March 21, 2023 • 38 mins
Zoe Fragou is an organizational Psychologist and explains why” everything is a negotiation”, why you should “focus on your strengths”, how “pettiness stalls your career” and much more. Hosted by Siebe Van Der Zee.
About Zoe FragouZoe Fragou is an Organisational Psychologist with an MSc in Human Resources Management, a clinical psychologist license, a diploma in Business Coaching & Mentorship and a Certificate in Agile Leadership.
At the moment, she is a PhD Candidate at Panteion University and her research is mainly focused on the psychometrics of the corporate culture.
Alongside her academic interests, she is operating professionally in the full spectrum of her science, taking over projects of culture transformation, employee training and development, business coaching, personal branding, public speaking, and writing, for both private and corporate clients globally.
She is a mentor for Women on Top, a feministic organization trying to bring equality in the workspace, a senior member of the Hellenic Institute of Coaching, and was voted best career coach in the Global Coaching Conference of 2021.
Episode Notes
Lesson 1: Everything is a negotiation. 04:37 Lesson 2: Everyone is a mess; some people hide it better. 06:45 Lesson 3: Focus on your strengths. 09:52 Lesson 4: Don't swipe it under the carpet. 14:23 Lesson 5: Pettiness stalls your career. 17:45 Lesson 6: Be the person you needed when you were younger. 20:19 Lesson 7: All we have is the connections that we make. 26:05 Lesson 8: Stop starting, start finishing. 27:53 Lesson 9: Consistency is about showing up. 30:33 Lesson 10: Always be the last one to speak. 31:42
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
That's why we say never meet yourheroes, , because we always think
(00:03):
that this person is so amazing.
They've got everything together and thenwe meet them and we come close and we say,
okay, they don't have everything together.
They just seem likethey're having everything.
Hello and welcome to our program,10 Lessons Learned, where we talk to
business people, journalists, authors,professors, ambassadors, leaders, and
(00:27):
luminaries from all over the world.
My name is Siebe Van DerZee, and I'm your host.
I'm originally from theNetherlands, happily residing in
the beautiful Grand Canyon stateof Arizona in the United States.
I'm also known as theDutchman in the desert.
Our guest today is ZoeFragou from Athens in Greece.
(00:47):
Zoe is an organizational psychologist byprofession, an agile leadership developer
by expertise, a data driven organizationalchange and culture transformer by passion.
A model by Hobby, an author bythe Force of Nature and a keynote
speaker and podcast host becauseshe loves sharing and spreading
(01:10):
inspiration and building momentum.
Maybe no surprise her first name, Zoe.
In the Greek language means life.
So besides actually being fromGreece, Zoe describes herself.
Full of life.
Zoe is currently a PhD candidate atthe Panteion University in Athens.
(01:31):
She is a mentor for women ontop, an organization that brings
equality to the workplace.
She's also a senior member of theHellenic Institute of Coaching, and
Zoe was voted best career coach in theglobal coaching conference of 2021.
You can learn more aboutZoe Fragou on our website.
(01:54):
10lessonslearned.com.
Hello Zoe Yassa.
Thank you for joining us.
Yasu Siebe.
Thank you very much for having me over.
What introduction now everythingyou're gonna do, no matter how hard
to try, I will fall short for sure.
, thank you for that.
I doubt it.
I doubt it.
I have the feeling there's a lotof energy that you bring, to the
(02:16):
table, and I'm kind of curious, whatinspired you to become a coach, a
career coach, a performance coach?
What, what brought that to you?
. Well actually I do have, a clinical license as well.
as well, I was actually working inthe psychiatric hospital of Athens.
I was doing, alcoholic rehabilitation, butit was very soon that I realized that I'm
(02:36):
very business oriented and I think that,you know, in the emotional intelligence
suite, there is a particular variablethat we call organizational awareness.
And it has to do with how fastand easy it's for a person to
understand the inner dynamics.
In the environment that they'venever found themselves again.
So I think that I score a bithigh there cause it's kind of easy
(02:58):
for me to join an organizationand approach it like a puzzle.
Understand which piece fits andwhy this piece doesn't fit, and
how to mix and match them sothat they can give out the best.
So I can say that it's a, it's an outcomethat came really, really naturally to me.
Now, do you coach typically groups ofpeople or are you coaching one particular
(03:20):
individual in an organization or both?
Hmm, well, I would say that 50% ofmy clients are corporate and I, my
specialty there is culture change.
So they usually might come to meafter a merger or buyout or succession
differences, or are they just.
Might want to change their culture into amore professional way or a more diversity,
(03:43):
diversity and equality oriented one.
So that's when I go and I doteam building activities, group
coaching, trainings as well.
And everything that fallsunder this umbrella.
But at the same time, I also haveprivate clients that come to me
globally from all over the world.
And their issues are usually leadershipdevelopment or soft skills development.
(04:04):
Sometimes it can be burnout,recovery, or they might be
being mobbed in the workspace.
So they need some help in order toknow how to put more boundaries.
So basically a littlebit of both, I would say.
Yeah.
And you seem to enjoy it, right?
You, you like it?
Well, yes.
I really, really like it.
I, it's not just somethingthat I do as a work.
I really believe that our work is abig and important part of our identity.
(04:29):
Therefore, it's our responsibility tofind a way to make it healthier and
more enjoyable, so we can't have suchan important piece of our identity
being associated with negative emotion.
Makes sense.
Well, let's take a look at the 10 lessons.
There's a lot of wisdom in there.
lesson number one,everything is a negotiation.
(04:51):
What are your thoughts about that?
Well, my thoughts are that, for manypeople this isn't very clear and
they think that if they are politeenough or kind enough or patient
enough, they're gonna get something.
And it's true.
There is this, you know, public wisdomthat says nice things come to those who
wait, but only the things that are leftbehind by the ones that were running.
(05:16):
And no one tells you the second part.
So this is something that everyoneneeds to understand when resources are
limited and in general, resources arelimited in the word we live because many
people end up wanting the same things.
Therefore, if you don't fight for whatyou want, how are you supposed to get it?
And why should you expectthat you're gonna get it?
(05:37):
The others are gonna fight.
So when you don't realize that everythingis a negotiation, that means that you
are the only one, not negotiating.
how do you determine whatis worth fighting for?
Because when you go through life, thereare challenges, and sometimes perhaps
it's to say, look, don't worry about this.
Don't worry about that.
How do you determine thatsomething is worth fighting for?
(05:59):
That's a very good question actually,because I also think that many people.
Struggle with that.
They both struggle because they don'tknow what they, they should be fighting
for, but at the same time, it seems likethey struggle even more because they
don't know what they should be letting go.
Yeah.
And move forward.
So I would say that deep down, weall know what's worth fighting for
and the instincts are always there.
(06:20):
It's just that we are trained froma very, very young and early age
not to listen to these instincts.
Think of a child that you give, yougive it a broccoli and it spits it out,
and then we tell it, no, it's good foryou, and we shove it up their neck.
There is a reason why the childdoesn't want the broccoli.
Maybe it's intolerant or maybe itcauses as a travel in their stomach.
(06:41):
So these instincts, not only shouldwe as adults go back to listening
more to our guts, but at the sametime, we shouldn't train our children
to not listen to their guts anymore
Makes sense.
I like it.
let's, let's move on.
Lesson number two.
Everyone is a mess.
Some people hide it better.
Hmm.
(07:02):
Some thoughts come to my mind, butplease, what are your thoughts on that?
. Well, the thing is that if you, if you are a person who is into self-loathing
an entire life can pass like thatand always thinking that you're doing
something wrong and everyone elsegathered together and, but at the end,
pretty much no one's gathered together.
(07:22):
We all have to suffer.
And we all have to sufferbecause life is so hard.
If you think about it.
Everything that brings us pleasure isconnected with great pain in this life.
Like think of giving birth.
At the same moment when you're doingsomething so important to you, you can't
even mentally, physically connect to thisthing because you're such an amazing pain.
(07:42):
And then the suffering that youmight feel from losing someone, for
example, it can never be compared toany sort of joy that you can feel.
Mm-hmm.
. But at the same time, we needto wake up every day and somehow
decide actively that one more daywe're gonna make it one more day.
We're gonna be mentally healthy,we're gonna go out there.
And we all go through that.
(08:04):
So to think that you're the onlyone that's going through that, and
you're the only who changes your mindor change everything, and sometimes
you want this one thing and then youdon't want that, then that's futile.
Most of the people are like that.
It's just that not everybodyis exposing themselves.
Not everybody feels comfortable sharing.
Everybody goes through their own journey.
(08:27):
I'm curious, because I, Ilike what you're saying here.
Everyone is a mess, but is it alsothat you're saying no one is perfect?
Is that, is that the same, butmaybe, you know, it sounds friendly.
Yeah, it does sound friendlier andbecause it sounds so much friendlier,
people don't get the point of it.
(08:48):
They know, they do know that no oneis perfect and it hasn't really helped
them, but they need to understandthat everyone is actually a mess.
Some messes are cleaner and somemesses are different, and for, for,
for me, for example, maybe yourmess is not a mess, but also for
you, maybe my mess is not a mess.
That's why it's so important to understandthat it's almost never personal.
(09:10):
It's only personal.
If it's about you, youthinking about yourself.
That's the only personal that we have.
Everything else, you know,people have so many, many things
in their minds that, yeah,
I think that's such an importantpoint that you're making
and that's why I asked you.
Yeah.
No one is perfect.
That sounds.
very friendly.
you know, we all understand, but whenyou talk about everyone is a mess, that
(09:33):
perhaps turns on the light a littlebit quicker that people say, Hmm.
Yeah, as a matter of fact, you know,and we can all think about ourselves.
I am a mess.
And I guess that even you there,there must have been many.
That's why we say never meet yourheroes, , because we always think
that this person is so amazing.
They've got everything together and thenwe meet them and we come close and we say,
(09:55):
okay, they don't have everything together.
They just seem likethey're having everything.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah, that's a good point.
And it kinda links perhaps to lessonnumber three, focus on your strength.
Yeah.
This is a very important lesson forme because I think that the entire
educational system is not promoting that.
(10:18):
The entire educational system, whatthey're doing is they're trying
to convince you that it's veryimportant to improve your weaknesses.
And that's also important, but totry to make a career and a successful
career out of your weaknesses.
For me, that's paranoia.
Because you can spend your entire, forexample, let's say that I'm very good
at listening to people very good, butit's very stressful for me to speak.
(10:42):
Why become a speaker when I canbecome a very successful therapist?
Right.
And then you think about studentsat school, what's happening there?
Someone is good, let's say at mathand weak at English language, and then
parents, they find them a professionaltutor to help them with language.
Then what happens is that this childactually loses their confidence.
(11:04):
So basically all the new research whenit comes to self-work and self-confidence
says that you should actually putthe child into more math classes.
Because all these extra confidence thatthey're gonna win from that are gonna
give them the emotional support theyneed to get better in English as well.
You are well educated, PhD candidate.
(11:24):
obviously your focus ison, on these, issues.
but how and when did you learn aboutyour own strength and weaknesses and,
and was there a moment that you realized.
I am not perfect or to use yourprevious lesson, I'm a mess.
And, how, how did that comeabout in your own experience?
(11:45):
Personally me, I have a crisislike that once every four years.
Ok.
Are you kidding Every four years at least.
I have one big, huge existential crisiswhere I'm like, okay, this is not working.
I'm changing everything.
I'm trying something new andthat's okay because it means I'm
growing and it's totally normal.
But the things that work four yearsago are not working this year.
Last year in particular, I had this,professional journey in, bologna in Italy
(12:10):
where I met this, artist from Portugal.
And I asked him a little bit about hisart and he explained to me, he did a, a
very interesting project about, racism.
And he explained to me that, youknow what Zoe, he said for the last.
Three years I've been divedso much into this project.
I couldn't think of anything else.
I gave it my soul and this is myfirst international exhibition
(12:31):
and Okay, so he was 16 years old.
Wow.
Wow.
Yes.
When I came back to Greece, I waslike, oh my God, what am I doing?
Like, what am I?
And that's how I was doing well.
But I realized then somethingvery important for me.
I realized that this child, thisother, this teenager, That's something
(12:53):
that I didn't have until that point.
It was very difficultfor me to expose myself.
I was always thinking, you know, maybeI should keep it more, be more humble
and keep it down and I don't haveto speak so much about what I know.
And then I saw this child putting it allout there and I was like, you know what?
Yeah.
That's the only way we can share a messageby putting everything we got out there.
(13:14):
And that's what.
Inspired me to become a podcastguest and to try to, you know,
share my knowledge with more people.
I see it, you know, as you know, I'm arecruiter and when, people are looking for
a job and they go through the interviewprocess and the client company likes
them and they go to the next interview,and then ultimately the company hires
(13:37):
someone else that can be a big setback foran individual and many times they start
doubting their qualifications and theysay, well, I'm probably not good enough
and I'm probably because you know, theylike me until they hired someone else.
Do you deal with that in your coachingas well as a career coach that you
have people that are basically,underestimating who they are and
(14:03):
do not focus on their strength?
Very, very often.
Yeah.
And the, the thing that they're doingwrong is that they're focusing so
much on understanding other people'smotivations instead of focusing on
what's happening inside of them.
And the problem with that is thatit's the most big, the biggest trap.
You will never know otherpeople's motivation.
(14:24):
You ask other people abouttheir motivation, and
sometimes they have no idea.
They tell you, ha, I'm, I'm crazy.
I do crazy things.
Yeah.
No, good point.
Thank you.
Lesson number four, don'tswipe it under the carpet.
I like that one.
Yes.
I also like that, I meet all thesepeople in business and they always
come to me and they tell me I'mamazing at, conflict management.
(14:46):
Amazing.
At conflict management.
Well, that's not a medal to wearbecause conflict management is not
the same as conflict resolution.
Absolutely.
The conflict management isactually knowing how to swipe
it under the carpet to the.
The time comes, you need to walk abovethis carpet and you fall down because
it's such a big mountain of thingsthat you left and managed actually.
(15:07):
So no, don't try to be diplomatic whenit comes to your needs and when it comes
to staff that are, are creating an issuefor you, we need to be able to erase the
subjects and solve them the moment theyappear, because only when we do it, the
moment they appear, we have the dignityand self-control to deal with them
(15:28):
with appropriate amount of intensity.
While it will let them and then they grow,then they build up, then they escalate
and must probably we're gonna overreact.
Yeah, I, I'm, I'm thinking abouta question that, I was asked
during a seminar and there wereseveral participants on the panel.
I was one of them, so they askedme the question, but everybody
(15:49):
else was asked to answer it.
And I'm just gonna throw it out to you.
what do you do when you see somethingthat you believe is unethical?
So you work for an organization and youobserve something that you believe is eth.
. Maybe it's not unethical.
Maybe other people can explain whythat happened or, or, but how would
(16:11):
you respond to that simple question?
It can be challenging, but howwould you respond to something to
say, I think this is unethical.
Would you speak out, would you stay quiet?
Would you say, Hey, I, Idon't wanna lose my job.
If I complain about, for example, myboss, I'm gonna get myself in trouble.
Or are you principal tosay, I have to mention that
(16:35):
Well personally, I've beenhaving vigilante fantasies all
my life, , so I would be what?
What do you call?
Social justice warrior.
I've been speaking up sinceschool, like I, I was always the
one, but why did you say this?
The professor?
To my classmate, I don't thinkthat that's a correct comment.
I was always speaking up and that'swhy I'm doing what I'm doing today
because it's very important for meto be employees Biggest advocate.
(16:58):
So that I can transfer their pointof view to the management and then
we can solve together and we canfind a way that works for both sides.
But at the same time, I do realizethat there are many people that
are afraid and they're scared.
Having said that, sometimesdoing the right thing means
that you need to do it scared.
Thank you for saying that becauseit has gotten me in trouble
over time, by speaking out.
(17:20):
And I have to admit, ofcourse, I can be wrong.
but I felt it was necessary to speak upbecause in my mind it was, for example,
unethical or wrong, whatever it was.
But, I, I'm glad to hear that from you aswell, because it is important to speak out
if you can quote unquote, afford to do so.
I can also see people who.
(17:41):
Very dependent on their job just to paythe bills and to get food on the table.
I would not expect them to speakup and put their job at risk,
depending on the issue, of course.
But that's a little bit different.
Yeah.
yeah, good point.
Thank you.
lesson number five,pettiness stalls your career.
I'm curious, please explainand perhaps you have an example
(18:04):
pettiness.
Well, people don't understand that,but holding grudges Is such a negative
factor for someone's career because atthe end of the day, there is this theory
that's called the sunflower effect,and that has to do with how people
are basically trained to be attractedby positive people towards the light.
(18:24):
Like the sunflowers are alwaysturning towards the sun.
Therefore, if you are the kind of pettyperson in your mind, you think that
you're achieving something by holdingto what's important, but at the end,
you're losing network opportunities.
You're destroying relationships, and youcreate a, negative vibe at your working
space, and people don't like that.
(18:46):
So only you have to lose something at thatparticular moment you might be feeling.
holding to your grudge is more importantand the other person has to suffer,
but do they really have to suffer?
And does this really worth it so muchas to even stall your career or affect
your career in a negative manner?
Knowing when to give up is sucha trait, it's, it's basically,
(19:10):
for me, the definition of wisdom.
I had not heard of the sunflower concept,but I, I can definitely understand the way
you say the sunflower will direct itselftowards the sunshine no matter what.
That's a very interesting
point.
Yeah, and the sameapplies to human beings.
That's why you see some people that areso popular and so chill and so cool.
(19:32):
Generally cool what we say,and people always like them.
And then there are other people.
They have this darkness.
And what do you think darkness is?
Basically, it's the publicterm for resentment.
Yeah.
Yeah, good point.
Good point.
Zoe, we're talking today to, Zoe Fragou,a successful organizational psychologist
(19:52):
and a full of life dynamic performancecoach sharing her 10 lessons learned.
I want to thank ouraffiliate partner Audible.
Audible is an amazing wayto experience our program.
10 lessons.
But also books and other podcasts,and, it allows you to build a library
of knowledge all in one place.
(20:13):
You can start your free 30 day trialby going to audible trial.com/ten.
Lessons learned.
Again, that is audible trial.com.
One zero lessons learned all lowercaseto get your free 30 day trial.
Well, let's move along.
Lesson number six.
Be the person you neededwhen you were younger.
(20:36):
Oh, this one's.
Personal
This one is personal and I've writtenvery recently an article about that and
it's personal because what led me to wrotewrite this article is thinking about all
these things that would have saved me somuch time and would have helped me so much
(20:57):
through my career if somebody has told me.
And then all these people knew aboutall these things, and then no one told.
So basically I realized thatthis pathogenic cycle of futile
competition needs to end with us.
And when I say with us, it's mygeneration, we need to do better.
(21:17):
We need to be able to mentor theyounger and the the newer people,
even if we are younger selves, andprovide them with every little piece
of information that if we had it ontime, it would've been helpful for
There a lesson, and I, I don't meanto put you on the spots, but you
can, I'm sure you can handle this.
Is there a lesson that you wouldteach yourself if you would be,
(21:41):
can I say 20 years old, right?
Doesn't matter the age, but lessonsthat you have learned that you wish
you would've picked up earlier in life.
Is there maybe an example?
I can give you a very, very niceexample to negotiate harder.
Have you ever heard of thepay gap between women and men?
Oh, yes.
Have you heard about it?
Of course.
Oh, yes.
Course.
(22:01):
Why do you think exactly happens?
It's not like the employerssee you and they interview
and say, okay, you're a woman.
I'm gonna give you 30% less.
It's just that women accept30% less because they, we are
trained socially to accept less.
And nobody helped me understand thatI had to figure it out on my own.
(22:21):
Do you know it's gonna be, I don't know ifwe have time, but it's a very fun story.
Some years ago I was listeningto, Jennifer Lawrence, and that
year she was the most successfulactress and she had gained
something like 50 million that year.
And then the most successfulactor was Robert Downey Jr.
Who had gained 80 million.
(22:42):
So she said in an interviewthat, you know what?
I also blame myself because I realizenow that I could have negotiated harder
and I could have gained 80 million.
So when I heard that, Isaid, you know what Zoe?
You know about pay gap.
And you know that this happensand you know about the stigma,
so there's no way I'm not beingaffected by everything that I hear.
So I took out a proposal that Iwas preparing for a client, and
(23:05):
in this proposal, let's say I hadgiven an X amount and I raised it
by 25%, just to see what happens.
So I'll go there to them, I presentthe proposal and they tell me, okay,
okay, but the money is a bit too much.
We will accept this number,which was already 20% more
from what I would have been.
Okay with
It, it is such an importantpoint, obviously, and for me as
(23:29):
a, you know, sometimes I say asa, a tall white guy, it's easy to
talk about these things, right?
But I, I can assure you that from thevery start of my career in the 1980s,
and I'll keep it short here, but Iworked with a colleague, female, and.
We guys, we thought, how did she get thatjob, because, you know, it was different.
(23:51):
it turned out very quickly withinthe first six months that she
did better business than I did.
She was a great person to work with,and it was a lesson that I learned
early, early on about the equality.
And I am still today.
Frustrated when I encounter the inequalitywhen it comes to the, the pay gap or
(24:14):
you know, it's a female qualified forthis position, can we really do this?
I feel very strongly about that, andI have seen in my recruiting career so
many impressive women and where evenclients said, well, it's hard to find a
female for maybe hard but not impossible.
And gradually it takes time.
(24:35):
And of course, you and I both knowthat there are certain countries where
women are still very much restricted.
We can say that's not right.
Most of the countries.
To be fair, most of thecountries, not some countries,
well, yeah, and, and you know, and thenthe definition of what is restricted,
you can say they don't have full access.
(24:56):
Yes.
That is restricted.
Or in some cases they're not allowedto work in certain positions.
And that is, you know, even more extreme.
But do you believe that there is changehappening and gradually, you know,
give a time that we're on that roadto equality or do you have any doubts?
(25:16):
Yeah, tough question.
Yeah.
We didn't come so far to only come thisfar, but at the same time it's not enough.
I will tell you something that youwon't believe, but up to this day,
there is an entire part of Greecewhere women are not allowed to enter.
Because the church has dedicated this partto Holy Mother, and according to that,
(25:36):
it would be an insult to her for otherwomen to enter an entire part of Greece.
And when I say a part, don't imaginea small village or a small even town.
It's an entire part of Greecewhere women are not allowed.
So no, it's not enough.
We should do more.
Yeah.
And I, I appreciate you saying that.
(25:58):
And of course, our podcast 10Lessons Learned goes global.
we have listeners truly allover the world, and that's
part of our, our mission.
And, I'm very grateful for yousharing these, experiences and, they
need to be heard all over the world.
So thank you.
Thank you for that.
I really appreciate it.
moving along, lesson number seven, allwe have is the connections that we make.
(26:21):
I have some thoughts aboutthat, but please explain
your, your side of the story.
Well, it's a very lonely word, andthe only way to fight this existential
loneliness is through connecting withother people, and we should never
neglect that sometime career, job,daily life, they come in the way.
But at the end, all we have isthe connections we make, not only
(26:43):
in the networking sense, which ofcourse is helpful, but also are we
anything without our support group?
Whatever support group means toanyone, but relationships need
to be taken care of, and weshould never, never forget that.
Don't take for granted yourfriends, spend time with them.
It's not just about quality,it's also about quantity.
(27:06):
If you don't have experiences about aperson, then there is no relationship.
It will fade away.
Yeah, it's a very good point.
Do you have a specificexample that comes to mind?
Have you noticed that themore the older people get?
For example, they tend to let stuff.
Family and kids and dailylife and occupation get in the
way of meeting their friends.
(27:27):
And then after a while theydon't have friends anymore.
They call their friends andit's, they don't even know
what's going on in their lives.
And then when you're younger, thereare traditions, there are things
that you're always doing together,and then things are getting in the
way and you don't do them together.
Well, what I'm trying to say isthat don't allow these things to
get in the way, because most of thetimes they're just excuses, You feel
(27:49):
tired, don't cancel the coffee withyour friend because you feel tired.
It's gonna be rewarding.
I swear it's gonna berewarding in the long run.
I can hear the coaching you.
Thank you.
That's a good point.
and, and it, it kind ofconnects perhaps to your
lesson number eight.
stop starting, start finishing.
I thought about that and I like it a lot.
but, but please, your thoughts on that?
(28:09):
Oh my gosh, that makes me a bit mad.
I, okay.
I will tell about mysister and I hope she does.
She's very, very young.
I hope she won't listen tothis podcast and get mad at me.
She's very young.
She's like 10 years younger than me,and every year she comes to me and
is like, this year I'm gonna startItalian and I'm gonna start French,
and I'm gonna start another year.
Didn't you start last year?
I don't know yoga?
(28:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I am moved over that.
Okay.
Maybe it's important to get deep intosomething in order to learn how to
love it and become, let it becomemore complex and understand its depth.
When you constantly switch throughactivities and switch through people
and switch through professions,you never go deep into anything.
(28:50):
Never.
Yeah.
So you never really learn anything, andit's very easy to do the first steps of
something when you pick up a language.
So I pick up French the first year.
It's very easy.
You can, everyone can learn how to sayBonjour , how are you doing, et cetera.
But then if you actually want to getinto that and be able to communicate
deep with a person, it takes time.
So at this point, maybeit's more about quality.
(29:14):
Maybe it's the opposite of what we saidbefore, and maybe it's more important
to start finishing things insteadof constantly starting new things.
How
do you see the future of your career?
I mean, you are highly successful.
is there a moment perhaps, that youare thinking of and say, well, if
I reach this point in my career, orperhaps even an age bracket that you
(29:38):
say, if I turn, you know, this age,I'm going to change things, I'm gonna
take it easy, or do you see yourself.
You're gonna keep going.
You're going to continue,continue, continue.
Well, I don't approach it as a careeras much as I approach it, as as a
lifestyle, because I'm a scientist.
So it's not like if I didn'tread psychology, I would
(29:59):
read, I don't know, astrology.
I really, really, really, I'mcommitted to what I'm doing.
It's my interest.
It has always been my interest.
I've been reading about psychologysince I was a kid, basically.
Yeah, it's a, it's moreof a lifestyle for me.
It's what I'm doing and handling my life.
It's internal, it's, it's the way youare wired that it, it comes from within.
(30:20):
yeah, maybe if I was doing a differentkind of job that was not connected
to my inner passions, I wouldhave this need that you described.
But at the moment, I, I feel it morelike my interests are switching more.
Like, for example, this period in my life.
I'm more connected with my speaking,but I do also know that maybe later in
life I would like to write even more.
(30:42):
So yeah,
makes sense.
I like it.
lesson number nine.
We're almost at lesson number10, but lesson number nine,
consistency is about showing up.
Oh, yes.
This, I will connectwith a previous example.
of learning a new language.
So it's not about always giving you 100%.
This is also a very nice excusethat people are using in order to
(31:05):
not show up and not do the job.
I'm not feeling it today, or I won'tgive my best self, so since I'm
a little tired, I won't go to thegym or since I'm a little tired,
I will cancel my French class.
It's not about that.
It's about showing up.
Even if you give 10%, it'sabout showing up even if you.
20%.
Some very few times you might give100, but if you only show up when
(31:28):
you have 100 to give, there's noway you will reach any outcome.
So we need to break this patternof believing that consistency
is about always being a 100.
Because even if you just go to the gymand run for 10 minutes, it's better
than not going to the gym at all.
It's a fact.
I fully 100% agree with you.
(31:49):
It is so important Interesting.
Well, lesson number 10, alwaysbe the last one to speak.
Wow.
I like to hear your thoughts on that.
. Well, I think that especially for people that are very dynamic personalities
and they tend to occupy a lot of spacein the room or maybe in, they're in a
leadership position, this one is evenmore important to understand because when
(32:13):
you're the last one to speak, not only doyou gain yourself extra time, but you can
learn from the wisdom of other people.
So you won't repeat yourself,you won't say the obvious,
and you can fix a thought.
So it's very, very importantlesson in my opinion.
One that for me it took a lot of timeto learn because I'm very, you know,
(32:34):
passionate usually and very spontaneous.
So it's the kind of lesson that itrequired maturity for me to learn
The concept of active learning, isthat something that you apply in
your, in your work, in your coaching?
Yeah, of course, very much.
And, not only in, in and in a very passivesense as well, I'm trying to learn from
every single conversation that I have.
(32:55):
I'm learning from my clients.
I might be learning from my clientsmore than the learning from me.
Yeah, I hear you.
I hear you.
I mean that, that's a verygood way of looking at me.
Which makes sense because by theway, my clients are brilliant.
They're like super successful,amazing individual from all over
the world, from, so I would bestupid not to learn from them.
But you can help them, you can guide them,you can point out certain elements of.
(33:21):
Whatever, behavior,performance, et cetera.
I'm just, you know what, I'mjust their critique partner.
I'm just there to raise adifferent perspective, but they're
doing all the job themselves.
I won't take any credit fortheir own transformation.
You're, you're very humble whenyou say that because I know
you have a great reputation.
I'm, I'm also curious, I want toask you another question here.
(33:42):
Are there any lessons in life in yourlife that you have learned that perhaps
you would say you have unlearned,in other words, lessons that you
have unlearned in your life that youdecided to do it different differently?
Go a different direction.
Okay.
Yes.
That's interesting.
And it actually connects a lot with,the last thing we said, younger in life.
(34:07):
I really thought that being patientand waiting for things to happen and
waiting for other people to thinkabout my needs was key, and that if I
waited enough, then the other personis gonna understand what I need.
They're gonna give it to me.
Thankfully I unlearned that and now Ido know and I say to everyone that if
(34:27):
you don't speak up about your needs,you will never get what you want.
Never speaking up is key.
And when I say speaking up, I makeverbally with actual words say it.
Don't assume they will understand.
Don't show it with body language.
Don't show it with a silent treatmentor a passive aggressive way.
Very, very clearly.
(34:49):
Even when it comes to crazystuff that you might want.
Some years ago when I was a student,I was watching Hugh Jackman presenting
the Tonys, the Emmys something,and I really liked him and I said,
oh my God, I love what he's doing.
I think I would be so good at that.
On my own.
I thought of that.
Okay, so then I made a video,a video myself, and I sent it
(35:10):
to many event companies and.
I think that I would be a very good mc.
Try me out if you have, and Iended up working as a master
of ceremony for two years.
I've presented while a student, I'vepresented awards, I've presented events,
and it was the funniest period of my life.
I think this would never have, how were,would these people know that I can do that
(35:32):
if I didn't send the demo of myself on my
Fascinating.
You make me think of a managementguru in the United States.
he is, a little bit older these days.
Jack Welch, I don't knowif you've heard of him.
He was with, GeneralElectric, very successful.
He has written several books on managementand, at some point he talks about what he
(35:53):
explains as the four E's words that startwith the letter E and number one, Energy,
you, Zoe, you beam out a lot of energy.
The second E is the abilityto energize other people.
And again, in your work and, and in whatyou're sharing, you seem to be very much
(36:14):
someone that can energize other people.
Good for you.
The third E is everyone.
Every person has a certain edge, somethingthat makes them unique and clearly.
we could probably talk for another, let'ssay 10 lessons because, There are a lot
of things that you do and it's obvious.
And the fourth E that Jack Welchis using is the ability to execute.
(36:38):
That's slightly different, but tobe able to have measurable results
and that's something that we haven'ttouched on today, but I wouldn't be
surprised if you cover that E as well.
So very interesting.
And, I thank you so much for sharingyour wisdom with our audience.
And, with that I'll makesome closing comments.
first of all, Zoe, thank youso much for joining us today.
(37:02):
Thank you for sharing yourwisdoms with our global audience.
you have been listening.
To the international program.
10 Lessons Learned.
This episode is produced by RobertHossary, and as always, we are supported
by the Professional Development Forum.
Our guest today, Zoe Fragou, a successfulorganizational psychologist and a full
(37:22):
of life dynamic performance coach.
Sharing her 10 lessons learned.
And to our audience.
Don't forget to leave usa review or a comment.
You can also email us atpodcast 10 lessons learned.com.
That is podcast number 1010 lessons learned.com.
(37:43):
I hope you will subscribe and, in thatway you don't miss any future episodes,
And remember, this is a podcast thatmakes the world wiser and wiser.
Lesson by lesson.
Thank you and stay safe.
That's why we say never meet yourheroes, , because we always think
(00:03):
that this person is so amazing.
They've got everything together and thenwe meet them and we come close and we say,
okay, they don't have everything together.
They just seem likethey're having everything.
Hello and welcome to our program,10 Lessons Learned, where we talk to
business people, journalists, authors,professors, ambassadors, leaders, and
(00:27):
luminaries from all over the world.
My name is Siebe Van DerZee, and I'm your host.
I'm originally from theNetherlands, happily residing in
the beautiful Grand Canyon stateof Arizona in the United States.
I'm also known as theDutchman in the desert.
Our guest today is ZoeFragou from Athens in Greece.
(00:47):
Zoe is an organizational psychologist byprofession, an agile leadership developer
by expertise, a data driven organizationalchange and culture transformer by passion.
A model by Hobby, an author bythe Force of Nature and a keynote
speaker and podcast host becauseshe loves sharing and spreading
(01:10):
inspiration and building momentum.
Maybe no surprise her first name, Zoe.
In the Greek language means life.
So besides actually being fromGreece, Zoe describes herself.
Full of life.
Zoe is currently a PhD candidate atthe Panteion University in Athens.
(01:31):
She is a mentor for women ontop, an organization that brings
equality to the workplace.
She's also a senior member of theHellenic Institute of Coaching, and
Zoe was voted best career coach in theglobal coaching conference of 2021.
You can learn more aboutZoe Fragou on our website.
(01:54):
10lessonslearned.com.
Hello Zoe Yassa.
Thank you for joining us.
Yasu Siebe.
Thank you very much for having me over.
What introduction now everythingyou're gonna do, no matter how hard
to try, I will fall short for sure.
, thank you for that.
I doubt it.
I doubt it.
I have the feeling there's a lotof energy that you bring, to the
(02:16):
table, and I'm kind of curious, whatinspired you to become a coach, a
career coach, a performance coach?
What, what brought that to you?
. Well actually I do have, a clinical license as well.
as well, I was actually working inthe psychiatric hospital of Athens.
I was doing, alcoholic rehabilitation, butit was very soon that I realized that I'm
(02:36):
very business oriented and I think that,you know, in the emotional intelligence
suite, there is a particular variablethat we call organizational awareness.
And it has to do with how fastand easy it's for a person to
understand the inner dynamics.
In the environment that they'venever found themselves again.
So I think that I score a bithigh there cause it's kind of easy
(02:58):
for me to join an organizationand approach it like a puzzle.
Understand which piece fits andwhy this piece doesn't fit, and
how to mix and match them sothat they can give out the best.
So I can say that it's a, it's an outcomethat came really, really naturally to me.
Now, do you coach typically groups ofpeople or are you coaching one particular
(03:20):
individual in an organization or both?
Hmm, well, I would say that 50% ofmy clients are corporate and I, my
specialty there is culture change.
So they usually might come to meafter a merger or buyout or succession
differences, or are they just.
Might want to change their culture into amore professional way or a more diversity,
(03:43):
diversity and equality oriented one.
So that's when I go and I doteam building activities, group
coaching, trainings as well.
And everything that fallsunder this umbrella.
But at the same time, I also haveprivate clients that come to me
globally from all over the world.
And their issues are usually leadershipdevelopment or soft skills development.
(04:04):
Sometimes it can be burnout,recovery, or they might be
being mobbed in the workspace.
So they need some help in order toknow how to put more boundaries.
So basically a littlebit of both, I would say.
Yeah.
And you seem to enjoy it, right?
You, you like it?
Well, yes.
I really, really like it.
I, it's not just somethingthat I do as a work.
I really believe that our work is abig and important part of our identity.
(04:29):
Therefore, it's our responsibility tofind a way to make it healthier and
more enjoyable, so we can't have suchan important piece of our identity
being associated with negative emotion.
Makes sense.
Well, let's take a look at the 10 lessons.
There's a lot of wisdom in there.
lesson number one,everything is a negotiation.
(04:51):
What are your thoughts about that?
Well, my thoughts are that, for manypeople this isn't very clear and
they think that if they are politeenough or kind enough or patient
enough, they're gonna get something.
And it's true.
There is this, you know, public wisdomthat says nice things come to those who
wait, but only the things that are leftbehind by the ones that were running.
(05:16):
And no one tells you the second part.
So this is something that everyoneneeds to understand when resources are
limited and in general, resources arelimited in the word we live because many
people end up wanting the same things.
Therefore, if you don't fight for whatyou want, how are you supposed to get it?
And why should you expectthat you're gonna get it?
(05:37):
The others are gonna fight.
So when you don't realize that everythingis a negotiation, that means that you
are the only one, not negotiating.
how do you determine whatis worth fighting for?
Because when you go through life, thereare challenges, and sometimes perhaps
it's to say, look, don't worry about this.
Don't worry about that.
How do you determine thatsomething is worth fighting for?
(05:59):
That's a very good question actually,because I also think that many people.
Struggle with that.
They both struggle because they don'tknow what they, they should be fighting
for, but at the same time, it seems likethey struggle even more because they
don't know what they should be letting go.
Yeah.
And move forward.
So I would say that deep down, weall know what's worth fighting for
and the instincts are always there.
(06:20):
It's just that we are trained froma very, very young and early age
not to listen to these instincts.
Think of a child that you give, yougive it a broccoli and it spits it out,
and then we tell it, no, it's good foryou, and we shove it up their neck.
There is a reason why the childdoesn't want the broccoli.
Maybe it's intolerant or maybe itcauses as a travel in their stomach.
(06:41):
So these instincts, not only shouldwe as adults go back to listening
more to our guts, but at the sametime, we shouldn't train our children
to not listen to their guts anymore
Makes sense.
I like it.
let's, let's move on.
Lesson number two.
Everyone is a mess.
Some people hide it better.
Hmm.
(07:02):
Some thoughts come to my mind, butplease, what are your thoughts on that?
. Well, the thing is that if you, if you are a person who is into self-loathing
an entire life can pass like thatand always thinking that you're doing
something wrong and everyone elsegathered together and, but at the end,
pretty much no one's gathered together.
(07:22):
We all have to suffer.
And we all have to sufferbecause life is so hard.
If you think about it.
Everything that brings us pleasure isconnected with great pain in this life.
Like think of giving birth.
At the same moment when you're doingsomething so important to you, you can't
even mentally, physically connect to thisthing because you're such an amazing pain.
(07:42):
And then the suffering that youmight feel from losing someone, for
example, it can never be compared toany sort of joy that you can feel.
Mm-hmm.
. But at the same time, we needto wake up every day and somehow
decide actively that one more daywe're gonna make it one more day.
We're gonna be mentally healthy,we're gonna go out there.
And we all go through that.
(08:04):
So to think that you're the onlyone that's going through that, and
you're the only who changes your mindor change everything, and sometimes
you want this one thing and then youdon't want that, then that's futile.
Most of the people are like that.
It's just that not everybodyis exposing themselves.
Not everybody feels comfortable sharing.
Everybody goes through their own journey.
(08:27):
I'm curious, because I, Ilike what you're saying here.
Everyone is a mess, but is it alsothat you're saying no one is perfect?
Is that, is that the same, butmaybe, you know, it sounds friendly.
Yeah, it does sound friendlier andbecause it sounds so much friendlier,
people don't get the point of it.
(08:48):
They know, they do know that no oneis perfect and it hasn't really helped
them, but they need to understandthat everyone is actually a mess.
Some messes are cleaner and somemesses are different, and for, for,
for me, for example, maybe yourmess is not a mess, but also for
you, maybe my mess is not a mess.
That's why it's so important to understandthat it's almost never personal.
(09:10):
It's only personal.
If it's about you, youthinking about yourself.
That's the only personal that we have.
Everything else, you know,people have so many, many things
in their minds that, yeah,
I think that's such an importantpoint that you're making
and that's why I asked you.
Yeah.
No one is perfect.
That sounds.
very friendly.
you know, we all understand, but whenyou talk about everyone is a mess, that
(09:33):
perhaps turns on the light a littlebit quicker that people say, Hmm.
Yeah, as a matter of fact, you know,and we can all think about ourselves.
I am a mess.
And I guess that even you there,there must have been many.
That's why we say never meet yourheroes, , because we always think
that this person is so amazing.
They've got everything together and thenwe meet them and we come close and we say,
(09:55):
okay, they don't have everything together.
They just seem likethey're having everything.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah, that's a good point.
And it kinda links perhaps to lessonnumber three, focus on your strength.
Yeah.
This is a very important lesson forme because I think that the entire
educational system is not promoting that.
(10:18):
The entire educational system, whatthey're doing is they're trying
to convince you that it's veryimportant to improve your weaknesses.
And that's also important, but totry to make a career and a successful
career out of your weaknesses.
For me, that's paranoia.
Because you can spend your entire, forexample, let's say that I'm very good
at listening to people very good, butit's very stressful for me to speak.
(10:42):
Why become a speaker when I canbecome a very successful therapist?
Right.
And then you think about studentsat school, what's happening there?
Someone is good, let's say at mathand weak at English language, and then
parents, they find them a professionaltutor to help them with language.
Then what happens is that this childactually loses their confidence.
(11:04):
So basically all the new research whenit comes to self-work and self-confidence
says that you should actually putthe child into more math classes.
Because all these extra confidence thatthey're gonna win from that are gonna
give them the emotional support theyneed to get better in English as well.
You are well educated, PhD candidate.
(11:24):
obviously your focus ison, on these, issues.
but how and when did you learn aboutyour own strength and weaknesses and,
and was there a moment that you realized.
I am not perfect or to use yourprevious lesson, I'm a mess.
And, how, how did that comeabout in your own experience?
(11:45):
Personally me, I have a crisislike that once every four years.
Ok.
Are you kidding Every four years at least.
I have one big, huge existential crisiswhere I'm like, okay, this is not working.
I'm changing everything.
I'm trying something new andthat's okay because it means I'm
growing and it's totally normal.
But the things that work four yearsago are not working this year.
Last year in particular, I had this,professional journey in, bologna in Italy
(12:10):
where I met this, artist from Portugal.
And I asked him a little bit about hisart and he explained to me, he did a, a
very interesting project about, racism.
And he explained to me that, youknow what Zoe, he said for the last.
Three years I've been divedso much into this project.
I couldn't think of anything else.
I gave it my soul and this is myfirst international exhibition
(12:31):
and Okay, so he was 16 years old.
Wow.
Wow.
Yes.
When I came back to Greece, I waslike, oh my God, what am I doing?
Like, what am I?
And that's how I was doing well.
But I realized then somethingvery important for me.
I realized that this child, thisother, this teenager, That's something
(12:53):
that I didn't have until that point.
It was very difficultfor me to expose myself.
I was always thinking, you know, maybeI should keep it more, be more humble
and keep it down and I don't haveto speak so much about what I know.
And then I saw this child putting it allout there and I was like, you know what?
Yeah.
That's the only way we can share a messageby putting everything we got out there.
(13:14):
And that's what.
Inspired me to become a podcastguest and to try to, you know,
share my knowledge with more people.
I see it, you know, as you know, I'm arecruiter and when, people are looking for
a job and they go through the interviewprocess and the client company likes
them and they go to the next interview,and then ultimately the company hires
(13:37):
someone else that can be a big setback foran individual and many times they start
doubting their qualifications and theysay, well, I'm probably not good enough
and I'm probably because you know, theylike me until they hired someone else.
Do you deal with that in your coachingas well as a career coach that you
have people that are basically,underestimating who they are and
(14:03):
do not focus on their strength?
Very, very often.
Yeah.
And the, the thing that they're doingwrong is that they're focusing so
much on understanding other people'smotivations instead of focusing on
what's happening inside of them.
And the problem with that is thatit's the most big, the biggest trap.
You will never know otherpeople's motivation.
(14:24):
You ask other people abouttheir motivation, and
sometimes they have no idea.
They tell you, ha, I'm, I'm crazy.
I do crazy things.
Yeah.
No, good point.
Thank you.
Lesson number four, don'tswipe it under the carpet.
I like that one.
Yes.
I also like that, I meet all thesepeople in business and they always
come to me and they tell me I'mamazing at, conflict management.
(14:46):
Amazing.
At conflict management.
Well, that's not a medal to wearbecause conflict management is not
the same as conflict resolution.
Absolutely.
The conflict management isactually knowing how to swipe
it under the carpet to the.
The time comes, you need to walk abovethis carpet and you fall down because
it's such a big mountain of thingsthat you left and managed actually.
(15:07):
So no, don't try to be diplomatic whenit comes to your needs and when it comes
to staff that are, are creating an issuefor you, we need to be able to erase the
subjects and solve them the moment theyappear, because only when we do it, the
moment they appear, we have the dignityand self-control to deal with them
(15:28):
with appropriate amount of intensity.
While it will let them and then they grow,then they build up, then they escalate
and must probably we're gonna overreact.
Yeah, I, I'm, I'm thinking abouta question that, I was asked
during a seminar and there wereseveral participants on the panel.
I was one of them, so they askedme the question, but everybody
(15:49):
else was asked to answer it.
And I'm just gonna throw it out to you.
what do you do when you see somethingthat you believe is unethical?
So you work for an organization and youobserve something that you believe is eth.
. Maybe it's not unethical.
Maybe other people can explain whythat happened or, or, but how would
(16:11):
you respond to that simple question?
It can be challenging, but howwould you respond to something to
say, I think this is unethical.
Would you speak out, would you stay quiet?
Would you say, Hey, I, Idon't wanna lose my job.
If I complain about, for example, myboss, I'm gonna get myself in trouble.
Or are you principal tosay, I have to mention that
(16:35):
Well personally, I've beenhaving vigilante fantasies all
my life, , so I would be what?
What do you call?
Social justice warrior.
I've been speaking up sinceschool, like I, I was always the
one, but why did you say this?
The professor?
To my classmate, I don't thinkthat that's a correct comment.
I was always speaking up and that'swhy I'm doing what I'm doing today
because it's very important for meto be employees Biggest advocate.
(16:58):
So that I can transfer their pointof view to the management and then
we can solve together and we canfind a way that works for both sides.
But at the same time, I do realizethat there are many people that
are afraid and they're scared.
Having said that, sometimesdoing the right thing means
that you need to do it scared.
Thank you for saying that becauseit has gotten me in trouble
over time, by speaking out.
(17:20):
And I have to admit, ofcourse, I can be wrong.
but I felt it was necessary to speak upbecause in my mind it was, for example,
unethical or wrong, whatever it was.
But, I, I'm glad to hear that from you aswell, because it is important to speak out
if you can quote unquote, afford to do so.
I can also see people who.
(17:41):
Very dependent on their job just to paythe bills and to get food on the table.
I would not expect them to speakup and put their job at risk,
depending on the issue, of course.
But that's a little bit different.
Yeah.
yeah, good point.
Thank you.
lesson number five,pettiness stalls your career.
I'm curious, please explainand perhaps you have an example
(18:04):
pettiness.
Well, people don't understand that,but holding grudges Is such a negative
factor for someone's career because atthe end of the day, there is this theory
that's called the sunflower effect,and that has to do with how people
are basically trained to be attractedby positive people towards the light.
(18:24):
Like the sunflowers are alwaysturning towards the sun.
Therefore, if you are the kind of pettyperson in your mind, you think that
you're achieving something by holdingto what's important, but at the end,
you're losing network opportunities.
You're destroying relationships, and youcreate a, negative vibe at your working
space, and people don't like that.
(18:46):
So only you have to lose something at thatparticular moment you might be feeling.
holding to your grudge is more importantand the other person has to suffer,
but do they really have to suffer?
And does this really worth it so muchas to even stall your career or affect
your career in a negative manner?
Knowing when to give up is sucha trait, it's, it's basically,
(19:10):
for me, the definition of wisdom.
I had not heard of the sunflower concept,but I, I can definitely understand the way
you say the sunflower will direct itselftowards the sunshine no matter what.
That's a very interesting
point.
Yeah, and the sameapplies to human beings.
That's why you see some people that areso popular and so chill and so cool.
(19:32):
Generally cool what we say,and people always like them.
And then there are other people.
They have this darkness.
And what do you think darkness is?
Basically, it's the publicterm for resentment.
Yeah.
Yeah, good point.
Good point.
Zoe, we're talking today to, Zoe Fragou,a successful organizational psychologist
(19:52):
and a full of life dynamic performancecoach sharing her 10 lessons learned.
I want to thank ouraffiliate partner Audible.
Audible is an amazing wayto experience our program.
10 lessons.
But also books and other podcasts,and, it allows you to build a library
of knowledge all in one place.
(20:13):
You can start your free 30 day trialby going to audible trial.com/ten.
Lessons learned.
Again, that is audible trial.com.
One zero lessons learned all lowercaseto get your free 30 day trial.
Well, let's move along.
Lesson number six.
Be the person you neededwhen you were younger.
(20:36):
Oh, this one's.
Personal
This one is personal and I've writtenvery recently an article about that and
it's personal because what led me to wrotewrite this article is thinking about all
these things that would have saved me somuch time and would have helped me so much
(20:57):
through my career if somebody has told me.
And then all these people knew aboutall these things, and then no one told.
So basically I realized thatthis pathogenic cycle of futile
competition needs to end with us.
And when I say with us, it's mygeneration, we need to do better.
(21:17):
We need to be able to mentor theyounger and the the newer people,
even if we are younger selves, andprovide them with every little piece
of information that if we had it ontime, it would've been helpful for
There a lesson, and I, I don't meanto put you on the spots, but you
can, I'm sure you can handle this.
Is there a lesson that you wouldteach yourself if you would be,
(21:41):
can I say 20 years old, right?
Doesn't matter the age, but lessonsthat you have learned that you wish
you would've picked up earlier in life.
Is there maybe an example?
I can give you a very, very niceexample to negotiate harder.
Have you ever heard of thepay gap between women and men?
Oh, yes.
Have you heard about it?
Of course.
Oh, yes.
Course.
(22:01):
Why do you think exactly happens?
It's not like the employerssee you and they interview
and say, okay, you're a woman.
I'm gonna give you 30% less.
It's just that women accept30% less because they, we are
trained socially to accept less.
And nobody helped me understand thatI had to figure it out on my own.
(22:21):
Do you know it's gonna be, I don't know ifwe have time, but it's a very fun story.
Some years ago I was listeningto, Jennifer Lawrence, and that
year she was the most successfulactress and she had gained
something like 50 million that year.
And then the most successfulactor was Robert Downey Jr.
Who had gained 80 million.
(22:42):
So she said in an interviewthat, you know what?
I also blame myself because I realizenow that I could have negotiated harder
and I could have gained 80 million.
So when I heard that, Isaid, you know what Zoe?
You know about pay gap.
And you know that this happensand you know about the stigma,
so there's no way I'm not beingaffected by everything that I hear.
So I took out a proposal that Iwas preparing for a client, and
(23:05):
in this proposal, let's say I hadgiven an X amount and I raised it
by 25%, just to see what happens.
So I'll go there to them, I presentthe proposal and they tell me, okay,
okay, but the money is a bit too much.
We will accept this number,which was already 20% more
from what I would have been.
Okay with
It, it is such an importantpoint, obviously, and for me as
(23:29):
a, you know, sometimes I say asa, a tall white guy, it's easy to
talk about these things, right?
But I, I can assure you that from thevery start of my career in the 1980s,
and I'll keep it short here, but Iworked with a colleague, female, and.
We guys, we thought, how did she get thatjob, because, you know, it was different.
(23:51):
it turned out very quickly withinthe first six months that she
did better business than I did.
She was a great person to work with,and it was a lesson that I learned
early, early on about the equality.
And I am still today.
Frustrated when I encounter the inequalitywhen it comes to the, the pay gap or
(24:14):
you know, it's a female qualified forthis position, can we really do this?
I feel very strongly about that, andI have seen in my recruiting career so
many impressive women and where evenclients said, well, it's hard to find a
female for maybe hard but not impossible.
And gradually it takes time.
(24:35):
And of course, you and I both knowthat there are certain countries where
women are still very much restricted.
We can say that's not right.
Most of the countries.
To be fair, most of thecountries, not some countries,
well, yeah, and, and you know, and thenthe definition of what is restricted,
you can say they don't have full access.
(24:56):
Yes.
That is restricted.
Or in some cases they're not allowedto work in certain positions.
And that is, you know, even more extreme.
But do you believe that there is changehappening and gradually, you know,
give a time that we're on that roadto equality or do you have any doubts?
(25:16):
Yeah, tough question.
Yeah.
We didn't come so far to only come thisfar, but at the same time it's not enough.
I will tell you something that youwon't believe, but up to this day,
there is an entire part of Greecewhere women are not allowed to enter.
Because the church has dedicated this partto Holy Mother, and according to that,
(25:36):
it would be an insult to her for otherwomen to enter an entire part of Greece.
And when I say a part, don't imaginea small village or a small even town.
It's an entire part of Greecewhere women are not allowed.
So no, it's not enough.
We should do more.
Yeah.
And I, I appreciate you saying that.
(25:58):
And of course, our podcast 10Lessons Learned goes global.
we have listeners truly allover the world, and that's
part of our, our mission.
And, I'm very grateful for yousharing these, experiences and, they
need to be heard all over the world.
So thank you.
Thank you for that.
I really appreciate it.
moving along, lesson number seven, allwe have is the connections that we make.
(26:21):
I have some thoughts aboutthat, but please explain
your, your side of the story.
Well, it's a very lonely word, andthe only way to fight this existential
loneliness is through connecting withother people, and we should never
neglect that sometime career, job,daily life, they come in the way.
But at the end, all we have isthe connections we make, not only
(26:43):
in the networking sense, which ofcourse is helpful, but also are we
anything without our support group?
Whatever support group means toanyone, but relationships need
to be taken care of, and weshould never, never forget that.
Don't take for granted yourfriends, spend time with them.
It's not just about quality,it's also about quantity.
(27:06):
If you don't have experiences about aperson, then there is no relationship.
It will fade away.
Yeah, it's a very good point.
Do you have a specificexample that comes to mind?
Have you noticed that themore the older people get?
For example, they tend to let stuff.
Family and kids and dailylife and occupation get in the
way of meeting their friends.
(27:27):
And then after a while theydon't have friends anymore.
They call their friends andit's, they don't even know
what's going on in their lives.
And then when you're younger, thereare traditions, there are things
that you're always doing together,and then things are getting in the
way and you don't do them together.
Well, what I'm trying to say isthat don't allow these things to
get in the way, because most of thetimes they're just excuses, You feel
(27:49):
tired, don't cancel the coffee withyour friend because you feel tired.
It's gonna be rewarding.
I swear it's gonna berewarding in the long run.
I can hear the coaching you.
Thank you.
That's a good point.
and, and it, it kind ofconnects perhaps to your
lesson number eight.
stop starting, start finishing.
I thought about that and I like it a lot.
but, but please, your thoughts on that?
(28:09):
Oh my gosh, that makes me a bit mad.
I, okay.
I will tell about mysister and I hope she does.
She's very, very young.
I hope she won't listen tothis podcast and get mad at me.
She's very young.
She's like 10 years younger than me,and every year she comes to me and
is like, this year I'm gonna startItalian and I'm gonna start French,
and I'm gonna start another year.
Didn't you start last year?
I don't know yoga?
(28:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I am moved over that.
Okay.
Maybe it's important to get deep intosomething in order to learn how to
love it and become, let it becomemore complex and understand its depth.
When you constantly switch throughactivities and switch through people
and switch through professions,you never go deep into anything.
(28:50):
Never.
Yeah.
So you never really learn anything, andit's very easy to do the first steps of
something when you pick up a language.
So I pick up French the first year.
It's very easy.
You can, everyone can learn how to sayBonjour , how are you doing, et cetera.
But then if you actually want to getinto that and be able to communicate
deep with a person, it takes time.
So at this point, maybeit's more about quality.
(29:14):
Maybe it's the opposite of what we saidbefore, and maybe it's more important
to start finishing things insteadof constantly starting new things.
How
do you see the future of your career?
I mean, you are highly successful.
is there a moment perhaps, that youare thinking of and say, well, if
I reach this point in my career, orperhaps even an age bracket that you
(29:38):
say, if I turn, you know, this age,I'm going to change things, I'm gonna
take it easy, or do you see yourself.
You're gonna keep going.
You're going to continue,continue, continue.
Well, I don't approach it as a careeras much as I approach it, as as a
lifestyle, because I'm a scientist.
So it's not like if I didn'tread psychology, I would
(29:59):
read, I don't know, astrology.
I really, really, really, I'mcommitted to what I'm doing.
It's my interest.
It has always been my interest.
I've been reading about psychologysince I was a kid, basically.
Yeah, it's a, it's moreof a lifestyle for me.
It's what I'm doing and handling my life.
It's internal, it's, it's the way youare wired that it, it comes from within.
(30:20):
yeah, maybe if I was doing a differentkind of job that was not connected
to my inner passions, I wouldhave this need that you described.
But at the moment, I, I feel it morelike my interests are switching more.
Like, for example, this period in my life.
I'm more connected with my speaking,but I do also know that maybe later in
life I would like to write even more.
(30:42):
So yeah,
makes sense.
I like it.
lesson number nine.
We're almost at lesson number10, but lesson number nine,
consistency is about showing up.
Oh, yes.
This, I will connectwith a previous example.
of learning a new language.
So it's not about always giving you 100%.
This is also a very nice excusethat people are using in order to
(31:05):
not show up and not do the job.
I'm not feeling it today, or I won'tgive my best self, so since I'm
a little tired, I won't go to thegym or since I'm a little tired,
I will cancel my French class.
It's not about that.
It's about showing up.
Even if you give 10%, it'sabout showing up even if you.
20%.
Some very few times you might give100, but if you only show up when
(31:28):
you have 100 to give, there's noway you will reach any outcome.
So we need to break this patternof believing that consistency
is about always being a 100.
Because even if you just go to the gymand run for 10 minutes, it's better
than not going to the gym at all.
It's a fact.
I fully 100% agree with you.
(31:49):
It is so important Interesting.
Well, lesson number 10, alwaysbe the last one to speak.
Wow.
I like to hear your thoughts on that.
. Well, I think that especially for people that are very dynamic personalities
and they tend to occupy a lot of spacein the room or maybe in, they're in a
leadership position, this one is evenmore important to understand because when
(32:13):
you're the last one to speak, not only doyou gain yourself extra time, but you can
learn from the wisdom of other people.
So you won't repeat yourself,you won't say the obvious,
and you can fix a thought.
So it's very, very importantlesson in my opinion.
One that for me it took a lot of timeto learn because I'm very, you know,
(32:34):
passionate usually and very spontaneous.
So it's the kind of lesson that itrequired maturity for me to learn
The concept of active learning, isthat something that you apply in
your, in your work, in your coaching?
Yeah, of course, very much.
And, not only in, in and in a very passivesense as well, I'm trying to learn from
every single conversation that I have.
(32:55):
I'm learning from my clients.
I might be learning from my clientsmore than the learning from me.
Yeah, I hear you.
I hear you.
I mean that, that's a verygood way of looking at me.
Which makes sense because by theway, my clients are brilliant.
They're like super successful,amazing individual from all over
the world, from, so I would bestupid not to learn from them.
But you can help them, you can guide them,you can point out certain elements of.
(33:21):
Whatever, behavior,performance, et cetera.
I'm just, you know what, I'mjust their critique partner.
I'm just there to raise adifferent perspective, but they're
doing all the job themselves.
I won't take any credit fortheir own transformation.
You're, you're very humble whenyou say that because I know
you have a great reputation.
I'm, I'm also curious, I want toask you another question here.
(33:42):
Are there any lessons in life in yourlife that you have learned that perhaps
you would say you have unlearned,in other words, lessons that you
have unlearned in your life that youdecided to do it different differently?
Go a different direction.
Okay.
Yes.
That's interesting.
And it actually connects a lot with,the last thing we said, younger in life.
(34:07):
I really thought that being patientand waiting for things to happen and
waiting for other people to thinkabout my needs was key, and that if I
waited enough, then the other personis gonna understand what I need.
They're gonna give it to me.
Thankfully I unlearned that and now Ido know and I say to everyone that if
(34:27):
you don't speak up about your needs,you will never get what you want.
Never speaking up is key.
And when I say speaking up, I makeverbally with actual words say it.
Don't assume they will understand.
Don't show it with body language.
Don't show it with a silent treatmentor a passive aggressive way.
Very, very clearly.
(34:49):
Even when it comes to crazystuff that you might want.
Some years ago when I was a student,I was watching Hugh Jackman presenting
the Tonys, the Emmys something,and I really liked him and I said,
oh my God, I love what he's doing.
I think I would be so good at that.
On my own.
I thought of that.
Okay, so then I made a video,a video myself, and I sent it
(35:10):
to many event companies and.
I think that I would be a very good mc.
Try me out if you have, and Iended up working as a master
of ceremony for two years.
I've presented while a student, I'vepresented awards, I've presented events,
and it was the funniest period of my life.
I think this would never have, how were,would these people know that I can do that
(35:32):
if I didn't send the demo of myself on my
Fascinating.
You make me think of a managementguru in the United States.
he is, a little bit older these days.
Jack Welch, I don't knowif you've heard of him.
He was with, GeneralElectric, very successful.
He has written several books on managementand, at some point he talks about what he
(35:53):
explains as the four E's words that startwith the letter E and number one, Energy,
you, Zoe, you beam out a lot of energy.
The second E is the abilityto energize other people.
And again, in your work and, and in whatyou're sharing, you seem to be very much
(36:14):
someone that can energize other people.
Good for you.
The third E is everyone.
Every person has a certain edge, somethingthat makes them unique and clearly.
we could probably talk for another, let'ssay 10 lessons because, There are a lot
of things that you do and it's obvious.
And the fourth E that Jack Welchis using is the ability to execute.
(36:38):
That's slightly different, but tobe able to have measurable results
and that's something that we haven'ttouched on today, but I wouldn't be
surprised if you cover that E as well.
So very interesting.
And, I thank you so much for sharingyour wisdom with our audience.
And, with that I'll makesome closing comments.
first of all, Zoe, thank youso much for joining us today.
(37:02):
Thank you for sharing yourwisdoms with our global audience.
you have been listening.
To the international program.
10 Lessons Learned.
This episode is produced by RobertHossary, and as always, we are supported
by the Professional Development Forum.
Our guest today, Zoe Fragou, a successfulorganizational psychologist and a full
(37:22):
of life dynamic performance coach.
Sharing her 10 lessons learned.
And to our audience.
Don't forget to leave usa review or a comment.
You can also email us atpodcast 10 lessons learned.com.
That is podcast number 1010 lessons learned.com.
(37:43):
I hope you will subscribe and, in thatway you don't miss any future episodes,
And remember, this is a podcast thatmakes the world wiser and wiser.
Lesson by lesson.
Thank you and stay safe.
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