August 16, 2022 • 51 mins
Professor Denis Leclerc tells us why you should “Learn something new every day”; why you should ”Learn to slow down; why it’s important not to “judge people too fast” and more. Hosted by Siebe Van Der Zee.
About Professor Denis LeclercDr. Denis Leclerc teaches cross-cultural communication and global negotiations at Thunderbird School of Global Management. His interests and research have focused on intercultural communication competence and global negotiation. At Thunderbird, Denis teaches in multiple programs such as the on-campus Master of Global Management, Executive MGM, customized programs such as Thunderbird International Consortia, and multiple oil and gas executive programs. He also serves as the academic director for multiple custom programs such as Raytheon, Novartis and Medtronic, and open-enrollment programs in negotiation and leading diverse teams.
Before joining Thunderbird, Denis taught at Arizona State University and served for eight years as director of multiple international studies abroad programs there. He directed and served on numerous master’s and Ph.D. committees in the U.S. and Europe. He was co-program evaluator for a National Science Foundation (NSF) three-year grant examining the cultural adaptation of U.S. scientists working in scientific laboratories abroad. This research project was instrumental in guiding NSF to redesign program components to include cross-cultural training for their international assignments.
Denis has been published in leading journals in his field including the International Journal of Intercultural Relations, and has been a contributor to Readers in Communication, authoring a chapter on the impact of culture on global negotiations.
Denis is also an active and highly sought-after consultant. As the principal of his own consulting company, he has conducted cross-cultural research for companies in North America and France. Additionally, he has provided support for international program evaluations and has planned, facilitated, and analyzed professional development seminars for a wide range of executive programs throughout the U.S. and Europe. He is a keynote speaker and seminar leader for various companies such as American Express, U.S. Chamber of Commerce, and ExxonMobil on topics as varied as cultural misunderstanding, improving multi-cultural awareness, and cultural strategic negotiation preparation.
In 2008, 2009, 2014 and 2022 he was voted the most valuable professor by the Thunderbird Executive MGM students. In 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2016, he was voted most outstanding faculty member by the Thunderbird MGM students. He also ranks as one of the best professors in all the corporate programs that he participates in.
A native of Normandy, France, Denis completed a maitrise in cultural geography (honors) from L’Universite de Haute Normandie, Rouen, France, and then a master’s in international tourism at Arizona State University. He received his Ph.D. in cross-cultural communication from the Hugh Downs School of Communication at Arizona State University. He received his certifications for the Global Mindset Inventory from Thunderbird and the COM/COI from the Training Management Corporation. As one of his last research interest, Denis is publishing an entrepreneurial journey book that will be available September 2022.
Episode Notes
Lesson 1: Learn something new every day, even if it is a new word 06:36 Lesson 2: Never stay angry. Anger will eat you alive 08:58 Lesson 3: Managing stress is like “Start where you are, use what you have, do what you can.” (Quote by Arthur Ash) 12:33 Lesson 4: Don’t judge people too fast, we have more in
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Oh yeah.
Because usually we getrewarded for doing that.
I mean, professionally, if you dosomething very well, then you're like,
that's it I don't have to, to stretchmyself, but to me, it's in the stretching
and learning something new that youget new learning, you get new options.
You, you get new perspectives.
Hello and welcome to our program 10lessons it took me 50 years to learn where
(00:24):
we talk to business people, journalists,professors, ambassadors, leaders, and
luminaries from all over the world.
My name is Siebe Van Der Zee.
And I'm your host.
I'm originally from the Netherlandshappily residing in the beautiful
Grand Canyon state of Arizona.
I'm also known as theDutchman in the desert.
I hope you will enjoy our program.
(00:45):
Our guest today isProfessor Denis Leclerc.
Denis Leclerc is Professor ofCross-cultural Communications and Global
Negotiations at the Thunderbird Schoolof Global Management at Arizona State
University, a native of Normandy inFrance, Dennis received his doctorate
in cross-cultural communicationsfrom the Hugh Downs School of Human
(01:06):
Communication at Arizona State University.
At the Thunderbird Schoolof Global Management, Dennis
teaches multiple programs,including an on campus MBA class.
An executive MBA program.
And a customized corporate programfor major companies, such as
Raytheon, Novartis, and Medtronic.
Dennis has been published inleading journals, and he's also
(01:29):
active as a business consultantin north America and in France.
He is a sought after keynote speaker andseminar leader for organizations such
as American Express, the US Chamber ofCommerce, ExxonMobil, and others on topics
like cultural misunderstanding, improvingmulticultural awareness and cultural
(01:50):
strategic negotiation preparation.
That's a mouthful.
You can learn, learn more about ProfessorLeclerc on our website 10 lessons
learned.com Bonjour Denis comment ca va?.
Thank you for joining us
Bonjoir, bonjour.
Ca va tres bein et toi?.
Well, Nous pouvant parler on Francais,
I suggest we don't speak French, but, uh,it's very nice to have you as our guest,
(02:15):
global communicator professor wonderful.
When we talk aboutcross-cultural communications,
what would be the definition?
How would you describe that field?
Because it seems to cover so much.
Hmm.
You know, actually, it'sa very good question.
To my definition of cross culturalcommunication might be difference if
(02:35):
you go and talk to other professors,but it's really our ability using
communication to close the gap, closethe differences we have cause we have way
more in common than we have differences.
So to me, what I try to remind peoplewhen we do cross cultural communications
is actually the ability we have offinding common grounds, common knowledge,
(02:59):
common experiences with other people.
So that would be my definition.
Well, it, it coversliterally a lot of ground.
This is global it's international.
Is it also domestic within countries?
Oh yeah.
Oh absolutely.
I mean, it's also like, you know, ifyou take countries like, uh, you know,
the us, for example, that, you know,you have people from the west coast
(03:22):
are very different from people fromthe east, you know, north and south.
I mean, you always have peoplein the south of France are very
different from the north of France.
People in the south of the Netherlandsare different from the people
in the north of the Netherlands.
I learned that, you know, goingthrough store one times, like.
Really.
And they're like, oh no, no, no.
You're you use an expression that isonly used in the south of the Netherland.
So, you know, there'salways disparity that way.
(03:44):
very true.
Very true.
is there perhaps, uh, a lesson thatyou have learned in your life, in
your international life that youwould like to teach yourself if
you would be 30 years old today
to be more patient, to be, uh, yeah, tobe more patient to observe, to, to not,
(04:07):
to not be the one talking all the time.
I think in, I think in my thirties,I was trying to show off like who
I was and kind of what I knew.
And I think that's, you know, listento people is way more interesting.
There's wisdom in that.
No doubt at the same time, as aprofessor, as a business consultant,
You are asked to communicate andshare your thoughts and wisdom.
(04:30):
not to put you on the spot, but howdo you combine that with listening?
Oh, no, actually I think it's,super important because like, for
example, if you look at, if youlisten to like doing consulting and
businesses, it's all about listening.
I mean, if you coach somebody, it's youlistening to them and, you know, asking
them the right questions, you can getdown to the, what their real issue is.
(04:51):
And if you just come up and say,I'm gonna tell you how to do it.
It's it's not as interesting.
I mean, my teaching, for example, now,if I look at how I start to teach 20
years ago, 25 years ago, compared to howI teach now, my role is to teach is to
be the one who speak the least amountduring my classes, I, I present a concept.
(05:11):
Then I have the students talkingto each other and we come back
and see what they have learned.
And that's, that's the way I lovethe courses to go super interactive,
uh, super engaged from the students.
And I, I try, unfortunately, sometimesyou have to present big concepts.
So I have to be the one speaking,but just, you know, let them go.
And, you know, just, I'm justpresenting frameworks as a professor
(05:32):
say, Hey, have you thought aboutdoing this, that perspective?
That to me is my, mytrue job as an educator.
You see, I think that's a very importantpoint because many of us, myself included
have a tendency to speak too much andyes, over time, I think I have learned
how to turn that off or turn it downand to focus more on the listening part.
(05:55):
And I think that's, that's a, that'san important element of wisdom
that indeed you learn over time.
It may be more difficult for peopleearlier in their career to say,
you know what, I'm just gonna.
Listen and find out, but it's animportant tool if they can apply it.
And I'm not saying I'mthe best at it either.
(06:16):
I'm just saying, I'm just saying, that'swhat I, you asked me for my lessons.
Like I'm still working, you know,sometimes I finish a lecture, whatever
I'm like, well, that was not good.
I mean, basically you talked the wholetime, so that's, that's still something
that this is my self-awareness.
I have to keep up actually.
No, I like it.
(06:36):
I like it.
I haven't other days it'sjust totally escapes me.
Well, and obviously we're gonna listento your 10 lessons, so, oh yeah, yeah.
Please speak up.
let's start with lesson.
Number one, learn something new every day.
Even if it's a new word.
Literally every day?
Oh yeah, yeah.
(06:56):
Yeah.
Every day I loved like the other day.
I love to find new words.
I, I don't know the words.
Like I listen to a French podcast, likeevery day, but there was a word in French.
I have, I had no ideawhere the origin was from.
And it was just like, and sometimesbecause English is not my first
language, so sometimes I will hear aword in English and I will just like,
(07:18):
I have never, never heard of that word.
I mean, where does it come from?
And to me, that's, that'slanguage is absolutely amazing.
Um, so to me, the linguistic part ofit, but it's also, I love cooking, so I
learn every day how to cook something.
I'm a, I love pastry.
So I just make cakes and stuff.
You know, one time I wantedto know how to make sausage.
So with a friend, we made sausagefor like three weekends in a row.
(07:41):
And just, I like to be able tolearn something new, like, listen to
podcasts I've never heard of before,but I tried to learn an instrument.
It was not a good experience.
, you know, say, I could say this is not,this is not, this is not in my cards.
You know, you realize sometimesyou learn and you realize,
eh, no, do something else.
But I think it's important for all of us.
(08:01):
And in that sense to have a, an open mind,but also to have somewhat of a focus,
to force yourself, to continue to learn.
Right.
That's, that's part of what you're saying.
Yeah, absolutely.
Like for example, at the school,I mean, where I am right now,
my professional environment,we, there has been major shifts.
One of the area of that the school isreally big on is on the space industry.
(08:23):
I don't know anythingabout the space industry.
So right now I'm working on like, whatcan I, it's absolutely fascinating,
absolutely fascinating field.
But I'm learning, I'm trying to learnsomething every day about the space
industry that I didn't know before.
So it's a concept of keep learning.
I like it.
yeah, it's inspiring, right.
to, uh, keep looking for new things andtry new things, et cetera, et cetera.
(08:44):
Yeah.
Yeah.
We, we tend to get stuck sometimes in,in doing the same thing over and over.
Oh yeah.
Because usually we getrewarded for doing that.
I mean, professionally, if you dosomething very well, then you're like,
that's it I don't have to, to stretchmyself, but to me, it's in the stretching
and learning something new that youget new learning, you get new options.
You, you get new perspectives, so yeah.
(09:06):
Yeah.
You know, that's, that's the part.
Lesson number two, uh, is somethingthat you don't want to do.
Never stay angry.
Anger will eat you alive.
No, that's something ever.
I was a very, I was always veryangry when I was growing up.
And I just learned that at some pointyou have, you have to let it go, you
(09:26):
know, it's just like, and it's angry.
Yeah.
It's being angry.
I mean, you know, I was 17 and I had ableeding ulcer just because I was just
mad at people and mad at everything andbe able to control that and focus that.
And so I've all I told myself,you know, at some point it's
like, I have to let it go.
You know, it's just, there'no need for doing that.
I mean, that anger is notgoing to be serving you.
(09:49):
Well, it's not servingpeople are around you.
anway And, you know, you needto, it goes to, you know, it's
just like, yeah, just let it go.
the anger is like the physical anger.
I mean, I used to play squash,a lot when I was growing up.
I, I don't, I couldn't tell youhow many brackets I broke playing.
I used to have to play with atooth protect, you know, teeth
protection, because, and withthat was, that was my fuel.
(10:13):
And then one time it was justlike, no, you have to quit done.
And it was so much better,but it's, it is the physical.
And it's also the mental aspectof not being angry, letting it go.
Yeah.
Well, in a way, two questions, butthe first one, was there a moment
that you decided to do it differently?
And, and the other point there is somuch going on around the world that
(10:35):
angers people mm-hmm and in some cases,When a war is going on, mm-hmm, the
devastation when, when other thingsare happen and you see it, of course,
in politics, mm-hmm, the anger.
Is that something that you wouldsay, ah, don't worry about it, or
how do you express your thoughtswhen you are in disagreement?
(10:57):
So, you know, I, I read and I do notremember a sociologist that basically
they did research a lot on Facebookand networks and friends and all that.
And you realize that in your life,I mean, the, the maximum amount of
people you can talk to, like reallyhave conversations with 50 people.
And so, you know, most of us, ifwe say we have like 10 friends, like
(11:19):
close friends, that's, that's huge.
I mean, people, you can callthat 10 friends is amazing.
Yeah.
So to me, the anger is just like,There's a lot of stuff going on.
I don't like, but do Ihave control over it?
It's like, no.
So I try to help people who are closeto me and close to people I know, or
locally, that's just like, you know, itangers me to see what's going on in the
(11:41):
US angers me what's happening in Ukraine.
It angers me to see what's happeningin lot of countries, but I don't
feel that I can have an impactunless, you know, yes, you can vote.
You can give money, you canmake donations, but there's
like reading the newspaper.
I mean, I used to readnewspapers all the time.
I stopped doing it.
Just like it.
It puts your mind inthe morning at such a.
(12:02):
It's just like not good.
Yeah.
And I, it just can't deal with it.
I think we, we could use people inleadership with that attitude, right?
Yeah.
well, yeah, hopefully yes.
You know, but you know, anger fuelspeople, although that's the thing.
And, you know, you ask me, is thereat times, just to me, it's just
like, I realize it's exhausting.
(12:23):
It is absolutely exhaustingto be angry all the time.
it's, you know, it eats you alive?
I mean, it does.
And to me, it's just like,you have to find another way.
I mean, I don't want to spend 50years in my 10 lessons, you know,
having a list of people I'm angry,you know, I just, I, I want to do
something else with my life know,
No, I hear what you're saying.
(12:43):
And it kind of, feeds intoyour lesson number three.
Yeah.
Stress is like start where you are,use what you have, do what you can.
And, and this is one of my favoritequotes from Arthur Ash, yeah.
And it was interesting because tome, I mean, if you look at why we get
stressed, sometimes it's because Ithink there's sometimes a disconnect
(13:05):
between understanding kind of, weknow where we're studying, but.
We forget to use what we have.
I mean, we are nevergonna have everything.
We are never gonna have everybody we wantto, and you just do what you can just put
one foot forward and just make it happen.
And managing stress.
I mean, it goes back to my second,uh, lessons because it's a different,
(13:27):
I mean, I'm not angry anymore.
but I, I still work on managing the stressbecause stress will, and sometimes it's
just like being able to stop and doing it.
I mean, I, I gave myself a gift, when Iturned 50 and I, got my training in, uh,
transcendental meditation and it was justthe most amazing, like within two weeks it
(13:51):
was like, I, I don't know how to explain,because I've done yoga in the past.
I've done a lot, but doing that meditationreally was just this amazing level.
I mean, I don't know your brain,just, just like you manage
your stress very differently.
And sometimes I forget to do my meditationbecause I get busy, but when I have
(14:11):
time just sitting quietly for like 20minutes, even once a day, just really
allows you to manage your stress.
I mean, so that's one of my lessons and,you know, it's just like being able to
really manage that is, is very important.
And they, they under, they, theyhave done research on, on meditation,
managing stress in school systemwhere, you know, we are all buzzing.
(14:34):
We're all buzzing all the time.
And I think the technologyis, has added to that.
I mean, I'm not on Facebook anymore.
My Facebook got hacked and atfirst like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Now I'm like, oh, okay, good.
That's good.
You know, I know it's just like onething I don't have to worry about.
So, you know, the only thingI'm on is LinkedIn, that's it.
There is life without Facebook.
So, but yeah, managing stress is critical.
(14:56):
Lesson number four Denis, is onethat, I like a lot, and it depends
again on the context, but I'm thinkingof you, of course, as professor in
cross cultural communications andglobal negotiation, lesson number
four, don't judge people too fast.
We have more in commonthan we are different.
No, no, it's, to me it's so important inthe cross cultural field I'm in, because
(15:20):
we really quickly turn the judgment wheelbecause we spin all the time because
we are always like, you know, trying tooutsmart people, show off how we're smart
and, yeah, sometimes just like, you know,just let's turn off that judgment, you
know, screen, but it's very hard and, youknow, unfortunately the US for what has
(15:44):
happened for the last few years, it's veryhard to not do it, but it's like we have
more in common and then we're different.
And I have, I have experienced thattraveling around the world of finding
myself in weird situation where I'm justlike, eh, I don't know how to do it.
And people's like, well,do you need some help?
And I'm like, oh, okay.
You know, it's just like, it's,that's the part to me that.
I find interesting.
And when you start to reallytalk to people, you realize, oh
(16:06):
yeah, we have more in common.
I mean, you know, it's just like,yeah, language is a barrier,
you know, language is a barrier.
But, um, I learned something, one of mystudents one time showed me because he, he
said, I've, I've never learned a language.
He, so he only spoke, no,he spoke two, two languages.
He said, I speak English in Spanish.
That's all he said, butI've gone around the world.
I said, how do you do it?
(16:26):
He say, but he had a gift andthe gift was to be able to draw.
And so his travel books werejust drawings everywhere.
And he said, it's just amazing to showpeople that we have way more in common
about drawing and art and all that stuff.
So I, and again, it's a lesson.
I hope I'm good, but it's likenot to go to the judgment value.
(16:50):
It's like I said, this is one of myfavorite topics, having lived and worked
in different countries, as of course,you know, I'm thinking of Edward T.
Hall, 1976.
Yeah, the iceberg theory.
Yeah.
If you think of an iceberg where thetip sticks out from the water, but the
most, the biggest part is below thesea line, the water line and at the
(17:13):
bottom of the iceberg, values and alittle bit above the values, beliefs,
belief systems, mm-hmm and above thewaterline visible are the behaviors.
And I think we both know how quickpeople are to put labels on behavior,
(17:34):
cultural differences, and typically theycan be negative because it's different
than our culture, whatever our culture.
It's different.
Oh, absolutely.
And you know, to me, it happens every timeI go back to France because I've been in
the us now for 30 years, I'm American.
So going back to France,I speak the language.
I, well, I don't know if Ilook like people anymore, but
(17:56):
you know, you see what I mean?
It's like, I, I fit because you know,the first couple of days I speak French
and that, oh, you have a weird accent.
And then a couple of days then it's itkind of my accent relaxes and I'm not
looking for my words all the time, butI remember like being very frustrated
at first, going back to my nativecountry and judging what people were
doing and how they were doing, youknow, like the fact that in France,
(18:19):
you have, you have lunch at noon.
You don't have lunch at twoo'clock in the afternoon.
you know, you just,you, it doesn't happen.
You know, you havedinner at eight o'clock.
Uh, there's a pace of life.
And it always, I remember like going backto France and judging, you know, like,
why am the stores not open on Sundays?
And it was just like, and yourealize, you know, you are
(18:40):
missing, you are losing money.
And then you're like, huh.
Yeah, no, it's actually good thatthe stores are not open on Sundays.
You know, it's just like, but it'sjust judge, even from my home, you
know, birth country, basically, Ijudged what was going on very quickly.
And I've learned to just like,turn it off, like very quickly,
but it's human nature.
I think it's absolutely it's fair.
(19:01):
Right.
And I think that's something we haveto, uh, expect from human beings.
Oh, absolutely.
All of us.
Yeah.
To compare.
Situations, like you said lunch.
Uh, when I lived in south America,restaurants would not open until 9:00
PM in the evening, so no, exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I couldn't change the countryeven though I was hungry.
(19:23):
Yeah, no, exactly.
Just it's really the partit's, it's really the part
to me of that, that judgment.
And then you can just look aroundand not judge your neighbors.
I mean, just, and again, but it's hard.
It again, to me, it's all about to me,this, I, I love that exercise of doing
the lessons because to me it's a, it'salmost an exercise of self-awareness.
I mean, how, how self-awareare you of sometimes the
(19:47):
blinders you put on yourself or.
You believe, you know how to do things.
So I, I truly enjoy just going throughthese 10 lessons because I was like,
man, I don't know if I remember I toldyou, I don't know if I have 10 lessons
and then after one it's like, no,that's a very interesting exercise.
So
yeah, no, this, this is bythe way, this is something we
hear from many of our guests.
(20:09):
They enjoy the exercise tocome up with the 10 lessons.
And, I, I, I wanna on this particulartopic, because again, it intrigues me
so much, as well in the academic sphere,when we talk about high context versus
low context cultures, and, and perhapsyou can give a, a quick overview of
the difference between what is highcontext, what is low context when it
(20:32):
comes to cultures and countries, etc.
It's a good point.
I mean like the high context countriesare, and it's linguistic also, like
for example, in the countries, like inAsia, like Japan and Korea, they middle
east are very high context, which isthe context where the communication
is taking place is very important.
Everything is happening in contextual.
Low context are usually the NorthernEuropean countries are much more
(20:55):
low context, which is like all theinformation are given in the language
they are given like very clearly stated.
And it's a, the language is structurewhere you have very quickly a verb,
you know, a subject verb compliments.
It's a very clear sentences.
And, you know, to give you an idea ofdifference between high context and low
context, um, high context, you know,in Japan, if you ask somebody Japanese,
(21:19):
I remember when we had a Japaneseguest who stayed with us and you ask
his opinion and always his expressionwas known like, yes, very difficult.
And you realize he has givenyou all the information.
That's the high contextcommunication, a low context I
could ask to Dutch or French person.
What do you think?
I would say what I think is like,it's stupid and I will tell you
(21:40):
how it should be done, you know.
You are so right.
Yeah.
That's the low contextway of communicating.
And so that's the big difference.
And so the not judging peopleand it goes to a lot of things
like, you know, high context, lowcontext, but extrovert introvert.
I mean, that's when I talk about notjudging people too fast is, is also
the, the ability of, uh, not alwaysjudging people who are extrovert as
(22:05):
being the people who know best I've seena lot of people who are very introvert.
And, but when you start talkingto them, you realize, whoa,
you are paying attention, oryou are really super engaged.
It's like, it's not the engagementthat you have in classrooms.
That's why I love being an educatorbecause you can look at the students
who are, raise their hands, whoparticipate all the time, but
you always have quiet students.
(22:26):
And when they come to your office, youhave conversation with them and you're
like, wow, that is so interesting.
I'm so glad you came and talked to mebecause absolutely changed my perception
of who you are and how you engaged.
So I try to have the students coming tomy office hours, like all the students,
at least for 10, 15 minutes, just soI can change my perception of who they
are in class and kind of like, becausethey, they have so much talent and
(22:49):
they have so much knowledge that aclassroom is not it's, it's a way of
judging students by grades or whatever.
So, you know, it's adifferent way of doing it.
So it it's such an important issue.
And, I think you and Ican fill a complete hour.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
On that part, because it's, it'spart of who we are as human beings.
Yeah.
That we make those judgements, but wehave to become aware and do a better
(23:13):
understanding in order to reallyunderstand what is happening and not to
be so quickly in making a, a judgment.
Lesson number five.
Yeah.
It, it's almost Dutch, low context travel,
absolutely.
Travel.
Travel.
because to me, it's just like, youdon't know who you are until you have
started to cross your own borders.
(23:35):
I mean, you know, like, if you takethe example, of like, you know,
Netherlands or France or the US, youcan travel in the US, but you are still,
there's still a, a certain underlyingvalue and culture that unless you
cross the borders, then you realize.
Oh, that's who it meansto be me basically.
And that to me is the part of travel.
It's not it's yes, the food, butit's also the, the ability of trying.
(23:58):
I love airports.
I, I know it sounds like a totallylike weird things, but I love airports
because especially big internationalairports, because you realize there
are these weird space where you havepeople coming from all over the world.
People are very high level ofstress because it's to them.
They don't see the airportas being the journey.
They are like, it'sunfortunate I'm stuck here.
(24:19):
And so you have a lot of stress.
You have behaviors that youmight not see otherwise.
You have places where you can pray.
You have people under amazing distress,and then you have people who traveled
a lot .And they'd look at an airportand I remember talking to a friend of
mine one time and we were talking aboutHeathrow airport and I was going through
Heathrow so much that I was able toleave my seat on the airplane and be
(24:43):
in the lounge in less than 20 minutes.
And we talk, we talk about like howstupid of a record is that , you know,
it's just like, you know, because yeah.
I, the, you know, you see what I mean?
It's just like, and then it is justlike, yeah, but it's like, is that really
something you should be proud of thatbecause to me, the airport was just like
just a one stop going somewhere else.
(25:03):
And so I've learned like I was in Oman.
I have never been to Oman so I walkthe airport like two or three times
just to see people just because it'sjust like to see where people are
from, you know, the stress level.
And to me, that's the part of travelingand the destination, of course, but you
know, just like the airport, I alwayspay attention to the airport because
it's not only the business lounge.
(25:23):
There's something sometimesthat is interesting in there.
I've never heard anyone talk withsuch, passion about being at an
airport, but I understand what you,
I know, that's why I'm saying, youknow, no, I, you know, I I'm talking
about big international airports.
I'm sorry.
Let me clarify that.
You know,
I, no, I understand and I, Iunderstand the reason why I, I
(25:44):
had never really thought aboutit, myself, that, indeed, when you
were at the airport and let's say.
We see that a lot when you'restuck at the airport, right.
With long delays and lots of people.
But to your point, if you're dealingwith a, with an international
airport, you get people from allover the world in a very small place.
(26:07):
And yes, they're dealing with stress.
Traveling can be stressful,but, you make a great point.
And of course, the other elementof travel is experiencing behavior
and situations, that are differentfrom what you are used to.
And, you know, and to me,this is to me, airports.
And to me, I'm sorry to go backto the airport issue, but it's the
(26:29):
first and the last thing peoplewill see from your home country.
And I remember getting into, I realizedI had to turn off my, like I had to shut
up because I was at the Chicago airport.
And the TSA agent was yellingat people to move lane.
And I look at her, it's likeyelling is not going to be helpful.
She obviously does not understand youand yelling is not going to be helpful.
(26:54):
And I say, and I look at the person anddo you realize this is the last thing
that that person is gonna rememberto be yelled at by a TSA agent?
Yeah.
She might have had the best time.
And then her negative is that part here.
I said, just, you know, justcome on, recognize that she
can't, she's not understanding.
And, but I love also, I mean, youknow, outside, when you're on the
(27:16):
airport, I love everything abouttraveling in a foreign country.
But to me, just like that experienceshould not be over overstated cause
I've seen so many things happen.
Oh, absolutely.
And, it's something that's you know, Iknow from experience has been happening
for a long time that if someone needsto communicate with someone who doesn't
speak the language fluently, whicheverlanguage, but let's say English,
(27:39):
sometimes people start talking louder.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
To the point where they start yelling.
And of course, if you don't understandthe language, it doesn't help.
doesn't at all.
It's not useful at all.
Travel is, to me is just like, yeah, itit'll teach you so much about who you are.
It will show you too somuch about the stress.
(28:02):
, yeah.
And I've been very lucky.
I mean, I've traveled professionallyfor Thunderbird for like 18 years.
So they send me all over the worldand I've gone to Russia many times.
I've got to Saudi Arabia many times.
I've gone to places that Portugal,Hong Kong, Singapore, Brazil, I mean,
I've gone to some neat places and youalways learn Mexico of course, but in
Canada, but you know, it's just likeyou, you learn so much about like,
(28:25):
How to deal with other people and.
And, and in combination withyour, your earlier lesson,
you continue to learn, right?
It's hard to say I've beenaround the world for now.
I know it.
Yeah.
There's, there's, there'sno way you can learn at all.
No, like, like, for example, like,you know, I was just in Saudi Arabia
and I, even though I have, you know,I consider myself a seasoned traveler.
I got, you know, there's two types of cabsin Saudi Arabia and I took the wrong cab.
(28:48):
So it was like, oh, but Ishould have paid attention.
What happened?
When you go outside the airport in,um, in Riyad you have the state owned
cabs that have a fixed price, andthen you have, it's not even Uber.
It's just like people with theircars and they have a sign on top.
It says taxi.
And they say, where do you want to go?
And then they charge you, whatever.
They, they charge you a little bit more.
(29:09):
Yeah.
And that's, that's what happened to me.
I'm.
Okay.
What's the exchange rate andit's like, oh, it's 30 bucks.
Okay, fine.
I can give him 30 bucks, but hewas, you know, these kind of things
like not paying attention, youknow, was, but I was exhausted.
I mean, after all the travel, but, but I,you know, I've had also great experiences.
Sounds good.
We're talking today with Dennis Leclerc,professor of cross-cultural communications
(29:31):
at the Thunderbird school of globalmanagement sharing his 10 lessons he
learned in his life, in his career.
Lesson number six, success is ajourney, not the final destination
while we're talking about traveling.
And, now we're talking about successis a journey, not a final destination.
I realized that when Iwas trying to do my PhD.
(29:52):
Because people were trying tocrank their PhD in four years.
I mean, it was kind of like, and tome, I'm like, I am not in a hurry.
So I took courses that were notbeing part of my PhD program.
I was very slow.
Not that I'm a slow learner, butI realized I really love to learn.
So to me it was just like, well,there is a chance for me to kind
of like that journey is way moreinteresting cuz that's where you
(30:13):
learn who you are and what you do.
And so then when I got my PhD, Itried to go for tenure, which I
hated every day of the whole process.
every day, because I didnot enjoy the journey.
I thought the journey was painful.
Um, nothing was interesting about thewhole journey, but I think sometimes in
(30:34):
life we, we think that the destinationis, is what matters, but actually, no,
it's the journey I've been, you know what?
I hate to use sports analogy.
It's like I've run marathon in my life.
I mean, I'm in really bad shape.
I couldn't do it now, but.
You know, the realize that the, themarathon is a great, is a great, um,
(30:56):
mind trick and mind trip, becausethe first, if you, if anybody, any of
your listeners have ever run marathon,you will see that very quickly.
You realize this last sevenmiles are the most important one.
The first, the first 20 are justlike easy compared to the last six,
because your mind start to trick you.
(31:17):
And that's where the journeyreally starts in marathon.
That's where you are just questioning.
You know, if you can do it, if youare going to be able to finish, if
you are collapsing, your, your body'sgonna tell you, you can't finish.
You can't run.
And that to me.
And then when you, you are at the finaldestination, you're like, oh, wow, that
was, I really enjoyed the last six.
It was really tough, but that yourealize that is a closure, but what was
(31:38):
important is like all the 26 months yourun before, that were very interesting.
So that, and I tried toremind me of that because.
I have a business, we had a businessthat we are just closing right now.
And the success was thejourney of having the business.
And so I'm writing a book onentrepreneurial journey because
that's really what matters.
(31:58):
It's the destination is like, yeah.
You know, it's interesting.
But if you plan everything, youknow, destination is not surprising.
How would you define yourgreatest success in life?
That can be a very tough questionor at least tough one to answer.
Huh?
Um, I think finishing my PhD cuz I didin a foreign language and it just, and
(32:22):
in French and I'm not a great writerand being able to do it was to me.
Yeah, that was pretty amazing.
And I, I have a PHD in a foreignlanguage and, you know, for some people
it's just like, not a big deal to me.
It's like, that's pretty,pretty amazing, you know?
Cause if you, you know, if I couldsee my French teacher in high school
(32:43):
told me I could not write any wordscorrectly and, you know, showing
her I could publish in English.
I think that to me would be agreat success professionally.
yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And I, mean, I, I asked out of nowhere, ofcourse, and I realize that's, it's a tough
question to answer, but I appreciateyour answer because it, it has to do with
something that happened a few years ago.
(33:03):
Yeah.
Right.
It, it, you said, getting aPhD is remarkable in itself.
Yeah.
But to be successful with a PhD ina foreign country that adds to it.
Yeah.
It just sometimes, you know,it's something I kind of.
Because I'm the only one in myfamily who has a higher education,
I mean, I take that for granted.
(33:24):
Yeah.
And you realize, oh man, no, no, no.
They look at me different andto me, and just like, no, you
know, it's just like, so yeah.
I would say professional, I wouldsay that's, you know, but then
when you're surrounded by the PhDs,then people start say, well, how
many publications do you have?
it's like, where have you?
But to me, that part here is like,yeah, no, it was really good.
I mean, I'm very proud of that.
Yeah.
(33:44):
And I, think it, makes sense in that,in that sense with the, with the
question, because you're still active.
You're still doing all kinds of stuff.
Yeah.
So it's not the end of the destination.
No.
Uh, but it was a moment intime that you look back at and.
Yeah, that was success.
I achieved something at that moment.
I guess if you win, you know, goldmedal for winning the marathon,
(34:07):
that would've been something.
No, it's the same thing, you know, it'sthe achievement you realize what goes to
be able to that, that final destination.
That's the part that was justlike, no, that was pretty.
Yeah.
That's well, that's a, that wasa very good question, actually.
Well, I appreciate it.
It's great to talk.
Yeah, yeah.
That good.
I enjoy our conversationlesson than number seven,
(34:27):
learn to cultivate creativity.
And my mind is a little bit spinningabout that as far as how do you do that?
So this is where.
You know, you go back to likethe, the wounds that you get
when you're in high school.
But I can't, I, I was, I, my high schoolwhere I went to was super competitive.
I mean, they were super,super, super competitive.
I mean, I don't know how to explainthat to people other than when we
(34:49):
got our grades every month, basicallythe director of the school came.
And if you were in the lower five,it just threw your grade cards on the
floor and tell you you're wasting money.
So it was, yeah.
So it was just like, so you, you neverwanted to be the last bottom five where
to pick up your grades from the floor.
And say, you know, you go to yourparents cause they're was, you
are wasting their money basically.
(35:09):
But, so there was not a lot ofcreativity in the school because we are
all like academic and all that stuff.
And I've learned, I love going to museums.
I love like, you know, you put meanywhere like in a museum and I
could be there for four hours and I'mjust, cause I just find the power of
creativity, like music, anybody whohas a studio that is super creative,
(35:30):
uh, could be painters, musicians.
People who cook people who drawanything to me, I just find it
interesting and cultivating creativity.
I'm a pretty good baker.
And I realize I love baking becauseit's a very creative process
for me and it's very Stressless.
I can make my cakes, I can dowhatever, you know, and I make
(35:51):
cakes like at least once or twoevery week, but I don't eat them.
I mean, I, I eat some part of it, butum, like for example, in the garden
right now, we have a big fig tree.
So I'm making a, I made a fig tart.
But that's my second one I've madein a couple of days, but we try
to give them to the neighbors.
So that to me is my creativity.
I've always like welding.
(36:12):
So I try to give myself sometimesfor welding I've welded gates.
I think it's important for peopleto have another outlet and their
jobs, you know, something thathas nothing to do with physical.
So it cannot be like physical activitieseither, but it's just something that
where your brain is totally engrossed.
You are in flow.
Basically.
It's something you aredoing that is not your job.
(36:35):
Like musicians are, are getting flowall the time, where that creativity
is really part of, uh, who they are.
It's like more like something that you do.
you know, even if it's like aproject or something where you have
to use different skills, differentpart of your brains, basically.
You know, you could believe that youhave like two parts of your brain and,
you know, be able to balance these twohere because I think it makes, it makes
(36:56):
either side very much more interesting.
That's why mathematicians areinteresting, but they usually, they
have a be having a creative outlet.
you know, that to me is very importantand if people don't have one, they.
Try something.
. No.
Interesting.
Yeah.
Lesson number eight,help and support others.
Sounds really good.
(37:16):
Where did that lessoncome from in your case?
Because people help me because when Icame to the US, I didn't know anybody.
I had a grant from my sister had givenme money and Americans helped me.
I mean, you know, finding anapartment that part of helping
(37:38):
where you are in a foreign countryand you don't know anything.
I remember my first computer, myadvisor bought the computer for
me and I paid him every month.
He didn't have to do that.
It was not his problem, you know?
And so I think it's likereceiving the help from.
Americans in general and see how generouspeople were that to me, I'm like, you
(38:00):
know, helping, I mean, so helping.
And then giving back, giving back.
Yeah.
Giving back.
I mean, you know, I've been, reallyblessed to be help in my life,
that, you know, I try to helpother people and support them.
And just as much as I can.
I mean, and sometimes it's moneysometimes it's time, whatever it is.
So, but that to me is very importantbecause I know that I would not
(38:21):
have done what I've done in theUS if I had not been helped.
Yeah.
Interesting that, , I can understand ifyou look at how you have been helped,
that you want to give back because youknow how important it is to help people.
It's it's a fairly simple concept, right?
I'm not a very religious person, soit's not linked to any honor religious
(38:43):
belief, but it's just like, some peopleneed some help without, Any, without an
exchange of anything, they just need help.
That's an important element in there.
Yeah.
That there is not like, you know,not having an exchange of anything.
And again, this is kind of theinspiration of helping us support people.
But, sometimes we're good,sometimes we're in bad.
Yeah.
So just like, you know, it'sbeing the ability we have of,
(39:06):
of reminding ourself of that.
And especially for me, it's important.
Yeah.
Makes sense.
Lesson number nine, learn to slowdown and I wish I would say yes,
that's what I do, but please explain
yeah, no, it's just like.
Especially right now where wehave, we have access to like I
(39:26):
am and, and I love technology.
I love WhatsApp.
I love texting.
I mean, I tell my students, ifyou have to talk to me, just
send me a text or WhatsApp.
Don't, don't send me an email.
I'm gonna check my email, but Iread so many email during the day.
And then I'm just gonna be like, oh yes.
Somebody asked me a question two daysago, so I have to create a list for it.
So, but at the same time,that creates, it goes back to
(39:49):
like, it creates a lot stress.
It creates a lot of things where, and you,we can all function at very high level.
But some days it's very goodfor us to learn, to slow down.
like for example, you know,I, I'm what I go to France.
What I love about going toFrance is the, the fact that
we have nine hours difference.
And so my phone is on for my family.
They want to reach out to me, butI will turn off my phone in France
(40:11):
at seven o'clock because to meit's just like, I I'm, I am on
vacation to be able to disconnect.
I'm trying to slow down.
I'm not trying to keep my dailyjob or my daily output or input.
but I'm pretty good.
I, I, I think I'm prettygood at slowing down.
I mean, that's one aspect of COVID.
(40:32):
I mean, it's like, I am very lucky.
We have a great house and I realized,you know, I didn't have to go anywhere.
It was just like weekswithout seeing anybody.
And we had all the food we needed andjust like, oh, that's pretty cool.
You know, I have my dogs, the chickensand the, the yard to take care of and
you're realize, oh, you know, that's,you know, slowing done is a good thing.
Now, if I think of however we describeit, but up and coming professionals,
(40:54):
people with great ambition early in theircareer, would you tell them to slow down?
I, I would tell them to, to payattention to their, their mental, uh,
capacity to absorb what they think ismoving around, like, you know, getting
information because, I like the factthat in, in France or in Europe, people
get their five weeks paid vacation.
(41:15):
They get all that part.
And people looking like costa lot of money, but it's also,
it forces people to slow down.
I mean, forces people to just likedisconnect, uh, from the world.
I mean, uh, Mercedes Benzs.
I learned that from their highlevel executives, their email
system shuts down on weekend.
And the reason why, because they havedone studies that actually we don't
(41:36):
have the capacity to always be on.
So for these young people,yeah, you can try to do it,
but you are going to burn out.
And so be very judicious of basicallyunderstanding that sometimes
you just need to take a break.
And when I need to take a break,I, I need, don't go online
and don't slow down basically.
(41:57):
And how you make decision?
that's something I've learned.
I in terms of learning to slow down.
I, I try to not makedecision like on the spot.
I always say, well, let me think about it.
Because it allows me to slow down andkind of pay attention to what's happening.
There has to be a balance that that's.
Yeah, no, absolutely.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Sometimes, you know, sometimesyou need to move fast, but, I,
(42:18):
I am not sure that moving fastis the, is always the best way.
no, and it's, it's a good point.
I think common sense, tells people thatyou have to take a break from time to
time, even when you're busy and youhave, you know, working under pressure,
you do have to allow yourself because.
It's not gonna work in your favor,if you do not give yourself a break,
(42:39):
yeah.
And like, for example, I'm, , Ilove to take naps cuz you reach a
point where you're, you know, ifyou work really, if you really work
intensely on, on a lot of things, Ilike to take like a 40 minute nap.
Cause some you need to give yourbrain time to just like shut
down for a while and your brain,your, brain's still working.
Cause you, you come backand you actually refreshed.
I mean, but again, I'm, I'm very lucky.
(43:01):
I'm very blessed because I have ajob where I can basically pace myself
during the day, any way I want to.
And I know a lot of the listenersdon't have that luxury, but I, I do.
And I, I try to not forget about it.
well, and perhaps Denis, in,in your case, you're dealing.
Communication in so many differentcountries with different time zones.
So, yeah, it may be whatever in theafternoon where you're at and it's
(43:25):
gonna be morning somewhere else or
yeah, no.
Oh yeah.
And I like, you know, I, and I like,for example, I am the, the king of
falling asleep in the airplanes.
I I've fallen asleep on the airplanesbetween Phoenix and Los Angeles,
like an hour and a half I'm asleep.
I get on the plane, I'm asleep onthe plane and I get up when we land
in Los Angeles and I, and I lookaround and, you know, people are.
(43:47):
You it's just like, yeah, my wife doesn't,she likes to travel with me, but she
finds it so annoying because I get inan airplane and I'm asleep so fast.
I don't know if it's themovement of the end or something.
It just I'm like a baby in the car,you know, I just fall asleep so fast.
So, but then you
arrive at Los Angeles internationalairport and that's the, the center
of the universe as you explain,
(44:08):
right?
Yeah, exactly.
So that's a good combination.
Yeah.
Well, we are at lesson number 10,learn how to become a better mentor.
And I have some thoughts, some questions,but please, go ahead and your thoughts.
So, again, because professionallyI'm an educator at the core.
So when people ask me, what do I do?
I always say I'm an educatorjust happen to have a PhD.
(44:31):
I know a few things, but I'mjust an educator at the core.
and I've learned that.
Being a mentor to peopleis super rewarding, but not
everybody's ready to be a mentor.
And being a mentor requires you to yeah.
To slow down to listen to theperson you're trying to work with.
(44:53):
Yeah.
So it's somebody you are trying tohelp, uh, because you cannot say,
oh, I have the solution for you,cuz then you are not a mentor.
You are just putting your, your, yourframework, your lenses, your way of
looking at the world in a way that,um, is not what the person needs.
So, so I, I hope I do that,correctly at the school.
(45:14):
Um, but yeah, to me, that's uh,and a mentor, you know, I have.
Have an expression is like you meetpeople for reason or season or lifetime,
and sometimes you could just meetsomebody for like, you know, a couple
of weeks and that's it, you're done,you know, um, they needed you for that
one thing and, you know, season couldbe a semester, you know, and a lifetime,
(45:38):
it could be friends you have for life.
So that's the part of, and again,I'm not saying I'm really good at it.
I'm just saying it's one of my lessonsthat, you know, I love to be known as a
mentor, but it's just, you know, sometimesit's that self capacity of self awareness.
Well, as a professor educator teacher, itfits well with, with serving as a mentor.
(46:01):
just curious, do you currentlyhave a mentor yourself?
No, that's a good question, butI've had people have admired.
My, my first.
professor and, when I came tothe us was an amazing mentor.
He I'm sure he didn't,you know, unfortunately he
passed away a few years ago.
He knew he was an amazing mentor becausehe had a way, like, he's the one who
(46:21):
bought my first computer, you know, buthe, he was not from the US, he was from
Ghana and he had, he understood kind ofthe struggle of international student.
And so he had that ability to be a mentor.
Yeah, it was just really amazing,an amazing relationship that we had.
And I could never use his firstname even after I got my PhDs.
Like, no, it's still Dr.
(46:42):
Tase, not Victor.
I mean, I could use his firstname around other people to me.
It's just like, no, that's the part oflike the mentor mentee was just like,
um, yeah, it was a, yeah, it did impactmy, my life, but right now, no I don't.
Denis.
It's, it's great to have thisconversation and talking about your 10
lessons and it makes me think about,are there any lessons that you have
(47:05):
unlearned in your life, in your career?
From the 10 I just gave you?
No, just it could be, but it could bein, in just in life that you thought,
Hmm, I gotta do this differently.
You did touch on that duringyour 10 lessons, but there may
be another one that stands out.
To unlearn, um, I'm not kidding.
(47:26):
That that question is really puzzling. But to me it's like, so it's something
I used to do that I'm not doing anymore.
Exactly, exactly.
And like, you know, I, I don't want touse the word aggressive, but it goes to
that anger issues, like always wantedto be, cuz you know, you, you asked
the question earlier about like earlyin your career and that part, it's a
learn, you have to learn to be likenumber one, number two, number three.
(47:50):
Yeah.
Then that's something you have tounlearn actually as you move up in an
organization because, that was so thatpart maybe is the lesson I had to unlearn.
It's like I had to unlearnto be that competitive.
You know, you talk, talkearlier about the, the mentor.
I remember having a, somebodywatched me teach one time and
he gave me the best lesson ever.
Cuz I was teaching and Iwas like, man, I'm good.
(48:11):
I'm you know, I was thinkingthat I'm really good.
I'm really good.
And at the end he, he came to me, hesaid, um, and somebody, I respected
also cuz he had been doing it.
Well, he, he was one of yourprofessor at Thunderbird actually.
and so basically he talked tome, he said, you know what?
People know you are smart,but it's not about you.
It's about them.
And I'm like, and that was just like, ohit was like such a light bulb because you
(48:34):
realize that's what being a, to me, in myrole as an educator, that's what it is.
It's not about me.
It's about the, the students andthat shift I had to unlearn it.
So that's, it's a lesson that causeyou get a PhD and it's all about PhD
is the most selfish degree people willever get because it's not about you.
(48:55):
You, you are the one who work.
You, you know, it's all the PhDs,the, yeah, it's super selfish as
a degree, but then if you reallywant to educate and engage people,
you have to unlearn the fact.
It's not about you because by thetime you have a PhD, everybody, okay.
You have a stamp of approval that, youknow, something, and then you have to
unlearn being selfish with your knowledgeand be able to listen to people.
(49:16):
So maybe that's a lesson.
I think it's a very, very importantpoint that you're raising.
You were just talking aboutyour biggest success was
obtaining or achieving the PhD.
Yeah.
And what you're sharing now isto say, Hey, it's not about me.
It's about my students.
And that, part was just, but it's.
I remember when he told me that, becauseI was just trying to go through all
(49:39):
the material and it's like, you know,people know you are smart, just shut up
and listen to them and were like, what?
And it was just such a, so, you know, whenI was telling you earlier about you meet
people for reason, a season or lifetime.
That's he, I met him for that reason,you know, and I worked with him for a
couple of months afterwards, but that wasthe reason why he taught me a couple of
(49:59):
things about really being an educator.
And it was just like, andthat lesson was so quick.
It's like, it's not about you.
So about the student, I'm like,oh, oh yeah, of course it is.
But he totally counterintuitive.
It's a great point to end this particularprogram with, thank you so much.
Denis Leclerc, we do it the French way.
Professor.
(50:20):
Thank you for sharing your wisdomswith our global audience in closing.
You've been listening to the internationalpodcast, 10 lessons it took me 50
years to learn sponsored by PDF.
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(50:42):
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Our guest today is Denis Leclerc,Denis Leclerc, professor cross-cultural
communications and global negotiationssharing his global lessons.
It took him 50 years to learn andto our audience, don't forget to
leave as a review or a comment.
(51:03):
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That is podcast.
Number 10, lessons learned.com.
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So you don't miss any future episodes.
And remember, this is a podcastthat makes the world wiser and
wiser podcast by podcast, lesson bylesson merci beaucoup et au revoir.
(51:30):
Thank you, and stay safe.
Thank you au revoir.
Oh yeah.
Because usually we getrewarded for doing that.
I mean, professionally, if you dosomething very well, then you're like,
that's it I don't have to, to stretchmyself, but to me, it's in the stretching
and learning something new that youget new learning, you get new options.
You, you get new perspectives.
Hello and welcome to our program 10lessons it took me 50 years to learn where
(00:24):
we talk to business people, journalists,professors, ambassadors, leaders, and
luminaries from all over the world.
My name is Siebe Van Der Zee.
And I'm your host.
I'm originally from the Netherlandshappily residing in the beautiful
Grand Canyon state of Arizona.
I'm also known as theDutchman in the desert.
I hope you will enjoy our program.
(00:45):
Our guest today isProfessor Denis Leclerc.
Denis Leclerc is Professor ofCross-cultural Communications and Global
Negotiations at the Thunderbird Schoolof Global Management at Arizona State
University, a native of Normandy inFrance, Dennis received his doctorate
in cross-cultural communicationsfrom the Hugh Downs School of Human
(01:06):
Communication at Arizona State University.
At the Thunderbird Schoolof Global Management, Dennis
teaches multiple programs,including an on campus MBA class.
An executive MBA program.
And a customized corporate programfor major companies, such as
Raytheon, Novartis, and Medtronic.
Dennis has been published inleading journals, and he's also
(01:29):
active as a business consultantin north America and in France.
He is a sought after keynote speaker andseminar leader for organizations such
as American Express, the US Chamber ofCommerce, ExxonMobil, and others on topics
like cultural misunderstanding, improvingmulticultural awareness and cultural
(01:50):
strategic negotiation preparation.
That's a mouthful.
You can learn, learn more about ProfessorLeclerc on our website 10 lessons
learned.com Bonjour Denis comment ca va?.
Thank you for joining us
Bonjoir, bonjour.
Ca va tres bein et toi?.
Well, Nous pouvant parler on Francais,
I suggest we don't speak French, but, uh,it's very nice to have you as our guest,
(02:15):
global communicator professor wonderful.
When we talk aboutcross-cultural communications,
what would be the definition?
How would you describe that field?
Because it seems to cover so much.
Hmm.
You know, actually, it'sa very good question.
To my definition of cross culturalcommunication might be difference if
(02:35):
you go and talk to other professors,but it's really our ability using
communication to close the gap, closethe differences we have cause we have way
more in common than we have differences.
So to me, what I try to remind peoplewhen we do cross cultural communications
is actually the ability we have offinding common grounds, common knowledge,
(02:59):
common experiences with other people.
So that would be my definition.
Well, it, it coversliterally a lot of ground.
This is global it's international.
Is it also domestic within countries?
Oh yeah.
Oh absolutely.
I mean, it's also like, you know, ifyou take countries like, uh, you know,
the us, for example, that, you know,you have people from the west coast
(03:22):
are very different from people fromthe east, you know, north and south.
I mean, you always have peoplein the south of France are very
different from the north of France.
People in the south of the Netherlandsare different from the people
in the north of the Netherlands.
I learned that, you know, goingthrough store one times, like.
Really.
And they're like, oh no, no, no.
You're you use an expression that isonly used in the south of the Netherland.
So, you know, there'salways disparity that way.
(03:44):
very true.
Very true.
is there perhaps, uh, a lesson thatyou have learned in your life, in
your international life that youwould like to teach yourself if
you would be 30 years old today
to be more patient, to be, uh, yeah, tobe more patient to observe, to, to not,
(04:07):
to not be the one talking all the time.
I think in, I think in my thirties,I was trying to show off like who
I was and kind of what I knew.
And I think that's, you know, listento people is way more interesting.
There's wisdom in that.
No doubt at the same time, as aprofessor, as a business consultant,
You are asked to communicate andshare your thoughts and wisdom.
(04:30):
not to put you on the spot, but howdo you combine that with listening?
Oh, no, actually I think it's,super important because like, for
example, if you look at, if youlisten to like doing consulting and
businesses, it's all about listening.
I mean, if you coach somebody, it's youlistening to them and, you know, asking
them the right questions, you can getdown to the, what their real issue is.
(04:51):
And if you just come up and say,I'm gonna tell you how to do it.
It's it's not as interesting.
I mean, my teaching, for example, now,if I look at how I start to teach 20
years ago, 25 years ago, compared to howI teach now, my role is to teach is to
be the one who speak the least amountduring my classes, I, I present a concept.
(05:11):
Then I have the students talkingto each other and we come back
and see what they have learned.
And that's, that's the way I lovethe courses to go super interactive,
uh, super engaged from the students.
And I, I try, unfortunately, sometimesyou have to present big concepts.
So I have to be the one speaking,but just, you know, let them go.
And, you know, just, I'm justpresenting frameworks as a professor
(05:32):
say, Hey, have you thought aboutdoing this, that perspective?
That to me is my, mytrue job as an educator.
You see, I think that's a very importantpoint because many of us, myself included
have a tendency to speak too much andyes, over time, I think I have learned
how to turn that off or turn it downand to focus more on the listening part.
(05:55):
And I think that's, that's a, that'san important element of wisdom
that indeed you learn over time.
It may be more difficult for peopleearlier in their career to say,
you know what, I'm just gonna.
Listen and find out, but it's animportant tool if they can apply it.
And I'm not saying I'mthe best at it either.
(06:16):
I'm just saying, I'm just saying, that'swhat I, you asked me for my lessons.
Like I'm still working, you know,sometimes I finish a lecture, whatever
I'm like, well, that was not good.
I mean, basically you talked the wholetime, so that's, that's still something
that this is my self-awareness.
I have to keep up actually.
No, I like it.
(06:36):
I like it.
I haven't other days it'sjust totally escapes me.
Well, and obviously we're gonna listento your 10 lessons, so, oh yeah, yeah.
Please speak up.
let's start with lesson.
Number one, learn something new every day.
Even if it's a new word.
Literally every day?
Oh yeah, yeah.
(06:56):
Yeah.
Every day I loved like the other day.
I love to find new words.
I, I don't know the words.
Like I listen to a French podcast, likeevery day, but there was a word in French.
I have, I had no ideawhere the origin was from.
And it was just like, and sometimesbecause English is not my first
language, so sometimes I will hear aword in English and I will just like,
(07:18):
I have never, never heard of that word.
I mean, where does it come from?
And to me, that's, that'slanguage is absolutely amazing.
Um, so to me, the linguistic part ofit, but it's also, I love cooking, so I
learn every day how to cook something.
I'm a, I love pastry.
So I just make cakes and stuff.
You know, one time I wantedto know how to make sausage.
So with a friend, we made sausagefor like three weekends in a row.
(07:41):
And just, I like to be able tolearn something new, like, listen to
podcasts I've never heard of before,but I tried to learn an instrument.
It was not a good experience.
, you know, say, I could say this is not,this is not, this is not in my cards.
You know, you realize sometimesyou learn and you realize,
eh, no, do something else.
But I think it's important for all of us.
(08:01):
And in that sense to have a, an open mind,but also to have somewhat of a focus,
to force yourself, to continue to learn.
Right.
That's, that's part of what you're saying.
Yeah, absolutely.
Like for example, at the school,I mean, where I am right now,
my professional environment,we, there has been major shifts.
One of the area of that the school isreally big on is on the space industry.
(08:23):
I don't know anythingabout the space industry.
So right now I'm working on like, whatcan I, it's absolutely fascinating,
absolutely fascinating field.
But I'm learning, I'm trying to learnsomething every day about the space
industry that I didn't know before.
So it's a concept of keep learning.
I like it.
yeah, it's inspiring, right.
to, uh, keep looking for new things andtry new things, et cetera, et cetera.
(08:44):
Yeah.
Yeah.
We, we tend to get stuck sometimes in,in doing the same thing over and over.
Oh yeah.
Because usually we getrewarded for doing that.
I mean, professionally, if you dosomething very well, then you're like,
that's it I don't have to, to stretchmyself, but to me, it's in the stretching
and learning something new that youget new learning, you get new options.
You, you get new perspectives, so yeah.
(09:06):
Yeah.
You know, that's, that's the part.
Lesson number two, uh, is somethingthat you don't want to do.
Never stay angry.
Anger will eat you alive.
No, that's something ever.
I was a very, I was always veryangry when I was growing up.
And I just learned that at some pointyou have, you have to let it go, you
(09:26):
know, it's just like, and it's angry.
Yeah.
It's being angry.
I mean, you know, I was 17 and I had ableeding ulcer just because I was just
mad at people and mad at everything andbe able to control that and focus that.
And so I've all I told myself,you know, at some point it's
like, I have to let it go.
You know, it's just, there'no need for doing that.
I mean, that anger is notgoing to be serving you.
(09:49):
Well, it's not servingpeople are around you.
anway And, you know, you needto, it goes to, you know, it's
just like, yeah, just let it go.
the anger is like the physical anger.
I mean, I used to play squash,a lot when I was growing up.
I, I don't, I couldn't tell youhow many brackets I broke playing.
I used to have to play with atooth protect, you know, teeth
protection, because, and withthat was, that was my fuel.
(10:13):
And then one time it was justlike, no, you have to quit done.
And it was so much better,but it's, it is the physical.
And it's also the mental aspectof not being angry, letting it go.
Yeah.
Well, in a way, two questions, butthe first one, was there a moment
that you decided to do it differently?
And, and the other point there is somuch going on around the world that
(10:35):
angers people mm-hmm and in some cases,When a war is going on, mm-hmm, the
devastation when, when other thingsare happen and you see it, of course,
in politics, mm-hmm, the anger.
Is that something that you wouldsay, ah, don't worry about it, or
how do you express your thoughtswhen you are in disagreement?
(10:57):
So, you know, I, I read and I do notremember a sociologist that basically
they did research a lot on Facebookand networks and friends and all that.
And you realize that in your life,I mean, the, the maximum amount of
people you can talk to, like reallyhave conversations with 50 people.
And so, you know, most of us, ifwe say we have like 10 friends, like
(11:19):
close friends, that's, that's huge.
I mean, people, you can callthat 10 friends is amazing.
Yeah.
So to me, the anger is just like,There's a lot of stuff going on.
I don't like, but do Ihave control over it?
It's like, no.
So I try to help people who are closeto me and close to people I know, or
locally, that's just like, you know, itangers me to see what's going on in the
(11:41):
US angers me what's happening in Ukraine.
It angers me to see what's happeningin lot of countries, but I don't
feel that I can have an impactunless, you know, yes, you can vote.
You can give money, you canmake donations, but there's
like reading the newspaper.
I mean, I used to readnewspapers all the time.
I stopped doing it.
Just like it.
It puts your mind inthe morning at such a.
(12:02):
It's just like not good.
Yeah.
And I, it just can't deal with it.
I think we, we could use people inleadership with that attitude, right?
Yeah.
well, yeah, hopefully yes.
You know, but you know, anger fuelspeople, although that's the thing.
And, you know, you ask me, is thereat times, just to me, it's just
like, I realize it's exhausting.
(12:23):
It is absolutely exhaustingto be angry all the time.
it's, you know, it eats you alive?
I mean, it does.
And to me, it's just like,you have to find another way.
I mean, I don't want to spend 50years in my 10 lessons, you know,
having a list of people I'm angry,you know, I just, I, I want to do
something else with my life know,
No, I hear what you're saying.
(12:43):
And it kind of, feeds intoyour lesson number three.
Yeah.
Stress is like start where you are,use what you have, do what you can.
And, and this is one of my favoritequotes from Arthur Ash, yeah.
And it was interesting because tome, I mean, if you look at why we get
stressed, sometimes it's because Ithink there's sometimes a disconnect
(13:05):
between understanding kind of, weknow where we're studying, but.
We forget to use what we have.
I mean, we are nevergonna have everything.
We are never gonna have everybody we wantto, and you just do what you can just put
one foot forward and just make it happen.
And managing stress.
I mean, it goes back to my second,uh, lessons because it's a different,
(13:27):
I mean, I'm not angry anymore.
but I, I still work on managing the stressbecause stress will, and sometimes it's
just like being able to stop and doing it.
I mean, I, I gave myself a gift, when Iturned 50 and I, got my training in, uh,
transcendental meditation and it was justthe most amazing, like within two weeks it
(13:51):
was like, I, I don't know how to explain,because I've done yoga in the past.
I've done a lot, but doing that meditationreally was just this amazing level.
I mean, I don't know your brain,just, just like you manage
your stress very differently.
And sometimes I forget to do my meditationbecause I get busy, but when I have
(14:11):
time just sitting quietly for like 20minutes, even once a day, just really
allows you to manage your stress.
I mean, so that's one of my lessons and,you know, it's just like being able to
really manage that is, is very important.
And they, they under, they, theyhave done research on, on meditation,
managing stress in school systemwhere, you know, we are all buzzing.
(14:34):
We're all buzzing all the time.
And I think the technologyis, has added to that.
I mean, I'm not on Facebook anymore.
My Facebook got hacked and atfirst like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Now I'm like, oh, okay, good.
That's good.
You know, I know it's just like onething I don't have to worry about.
So, you know, the only thingI'm on is LinkedIn, that's it.
There is life without Facebook.
So, but yeah, managing stress is critical.
(14:56):
Lesson number four Denis, is onethat, I like a lot, and it depends
again on the context, but I'm thinkingof you, of course, as professor in
cross cultural communications andglobal negotiation, lesson number
four, don't judge people too fast.
We have more in commonthan we are different.
No, no, it's, to me it's so important inthe cross cultural field I'm in, because
(15:20):
we really quickly turn the judgment wheelbecause we spin all the time because
we are always like, you know, trying tooutsmart people, show off how we're smart
and, yeah, sometimes just like, you know,just let's turn off that judgment, you
know, screen, but it's very hard and, youknow, unfortunately the US for what has
(15:44):
happened for the last few years, it's veryhard to not do it, but it's like we have
more in common and then we're different.
And I have, I have experienced thattraveling around the world of finding
myself in weird situation where I'm justlike, eh, I don't know how to do it.
And people's like, well,do you need some help?
And I'm like, oh, okay.
You know, it's just like, it's,that's the part to me that.
I find interesting.
And when you start to reallytalk to people, you realize, oh
(16:06):
yeah, we have more in common.
I mean, you know, it's just like,yeah, language is a barrier,
you know, language is a barrier.
But, um, I learned something, one of mystudents one time showed me because he, he
said, I've, I've never learned a language.
He, so he only spoke, no,he spoke two, two languages.
He said, I speak English in Spanish.
That's all he said, butI've gone around the world.
I said, how do you do it?
(16:26):
He say, but he had a gift andthe gift was to be able to draw.
And so his travel books werejust drawings everywhere.
And he said, it's just amazing to showpeople that we have way more in common
about drawing and art and all that stuff.
So I, and again, it's a lesson.
I hope I'm good, but it's likenot to go to the judgment value.
(16:50):
It's like I said, this is one of myfavorite topics, having lived and worked
in different countries, as of course,you know, I'm thinking of Edward T.
Hall, 1976.
Yeah, the iceberg theory.
Yeah.
If you think of an iceberg where thetip sticks out from the water, but the
most, the biggest part is below thesea line, the water line and at the
(17:13):
bottom of the iceberg, values and alittle bit above the values, beliefs,
belief systems, mm-hmm and above thewaterline visible are the behaviors.
And I think we both know how quickpeople are to put labels on behavior,
(17:34):
cultural differences, and typically theycan be negative because it's different
than our culture, whatever our culture.
It's different.
Oh, absolutely.
And you know, to me, it happens every timeI go back to France because I've been in
the us now for 30 years, I'm American.
So going back to France,I speak the language.
I, well, I don't know if Ilook like people anymore, but
(17:56):
you know, you see what I mean?
It's like, I, I fit because you know,the first couple of days I speak French
and that, oh, you have a weird accent.
And then a couple of days then it's itkind of my accent relaxes and I'm not
looking for my words all the time, butI remember like being very frustrated
at first, going back to my nativecountry and judging what people were
doing and how they were doing, youknow, like the fact that in France,
(18:19):
you have, you have lunch at noon.
You don't have lunch at twoo'clock in the afternoon.
you know, you just,you, it doesn't happen.
You know, you havedinner at eight o'clock.
Uh, there's a pace of life.
And it always, I remember like going backto France and judging, you know, like,
why am the stores not open on Sundays?
And it was just like, and yourealize, you know, you are
(18:40):
missing, you are losing money.
And then you're like, huh.
Yeah, no, it's actually good thatthe stores are not open on Sundays.
You know, it's just like, but it'sjust judge, even from my home, you
know, birth country, basically, Ijudged what was going on very quickly.
And I've learned to just like,turn it off, like very quickly,
but it's human nature.
I think it's absolutely it's fair.
(19:01):
Right.
And I think that's something we haveto, uh, expect from human beings.
Oh, absolutely.
All of us.
Yeah.
To compare.
Situations, like you said lunch.
Uh, when I lived in south America,restaurants would not open until 9:00
PM in the evening, so no, exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I couldn't change the countryeven though I was hungry.
(19:23):
Yeah, no, exactly.
Just it's really the partit's, it's really the part
to me of that, that judgment.
And then you can just look aroundand not judge your neighbors.
I mean, just, and again, but it's hard.
It again, to me, it's all about to me,this, I, I love that exercise of doing
the lessons because to me it's a, it'salmost an exercise of self-awareness.
I mean, how, how self-awareare you of sometimes the
(19:47):
blinders you put on yourself or.
You believe, you know how to do things.
So I, I truly enjoy just going throughthese 10 lessons because I was like,
man, I don't know if I remember I toldyou, I don't know if I have 10 lessons
and then after one it's like, no,that's a very interesting exercise.
So
yeah, no, this, this is bythe way, this is something we
hear from many of our guests.
(20:09):
They enjoy the exercise tocome up with the 10 lessons.
And, I, I, I wanna on this particulartopic, because again, it intrigues me
so much, as well in the academic sphere,when we talk about high context versus
low context cultures, and, and perhapsyou can give a, a quick overview of
the difference between what is highcontext, what is low context when it
(20:32):
comes to cultures and countries, etc.
It's a good point.
I mean like the high context countriesare, and it's linguistic also, like
for example, in the countries, like inAsia, like Japan and Korea, they middle
east are very high context, which isthe context where the communication
is taking place is very important.
Everything is happening in contextual.
Low context are usually the NorthernEuropean countries are much more
(20:55):
low context, which is like all theinformation are given in the language
they are given like very clearly stated.
And it's a, the language is structurewhere you have very quickly a verb,
you know, a subject verb compliments.
It's a very clear sentences.
And, you know, to give you an idea ofdifference between high context and low
context, um, high context, you know,in Japan, if you ask somebody Japanese,
(21:19):
I remember when we had a Japaneseguest who stayed with us and you ask
his opinion and always his expressionwas known like, yes, very difficult.
And you realize he has givenyou all the information.
That's the high contextcommunication, a low context I
could ask to Dutch or French person.
What do you think?
I would say what I think is like,it's stupid and I will tell you
(21:40):
how it should be done, you know.
You are so right.
Yeah.
That's the low contextway of communicating.
And so that's the big difference.
And so the not judging peopleand it goes to a lot of things
like, you know, high context, lowcontext, but extrovert introvert.
I mean, that's when I talk about notjudging people too fast is, is also
the, the ability of, uh, not alwaysjudging people who are extrovert as
(22:05):
being the people who know best I've seena lot of people who are very introvert.
And, but when you start talkingto them, you realize, whoa,
you are paying attention, oryou are really super engaged.
It's like, it's not the engagementthat you have in classrooms.
That's why I love being an educatorbecause you can look at the students
who are, raise their hands, whoparticipate all the time, but
you always have quiet students.
(22:26):
And when they come to your office, youhave conversation with them and you're
like, wow, that is so interesting.
I'm so glad you came and talked to mebecause absolutely changed my perception
of who you are and how you engaged.
So I try to have the students coming tomy office hours, like all the students,
at least for 10, 15 minutes, just soI can change my perception of who they
are in class and kind of like, becausethey, they have so much talent and
(22:49):
they have so much knowledge that aclassroom is not it's, it's a way of
judging students by grades or whatever.
So, you know, it's adifferent way of doing it.
So it it's such an important issue.
And, I think you and Ican fill a complete hour.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
On that part, because it's, it'spart of who we are as human beings.
Yeah.
That we make those judgements, but wehave to become aware and do a better
(23:13):
understanding in order to reallyunderstand what is happening and not to
be so quickly in making a, a judgment.
Lesson number five.
Yeah.
It, it's almost Dutch, low context travel,
absolutely.
Travel.
Travel.
because to me, it's just like, youdon't know who you are until you have
started to cross your own borders.
(23:35):
I mean, you know, like, if you takethe example, of like, you know,
Netherlands or France or the US, youcan travel in the US, but you are still,
there's still a, a certain underlyingvalue and culture that unless you
cross the borders, then you realize.
Oh, that's who it meansto be me basically.
And that to me is the part of travel.
It's not it's yes, the food, butit's also the, the ability of trying.
(23:58):
I love airports.
I, I know it sounds like a totallylike weird things, but I love airports
because especially big internationalairports, because you realize there
are these weird space where you havepeople coming from all over the world.
People are very high level ofstress because it's to them.
They don't see the airportas being the journey.
They are like, it'sunfortunate I'm stuck here.
(24:19):
And so you have a lot of stress.
You have behaviors that youmight not see otherwise.
You have places where you can pray.
You have people under amazing distress,and then you have people who traveled
a lot .And they'd look at an airportand I remember talking to a friend of
mine one time and we were talking aboutHeathrow airport and I was going through
Heathrow so much that I was able toleave my seat on the airplane and be
(24:43):
in the lounge in less than 20 minutes.
And we talk, we talk about like howstupid of a record is that , you know,
it's just like, you know, because yeah.
I, the, you know, you see what I mean?
It's just like, and then it is justlike, yeah, but it's like, is that really
something you should be proud of thatbecause to me, the airport was just like
just a one stop going somewhere else.
(25:03):
And so I've learned like I was in Oman.
I have never been to Oman so I walkthe airport like two or three times
just to see people just because it'sjust like to see where people are
from, you know, the stress level.
And to me, that's the part of travelingand the destination, of course, but you
know, just like the airport, I alwayspay attention to the airport because
it's not only the business lounge.
(25:23):
There's something sometimesthat is interesting in there.
I've never heard anyone talk withsuch, passion about being at an
airport, but I understand what you,
I know, that's why I'm saying, youknow, no, I, you know, I I'm talking
about big international airports.
I'm sorry.
Let me clarify that.
You know,
I, no, I understand and I, Iunderstand the reason why I, I
(25:44):
had never really thought aboutit, myself, that, indeed, when you
were at the airport and let's say.
We see that a lot when you'restuck at the airport, right.
With long delays and lots of people.
But to your point, if you're dealingwith a, with an international
airport, you get people from allover the world in a very small place.
(26:07):
And yes, they're dealing with stress.
Traveling can be stressful,but, you make a great point.
And of course, the other elementof travel is experiencing behavior
and situations, that are differentfrom what you are used to.
And, you know, and to me,this is to me, airports.
And to me, I'm sorry to go backto the airport issue, but it's the
(26:29):
first and the last thing peoplewill see from your home country.
And I remember getting into, I realizedI had to turn off my, like I had to shut
up because I was at the Chicago airport.
And the TSA agent was yellingat people to move lane.
And I look at her, it's likeyelling is not going to be helpful.
She obviously does not understand youand yelling is not going to be helpful.
(26:54):
And I say, and I look at the person anddo you realize this is the last thing
that that person is gonna rememberto be yelled at by a TSA agent?
Yeah.
She might have had the best time.
And then her negative is that part here.
I said, just, you know, justcome on, recognize that she
can't, she's not understanding.
And, but I love also, I mean, youknow, outside, when you're on the
(27:16):
airport, I love everything abouttraveling in a foreign country.
But to me, just like that experienceshould not be over overstated cause
I've seen so many things happen.
Oh, absolutely.
And, it's something that's you know, Iknow from experience has been happening
for a long time that if someone needsto communicate with someone who doesn't
speak the language fluently, whicheverlanguage, but let's say English,
(27:39):
sometimes people start talking louder.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
To the point where they start yelling.
And of course, if you don't understandthe language, it doesn't help.
doesn't at all.
It's not useful at all.
Travel is, to me is just like, yeah, itit'll teach you so much about who you are.
It will show you too somuch about the stress.
(28:02):
, yeah.
And I've been very lucky.
I mean, I've traveled professionallyfor Thunderbird for like 18 years.
So they send me all over the worldand I've gone to Russia many times.
I've got to Saudi Arabia many times.
I've gone to places that Portugal,Hong Kong, Singapore, Brazil, I mean,
I've gone to some neat places and youalways learn Mexico of course, but in
Canada, but you know, it's just likeyou, you learn so much about like,
(28:25):
How to deal with other people and.
And, and in combination withyour, your earlier lesson,
you continue to learn, right?
It's hard to say I've beenaround the world for now.
I know it.
Yeah.
There's, there's, there'sno way you can learn at all.
No, like, like, for example, like,you know, I was just in Saudi Arabia
and I, even though I have, you know,I consider myself a seasoned traveler.
I got, you know, there's two types of cabsin Saudi Arabia and I took the wrong cab.
(28:48):
So it was like, oh, but Ishould have paid attention.
What happened?
When you go outside the airport in,um, in Riyad you have the state owned
cabs that have a fixed price, andthen you have, it's not even Uber.
It's just like people with theircars and they have a sign on top.
It says taxi.
And they say, where do you want to go?
And then they charge you, whatever.
They, they charge you a little bit more.
(29:09):
Yeah.
And that's, that's what happened to me.
I'm.
Okay.
What's the exchange rate andit's like, oh, it's 30 bucks.
Okay, fine.
I can give him 30 bucks, but hewas, you know, these kind of things
like not paying attention, youknow, was, but I was exhausted.
I mean, after all the travel, but, but I,you know, I've had also great experiences.
Sounds good.
We're talking today with Dennis Leclerc,professor of cross-cultural communications
(29:31):
at the Thunderbird school of globalmanagement sharing his 10 lessons he
learned in his life, in his career.
Lesson number six, success is ajourney, not the final destination
while we're talking about traveling.
And, now we're talking about successis a journey, not a final destination.
I realized that when Iwas trying to do my PhD.
(29:52):
Because people were trying tocrank their PhD in four years.
I mean, it was kind of like, and tome, I'm like, I am not in a hurry.
So I took courses that were notbeing part of my PhD program.
I was very slow.
Not that I'm a slow learner, butI realized I really love to learn.
So to me it was just like, well,there is a chance for me to kind
of like that journey is way moreinteresting cuz that's where you
(30:13):
learn who you are and what you do.
And so then when I got my PhD, Itried to go for tenure, which I
hated every day of the whole process.
every day, because I didnot enjoy the journey.
I thought the journey was painful.
Um, nothing was interesting about thewhole journey, but I think sometimes in
(30:34):
life we, we think that the destinationis, is what matters, but actually, no,
it's the journey I've been, you know what?
I hate to use sports analogy.
It's like I've run marathon in my life.
I mean, I'm in really bad shape.
I couldn't do it now, but.
You know, the realize that the, themarathon is a great, is a great, um,
(30:56):
mind trick and mind trip, becausethe first, if you, if anybody, any of
your listeners have ever run marathon,you will see that very quickly.
You realize this last sevenmiles are the most important one.
The first, the first 20 are justlike easy compared to the last six,
because your mind start to trick you.
(31:17):
And that's where the journeyreally starts in marathon.
That's where you are just questioning.
You know, if you can do it, if youare going to be able to finish, if
you are collapsing, your, your body'sgonna tell you, you can't finish.
You can't run.
And that to me.
And then when you, you are at the finaldestination, you're like, oh, wow, that
was, I really enjoyed the last six.
It was really tough, but that yourealize that is a closure, but what was
(31:38):
important is like all the 26 months yourun before, that were very interesting.
So that, and I tried toremind me of that because.
I have a business, we had a businessthat we are just closing right now.
And the success was thejourney of having the business.
And so I'm writing a book onentrepreneurial journey because
that's really what matters.
(31:58):
It's the destination is like, yeah.
You know, it's interesting.
But if you plan everything, youknow, destination is not surprising.
How would you define yourgreatest success in life?
That can be a very tough questionor at least tough one to answer.
Huh?
Um, I think finishing my PhD cuz I didin a foreign language and it just, and
(32:22):
in French and I'm not a great writerand being able to do it was to me.
Yeah, that was pretty amazing.
And I, I have a PHD in a foreignlanguage and, you know, for some people
it's just like, not a big deal to me.
It's like, that's pretty,pretty amazing, you know?
Cause if you, you know, if I couldsee my French teacher in high school
(32:43):
told me I could not write any wordscorrectly and, you know, showing
her I could publish in English.
I think that to me would be agreat success professionally.
yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And I, mean, I, I asked out of nowhere, ofcourse, and I realize that's, it's a tough
question to answer, but I appreciateyour answer because it, it has to do with
something that happened a few years ago.
(33:03):
Yeah.
Right.
It, it, you said, getting aPhD is remarkable in itself.
Yeah.
But to be successful with a PhD ina foreign country that adds to it.
Yeah.
It just sometimes, you know,it's something I kind of.
Because I'm the only one in myfamily who has a higher education,
I mean, I take that for granted.
(33:24):
Yeah.
And you realize, oh man, no, no, no.
They look at me different andto me, and just like, no, you
know, it's just like, so yeah.
I would say professional, I wouldsay that's, you know, but then
when you're surrounded by the PhDs,then people start say, well, how
many publications do you have?
it's like, where have you?
But to me, that part here is like,yeah, no, it was really good.
I mean, I'm very proud of that.
Yeah.
(33:44):
And I, think it, makes sense in that,in that sense with the, with the
question, because you're still active.
You're still doing all kinds of stuff.
Yeah.
So it's not the end of the destination.
No.
Uh, but it was a moment intime that you look back at and.
Yeah, that was success.
I achieved something at that moment.
I guess if you win, you know, goldmedal for winning the marathon,
(34:07):
that would've been something.
No, it's the same thing, you know, it'sthe achievement you realize what goes to
be able to that, that final destination.
That's the part that was justlike, no, that was pretty.
Yeah.
That's well, that's a, that wasa very good question, actually.
Well, I appreciate it.
It's great to talk.
Yeah, yeah.
That good.
I enjoy our conversationlesson than number seven,
(34:27):
learn to cultivate creativity.
And my mind is a little bit spinningabout that as far as how do you do that?
So this is where.
You know, you go back to likethe, the wounds that you get
when you're in high school.
But I can't, I, I was, I, my high schoolwhere I went to was super competitive.
I mean, they were super,super, super competitive.
I mean, I don't know how to explainthat to people other than when we
(34:49):
got our grades every month, basicallythe director of the school came.
And if you were in the lower five,it just threw your grade cards on the
floor and tell you you're wasting money.
So it was, yeah.
So it was just like, so you, you neverwanted to be the last bottom five where
to pick up your grades from the floor.
And say, you know, you go to yourparents cause they're was, you
are wasting their money basically.
(35:09):
But, so there was not a lot ofcreativity in the school because we are
all like academic and all that stuff.
And I've learned, I love going to museums.
I love like, you know, you put meanywhere like in a museum and I
could be there for four hours and I'mjust, cause I just find the power of
creativity, like music, anybody whohas a studio that is super creative,
(35:30):
uh, could be painters, musicians.
People who cook people who drawanything to me, I just find it
interesting and cultivating creativity.
I'm a pretty good baker.
And I realize I love baking becauseit's a very creative process
for me and it's very Stressless.
I can make my cakes, I can dowhatever, you know, and I make
(35:51):
cakes like at least once or twoevery week, but I don't eat them.
I mean, I, I eat some part of it, butum, like for example, in the garden
right now, we have a big fig tree.
So I'm making a, I made a fig tart.
But that's my second one I've madein a couple of days, but we try
to give them to the neighbors.
So that to me is my creativity.
I've always like welding.
(36:12):
So I try to give myself sometimesfor welding I've welded gates.
I think it's important for peopleto have another outlet and their
jobs, you know, something thathas nothing to do with physical.
So it cannot be like physical activitieseither, but it's just something that
where your brain is totally engrossed.
You are in flow.
Basically.
It's something you aredoing that is not your job.
(36:35):
Like musicians are, are getting flowall the time, where that creativity
is really part of, uh, who they are.
It's like more like something that you do.
you know, even if it's like aproject or something where you have
to use different skills, differentpart of your brains, basically.
You know, you could believe that youhave like two parts of your brain and,
you know, be able to balance these twohere because I think it makes, it makes
(36:56):
either side very much more interesting.
That's why mathematicians areinteresting, but they usually, they
have a be having a creative outlet.
you know, that to me is very importantand if people don't have one, they.
Try something.
. No.
Interesting.
Yeah.
Lesson number eight,help and support others.
Sounds really good.
(37:16):
Where did that lessoncome from in your case?
Because people help me because when Icame to the US, I didn't know anybody.
I had a grant from my sister had givenme money and Americans helped me.
I mean, you know, finding anapartment that part of helping
(37:38):
where you are in a foreign countryand you don't know anything.
I remember my first computer, myadvisor bought the computer for
me and I paid him every month.
He didn't have to do that.
It was not his problem, you know?
And so I think it's likereceiving the help from.
Americans in general and see how generouspeople were that to me, I'm like, you
(38:00):
know, helping, I mean, so helping.
And then giving back, giving back.
Yeah.
Giving back.
I mean, you know, I've been, reallyblessed to be help in my life,
that, you know, I try to helpother people and support them.
And just as much as I can.
I mean, and sometimes it's moneysometimes it's time, whatever it is.
So, but that to me is very importantbecause I know that I would not
(38:21):
have done what I've done in theUS if I had not been helped.
Yeah.
Interesting that, , I can understand ifyou look at how you have been helped,
that you want to give back because youknow how important it is to help people.
It's it's a fairly simple concept, right?
I'm not a very religious person, soit's not linked to any honor religious
(38:43):
belief, but it's just like, some peopleneed some help without, Any, without an
exchange of anything, they just need help.
That's an important element in there.
Yeah.
That there is not like, you know,not having an exchange of anything.
And again, this is kind of theinspiration of helping us support people.
But, sometimes we're good,sometimes we're in bad.
Yeah.
So just like, you know, it'sbeing the ability we have of,
(39:06):
of reminding ourself of that.
And especially for me, it's important.
Yeah.
Makes sense.
Lesson number nine, learn to slowdown and I wish I would say yes,
that's what I do, but please explain
yeah, no, it's just like.
Especially right now where wehave, we have access to like I
(39:26):
am and, and I love technology.
I love WhatsApp.
I love texting.
I mean, I tell my students, ifyou have to talk to me, just
send me a text or WhatsApp.
Don't, don't send me an email.
I'm gonna check my email, but Iread so many email during the day.
And then I'm just gonna be like, oh yes.
Somebody asked me a question two daysago, so I have to create a list for it.
So, but at the same time,that creates, it goes back to
(39:49):
like, it creates a lot stress.
It creates a lot of things where, and you,we can all function at very high level.
But some days it's very goodfor us to learn, to slow down.
like for example, you know,I, I'm what I go to France.
What I love about going toFrance is the, the fact that
we have nine hours difference.
And so my phone is on for my family.
They want to reach out to me, butI will turn off my phone in France
(40:11):
at seven o'clock because to meit's just like, I I'm, I am on
vacation to be able to disconnect.
I'm trying to slow down.
I'm not trying to keep my dailyjob or my daily output or input.
but I'm pretty good.
I, I, I think I'm prettygood at slowing down.
I mean, that's one aspect of COVID.
(40:32):
I mean, it's like, I am very lucky.
We have a great house and I realized,you know, I didn't have to go anywhere.
It was just like weekswithout seeing anybody.
And we had all the food we needed andjust like, oh, that's pretty cool.
You know, I have my dogs, the chickensand the, the yard to take care of and
you're realize, oh, you know, that's,you know, slowing done is a good thing.
Now, if I think of however we describeit, but up and coming professionals,
(40:54):
people with great ambition early in theircareer, would you tell them to slow down?
I, I would tell them to, to payattention to their, their mental, uh,
capacity to absorb what they think ismoving around, like, you know, getting
information because, I like the factthat in, in France or in Europe, people
get their five weeks paid vacation.
(41:15):
They get all that part.
And people looking like costa lot of money, but it's also,
it forces people to slow down.
I mean, forces people to just likedisconnect, uh, from the world.
I mean, uh, Mercedes Benzs.
I learned that from their highlevel executives, their email
system shuts down on weekend.
And the reason why, because they havedone studies that actually we don't
(41:36):
have the capacity to always be on.
So for these young people,yeah, you can try to do it,
but you are going to burn out.
And so be very judicious of basicallyunderstanding that sometimes
you just need to take a break.
And when I need to take a break,I, I need, don't go online
and don't slow down basically.
(41:57):
And how you make decision?
that's something I've learned.
I in terms of learning to slow down.
I, I try to not makedecision like on the spot.
I always say, well, let me think about it.
Because it allows me to slow down andkind of pay attention to what's happening.
There has to be a balance that that's.
Yeah, no, absolutely.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Sometimes, you know, sometimesyou need to move fast, but, I,
(42:18):
I am not sure that moving fastis the, is always the best way.
no, and it's, it's a good point.
I think common sense, tells people thatyou have to take a break from time to
time, even when you're busy and youhave, you know, working under pressure,
you do have to allow yourself because.
It's not gonna work in your favor,if you do not give yourself a break,
(42:39):
yeah.
And like, for example, I'm, , Ilove to take naps cuz you reach a
point where you're, you know, ifyou work really, if you really work
intensely on, on a lot of things, Ilike to take like a 40 minute nap.
Cause some you need to give yourbrain time to just like shut
down for a while and your brain,your, brain's still working.
Cause you, you come backand you actually refreshed.
I mean, but again, I'm, I'm very lucky.
(43:01):
I'm very blessed because I have ajob where I can basically pace myself
during the day, any way I want to.
And I know a lot of the listenersdon't have that luxury, but I, I do.
And I, I try to not forget about it.
well, and perhaps Denis, in,in your case, you're dealing.
Communication in so many differentcountries with different time zones.
So, yeah, it may be whatever in theafternoon where you're at and it's
(43:25):
gonna be morning somewhere else or
yeah, no.
Oh yeah.
And I like, you know, I, and I like,for example, I am the, the king of
falling asleep in the airplanes.
I I've fallen asleep on the airplanesbetween Phoenix and Los Angeles,
like an hour and a half I'm asleep.
I get on the plane, I'm asleep onthe plane and I get up when we land
in Los Angeles and I, and I lookaround and, you know, people are.
(43:47):
You it's just like, yeah, my wife doesn't,she likes to travel with me, but she
finds it so annoying because I get inan airplane and I'm asleep so fast.
I don't know if it's themovement of the end or something.
It just I'm like a baby in the car,you know, I just fall asleep so fast.
So, but then you
arrive at Los Angeles internationalairport and that's the, the center
of the universe as you explain,
(44:08):
right?
Yeah, exactly.
So that's a good combination.
Yeah.
Well, we are at lesson number 10,learn how to become a better mentor.
And I have some thoughts, some questions,but please, go ahead and your thoughts.
So, again, because professionallyI'm an educator at the core.
So when people ask me, what do I do?
I always say I'm an educatorjust happen to have a PhD.
(44:31):
I know a few things, but I'mjust an educator at the core.
and I've learned that.
Being a mentor to peopleis super rewarding, but not
everybody's ready to be a mentor.
And being a mentor requires you to yeah.
To slow down to listen to theperson you're trying to work with.
(44:53):
Yeah.
So it's somebody you are trying tohelp, uh, because you cannot say,
oh, I have the solution for you,cuz then you are not a mentor.
You are just putting your, your, yourframework, your lenses, your way of
looking at the world in a way that,um, is not what the person needs.
So, so I, I hope I do that,correctly at the school.
(45:14):
Um, but yeah, to me, that's uh,and a mentor, you know, I have.
Have an expression is like you meetpeople for reason or season or lifetime,
and sometimes you could just meetsomebody for like, you know, a couple
of weeks and that's it, you're done,you know, um, they needed you for that
one thing and, you know, season couldbe a semester, you know, and a lifetime,
(45:38):
it could be friends you have for life.
So that's the part of, and again,I'm not saying I'm really good at it.
I'm just saying it's one of my lessonsthat, you know, I love to be known as a
mentor, but it's just, you know, sometimesit's that self capacity of self awareness.
Well, as a professor educator teacher, itfits well with, with serving as a mentor.
(46:01):
just curious, do you currentlyhave a mentor yourself?
No, that's a good question, butI've had people have admired.
My, my first.
professor and, when I came tothe us was an amazing mentor.
He I'm sure he didn't,you know, unfortunately he
passed away a few years ago.
He knew he was an amazing mentor becausehe had a way, like, he's the one who
(46:21):
bought my first computer, you know, buthe, he was not from the US, he was from
Ghana and he had, he understood kind ofthe struggle of international student.
And so he had that ability to be a mentor.
Yeah, it was just really amazing,an amazing relationship that we had.
And I could never use his firstname even after I got my PhDs.
Like, no, it's still Dr.
(46:42):
Tase, not Victor.
I mean, I could use his firstname around other people to me.
It's just like, no, that's the part oflike the mentor mentee was just like,
um, yeah, it was a, yeah, it did impactmy, my life, but right now, no I don't.
Denis.
It's, it's great to have thisconversation and talking about your 10
lessons and it makes me think about,are there any lessons that you have
(47:05):
unlearned in your life, in your career?
From the 10 I just gave you?
No, just it could be, but it could bein, in just in life that you thought,
Hmm, I gotta do this differently.
You did touch on that duringyour 10 lessons, but there may
be another one that stands out.
To unlearn, um, I'm not kidding.
(47:26):
That that question is really puzzling. But to me it's like, so it's something
I used to do that I'm not doing anymore.
Exactly, exactly.
And like, you know, I, I don't want touse the word aggressive, but it goes to
that anger issues, like always wantedto be, cuz you know, you, you asked
the question earlier about like earlyin your career and that part, it's a
learn, you have to learn to be likenumber one, number two, number three.
(47:50):
Yeah.
Then that's something you have tounlearn actually as you move up in an
organization because, that was so thatpart maybe is the lesson I had to unlearn.
It's like I had to unlearnto be that competitive.
You know, you talk, talkearlier about the, the mentor.
I remember having a, somebodywatched me teach one time and
he gave me the best lesson ever.
Cuz I was teaching and Iwas like, man, I'm good.
(48:11):
I'm you know, I was thinkingthat I'm really good.
I'm really good.
And at the end he, he came to me, hesaid, um, and somebody, I respected
also cuz he had been doing it.
Well, he, he was one of yourprofessor at Thunderbird actually.
and so basically he talked tome, he said, you know what?
People know you are smart,but it's not about you.
It's about them.
And I'm like, and that was just like, ohit was like such a light bulb because you
(48:34):
realize that's what being a, to me, in myrole as an educator, that's what it is.
It's not about me.
It's about the, the students andthat shift I had to unlearn it.
So that's, it's a lesson that causeyou get a PhD and it's all about PhD
is the most selfish degree people willever get because it's not about you.
(48:55):
You, you are the one who work.
You, you know, it's all the PhDs,the, yeah, it's super selfish as
a degree, but then if you reallywant to educate and engage people,
you have to unlearn the fact.
It's not about you because by thetime you have a PhD, everybody, okay.
You have a stamp of approval that, youknow, something, and then you have to
unlearn being selfish with your knowledgeand be able to listen to people.
(49:16):
So maybe that's a lesson.
I think it's a very, very importantpoint that you're raising.
You were just talking aboutyour biggest success was
obtaining or achieving the PhD.
Yeah.
And what you're sharing now isto say, Hey, it's not about me.
It's about my students.
And that, part was just, but it's.
I remember when he told me that, becauseI was just trying to go through all
(49:39):
the material and it's like, you know,people know you are smart, just shut up
and listen to them and were like, what?
And it was just such a, so, you know, whenI was telling you earlier about you meet
people for reason, a season or lifetime.
That's he, I met him for that reason,you know, and I worked with him for a
couple of months afterwards, but that wasthe reason why he taught me a couple of
(49:59):
things about really being an educator.
And it was just like, andthat lesson was so quick.
It's like, it's not about you.
So about the student, I'm like,oh, oh yeah, of course it is.
But he totally counterintuitive.
It's a great point to end this particularprogram with, thank you so much.
Denis Leclerc, we do it the French way.
Professor.
(50:20):
Thank you for sharing your wisdomswith our global audience in closing.
You've been listening to the internationalpodcast, 10 lessons it took me 50
years to learn sponsored by PDF.
The professional developmentforum PDF provides webinars,
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Podcast and parties and bestof all, it's all for free.
(50:42):
For more information, please visitprofessional development forum.org.
Our guest today is Denis Leclerc,Denis Leclerc, professor cross-cultural
communications and global negotiationssharing his global lessons.
It took him 50 years to learn andto our audience, don't forget to
leave as a review or a comment.
(51:03):
You can also email us atpodcast@10lessonslearned.com.
That is podcast.
Number 10, lessons learned.com.
Go ahead and subscribe.
So you don't miss any future episodes.
And remember, this is a podcastthat makes the world wiser and
wiser podcast by podcast, lesson bylesson merci beaucoup et au revoir.
(51:30):
Thank you, and stay safe.
Thank you au revoir.
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