December 3, 2025 • 41 mins
Shame often masquerades as a moral compass—but for many survivors of narcissistic abuse, it becomes the cage that keeps them stuck. In this 1 in 3 episode, Emma breaks down how shame fuels narcissistic abuse, why it fuses with identity, and how it traps survivors in the same relationship patterns even after they leave. She explains the key difference between guilt (which supports repair and growth) and shame (which corrodes empathy, blocks learning, and freezes change).
Emma walks us through her practical BREAK Framework—Break the trance, Refuse to engage, Expose the lie, Anchor the truth, and Kick it out. These tools help survivors interrupt shame in real time, shift out of old conditioning, and reclaim their sense of power. Expect clear language, body-based grounding strategies, and boundary tools that put control back where it belongs: with you.
We also explore how culture rewards shaming as a form of control, why scapegoating spreads through families and institutions, and what it means to become “unshameable”—where projections slide off instead of sinking in. The goal isn’t perfection; it’s sovereignty and self-leadership: humility without humiliation, accountability without self-erasure.
If you’ve ever wondered why beating yourself up has never led to real healing, this conversation offers a new path. Learn how guilt can guide healthy repair and how shame loses its grip when you stop letting it define you. Listen in, try the tools, and share this episode with someone who’s ready to reclaim their power. Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a review to help more survivors find support.
Emma's Links:
https://www.1in3podcast.com/guests/emma-lyons/
https://www.instagram.com/trauma.matrix
https://www.youtube.com/@trauma.matrix
https://www.facebook.com/trauma.matrix
https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-lyons-traumamatrix/
https://subscribepage.io/GtaJ5s
1 in 3 is intended for mature audiences. Episodes contain explicit content and may be triggering to some.
If you are in the United States and need help right now, call the national domestic violence hotline at 800-799-7233 or text the word “start” to 88788.
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Thank you for listening!
Cover art by Laura Swift Dahlke
Music by Tim Crowe
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:47):
Hi, Warriors, welcome to Win and Three.
I'm your host, Ingrid.
Shame.
It's an all-too familiar feelingfor I'm going to be bold here
and say every victim andsurvivor of domestic violence.
My guest today dives deep intoshame, what it does to our inner
psyche, how to recognize it, andwhat we should do about it.
(01:10):
Please join me in welcomingEmma.
Hi, Emma.
Thank you for joining me today.
Thank you so much.
Great to be here, Ingrid.
Yes, I'm thrilled to have you.
So before we get into ourconversation, could you give
some of a background so peopleget to know you a little bit?
SPEAKER_01 (01:27):
Okay.
Well, um I fairly recentlydiscovered all my life I've
really suffered from feeling notgood enough.
I thought it was ugly, I thoughtI was stupid, all the all the
things, right?
And I thought I was the problem.
I thought I was from, you know,good family, I was loved and
everything.
So it was all I knew.
(01:48):
But when I broke my leg a yearago, I started to realize that
my family was more dysfunctionaland that my mom was quite
manipulative.
And I started to put togetherthat she actually fits all the
traits of a covert narcissistand that my family is quite
enmeshed and guilting.
And I'm then I started toidentify.
(02:10):
Well, I started to identifybefore I identified that she was
a covert narcissist, that I hadbeen kind of the scapegoat
within this dysfunctionalsystem.
And once the once I realizedthat, I was like, yes, I take
every single box of thescapegoat.
And what happens with thescapegoat is that you kind of
get to be the lad and fill forall the shame and unprocessed
(02:32):
crap of the family.
So you end up internalizingshame, you know, with beliefs
like I'm stupid, I'm ugly, I'myou know, all the things, I hate
my body, I'll never amount toanything, all those things, they
don't just land in a child'sbrain by for no reason.
They happen because there's theenvironment kind of stirs them
(02:52):
up and reinforces them.
So when I started to see that, Istarted to really take back my
power.
And because I realized thatshame is the underlying problem.
I had been doing um all thishealing, all this therapy for
years and years, or for adecade, maybe 15, 20 years
really.
(03:13):
And it was kind of like takingone step forward and one step
back, two steps forward and twosteps back constantly, like just
doing feng shui in the furniturewhen the house is on fire.
And once I started to realizethe deeper pattern in my family,
I realized that this really isthe thing that's keeping it all
in place.
(03:33):
It's it's shame.
Um, because you know, eventhough you're doing all the
manifesting and thinking aboutthe positive, if you've got
shame going on in thebackground, it's like this
anchor that keeps pulling youdown to the bottom of the ocean.
And uh, because shame says youcan't, or it's not safe.
And uh, you know, that was thatwas where I was.
(03:55):
I was just going round and roundin circles until I revealed this
underlying pattern.
And then I started to realize,you know, that I had
internalized this voice, andthat that was where the inner
narcissist idea came from.
And also I started to see thatthis kind of narcissistic
patterns happen everywhere, youknow, particularly where you
have the scapegoat, the enabler,and the the kind of narcissist,
(04:20):
the autocrat.
I started to see, wow, this thisechoes everywhere.
You see it in corporations, yousee it in families, obviously,
because that's where at firstinverts we internalize it.
You see it in governments.
Uh, all leaders kind of havethis narcissistic template, and
they all operate on the currencythat is shame.
This is how they control people,and this is how we internalize
(04:44):
that system because it's sonormalized, and this is how we
think that it's the best way tocontrol ourselves.
We're like, we don't like whatwe're doing, so we shame
ourselves in the hope that we'llchange.
But uh really it it doesn't workbecause shame just makes you
small, it makes you shrink, itmakes you feel like you're being
attacked.
And it's actually a very poorindicator for long, medium to
(05:08):
long term changes of behavior.
It works in the moment.
Like if I chain a child herebecause they're bothering me,
they'll still be quiet veryquickly.
But in the it doesn't changetheir behavior in the medium to
long term, and this is likeshame has just been so
normalized in our toxic culture.
Um this is this it's really thethe cornerstone of so many, so
(05:33):
many different pathologies thatpeople have, you can trace them
back to shame.
I was on a podcast aboutaddictions yesterday, and you
know, the really this thiswoman, the woman that I was
speaking to, they all had, youknow, they're really related to
it about how I speak about shamebecause it is that voice that
tells you, who are you?
And you when you drink, you kindof put paws on it.
(05:56):
And the same I was on a podcastabout bulimia, and again, it's
shame.
It's like this, it's not eventhe belief that you're bad,
you're faulty, you'redysfunctional.
It's like self-annihilation.
That's what shame is.
It's a toxic cocktail of, youknow, the belief that I'm bad is
downstream from this toxiccocktail of uh emotions like
(06:18):
self-loathing, anger turnedinwards, sadness, depression.
It's like self-attack.
And we're told that it's goodfor you.
We're told that shame is goodfor you and that you need a bit
to be a good person.
And I just think that's completeBS.
That's complete gaslighting bysociety.
And I understand where it'scoming from.
(06:40):
It's coming from a society whereshame is so normalized that
people think that it's part ofwhat it is to be human and to be
a good person.
But I would argue that we don'tneed shame to be a good person.
We need, we don't need shame tobe humble.
We need humility.
We don't need shame in order tochange our behavior, recognize
that we've done, we've hurtsomeone.
(07:00):
That's empathy.
And shame actively shuts downour ability to empathize in the
brain.
So I just think this, this,there's a false narrative that
shame is good for you and thatit changes your behavior.
And it's coming to us from everysingle angle.
And basically, it's just pushinga toxic narrative that's uh
(07:20):
making us shame ourselves moreand take projections of shame
that's coming from absolutelyeverywhere.
The family, businesses,advertisement everywhere.
SPEAKER_00 (07:31):
Right.
And I mean, shame, like yousaid, it comes from everywhere.
And having a domestic violencepodcast that a lot of the
listeners can relate withfeeling shame at some point.
Yeah, you know, the abuser isgoing to either falsify reasons
of why you should feel shamedfor whatever, you know, fake
narrative or something that youtruly did do.
(07:53):
There's a shame that you carryof why did I stay in that
relationship that long?
How many people did I subject tothis abuse?
You know, were there otherpeople in the home, including
children, that I feel ashamedbecause I subjected them to
that?
And then just the shame of thefact that it happened to you.
So now you've escaped therelationship, you're on your
(08:16):
road to healing, and you stillare ashamed to talk about what
happened because you feel likethat you are taking some
ownership of that.
So shame is a huge thing that alot of listeners are going to.
SPEAKER_01 (08:30):
If I could just say one thing, Ingrid, you don't
need shame.
You don't need to shameyourself.
You know, that's the narrativethat we're told.
You should be ashamed.
Absolutely not.
That's just continuing the cycleof what your uh partner, your
abusive partner did to you.
When you shame yourself, you areinternalizing that voice and
(08:51):
pitting it against yourself.
So you absolutely should notshame yourself.
Yes, recognize I've done harmhere, I've damaged myself, but
you do not need shame to becomea good person.
This is a huge lie that we'rebeing gaslit with.
You do not need shame in orderto recognize mistakes that
you've made in the past.
Mistakes that you've made, andlet's be real, we've all made
(09:13):
mistakes, we've all hurt people,we've all hurt ourselves, but we
don't need to shame ourselvesabout them.
This is this is the idea.
If I suffer enough, if I beatmyself up enough, then I'll
clean myself of my skin sins.
You know, this is kind of theChristian idea, just beat myself
and I'll be better.
It doesn't work.
You know, our our entire systemis built around shame.
(09:35):
If you look at the prisonsystem, it's built on shaming.
People go out of prison, theycommit the crimes again, they
commit worse crimes.
Shame does not work.
It does not work neurologically,it doesn't work societally, it
works in the moment, but it doesnot work in the medium to long
term.
So we gotta recognize that shameis toxic and cut it out.
SPEAKER_00 (09:56):
Yeah, I agree with you in the shame that people
feel, they're getting, it'sagain, like you mentioned, it
comes from everywhere thatsociety is saying you shouldn't
be talking about these thingsbecause it's an embarrassing
situation.
And I do love what you saidabout you need humility, you
need empathy, you don'tnecessarily need shame.
Or not necessarily, you don't,you just don't need shame.
Um, I'm really, really excitedto get into more of uh your
(10:19):
whole thought process behind allof this.
But before we do, can you justgo over some definitions, like
what is covert narcissism, andthen uh then go into you talk
started talking about this innernarcissist.
SPEAKER_01 (10:31):
Okay, well, first before I talk about the covert
type of narcissist, I'll talkabout the the regular type of
narcissist, the obvious, you'reDonald Trump's, you know, the
obvious kind of grandiose typeof type of narcissist.
They're they're grandiose,they're self-important, they're
they're preoccupied withfantasies of unlimited success,
(10:51):
and you know, they're deserving,they feel like they're special,
they need admiration, there is asense of entitlement there,
they're they exploit people, um,they lack empathy, and they're
envious of others, or you know,believe other people are envious
of them.
So that's that's that's thenarcissist, that's kind of the
(11:13):
DSM definition of thenarcissist.
And it's all driven by shame, byrepress shame.
Like this is what this they'vethey've decided because
narcissists react defensively tocriticism because they start
they their their entire identityis built on shame and repress
(11:34):
shame.
So if you're if you're thinkabout someone who's really
confident and someone criticizesyou, you're gonna be like, okay,
whatever, you know, you'reentitled to your opinion.
But narcissists, no, they takeit personally, they feel shame,
they feel offended, and this iswhy they go on the attack.
And you see that with yourDonald Trumps and everyone like
that.
But narcissism is really, itcomes from shame, it's rooted in
(11:56):
shame.
So that's that's narcissism.
Now, these are the very overttypes, the grandiose types are
very obvious.
Then you have the more coverttypes, which are more, oh, poor
me, I'm so sorry, oh my God,this terrible thing has
happened.
Oh, everybody think about me andhow poor I am.
So it's kind of you're stillbeing the center of attention,
(12:19):
require admiration, and and youcan, and that the the covert
narcissist is stillexploitative.
They'll guilt and shame peoplefor their feelings, they will
lack empathy where they will putthemselves first and they will
experience envy of others, butit's in a more covert manner.
It's not as obvious because theytend to be more, they're not, oh
(12:42):
wow, I'm so amazing, I'm thebest thing ever, you know, the
big, beautiful, I'm the biggest,more beautiful thing in the
world.
You know, they're they're muchmore low-key.
They will require to be thecenter of attention, but in a
much more low-key, and oftenbecause they're kind, they they
feel victimized or feel like, ohmy god, my body is falling
(13:02):
apart, I've got this happening,and they'll they'll deflect from
talking about other people totheir own pain or whatever is
going on for them.
So that's the covert narcissist.
SPEAKER_00 (13:15):
I have a quick question before you go on to the
next one.
Is it possible for someone tofluctuate between being an overt
narcissist and a covertnarcissist or have different uh,
you know, perhaps they're covertwith this individual, but then
they're displaying like veryobvious signs of narcissism to
other people?
SPEAKER_01 (13:35):
Uh, usually it will be one or the other.
So they usually don't have thatmuch kind of model.
Usually, if someone isgrandiose, they're going to be
grandiose the whole time, andvice versa.
So this is why it's much, muchless obvious.
And you know, a lot of people'sabusers, they might have been an
overt narcissist, very obvious.
Other people will see that thatperson is super toxic.
(13:59):
And that can be validating.
You know, you can be like, wow,other people see that your
partner is abusive.
So you don't feel so much thatyou are the problem.
But when you've got a covertnarcissist abuser, you can
internalize it more.
It can be even more um corrosivebecause you kind of think, well,
I'm I'm the problem.
My partner is loving, eventhough they may be manipulating
(14:22):
you and kind of invalidating youconstantly.
And that's that's very damagingas well.
Even more insidious in someways, because you end up taking
on more than your fair share ofthe blame, really.
So though those are the that'sthe overt and the covert
narcissist.
And then you wanted me that whatI realized is that I did is that
(14:45):
I, you know, having been broughtup in this dysfunctional family,
I had been scapegoated.
And like I said, the scapegoat,you've you're basically the
landvil for the unprocessed shitof the family, the unprocessed
intergenerational trauma.
So you take all that on and youinternalize it against yourself.
You're like, I'm stupid, I'mugly, and I'll never meant
(15:08):
anything, I'll never have apartner, all those thoughts.
This is what happens when you'rein a kind of toxic environment,
because it can't be,particularly if it's a parent, a
partner, it can't be them.
I must be the problem.
This is how we cope.
And we take shame and we kind ofshame as a sword, but we also it
also can be a shield.
So we're like, we kind of defendor we think we can defend
(15:29):
ourselves with shame.
We're like, I'll kind of beatthem to the punch.
If I shame myself enough, thenI'll become better and I can't
be hurt by other people'sshaming.
That's kind of the childlikeprocessing that happens.
So this is where the shameoriginates and all that, all
those negative, that supernegative self-talk.
It doesn't come from outerspace, it comes from our
(15:51):
environment.
And this this uh this I call it,it's often called the inner
critic in common parlance, youknow, when we're taught that
this voice is trying to protectyou, you know.
Oh, it doesn't want you to be onthat podcast or do that thing
because it's trying to keep yousafe.
But I've what I've recognizedwith my own inner critic is that
(16:13):
no, just like the covertnarcissist that tells you, you
can't be a yoga teacher, youcan't do that podcast, that's
not them protecting you, that'sthem protecting them.
Okay, so the the narcissist willpunch you in the face, kick you
in the balls, and then tell you,you made me do it.
I'm doing it for your own sake.
It's complete gaslighting.
(16:33):
And yet, culturally, we'retaught that this voice that
we've internalized that shamesus constantly, that it's some
kind of protector, that it'ssomething that it's trying to
keep us safe, that it's tryingto look after us.
Absolutely not.
That your higher self orwhatever you want to call it,
your guardian or whatever it is,your intuition, it will not
(16:54):
shame you.
That will not shame you.
Wounded child will not shameyou.
This this is different.
This is much more insidious.
This is uh, this is basically itticks all the boxes of the
narcissist, but the call iscoming from inside the house.
And rather than beinginterpersonally exploitative, it
exploits you and it has noempathy.
And it's 100% self-serving.
(17:16):
It's not trying to care for you,it's trying to destroy you, it's
trying to keep you small andkeep you tiny and keep you in
your little box so it can becomfortable.
And once I started to realizethis and stopped coddling this
voice, I started, I stoppedfeeding it and started taking my
power back from it.
And that was really the turningpoint for me because all my life
(17:38):
I've been taught to sit downwith this thing, send it love,
and it's just a parasite.
It's a parasite, just like ifyou have if you have a parasite
in your gut, you don't send loveto it.
You take your freaking medicine,get the thing out of you.
And this uh this shame voice,this inner narcissist is the
same.
The narcissist on the outside,they're the same, they're
parasitic.
(17:58):
They need narcissistic supply tobe to survive because they are
shells of people.
They're sh they're a shellwithout you.
They need your life force inorder to survive.
And this is really empowering.
This is not a shaming idea.
This really allows you to takeback your power from this thing
(18:19):
and stop calling it you becauseit's not you.
It's insidious, it's a parasite,and you need to cut that thing
off and take your power back.
SPEAKER_00 (18:29):
Do you think that it's so easy to allow what
you're calling the innernarcissist to thrive because
it's a comfortable space thatyou know individuals have been
in, a victim of domesticviolence where they've been, you
know, abused mentally andpsychologically by their abuser.
And this is just a familiarspace for them to continue that
(18:51):
self-flagellation beyond therelationship.
SPEAKER_01 (18:53):
100% scapegoats go on to attract more scapegoating.
So it's what you imprint fromyour childhood, you seek it
because it's kind of youremotional home, your familiar
zone.
So you this is why people, youknow, they they they go uh go
out with someone who's abusive,marry someone who's abusive,
break up with them, find anotherone that's exactly the same with
(19:14):
a different face, and the samepattern plays out.
Because it's not just aboutchanging your partner, you've
got to change the patternsinside you that that made you
attracted to that energy, thatuh that that um that level of
control and manipulation.
So this this isn't about blaminganyone.
(19:35):
This is about you take back yourpower.
You can take back your power.
You don't need a new partner,you need to change the thoughts
and beliefs and feelings thatare that are attracting that
kind of dynamic.
And it's not your fault, but itis your responsibility to change
that, and you can change it,you're not a victim.
So, how do you change it?
(19:56):
Well, first of all, you've gotto recognize that shame is not
is not useful ever, ever.
And this is the this is thething where really part ways
with the conventional wisdomthat says that shame is good for
you.
You know, even if you look atthe English language, you have
no shame.
This is this is what we say topeople when they're acting out
(20:19):
or doing something that makes mefeel uncomfortable.
You have no shame, you'reshameless, you you're shameful.
So shame is really always aboutcontrol.
And like I said, it doesn't,there's this idea behind this
terminology, shameless andshameful, that shame regulates
your behavior, it makes you be agood boy or a good girl, and you
(20:41):
have to ex you have to have somelevel of shame in order to be
good, a good person.
And that's completely that thatdoesn't even stand up to the
facts because people acting outof repressed shame are often the
most violent, the mostdysfunctional.
Like I talked about narcissistsand narcissistic collectives and
cults and things, they'rethey're they're narcissistic
(21:01):
groups and families,dysfunctional families, they're
operating out of repressed shameand they're very destructive and
very damaging for everyoneinvolved.
So to say that we need shame inorder to be good, it's a it's a
collective mirage that we're allunder in our society.
And a kind of this a type ofindividualized shame that you're
(21:23):
bad and that you it kind ofcomes that you're bad just for
existing.
It kind of has its roots inorganized religion, um,
particularly Christianity, andthis idea of original sin.
Before that, uh, we did haveshame as well, like in groups
that was kind of morehonor-shaming.
You know, if you step out ofline or do something that that
(21:44):
shames the family, then youwould be shamed for that.
Again, it's about control aswell.
But it's not, you're not shamedfor who you are, you're shamed
because you've done somethingthat brings shame on the family.
So in theory, there's a way toremedy it, and it's not for who
you are, your identity.
It's also super corrosive.
It's also the the leading causeof, you know, onaliving,
(22:08):
self-onaliving.
And um, in the West, you know,where this is kind of the
underpinning of our culture,this kind of individualized type
of shame that says, you're asinner, you're bad, you have to
be punished, you have toexperience pain in order to
remedy yourself, in order to begood enough.
There's this idea that you haveto suffer.
(22:28):
You know, this idea they have tosuffer, they have to flagellate
yourself in order to be better.
And the truth is, changedoesn't, shame doesn't help
people change.
It quite the contrary, it uhconcretizes their behavior.
You know, people tend to be,like I said, become more
defensive in their position andthey tend to change less.
(22:50):
We need, we maybe we need guilt,we need a bit of guilt.
We need to recognize that wewe've done something wrong, not
that we're bad, because when itcomes to when when our identity
feels attacked, that puts usinto survival mode, that puts us
into defensiveness.
And it's very hard to climb outof that.
So we don't need more shame, weneed less shame.
(23:12):
That's first of all.
So recognize that shame isalways corrosive, it doesn't
help you grow, it doesn't helpyou be stronger, it helps you
shrink and stay small and be avictim of life.
And that's not to blame.
I've lived with shame for a longtime, so I know what it feels
like, but you've got to breakthe trance of shame, really.
And I have an acronym,B-R-E-A-K.
(23:34):
So B is about breaking thetrance.
Recognize that this isn't yourvoice, and it's a spell.
And it's not always a voice,it's like an emotional cocktail
of self-disgust.
You know, it takes so it hijacksyour body like nothing else.
So this is a spell, it's apattern, it's a collective
trance that we're all in.
So you've got to catch it,interrupt it, and really name
(23:57):
it.
This is a trance, and thatautomatically disrupts the loop.
After you've recognized thatit's never healthy, it's never
good for you.
Then R refuse to engage.
So this is Dr.
Ramani who talks aboutnarcissists, she talks about
deep.
Don't defend, don't engage,don't explain, and don't
personalize.
(24:17):
So don't get into fighting withthis voice or arguing with it.
Just drop the rope.
You don't argue with a trance orsomebody put you under a spell.
It's not gonna work.
You just give it more energy.
Just say, not today.
And you don't owe it anycourtesy because it's not a
wounded child, right?
The narcissist, the narcissistthat you internalize, it's not a
(24:38):
wounded part.
You know, you're not gonna loveit away.
Um, just like with thenarcissist out there, you don't
love them enough so that they'llchange.
This is delusion, you know.
So then you've got to e exposethe lie.
So call out the shame-basedprogramming.
What's it saying?
That you're stupid, that you cannever do anything right, uh that
you're an idiot.
(24:59):
It's not true.
This is not empirical, it's notan empirical truth.
You have done things correctlyonce, at least once in your
life, you have.
It's not true.
It's a lie.
This is all about control.
This is not your story, it's nottrue.
And speaking that truth reallydisarms its power.
Recognizing that it'smanipulative.
(25:19):
Shame is always, alwaysmanipulative.
It's always manipulative.
And that's what I'd loved forpeople to recognize that when
you shame yourself, when or whenthat voice shames you, when you
shame your child, or when it'smanipulative.
And you might think you're doingit for the benefit of that other
person, but no, you're you'remanipulating them.
People manipulate others all thetime, unconsciously.
(25:40):
So expose the lie.
Then you want to anchor thetruth because, like I said,
shame hijacks your body likenothing else.
I don't know if you'veexperienced a shame attack, but
like your face goes red, youshrink, you want to disappear,
you have all these thoughtsracing.
So you've got to come back toyour body, feel your breath,
plant your feet, say your name,the year, really remind your
(26:03):
nervous system, and you can eventouch yourself.
I'm safe, I'm sovereign, I'mhere.
Because, like I said, shame putsyou into survival mode, like
nothing else that I know of.
And then kick it out.
You can even do this, you canshake it off, physically stomp
it out, say it out loud, this isnot mine, and really reject it.
(26:23):
That's that's how you do it.
And I'm not saying it's easy.
It's simple, but it's not easybecause if you've been
practicing shame, you've beengiving it fuel and dancing for
it and sending it love and youknow, performing for it and
trying to negotiate with it'sgot 20, 30, 40 years of supply
there.
So it's built, it's may havebuilt into something quite
(26:45):
malignant.
So for you to change, take backyour power from that, it's gonna
take a little bit of practice,but it is possible.
Can still you can break up withthis voice because it's not you
and it's not trying to protectyou, it's not trying to keep you
safe.
It's it it is trying to destroyyou.
SPEAKER_00 (27:07):
Okay, so it so it's like a learned or even a taught
thought process because you'rebeing influenced to by outside
sources, whether it's family orsociety or an abusive partner,
that's the the influence that'steaching you to think this way
about yourself.
And right?
SPEAKER_01 (27:27):
I believe that shame is taught, yes.
Because uh shame really onlyexists as a thing in kind of
hierarchical societies.
And it's always about control,you know, who wins.
If you look at any other emotionlike anger or you know, fear,
there's a positive use.
Anger, somebody's crossed myboundaries, and I need to say
(27:49):
no.
Uh, fear, there's a dangerousanimal there.
I need to run in the oppositedirection.
So fear and anger and all theuncomfortable sadness, there's a
message there, there's somethingpositive.
Shame, no.
Shame makes you shrink.
Guilt, you could argue, but yourecognize that you've done
something bad, but get butshame, absolutely not.
(28:09):
It makes you shrink.
The only people that win hereare the people in control, the
people manipulating you, peopletrying to control you and keep
you small.
And you can stop doing that toyourself.
You can stop taking the bait,taking the hook.
And the cool thing is that onceyou, the more you exorcise, if
you like, this uh this in innernarcissist, this internalized
(28:32):
narcissist, the more immune youkind of inoculate yourself
against shaming from theoutside.
Someone was telling me a storyon a podcast a few weeks ago
about um their aunt when theywere younger and they were they
were a bit podgy and they wereeating ice cream outside.
And this this adult came up tothem and said, You shouldn't be
eating ice cream, you'll getfat.
(28:53):
And just think about howshaming, how much shame they
could have felt.
These girls, they laughed in hisface.
And this is this is the power.
In order for you to experienceshame, you need that voice
inside your head that says, Yes,you are fat, yes, you have a big
nose, yes, you are stupid.
Otherwise, you'll just think,return to sender, not mine.
(29:13):
You're crazy.
You know, you're entitled toyour opinion.
It'll just wash, it'll just washright back to them.
That is, it's shame is always aprojection because shame is not
an emotion that we can digestnormally.
It's not a normal emotion, it'scompletely abnormal and it's
always about control.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (29:33):
And I think ultimately someone's opinion of
you has more to do withthemselves than it actually does
of you.
SPEAKER_01 (29:40):
Exactly.
So you don't have to take thatin.
You don't have to experience theshame.
So shame is really at itsfoundation an inner process, an
internalized process.
You need that inner narcissist,that shame voice to resonate, to
kind of have the hook in orderfor you to experience shame.
Otherwise, you'll just be justlike, wow, okay, that's yours.
(30:02):
Thank you for your projections.
Return to I'm not taking yourgift today.
You can have it back.
SPEAKER_00 (30:08):
Yeah.
And I really like how youdifferentiate between guilt and
shame, because uh guilt isrecognizing that you are a good
person, but you may have made abad decision and you feel guilty
for that decision, but then yougo on understanding that you're
a good person, and shame iswallowing more or less in every
bad decision and every badthought.
SPEAKER_01 (30:31):
And like, but normally when people experience
guilt, it comes with a largeportion, a large side, a very
big side of shame.
So this is why people havedifficulty and people conflate
the two because they theythey're so often.
And enmeshed and merged becauseyou know when we do something
(30:51):
bad, we experience shame.
It's kind of automatic because,again, it's a taught behavior.
But but you know, theresearchers talk about babies
and kids feeling shame.
I believe that that's aprojection as well.
I believe that shame is taught.
You know, babies hiding theirfaces, it's not, it's not shame
necessarily.
That's them playing, that'ssomething else.
(31:13):
But researchers have havedesignated that as shame.
And I believe that's becausewe're in such a shame-infused
culture that we project thateverywhere.
But babies, you-born babies,they don't experience shame.
They're completely shameless.
That's the beauty of babies.
They have no shame.
And we should all be strivingfor that because shame doesn't
(31:34):
make you a better person.
It doesn't regulate yourbehavior.
It makes you worse.
It makes you shrink, it makesyou act out worse.
It leads to all kinds ofaddictions and negative behavior
and you being victimized andscapegoated more in your life.
So, no, reject that voice,reject shame.
You don't need it.
Never ever.
SPEAKER_00 (31:54):
Everything you're saying, it just sounds so
obvious.
Why do you think no one else hasbrought this up before or has
thought of this or is talkingabout this?
SPEAKER_01 (32:02):
Because shame is normalized in our culture.
Like I said, evenlinguistically, you have no
shame.
You're shameless.
These are slurs that peoplethrow around and use all the
time.
You know, it's a natural way tosay that someone is behaving
badly.
They're, you have, they have noshame.
They're shameless.
So it's totally normalized inour culture.
(32:24):
And once you recognize that it'salways a mechanism of control,
you can take back your power andnot be manipulated anymore.
Takes a bit of practice, but itis it is possible.
But you have to recognize thatshaming is going on everywhere
in our culture.
Like if you walk around and youcould do this tomorrow or today,
walk around your city or yourtown and just notice how maybe
(32:47):
you see shaming going on onlineor as you walk around, you know,
yeah, it's everywhere.
People on social media, this ishow this occurrence.
You do something I don't like, Ishame you.
You know, I say you're a badperson.
But you know, a worst casescenario, when collectives are
(33:07):
shamed, you know, you can itcouldn't go up to things like
genocide happens.
That this happens from repressedshame.
I mean, like this, if you lookat the the Nazis, you know, they
were they were shamed.
And then, you know, they respondto that because you have all
this collective shame and youwant to project it on someone
else, you find anotherscapegoat.
And now you with Israel, youknow, the former former golden
(33:30):
child, now they're going on,they're projecting their shame
on a new, on a new entity.
They've become kind of the thetop narcissists in their world
and they're projecting theirshame on a different group of
people because they have notdealt with their collective
shame.
Women have been collectivelyscapegoated as well.
Um, right now, the the mainscapegoat in a lot of countries
(33:53):
is the immigrants.
We have all this on processedshame, all this on-processed
trauma.
It's the immigrants' fault.
So we project it all on them.
And this is how we get somerelease from the shame because
it's very uncomfortable.
Shame is very uncomfortable.
We don't want to feel it.
This is why women pull eachother down.
You know, I feel shame.
(34:14):
So I criticize another woman forhaving wrinkles, for being too
fat, and it makes me feel alittle bit better at the moment
in the moment, but that isshame.
That is projection.
SPEAKER_00 (34:26):
Right.
And again, it's it's just it hasto do with that other person.
That other person's looking inthe mirror, not liking something
about themselves.
And so they'll find pieces toknock others down.
Okay, do you think that we'vemissed anything?
I mean, we've covered a lot.
Because I mean fixing it, fixingit is recognizing it, and then
probably just any kind oftherapeutic modality to address
(34:51):
that underlying issue that worksfor each individual, you think?
SPEAKER_01 (34:54):
Yeah.
So really the key thing isrecognizing that shame is not
useful ever.
Once you start being aware ofthat, and then when shame starts
to take over you, what starts tohijack you, that voice says, Oh
my god, you're lazy, you're bad.
You can recognize it and gothrough that break process and
just say, No, I'm not doingthat.
(35:16):
No, take it back.
I'm not, I'm not taking this.
And it sounds so simple, but itis effective because this thing,
excuse me, it's a it's aparasite.
Just like the narcissist outthere, they're parasitic.
They need to get the supply fromother people.
They're nothing without you.
So it's like if you imagine alight bulb, it gets all its
(35:38):
power from you.
You know, it takes it takes allits electricity from you.
Once you stop feeding it, it'lllose its supply and it dries up
and you take back your power.
But it might take a bit of a itmight be a bit of a process
because you know, like I said,you may have been feeding it and
performing it and practicing itfor 40, 50, 60 years, whatever.
So it's got a bit of a, it's gota bit of a it's got a bit of
(36:01):
momentum there.
So this why I work with peoplein groups, so we have this kind
of collective, collectiveworking together to really, it's
called my program is calledReclaim Your Shameless.
So it's about really reclaimingyour power without shame,
because shame has been used forway too long to control people,
(36:21):
to keep women down, to keepindigenous people down, to keep
children down, to to make peoplecomfortable who are higher up on
the wrong.
It's it's a hierarchical tool,weapon of control, and nothing
else.
There, there is no positive useof shame.
SPEAKER_00 (36:39):
So let's talk about that a little bit.
How do people get in touch withyou?
How do they get um if theywanted to join this group?
SPEAKER_01 (36:45):
Yeah, you can um, I'm on social media, I'm on
trauma.matrix on Instagram andTikTok and everywhere.
I have a YouTube channel aswell.
And you can you can also um I'mon Sub Substack.
I've written lots of articlesabout it.
So there I'm the trauma matrix.
Um, so send me a DM over there.
And I also have a free gift aswell for people.
(37:08):
If you're raising your hand andthinking, oh my god, this this
inner narcissist thing, I canrelate.
I have a free gift for you.
It's five signs that it's timeit's time to break up with your
inner narcissist.
And it gives you those fivesigns that really you need to
break up with this thing, andalso gives you strategies and
tools to make that happen.
(37:29):
So that would be a really goodnext step.
And you can find that attinyurl.com forward slash not
today narc n c I love not today.
That's yeah, not today.
Not today today.
Yeah, not today.
Not today.
So when the shame comes up, nottoday.
(37:49):
Try again, try again later.
You know, you don't, you don't,you don't owe it.
And the program that I wasrunning, the workshops that I
was running were called nottoday, bitch.
You know, because you don't youdon't have to give this thing,
you don't owe it any courtesy.
It's not a wounded child.
Um this is the thing, this isthe problem that I have with
kind of the conventional way ofdealing with this thing.
(38:10):
It teaches people how to coddleit, to sit down with the shame.
And I feel like that's verydangerous because when you sit
down with shame, what'sunderneath shame?
It's not a normal emotion.
Underneath anger, you might findgrief or something else, but
underneath shame, you're gonnafind more shame.
It's a bottomless pit of shame.
So, yes, we need to releaseshame, but sitting with shame is
(38:34):
a dangerous thing to tell peopleto do because they can just get
lost in that and end up in avery, very dark black hole.
SPEAKER_00 (38:42):
You've brought up so many good points and definitions
and ways to fix this and ways tosee it.
Is there any lasting words ofencouragement or wisdom that you
want to leave with listeners?
SPEAKER_01 (38:55):
Well, I would just say you can you can reject this
thing and you can take back yourpower from this thing.
You don't owe it anything.
It's it's been sucking your lifedry.
And you don't even need yourabuser to change, you don't need
the person who's been abusingyou to change.
You change yourself and takeback your power, and that will
(39:15):
be that's the best gift that youcan give to yourself.
Stop trying to change otherpeople and work on yourself and
taking that and you becomeunshamable.
That's real, that's the realflex.
When you become unshameable,people come up to you and say
whatever insults, and it's justlike bounces right off you
because you know that that is alame attempt at a projection of
(39:40):
shame that they can't deal withthemselves.
And you don't have to take it.
Like the Buddha said, you know,if somebody comes with a gift,
you couldn't, you don't have totake it.
You let them, they bring it toyour home, you send them off
with it.
You don't have to take that fromthem, and you don't have to take
anyone's shame.
Take it, take back your powerand let them deal with their own
(40:00):
shame.
SPEAKER_00 (40:02):
Perfect.
Thank you so much, Emma, foryour time and all of this
conversation.
This is definitely somethingthat needs to be talked about
more.
SPEAKER_01 (40:10):
Amazing.
I hope uh people got great valuefrom this.
SPEAKER_00 (40:13):
I think so.
Brilliant.
Thank you again, Emma, forjoining me today.
And thank you, Warriors, forlistening.
I've included the links Emma wasreferring to as well as her one
in three profile in the shownotes.
I will be back next week withanother episode for you.
Until then, stay strong.
And wherever you are in yourjourney, always remember you are
(40:36):
not alone.
Find more information, registeras a guest, or leave a review by
going to the website one andthreepodcast.com.
That's the number one the numberthree podcast.com.
Follow one in three onInstagram, Facebook, and Twitter
at one and three podcast.
(40:56):
To help me out, please rememberto rate review and subscribe.
One and three is a.5 Pinoyproduction.
Music written and performed byTim Crow.
Hi, Warriors, welcome to Win and Three.
I'm your host, Ingrid.
Shame.
It's an all-too familiar feelingfor I'm going to be bold here
and say every victim andsurvivor of domestic violence.
My guest today dives deep intoshame, what it does to our inner
psyche, how to recognize it, andwhat we should do about it.
(01:10):
Please join me in welcomingEmma.
Hi, Emma.
Thank you for joining me today.
Thank you so much.
Great to be here, Ingrid.
Yes, I'm thrilled to have you.
So before we get into ourconversation, could you give
some of a background so peopleget to know you a little bit?
SPEAKER_01 (01:27):
Okay.
Well, um I fairly recentlydiscovered all my life I've
really suffered from feeling notgood enough.
I thought it was ugly, I thoughtI was stupid, all the all the
things, right?
And I thought I was the problem.
I thought I was from, you know,good family, I was loved and
everything.
So it was all I knew.
(01:48):
But when I broke my leg a yearago, I started to realize that
my family was more dysfunctionaland that my mom was quite
manipulative.
And I started to put togetherthat she actually fits all the
traits of a covert narcissistand that my family is quite
enmeshed and guilting.
And I'm then I started toidentify.
(02:10):
Well, I started to identifybefore I identified that she was
a covert narcissist, that I hadbeen kind of the scapegoat
within this dysfunctionalsystem.
And once the once I realizedthat, I was like, yes, I take
every single box of thescapegoat.
And what happens with thescapegoat is that you kind of
get to be the lad and fill forall the shame and unprocessed
(02:32):
crap of the family.
So you end up internalizingshame, you know, with beliefs
like I'm stupid, I'm ugly, I'myou know, all the things, I hate
my body, I'll never amount toanything, all those things, they
don't just land in a child'sbrain by for no reason.
They happen because there's theenvironment kind of stirs them
(02:52):
up and reinforces them.
So when I started to see that, Istarted to really take back my
power.
And because I realized thatshame is the underlying problem.
I had been doing um all thishealing, all this therapy for
years and years, or for adecade, maybe 15, 20 years
really.
(03:13):
And it was kind of like takingone step forward and one step
back, two steps forward and twosteps back constantly, like just
doing feng shui in the furniturewhen the house is on fire.
And once I started to realizethe deeper pattern in my family,
I realized that this really isthe thing that's keeping it all
in place.
(03:33):
It's it's shame.
Um, because you know, eventhough you're doing all the
manifesting and thinking aboutthe positive, if you've got
shame going on in thebackground, it's like this
anchor that keeps pulling youdown to the bottom of the ocean.
And uh, because shame says youcan't, or it's not safe.
And uh, you know, that was thatwas where I was.
(03:55):
I was just going round and roundin circles until I revealed this
underlying pattern.
And then I started to realize,you know, that I had
internalized this voice, andthat that was where the inner
narcissist idea came from.
And also I started to see thatthis kind of narcissistic
patterns happen everywhere, youknow, particularly where you
have the scapegoat, the enabler,and the the kind of narcissist,
(04:20):
the autocrat.
I started to see, wow, this thisechoes everywhere.
You see it in corporations, yousee it in families, obviously,
because that's where at firstinverts we internalize it.
You see it in governments.
Uh, all leaders kind of havethis narcissistic template, and
they all operate on the currencythat is shame.
This is how they control people,and this is how we internalize
(04:44):
that system because it's sonormalized, and this is how we
think that it's the best way tocontrol ourselves.
We're like, we don't like whatwe're doing, so we shame
ourselves in the hope that we'llchange.
But uh really it it doesn't workbecause shame just makes you
small, it makes you shrink, itmakes you feel like you're being
attacked.
And it's actually a very poorindicator for long, medium to
(05:08):
long term changes of behavior.
It works in the moment.
Like if I chain a child herebecause they're bothering me,
they'll still be quiet veryquickly.
But in the it doesn't changetheir behavior in the medium to
long term, and this is likeshame has just been so
normalized in our toxic culture.
Um this is this it's really thethe cornerstone of so many, so
(05:33):
many different pathologies thatpeople have, you can trace them
back to shame.
I was on a podcast aboutaddictions yesterday, and you
know, the really this thiswoman, the woman that I was
speaking to, they all had, youknow, they're really related to
it about how I speak about shamebecause it is that voice that
tells you, who are you?
And you when you drink, you kindof put paws on it.
(05:56):
And the same I was on a podcastabout bulimia, and again, it's
shame.
It's like this, it's not eventhe belief that you're bad,
you're faulty, you'redysfunctional.
It's like self-annihilation.
That's what shame is.
It's a toxic cocktail of, youknow, the belief that I'm bad is
downstream from this toxiccocktail of uh emotions like
(06:18):
self-loathing, anger turnedinwards, sadness, depression.
It's like self-attack.
And we're told that it's goodfor you.
We're told that shame is goodfor you and that you need a bit
to be a good person.
And I just think that's completeBS.
That's complete gaslighting bysociety.
And I understand where it'scoming from.
(06:40):
It's coming from a society whereshame is so normalized that
people think that it's part ofwhat it is to be human and to be
a good person.
But I would argue that we don'tneed shame to be a good person.
We need, we don't need shame tobe humble.
We need humility.
We don't need shame in order tochange our behavior, recognize
that we've done, we've hurtsomeone.
(07:00):
That's empathy.
And shame actively shuts downour ability to empathize in the
brain.
So I just think this, this,there's a false narrative that
shame is good for you and thatit changes your behavior.
And it's coming to us from everysingle angle.
And basically, it's just pushinga toxic narrative that's uh
(07:20):
making us shame ourselves moreand take projections of shame
that's coming from absolutelyeverywhere.
The family, businesses,advertisement everywhere.
SPEAKER_00 (07:31):
Right.
And I mean, shame, like yousaid, it comes from everywhere.
And having a domestic violencepodcast that a lot of the
listeners can relate withfeeling shame at some point.
Yeah, you know, the abuser isgoing to either falsify reasons
of why you should feel shamedfor whatever, you know, fake
narrative or something that youtruly did do.
(07:53):
There's a shame that you carryof why did I stay in that
relationship that long?
How many people did I subject tothis abuse?
You know, were there otherpeople in the home, including
children, that I feel ashamedbecause I subjected them to
that?
And then just the shame of thefact that it happened to you.
So now you've escaped therelationship, you're on your
(08:16):
road to healing, and you stillare ashamed to talk about what
happened because you feel likethat you are taking some
ownership of that.
So shame is a huge thing that alot of listeners are going to.
SPEAKER_01 (08:30):
If I could just say one thing, Ingrid, you don't
need shame.
You don't need to shameyourself.
You know, that's the narrativethat we're told.
You should be ashamed.
Absolutely not.
That's just continuing the cycleof what your uh partner, your
abusive partner did to you.
When you shame yourself, you areinternalizing that voice and
(08:51):
pitting it against yourself.
So you absolutely should notshame yourself.
Yes, recognize I've done harmhere, I've damaged myself, but
you do not need shame to becomea good person.
This is a huge lie that we'rebeing gaslit with.
You do not need shame in orderto recognize mistakes that
you've made in the past.
Mistakes that you've made, andlet's be real, we've all made
(09:13):
mistakes, we've all hurt people,we've all hurt ourselves, but we
don't need to shame ourselvesabout them.
This is this is the idea.
If I suffer enough, if I beatmyself up enough, then I'll
clean myself of my skin sins.
You know, this is kind of theChristian idea, just beat myself
and I'll be better.
It doesn't work.
You know, our our entire systemis built around shame.
(09:35):
If you look at the prisonsystem, it's built on shaming.
People go out of prison, theycommit the crimes again, they
commit worse crimes.
Shame does not work.
It does not work neurologically,it doesn't work societally, it
works in the moment, but it doesnot work in the medium to long
term.
So we gotta recognize that shameis toxic and cut it out.
SPEAKER_00 (09:56):
Yeah, I agree with you in the shame that people
feel, they're getting, it'sagain, like you mentioned, it
comes from everywhere thatsociety is saying you shouldn't
be talking about these thingsbecause it's an embarrassing
situation.
And I do love what you saidabout you need humility, you
need empathy, you don'tnecessarily need shame.
Or not necessarily, you don't,you just don't need shame.
Um, I'm really, really excitedto get into more of uh your
(10:19):
whole thought process behind allof this.
But before we do, can you justgo over some definitions, like
what is covert narcissism, andthen uh then go into you talk
started talking about this innernarcissist.
SPEAKER_01 (10:31):
Okay, well, first before I talk about the covert
type of narcissist, I'll talkabout the the regular type of
narcissist, the obvious, you'reDonald Trump's, you know, the
obvious kind of grandiose typeof type of narcissist.
They're they're grandiose,they're self-important, they're
they're preoccupied withfantasies of unlimited success,
(10:51):
and you know, they're deserving,they feel like they're special,
they need admiration, there is asense of entitlement there,
they're they exploit people, um,they lack empathy, and they're
envious of others, or you know,believe other people are envious
of them.
So that's that's that's thenarcissist, that's kind of the
(11:13):
DSM definition of thenarcissist.
And it's all driven by shame, byrepress shame.
Like this is what this they'vethey've decided because
narcissists react defensively tocriticism because they start
they their their entire identityis built on shame and repress
(11:34):
shame.
So if you're if you're thinkabout someone who's really
confident and someone criticizesyou, you're gonna be like, okay,
whatever, you know, you'reentitled to your opinion.
But narcissists, no, they takeit personally, they feel shame,
they feel offended, and this iswhy they go on the attack.
And you see that with yourDonald Trumps and everyone like
that.
But narcissism is really, itcomes from shame, it's rooted in
(11:56):
shame.
So that's that's narcissism.
Now, these are the very overttypes, the grandiose types are
very obvious.
Then you have the more coverttypes, which are more, oh, poor
me, I'm so sorry, oh my God,this terrible thing has
happened.
Oh, everybody think about me andhow poor I am.
So it's kind of you're stillbeing the center of attention,
(12:19):
require admiration, and and youcan, and that the the covert
narcissist is stillexploitative.
They'll guilt and shame peoplefor their feelings, they will
lack empathy where they will putthemselves first and they will
experience envy of others, butit's in a more covert manner.
It's not as obvious because theytend to be more, they're not, oh
(12:42):
wow, I'm so amazing, I'm thebest thing ever, you know, the
big, beautiful, I'm the biggest,more beautiful thing in the
world.
You know, they're they're muchmore low-key.
They will require to be thecenter of attention, but in a
much more low-key, and oftenbecause they're kind, they they
feel victimized or feel like, ohmy god, my body is falling
(13:02):
apart, I've got this happening,and they'll they'll deflect from
talking about other people totheir own pain or whatever is
going on for them.
So that's the covert narcissist.
SPEAKER_00 (13:15):
I have a quick question before you go on to the
next one.
Is it possible for someone tofluctuate between being an overt
narcissist and a covertnarcissist or have different uh,
you know, perhaps they're covertwith this individual, but then
they're displaying like veryobvious signs of narcissism to
other people?
SPEAKER_01 (13:35):
Uh, usually it will be one or the other.
So they usually don't have thatmuch kind of model.
Usually, if someone isgrandiose, they're going to be
grandiose the whole time, andvice versa.
So this is why it's much, muchless obvious.
And you know, a lot of people'sabusers, they might have been an
overt narcissist, very obvious.
Other people will see that thatperson is super toxic.
(13:59):
And that can be validating.
You know, you can be like, wow,other people see that your
partner is abusive.
So you don't feel so much thatyou are the problem.
But when you've got a covertnarcissist abuser, you can
internalize it more.
It can be even more um corrosivebecause you kind of think, well,
I'm I'm the problem.
My partner is loving, eventhough they may be manipulating
(14:22):
you and kind of invalidating youconstantly.
And that's that's very damagingas well.
Even more insidious in someways, because you end up taking
on more than your fair share ofthe blame, really.
So though those are the that'sthe overt and the covert
narcissist.
And then you wanted me that whatI realized is that I did is that
(14:45):
I, you know, having been broughtup in this dysfunctional family,
I had been scapegoated.
And like I said, the scapegoat,you've you're basically the
landvil for the unprocessed shitof the family, the unprocessed
intergenerational trauma.
So you take all that on and youinternalize it against yourself.
You're like, I'm stupid, I'mugly, and I'll never meant
(15:08):
anything, I'll never have apartner, all those thoughts.
This is what happens when you'rein a kind of toxic environment,
because it can't be,particularly if it's a parent, a
partner, it can't be them.
I must be the problem.
This is how we cope.
And we take shame and we kind ofshame as a sword, but we also it
also can be a shield.
So we're like, we kind of defendor we think we can defend
(15:29):
ourselves with shame.
We're like, I'll kind of beatthem to the punch.
If I shame myself enough, thenI'll become better and I can't
be hurt by other people'sshaming.
That's kind of the childlikeprocessing that happens.
So this is where the shameoriginates and all that, all
those negative, that supernegative self-talk.
It doesn't come from outerspace, it comes from our
(15:51):
environment.
And this this uh this I call it,it's often called the inner
critic in common parlance, youknow, when we're taught that
this voice is trying to protectyou, you know.
Oh, it doesn't want you to be onthat podcast or do that thing
because it's trying to keep yousafe.
But I've what I've recognizedwith my own inner critic is that
(16:13):
no, just like the covertnarcissist that tells you, you
can't be a yoga teacher, youcan't do that podcast, that's
not them protecting you, that'sthem protecting them.
Okay, so the the narcissist willpunch you in the face, kick you
in the balls, and then tell you,you made me do it.
I'm doing it for your own sake.
It's complete gaslighting.
(16:33):
And yet, culturally, we'retaught that this voice that
we've internalized that shamesus constantly, that it's some
kind of protector, that it'ssomething that it's trying to
keep us safe, that it's tryingto look after us.
Absolutely not.
That your higher self orwhatever you want to call it,
your guardian or whatever it is,your intuition, it will not
(16:54):
shame you.
That will not shame you.
Wounded child will not shameyou.
This this is different.
This is much more insidious.
This is uh, this is basically itticks all the boxes of the
narcissist, but the call iscoming from inside the house.
And rather than beinginterpersonally exploitative, it
exploits you and it has noempathy.
And it's 100% self-serving.
(17:16):
It's not trying to care for you,it's trying to destroy you, it's
trying to keep you small andkeep you tiny and keep you in
your little box so it can becomfortable.
And once I started to realizethis and stopped coddling this
voice, I started, I stoppedfeeding it and started taking my
power back from it.
And that was really the turningpoint for me because all my life
(17:38):
I've been taught to sit downwith this thing, send it love,
and it's just a parasite.
It's a parasite, just like ifyou have if you have a parasite
in your gut, you don't send loveto it.
You take your freaking medicine,get the thing out of you.
And this uh this shame voice,this inner narcissist is the
same.
The narcissist on the outside,they're the same, they're
parasitic.
(17:58):
They need narcissistic supply tobe to survive because they are
shells of people.
They're sh they're a shellwithout you.
They need your life force inorder to survive.
And this is really empowering.
This is not a shaming idea.
This really allows you to takeback your power from this thing
(18:19):
and stop calling it you becauseit's not you.
It's insidious, it's a parasite,and you need to cut that thing
off and take your power back.
SPEAKER_00 (18:29):
Do you think that it's so easy to allow what
you're calling the innernarcissist to thrive because
it's a comfortable space thatyou know individuals have been
in, a victim of domesticviolence where they've been, you
know, abused mentally andpsychologically by their abuser.
And this is just a familiarspace for them to continue that
(18:51):
self-flagellation beyond therelationship.
SPEAKER_01 (18:53):
100% scapegoats go on to attract more scapegoating.
So it's what you imprint fromyour childhood, you seek it
because it's kind of youremotional home, your familiar
zone.
So you this is why people, youknow, they they they go uh go
out with someone who's abusive,marry someone who's abusive,
break up with them, find anotherone that's exactly the same with
(19:14):
a different face, and the samepattern plays out.
Because it's not just aboutchanging your partner, you've
got to change the patternsinside you that that made you
attracted to that energy, thatuh that that um that level of
control and manipulation.
So this this isn't about blaminganyone.
(19:35):
This is about you take back yourpower.
You can take back your power.
You don't need a new partner,you need to change the thoughts
and beliefs and feelings thatare that are attracting that
kind of dynamic.
And it's not your fault, but itis your responsibility to change
that, and you can change it,you're not a victim.
So, how do you change it?
(19:56):
Well, first of all, you've gotto recognize that shame is not
is not useful ever, ever.
And this is the this is thething where really part ways
with the conventional wisdomthat says that shame is good for
you.
You know, even if you look atthe English language, you have
no shame.
This is this is what we say topeople when they're acting out
(20:19):
or doing something that makes mefeel uncomfortable.
You have no shame, you'reshameless, you you're shameful.
So shame is really always aboutcontrol.
And like I said, it doesn't,there's this idea behind this
terminology, shameless andshameful, that shame regulates
your behavior, it makes you be agood boy or a good girl, and you
(20:41):
have to ex you have to have somelevel of shame in order to be
good, a good person.
And that's completely that thatdoesn't even stand up to the
facts because people acting outof repressed shame are often the
most violent, the mostdysfunctional.
Like I talked about narcissistsand narcissistic collectives and
cults and things, they'rethey're they're narcissistic
(21:01):
groups and families,dysfunctional families, they're
operating out of repressed shameand they're very destructive and
very damaging for everyoneinvolved.
So to say that we need shame inorder to be good, it's a it's a
collective mirage that we're allunder in our society.
And a kind of this a type ofindividualized shame that you're
(21:23):
bad and that you it kind ofcomes that you're bad just for
existing.
It kind of has its roots inorganized religion, um,
particularly Christianity, andthis idea of original sin.
Before that, uh, we did haveshame as well, like in groups
that was kind of morehonor-shaming.
You know, if you step out ofline or do something that that
(21:44):
shames the family, then youwould be shamed for that.
Again, it's about control aswell.
But it's not, you're not shamedfor who you are, you're shamed
because you've done somethingthat brings shame on the family.
So in theory, there's a way toremedy it, and it's not for who
you are, your identity.
It's also super corrosive.
It's also the the leading causeof, you know, onaliving,
(22:08):
self-onaliving.
And um, in the West, you know,where this is kind of the
underpinning of our culture,this kind of individualized type
of shame that says, you're asinner, you're bad, you have to
be punished, you have toexperience pain in order to
remedy yourself, in order to begood enough.
There's this idea that you haveto suffer.
(22:28):
You know, this idea they have tosuffer, they have to flagellate
yourself in order to be better.
And the truth is, changedoesn't, shame doesn't help
people change.
It quite the contrary, it uhconcretizes their behavior.
You know, people tend to be,like I said, become more
defensive in their position andthey tend to change less.
(22:50):
We need, we maybe we need guilt,we need a bit of guilt.
We need to recognize that wewe've done something wrong, not
that we're bad, because when itcomes to when when our identity
feels attacked, that puts usinto survival mode, that puts us
into defensiveness.
And it's very hard to climb outof that.
So we don't need more shame, weneed less shame.
(23:12):
That's first of all.
So recognize that shame isalways corrosive, it doesn't
help you grow, it doesn't helpyou be stronger, it helps you
shrink and stay small and be avictim of life.
And that's not to blame.
I've lived with shame for a longtime, so I know what it feels
like, but you've got to breakthe trance of shame, really.
And I have an acronym,B-R-E-A-K.
(23:34):
So B is about breaking thetrance.
Recognize that this isn't yourvoice, and it's a spell.
And it's not always a voice,it's like an emotional cocktail
of self-disgust.
You know, it takes so it hijacksyour body like nothing else.
So this is a spell, it's apattern, it's a collective
trance that we're all in.
So you've got to catch it,interrupt it, and really name
(23:57):
it.
This is a trance, and thatautomatically disrupts the loop.
After you've recognized thatit's never healthy, it's never
good for you.
Then R refuse to engage.
So this is Dr.
Ramani who talks aboutnarcissists, she talks about
deep.
Don't defend, don't engage,don't explain, and don't
personalize.
(24:17):
So don't get into fighting withthis voice or arguing with it.
Just drop the rope.
You don't argue with a trance orsomebody put you under a spell.
It's not gonna work.
You just give it more energy.
Just say, not today.
And you don't owe it anycourtesy because it's not a
wounded child, right?
The narcissist, the narcissistthat you internalize, it's not a
(24:38):
wounded part.
You know, you're not gonna loveit away.
Um, just like with thenarcissist out there, you don't
love them enough so that they'llchange.
This is delusion, you know.
So then you've got to e exposethe lie.
So call out the shame-basedprogramming.
What's it saying?
That you're stupid, that you cannever do anything right, uh that
you're an idiot.
(24:59):
It's not true.
This is not empirical, it's notan empirical truth.
You have done things correctlyonce, at least once in your
life, you have.
It's not true.
It's a lie.
This is all about control.
This is not your story, it's nottrue.
And speaking that truth reallydisarms its power.
Recognizing that it'smanipulative.
(25:19):
Shame is always, alwaysmanipulative.
It's always manipulative.
And that's what I'd loved forpeople to recognize that when
you shame yourself, when or whenthat voice shames you, when you
shame your child, or when it'smanipulative.
And you might think you're doingit for the benefit of that other
person, but no, you're you'remanipulating them.
People manipulate others all thetime, unconsciously.
(25:40):
So expose the lie.
Then you want to anchor thetruth because, like I said,
shame hijacks your body likenothing else.
I don't know if you'veexperienced a shame attack, but
like your face goes red, youshrink, you want to disappear,
you have all these thoughtsracing.
So you've got to come back toyour body, feel your breath,
plant your feet, say your name,the year, really remind your
(26:03):
nervous system, and you can eventouch yourself.
I'm safe, I'm sovereign, I'mhere.
Because, like I said, shame putsyou into survival mode, like
nothing else that I know of.
And then kick it out.
You can even do this, you canshake it off, physically stomp
it out, say it out loud, this isnot mine, and really reject it.
(26:23):
That's that's how you do it.
And I'm not saying it's easy.
It's simple, but it's not easybecause if you've been
practicing shame, you've beengiving it fuel and dancing for
it and sending it love and youknow, performing for it and
trying to negotiate with it'sgot 20, 30, 40 years of supply
there.
So it's built, it's may havebuilt into something quite
(26:45):
malignant.
So for you to change, take backyour power from that, it's gonna
take a little bit of practice,but it is possible.
Can still you can break up withthis voice because it's not you
and it's not trying to protectyou, it's not trying to keep you
safe.
It's it it is trying to destroyyou.
SPEAKER_00 (27:07):
Okay, so it so it's like a learned or even a taught
thought process because you'rebeing influenced to by outside
sources, whether it's family orsociety or an abusive partner,
that's the the influence that'steaching you to think this way
about yourself.
And right?
SPEAKER_01 (27:27):
I believe that shame is taught, yes.
Because uh shame really onlyexists as a thing in kind of
hierarchical societies.
And it's always about control,you know, who wins.
If you look at any other emotionlike anger or you know, fear,
there's a positive use.
Anger, somebody's crossed myboundaries, and I need to say
(27:49):
no.
Uh, fear, there's a dangerousanimal there.
I need to run in the oppositedirection.
So fear and anger and all theuncomfortable sadness, there's a
message there, there's somethingpositive.
Shame, no.
Shame makes you shrink.
Guilt, you could argue, but yourecognize that you've done
something bad, but get butshame, absolutely not.
(28:09):
It makes you shrink.
The only people that win hereare the people in control, the
people manipulating you, peopletrying to control you and keep
you small.
And you can stop doing that toyourself.
You can stop taking the bait,taking the hook.
And the cool thing is that onceyou, the more you exorcise, if
you like, this uh this in innernarcissist, this internalized
(28:32):
narcissist, the more immune youkind of inoculate yourself
against shaming from theoutside.
Someone was telling me a storyon a podcast a few weeks ago
about um their aunt when theywere younger and they were they
were a bit podgy and they wereeating ice cream outside.
And this this adult came up tothem and said, You shouldn't be
eating ice cream, you'll getfat.
(28:53):
And just think about howshaming, how much shame they
could have felt.
These girls, they laughed in hisface.
And this is this is the power.
In order for you to experienceshame, you need that voice
inside your head that says, Yes,you are fat, yes, you have a big
nose, yes, you are stupid.
Otherwise, you'll just think,return to sender, not mine.
(29:13):
You're crazy.
You know, you're entitled toyour opinion.
It'll just wash, it'll just washright back to them.
That is, it's shame is always aprojection because shame is not
an emotion that we can digestnormally.
It's not a normal emotion, it'scompletely abnormal and it's
always about control.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (29:33):
And I think ultimately someone's opinion of
you has more to do withthemselves than it actually does
of you.
SPEAKER_01 (29:40):
Exactly.
So you don't have to take thatin.
You don't have to experience theshame.
So shame is really at itsfoundation an inner process, an
internalized process.
You need that inner narcissist,that shame voice to resonate, to
kind of have the hook in orderfor you to experience shame.
Otherwise, you'll just be justlike, wow, okay, that's yours.
(30:02):
Thank you for your projections.
Return to I'm not taking yourgift today.
You can have it back.
SPEAKER_00 (30:08):
Yeah.
And I really like how youdifferentiate between guilt and
shame, because uh guilt isrecognizing that you are a good
person, but you may have made abad decision and you feel guilty
for that decision, but then yougo on understanding that you're
a good person, and shame iswallowing more or less in every
bad decision and every badthought.
SPEAKER_01 (30:31):
And like, but normally when people experience
guilt, it comes with a largeportion, a large side, a very
big side of shame.
So this is why people havedifficulty and people conflate
the two because they theythey're so often.
And enmeshed and merged becauseyou know when we do something
(30:51):
bad, we experience shame.
It's kind of automatic because,again, it's a taught behavior.
But but you know, theresearchers talk about babies
and kids feeling shame.
I believe that that's aprojection as well.
I believe that shame is taught.
You know, babies hiding theirfaces, it's not, it's not shame
necessarily.
That's them playing, that'ssomething else.
(31:13):
But researchers have havedesignated that as shame.
And I believe that's becausewe're in such a shame-infused
culture that we project thateverywhere.
But babies, you-born babies,they don't experience shame.
They're completely shameless.
That's the beauty of babies.
They have no shame.
And we should all be strivingfor that because shame doesn't
(31:34):
make you a better person.
It doesn't regulate yourbehavior.
It makes you worse.
It makes you shrink, it makesyou act out worse.
It leads to all kinds ofaddictions and negative behavior
and you being victimized andscapegoated more in your life.
So, no, reject that voice,reject shame.
You don't need it.
Never ever.
SPEAKER_00 (31:54):
Everything you're saying, it just sounds so
obvious.
Why do you think no one else hasbrought this up before or has
thought of this or is talkingabout this?
SPEAKER_01 (32:02):
Because shame is normalized in our culture.
Like I said, evenlinguistically, you have no
shame.
You're shameless.
These are slurs that peoplethrow around and use all the
time.
You know, it's a natural way tosay that someone is behaving
badly.
They're, you have, they have noshame.
They're shameless.
So it's totally normalized inour culture.
(32:24):
And once you recognize that it'salways a mechanism of control,
you can take back your power andnot be manipulated anymore.
Takes a bit of practice, but itis it is possible.
But you have to recognize thatshaming is going on everywhere
in our culture.
Like if you walk around and youcould do this tomorrow or today,
walk around your city or yourtown and just notice how maybe
(32:47):
you see shaming going on onlineor as you walk around, you know,
yeah, it's everywhere.
People on social media, this ishow this occurrence.
You do something I don't like, Ishame you.
You know, I say you're a badperson.
But you know, a worst casescenario, when collectives are
(33:07):
shamed, you know, you can itcouldn't go up to things like
genocide happens.
That this happens from repressedshame.
I mean, like this, if you lookat the the Nazis, you know, they
were they were shamed.
And then, you know, they respondto that because you have all
this collective shame and youwant to project it on someone
else, you find anotherscapegoat.
And now you with Israel, youknow, the former former golden
(33:30):
child, now they're going on,they're projecting their shame
on a new, on a new entity.
They've become kind of the thetop narcissists in their world
and they're projecting theirshame on a different group of
people because they have notdealt with their collective
shame.
Women have been collectivelyscapegoated as well.
Um, right now, the the mainscapegoat in a lot of countries
(33:53):
is the immigrants.
We have all this on processedshame, all this on-processed
trauma.
It's the immigrants' fault.
So we project it all on them.
And this is how we get somerelease from the shame because
it's very uncomfortable.
Shame is very uncomfortable.
We don't want to feel it.
This is why women pull eachother down.
You know, I feel shame.
(34:14):
So I criticize another woman forhaving wrinkles, for being too
fat, and it makes me feel alittle bit better at the moment
in the moment, but that isshame.
That is projection.
SPEAKER_00 (34:26):
Right.
And again, it's it's just it hasto do with that other person.
That other person's looking inthe mirror, not liking something
about themselves.
And so they'll find pieces toknock others down.
Okay, do you think that we'vemissed anything?
I mean, we've covered a lot.
Because I mean fixing it, fixingit is recognizing it, and then
probably just any kind oftherapeutic modality to address
(34:51):
that underlying issue that worksfor each individual, you think?
SPEAKER_01 (34:54):
Yeah.
So really the key thing isrecognizing that shame is not
useful ever.
Once you start being aware ofthat, and then when shame starts
to take over you, what starts tohijack you, that voice says, Oh
my god, you're lazy, you're bad.
You can recognize it and gothrough that break process and
just say, No, I'm not doingthat.
(35:16):
No, take it back.
I'm not, I'm not taking this.
And it sounds so simple, but itis effective because this thing,
excuse me, it's a it's aparasite.
Just like the narcissist outthere, they're parasitic.
They need to get the supply fromother people.
They're nothing without you.
So it's like if you imagine alight bulb, it gets all its
(35:38):
power from you.
You know, it takes it takes allits electricity from you.
Once you stop feeding it, it'lllose its supply and it dries up
and you take back your power.
But it might take a bit of a itmight be a bit of a process
because you know, like I said,you may have been feeding it and
performing it and practicing itfor 40, 50, 60 years, whatever.
So it's got a bit of a, it's gota bit of a it's got a bit of
(36:01):
momentum there.
So this why I work with peoplein groups, so we have this kind
of collective, collectiveworking together to really, it's
called my program is calledReclaim Your Shameless.
So it's about really reclaimingyour power without shame,
because shame has been used forway too long to control people,
(36:21):
to keep women down, to keepindigenous people down, to keep
children down, to to make peoplecomfortable who are higher up on
the wrong.
It's it's a hierarchical tool,weapon of control, and nothing
else.
There, there is no positive useof shame.
SPEAKER_00 (36:39):
So let's talk about that a little bit.
How do people get in touch withyou?
How do they get um if theywanted to join this group?
SPEAKER_01 (36:45):
Yeah, you can um, I'm on social media, I'm on
trauma.matrix on Instagram andTikTok and everywhere.
I have a YouTube channel aswell.
And you can you can also um I'mon Sub Substack.
I've written lots of articlesabout it.
So there I'm the trauma matrix.
Um, so send me a DM over there.
And I also have a free gift aswell for people.
(37:08):
If you're raising your hand andthinking, oh my god, this this
inner narcissist thing, I canrelate.
I have a free gift for you.
It's five signs that it's timeit's time to break up with your
inner narcissist.
And it gives you those fivesigns that really you need to
break up with this thing, andalso gives you strategies and
tools to make that happen.
(37:29):
So that would be a really goodnext step.
And you can find that attinyurl.com forward slash not
today narc n c I love not today.
That's yeah, not today.
Not today today.
Yeah, not today.
Not today.
So when the shame comes up, nottoday.
(37:49):
Try again, try again later.
You know, you don't, you don't,you don't owe it.
And the program that I wasrunning, the workshops that I
was running were called nottoday, bitch.
You know, because you don't youdon't have to give this thing,
you don't owe it any courtesy.
It's not a wounded child.
Um this is the thing, this isthe problem that I have with
kind of the conventional way ofdealing with this thing.
(38:10):
It teaches people how to coddleit, to sit down with the shame.
And I feel like that's verydangerous because when you sit
down with shame, what'sunderneath shame?
It's not a normal emotion.
Underneath anger, you might findgrief or something else, but
underneath shame, you're gonnafind more shame.
It's a bottomless pit of shame.
So, yes, we need to releaseshame, but sitting with shame is
(38:34):
a dangerous thing to tell peopleto do because they can just get
lost in that and end up in avery, very dark black hole.
SPEAKER_00 (38:42):
You've brought up so many good points and definitions
and ways to fix this and ways tosee it.
Is there any lasting words ofencouragement or wisdom that you
want to leave with listeners?
SPEAKER_01 (38:55):
Well, I would just say you can you can reject this
thing and you can take back yourpower from this thing.
You don't owe it anything.
It's it's been sucking your lifedry.
And you don't even need yourabuser to change, you don't need
the person who's been abusingyou to change.
You change yourself and takeback your power, and that will
(39:15):
be that's the best gift that youcan give to yourself.
Stop trying to change otherpeople and work on yourself and
taking that and you becomeunshamable.
That's real, that's the realflex.
When you become unshameable,people come up to you and say
whatever insults, and it's justlike bounces right off you
because you know that that is alame attempt at a projection of
(39:40):
shame that they can't deal withthemselves.
And you don't have to take it.
Like the Buddha said, you know,if somebody comes with a gift,
you couldn't, you don't have totake it.
You let them, they bring it toyour home, you send them off
with it.
You don't have to take that fromthem, and you don't have to take
anyone's shame.
Take it, take back your powerand let them deal with their own
(40:00):
shame.
SPEAKER_00 (40:02):
Perfect.
Thank you so much, Emma, foryour time and all of this
conversation.
This is definitely somethingthat needs to be talked about
more.
SPEAKER_01 (40:10):
Amazing.
I hope uh people got great valuefrom this.
SPEAKER_00 (40:13):
I think so.
Brilliant.
Thank you again, Emma, forjoining me today.
And thank you, Warriors, forlistening.
I've included the links Emma wasreferring to as well as her one
in three profile in the shownotes.
I will be back next week withanother episode for you.
Until then, stay strong.
And wherever you are in yourjourney, always remember you are
(40:36):
not alone.
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going to the website one andthreepodcast.com.
That's the number one the numberthree podcast.com.
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(40:56):
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One and three is a.5 Pinoyproduction.
Music written and performed byTim Crow.
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