November 19, 2025 • 44 mins
Your brain can remember the past without reliving it—that’s the power of EMDR therapy. In this episode of the 1 in 3 Podcast, Ingrid sits down with licensed therapist Laurel to break down what EMDR is, how it works, and why it’s become one of the most effective trauma therapies for survivors of domestic violence, PTSD, and complex trauma.
We explore how traumatic memories get “red-flagged” in the brain, why hypervigilance sticks around, and how EMDR helps your nervous system finally believe you’re safe. If EMDR has ever sounded confusing, intense, or too simple, this conversation brings together the science, the structure, and real clinical experience to make it clear and accessible.
You’ll learn:
- The eight-phase EMDR model and why preparation and resourcing are essential
- How targeting, bilateral stimulation, eye movements, alternating tones, or butterfly tapping actually reduce distress
- How negative core beliefs, body sensations, and mental imagery anchor traumatic memories
- The truth about common concerns—fatigue, headaches, medication, and myths about EMDR being hypnosis or a “quick fix”
We also dive into complex trauma and C-PTSD, including attachment-informed EMDR, parts work, and the idea of “linchpin memories” that hold entire belief systems like I’m not safe or I’m unlovable. Laurel explains why dissociation may have once protected you, how to build grounding skills that keep you present, and how simple tapping techniques can reinforce positive experiences for long-term resilience.
Whether you’re a survivor exploring trauma therapy, someone curious about EMDR, or a listener searching for a grounded next step in healing, this episode offers a clear, compassionate, and practical guide.
If this episode helped you, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a quick review so others can find it.
Laurel’s Links:
https://www.1in3podcast.com/guests/laurel-roberts-meese/
https://www.laureltherapy.net/
https://www.instagram.com/laureltherapycollective/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzmtQve6GOsJt2z9XZ02nZA
1 in 3 is intended for mature audiences. Episodes contain explicit content and may be triggering to some.
If you are in the United States and need help right now, call the national domestic violence hotline at 800-799-7233 or text the word “start” to 88788.
Contact 1 in 3:
- Send your emails to 1in3podcast@gmail.com
- Follow on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok @1in3podcast
- Check out the website https://www.1in3podcast.com/
Thank you for listening!
Cover art by Laura Swift Dahlke
Music by Tim Crowe
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:24):
Hi Warriors, welcome to One and Three.
I'm your host, Ingrid.
Today we're diving into apowerful healing modality that's
been changing lives.
EMDR therapy.
Joining me is my guest Laurel, alicensed therapist, who's going
to walk us through what EMDR is,how it works, and why it can be
(00:44):
such an effective tool fortrauma recovery.
Here's Laurel.
Hi Laurel, thank you for joiningme today.
unknown (00:52):
Hi.
SPEAKER_00 (00:53):
So before we get into our topic, I would like to
for you to give a backgroundjust so listeners can get to
know you a little bit.
SPEAKER_02 (01:00):
Yeah, well, as therapists go, I'm kind of uh
one of the weirdos in that Ialways knew this was the plan
for me.
That I always knew that I wasgoing to be involved in helping
people build their and identifytheir resilience, tell and
reframe their story, and reallymake the journey from victim to
(01:23):
survivor in some capacity.
And I knew this at age 12 afterI had my first therapy session.
And that, you know, I know veryfew people that are still on
plan A, my father being one ofthe only other people, because
most of us have many careers inour lifetime.
Um, but you know, knowing thatearly on, um, all the choices
(01:45):
that I was making as a youngadult were putting me on this
path towards being a therapistand having this trauma
specialty.
And I think that's probably themost important thing for people
to know because it feels likethe most salient part of my
professional identity is likethis was plan A and no regrets
at all.
SPEAKER_00 (02:04):
Yeah.
That's crazy because at 12, Idon't I don't know that I even
thought about the future at all.
And I know that I'm I laugh atmyself because I went just I
went on to become a nursepractitioner.
But at one point in one of theyearbooks, I put that my goal
was to be a housewife.
(02:25):
So that was even after 12 yearsold.
So it's pretty amazing that youalready knew.
SPEAKER_02 (02:31):
I think I've always been a future-oriented person,
which sometimes pulls me out ofthe present moment, which is not
always a good thing.
So aiming for more mindfulness.
SPEAKER_00 (02:43):
Right.
I can relate to that.
I'm always looking toward thefuture too.
So okay.
And is there a specific area oftherapy that you were going for
that you definitely wanted toget into?
SPEAKER_02 (02:56):
Um I had to dabble a bit because you don't know till
you've done it if it's yourthing.
So uh in graduate school, I youyou have to do a bunch of
different placements, much likenursing, I assume you kind of
do, you know, rotations.
And um, I worked in a familymedical clinic, which in
(03:16):
California there's the publichealth insurance.
So working with low-incomefamilies and kids, working in a
middle school as the therapist.
And that I I did have someregrets then.
I was like, I don't know if Ishould have become a therapist.
Like middle school is rough.
But then I started working withadults, and I'm like, oh no,
this is great.
I love this.
It's it's just those middleschool years are rough.
SPEAKER_00 (03:39):
Oh yeah.
I have I have two middle schoolboys right now.
So yes, I can't.
SPEAKER_02 (03:45):
But um even before I was in graduate school, um, I I
knew this was the path.
And so I was a psych major andlike looking at um wanting to
get some more hands-onexperience.
And I ended up doing aninternship at the local rape
crisis center.
Um, we don't call them thatanymore.
We usually give them a littlebit more of a kind of vague
(04:08):
name, but you know, it was rightacross the street from my
college.
I had a great relationship withthe person that was supervising
and training me there.
And that really set me on thepath towards working
specifically with trauma andhaving somewhat of a niche in
sexual trauma.
SPEAKER_00 (04:25):
I imagine that's a very specific niche.
Um, not a lot of peoplespecialize in those areas.
SPEAKER_02 (04:33):
But I also feel like it shouldn't be because, you
know, one in three.
SPEAKER_01 (04:38):
Right, right.
SPEAKER_02 (04:39):
And, you know, if you're a therapist worth your
salt, you have to be trained intrauma.
And if you work with, I mean,I'm not even gonna say women,
like you're going to encountersexual trauma on your caseload.
So I feel like I think probablya lot of therapists are have
some skill.
It's just not something thatthey've sought out like specific
(05:02):
training and had specificexperience around hospital
accompaniment and like the kindof initial crisis period right
after a trauma.
But, you know, many of ourclients come in with sexual
trauma.
SPEAKER_00 (05:16):
Do you have you ever, even in your training or
or now, have you had to go intohospitals or get calls or
anything from emergencies?
SPEAKER_02 (05:24):
Very briefly, yes.
I I I only went in a couple oftimes.
Um, but I'm really glad that Ihad that experience.
I think it helps to have thatkind of like immediate aftermath
experience to understand thatlike there's no normal in terms
of how someone acts or behavesor thinks.
(05:46):
Like there would be people whowould be like laughing the whole
time they were in the hospital,and some people who were
completely dissociated, andthere's some people who were
like just so overwhelmed or likebeside themselves, and and all
of those are normal and okay.
Right.
So just understanding that yougo into a part of your brain
that is just you know reptilian.
SPEAKER_00 (06:08):
Oh yeah.
And the people say that all thetime, you know, everyone is
always judging how others reactto different traumatic events,
you know, especially the onesthat the big news ones.
Um do you do people refer to youlike if you are a therapist and
you're seeing somebody and thenyou realize that this trauma
might be too much for me, I needto refer them out to someone who
(06:32):
specializes more?
SPEAKER_02 (06:34):
Sometimes, yeah.
Um I mean, trauma tends tomanifest in a way that like it's
very rare that it would justlike suddenly be uncovered
because there would be symptomsthat would be showing up in
relationships or sleep orsomething like that we can kind
of tell.
(06:55):
So it would be pretty rare thatit would surprise a therapist
after they've already beenworking with them for a while.
And um, but what I do see a lotof in my practice, and I
actually have um multipleclinicians in my practice, we've
just a very small little group,and we all specialize in EMDR
therapy, which is totallyresearch-backed, looks and feels
(07:21):
totally weird, but it it doeswork.
And we do get a lot of peoplethat refer to us for adjunct
EMDR work.
So they'll be doing talk therapywith someone else and then
coming for this very specifictype of trauma processing with
us.
So, yes, that we definitely getplenty of referrals for because
(07:43):
it's there's so much researchspecifically on EMDR for sexual
trauma, um, that like you don'twant to just be throwing
spaghetti at the wall.
Like you want to try somethingthat's like very likely to work
on the first try.
SPEAKER_00 (07:58):
Yeah.
And I'm I'm glad that people arereferring out to it and not
trying to just, you know, watcha YouTube video and go and jump
in and say, I can do it.
SPEAKER_02 (08:07):
It's actually a very nuanced modality.
Like it looks very simple on theoutside, but like the
neurobiology of trauma and howdo you actually rewire the
brain, yeah, that that's that'sgonna be more than watching a
YouTube video.
Right, right.
SPEAKER_00 (08:24):
Um, okay, so let's let's talk about EMDR because it
is so detailed.
Um, I I did it twice.
Same therapist, uh two differentmemories, but um, and did it, it
was amazing.
So yeah, let's let's talk aboutit.
SPEAKER_02 (08:39):
Yeah, I love it.
I love it because it feels Imean, it feels so good as a
provider to have something thatis so effective that people can
often see like pretty tangibleresults quickly, and that
actually allows them to likejust feel free, to feel like
(09:00):
they are like not carrying itaround with them anymore.
It's not that it's like we'veerased the memory and it's like
that eternal sunshine of thespotless mind.
It's not that, it's just likewhat happened was not okay, and
I'm okay now, even though thathappened.
That's what EMDR does, liketruly on like a body level,
(09:21):
feeling that way.
I'm okay even though thathappened.
So yeah, I love talking about itbecause it's it's incredible.
SPEAKER_00 (09:30):
Well, and so you mentioned rewiring the brain.
So can you talk a little bitabout what trauma does and then
what EMDR hopes to do, I guesswhen you're when you're doing
EMDR?
SPEAKER_02 (09:43):
Yeah, yeah.
So interrupt me at any time thatI start using like jargon.
Okay.
I'm gonna try and explain itlike really simply.
So when something that is a realor perceived threat to your
safety or your livelihood oryour kind of homeostasis
happens, the brain categorizesit differently.
(10:06):
It flags it and says, Oh, thisis something important.
We need to remember this.
So it's kind of like putting abig, you know, red flag on this
memory because we need toremember this to protect you in
the future.
And so you become hyper-vigilantbecause of this.
And that hyper-vigilance, it'sexhausting, it interrupts your
(10:29):
sleep, it disrupts yourrelationships, and it can, I
mean, I don't need to telllisteners how you know
disruptive trauma can be.
But if you're thinking if youkind of have this like
cartoonish visualization of thebrain, that there are these
memories that have these big redflags on them, you're gonna
devote disproportionateresources to those memories.
(10:52):
Even if something is likely tonever happen again, the brain is
like, this is still important,this is still important, right?
And what EMDR does is basicallylike take the red flag off of
that memory and be like, youknow what?
Yes, we needed this informationto protect us and to get through
(11:12):
at the time.
And we can also store this withall the other memories because
we don't need your body tosuddenly get totally like jacked
up and activated every time youthink about this.
That's no longer necessary.
So it really cuts that tiebetween the memory and that like
physiological reaction that youhave.
(11:32):
So you can think about somethingupsetting and feel physically
neutral.
That's what EMDR can do bystoring the memory in multiple
places in the brain rather thanjust in that one flagged spot.
SPEAKER_00 (11:49):
Okay, so it like it sprinkles it out.
Yeah.
unknown (11:51):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (11:52):
And it ties it to other memories that are somewhat
neutral to positive.
So I like to say we create theselittle trauma islands, and once
we find ourselves on traumaisland, it's hard to get off
that island.
And EMDR either like gives you aboat or like builds bridges so
(12:12):
that anytime you end up on theisland, you can get off the
island with no problem.
You don't feel trapped andscared.
SPEAKER_00 (12:21):
Now, there's a little bit of work you need to
do before you jump into EMDR.
Yeah.
To right.
SPEAKER_02 (12:26):
Yes.
And actually for some people,it's a lot of work.
But um, and this is actually thenumber one red flag that I would
say if you're doing EMDR andyour therapist skips this,
that's a big problem.
I totally understand the desireto get to the cool part of EMDR,
which is the reprocessing, whichis the thing with the eye
(12:47):
movement or the tapping or thebeeping or whatever bilateral
stimulations being used, whichwe can talk about.
But I get people wanting to getto the part where they're
actually going to see someresults.
But the problem is if you've notdone the prep work and you don't
yet have coping skills to handlethe intensity of EMDR, because
(13:08):
EMDR hinges on you being able tofully access what happened
without it being kind of mutedor pushed away to like really
sit with the discomfort of thememory.
If you have not prepared at alland you have no coping skills
and self-soothing strategies,EMDR is going to be too intense
and you're likely to drop outand not want to continue and not
(13:29):
see the benefit.
So that preparation andresourcing phase, which EMDR has
eight phases, and that's phaseone and two.
And some people think, oh yeah,I'll just come in and we'll like
talk for a few minutes and thenI'll move my eyes and then the
trauma will go away.
No, no.
unknown (13:46):
No.
SPEAKER_02 (13:47):
It I would say it's it's not super common, but um,
we definitely have had people inour practice that we spend a
year on those first two phases.
Because um, with complex trauma,with relational trauma,
particularly complex childhoodtrauma, you're not gonna have
those coping skills ready to go.
(14:09):
And it's gonna be way toodifficult to just okay, let's
talk about all your trauma.
That's gonna be a reallynegative experience.
So it is uncommon to spend thatlong, but I've definitely seen
it a handful of times in the uh,let's see, almost seven years
that I've been doing EMDR.
SPEAKER_00 (14:30):
Okay.
And can you talk what happenswhen you get to the point of
EMDR?
SPEAKER_02 (14:38):
The the processing.
Yes.
So um first you do what's calledtargeting, which is you you talk
about the memory.
Now, you don't have to be superdetailed in what you tell your
EMDR therapist.
So if there's something thatfeels like, yeah, I just can't
say it out loud, but it's verypresent in my mind and I'm very
(14:59):
much with it, then then that'sokay.
But to to fully targetsomething, you access the memory
and then you identify thenegative thought, the emotions,
the body sensations, and thevisuals that go with it.
And um, please don't do this athome.
You cannot self-EMDR.
SPEAKER_00 (15:19):
No.
SPEAKER_02 (15:20):
And then the therapist talks you through a
series of exercises whilethere's either tapping or
beeping or a light that youfollow.
Uh, and over time the intensityof the feeling around that
target goes down.
And if it doesn't go down,you're not doing anything wrong.
(15:40):
Your therapist needs to figureout what what the stuck piece
is.
Um, because in an uncomplicatedEMDR scenario, let's say I'll
pick one that's unlikely toresonate with with listeners.
Let's say uh a college athletehas an injury and they the their
target is like lying on thefield looking up and like their
(16:03):
they can they know that theirACL is torn or something.
And um they come into EMDRtherapy and uh the disturbance
they feel when thinking aboutlying on the field um is like an
eight out of 10.
And then over time, over severalsessions, it gets down to a
(16:25):
zero.
And they can truly access thememory.
They still remember it.
They often say it's fuzzier,it's harder to access.
They're like, Yeah, I mean, Iknow I was on the field, I know
the grass was green, I know myteammates were there, but like I
it's it's a lot blurrier to menow.
And they can think about it andbe like, yeah, but I'm still
here in this room and like I'mactually kind of hungry and
(16:47):
thinking about what I want tohave for dinner, which usually
when we think about a trauma,like we get hijacked back into
the trauma.
So it can go from a 10 down to azero, and that's the goal.
Now, always be honest with yourEMDR therapist.
Don't just say it's going downto a zero because you think it
should.
Like, be honest about the levelof disturbance that you feel.
(17:09):
Um, and that's of course a verytextbook case.
It goes from a 10 to a zeroimmediately, and it's definitely
not usually within one session.
Um, although sometimes.
unknown (17:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:23):
I uh I remember my therapist asked how familiar I
was with EMDR before we started.
And I said, I'm a little bit,but the way my brain works is it
will put a stop to anything if Ican figure out what's supposed
to happen.
So I said, give me what I needto know.
And but don't go into too muchdetail because otherwise my
(17:43):
brain's just going to be like,no, we're not doing this.
And you know, at first, goodinsight.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, I know my brain's a pain inthe butt a lot of times.
Um, but I remember when westarted at first and and she did
the finger movement back andforth.
And I remember watching and Iwas like, this is ridiculous.
SPEAKER_02 (18:04):
I know.
Oh, it to I still feel that way,and I've been an EMDR therapist
for years.
SPEAKER_00 (18:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (18:10):
It it's totally bizarre.
It is so bizarre.
You you're gonna do what?
And it's gonna make my trauma goaway.
Like it takes a lot of blindfaith.
And for people who, you know, iftheir trauma is, you know, a 10
out of 10, that is a big ask tolike be that uncomfortable in a
room with a therapist, andthey're waving their hand saying
(18:31):
it's gonna make it like it, it'sabsurd.
SPEAKER_01 (18:34):
It looks and sounds absurd.
SPEAKER_00 (18:36):
Yeah, it really is.
And I remember thinking, like,yeah, yeah, I'm at my trauma and
I'm there.
And I'm like, but I'm notbecause because I'm not I'm
blocking myself, and it took awhile for me to really get into
it, and um it's so emotional,like every single emotion, not
all right away.
(18:56):
This was multiple, multiplesessions, but yeah, yes, it went
through um all sorts ofemotions, emotions that I didn't
even know were there.
Um, but yeah, it was a very,very vivid memory.
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (19:11):
I think one of the strengths of EMDR is that it
puts you into a feeling andreacting state that sometimes we
mentally override, particularly,you know, people that are smart,
academic, you know, driven, thatwe can be a a little cerebral.
And that sometimes gets in theway of our healing.
(19:33):
That if we actually tap intoreactions and our body
sensations, then we're like, ohyeah, yeah, there's something
here.
SPEAKER_00 (19:41):
Yeah.
Well, and that's what she keptsaying.
She's like, that was a lot ofwork that we had to do before we
started EMDR was for me torecognize in my body when I was
feeling certain things.
And that was very strange for mebecause I'm a very head thinker,
you know, everything's from myhead.
And so um tapping into actuallythe the feelings that my body
(20:04):
was experiencing and where in mybody and how to describe it, uh,
that was very strange.
Um, but it is like you said,you're in the present.
So you do have to dive into thatmemory, but you know it's safe
because you're not actuallythere.
SPEAKER_02 (20:21):
Well, and a lot of people don't feel safe because
they they mentally go back intoit and really feel fully in it
and are having a very unsafephysical reaction.
Um, but you can lot you canlogically know you're safe and
not feel safe.
And I don't care if someonelogically knows they are safe
(20:44):
after a trauma.
My goal is to get them tofeeling safe, like actually
believing with their body thatthey're safe.
That's the goal of EMDR.
Because we can all likelogically look around and be
like, yep, I'm in my house.
And and yet, if you were tothink of a car accident you were
in, you would feel like you werein your car and it was
(21:07):
happening, even if you logicallyknow.
So um, so yeah, it is thatdisconnect between what we
logically know is true and whatour body is telling us is true.
And when we have a particularlike mental defense against
bridging that, uh, it it can bechallenging.
(21:29):
And EMDR is really good atoverriding that.
It also sounds uh maybe I Ithink I was picking up on like a
little bit of dissociation thatwas happening.
SPEAKER_00 (21:40):
Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (21:40):
Oh yeah.
Which like no judgment.
In fact, like let's thankdissociation for protecting us
for so long because it is anadaptive coping strategy.
Sometimes we have to dissociateto survive because the intensity
of being in the present momentis unbearable.
So, like, thank goodnessdissociating is an option, and
(22:03):
it can become maladaptive whenit gets in the way of your life
and enjoying like the depth ofquality of relationships and
work and like emotional presencewith things, and it can
interfere with trauma healing.
Because if at the first sign, atthe first sign of trauma you
(22:23):
dissociate, well, yeah, then wereally gotta build up that
toolkit to handle um theintensity of the trauma so that
we don't dissociate because wedo have to be fully present with
it to process it.
SPEAKER_00 (22:36):
Oh yeah.
Um my my therapist had a lot ofwork cut out for her because you
know, I got out of myrelationship and I thought I was
fine.
I was like, oh, that was thatwas easy, you know, and carrying
on life.
And then all of a sudden I waslike, oh, why is why are they
saying that?
Is that my true friendswondering what their intents
(22:57):
were by intentions were by whatthey were saying, and like
nothing was harmful.
And then I realized I'm like, Idon't think I'm okay.
And so I went in, um, and I toldher, I said, Listen, this
happened and it's in a nicelittle box and it's up on a
shelf in my brain.
It's there, I know it's there,but I don't want to take it out
(23:18):
of the box.
I just want to leave it there.
Like, let's just store it away.
And yeah, it was a lot of workbefore we did EMDR.
And then it got to the pointshe's like, Do you want to
consider EMDR?
And um, like when you said thatlight feeling, uh, the second
time we did it was specific tothat um trauma for my
(23:38):
relationship, and it was all ofa sudden just like this heavy
weight just released, and I'mlike, I almost feel like I'm
floating.
This is the weirdest feeling,and I couldn't, I was I had been
crying profusely before, andthen all of a sudden I'm smiling
and I'm like, Whoa, this is thebest feeling.
(23:59):
Yeah, it's incredible.
SPEAKER_02 (24:01):
Um you know, if you had come to me and said, if you
would had come to me as atherapist and said, Hey, uh,
everything's in this neat littlebox, I don't really want to
touch it, I would have said,Would you be okay with me
keeping the box for a littlebit?
SPEAKER_03 (24:17):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_02 (24:18):
And then maybe someday we can open it together,
but pack it up before you leavethe office every time.
And then interestingly, the boxis not needed.
And actually, that's a tool thatwe use in EMDR if we don't
complete a target in a session,which is very common that we
don't complete a target.
We put we imagine putting it ina box, and then I say, Okay,
(24:39):
you're gonna leave the box withme, and then we'll come back to
it next week.
SPEAKER_00 (24:43):
I also like when I went in, I also knew that I that
box had to get opened and I hadto, and I was super, I'm like,
listen, let's do this.
I was that person like, oh,EMDR, yeah, let's do it now.
Am I going to be better like inan hour?
That's awesome.
No, um no.
So are there any side effects?
(25:05):
I don't know if that you wouldcall it side effects, but uh to
EMDR that people should be awareof.
SPEAKER_02 (25:10):
Yeah.
Um, if you're taking any kind ofpsychotropic, actually any
medication, sometimes there canbe interactions.
Um, you know, like I was onceworking with someone who had to
be on beta blockers, and so Ihad to talk to her doctor and we
got like special permission.
Like, don't take a beta blockerbefore EMDR because it'll
prevent you from gettingactivated.
You know, um, so sometimes therecan be like a medication
(25:34):
interaction if you're heavilyusing drugs or alcohol, also can
affect the effectiveness.
But as far as side effects ofEMDR, um I hear what the thing I
hear the most is feeling reallytired or having like a mild
headache.
Um, when I was doing EMDR witheye movements, um, when I was
(25:55):
working primarily in person, Iwas hearing much more headaches
and eye strain.
But um these days I do mostlyeither the beeping or tapping.
Um, it's like a butterfly hug onyourself, and I guide you when
to do it.
Um, and we're not gonna have eyestrain with that because there's
no moving the eyes furiouslyback and forth that was causing
(26:17):
a lot of headaches, uh headachesand eye strain.
But uh headaches are somewhatcommon.
I mean, like you're building newneural pathways, you're gonna be
tired.
That's hard work.
Your body is generating newconnections.
So, so yeah, I would expecttiredness and I would expect
maybe you know, mild headache.
If you have any like really,really notable side effects, um,
(26:41):
talk to your therapist about it.
unknown (26:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:44):
I had, I don't even know if it was my therapist that
told me.
I think it was maybe somebody,an acquaintance that had done
EMDR said that they had reallystrange dreams after that.
And so I was I was allanticipating.
I'm like, oh, I can't wait tosee what my dreams are.
But I did I think I was sofatigued that I didn't dream.
(27:05):
I don't think I I mean I mighthave had some dreams in there,
but nothing that was notable forenough for me to say I had the
weirdest dream.
SPEAKER_02 (27:12):
Um I I do hear about weird dreams, occasionally a
disturbing dream, but you know,we're we're we're stirring
things up, you know, stuff iscoming to the surface.
And um it's very rare that I'veworked with someone who's not
seen some relief from EMDReventually.
SPEAKER_00 (27:35):
Yeah, I I mean I had a huge, a tremendous, tremendous
change.
Um did have you found thateither the eye movement or the
the audio does one work betterthan another?
Or is it does it just vary perperson?
SPEAKER_02 (27:49):
Okay some people are really visual people with a
really visual person.
Um I I might try the eyemovements.
It's a little awkward because Iwork virtually, so for the eye
movements to happen, they wouldhave to be so close up to their
screen that it would feel weird.
Like I like seeing just like thewhites of their eyes.
(28:10):
Oh, that would be so weird.
Um But I always start with thebutterfly tapping, um, just
because uh I can vocally guideit and it also helps people stay
more connected to their body,which I think you can kind of
separate the head out more.
Um, and then the beeping ifpeople are really like, you
know, um sound oriented.
(28:32):
Some be and you know, if it'snot working with one form of
bilateral, um I just tryanother.
Most of the research has beendone on the eye movements, so I
think that a lot of peopledefault to that.
Um, but it's rare.
I I don't think I've had anyonethat didn't respond somewhat
well to um butterfly holdtapping.
(28:55):
And I think because it is in thebody and can ground you in the
present in in a way.
Um yeah, the research would saystart with eye movements, but
that's because that's how allthe initial research was done.
Um Fran Dr.
Francine Shapiro, who discoveredand developed EMDR, um, she was
(29:19):
walking through a park inBrooklyn and thinking about
something upsetting and movingher eyes side to side.
And she found after a while thatshe the upsetting thing wasn't
upsetting.
And she was like, huh, I wonderwhat's here.
And so she spent the rest of hercareer researching what is this
bilateral stimulation and howdoes it affect the way memory is
processed, and from that builtthe protocol for EMDR, which is
(29:44):
what's used today.
SPEAKER_00 (29:46):
Wow, I had no idea.
That is crazy.
So the the eye movement part, itwere they thinking there was a
link, like when you go to sleepand you have, you know, the
rapid eye movement when you'resleeping.
Is there any connection withthat?
SPEAKER_02 (30:00):
I don't know.
Um, but uh what we do know iswhen there's bilateral
stimulation, so side to sidemovement of some kind, it does
help with uh memory kind of likecataloging and and the way that
things are stored.
(30:21):
And I think that this is me.
Just theorizing.
But as we become a more and moresedentary society, I think you
know bilateral movement is lessand less a part of our day.
I think we're seeing more andmore unprocessed trauma coming
up.
We're less in touch with ourbodies, we're not moving very
(30:43):
much.
Uh and uh yeah, there'ssomething there, I think.
SPEAKER_00 (30:48):
Oh, that makes sense.
I'm also thinking that I wish Iwould have known about the
butterfly tap when I was incollege.
Like, would it would it havemade me remember everything for
exams and stuff?
SPEAKER_02 (31:01):
Well, if um if people want to try a resourcing
activity, because obviously wewould never process trauma on a
podcast when I can't see you oryou know, um the can't see
listeners.
Um but you can use the butterflytapping to enhance your access
(31:22):
to positive memories andsensations.
And I actually would recommendthis.
So let's say you like go on areally beautiful hike with a
friend, like that night, justspend some time reflecting on
just that the beauty of the dayand the connection and the views
and like the sun and the animalsand how you felt in your body
(31:45):
moving out in nature.
Spend some time like vividlyrecalling that and tapping side
to side.
That will enhance yourresilience and your ability to
cope, and it will give you wideraccess to those positive
feelings.
SPEAKER_00 (32:00):
Yeah.
And and I always forget thatpeople, not everybody is
watching and that some peopleare listening.
SPEAKER_02 (32:06):
So the the butterfly tap is like your arms are across
each other and you're justtapping holding your shoulders
across your chest and tappingside to side alternately.
SPEAKER_00 (32:17):
Yeah.
Okay.
Um is there anything about elseabout EMDR that you can think
of?
SPEAKER_02 (32:25):
I hear a lot of people ask about like complex
trauma or like, does it work forthings beyond trauma?
SPEAKER_00 (32:32):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (32:33):
And the answer is yes, but you need a skilled EMDR
therapist, like probably onethat um understands attachment
very well, that is doing a verythorough resourcing phase.
I have a clinician like this onmy team who like her specialty
is complex trauma.
And um she it really is aboutlike how do you repair those
(32:57):
early attachment relationshipsthat you didn't get?
How do you kind of give yourselfthe nurturing and the safety
that you never experienced?
So you can with a very strongrelationship with your therapist
and a very skilled therapist whounderstands yeah, we're not just
(33:17):
processing acute incidents here,and that they have kind of a
game plan for how they approachthat.
Um and just in case somebodydoesn't know what complex trauma
is, yeah, it's it's anythingthat occurred like in
relationship with a primarycaregiver or like it kind of
deprived you of a sense ofsafety and stability, and like
(33:41):
knowing there was a nurturingadult there to protect you as a
child.
SPEAKER_00 (33:46):
So that might not even be something that
somebody's aware of right away.
SPEAKER_02 (33:51):
I mean, fish don't notice the water.
I've never heard that it's beenyour normal, if it's always been
your normal, then yeah, you'regonna walk through life feeling
hyper-vigilant, feelingdistrustful of others, feeling
like the only safety is inyourself.
And that's completelyunderstandable in that scenario.
SPEAKER_00 (34:15):
Now, is that EMDR the same as if you're dealing
with a specific trauma, but it'sjust you need somebody that's
more trained into more trained,and they want to also be
incorporating elements of umpotentially like parts work,
internal family systems,attachment theory, tons of
(34:37):
resourcing, and uh there'ssomething else that I'm thinking
of that it just um ran out of mymind.
SPEAKER_02 (34:45):
But they they need to be it's a more creative
approach rather than okay, thismemory, then we're gonna go
through the whole, you know,cycle of it because it is really
complex.
And so the that would be a muchlonger term treatment.
SPEAKER_00 (35:01):
And uh your so your company is called Laurel Cl
Collective.
Laurel Therapy Collective.
Okay, Laurel Therapy Collective.
And is it um your is it allvirtual or do you do it?
SPEAKER_02 (35:11):
All virtual and we can serve people in California
and Florida.
SPEAKER_00 (35:15):
Okay, so how would people get in touch with you?
SPEAKER_02 (35:18):
Yeah, our website is Laureltherapy.net.
SPEAKER_00 (35:20):
Okay, that's easy.
Um, is there anything that youthink that we've missed at all?
SPEAKER_02 (35:26):
No, I don't think so.
SPEAKER_00 (35:28):
I think we covered it.
I think I mean EMDR is great.
Actually, um, just to get intothe history of it, was there any
specific kind of trauma that itwas initially directed toward?
SPEAKER_02 (35:40):
Well, I mean, our understanding of trauma is
evolving.
And a hundred years ago, youknow, people were coming back
from World War I a littledifferent.
And people, so the term shellshock was developed.
And, you know, people thoughtonly combat veterans could
experience trauma.
But then they realized actuallythe next group to be included in
(36:02):
our understanding of trauma wassexual trauma survivors that
they were seeing like, huh,these people that have had
sexual trauma and these peoplewho've been like in active
combat are showing the samesymptoms.
Fascinating.
So then after Vietnam, likeactually like a lot more
research went into studyingtrauma.
But as far as EMDR, they firstused it on combat veterans and
(36:27):
first responders, um, that thesekind of big T, like acute
traumas, even though they're notreally acute, if you're in an
active combat zone, there'sgoing to be multiple traumas all
the time.
But kind of these like um, youknow, discrete periods of time
where it's like, okay, you comeback from your tour of duty, and
then that's like umtheoretically over, but it's
(36:51):
never over.
Um, so they did a lot of earlyresearch on EMDR on combat
veterans and on firstresponders.
And EMDR had gained sometraction by then, but I remember
that after 9-11, a lot of firstresponders were wearing these
little buttons that said EMDR,it's effing magic because it's
(37:12):
not a modality that requires aton of talking about your
feelings.
Like, there's definitely likesome talking about feelings, but
there's kind of an efficiencyand like an economy to it where,
like, you know, like a policeofficer or a firefighter, like
who maybe isn't a therapyperson, might be more
comfortable with it, even thoughit looks and sounds totally woo.
(37:35):
Once you're like, oh, there'sscience behind it.
They're like, Yeah, okay, I wantto be able to go back to work.
SPEAKER_00 (37:39):
Yeah, and it's almost like you you're like an
active participant in it.
I mean, you have to be.
I mean, you're an activeparticipant in all therapy, but
it's like you're really actuallyworking to get to that.
SPEAKER_02 (37:52):
Um you can stop anytime you want.
Like it's not hypnosis, likeyou're not, you do not lose
control at any point.
You might feel really overcomewith emotion or like you know,
overwhelmed, but um, but yeah,you're always in control.
SPEAKER_00 (38:09):
Yeah.
For me, I found, you know, therewould be sometimes I'd, you
know, be there, be wherever, andI'd feel okay.
And then all of a sudden, just awave of emotion would just hit
and I would start crying.
I was like, where did that comefrom?
And um, because yeah, I hadseparated myself from a lot of
it.
SPEAKER_02 (38:28):
Um to survive and adaptive coping.
Exactly.
Your body was telling you maybethis isn't working anymore.
SPEAKER_00 (38:37):
Right.
So, what how does it happen withum like somebody who was in
combat and there's multipleincidents of trauma?
Is do you have to do it for eachindividual one or do you focus
on like a major traumatic?
SPEAKER_02 (38:52):
Yeah.
Not you don't usually have to doeach one.
That's a great question.
Like, do you have to processevery trauma in your life to
experience related art?
The answer is no, you do not.
So most trauma falls in likesomewhat of a chain.
Like we have um we all have likea couple chains, right?
Like that there's, you know, um,like I'll I'll make something
(39:14):
up.
Like you have a chain that isthe I'm not lovable chain.
You have the chain that's I'mnot safe, you have the chain
that's I'm not capable, right?
And then if you can find a spitlike the linchpin memory in
those lines of dominoes thathave been set up, if you can
knock out the right one, it'lltake the rest with them often.
SPEAKER_00 (39:36):
Oh, that's a great description of that.
SPEAKER_02 (39:39):
Yeah.
So, you know, even though I workwith incredible people and a lot
of them very accomplished, verysuccessful, ambitious, and I'm
no longer surprised.
But often if we like are takinglike a feeling state or
something that we're like, yeah,why do why do we have this
(39:59):
thought or this fear that'scoming up?
It goes back to like beingforgotten at school or like
something like that.
Like, you know, these likebadass people.
SPEAKER_00 (40:08):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (40:09):
And this, like, yeah, I was forgotten at school.
I was the only kid there.
I was like sitting in the, youknow, sitting in the I know, I
know.
And you know, these, but thesememories, like we can logically
as adults know, like, yeah, Iwas perfectly safe.
Like my mom had car trouble thatday, but still we go back into
(40:31):
this, like, I'm forgotten, I'malone, you know?
Yeah.
Um, so when we can find it,doesn't have to necessarily be
objectively the worst thingthat's ever happened to you.
It's just that linchpin domino,and taking that one out
eliminates the whole string.
Now, sometimes you have a wholebunch of linchpin dominoes, but
(40:51):
if we tend to have clusters.
So with the combat example, itwould be like, was there a first
or a worst event that happened?
And you would start with thatone and then see if the other
ones fall with it.
SPEAKER_00 (41:07):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (41:08):
Um, and if they don't, it's like, okay, that's
interesting.
I wonder what else is going onhere, and then kind of getting
in there until you until theline falls.
SPEAKER_00 (41:16):
Oh my goodness.
unknown (41:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (41:17):
It has to be exhausting for you too, right?
Like, I feel like I know.
No, no.
I mean, I would need to sleep.
SPEAKER_02 (41:24):
It's so energizing because like I get just enough
sessions a week where there'slike resolution or like a
breakthrough, or like, you know,someone like has like such a
beautiful outcome, and like, youknow, they like unlock a new
part of themselves, like they'rein a new relationship and it's
actually a healthy one, or like,you know, they get a job offer
(41:45):
or like they take a big risk andit pans out.
Like, there's so much of thatthat I'm privy to that I'm like,
yeah, I'm gonna get in therewith you and figure out which of
these we need to clear out sothat you can like live a better
life.
So it's not exhausting at all.
I don't think I have a hard job.
SPEAKER_00 (42:02):
Oh, okay.
Well, that's good because Ithink you have a hard job.
Um, all right.
You already gave the website.
So we have how to get in touchwith you.
Um, do you have any lasting likeuh encouragement or wisdom that
you would like to leave withlisteners?
SPEAKER_02 (42:19):
Yeah.
Um, yes, I definitely do.
First, I want to say if you wantto learn like in a lot more
detail about EMDR, we actuallyhave a free webinar you can
watch at any point on ourwebsite on the EMDR page where
we actually made like a fakeclient and we walked through all
eight phases of EMDR and whatthat looked like for her.
(42:40):
Um, and like what so and it itis the college athlete example
to hopefully not be tootriggering.
So, and we don't go into anylike description of the injury.
Um, but so that's available.
But um, yes, the last thing Iwant to say to people is you're
never gonna feel 100% ready forEMDR.
(43:01):
Like, just like you did.
Like you can come into therapyand say, Hey, I have this like
very locked box and I know Ineed to open it at some point.
Can you help me get ready toopen it?
And the therapist should sayyes, because like you're never
gonna wake up and be like, I amready to face my trauma.
So start when you're almostready, because that's as ready
(43:22):
as you're gonna be.
SPEAKER_00 (43:24):
That's perfect.
That's exactly right.
Well, thank you so much, Laurel,for your time and explaining all
of this.
I think it's such an incrediblemodality that is super, super
helpful.
Um, and I think a lot morepeople should explore it as an
option.
But thank you again for comingon and sharing all that with us.
SPEAKER_02 (43:42):
I'm always happy to talk about EMDR.
SPEAKER_00 (43:45):
Okay, thanks.
Find more information, registeras a guest, or leave a review by
going to the websiteonein3podcast.com.
That's the number one the numberthree podcast.com.
Follow one in three onInstagram, Facebook, and Twitter
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To help me out, please rememberto rate review and subscribe.
(44:09):
One in three is a point fivePanoy production.
Music written and performed byTim Crow.
Hi Warriors, welcome to One and Three.
I'm your host, Ingrid.
Today we're diving into apowerful healing modality that's
been changing lives.
EMDR therapy.
Joining me is my guest Laurel, alicensed therapist, who's going
to walk us through what EMDR is,how it works, and why it can be
(00:44):
such an effective tool fortrauma recovery.
Here's Laurel.
Hi Laurel, thank you for joiningme today.
unknown (00:52):
Hi.
SPEAKER_00 (00:53):
So before we get into our topic, I would like to
for you to give a backgroundjust so listeners can get to
know you a little bit.
SPEAKER_02 (01:00):
Yeah, well, as therapists go, I'm kind of uh
one of the weirdos in that Ialways knew this was the plan
for me.
That I always knew that I wasgoing to be involved in helping
people build their and identifytheir resilience, tell and
reframe their story, and reallymake the journey from victim to
(01:23):
survivor in some capacity.
And I knew this at age 12 afterI had my first therapy session.
And that, you know, I know veryfew people that are still on
plan A, my father being one ofthe only other people, because
most of us have many careers inour lifetime.
Um, but you know, knowing thatearly on, um, all the choices
(01:45):
that I was making as a youngadult were putting me on this
path towards being a therapistand having this trauma
specialty.
And I think that's probably themost important thing for people
to know because it feels likethe most salient part of my
professional identity is likethis was plan A and no regrets
at all.
SPEAKER_00 (02:04):
Yeah.
That's crazy because at 12, Idon't I don't know that I even
thought about the future at all.
And I know that I'm I laugh atmyself because I went just I
went on to become a nursepractitioner.
But at one point in one of theyearbooks, I put that my goal
was to be a housewife.
(02:25):
So that was even after 12 yearsold.
So it's pretty amazing that youalready knew.
SPEAKER_02 (02:31):
I think I've always been a future-oriented person,
which sometimes pulls me out ofthe present moment, which is not
always a good thing.
So aiming for more mindfulness.
SPEAKER_00 (02:43):
Right.
I can relate to that.
I'm always looking toward thefuture too.
So okay.
And is there a specific area oftherapy that you were going for
that you definitely wanted toget into?
SPEAKER_02 (02:56):
Um I had to dabble a bit because you don't know till
you've done it if it's yourthing.
So uh in graduate school, I youyou have to do a bunch of
different placements, much likenursing, I assume you kind of
do, you know, rotations.
And um, I worked in a familymedical clinic, which in
(03:16):
California there's the publichealth insurance.
So working with low-incomefamilies and kids, working in a
middle school as the therapist.
And that I I did have someregrets then.
I was like, I don't know if Ishould have become a therapist.
Like middle school is rough.
But then I started working withadults, and I'm like, oh no,
this is great.
I love this.
It's it's just those middleschool years are rough.
SPEAKER_00 (03:39):
Oh yeah.
I have I have two middle schoolboys right now.
So yes, I can't.
SPEAKER_02 (03:45):
But um even before I was in graduate school, um, I I
knew this was the path.
And so I was a psych major andlike looking at um wanting to
get some more hands-onexperience.
And I ended up doing aninternship at the local rape
crisis center.
Um, we don't call them thatanymore.
We usually give them a littlebit more of a kind of vague
(04:08):
name, but you know, it was rightacross the street from my
college.
I had a great relationship withthe person that was supervising
and training me there.
And that really set me on thepath towards working
specifically with trauma andhaving somewhat of a niche in
sexual trauma.
SPEAKER_00 (04:25):
I imagine that's a very specific niche.
Um, not a lot of peoplespecialize in those areas.
SPEAKER_02 (04:33):
But I also feel like it shouldn't be because, you
know, one in three.
SPEAKER_01 (04:38):
Right, right.
SPEAKER_02 (04:39):
And, you know, if you're a therapist worth your
salt, you have to be trained intrauma.
And if you work with, I mean,I'm not even gonna say women,
like you're going to encountersexual trauma on your caseload.
So I feel like I think probablya lot of therapists are have
some skill.
It's just not something thatthey've sought out like specific
(05:02):
training and had specificexperience around hospital
accompaniment and like the kindof initial crisis period right
after a trauma.
But, you know, many of ourclients come in with sexual
trauma.
SPEAKER_00 (05:16):
Do you have you ever, even in your training or
or now, have you had to go intohospitals or get calls or
anything from emergencies?
SPEAKER_02 (05:24):
Very briefly, yes.
I I I only went in a couple oftimes.
Um, but I'm really glad that Ihad that experience.
I think it helps to have thatkind of like immediate aftermath
experience to understand thatlike there's no normal in terms
of how someone acts or behavesor thinks.
(05:46):
Like there would be people whowould be like laughing the whole
time they were in the hospital,and some people who were
completely dissociated, andthere's some people who were
like just so overwhelmed or likebeside themselves, and and all
of those are normal and okay.
Right.
So just understanding that yougo into a part of your brain
that is just you know reptilian.
SPEAKER_00 (06:08):
Oh yeah.
And the people say that all thetime, you know, everyone is
always judging how others reactto different traumatic events,
you know, especially the onesthat the big news ones.
Um do you do people refer to youlike if you are a therapist and
you're seeing somebody and thenyou realize that this trauma
might be too much for me, I needto refer them out to someone who
(06:32):
specializes more?
SPEAKER_02 (06:34):
Sometimes, yeah.
Um I mean, trauma tends tomanifest in a way that like it's
very rare that it would justlike suddenly be uncovered
because there would be symptomsthat would be showing up in
relationships or sleep orsomething like that we can kind
of tell.
(06:55):
So it would be pretty rare thatit would surprise a therapist
after they've already beenworking with them for a while.
And um, but what I do see a lotof in my practice, and I
actually have um multipleclinicians in my practice, we've
just a very small little group,and we all specialize in EMDR
therapy, which is totallyresearch-backed, looks and feels
(07:21):
totally weird, but it it doeswork.
And we do get a lot of peoplethat refer to us for adjunct
EMDR work.
So they'll be doing talk therapywith someone else and then
coming for this very specifictype of trauma processing with
us.
So, yes, that we definitely getplenty of referrals for because
(07:43):
it's there's so much researchspecifically on EMDR for sexual
trauma, um, that like you don'twant to just be throwing
spaghetti at the wall.
Like you want to try somethingthat's like very likely to work
on the first try.
SPEAKER_00 (07:58):
Yeah.
And I'm I'm glad that people arereferring out to it and not
trying to just, you know, watcha YouTube video and go and jump
in and say, I can do it.
SPEAKER_02 (08:07):
It's actually a very nuanced modality.
Like it looks very simple on theoutside, but like the
neurobiology of trauma and howdo you actually rewire the
brain, yeah, that that's that'sgonna be more than watching a
YouTube video.
Right, right.
SPEAKER_00 (08:24):
Um, okay, so let's let's talk about EMDR because it
is so detailed.
Um, I I did it twice.
Same therapist, uh two differentmemories, but um, and did it, it
was amazing.
So yeah, let's let's talk aboutit.
SPEAKER_02 (08:39):
Yeah, I love it.
I love it because it feels Imean, it feels so good as a
provider to have something thatis so effective that people can
often see like pretty tangibleresults quickly, and that
actually allows them to likejust feel free, to feel like
(09:00):
they are like not carrying itaround with them anymore.
It's not that it's like we'veerased the memory and it's like
that eternal sunshine of thespotless mind.
It's not that, it's just likewhat happened was not okay, and
I'm okay now, even though thathappened.
That's what EMDR does, liketruly on like a body level,
(09:21):
feeling that way.
I'm okay even though thathappened.
So yeah, I love talking about itbecause it's it's incredible.
SPEAKER_00 (09:30):
Well, and so you mentioned rewiring the brain.
So can you talk a little bitabout what trauma does and then
what EMDR hopes to do, I guesswhen you're when you're doing
EMDR?
SPEAKER_02 (09:43):
Yeah, yeah.
So interrupt me at any time thatI start using like jargon.
Okay.
I'm gonna try and explain itlike really simply.
So when something that is a realor perceived threat to your
safety or your livelihood oryour kind of homeostasis
happens, the brain categorizesit differently.
(10:06):
It flags it and says, Oh, thisis something important.
We need to remember this.
So it's kind of like putting abig, you know, red flag on this
memory because we need toremember this to protect you in
the future.
And so you become hyper-vigilantbecause of this.
And that hyper-vigilance, it'sexhausting, it interrupts your
(10:29):
sleep, it disrupts yourrelationships, and it can, I
mean, I don't need to telllisteners how you know
disruptive trauma can be.
But if you're thinking if youkind of have this like
cartoonish visualization of thebrain, that there are these
memories that have these big redflags on them, you're gonna
devote disproportionateresources to those memories.
(10:52):
Even if something is likely tonever happen again, the brain is
like, this is still important,this is still important, right?
And what EMDR does is basicallylike take the red flag off of
that memory and be like, youknow what?
Yes, we needed this informationto protect us and to get through
(11:12):
at the time.
And we can also store this withall the other memories because
we don't need your body tosuddenly get totally like jacked
up and activated every time youthink about this.
That's no longer necessary.
So it really cuts that tiebetween the memory and that like
physiological reaction that youhave.
(11:32):
So you can think about somethingupsetting and feel physically
neutral.
That's what EMDR can do bystoring the memory in multiple
places in the brain rather thanjust in that one flagged spot.
SPEAKER_00 (11:49):
Okay, so it like it sprinkles it out.
Yeah.
unknown (11:51):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (11:52):
And it ties it to other memories that are somewhat
neutral to positive.
So I like to say we create theselittle trauma islands, and once
we find ourselves on traumaisland, it's hard to get off
that island.
And EMDR either like gives you aboat or like builds bridges so
(12:12):
that anytime you end up on theisland, you can get off the
island with no problem.
You don't feel trapped andscared.
SPEAKER_00 (12:21):
Now, there's a little bit of work you need to
do before you jump into EMDR.
Yeah.
To right.
SPEAKER_02 (12:26):
Yes.
And actually for some people,it's a lot of work.
But um, and this is actually thenumber one red flag that I would
say if you're doing EMDR andyour therapist skips this,
that's a big problem.
I totally understand the desireto get to the cool part of EMDR,
which is the reprocessing, whichis the thing with the eye
(12:47):
movement or the tapping or thebeeping or whatever bilateral
stimulations being used, whichwe can talk about.
But I get people wanting to getto the part where they're
actually going to see someresults.
But the problem is if you've notdone the prep work and you don't
yet have coping skills to handlethe intensity of EMDR, because
(13:08):
EMDR hinges on you being able tofully access what happened
without it being kind of mutedor pushed away to like really
sit with the discomfort of thememory.
If you have not prepared at alland you have no coping skills
and self-soothing strategies,EMDR is going to be too intense
and you're likely to drop outand not want to continue and not
(13:29):
see the benefit.
So that preparation andresourcing phase, which EMDR has
eight phases, and that's phaseone and two.
And some people think, oh yeah,I'll just come in and we'll like
talk for a few minutes and thenI'll move my eyes and then the
trauma will go away.
No, no.
unknown (13:46):
No.
SPEAKER_02 (13:47):
It I would say it's it's not super common, but um,
we definitely have had people inour practice that we spend a
year on those first two phases.
Because um, with complex trauma,with relational trauma,
particularly complex childhoodtrauma, you're not gonna have
those coping skills ready to go.
(14:09):
And it's gonna be way toodifficult to just okay, let's
talk about all your trauma.
That's gonna be a reallynegative experience.
So it is uncommon to spend thatlong, but I've definitely seen
it a handful of times in the uh,let's see, almost seven years
that I've been doing EMDR.
SPEAKER_00 (14:30):
Okay.
And can you talk what happenswhen you get to the point of
EMDR?
SPEAKER_02 (14:38):
The the processing.
Yes.
So um first you do what's calledtargeting, which is you you talk
about the memory.
Now, you don't have to be superdetailed in what you tell your
EMDR therapist.
So if there's something thatfeels like, yeah, I just can't
say it out loud, but it's verypresent in my mind and I'm very
(14:59):
much with it, then then that'sokay.
But to to fully targetsomething, you access the memory
and then you identify thenegative thought, the emotions,
the body sensations, and thevisuals that go with it.
And um, please don't do this athome.
You cannot self-EMDR.
SPEAKER_00 (15:19):
No.
SPEAKER_02 (15:20):
And then the therapist talks you through a
series of exercises whilethere's either tapping or
beeping or a light that youfollow.
Uh, and over time the intensityof the feeling around that
target goes down.
And if it doesn't go down,you're not doing anything wrong.
(15:40):
Your therapist needs to figureout what what the stuck piece
is.
Um, because in an uncomplicatedEMDR scenario, let's say I'll
pick one that's unlikely toresonate with with listeners.
Let's say uh a college athletehas an injury and they the their
target is like lying on thefield looking up and like their
(16:03):
they can they know that theirACL is torn or something.
And um they come into EMDRtherapy and uh the disturbance
they feel when thinking aboutlying on the field um is like an
eight out of 10.
And then over time, over severalsessions, it gets down to a
(16:25):
zero.
And they can truly access thememory.
They still remember it.
They often say it's fuzzier,it's harder to access.
They're like, Yeah, I mean, Iknow I was on the field, I know
the grass was green, I know myteammates were there, but like I
it's it's a lot blurrier to menow.
And they can think about it andbe like, yeah, but I'm still
here in this room and like I'mactually kind of hungry and
(16:47):
thinking about what I want tohave for dinner, which usually
when we think about a trauma,like we get hijacked back into
the trauma.
So it can go from a 10 down to azero, and that's the goal.
Now, always be honest with yourEMDR therapist.
Don't just say it's going downto a zero because you think it
should.
Like, be honest about the levelof disturbance that you feel.
(17:09):
Um, and that's of course a verytextbook case.
It goes from a 10 to a zeroimmediately, and it's definitely
not usually within one session.
Um, although sometimes.
unknown (17:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:23):
I uh I remember my therapist asked how familiar I
was with EMDR before we started.
And I said, I'm a little bit,but the way my brain works is it
will put a stop to anything if Ican figure out what's supposed
to happen.
So I said, give me what I needto know.
And but don't go into too muchdetail because otherwise my
(17:43):
brain's just going to be like,no, we're not doing this.
And you know, at first, goodinsight.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, I know my brain's a pain inthe butt a lot of times.
Um, but I remember when westarted at first and and she did
the finger movement back andforth.
And I remember watching and Iwas like, this is ridiculous.
SPEAKER_02 (18:04):
I know.
Oh, it to I still feel that way,and I've been an EMDR therapist
for years.
SPEAKER_00 (18:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (18:10):
It it's totally bizarre.
It is so bizarre.
You you're gonna do what?
And it's gonna make my trauma goaway.
Like it takes a lot of blindfaith.
And for people who, you know, iftheir trauma is, you know, a 10
out of 10, that is a big ask tolike be that uncomfortable in a
room with a therapist, andthey're waving their hand saying
(18:31):
it's gonna make it like it, it'sabsurd.
SPEAKER_01 (18:34):
It looks and sounds absurd.
SPEAKER_00 (18:36):
Yeah, it really is.
And I remember thinking, like,yeah, yeah, I'm at my trauma and
I'm there.
And I'm like, but I'm notbecause because I'm not I'm
blocking myself, and it took awhile for me to really get into
it, and um it's so emotional,like every single emotion, not
all right away.
(18:56):
This was multiple, multiplesessions, but yeah, yes, it went
through um all sorts ofemotions, emotions that I didn't
even know were there.
Um, but yeah, it was a very,very vivid memory.
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (19:11):
I think one of the strengths of EMDR is that it
puts you into a feeling andreacting state that sometimes we
mentally override, particularly,you know, people that are smart,
academic, you know, driven, thatwe can be a a little cerebral.
And that sometimes gets in theway of our healing.
(19:33):
That if we actually tap intoreactions and our body
sensations, then we're like, ohyeah, yeah, there's something
here.
SPEAKER_00 (19:41):
Yeah.
Well, and that's what she keptsaying.
She's like, that was a lot ofwork that we had to do before we
started EMDR was for me torecognize in my body when I was
feeling certain things.
And that was very strange for mebecause I'm a very head thinker,
you know, everything's from myhead.
And so um tapping into actuallythe the feelings that my body
(20:04):
was experiencing and where in mybody and how to describe it, uh,
that was very strange.
Um, but it is like you said,you're in the present.
So you do have to dive into thatmemory, but you know it's safe
because you're not actuallythere.
SPEAKER_02 (20:21):
Well, and a lot of people don't feel safe because
they they mentally go back intoit and really feel fully in it
and are having a very unsafephysical reaction.
Um, but you can lot you canlogically know you're safe and
not feel safe.
And I don't care if someonelogically knows they are safe
(20:44):
after a trauma.
My goal is to get them tofeeling safe, like actually
believing with their body thatthey're safe.
That's the goal of EMDR.
Because we can all likelogically look around and be
like, yep, I'm in my house.
And and yet, if you were tothink of a car accident you were
in, you would feel like you werein your car and it was
(21:07):
happening, even if you logicallyknow.
So um, so yeah, it is thatdisconnect between what we
logically know is true and whatour body is telling us is true.
And when we have a particularlike mental defense against
bridging that, uh, it it can bechallenging.
(21:29):
And EMDR is really good atoverriding that.
It also sounds uh maybe I Ithink I was picking up on like a
little bit of dissociation thatwas happening.
SPEAKER_00 (21:40):
Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (21:40):
Oh yeah.
Which like no judgment.
In fact, like let's thankdissociation for protecting us
for so long because it is anadaptive coping strategy.
Sometimes we have to dissociateto survive because the intensity
of being in the present momentis unbearable.
So, like, thank goodnessdissociating is an option, and
(22:03):
it can become maladaptive whenit gets in the way of your life
and enjoying like the depth ofquality of relationships and
work and like emotional presencewith things, and it can
interfere with trauma healing.
Because if at the first sign, atthe first sign of trauma you
(22:23):
dissociate, well, yeah, then wereally gotta build up that
toolkit to handle um theintensity of the trauma so that
we don't dissociate because wedo have to be fully present with
it to process it.
SPEAKER_00 (22:36):
Oh yeah.
Um my my therapist had a lot ofwork cut out for her because you
know, I got out of myrelationship and I thought I was
fine.
I was like, oh, that was thatwas easy, you know, and carrying
on life.
And then all of a sudden I waslike, oh, why is why are they
saying that?
Is that my true friendswondering what their intents
(22:57):
were by intentions were by whatthey were saying, and like
nothing was harmful.
And then I realized I'm like, Idon't think I'm okay.
And so I went in, um, and I toldher, I said, Listen, this
happened and it's in a nicelittle box and it's up on a
shelf in my brain.
It's there, I know it's there,but I don't want to take it out
(23:18):
of the box.
I just want to leave it there.
Like, let's just store it away.
And yeah, it was a lot of workbefore we did EMDR.
And then it got to the pointshe's like, Do you want to
consider EMDR?
And um, like when you said thatlight feeling, uh, the second
time we did it was specific tothat um trauma for my
(23:38):
relationship, and it was all ofa sudden just like this heavy
weight just released, and I'mlike, I almost feel like I'm
floating.
This is the weirdest feeling,and I couldn't, I was I had been
crying profusely before, andthen all of a sudden I'm smiling
and I'm like, Whoa, this is thebest feeling.
(23:59):
Yeah, it's incredible.
SPEAKER_02 (24:01):
Um you know, if you had come to me and said, if you
would had come to me as atherapist and said, Hey, uh,
everything's in this neat littlebox, I don't really want to
touch it, I would have said,Would you be okay with me
keeping the box for a littlebit?
SPEAKER_03 (24:17):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_02 (24:18):
And then maybe someday we can open it together,
but pack it up before you leavethe office every time.
And then interestingly, the boxis not needed.
And actually, that's a tool thatwe use in EMDR if we don't
complete a target in a session,which is very common that we
don't complete a target.
We put we imagine putting it ina box, and then I say, Okay,
(24:39):
you're gonna leave the box withme, and then we'll come back to
it next week.
SPEAKER_00 (24:43):
I also like when I went in, I also knew that I that
box had to get opened and I hadto, and I was super, I'm like,
listen, let's do this.
I was that person like, oh,EMDR, yeah, let's do it now.
Am I going to be better like inan hour?
That's awesome.
No, um no.
So are there any side effects?
(25:05):
I don't know if that you wouldcall it side effects, but uh to
EMDR that people should be awareof.
SPEAKER_02 (25:10):
Yeah.
Um, if you're taking any kind ofpsychotropic, actually any
medication, sometimes there canbe interactions.
Um, you know, like I was onceworking with someone who had to
be on beta blockers, and so Ihad to talk to her doctor and we
got like special permission.
Like, don't take a beta blockerbefore EMDR because it'll
prevent you from gettingactivated.
You know, um, so sometimes therecan be like a medication
(25:34):
interaction if you're heavilyusing drugs or alcohol, also can
affect the effectiveness.
But as far as side effects ofEMDR, um I hear what the thing I
hear the most is feeling reallytired or having like a mild
headache.
Um, when I was doing EMDR witheye movements, um, when I was
(25:55):
working primarily in person, Iwas hearing much more headaches
and eye strain.
But um these days I do mostlyeither the beeping or tapping.
Um, it's like a butterfly hug onyourself, and I guide you when
to do it.
Um, and we're not gonna have eyestrain with that because there's
no moving the eyes furiouslyback and forth that was causing
(26:17):
a lot of headaches, uh headachesand eye strain.
But uh headaches are somewhatcommon.
I mean, like you're building newneural pathways, you're gonna be
tired.
That's hard work.
Your body is generating newconnections.
So, so yeah, I would expecttiredness and I would expect
maybe you know, mild headache.
If you have any like really,really notable side effects, um,
(26:41):
talk to your therapist about it.
unknown (26:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:44):
I had, I don't even know if it was my therapist that
told me.
I think it was maybe somebody,an acquaintance that had done
EMDR said that they had reallystrange dreams after that.
And so I was I was allanticipating.
I'm like, oh, I can't wait tosee what my dreams are.
But I did I think I was sofatigued that I didn't dream.
(27:05):
I don't think I I mean I mighthave had some dreams in there,
but nothing that was notable forenough for me to say I had the
weirdest dream.
SPEAKER_02 (27:12):
Um I I do hear about weird dreams, occasionally a
disturbing dream, but you know,we're we're we're stirring
things up, you know, stuff iscoming to the surface.
And um it's very rare that I'veworked with someone who's not
seen some relief from EMDReventually.
SPEAKER_00 (27:35):
Yeah, I I mean I had a huge, a tremendous, tremendous
change.
Um did have you found thateither the eye movement or the
the audio does one work betterthan another?
Or is it does it just vary perperson?
SPEAKER_02 (27:49):
Okay some people are really visual people with a
really visual person.
Um I I might try the eyemovements.
It's a little awkward because Iwork virtually, so for the eye
movements to happen, they wouldhave to be so close up to their
screen that it would feel weird.
Like I like seeing just like thewhites of their eyes.
(28:10):
Oh, that would be so weird.
Um But I always start with thebutterfly tapping, um, just
because uh I can vocally guideit and it also helps people stay
more connected to their body,which I think you can kind of
separate the head out more.
Um, and then the beeping ifpeople are really like, you
know, um sound oriented.
(28:32):
Some be and you know, if it'snot working with one form of
bilateral, um I just tryanother.
Most of the research has beendone on the eye movements, so I
think that a lot of peopledefault to that.
Um, but it's rare.
I I don't think I've had anyonethat didn't respond somewhat
well to um butterfly holdtapping.
(28:55):
And I think because it is in thebody and can ground you in the
present in in a way.
Um yeah, the research would saystart with eye movements, but
that's because that's how allthe initial research was done.
Um Fran Dr.
Francine Shapiro, who discoveredand developed EMDR, um, she was
(29:19):
walking through a park inBrooklyn and thinking about
something upsetting and movingher eyes side to side.
And she found after a while thatshe the upsetting thing wasn't
upsetting.
And she was like, huh, I wonderwhat's here.
And so she spent the rest of hercareer researching what is this
bilateral stimulation and howdoes it affect the way memory is
processed, and from that builtthe protocol for EMDR, which is
(29:44):
what's used today.
SPEAKER_00 (29:46):
Wow, I had no idea.
That is crazy.
So the the eye movement part, itwere they thinking there was a
link, like when you go to sleepand you have, you know, the
rapid eye movement when you'resleeping.
Is there any connection withthat?
SPEAKER_02 (30:00):
I don't know.
Um, but uh what we do know iswhen there's bilateral
stimulation, so side to sidemovement of some kind, it does
help with uh memory kind of likecataloging and and the way that
things are stored.
(30:21):
And I think that this is me.
Just theorizing.
But as we become a more and moresedentary society, I think you
know bilateral movement is lessand less a part of our day.
I think we're seeing more andmore unprocessed trauma coming
up.
We're less in touch with ourbodies, we're not moving very
(30:43):
much.
Uh and uh yeah, there'ssomething there, I think.
SPEAKER_00 (30:48):
Oh, that makes sense.
I'm also thinking that I wish Iwould have known about the
butterfly tap when I was incollege.
Like, would it would it havemade me remember everything for
exams and stuff?
SPEAKER_02 (31:01):
Well, if um if people want to try a resourcing
activity, because obviously wewould never process trauma on a
podcast when I can't see you oryou know, um the can't see
listeners.
Um but you can use the butterflytapping to enhance your access
(31:22):
to positive memories andsensations.
And I actually would recommendthis.
So let's say you like go on areally beautiful hike with a
friend, like that night, justspend some time reflecting on
just that the beauty of the dayand the connection and the views
and like the sun and the animalsand how you felt in your body
(31:45):
moving out in nature.
Spend some time like vividlyrecalling that and tapping side
to side.
That will enhance yourresilience and your ability to
cope, and it will give you wideraccess to those positive
feelings.
SPEAKER_00 (32:00):
Yeah.
And and I always forget thatpeople, not everybody is
watching and that some peopleare listening.
SPEAKER_02 (32:06):
So the the butterfly tap is like your arms are across
each other and you're justtapping holding your shoulders
across your chest and tappingside to side alternately.
SPEAKER_00 (32:17):
Yeah.
Okay.
Um is there anything about elseabout EMDR that you can think
of?
SPEAKER_02 (32:25):
I hear a lot of people ask about like complex
trauma or like, does it work forthings beyond trauma?
SPEAKER_00 (32:32):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (32:33):
And the answer is yes, but you need a skilled EMDR
therapist, like probably onethat um understands attachment
very well, that is doing a verythorough resourcing phase.
I have a clinician like this onmy team who like her specialty
is complex trauma.
And um she it really is aboutlike how do you repair those
(32:57):
early attachment relationshipsthat you didn't get?
How do you kind of give yourselfthe nurturing and the safety
that you never experienced?
So you can with a very strongrelationship with your therapist
and a very skilled therapist whounderstands yeah, we're not just
(33:17):
processing acute incidents here,and that they have kind of a
game plan for how they approachthat.
Um and just in case somebodydoesn't know what complex trauma
is, yeah, it's it's anythingthat occurred like in
relationship with a primarycaregiver or like it kind of
deprived you of a sense ofsafety and stability, and like
(33:41):
knowing there was a nurturingadult there to protect you as a
child.
SPEAKER_00 (33:46):
So that might not even be something that
somebody's aware of right away.
SPEAKER_02 (33:51):
I mean, fish don't notice the water.
I've never heard that it's beenyour normal, if it's always been
your normal, then yeah, you'regonna walk through life feeling
hyper-vigilant, feelingdistrustful of others, feeling
like the only safety is inyourself.
And that's completelyunderstandable in that scenario.
SPEAKER_00 (34:15):
Now, is that EMDR the same as if you're dealing
with a specific trauma, but it'sjust you need somebody that's
more trained into more trained,and they want to also be
incorporating elements of umpotentially like parts work,
internal family systems,attachment theory, tons of
(34:37):
resourcing, and uh there'ssomething else that I'm thinking
of that it just um ran out of mymind.
SPEAKER_02 (34:45):
But they they need to be it's a more creative
approach rather than okay, thismemory, then we're gonna go
through the whole, you know,cycle of it because it is really
complex.
And so the that would be a muchlonger term treatment.
SPEAKER_00 (35:01):
And uh your so your company is called Laurel Cl
Collective.
Laurel Therapy Collective.
Okay, Laurel Therapy Collective.
And is it um your is it allvirtual or do you do it?
SPEAKER_02 (35:11):
All virtual and we can serve people in California
and Florida.
SPEAKER_00 (35:15):
Okay, so how would people get in touch with you?
SPEAKER_02 (35:18):
Yeah, our website is Laureltherapy.net.
SPEAKER_00 (35:20):
Okay, that's easy.
Um, is there anything that youthink that we've missed at all?
SPEAKER_02 (35:26):
No, I don't think so.
SPEAKER_00 (35:28):
I think we covered it.
I think I mean EMDR is great.
Actually, um, just to get intothe history of it, was there any
specific kind of trauma that itwas initially directed toward?
SPEAKER_02 (35:40):
Well, I mean, our understanding of trauma is
evolving.
And a hundred years ago, youknow, people were coming back
from World War I a littledifferent.
And people, so the term shellshock was developed.
And, you know, people thoughtonly combat veterans could
experience trauma.
But then they realized actuallythe next group to be included in
(36:02):
our understanding of trauma wassexual trauma survivors that
they were seeing like, huh,these people that have had
sexual trauma and these peoplewho've been like in active
combat are showing the samesymptoms.
Fascinating.
So then after Vietnam, likeactually like a lot more
research went into studyingtrauma.
But as far as EMDR, they firstused it on combat veterans and
(36:27):
first responders, um, that thesekind of big T, like acute
traumas, even though they're notreally acute, if you're in an
active combat zone, there'sgoing to be multiple traumas all
the time.
But kind of these like um, youknow, discrete periods of time
where it's like, okay, you comeback from your tour of duty, and
then that's like umtheoretically over, but it's
(36:51):
never over.
Um, so they did a lot of earlyresearch on EMDR on combat
veterans and on firstresponders.
And EMDR had gained sometraction by then, but I remember
that after 9-11, a lot of firstresponders were wearing these
little buttons that said EMDR,it's effing magic because it's
(37:12):
not a modality that requires aton of talking about your
feelings.
Like, there's definitely likesome talking about feelings, but
there's kind of an efficiencyand like an economy to it where,
like, you know, like a policeofficer or a firefighter, like
who maybe isn't a therapyperson, might be more
comfortable with it, even thoughit looks and sounds totally woo.
(37:35):
Once you're like, oh, there'sscience behind it.
They're like, Yeah, okay, I wantto be able to go back to work.
SPEAKER_00 (37:39):
Yeah, and it's almost like you you're like an
active participant in it.
I mean, you have to be.
I mean, you're an activeparticipant in all therapy, but
it's like you're really actuallyworking to get to that.
SPEAKER_02 (37:52):
Um you can stop anytime you want.
Like it's not hypnosis, likeyou're not, you do not lose
control at any point.
You might feel really overcomewith emotion or like you know,
overwhelmed, but um, but yeah,you're always in control.
SPEAKER_00 (38:09):
Yeah.
For me, I found, you know, therewould be sometimes I'd, you
know, be there, be wherever, andI'd feel okay.
And then all of a sudden, just awave of emotion would just hit
and I would start crying.
I was like, where did that comefrom?
And um, because yeah, I hadseparated myself from a lot of
it.
SPEAKER_02 (38:28):
Um to survive and adaptive coping.
Exactly.
Your body was telling you maybethis isn't working anymore.
SPEAKER_00 (38:37):
Right.
So, what how does it happen withum like somebody who was in
combat and there's multipleincidents of trauma?
Is do you have to do it for eachindividual one or do you focus
on like a major traumatic?
SPEAKER_02 (38:52):
Yeah.
Not you don't usually have to doeach one.
That's a great question.
Like, do you have to processevery trauma in your life to
experience related art?
The answer is no, you do not.
So most trauma falls in likesomewhat of a chain.
Like we have um we all have likea couple chains, right?
Like that there's, you know, um,like I'll I'll make something
(39:14):
up.
Like you have a chain that isthe I'm not lovable chain.
You have the chain that's I'mnot safe, you have the chain
that's I'm not capable, right?
And then if you can find a spitlike the linchpin memory in
those lines of dominoes thathave been set up, if you can
knock out the right one, it'lltake the rest with them often.
SPEAKER_00 (39:36):
Oh, that's a great description of that.
SPEAKER_02 (39:39):
Yeah.
So, you know, even though I workwith incredible people and a lot
of them very accomplished, verysuccessful, ambitious, and I'm
no longer surprised.
But often if we like are takinglike a feeling state or
something that we're like, yeah,why do why do we have this
(39:59):
thought or this fear that'scoming up?
It goes back to like beingforgotten at school or like
something like that.
Like, you know, these likebadass people.
SPEAKER_00 (40:08):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (40:09):
And this, like, yeah, I was forgotten at school.
I was the only kid there.
I was like sitting in the, youknow, sitting in the I know, I
know.
And you know, these, but thesememories, like we can logically
as adults know, like, yeah, Iwas perfectly safe.
Like my mom had car trouble thatday, but still we go back into
(40:31):
this, like, I'm forgotten, I'malone, you know?
Yeah.
Um, so when we can find it,doesn't have to necessarily be
objectively the worst thingthat's ever happened to you.
It's just that linchpin domino,and taking that one out
eliminates the whole string.
Now, sometimes you have a wholebunch of linchpin dominoes, but
(40:51):
if we tend to have clusters.
So with the combat example, itwould be like, was there a first
or a worst event that happened?
And you would start with thatone and then see if the other
ones fall with it.
SPEAKER_00 (41:07):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (41:08):
Um, and if they don't, it's like, okay, that's
interesting.
I wonder what else is going onhere, and then kind of getting
in there until you until theline falls.
SPEAKER_00 (41:16):
Oh my goodness.
unknown (41:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (41:17):
It has to be exhausting for you too, right?
Like, I feel like I know.
No, no.
I mean, I would need to sleep.
SPEAKER_02 (41:24):
It's so energizing because like I get just enough
sessions a week where there'slike resolution or like a
breakthrough, or like, you know,someone like has like such a
beautiful outcome, and like, youknow, they like unlock a new
part of themselves, like they'rein a new relationship and it's
actually a healthy one, or like,you know, they get a job offer
(41:45):
or like they take a big risk andit pans out.
Like, there's so much of thatthat I'm privy to that I'm like,
yeah, I'm gonna get in therewith you and figure out which of
these we need to clear out sothat you can like live a better
life.
So it's not exhausting at all.
I don't think I have a hard job.
SPEAKER_00 (42:02):
Oh, okay.
Well, that's good because Ithink you have a hard job.
Um, all right.
You already gave the website.
So we have how to get in touchwith you.
Um, do you have any lasting likeuh encouragement or wisdom that
you would like to leave withlisteners?
SPEAKER_02 (42:19):
Yeah.
Um, yes, I definitely do.
First, I want to say if you wantto learn like in a lot more
detail about EMDR, we actuallyhave a free webinar you can
watch at any point on ourwebsite on the EMDR page where
we actually made like a fakeclient and we walked through all
eight phases of EMDR and whatthat looked like for her.
(42:40):
Um, and like what so and it itis the college athlete example
to hopefully not be tootriggering.
So, and we don't go into anylike description of the injury.
Um, but so that's available.
But um, yes, the last thing Iwant to say to people is you're
never gonna feel 100% ready forEMDR.
(43:01):
Like, just like you did.
Like you can come into therapyand say, Hey, I have this like
very locked box and I know Ineed to open it at some point.
Can you help me get ready toopen it?
And the therapist should sayyes, because like you're never
gonna wake up and be like, I amready to face my trauma.
So start when you're almostready, because that's as ready
(43:22):
as you're gonna be.
SPEAKER_00 (43:24):
That's perfect.
That's exactly right.
Well, thank you so much, Laurel,for your time and explaining all
of this.
I think it's such an incrediblemodality that is super, super
helpful.
Um, and I think a lot morepeople should explore it as an
option.
But thank you again for comingon and sharing all that with us.
SPEAKER_02 (43:42):
I'm always happy to talk about EMDR.
SPEAKER_00 (43:45):
Okay, thanks.
Find more information, registeras a guest, or leave a review by
going to the websiteonein3podcast.com.
That's the number one the numberthree podcast.com.
Follow one in three onInstagram, Facebook, and Twitter
at one and three podcast.
To help me out, please rememberto rate review and subscribe.
(44:09):
One in three is a point fivePanoy production.
Music written and performed byTim Crow.
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