October 1, 2025 • 37 mins
In this episode of 1 in 3, host Ingrid sits down with Captain Eric Threlkeld—law enforcement leader, former UN police trainer, and domestic violence specialist—to unpack what truly saves lives: better first responses, stronger multidisciplinary teams, and real training on non-fatal strangulation that too often goes unnoticed in the ER and on the street.
The conversation connects hard data with practical tools, showing how domestic violence response intersects with mass-shooting prevention, officer safety, and survivor protection. Eric explains why traditional police academy training falls short for complex DV cases—and how those first few minutes at a scene can determine justice or jeopardy.
We dig into trauma-informed interviewing—letting victims speak freely, recording thoroughly, and revisiting for clarity—and why separating parties, identifying every witness, and routing children to forensic interviews safeguard both truth and trust. Eric outlines the top lethality indicators: prior strangulation, access to firearms, threats of suicide, and substance abuse, referencing proven tools like the Maryland Lethality Assessment Program and Dr. Jacquelyn Campbell’s Danger Assessment.
The discussion also addresses officer-involved domestic violence, exploring how independent investigations, firearm removal, and transparency protect victims and rebuild public confidence.
From the healthcare perspective, Eric issues an urgent call: recognize non-fatal strangulation injuries even when bruises are absent. We break down clinical cues—phrases like “choked,” “arm around my neck,” or “blacked out”—and how shared checklists help ER teams order imaging, document internal trauma, and prevent homicide.
Throughout, Eric underscores how multidisciplinary domestic violence response teams—prosecutors, judges, law enforcement, advocates, probation, and medical professionals—reduce recidivism and prevent cases from falling through the cracks, even when funding is limited.
If you care about safer communities, survivor-centered justice, and improving law enforcement response to domestic violence, this conversation offers concrete steps you can use today. Subscribe to 1 in 3, share with your network, and leave a review to help more professionals and families access these life-saving insights.
Eric’s Links:
https://www.1in3podcast.com/guests/eric-k-threlkeld/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/ericthrelkeld/
1 in 3 is intended for mature audiences. Episodes contain explicit content and may be triggering to some.
If you are in the United States and need help right now, call the national domestic violence hotline at 800-799-7233 or text the word “start” to 88788.
Contact 1 in 3:
- Send your emails to 1in3podcast@gmail.com
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Thank you for listening!
Cover art by Laura Swift Dahlke
Music by Tim Crowe
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Hi Warriors and welcome to One in Three.
I'm your host, Ingrid.
Today is October 1st and marksthe official start of Domestic
Violence Awareness Month.
This year's theme, as shared bythe Domestic Violence Awareness
Project, is With SurvivorsAlways.
It's a powerful reminder thatsurvivors deserve safety.
(00:22):
Survivors deserve support.
And survivors deservesolidarity.
I am honored to be joined todayby Captain Eric Thrillkeld, who
has dedicated much of his careerto advocating for domestic
violence victims.
Here's Eric.
Hi, Eric.
Thank you so much for joining metoday.
SPEAKER_01 (00:42):
Of course.
SPEAKER_00 (00:44):
So before we get into our conversation, could you
give a bit of a background ofyourself so the listeners can
get to know you a bit?
SPEAKER_01 (00:51):
Sure.
So I've been in law enforcementfor over 30 years.
I started my career in NewMexico in a small city and that
I actually, the same town I wentto high school in, eventually
worked my way up to Albuquerque,New Mexico, where I worked for
several years with the policethere.
I spent several years inColorado Springs with the El
(01:15):
Paso County Sheriff's Office,which is kind of where I got my
really strong interest in thistopic of domestic violence.
I had an opportunity to join aspecialized team there called
the Domestic Violence EnhancedResponse Team, which was a
multidisciplined group of peoplehandling the most lethal cases
in a two-county area.
(01:36):
I took that experience and wentoverseas with the United Nations
police in 2000 with uh in Kosovoand kind of parlayed that
experience with domesticviolence into what I was doing
there, training police uh at thepolice academy in Kosovo.
And then I I uh was the directoror the chief of the domestic
(02:00):
violence program for thecountry.
Um the country was broken upinto five regions, and we had
international police in eachregion who and our goal, our
world goal was to train localpolice officers to take over.
And went from Kosovo toMacedonia, North Macedonia, with
the organization for securityand cooperation in Europe, uh,
(02:22):
where I trained uh policeleaders, community leaders uh on
Western standards of modernpolicing, a lot on community
policing-oriented projects anddomestic violence training as
well.
Uh eventually came back to theUnited States, worked for the
Federal Law Enforcement TrainingCenter for a while, uh, again
(02:43):
focusing on domestic violence.
And now I've been with the EddieCounty Sheriff's Office for
about 14 years.
Uh, started out in patrol andworked my way up to captain, all
of which has been uh detective,patrol detective, sergeant,
lieutenant, and captain all inthe detective division.
And we're an agency of about 80sworn positions, and um I
(03:08):
oversee, I'm still overseeingthe detective division and um
the divert program.
I've created a helped to createa divert program here as well.
SPEAKER_00 (03:18):
So do all law offices have a domestic
violence, like do they havedomestic violence training as
part of their system, or is thatsomething that's specific and
depends on how remote they are?
SPEAKER_01 (03:32):
So every academy has some domestic violence component
to it, but it's it's woefullyinadequate for doing thorough
investigations.
The average that I've seenaround the country is about 16
hours of training for out of thewhole academy.
So it's it's imperative thatagencies do more advanced
(03:52):
training once officers get outof basic training, they start
working in the field.
And a lot of that comes throughthe the field training program
of actually responding to calls.
It's you know, trial by fire, ifyou will.
Uh but I in my view, that reallyshouldn't be the case.
We should be have really reallywell-rounded, well-trained
(04:15):
officers uh before they actuallygo on the street and start
responding to these calls forfor various reasons.
One, they're extremely dangerousto everybody involved, including
the officers who are responding.
Um, but it what your thatinitial response uh oftentimes
makes or breaks if the case isgoing to be successful, if
(04:37):
you're gonna save someone's lifeor not, uh, and and puts victims
and and and offenders andchildren on the right or wrong
path, depending on how youaddress it and at that from the
very first call for service.
SPEAKER_00 (04:51):
So I'm actually I was planning on going in a
different order, but uh, sinceyou're talking about danger, a
lot of people are talking aboutmass shootings, and that's
always sort of on the top ofeveryone's brain.
There's a strong link between ahistory of domestic violence uh
and mass shootings.
Is that correct?
SPEAKER_01 (05:10):
Sure.
Um actually actuallystatistically, uh about over 50%
of mass shootings that occurredin our country have a domestic
violence nexus.
Uh you can go back to most ofthem and find that your suspect
is either as is either adomestic violence abuser that
grew up in an abusive home andand witnessed a lot of domestic
(05:32):
violence, um you you will seethat uh it's a it's an ongoing
theme.
And if you go all the way backto the first recorded mass
shooting that that we had in theUnited States, I believe it was
1966 at the University of Texas,uh, where the subject climbed up
on a tower and started shootingstudents with a high-powered
(05:54):
rifle.
He killed his wife and and uhmother before coming to that
that scene.
So and there's plenty of otherexamples.
Uh Dylan Roof uh witnessed yearsof abuse by his stepfather
against his mother.
Um you look at the PulseNightclub shooting, uh the
offender in that, uh, thedocumented history of
(06:14):
strangulation against his wife.
So it there's plenty ofevidence.
Uh, and and one of the things Ifocus on in the training that we
do with officers is if if you'rebe aware of that when you go
into these situations, not onlyfor mass shooting, but for
suspects who strangle theirtheir uh victims, officers are
(06:35):
at a much higher increased riskof being hurt or killed by those
suspects if they're stranglers.
SPEAKER_00 (06:43):
Yeah, I remember reading, and I don't know the
exact uh statistics, that it wasaround 75 to 80 percent of
officer um involved homicidewhere they were the the person
who was killed um from adomestic violence offender who
had previously strangled theirintimate partner.
Um so you had mentioned beforemultidisciplinary teams.
(07:06):
What does that exactly mean?
SPEAKER_01 (07:09):
So it depends on on which context you look at it.
Uh so you probably heard of theterm um a CRC community response
uh community response team,community, there's different
acronyms for it, but which issort of a multidisciplined group
of people who get together on aregular basis and review sexual
(07:30):
assault crimes and domesticviolence-related crimes.
Or maybe maybe they haveseparate teams and they have one
for each issue.
Uh, but you bring to the tableuh the medical expertise, for
example, probably have a medicaldoctor on that team, a
prosecutor or two.
Uh in best case scenarios,you'll have a judge or two, uh,
you'll have law enforcement,you'll have um nonprofit victim
(07:53):
advocates, for-profit, notfor-profit, but uh victim
advocates who are attached tolaw enforcement agencies or
prosecution's prosecutors'offices, and uh probation and
parole.
Um anybody who has a hand in thein the making and dealing uh
with domestic violence,offenders and victims in the
(08:13):
community can be part of thisgroup.
And I've seen lots of differentexamples of how they how they
function.
Uh some of them can be verydetail-oriented, some are
looking at looking at thingsfrom a broader perspective.
Um you you have some that um aredoing case reviews and deciding
(08:38):
as a group how they might bestassist this the families or the
people that are involved inthese cases.
They can be really effective.
Um they're hard topic to holdtogether.
Uh you've got to bring decisionmakers to the table in those
things.
Um, for example, uh a chief ofpolice sending a patrol officer
(09:00):
to those teams is it gonna bevery effective?
Because you've got to havesomebody there when they're when
they're talking about policy umchanges, um, changes in
protocols.
It's gotta be somebody inposition who can say, yes, we
can do that.
Um and it it's uh kind of likeherding cats and getting all
those people to the table on ona regular basis.
(09:21):
And and it making those teamsself-sustainable where it's not
all contingent on the uh thecoordinator uh to hold it all
together.
Um I've seen teams where acoordinator uh leaves for one
reason or another and the thewhole thing just kind of falls
apart.
But they could they can be setup and and programmed well and
to to carry on no matter who's auh who the coordinator is.
(09:45):
And uh they're very effective.
Yeah, uh another another form ofa multidiscipline approach is a
specialized domestic violenceunit uh like would be most
likely within a policeorganization.
Um the one I worked in inColorado, the the work team
there was housed off-site.
It was not housed within apolice agency.
(10:06):
Uh the that the leap the uhdirector of the program was
actually a civilian position,which was unique for me.
I'd never experienced thatbefore.
But um they had a lot of fundingfrom VAWA, uh the Violence
Against Women Act to pay for allof this uh the over time and the
the building that we were in,and electric bill and all of
(10:27):
that, which was great.
Um, and the team was veryeffective.
It was part of the money thatthe funding they had paid for, a
study that was done to show thatit reduced recidivism.
Uh and but it doesn't existanymore because the funding went
away.
And I I see that as a themeacross the United States.
It's hard to find specializedteams that just focus on
(10:48):
domestic violence.
They are there are some andthere's some really effective
ones.
Um but what I what I tellofficers is all of those people
that make up those teams,they're still in our community.
Um we may not have be all ableto all work out of the same
office, but we if we know who weare, for example, from a from a
(11:08):
law enforcement perspective, ifI identify a prosecutor who I
know is passionate about thesecases, I'm gonna do my best to
make sure they get all my cases.
And um go if I know if I know avictim advocate who's really
passionate about it as well,hopefully they all are, and
we're gonna reach out to them.
Uh we're gonna have maybe haveinformal meetings and kind of be
(11:32):
the squeaky wheel on these casesand making sure that they don't
get lost in the system.
And it's a problem.
Uh we we see here uh thesuccessful conviction on
domestic violence cases in mystate, it's abysmal.
It's less than 10 percent.
And it's you know, it's it'sdistressing.
(11:52):
And we we tend if we're not in aif we're not all working
together in a multidisciplinaryapproach, we there's a lot of
finger pointing.
You know, officers are pointingtheir fingers at the
prosecutors, well, you dismissthe cases left and right, and
the prosecutors are saying,well, you're not doing thorough
investigations, you're not doingevidence-based investigations,
and uh we can't move forward,uh, we can't find the victim,
(12:13):
the victim's uncooperative.
There's a there's all these uhgaps, and having a uh a team can
really mitigate those.
But it's it does take a lot ofwork.
SPEAKER_00 (12:26):
Well yeah, I imagine a victim is less likely to be
found or be cooperative if theydon't have faith in the system
that they're actually there toadvocate for them.
So it's almost even if you got ateam together, and then even if
it disintegrated over time,you're still opening those lines
of communication with eachother, like how you mentioned
you can con you know whatprosecutor to look for.
(12:50):
There's a big disconnect you andI had been talking about
previously in education for theproviders throughout like all
the different um specialties andpositions of receiving the
education on domestic violenceand actually putting it into
practice.
And you know, I'm a nursepractitioner, I'm not really in
(13:11):
the hospital anymore to, and I Iwas never somebody who dealt
directly with domestic violencevictims, but we always had to
have annual competencies just incase we did happen to come upon
somebody who uh we would suspectdomestic violence, but I can say
that I probably was not umprepared enough to actually
(13:33):
really pick up on those.
SPEAKER_01 (13:35):
Yeah, that's a good point.
Um if I look at education onnon-fatal strangulation as an
example, um nurses typicallydon't get that training in
nursing school, and doctorsaren't getting it in medical
school.
So it's it's tough for if youhave a detective or patrol
(13:56):
officer who's working astrangulation case to come to a
doctor in the emergency room andsay, hey, uh this is what I
learned.
Uh we really need a CT scan onthis.
And doctors are like, What?
You're trying to tell me how todo my job.
And you're like, no, I so wehave we have tools for them.
We have uh we have some trifoldcards that we educate officers,
(14:17):
hey, this is something you cangive to a physician and say,
look, this is the gold standard.
Uh not not my idea.
This is other medicalprofessionals who've decided
this is the best way to uh givethorough exams on those kinds of
cases.
That can be really helpful.
And so educating, bringing thosepeople into the fold in your C
in your uh response teams isessential uh to make sure they
(14:41):
all understand.
Paramedics is another example.
Um they're great resources.
Victims will tell paramedicsthings that they're not ever
gonna say to the police, butparamedics write reports.
But if they don't understand thesigns and symptoms of
strangulation, uh they may notask the right questions.
And often victims aren'tvolunteering that.
You gotta you gotta ask.
unknown (15:03):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (15:03):
And so let's talk about non-fatal strangulation
for a second because thoseindividuals don't you can't
necessarily tell somebody's beenstrangled just based on the
outward appearance.
SPEAKER_01 (15:14):
Right.
Yeah, so we know about whatabout half the time you're gonna
you're gonna have visiblebruising.
And only about 15% of the timeare you gonna see bruises that
are significant enough to getdecent photographs that might be
able to use as evidence.
Uh so we we the absolute and andso at half the time you're not
(15:34):
gonna see anything.
So we've got to ask the rightquestions.
We gotta we've got to know uhyou know, are you having
difficulty breathing?
Uh is this person have a raspyvoice, if they've got uh
petichee in the eyes, bloodbloodshot eyes, uh are they uh
lightheaded?
They know if they've lostconsciousness or not, all of
(15:55):
things which can really uhexacerbate the the situation.
Uh but we've got to identifythose those uh markers of
strangulation, and it it takesit takes training and it takes
time to ask those questions.
There's some really goodassessment tools for law
enforcement and for medicalproviders on reminding us what
questions to ask.
(16:17):
Uh we it's it's one of thecrimes that we really want to
know, not just strangulation,but domestic violence in
general.
Asking victims, how did thismake you feel?
Because often in a strangulationcase, a victim's gonna say, I
thought I was gonna die.
We don't have to do that when wego to burglary calls.
(16:38):
People are telling us, I'mangry, I'm upset, someone broke
into my house, I stole my stuff,I want you to put them in
prison.
Um, but on domestic violence,that's generally not the case.
So asking people how how theyfeel is imperative.
SPEAKER_00 (16:54):
It's really also important to identify those
victims because I I believe therisk of lethality following a
non fatal strangulation isextremely elevated.
I um I again I can't rememberthe statistics right off the top
of my 750%.
SPEAKER_01 (17:09):
Okay, I thought it was 750% greater likelihood
you're gonna later be murderedby that person.
And that doesn't mean you'regonna be strangled in death.
It can happen in a plethora ofother ways.
Uh it's just people who usestrangulation as a form of power
and control are much more likelyto kill you.
SPEAKER_00 (17:26):
Right.
Uh so one thing that keepscoming up that I I everything I
keep reading is trauma-informeduh individuals, that you want a
trauma-informed attorney,trauma-informed judge,
trauma-informed law enforcementto really understand what you're
going through.
What is ex what does thatexactly mean?
SPEAKER_01 (17:46):
Um I I guess one way to characterize it is um you've
got to be, you've got to havethere there are specialized
training programs specificallyfor trauma-informed
interviewing, and they'rethey're somewhat lengthy.
And it uh it's probably maybeI'm being a bit optimistic to
think that every officer wouldget a chance to go through
those.
That would be wonderful if theydid.
(18:07):
But there's some basic thingsthat we can all do as far as
taking time to understand thattrauma affects people's
memories, it affects theirresponses to questions and to
different different stimuli thatyou may be experiencing.
And domestic violence is one ofthose.
Uh, if you look at uh non-fatalstrangulation as an example, uh
(18:29):
it's if you've been strangled tounconsciousness, you're gonna
have gaps in your memory.
Uh, there's no no way thatyou're you once you're out,
you're out.
You don't know what happened.
Um so understanding that andunderstanding even if you didn't
lose consciousness, that you'restill going to you may suffer
from memory loss, even long-termmemory loss.
(18:49):
And and understanding thatvictims who have experienced a
significant trauma are notnecessarily going to be your
best uh victim.
Uh they may not tell you thestory in a chronological
fashion, which police officersthat's over trained over and
over again.
Everything's got to bechronological.
(19:10):
And sometimes we try to pushpeople into a box and make them
tell their story in such afashion.
It's not it's not practical.
It's it's going to ruin youryour interview, it's gonna
probably ruin your rapport withthat victim if you're trying to
do that.
So what I what I tell officersis look, we all have body
cameras.
Most all of us do.
(19:31):
Um if you don't, you've got someother kind of recording device.
You're you can go back and referto those recordings if need be,
but let people tell their storywithout interrupting them.
Let them talk tell you whateveris on their mind at that moment.
And it may not be thestrangulation, it might be uh
they're upset about they needtheir car keys back, or what
(19:54):
where did he take the kids, orhow am I gonna pay for this?
And um who knows?
There uh I give you an exampleof a case I worked years ago
where um the district attorney'soffice gave me a call and said,
Hey, we we had a victim of uhdomestic violence come in.
She was upset because her casewasn't being prosecuted, and so
(20:16):
we looked at the police reportand we listened to what she had
to say, and they don't match.
There's lots of informationthat's not in the report.
Could you please take a look atthis?
So I did, and it was a it was areport generated by my agency,
and the sat down with the victimand went back uh to the
beginning, and and what Irealized was that um she had
(20:36):
been strangled and nobody askedher about that.
She didn't she didn't share thatinformation with deputies on
scene.
She did briefly mention it tothe paramedics, she never
mentioned it to the doctor atthe emergency room.
And there was a witness to thatstrangulation who was never
interviewed, her teenagedaughter.
Because when she's telling methis story, she's saying, Well,
(20:59):
I came in and you know, he heput his arm around my throat and
he was punching me and I lostconsciousness, and then he
drugged me across the floor andhe pushed me out the back door.
I think, well, how do you knowall this stuff if you were
unconscious?
And so, oh, my daughter told methat's what happened after I
lost consciousness.
Well, she wasn't mentionedanywhere in the report.
So we've got to interview allthe witnesses because we never
(21:21):
know what people saw or heard.
And it's just an example wherethe paramedics she mentioned
being choked, it was a termshe'd used to the paramedics.
They didn't they didn't pass iton to them to the doctor.
Um, so what what I tellinvestigators is look, if at all
possible, go to the ER with yourvictim, make sure that the that
(21:44):
the ER physician knows that thestrangulation occurred and
encourage them to do a thoroughexam, look for those signs and
symptoms, or ask about the signsand symptoms and look for
internal injuries because theythey very well may be there, and
you're not gonna be able todoctors can't see them either
without specialized equipment,specialized tests.
(22:05):
Um but the the back to thetrauma-informed interviewing, um
just not asking compoundquestions, keeping them simple
and straightforward, lettingvictims tell their story all the
way through withoutinterrupting.
And you can always go back andwalk them through step by step.
SPEAKER_00 (22:23):
So you actually brought up something that uh I
wanted to point out is a lot oftimes when people think of
strangulation, they think ofsomeone coming from the front of
them using their hands toactually put around their neck
and maybe don't even considerthe arm, the I guess the sleeper
holds sort of um as that isactually a form of strangulation
(22:44):
as well.
SPEAKER_01 (22:45):
Sure.
And you can uh uh ligatures area form of strangulation, hanging
is a form of strangulation.
So you can use other your yourarms, your knees, your legs, all
kinds of things that anythingyou can compress someone's
throat with.
And and it's important tounderstand it doesn't it can be
your fingers, it doesn't takemuch pressure at all.
(23:06):
Actually, only about four and ahalf to five pounds of pressure
to cut off the blood flow tosome to a human being.
And to put that in perspective,if you can open the soda can
with your finger, you haveenough strength to strangle
someone.
If you can pull the trigger on apistol, uh you have enough
strength to strangle somebody.
SPEAKER_00 (23:26):
So I mean, I know a victim's not necessarily going
to be thinking of what terms touse if they're speaking to
officers, but is there any arethere any key words or key terms
that somebody would use thatwould kind of raise the the red
flag for an officer who's youknow answering a domestic call?
SPEAKER_01 (23:44):
About strangulation?
About anything that's Oh um Welllooking for I think looking for
signs that someone is in fear,uh looking at and but that may
that can be those can be subtleclues and not not making the
assumption that everyone's gonnabe upset or crying or angry.
(24:06):
Uh some some victims are gonnabe appear completely calm,
completely controlled.
And that may be because they'rethey're basically immune to the
process, and it's a regularoccurrence for them.
Um but we're all humans, we allrespond differently to trauma.
So we can't assume that uh I'veseen officers who have well, she
(24:29):
wasn't upset, she wasn't crying.
I don't know, maybe maybe she'snot being truthful, and that
could be the complete opposite.
So you gotta be open.
Um trying to think of some otherexamples, but separating victims
and suspects is imperative todoing thorough investigations
(24:51):
when you know, but oftentimesthese scenes are very chaotic,
so you have to get things undercontrol before you can be very
effective.
You gotta be you gotta have atleast two officers respond.
One officer is not gonna be ableto do a very thorough interview
because you need to separateyour your people that are
involved visually, alsoauditorily, um, but you gotta
(25:13):
keep your partner in sightbecause officers have to remain
safe.
It's it can be quite complex.
Um but so giving people a spacewhere they feel safe enough to
tell you what's going on is isimperative.
Um I think and and and makingsure that as I said before, all
(25:35):
your witnesses are interviewed,and that includes children, but
I'm not advocating that officersinterview kids on the scene,
especially younger children.
Uh, that takes a specialized uhform of training.
It needs to be a forensicinterview, and that's where that
multidisciplinary team comesinto into focus, because you
you're gonna have to get thosekids to um uh children's
(25:58):
advocacy center where thosethose interviews can be done in
a safe environment.
And if you start interviewingkids and locking them in on a
story, uh you never know thatthe kids are are are very likely
to want to protect one parent orthe other, or maybe both, or
maybe they're telling you whatthey think you want to hear.
Uh, and if you don't havespecialized training on how to
(26:18):
ask non-meaning questions ofchildren, you can really uh
devastate a case.
So get them to to uh forensicinterview.
SPEAKER_00 (26:30):
That's uh actually a very good point, too, because
they they can be swayed easilyor remember things incorrectly
if they're led uh down wrongquestioning.
Um one point I want to take ummake is that it's it is
difficult sometimes to find outwho the victim versus the
perpetrator is, because uh thevictim can typically present as
(26:52):
the crazy one, more emotional.
And then the perpetrator can becalm and charming.
And I think a very good casethat a lot of us uh
non-professionals were able towatch if we watched that
documentary was the Gabby Petitocase when um the police officers
had pulled her over or pulledthem over.
unknown (27:12):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (27:12):
Yeah, that's a that's kind of a classic
example.
Um they you know, I watched mostof that.
Uh and it's one one thing Ithink one tool that we use in my
agency, which I think would haveall agencies ought to use, is
some for some form of alethality assessment tool, a
risk assessment or dangerassessment tool, where you ask a
(27:35):
series of questions that youknow positive answers to are
going to raise red flags on alethality.
And I I guess well, we're nevergonna know in the Gavin Petito
case for sure, but if someonehad asked her, have you ever
been strangled or ever hadsomething put around your
throat?
Uh if she had answered yes, theycould have changed the whole
(27:58):
idea of the combatinvestigation.
Because ultimately that's whather death was ruled, homicide by
strangulation.
Um there was no lethality systemtool done that I saw.
Uh and there are lots ofagencies in the country that
don't have one.
Uh so that that's something Iwould strongly advocate for.
SPEAKER_00 (28:18):
And that's something that I think is pretty easy to
find.
I remember I did a an episodewhere I did discuss a lethality
tool, and I did a simple Googleand I was able to find basic
questions, not necessarilyaffiliated with a specific
place, but I think it was theperson who had designed the
initial lethality assessmenttool that I grabbed a few
(28:38):
questions from.
SPEAKER_01 (28:40):
Right.
Uh Dr.
Jacqueline Campbell is one ofthe premier researchers in this
area.
And there's a couple ofdifferent danger assessments out
there that she was interval increating.
The one we use, uh the Marylandmodel, uh assessment program, is
the one we use.
And I'm not advocating foranyone in particular, but that
(29:01):
it's it's easy, it'sstraightforward.
It reminds officers thequestions that we ought to be
asking in all of these casesanyway.
Uh, for example, as have youever been choked or strangled?
Uh does the offender have accessto weapons?
Is he ever threatened suicide?
Uh, do you have a child that heknows isn't his?
Is he unemployed?
Is he using drugs?
Is he ever threatened suicide?
All those are markers if they'reanswering yes to.
(29:23):
Uh, we we need to be thinking,oh wow, uh, this is scary.
And and sharing that informationwith with the victims that we're
talking about.
Uh it's it's a really powerfultool.
SPEAKER_00 (29:34):
I agree.
Uh so moving on to another topicthat's maybe a bit sensitive uh
is domestic violence.
SPEAKER_01 (29:42):
Yeah, so officer involved with domestic violence
is is problematic.
Um we it it occurs far more thanI would like to admit, uh, being
in law enforcement as long as Ihave, it's it's a bit
disturbing.
But the the The added risk forvictims when your offender is a
(30:03):
law enforcement officer is isreal.
So we've got to be cognizant ofthat.
We have to have comprehensivepolicies on how we're going to
address these cases when theycome to light.
For example, there's a criminalcomponent and there's an
internal affairs component.
And making sure those areclearly separated.
(30:25):
And that in most cases, uh Iwould be opposed to an agency
doing their own criminalinvestigation on a domestic
violence crime or one of theirofficers involved.
I think it would be impaired tofarm that out to uh a
neighboring agency, maybe anattorney general's office or a
state police if it's if if ifyou're a municipal or county
(30:47):
organization.
There are some agencies that areperhaps that are large enough
that they can do that.
Um but I've never worked in oneof those.
I I and I would be suspectwhether how effective that would
be.
But um that's what we do in ourin our agencies.
We would ask an outsideorganization to come in and
handle that.
But and even in those caseswhere it may not rise to the
(31:10):
level of criminal charge, uhthere there needs to be an
internal investigation to makesure that there were no policy
violations and that everythingis as transparent as possible
and that we offer support forvictims, making sure that
they're safe, that their family,that their children are safe.
Um, that we remove firearms fromofficers who are under
(31:32):
investigation for domesticviolence-related crimes is
imperative.
Just having a firearm in yourhome decreases your likelihood
of being killed 500%.
500%.
There's firearms in almost everylaw enforcement officer's home.
They I don't know of any agencywhere you don't take a gun home
with you.
So it's uh it's there.
And we need to make sure thatthose are those weapons are
(31:55):
secured until the investigationis completed.
SPEAKER_00 (31:59):
And so is there anything that like the average
person can do?
You know, uh, you know, I guessmaybe they could find out if
there's any of these domesticviolence, multidisciplinary
teams, or is there anything thatthey the average person can do
to advocate for something uh tobe done in their local area?
SPEAKER_01 (32:19):
Well, if you're really a a champion of this
subject, uh you could talk, tryto start one yourself if if you
want to go that far.
But if if you're not in aposition to do that, uh reaching
out to your chief of yourcommunity or the sheriff in your
community or the the thedistrict attorney's office uh
and and encouraging them to formsuch a group if it doesn't
(32:42):
already exist.
And if it does, see how youcould participate.
Uh some of them have uh acommunity member uh opportunity
for community members to be partof it um and offer input.
But um, you know, I'd be happyto share any information that I
(33:03):
have with people if they want toreach out, you can always
contact me on LinkedIn and umI'll I'll just I'll be very very
easy to share information withyou.
There's there are toolkits outthere on the internet um
specifically for developing uhCRCs and that kind of a
step-by-step process, everythingfrom an introductory letter to
(33:27):
uh guidance on who you need tobring to the table to make them
effective and brandinginformation and all kinds of
things that can make make theseteams a lot more successful.
SPEAKER_00 (33:37):
Is LinkedIn the best way to contact you?
SPEAKER_01 (33:40):
Yeah, I think that's that's really the only only
social media that I have much todo with, and uh that's probably
the best way.
SPEAKER_00 (33:47):
Okay.
I'll include that link in the inthe show notes then uh if anyone
does want to get in contact withyou.
Um so just wrapping up, is thereany major message that you would
like to leave as a lastingimpression for listeners?
SPEAKER_01 (34:04):
Um well for survivors and and victims, I
would I would say look, there'sa way out of this.
There are people in your in yourcommunity that are standing by
to help you.
And I'm doing my best, my agencyis doing its best to educate all
(34:25):
of our all of our members thatunderstanding that for most uh
we know that statistically ittakes about seven violent
occurrences before a victimactually gets out of those kinds
of relationships.
And we we don't know whichnumber we're there on.
So we're always gonna leave withsaying, look, I understand
you're not ready to get outright now for a plethora of
(34:47):
reasons, uh that the which is awhole other podcast.
Um, but we understand thedynamics.
And when you are ready, it maynot be me who's here, but
somebody from my agency is gonnabe here to help you get out
safely.
We're gonna we're gonna leaveyou with a safety plan.
Uh, we're gonna leave you withuh with contact information for
(35:08):
the the victim services that areoffered in our community, and
we're gonna do our best to tohold offenders accountable.
And don't don't give up hope.
We'll we're gonna help you getout of it.
SPEAKER_00 (35:21):
Thank you so much, Eric.
I it's I think it's really niceto hear that law enforcement is
on our side.
Uh victims, I think, are afraida lot of times that they're not
going to be advocated for.
So it's really, really nice tohear that there are these teams,
that there are all of thesesoldiers on the ground that are
working to make this a safer,um, better experience.
SPEAKER_01 (35:45):
Thank you.
I appreciate it.
Thanks for having me on theshow.
SPEAKER_00 (35:48):
Thank you so much.
Thank you again, Eric, forjoining me today.
And thank you, Warriors, forlistening.
I've included the links toEric's one in three profile as
well as his LinkedIn profile inthe show notes.
I will be back next week withanother episode for you.
Until then, stay strong.
And wherever you are in yourjourney, always remember you are
(36:13):
not alone.
Find more information, registeras a guest, or leave a review by
going to the websiteonein3popcast.com.
That's the number one.
I am the numberthreepodcast.com.
Follow one in three onInstagram, Facebook, and Twitter
at one in three podcast.
(36:33):
To help me out, please rememberto rate review and subscribe.
One in three is a point of fivePinoya production.
Music written and performed byTim Crumb.
Hi Warriors and welcome to One in Three.
I'm your host, Ingrid.
Today is October 1st and marksthe official start of Domestic
Violence Awareness Month.
This year's theme, as shared bythe Domestic Violence Awareness
Project, is With SurvivorsAlways.
It's a powerful reminder thatsurvivors deserve safety.
(00:22):
Survivors deserve support.
And survivors deservesolidarity.
I am honored to be joined todayby Captain Eric Thrillkeld, who
has dedicated much of his careerto advocating for domestic
violence victims.
Here's Eric.
Hi, Eric.
Thank you so much for joining metoday.
SPEAKER_01 (00:42):
Of course.
SPEAKER_00 (00:44):
So before we get into our conversation, could you
give a bit of a background ofyourself so the listeners can
get to know you a bit?
SPEAKER_01 (00:51):
Sure.
So I've been in law enforcementfor over 30 years.
I started my career in NewMexico in a small city and that
I actually, the same town I wentto high school in, eventually
worked my way up to Albuquerque,New Mexico, where I worked for
several years with the policethere.
I spent several years inColorado Springs with the El
(01:15):
Paso County Sheriff's Office,which is kind of where I got my
really strong interest in thistopic of domestic violence.
I had an opportunity to join aspecialized team there called
the Domestic Violence EnhancedResponse Team, which was a
multidisciplined group of peoplehandling the most lethal cases
in a two-county area.
(01:36):
I took that experience and wentoverseas with the United Nations
police in 2000 with uh in Kosovoand kind of parlayed that
experience with domesticviolence into what I was doing
there, training police uh at thepolice academy in Kosovo.
And then I I uh was the directoror the chief of the domestic
(02:00):
violence program for thecountry.
Um the country was broken upinto five regions, and we had
international police in eachregion who and our goal, our
world goal was to train localpolice officers to take over.
And went from Kosovo toMacedonia, North Macedonia, with
the organization for securityand cooperation in Europe, uh,
(02:22):
where I trained uh policeleaders, community leaders uh on
Western standards of modernpolicing, a lot on community
policing-oriented projects anddomestic violence training as
well.
Uh eventually came back to theUnited States, worked for the
Federal Law Enforcement TrainingCenter for a while, uh, again
(02:43):
focusing on domestic violence.
And now I've been with the EddieCounty Sheriff's Office for
about 14 years.
Uh, started out in patrol andworked my way up to captain, all
of which has been uh detective,patrol detective, sergeant,
lieutenant, and captain all inthe detective division.
And we're an agency of about 80sworn positions, and um I
(03:08):
oversee, I'm still overseeingthe detective division and um
the divert program.
I've created a helped to createa divert program here as well.
SPEAKER_00 (03:18):
So do all law offices have a domestic
violence, like do they havedomestic violence training as
part of their system, or is thatsomething that's specific and
depends on how remote they are?
SPEAKER_01 (03:32):
So every academy has some domestic violence component
to it, but it's it's woefullyinadequate for doing thorough
investigations.
The average that I've seenaround the country is about 16
hours of training for out of thewhole academy.
So it's it's imperative thatagencies do more advanced
(03:52):
training once officers get outof basic training, they start
working in the field.
And a lot of that comes throughthe the field training program
of actually responding to calls.
It's you know, trial by fire, ifyou will.
Uh but I in my view, that reallyshouldn't be the case.
We should be have really reallywell-rounded, well-trained
(04:15):
officers uh before they actuallygo on the street and start
responding to these calls forfor various reasons.
One, they're extremely dangerousto everybody involved, including
the officers who are responding.
Um, but it what your thatinitial response uh oftentimes
makes or breaks if the case isgoing to be successful, if
(04:37):
you're gonna save someone's lifeor not, uh, and and puts victims
and and and offenders andchildren on the right or wrong
path, depending on how youaddress it and at that from the
very first call for service.
SPEAKER_00 (04:51):
So I'm actually I was planning on going in a
different order, but uh, sinceyou're talking about danger, a
lot of people are talking aboutmass shootings, and that's
always sort of on the top ofeveryone's brain.
There's a strong link between ahistory of domestic violence uh
and mass shootings.
Is that correct?
SPEAKER_01 (05:10):
Sure.
Um actually actuallystatistically, uh about over 50%
of mass shootings that occurredin our country have a domestic
violence nexus.
Uh you can go back to most ofthem and find that your suspect
is either as is either adomestic violence abuser that
grew up in an abusive home andand witnessed a lot of domestic
(05:32):
violence, um you you will seethat uh it's a it's an ongoing
theme.
And if you go all the way backto the first recorded mass
shooting that that we had in theUnited States, I believe it was
1966 at the University of Texas,uh, where the subject climbed up
on a tower and started shootingstudents with a high-powered
(05:54):
rifle.
He killed his wife and and uhmother before coming to that
that scene.
So and there's plenty of otherexamples.
Uh Dylan Roof uh witnessed yearsof abuse by his stepfather
against his mother.
Um you look at the PulseNightclub shooting, uh the
offender in that, uh, thedocumented history of
(06:14):
strangulation against his wife.
So it there's plenty ofevidence.
Uh, and and one of the things Ifocus on in the training that we
do with officers is if if you'rebe aware of that when you go
into these situations, not onlyfor mass shooting, but for
suspects who strangle theirtheir uh victims, officers are
(06:35):
at a much higher increased riskof being hurt or killed by those
suspects if they're stranglers.
SPEAKER_00 (06:43):
Yeah, I remember reading, and I don't know the
exact uh statistics, that it wasaround 75 to 80 percent of
officer um involved homicidewhere they were the the person
who was killed um from adomestic violence offender who
had previously strangled theirintimate partner.
Um so you had mentioned beforemultidisciplinary teams.
(07:06):
What does that exactly mean?
SPEAKER_01 (07:09):
So it depends on on which context you look at it.
Uh so you probably heard of theterm um a CRC community response
uh community response team,community, there's different
acronyms for it, but which issort of a multidisciplined group
of people who get together on aregular basis and review sexual
(07:30):
assault crimes and domesticviolence-related crimes.
Or maybe maybe they haveseparate teams and they have one
for each issue.
Uh, but you bring to the tableuh the medical expertise, for
example, probably have a medicaldoctor on that team, a
prosecutor or two.
Uh in best case scenarios,you'll have a judge or two, uh,
you'll have law enforcement,you'll have um nonprofit victim
(07:53):
advocates, for-profit, notfor-profit, but uh victim
advocates who are attached tolaw enforcement agencies or
prosecution's prosecutors'offices, and uh probation and
parole.
Um anybody who has a hand in thein the making and dealing uh
with domestic violence,offenders and victims in the
(08:13):
community can be part of thisgroup.
And I've seen lots of differentexamples of how they how they
function.
Uh some of them can be verydetail-oriented, some are
looking at looking at thingsfrom a broader perspective.
Um you you have some that um aredoing case reviews and deciding
(08:38):
as a group how they might bestassist this the families or the
people that are involved inthese cases.
They can be really effective.
Um they're hard topic to holdtogether.
Uh you've got to bring decisionmakers to the table in those
things.
Um, for example, uh a chief ofpolice sending a patrol officer
(09:00):
to those teams is it gonna bevery effective?
Because you've got to havesomebody there when they're when
they're talking about policy umchanges, um, changes in
protocols.
It's gotta be somebody inposition who can say, yes, we
can do that.
Um and it it's uh kind of likeherding cats and getting all
those people to the table on ona regular basis.
(09:21):
And and it making those teamsself-sustainable where it's not
all contingent on the uh thecoordinator uh to hold it all
together.
Um I've seen teams where acoordinator uh leaves for one
reason or another and the thewhole thing just kind of falls
apart.
But they could they can be setup and and programmed well and
to to carry on no matter who's auh who the coordinator is.
(09:45):
And uh they're very effective.
Yeah, uh another another form ofa multidiscipline approach is a
specialized domestic violenceunit uh like would be most
likely within a policeorganization.
Um the one I worked in inColorado, the the work team
there was housed off-site.
It was not housed within apolice agency.
(10:06):
Uh the that the leap the uhdirector of the program was
actually a civilian position,which was unique for me.
I'd never experienced thatbefore.
But um they had a lot of fundingfrom VAWA, uh the Violence
Against Women Act to pay for allof this uh the over time and the
the building that we were in,and electric bill and all of
(10:27):
that, which was great.
Um, and the team was veryeffective.
It was part of the money thatthe funding they had paid for, a
study that was done to show thatit reduced recidivism.
Uh and but it doesn't existanymore because the funding went
away.
And I I see that as a themeacross the United States.
It's hard to find specializedteams that just focus on
(10:48):
domestic violence.
They are there are some andthere's some really effective
ones.
Um but what I what I tellofficers is all of those people
that make up those teams,they're still in our community.
Um we may not have be all ableto all work out of the same
office, but we if we know who weare, for example, from a from a
(11:08):
law enforcement perspective, ifI identify a prosecutor who I
know is passionate about thesecases, I'm gonna do my best to
make sure they get all my cases.
And um go if I know if I know avictim advocate who's really
passionate about it as well,hopefully they all are, and
we're gonna reach out to them.
Uh we're gonna have maybe haveinformal meetings and kind of be
(11:32):
the squeaky wheel on these casesand making sure that they don't
get lost in the system.
And it's a problem.
Uh we we see here uh thesuccessful conviction on
domestic violence cases in mystate, it's abysmal.
It's less than 10 percent.
And it's you know, it's it'sdistressing.
(11:52):
And we we tend if we're not in aif we're not all working
together in a multidisciplinaryapproach, we there's a lot of
finger pointing.
You know, officers are pointingtheir fingers at the
prosecutors, well, you dismissthe cases left and right, and
the prosecutors are saying,well, you're not doing thorough
investigations, you're not doingevidence-based investigations,
and uh we can't move forward,uh, we can't find the victim,
(12:13):
the victim's uncooperative.
There's a there's all these uhgaps, and having a uh a team can
really mitigate those.
But it's it does take a lot ofwork.
SPEAKER_00 (12:26):
Well yeah, I imagine a victim is less likely to be
found or be cooperative if theydon't have faith in the system
that they're actually there toadvocate for them.
So it's almost even if you got ateam together, and then even if
it disintegrated over time,you're still opening those lines
of communication with eachother, like how you mentioned
you can con you know whatprosecutor to look for.
(12:50):
There's a big disconnect you andI had been talking about
previously in education for theproviders throughout like all
the different um specialties andpositions of receiving the
education on domestic violenceand actually putting it into
practice.
And you know, I'm a nursepractitioner, I'm not really in
(13:11):
the hospital anymore to, and I Iwas never somebody who dealt
directly with domestic violencevictims, but we always had to
have annual competencies just incase we did happen to come upon
somebody who uh we would suspectdomestic violence, but I can say
that I probably was not umprepared enough to actually
(13:33):
really pick up on those.
SPEAKER_01 (13:35):
Yeah, that's a good point.
Um if I look at education onnon-fatal strangulation as an
example, um nurses typicallydon't get that training in
nursing school, and doctorsaren't getting it in medical
school.
So it's it's tough for if youhave a detective or patrol
(13:56):
officer who's working astrangulation case to come to a
doctor in the emergency room andsay, hey, uh this is what I
learned.
Uh we really need a CT scan onthis.
And doctors are like, What?
You're trying to tell me how todo my job.
And you're like, no, I so wehave we have tools for them.
We have uh we have some trifoldcards that we educate officers,
(14:17):
hey, this is something you cangive to a physician and say,
look, this is the gold standard.
Uh not not my idea.
This is other medicalprofessionals who've decided
this is the best way to uh givethorough exams on those kinds of
cases.
That can be really helpful.
And so educating, bringing thosepeople into the fold in your C
in your uh response teams isessential uh to make sure they
(14:41):
all understand.
Paramedics is another example.
Um they're great resources.
Victims will tell paramedicsthings that they're not ever
gonna say to the police, butparamedics write reports.
But if they don't understand thesigns and symptoms of
strangulation, uh they may notask the right questions.
And often victims aren'tvolunteering that.
You gotta you gotta ask.
unknown (15:03):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (15:03):
And so let's talk about non-fatal strangulation
for a second because thoseindividuals don't you can't
necessarily tell somebody's beenstrangled just based on the
outward appearance.
SPEAKER_01 (15:14):
Right.
Yeah, so we know about whatabout half the time you're gonna
you're gonna have visiblebruising.
And only about 15% of the timeare you gonna see bruises that
are significant enough to getdecent photographs that might be
able to use as evidence.
Uh so we we the absolute and andso at half the time you're not
(15:34):
gonna see anything.
So we've got to ask the rightquestions.
We gotta we've got to know uhyou know, are you having
difficulty breathing?
Uh is this person have a raspyvoice, if they've got uh
petichee in the eyes, bloodbloodshot eyes, uh are they uh
lightheaded?
They know if they've lostconsciousness or not, all of
(15:55):
things which can really uhexacerbate the the situation.
Uh but we've got to identifythose those uh markers of
strangulation, and it it takesit takes training and it takes
time to ask those questions.
There's some really goodassessment tools for law
enforcement and for medicalproviders on reminding us what
questions to ask.
(16:17):
Uh we it's it's one of thecrimes that we really want to
know, not just strangulation,but domestic violence in
general.
Asking victims, how did thismake you feel?
Because often in a strangulationcase, a victim's gonna say, I
thought I was gonna die.
We don't have to do that when wego to burglary calls.
(16:38):
People are telling us, I'mangry, I'm upset, someone broke
into my house, I stole my stuff,I want you to put them in
prison.
Um, but on domestic violence,that's generally not the case.
So asking people how how theyfeel is imperative.
SPEAKER_00 (16:54):
It's really also important to identify those
victims because I I believe therisk of lethality following a
non fatal strangulation isextremely elevated.
I um I again I can't rememberthe statistics right off the top
of my 750%.
SPEAKER_01 (17:09):
Okay, I thought it was 750% greater likelihood
you're gonna later be murderedby that person.
And that doesn't mean you'regonna be strangled in death.
It can happen in a plethora ofother ways.
Uh it's just people who usestrangulation as a form of power
and control are much more likelyto kill you.
SPEAKER_00 (17:26):
Right.
Uh so one thing that keepscoming up that I I everything I
keep reading is trauma-informeduh individuals, that you want a
trauma-informed attorney,trauma-informed judge,
trauma-informed law enforcementto really understand what you're
going through.
What is ex what does thatexactly mean?
SPEAKER_01 (17:46):
Um I I guess one way to characterize it is um you've
got to be, you've got to havethere there are specialized
training programs specificallyfor trauma-informed
interviewing, and they'rethey're somewhat lengthy.
And it uh it's probably maybeI'm being a bit optimistic to
think that every officer wouldget a chance to go through
those.
That would be wonderful if theydid.
(18:07):
But there's some basic thingsthat we can all do as far as
taking time to understand thattrauma affects people's
memories, it affects theirresponses to questions and to
different different stimuli thatyou may be experiencing.
And domestic violence is one ofthose.
Uh, if you look at uh non-fatalstrangulation as an example, uh
(18:29):
it's if you've been strangled tounconsciousness, you're gonna
have gaps in your memory.
Uh, there's no no way thatyou're you once you're out,
you're out.
You don't know what happened.
Um so understanding that andunderstanding even if you didn't
lose consciousness, that you'restill going to you may suffer
from memory loss, even long-termmemory loss.
(18:49):
And and understanding thatvictims who have experienced a
significant trauma are notnecessarily going to be your
best uh victim.
Uh they may not tell you thestory in a chronological
fashion, which police officersthat's over trained over and
over again.
Everything's got to bechronological.
(19:10):
And sometimes we try to pushpeople into a box and make them
tell their story in such afashion.
It's not it's not practical.
It's it's going to ruin youryour interview, it's gonna
probably ruin your rapport withthat victim if you're trying to
do that.
So what I what I tell officersis look, we all have body
cameras.
Most all of us do.
(19:31):
Um if you don't, you've got someother kind of recording device.
You're you can go back and referto those recordings if need be,
but let people tell their storywithout interrupting them.
Let them talk tell you whateveris on their mind at that moment.
And it may not be thestrangulation, it might be uh
they're upset about they needtheir car keys back, or what
(19:54):
where did he take the kids, orhow am I gonna pay for this?
And um who knows?
There uh I give you an exampleof a case I worked years ago
where um the district attorney'soffice gave me a call and said,
Hey, we we had a victim of uhdomestic violence come in.
She was upset because her casewasn't being prosecuted, and so
(20:16):
we looked at the police reportand we listened to what she had
to say, and they don't match.
There's lots of informationthat's not in the report.
Could you please take a look atthis?
So I did, and it was a it was areport generated by my agency,
and the sat down with the victimand went back uh to the
beginning, and and what Irealized was that um she had
(20:36):
been strangled and nobody askedher about that.
She didn't she didn't share thatinformation with deputies on
scene.
She did briefly mention it tothe paramedics, she never
mentioned it to the doctor atthe emergency room.
And there was a witness to thatstrangulation who was never
interviewed, her teenagedaughter.
Because when she's telling methis story, she's saying, Well,
(20:59):
I came in and you know, he heput his arm around my throat and
he was punching me and I lostconsciousness, and then he
drugged me across the floor andhe pushed me out the back door.
I think, well, how do you knowall this stuff if you were
unconscious?
And so, oh, my daughter told methat's what happened after I
lost consciousness.
Well, she wasn't mentionedanywhere in the report.
So we've got to interview allthe witnesses because we never
(21:21):
know what people saw or heard.
And it's just an example wherethe paramedics she mentioned
being choked, it was a termshe'd used to the paramedics.
They didn't they didn't pass iton to them to the doctor.
Um, so what what I tellinvestigators is look, if at all
possible, go to the ER with yourvictim, make sure that the that
(21:44):
the ER physician knows that thestrangulation occurred and
encourage them to do a thoroughexam, look for those signs and
symptoms, or ask about the signsand symptoms and look for
internal injuries because theythey very well may be there, and
you're not gonna be able todoctors can't see them either
without specialized equipment,specialized tests.
(22:05):
Um but the the back to thetrauma-informed interviewing, um
just not asking compoundquestions, keeping them simple
and straightforward, lettingvictims tell their story all the
way through withoutinterrupting.
And you can always go back andwalk them through step by step.
SPEAKER_00 (22:23):
So you actually brought up something that uh I
wanted to point out is a lot oftimes when people think of
strangulation, they think ofsomeone coming from the front of
them using their hands toactually put around their neck
and maybe don't even considerthe arm, the I guess the sleeper
holds sort of um as that isactually a form of strangulation
(22:44):
as well.
SPEAKER_01 (22:45):
Sure.
And you can uh uh ligatures area form of strangulation, hanging
is a form of strangulation.
So you can use other your yourarms, your knees, your legs, all
kinds of things that anythingyou can compress someone's
throat with.
And and it's important tounderstand it doesn't it can be
your fingers, it doesn't takemuch pressure at all.
(23:06):
Actually, only about four and ahalf to five pounds of pressure
to cut off the blood flow tosome to a human being.
And to put that in perspective,if you can open the soda can
with your finger, you haveenough strength to strangle
someone.
If you can pull the trigger on apistol, uh you have enough
strength to strangle somebody.
SPEAKER_00 (23:26):
So I mean, I know a victim's not necessarily going
to be thinking of what terms touse if they're speaking to
officers, but is there any arethere any key words or key terms
that somebody would use thatwould kind of raise the the red
flag for an officer who's youknow answering a domestic call?
SPEAKER_01 (23:44):
About strangulation?
About anything that's Oh um Welllooking for I think looking for
signs that someone is in fear,uh looking at and but that may
that can be those can be subtleclues and not not making the
assumption that everyone's gonnabe upset or crying or angry.
(24:06):
Uh some some victims are gonnabe appear completely calm,
completely controlled.
And that may be because they'rethey're basically immune to the
process, and it's a regularoccurrence for them.
Um but we're all humans, we allrespond differently to trauma.
So we can't assume that uh I'veseen officers who have well, she
(24:29):
wasn't upset, she wasn't crying.
I don't know, maybe maybe she'snot being truthful, and that
could be the complete opposite.
So you gotta be open.
Um trying to think of some otherexamples, but separating victims
and suspects is imperative todoing thorough investigations
(24:51):
when you know, but oftentimesthese scenes are very chaotic,
so you have to get things undercontrol before you can be very
effective.
You gotta be you gotta have atleast two officers respond.
One officer is not gonna be ableto do a very thorough interview
because you need to separateyour your people that are
involved visually, alsoauditorily, um, but you gotta
(25:13):
keep your partner in sightbecause officers have to remain
safe.
It's it can be quite complex.
Um but so giving people a spacewhere they feel safe enough to
tell you what's going on is isimperative.
Um I think and and and makingsure that as I said before, all
(25:35):
your witnesses are interviewed,and that includes children, but
I'm not advocating that officersinterview kids on the scene,
especially younger children.
Uh, that takes a specialized uhform of training.
It needs to be a forensicinterview, and that's where that
multidisciplinary team comesinto into focus, because you
you're gonna have to get thosekids to um uh children's
(25:58):
advocacy center where thosethose interviews can be done in
a safe environment.
And if you start interviewingkids and locking them in on a
story, uh you never know thatthe kids are are are very likely
to want to protect one parent orthe other, or maybe both, or
maybe they're telling you whatthey think you want to hear.
Uh, and if you don't havespecialized training on how to
(26:18):
ask non-meaning questions ofchildren, you can really uh
devastate a case.
So get them to to uh forensicinterview.
SPEAKER_00 (26:30):
That's uh actually a very good point, too, because
they they can be swayed easilyor remember things incorrectly
if they're led uh down wrongquestioning.
Um one point I want to take ummake is that it's it is
difficult sometimes to find outwho the victim versus the
perpetrator is, because uh thevictim can typically present as
(26:52):
the crazy one, more emotional.
And then the perpetrator can becalm and charming.
And I think a very good casethat a lot of us uh
non-professionals were able towatch if we watched that
documentary was the Gabby Petitocase when um the police officers
had pulled her over or pulledthem over.
unknown (27:12):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (27:12):
Yeah, that's a that's kind of a classic
example.
Um they you know, I watched mostof that.
Uh and it's one one thing Ithink one tool that we use in my
agency, which I think would haveall agencies ought to use, is
some for some form of alethality assessment tool, a
risk assessment or dangerassessment tool, where you ask a
(27:35):
series of questions that youknow positive answers to are
going to raise red flags on alethality.
And I I guess well, we're nevergonna know in the Gavin Petito
case for sure, but if someonehad asked her, have you ever
been strangled or ever hadsomething put around your
throat?
Uh if she had answered yes, theycould have changed the whole
(27:58):
idea of the combatinvestigation.
Because ultimately that's whather death was ruled, homicide by
strangulation.
Um there was no lethality systemtool done that I saw.
Uh and there are lots ofagencies in the country that
don't have one.
Uh so that that's something Iwould strongly advocate for.
SPEAKER_00 (28:18):
And that's something that I think is pretty easy to
find.
I remember I did a an episodewhere I did discuss a lethality
tool, and I did a simple Googleand I was able to find basic
questions, not necessarilyaffiliated with a specific
place, but I think it was theperson who had designed the
initial lethality assessmenttool that I grabbed a few
(28:38):
questions from.
SPEAKER_01 (28:40):
Right.
Uh Dr.
Jacqueline Campbell is one ofthe premier researchers in this
area.
And there's a couple ofdifferent danger assessments out
there that she was interval increating.
The one we use, uh the Marylandmodel, uh assessment program, is
the one we use.
And I'm not advocating foranyone in particular, but that
(29:01):
it's it's easy, it'sstraightforward.
It reminds officers thequestions that we ought to be
asking in all of these casesanyway.
Uh, for example, as have youever been choked or strangled?
Uh does the offender have accessto weapons?
Is he ever threatened suicide?
Uh, do you have a child that heknows isn't his?
Is he unemployed?
Is he using drugs?
Is he ever threatened suicide?
All those are markers if they'reanswering yes to.
(29:23):
Uh, we we need to be thinking,oh wow, uh, this is scary.
And and sharing that informationwith with the victims that we're
talking about.
Uh it's it's a really powerfultool.
SPEAKER_00 (29:34):
I agree.
Uh so moving on to another topicthat's maybe a bit sensitive uh
is domestic violence.
SPEAKER_01 (29:42):
Yeah, so officer involved with domestic violence
is is problematic.
Um we it it occurs far more thanI would like to admit, uh, being
in law enforcement as long as Ihave, it's it's a bit
disturbing.
But the the The added risk forvictims when your offender is a
(30:03):
law enforcement officer is isreal.
So we've got to be cognizant ofthat.
We have to have comprehensivepolicies on how we're going to
address these cases when theycome to light.
For example, there's a criminalcomponent and there's an
internal affairs component.
And making sure those areclearly separated.
(30:25):
And that in most cases, uh Iwould be opposed to an agency
doing their own criminalinvestigation on a domestic
violence crime or one of theirofficers involved.
I think it would be impaired tofarm that out to uh a
neighboring agency, maybe anattorney general's office or a
state police if it's if if ifyou're a municipal or county
(30:47):
organization.
There are some agencies that areperhaps that are large enough
that they can do that.
Um but I've never worked in oneof those.
I I and I would be suspectwhether how effective that would
be.
But um that's what we do in ourin our agencies.
We would ask an outsideorganization to come in and
handle that.
But and even in those caseswhere it may not rise to the
(31:10):
level of criminal charge, uhthere there needs to be an
internal investigation to makesure that there were no policy
violations and that everythingis as transparent as possible
and that we offer support forvictims, making sure that
they're safe, that their family,that their children are safe.
Um, that we remove firearms fromofficers who are under
(31:32):
investigation for domesticviolence-related crimes is
imperative.
Just having a firearm in yourhome decreases your likelihood
of being killed 500%.
500%.
There's firearms in almost everylaw enforcement officer's home.
They I don't know of any agencywhere you don't take a gun home
with you.
So it's uh it's there.
And we need to make sure thatthose are those weapons are
(31:55):
secured until the investigationis completed.
SPEAKER_00 (31:59):
And so is there anything that like the average
person can do?
You know, uh, you know, I guessmaybe they could find out if
there's any of these domesticviolence, multidisciplinary
teams, or is there anything thatthey the average person can do
to advocate for something uh tobe done in their local area?
SPEAKER_01 (32:19):
Well, if you're really a a champion of this
subject, uh you could talk, tryto start one yourself if if you
want to go that far.
But if if you're not in aposition to do that, uh reaching
out to your chief of yourcommunity or the sheriff in your
community or the the thedistrict attorney's office uh
and and encouraging them to formsuch a group if it doesn't
(32:42):
already exist.
And if it does, see how youcould participate.
Uh some of them have uh acommunity member uh opportunity
for community members to be partof it um and offer input.
But um, you know, I'd be happyto share any information that I
(33:03):
have with people if they want toreach out, you can always
contact me on LinkedIn and umI'll I'll just I'll be very very
easy to share information withyou.
There's there are toolkits outthere on the internet um
specifically for developing uhCRCs and that kind of a
step-by-step process, everythingfrom an introductory letter to
(33:27):
uh guidance on who you need tobring to the table to make them
effective and brandinginformation and all kinds of
things that can make make theseteams a lot more successful.
SPEAKER_00 (33:37):
Is LinkedIn the best way to contact you?
SPEAKER_01 (33:40):
Yeah, I think that's that's really the only only
social media that I have much todo with, and uh that's probably
the best way.
SPEAKER_00 (33:47):
Okay.
I'll include that link in the inthe show notes then uh if anyone
does want to get in contact withyou.
Um so just wrapping up, is thereany major message that you would
like to leave as a lastingimpression for listeners?
SPEAKER_01 (34:04):
Um well for survivors and and victims, I
would I would say look, there'sa way out of this.
There are people in your in yourcommunity that are standing by
to help you.
And I'm doing my best, my agencyis doing its best to educate all
(34:25):
of our all of our members thatunderstanding that for most uh
we know that statistically ittakes about seven violent
occurrences before a victimactually gets out of those kinds
of relationships.
And we we don't know whichnumber we're there on.
So we're always gonna leave withsaying, look, I understand
you're not ready to get outright now for a plethora of
(34:47):
reasons, uh that the which is awhole other podcast.
Um, but we understand thedynamics.
And when you are ready, it maynot be me who's here, but
somebody from my agency is gonnabe here to help you get out
safely.
We're gonna we're gonna leaveyou with a safety plan.
Uh, we're gonna leave you withuh with contact information for
(35:08):
the the victim services that areoffered in our community, and
we're gonna do our best to tohold offenders accountable.
And don't don't give up hope.
We'll we're gonna help you getout of it.
SPEAKER_00 (35:21):
Thank you so much, Eric.
I it's I think it's really niceto hear that law enforcement is
on our side.
Uh victims, I think, are afraida lot of times that they're not
going to be advocated for.
So it's really, really nice tohear that there are these teams,
that there are all of thesesoldiers on the ground that are
working to make this a safer,um, better experience.
SPEAKER_01 (35:45):
Thank you.
I appreciate it.
Thanks for having me on theshow.
SPEAKER_00 (35:48):
Thank you so much.
Thank you again, Eric, forjoining me today.
And thank you, Warriors, forlistening.
I've included the links toEric's one in three profile as
well as his LinkedIn profile inthe show notes.
I will be back next week withanother episode for you.
Until then, stay strong.
And wherever you are in yourjourney, always remember you are
(36:13):
not alone.
Find more information, registeras a guest, or leave a review by
going to the websiteonein3popcast.com.
That's the number one.
I am the numberthreepodcast.com.
Follow one in three onInstagram, Facebook, and Twitter
at one in three podcast.
(36:33):
To help me out, please rememberto rate review and subscribe.
One in three is a point of fivePinoya production.
Music written and performed byTim Crumb.
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