heforgets that you were so mean
yesterday.
Because they're likethree-year-olds, they do not
have the full picture.
So, practicing with someone wholoves you back, really easily
they learn that love feels goodin their own body Because for
some reason they think when Ilove someone, I'm giving
something away.
No, no, no, love feels greatinside you.

(27:21):
You get to feel the feeling oflove inside you and if you're
not loving people, you'remissing out on all those
feelings of love in your ownbody.
That's one of the things thatgets them.
They realize they're missingout on things.
They don't want to miss out onthings and they want to have
their best relationships, don'tthey?
Of course they do.
It's like, well, there's onlyone way to have your best
relationships.

(27:42):
There's no other way you can doit.
You can be on your deathbed andpeople can be there because
they have to be, because you'regiving them the house and
because you did this and didthat, so they felt cared for by
you, because how you made themfeel was special.
That is what a true, deeprelationship looks like and

(28:06):
that's what we need to aim for.
So when I work with someonewho's narcissistic, they need to
be willing to have love andkindness as goal behavior
firstly, but they're also movingtowards that recognizing, oh,
how other people feel with mereally matters.
So I shouldn't just do whateverI want and manipulate to get
always what I want.
That lack of empathy right hasthem thinking of themselves too

(28:27):
much, and that's a naturaltrauma response too.

Speaker 1 (28:30):
Yeah, so, okay.
So now I'm, I guess, theconfusing part is when all of.
It's the confusing part.
But if so, you're in arelationship with a narcissist
and you love them and you arebeing kind and you're giving
them all of that.
Why do they then seem to turnon you?

Speaker 2 (28:57):
Because all the things they avoid become a
charged energy that builds upand they're also avoiding shame.
So they turn on you, becausewhen they have a feeling that's
uncomfortable, they think it'syour fault.
So if they walk in the room andyou look at them and they

(29:18):
suddenly feel guilty or theyfeel sad, they feel like not
cherished in some kind of wayand it feels like a.
I can tell you, in therelationship that ended my
ability to not see narcissism.
This is what was happening.
I wasn't allowed to have a moodof any other kind except
admiration Cause if they camehome and I didn't look at them

(29:40):
like, yay, you're home.
Because if they came home and Ididn't look at them like, yeah,
you're home, anything else wasnot okay.
So, over the top, yeah, and Iwas okay with that.
I grew up.
That was normal for me.
Yeah, sure, you come in, youfawn over them, yeah, you're
home.
And I felt it.
Anyway.
I was happy they're home and Ilove them and I feel big
feelings.
But if I had a bad day oh Godhelp me it's because I wasn't

(30:05):
allowed to be in a grumpy moodLike what's wrong with you?
Like nothing.
My mom's dog died.
It's been in my life for 20years, like, yeah, but like,
why'd you look at me like that?
Like like what you know whatyou did?
You looked at me like, and likewhat you know what you did.
You looked at me like what?
And then all of a sudden you'rein some kind of fight and
they're yelling at you and it'slike what?

(30:25):
And it's because my moodimpacted their mood.
They can co-regulate with thehappy things because they're not
defending from them, so theykind of expect you to keep them
in a good mood.
And that's where the emotionalmanipulation happens.
And it's so invisible becausewe don't really notice that
we're managing their mood,especially if we've learned to

(30:47):
do it.
When we're doing things theylike, they'll be in a cheerful
mood and they'll be treating usnice and they'll be giving us
approval.
But if we're doing things theydon't like, they'll be devaluing
us, either outright or in theirhead.
And they might be cold, theymight be mean, they might be,
but it truly is.
We're making them feel good.
They're on our team.

(31:08):
We're making them not feel good.
I hate you.
It's that lack of objectconstancy that they'd never get
past, they'd never grow out of,and it's that split.
You're dealing with that split.
When you're doing things I like, I love you.
When you're not doing thingsthat you like, they devalue, in
fact, and in those moments theymay forget all the things they
love about you and they're justremembering all the things they

(31:29):
don't like because their twoenergies are so separate.
And now they're like oh, youalways do this and remember that
time 10 years ago, when youmade me wait for blah, blah,
blah, blah.
They're just remembering allthose things because our
feelings tend to live in thatenergy.
We experience our emotions asenergy, as positive energy and
negative energy, and whenthey're in that negative energy,

(31:51):
they've literally forgotten allthis stuff that happened in
their positive energy thatthey've joined you for and they
demand you to be that personthey can join.
So if I wasn't able to makethem feel cheerful, I was being
accused of being abusive and Iknew myself not to be abusive
and it always was like what ishe talking about?
Things that aren't true don'thurt as much, but the twisting

(32:15):
and the twisting and thetwisting and the twisting.
Over time, you get blamed forthings a lot and there's
projection and they think you'refeeling the way.
Over time, you get blamed forthings a lot and there's
projection and they think you'refeeling the way they feel.
And that's something I dealwith now.
When a certain someone, whenthey're feeling upset they
always accuse me of being upset.
When they're feeling angry,it's like you're so angry and

(32:36):
I'm like literally neutral andthen they won't believe me.
They're telling me no, you'renot, you're so angry.
I can tell you're angry, it'slike, no, you're angry, you are
angry.
It's really hard for them to beable to.
If it's not a feeling that theyidentify with, they will be
pointing to you as the cause ofwhy they're feeling angry.

(32:58):
And it must be because you'reso angry that they're kind of
feeling this and they believe it.
They really do believe it, andthey will treat you in the way
they think you are.
I mean, if they think you'rebeing mean, they're going to be
mean, and if they think you'rebeing angry, they'll probably be
angry.
All that projection, but theturning on you, it really's the

(33:21):
two energies that they turn whenthey're in their negative
energy really.

Speaker 1 (33:25):
And then so I know that you're more on the side of
helping narcissists recover.
Is that the right word?
I don't know if that's theright term.

Speaker 2 (33:34):
Well, yeah, I haven't heard it used by anyone else,
but I call my clients recoveringnarcissists because when
they're in recovery and we'redealing with everything out in
the open and they're dealingwith their narcissism, as it
happens they're in recovery andthey're not actively acting out
their narcissism, so instead ofacting on it, they're sharing it
and talking about it andstarting to understand

(33:56):
themselves.
They have to grow upemotionally, so it's not a
comfortable thing to do.
They're usually very proudpeople to realize you're an
emotional child.
It's hard for them to come tograsp with.
Right right, but that's whatwe're doing.

Speaker 1 (34:10):
And oh, the train just left again Shoot, okay, I'm
going to get you on anothertrain quick then, while that
one's out, so I know that you'reworking more with them.
Oh right, right.
What would your recommendationbe like?
You wouldn't recommend somebodystay in this relationship and
try to adjust their behavior tokeep that individual at bay.

(34:35):
Like what?
Yeah, what do they do, becausethat I mean then you get
destroyed in that process.

Speaker 2 (34:42):
So why I call them a recovering narcissist is because
when they're not recovering,they are a narcissist again.
So they need to be in recovery.
Just like an alcoholic needs tobe in recovery, not reaching
for the alcohol, having asupport system in place so that
there's enough support.
They don't need to reach forthe alcohol.
A recovering narcissist needsto have the support in place

(35:03):
that they're continuing topractice positive relationship
skills.
And that's why I call it thelove loops, because the more you
love me, the more I love you.
The more you love me, the moreI love you.
And they get into thesepatterns that they like and it's
easier to keep it going.
And these are patterns theynever felt before because they
weren't going to any of thoseemotions.
So they're missing out on theemotions up here and the

(35:24):
emotions down here.
So we're widening their abilityto feel emotion, which feels
dangerous to them.
So we need to'm excited to seeyou.
We create these things togetherand I and they can have little
experiments.
I walk through my, I live in acondo building on the and so

(35:49):
when I leave there's there's aconcierge person in the lobby.
I like the concierge people, Ilike saying hello to them.
I want to know how their day'sgoing.
They're part of my little world.
So when I walk up to concierge,there's a smile, there's a
friendliness.
Some people think the conciergeare horrible, but they only go
when they have problems andthey're angry.

(36:10):
So they walk up to concierge,like this isn't working.
And then they meet theconcierge version.
That's like okay, let me seewhatever version they get to
meet.
Because we co-create ourrelationships and that's one
thing that the narcissistdoesn't realize.
You are co-creating how peopleare with you and we're all doing
that.
So they can have theseexperiments go to the grocery

(36:32):
store and, instead of judgingthe person at the cash register
and looking at them for faults,do the opposite.
Look for the things that aregood about that person, because
they eventually learn that itfeels so much better to live in
the positive.
When you look for the good inothers, it brings out the good
in others, and when you look forthe bad in others, it actually

(36:53):
brings out bad in others, andthat's part of what goes wrong
when they're always accusing youof being creepy, angry and
whatever.
So they do, they go in and theynotice the good things about
the person in front of them andthey might even say something
nice, and then they notice oh,it's quite different when I do
this.
So they start to learn thatthey're co-creating these
relationships and so the morethey're getting vulnerable and

(37:17):
the more they're dealing withtheir deeper feelings, the more
they're able to feel on bothsides.
And so we're.
But it needs, but it needs, itneeds, it needs to create.
They need to create those loopsand have a few trusting loops.
That there's, you know.
So I'm not the only person intheir inner circle and so if I
go away, they end up crashingagain.
They need to have some peoplein their inner circle and they

(37:38):
need to develop trust, becausetrust is what's lacking right.
It's and circle, and they needto develop trust because trust
is what's lacking right, andthey need to be open about
what's happening for them.
You know, the people in theirimmediate path need to
understand the emotionalprocesses that they're dealing
with.
Actually, because it's sohurtful it can be, so hurtful it
is, and you can't love someoneto being better.
I don't want to make someonethink, and you can just love

(37:59):
them and now they'll be fine.

Speaker 1 (38:00):
No, they'll still be abusive, don't, don't don't try
to love them to be better.
Really.
I mean, I love what you'resaying, I just really I don't
want someone to interpret thisas okay, I can fix them If I do
this, I can.

Speaker 2 (38:12):
Yeah, it is a relational disorder though.
So relational disorder mean whothey are with others is the
disorder.
So who they are with others iswhere the work is, and I
practice relational therapy.
So it means we're having a realrelationship and we're working
on their relationship skillstogether.
So if they don't have lovedones in their life, there's not

(38:33):
really any hope for them unlessthey're willing to create
relationships, because it onlyheals in relationship.
And too many narcissists go andlearn to be strong alone in
therapy and then they're just astrong, happy, alone narcissist
who you know, unaware of theirnegative impacts around them,
and think they're fabulousbecause they're on the board of
deacons and because they servesoup at the soup kitchen.

(38:54):
And what a wonderful person Iam.
A narcissist doesn't have thefeeling that they're good, so
they often end up looking forcheck marks to prove that
they're good.
And they're overrepresented inmedicine, for one, because
they're proving how smart theyare and they often want to take
care of others.
And doctors are quite respectedand they want to be respected,
so they want to be the topdoctor.

(39:15):
So there's quite a few of that.
And narcissism doesn't have tobe bad.
We need people with narcissismto a degree.
When it comes to some of thetraits.
We need people who are happy tohave the microphone and like
the validation of applause,that's good, it's not hurting
anyone.
But narcissists, they'readdicted to validation.

(39:36):
You have to validate, validate,validate, validate.
And if you're not validating,what's wrong with you?
Like they need too muchvalidation.
Their sense of self is so weak.
They need a constant validationand if you give them negative
validation, no-transcript.

(40:00):
What goes wrong in relationshipstoo is because they cannot take
in the things that they dowrong, they defend against it.
The partner's trying to say,every time I do this, this
happens, and they're alreadydefending like, oh yeah, but
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah.
It's like you're not taking inanything that they're saying.
They don't know, they're not,they're arguing before the
information even gets there.

(40:22):
Part of what's gone wrong andthis is another controversial
topic opening the door, I wastaught to have blind faith.
When you're taught to have blindfaith and to just listen
without questioning and just toaccept without questioning, and

(40:43):
then you're taught the media islying to you and then you're
taught science is lying to you,you leave reality right and
people have been gaslit out ofreality, Just like a narcissist
leaves reality, there's been acultural departure from reality
as well, A doubling down againstthe actual information for the

(41:03):
narrative that I have.
That's exactly what anarcissist does.
They have their narrative andthey're trying to pull you into
their narrative and they willgaslight you into their
narrative, speaking things thataren't true as if they are true
and repeating it enough timesthat it sort of sounds true or
you just get used to hearing it.
I had a question.

Speaker 1 (41:22):
I just left my brain.
I had a question, I just leftmy brain.
Okay, so what about like thenarcissist, when they are like
mean to their partner, but thento everybody else they're the
most amazing person and it makesthat partner question their
reality even more and questionlike well, is it just me?
I'm being told it's me, is itme?

Speaker 2 (41:44):
That is so hard.
The thing is, once you see thatother side of themselves.
So once you're privy to thefact that there is a mean side,
then you're going to see it alot more, because they're not
going to hide it as much andthey're going to think you
deserve it, and because theyactually think everyone else is
playing the same game of fakethat they are.

(42:06):
They think, oh yeah, we're alljust pretending to be good.
Oh yeah, we're all pretendingto be kind.
Oh yeah, we're all pretendingto be.
It's like no, I actually feelkindness, like I actually want
to help this person.
It makes me feel good to helpthis person.
It's like, no, no, I actuallyfind this person interesting.
I'm not pretending, but theythink we're all pretending.

(42:30):
So they have this pretend thingand they join us in our
positive energies so they'reable to feel it with us.
But then they leave and they'rein this yucky, dirty energy and
they end up showing it to theirintimate partner because they
just ended up not being able to,not to.
But then they punish you for it, but no one else can see it.
No one else can see it.
It's so hard.
It's happening to me as well,because the friends all know

(42:52):
this version and I know this andthis version and they just
don't get that there's thisother version I'm dealing with.
It's just so hard for them tocomprehend that there's two
versions of this person.
And then it's an energetic right.
We are energetic creatures andwe do experience our emotions as
energy and a lot of narcissistsare able to be wonderful,

(43:12):
charming and stay in thatwonderful energy throughout
their workday with the neighborsand they're friendly and just
wonderful.
And then they come home andthey're exhausted.
Then you get the worst of thembecause they're exhausted and
they've been trying to be a goodperson all day and now you say
the wrong thing.
You're like, what's wrong withyou?
You're you always, and then allof a sudden they get a
hyperbolic and they literallyforget everything you ever did

(43:34):
that was good, Like, and thenthey can be and parts of their
brains turn off.
So they you know, the empathyis just not there.
Um, it's awful right.

Speaker 1 (43:44):
It is.

Speaker 2 (43:45):
It's terrible.
Yeah, it's the on-off switchthat you get to see over and
over and over and that's theliking you when you're doing
what they like and not likingyou if you're doing what they
don't like.
And it's wonderful if youhappen to like all the same
things and you're always happyto be doing what they're wanting
you to do.
It can go along really well forquite a while until something

(44:06):
goes wrong.

Speaker 1 (44:07):
Yeah, the good times are great times.

Speaker 2 (44:09):
The good times are the best times because they're
so hyperbolic about it.
Oh my God, this is the bestrestaurant.
Oh, we had the best meal ever.
Oh, you wouldn't believe howsmart this person was.
We met.
But then they also have oh, itwas the worst waiter, it was
just awful.
Oh, the traffic was justhorrible.
They tend to go both ways,which is exciting.

(44:31):
It's exciting and dramatic.
When you come from anarcissistic family, it's hard
to have a normal life.
Normal sort of feels boring.
It doesn't have such highs andlows.
Narcissists are missing allthat in between.
Most of life lives in this.
In between, they live in thepolarized experiences of it, and

(44:52):
that's so exciting and dramatic.
You leave a narcissist familyand you find normal people
boring.
Like, oh, yeah, they're reallynice but not very exciting.
Like, yeah, they don'texaggerate everything and we're
so used to exaggeration.
They just go to calm whenthey're having a fight, when
they're angry, and it seems likeoften the narcissist is the

(45:14):
calm one and the partner isgetting more and more upset
because they're not being seenand understood ever.
So then they end updysregulating and then the
narcissist goes to calm and thenthe one who's dysregulated
looks like the crazy one or theabusive one.
It's totally the opposite.

Speaker 1 (45:28):
Yes, and they sit back and look at you.
Oh my God, you're crazy.

Speaker 2 (45:31):
Yeah, yeah, they push us off the ledge and then they
blame us for falling off theledge.
You know, it's just a typicalnarcissist process.
You end up borderline if youlive with a narcissist too long
because you're adapting to themand you end up dysregulating
more and more and more just tobe seen and understood.
You have to dysregulate,literally.

(45:52):
You have to exaggerate your ownemotions for them to listen to
them and you eventually, becausethey ignore, ignore, ignore,
ignore, they're not attuning,not attuning, not attuning.
Then there's a crisis andthey're like oh, you're so
dramatic.
It's like you literally didn'tlisten for the 12 times I asked
you to do the thing Right.
You have to change the programand so that's it's become.

(46:15):
It's become my life, it'sbecome my, it's really become my
life project.
Do you mind if I go into thatpart?
No, please do.
I'm creating a project calledthe Narcissism Recovery Project
and I'm swapping out recoveringnarcissists more for recovering
humans, because there's so muchin common In the Narcissism

(46:37):
Recovery Project.
There is a collection of bookscoming.
The first one is called theUnited States of Disconnection,
and the United States ofDisconnection is a book about
what's happening right now inAmerica the fear-mongering
that's caused division, thenarcissistic processes that have
been happening, that causeddivision, having a narcissistic

(46:59):
Oval Office, what that does.
There's narcissistic abusehappening to literally the whole
country and the whole countryhas suffered narcissistic abuse
to literally the whole countryand the whole country has
suffered narcissistic abuse andnow they don't trust each other.
The whole country needs torecover from narcissistic abuse
the whole country.
Honestly, it's become sonormalized.
It has been way too normalizedand emotional immaturity has

(47:19):
become normalized.
But also the American dream theAmerican dream is narcissistic
Having the biggest house and thebest cars and the most things.
That dream is narcissistic.
That's chasing materialisminstead of chasing values.
Instead of having the mostloving relationships and the
most loving community, we wantthe biggest house.

(47:42):
I have clients who move fromthis kind of living in condos
and they move to the suburbs tohave the big house and they're
depressed.
And then I meet them becausethey're so depressed they live
in these suburbs, they used towalk out the door and they used
to know neighbors and they usedto have this feeling of
community and now they have nofeeling of community but they
have a great big house.
We are pack animals.

(48:04):
We are pack animals and we'vebeen taught by media to be
chasing these dreams of yeah, ifyou have this beautiful bag,
you're going to feel betterwalking down the street, and
then you devote too many hoursbuying this stupid handbag
that's made in China anyway,pretending to come from Italy.
We value the wrong things andwe chase the wrong things, right

(48:25):
, and then you're not growing upemotionally and learning to
love each other.
You're learning to love Prada.
Really, we need to turn theship around and people need to
recognize we're just a bunch ofpack animals.
So what I'm working on right nowmy assistant bless him, he's
working on it right now is freemanuals to go with the book.

(48:45):
I'm working on companion guidesto go with the United States of
Disconnection so that peoplecan start their own book clubs
so that they can download thesefree guides, and I'm also
creating separately, just a12-week program of connection,
so literally anyone can downloadthis PDF and invite some
neighbors to come over onTuesday evenings and they all

(49:06):
download this PDF.
And now you have a group guideand you can literally practice
your relationship skillstogether, because we need to
learn to love each other, weneed to learn to develop trust,
we need to practice ouremotional skills and our
relationship skills.
I'm creating these guides thatwill be free PDFs that people

(49:28):
can just start creating loveloops around them and start
bringing people back togetherand start conversations and
start having spaces where we'renot judging each other.
Here we're just listening andwe're actually practicing
empathy and we're practicinglove and kindness and this is a
safe space, because we all needsomething like AA right now.
You know AA is a really goodsupport group and so my dream is

(49:50):
that there's going to be loveloop groups.
You can just drop in a loveloop group and you can sit in a
sharing circle and you can sharethat.
You're having a hard time withother people.
It doesn't matter if you're notaddicted to alcohol.
You're still living in thisdifficult world and you want to
share with people.
There needs to be groups forthat, but the more we're able to
develop more trust with eachother and the more trust we

(50:11):
create like trust really is anincredibly important part of
society, because trust allows usto have compassion, and without
compassion, it all goes wrong.
It just all goes wrong.
We're all flawed people and weneed compassion for each other.
The traits that we considerfeminine are higher level

(50:31):
emotional skills, and weconsider them feminine because
they're nurtured more byfeminine, identified people.
But they're just emotionalskills and they're skills we
should all be aiming for, notjust women.
We all should be aiming forthese skills.
They're our most evolved skills.
We're just meant to love eachother honestly, right?
Yeah, well, okay.

Speaker 1 (50:54):
So, speaking of women and love, I guess I'm going to
kind of twist it like that.
You have another thing that youdo to help talk about
narcissism.
That's true.

Speaker 2 (51:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (51:07):
And that's Doreen Devine.

Speaker 2 (51:11):
That's absolutely right.
So, as we know, waking up tonarcissism is really the main
thing that causes people to nothave change.
They never see it in themselves.
It's always the other person'sproblem, it's always something
wrong with them.
Everyone's just stupid.
It's always something else'sfault.
So they don't do the personalwork.

(51:31):
But she's open about what'sgoing on for her.
So she's she's she's openlyhaving narcissistic experiences
and then sharing with theaudience what it is.
She's what's going on.
She's like you know what I justdid there?

(51:52):
I just lied to myself.
That's what happened, huh.
And then she goes through whathappened to in her inner.
You know how she ended upgaslighting herself.
People in the audience are notdefending against this
information, they're just sortof taking it in.
Some of them are going like oh,my God, is that narcissistic,
is it?
Oh, oh.
And in fact, my own, my ownex-partner, woke up from Doreen

(52:17):
sharing, sharing about how, howshe feels like everyone's always
watching her.
You know she like you know I'mwalking down the street and
everyone's looking at me andit's so stressful sometimes, but
I also like it.
She's going on about how itfeels like everyone's always
watching her and he's like Ifeel like that.

(52:37):
Is that not how people feel?
Like no, no, that's not howeveryone feels.
And then so it's the ability toidentify with someone else in a
way that's funny and relatable,rather than blaming and
contemptible.
Because if you think you're anarcissist and you say, am I a
narcissist?
You get hit with fire andbrimstone online, right, it's

(52:59):
just going to be all like run,run, they're horrible, they're
horrible, they're abusive andthey are horrible and you should
run.
But they're also just humanshaving a human experience, and
the more we can get in touchwith each other and our human
experiences and the more we cansupport each other in that, the
less hurtful we'll become.

Speaker 1 (53:16):
I like that.
You use comedy and I know thatit's a bit unconventional and
some people scoff at the idea ofsuch a heavy topic and poking
fun at it.
If you're hearing just all thereally bad, negative things, you
sort of turn off and you don'tlisten.
But when you're talking about atopic and not making light of

(53:37):
it but making it more, I guess,palatable almost then you're
able to soak in the actualcontent of what's being trying
to, you know, trying to getacross.

Speaker 2 (53:52):
In Gestalt we say we need to.
It's the paradoxical theory ofchange.
We can't change what we don'taccept.
And right now, narcissism isnot accepted, it's not
acceptable and we can't changeit.
We actually need to accept it,we need to recognize it, and
when we accept it, that's whenit shifts.

(54:12):
And I also plan to have aone-woman show who didn't sing
for all these years, but nowthat I've got my voice back out,
I'm a singer without anaudience.
And that came back throughDoreen too, because, as I
mentioned earlier, I was shamedout of singing and I felt a
shame response and I was tooashamed to sing in front.

(54:33):
And that's part of what dragdoes as well.
It gives you the confidence tobring yourself up when you've
been taught to be small andthat's true for a lot of drag
artists.
Where they've been, they weresmall in their lives and then
they're able to shine throughtheir, through their drag
persona.
So she, she's a singer.
She's planning to have a showthat's educating about
narcissism that has guests onsinging at the piano.

(54:56):
I don't know if you ever heardof Dame Edna.
He was a, he was a.
He he's a.
He was a comedian fromAustralia who had Dame Edna as a
drag queen, who was a veryfamous drag queen in the early
90s.
Doreen's going to be sort oflike that, except Doreen can

(55:17):
sing.
Dame Edna sang, but she wasn'treally a singer, but Doreen's
yeah, so I'm excited for that.

Speaker 1 (55:22):
Is Doreen doing live shows or is Doreen going to do
like a video show?

Speaker 2 (55:26):
We're not sure how it's going to go yet.

Speaker 1 (55:28):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (55:29):
I have so many, so many projects going at the same
time.
Yeah, you have a full plate.

Speaker 1 (55:35):
So, speaking of Doreen, I know that you and I
talked about this before westarted recording, but just
because I think the queercommunity can probably identify
a lot with Doreen too, butthere's specific struggles when
it comes to narcissism and withthe queer community, can you
just jump into a little bitabout that specifically.

Speaker 2 (55:56):
Yeah Well, we talked about narcissism being
disconnection and living insecrecy.
This happens to a lot of peopleIf you're growing up in a
family system where it doesn'tfeel acceptable to be open about
how you're experiencing yoursexuality or your gender, or if
you feel like in your community,you end up hiding your true

(56:16):
experience from others and I didthat myself.
I was absolutely hiding my trueexperience from others and you
end up living in secret, whichis exactly what a narcissist is
doing.
They're living in secret, andto keep that secret up, you end
up having narcissistic defensesthat develop over time.
So living in the closet itselfcauses us to need narcissistic

(56:38):
defenses because no one's reallythere with us on our team.
So if no one's really on ourteam, we need to do strategies
like oh, I don't need themanyway.
Or oh, I'm smarter than themanyway, or I can do everything
better than them.
They often end up in grandiosestrategies to feel okay because
they're so alone and they leavereality a little bit because

(57:02):
they're so alone, but alsovaluing things that are
superficial because they aredenying their true identity and
they're not feeling acceptable.
And because you're not feelingacceptable, there's shame.
There can be so much shamethere I was drowning in shame.
I literally thought everybodyin my life would reject me if
they knew I was attracted to thesame sex.

(57:22):
That was how I felt about it,and I was going to an
evangelical church that told meit was evil.
So I had this huge shame that Iwas avoiding.
And that's what happens withnarcissism they're avoiding
shame.
So if you force someone to livein shame, then they're avoiding
this emotion.
They end up avoiding all theemotions around shame as well,

(57:43):
which means they end up notfeeling this whole range of
emotions, which means they havea lack of empathy because
they're avoiding this whole setof emotions.
So if I'm not letting myselffeel shame, I'm not going to
feel ashamed of the thing I justdid to you either.
It's much easier for them toghost each other and to just
treat each other with a totallack of empathy.
If I've learned not to feelthings, I'm not feeling things

(58:05):
with you.
If I've learned not to feel sad, then I'm not going to feel sad
with you.
If I've made you sad and Idon't even recognize that I've
made you sad.
So there can be this detachmentand there is quite a lot of
narcissism in the LGBTQcommunity and learning to love
each other is also the workthere, creating love loops.
And we're getting better.

(58:26):
We've been getting better inthe last couple of decades
because we're not so rejected,right?
We understand now that we can'tchange someone's sexuality just
by that kind of identification,but we can save someone's life
when they don't feel likethey're absolutely alone in the
world.
Because I did try to killmyself.
I tried to kill myself morethan once and that lack of

(58:46):
belonging, that lack ofself-acceptance, came from the
lack of acceptance around me.
So that's why you know youshould stand up for your trans
neighbors, your LGBTQ neighborsand your migrant neighbors.

Speaker 1 (58:58):
Who is.
If somebody wanted to get yourbook or eventually see Doreen or
you know, whatever any of thesethings that you have, how can
they get in touch with you orhow can they follow you?

Speaker 2 (59:11):
So the main website that maybe it'll be out by the
time your episode's out, theNarcissism Recovery Project is
the main website.
So thenarcissismrecoveryprojectcom is
where it's going to be theblanket for all the different
books It'll have.
The United States ofDisconnection.
I'm already working on aCanadian version called we're

(59:31):
Not Immune, because we have aslightly different version of
narcissism up here.

Speaker 1 (59:35):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (59:38):
And then I have some other countries in mind and also
loveloopsnet or no org and alsoloveloopsnet or no org.
Loveloopsorg is really the mainplace for the Love Loops
workbooks that are coming,literally being formatted some
of them right now, but it'll allbe attached.

(01:00:00):
You can go to either one andfind both.
And Doreen's written throughthe book as the comedian, she's
the comic relief in quite a fewchapters.
It's a really different kind ofbook.
I'm excited for the workbookstoo.
I feel like they're going to beinteresting.

(01:00:21):
Not just a workbook, it's alsosomething that's going to be
enjoyable.
In these workbooks I'm makingcelebrity identifications,
Because a lot of celebritieshave talked about their
narcissistic relationships andtheir own struggles with
narcissism or mental health.
So I've included quite a fewlittle stories.

(01:00:42):
Like Adele, she clearly had anarcissist partner before she
wrote 21, because pretty muchall those songs are written
about a narcissistic partner andquite a few people.
So there's quotes by peoplethroughout the book.
You know, to keep that littleidentification like oh, her too,
oh, them too, oh, wow.
And there's also top 10 lists tomake it easier to digest.

(01:01:04):
Lists to make it easier todigest the top 10 things that
are toxic behaviors, the top 10things that are most likely for
a daughter of a narcissist tosuffer from, or the top 10.
I've just put a whole bunch oftop 10 lists and made it a lot
more digestible, so I'm reallyexcited for these books.
I hope they cause a big stir.
A lot of them are going to befree and published, so you can

(01:01:28):
download it and print it.
But if you want the pretty one,you can click on Amazon and buy
it from there too.

Speaker 1 (01:01:33):
And then.
So I guess, before we close, isthere any parting ideas,
thoughts or advice that you wantto share, or advice that you
want to share.

Speaker 2 (01:01:49):
Really, the main thing is we are just a bunch of
human pack animals and I dobelieve our natural state is
loving each other and I thinklove and kindness is actually a
healthy way to be living withour neighbors and our friends
and the people around us and thepeople on the bus and the
people on the subway.
I really think and fear pullsus apart and we need to start

(01:02:14):
counteracting the fear bylearning who people are, by
introducing ourselves to ourneighbors.
Introduce yourself to yourneighbors.
There's one way you can do it.
We're not meant to liveindependently.
We do better in community.
We absolutely do.
And some people go to churchand they find a loving community
and they think, oh, it onlyhappens at church.
No, it can happen anywhere.

(01:02:36):
You love each other.
It's just we've forgotten howto do it and that we should.
But the more we do it, the morethey love us back.
Like, really, you can make thegrocery store more fun just by
being, you know, just by beingfriendly as you're going through
it, instead of cold anddetached, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:02:55):
That was beautiful.
Thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
Thank you so much, Ingrid.
You can hear I can talk for afew hours.

Speaker 1 (01:03:02):
I mean, we'll keep talking as soon as I hit stop.
But yeah, thank you so much forcoming on.

Speaker 2 (01:03:08):
Pleasure.

Speaker 1 (01:03:09):
Thank you again, darren, for joining me today and
thank you, warriors, forlistening.
You can find all of the linksDarren was referring to, along
with his one in three profile,listed in the show notes.
Before we wrap up, I need tosay this one more time Before we
wrap up, I need to say this onemore time If you think you are
in a relationship with anarcissist or anyone who is

(01:03:30):
abusive, please make plans toleave as soon as possible.
Protect yourself and protectanyone else who may be affected.
You cannot change the abuser.
The abuse will escalate.
If there is any hope for change, leave that up to the

(01:03:50):
professionals, not you.
You deserve peace.
You deserve safety.
Got it Good.
I'll be back next week withanother episode for you.
Until then, wherever you are inyour journey, always remember

(01:04:19):
you are not alone.
I N the number three podcastcom.
Follow one in three onInstagram, facebook and Twitter
at one in three podcast to helpme out.
Please remember to rate, reviewand subscribe.
One in three is a 0.5 Pinoyproduction music written and
performed by Tim Crow.
© transcript Emily Beynon.