1000 Lessons Learned

Episode Transcript
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(00:13):
Hello and welcome tothe podcast 10 Lessons.
It took me 50 years to learn where wedispense wisdom, not just information,
not mere facts, not mere platitudes to aninternational audience of rising leaders.
In other words, in this podcast,you'll hear valuable insights that you
cannot learn from a textbook becauseit took us years to learn this stuff.
My name is Jeffrey Wang, the founder ofthe Professional Development Forum host.

(00:35):
I'm joined today by your producer,Robert Hossary, my co-hosts,
Siebe Van Der Zee and Diana White.
We're also very excited to have YiWang in front of the camera for the
very first time today's podcast.
It's special because we marka very significant milestone.
This is our 100th episode.
Considering that about half of allpodcasts only have 10 episodes of

(00:59):
fewer, this is quite an achievement.
Clearly motivated by our love toshare wisdom with the world over
the past two and a bit years.
Together.
We have spoken to about ahundred wise guests, uncovered
almost a thousand lessons.
There are some strong themes that haveemerged through all of these, and the
same lessons were told in very differentways with very different stories.

(01:21):
There are lessons that we feelvery strongly about, some that
we have personally experiencedand agree with as well as others.
That hasn't worked for us.
Today we're gonna have a conversationabout these lessons and why we
felt so strongly about them.
So let me start with Siebe.
What are the lessons that you haveparticularly liked, in the whole time

(01:42):
that we've been doing 10 lessons?
Yeah, Jeffrey, that's atough question, right?
Because we've had so many great guestswith so many great lessons that I really
had to, go through it, very closely.
So, The first lesson Iwant to mention is from Dr.
Cindy Banton, lesson number eight.
All right.
number eight, challenges andobstacles are excellent opportunities

(02:06):
to gain strength and grow.
Ooh, I've had my fair shareof challenges and obstacles.
I have this sign on my officewall and it said, it says, God
only gives us what we can handle.
And the second line says,apparently God thinks I'm a bad

(02:26):
ass because I'm a cancer survivor.
Um, there were times when, uh, financiallystarted trying to start my business.
I almost went broke.
Um, I've survived, you know,uh, company acquisitions and
layoffs and things like that.
And when you're in those types ofsituations where the obstacles and

(02:49):
challenges are so strong, you really,I changed my perspective on things.
I, first of all, I go, well, yougot nowhere else to go but up.
And what did you learn from this?
That's the biggest thing, learningfrom those obstacles and challenges
and, and using that information.
I think all the obstaclesand I wouldn't trade it.
Anything people say youwould have cancer again?

(03:11):
Well, no, not necessarily, but it showedme a strength and depth within myself
that I didn't know I had, and comingout of it, nine months of chemo and
radiation, I felt like I can do anything.
This didn't kill me.
So it was empowering almost.
And it changed my mindset onchallenges and obstacles, not to

(03:33):
say that I still don't get in theweeds and go, Hey, what's happening?
Why me?
Why, why can't things just be smooth?
Why do they always have to be?
Yeah, I do still getin that and it's okay.
I embrace it.
And then I come out of it.
But I think challenges and obstaclesare there for us to learn from.
And I know it's cliche to say theymake us stronger, but they actually do.

(03:55):
It's like the ying and the yang, yougot to have the good with the bad.
So obstacles and challenges.
I welcome them.
I really do.
And she gave some great examplesand you know, very sad as well.
She suffered from cancer.
she had to deal with that.
but she learned lessons to overcomethat and to deal with that.
And I think it's fair to say that.

(04:15):
Obstacles indeed have the potentialto make a person better and stronger.
And, I also want to add in this ourgood friend Diana White, because
she talked in reference to thatparticular lesson about the relevance.
Of having a mentor, and that'sobviously highly appreciated.
the next lesson I want to mentionis coming from Matt Bai well known

(04:38):
journalists, lesson number six, peoplealways make you feel the way they feel.
So, yeah, I, this is another one Italked to my kids about a lot, so I, you
know, when I was, I'm trying to think.
I was at Newsweek, so I wasprobably in my early thirties.
I was traveling around all thetime and I was traveling from one
city to and I met this woman ona plane and she's a psychologist.

(05:02):
And, we got to talk in and as it turnedout, as weird things happened, we spent
some time together after, she was comingto, to Washington where I was living.
And, and she told me something aswe were having this discussion, she
said, well, the thing is howeverpeople make you feel is generally
how they're feeling themselves.
So if they make you feel small, it'sbecause the world makes them feel small.

(05:23):
If they make you feel dumb, it's becausethe world is making them feel dumb.
And it was such a simple formulation, andit's probably pretty standard for people
who study the human psyche, I guess.
. But it's always stuck with me and I foundit to be very useful in life to remember.
in fact, a tremendous example ofthat to me is President Trump, who
I've written about this, I've writtencolumns about this, you know, who.

(05:44):
who, you know, makes our politicsfeel very small and trivial.
and I think because he often feelssmall and trivial has a fear of that.
And so I, I, you know, for me, it'sbeen very useful to, in dealing
with people in difficult situationsor, just to help me remember.
, that person is coming from aplace of their own weakness.

(06:04):
and not to take it aspersonally as I otherwise would.
Again, very good lesson and I had tothink about it because yes, the way
people feel, they, their personality,their emotions come through.
But I also think that isan interesting concept.
When we wanna learn about people, theway people behave, it's not just how they
deal with us and communicate with us.

(06:27):
It is a way for us to understandwhere they're coming from.
So even when we talk, for example,about empathy, if someone is sad
or frustrated, you can pick upon that based on their behavior.
So coming from Matt Bai, I thoughtI was a very important lesson.
I add, from, Baishakhi Connor.
I thought also very interesting lesson.

(06:48):
Lesson number four, learn the oldway and then find your own way.
my gosh, you know, so much, learning,and that's what we're talking about.
very helpful.
maybe my favorite, if I can addressthat as well, in this particular
session, came from our NativeAmerican artist, Jacob Butler.
He talked about Know Your Worth.

(07:11):
So I'll use an example, I guess in my art.
So before I start anytype of like new medium.
And so for me, like, I like tomove around in different art forms
and work in different mediumsbecause it keeps things fresh.
And for me, the study of that art form isreally what gets me excited about things.
And so the work that I put into my art,it doesn't just start with me picking up
a paintbrush and putting it to canvas orpicking up a piece of silver and starting

(07:33):
to manipulate it with the chasing tool.
It's hours and hours of research beforeI even get into the actual craft.
And so I would go to market and because I.
Felt that I was not of the degree orstandard that some of these artists
that were known or had names behindthem and had a lot of experience I

(07:53):
would sell my work for a lot less.
I would sell my work for a lotless and I would downplay my
own worth in the conversationsthat I have with the customers.
And I even to the point where I'dpoint out mistakes of my work and
basically talk myself outta sales
Bad salesperson
.Yeah.
And so, what I kind of learnedthough is that, you know, a lot

(08:13):
of people wouldn't buy my work.
And I asked somebody that wasreally interested in my work.
They were a friend of mine and so I,I felt comfortable enough to ask them.
And I said, you know, youpassed on my piece here.
I said, , I feel that it's executeda little better than the piece
that you bought down the way.
And I understand that art's subjectiveand it touches people in different ways.
And so something that may not catch youreye with, in my, you know, in my booth

(08:38):
is gonna catch your eye somewhere else.
But I, I feel comfortableenough asking him.
And he said, well, when I went toyour booth you told me all the things
that was wrong with it, all thethings that you messed up on, and
then you sold it for next to nothing.
And he said, and I reallydidn't want to pay for it.
And he said, one, becauseyou downplayed what it was.
And he said, the other reason isyou don't have value in it yourself.

(08:58):
And to me, I'm like I do.
You know, but Justputting the number on it.
I was looking at it like, well, if I,even if I sell anything, I'm successful.
But what he was saying is that ifI don't find value in my own work
to put a price on it that reflectsthe work that went into it, then
why should I expect others to?
And so it kind of resonated withme and I sat on it for a while.
And so the next market we had, I,I put my prices like very high.

(09:22):
And I said, well, this iswhat I'm gonna sell it for.
You know, I do have a job.
I work full-time asthe garden coordinator.
And I said, you know, I do thison the side, but I'm gonna own
the work that went into it.
I'm gonna own the time and what itmeant to me to make these things.
And I'm gonna put a price on it.
And if it sells, then great.
And if not.
, I'm not feeding mychildren with this, right?

(09:43):
And so the sales that I makeoff of my artwork, I'm able
to do things with my kids.
I'm able to give them a a fuller life,take 'em on vacation show them things that
my parents showed me and provide for them.
And in a little bit better waythan just by getting by, you know?
And so, if I sell it, great and if not,I'll find another home for it later.
And so what was interesting is I used tohave collaborative booths with a friend

(10:06):
of mine, and it was all to save money.
So we would work on something togetherand we would put it out and we'd only have
to pay half of the price of the booth.
And he said, well, youdetermined the cost of this.
What do you wanna sell it for?
And I said, well, and itwas a pot, it was a vessel.
That takes a lot of skill and there's notvery many people that, that make them.
. And we made it together and I hadpainted in and there was over 40

(10:28):
hours worth of work in this vessel.
And it's something that was rare.
And so I said, well, Iwant $1,200 for this.
And he got kind of upset with me, andhe's more of the bread and butter selling
a bunch of things to to make his living.
And so he said, well, you're notgonna make more than 60 bucks on it.
Pay me half.
And then whatever you make on it, you can,but you're probably gonna go home with it.
And he was really upset.

(10:49):
And so I said, all right, cool.
And so I put it out and before themarket even started, a gentleman came
up me, he said, this is very rare.
What is this?
And I was explaining tohim, you know, the process.
And I kept in mind notto downplay my work.
And And I told him, you know,this is how it does how it's done.
This is , these are, how manypeople still practice this?
This is the history of it.

(11:10):
And he said, well, howmuch are you asking?
And so I only wanted 1200.
So I told him 1500.
And he said, well, I have 1100 rightnow cash, and I'll pay it . He said,
man, you can leave it at your boothand I'll come back for it later.
And my friend's eyes is like,I'm like, just got so big.
And his jaw dropped to the floor.
And and I mean, to me that kind of justlike, cemented or solidified everything

(11:33):
that guy had told me the time before.
And if you find value in yourself,others will see that as well.
And that doesn't just correlate to sales.
It's valuing your words.
And knowing what you're speaking istruth and when you're presenting or
sharing information to other peopleor educating them in, whether it be
the field or in life or in the arts.
If you don't believe inyourself, they're not going to.

(11:55):
he is a very successfulartist, native American.
And when he started out, and I knowhim quite well, it's very genuine.
he would tell potential buyers perhaps.
Where his artwork was not so wonderfuland special, and he downplayed it.
Humility, you know, beingfair and at the same time.

(12:18):
He realized very quickly that you haveto show your worth and as an artist, and
that's what I thought was interesting.
And by the way, this lesson isalso, mentioned by other guests.
for example, Dr.
Banton referred to that as well,but as an artist and that what I
thought was an interesting comparison.
It's not just the time thatyou spend on creating artwork.

(12:40):
he referred to the hours of researchthat he does before he creates something.
And of course, his creativity, that'snot something that you can simply learn.
You have that.
you built that over time.
And, he uses that as well.
So that is a, an important lesson.
and then finally, I want to addanother lesson, also from Jacob Butler.

(13:02):
address issues withsolutions, not complaints.
And his story is very powerful.
things that he had to endure, but mostimportantly, the lessons he learned from
that and how it changed him as a person togive back to his family and his community.
So that's where I wanna start with.
Thank you.

(13:22):
And, Robert, what are your top lessons?
Oh, come on man.
we've got a hundredepisodes under our belt.
We've got thousands ofor thousand lessons.
It's very hard to pick it, even thoughthis was our homework and I did do it.
I agree with all of Siebe's.
I think they're, very powerfuland he stole a couple of mines.
I'm gonna have to change mine nowon the go, but, I wanna point out

(13:46):
the Ori Eisen episode and his secondlesson really resonated with me.
You know, the hardest thing to do isto do, and you have to think about
that, and that, that was just brilliantwhen he said it, I just sat back.
Yeah, it is.
How many of us said,I want to lose weight?
I want to go to the gym.

(14:06):
I want to treat my kids better.
I want to have time for myself.
How many of us thought about thesethings and said these things?
It's so much difficult to do it.
So if you ever wanted to write abook, write a podcast, write a blog,
go volunteer the hardest thing isto one day, put it on your calendar
and do it like start after you startit's easy, but just keep thinking

(14:30):
about it will never get you anywhere.
So the hardest thing to do is to do.
Is that something that you have doneyour whole life or was that also
something that you learned over time?.
I've learned over time that when Ilooked at my notebook of all the things
I ever wanted to do and my calendarof what did I actually spend my time

(14:51):
doing that dissonance told me that ifit's not set for a date in an hour,
it will be in my wishlist all my life.
So I'm winking at you and at theaudience to say, you want to go
volunteer, put it on your calendar,just like the meeting with your boss
and the meeting with your customer.
Put it that Saturday at 11:00AM that says, go do that thing.

(15:11):
Like block the time.
Then you'll see that you'll start doingyour dreams and living your dreams
as opposed to just dreaming them.
So, I mean, Ori was very good.
All these lessons weregood, but that one is great.
are you saying that Nike was ontosomething with the Swish logo?
Just do it
? Well, yeah, but they did it.
You see, and that's his whole point.
You the hardest thing to do is to do,

(15:34):
should have been just did it then.
Just did it.
Yeah.
when I looked at, one of.
All time favorites, which, you know,regular listeners will hear me talk
about when I interview, some guests is,Andrew Tyndale's, this Too Shall Pass.
, because that's a truism.
Everything will pass.
So, love that.
I think it's so insightfuland powerful as a lesson.

(15:58):
it is just wonderful.
There's a couple ofothers that, that I liked.
one is from you, Jeff.
and it's again true, but you have tothink about it, is nobody's thinking
of you . Nobody's thinking of you.
They've got their own shit to deal with.
They're not thinking of you.
So don't take things personally,but let me just expand on one

(16:19):
particular lesson that was broughtup by two different guests.
The first one who brought it up was,Vikas Tiku and he mentioned, I think it
was his very first lesson, and it wasmentioned by a guest Diana interviewed
later on, Brett Gill Gillliland.
Gillliland, yes.
Brett
Gillliland.

(16:39):
. So Brett also mentioned the same thing, which is what brought
you here won't get you there.
Yes.
Yes.
You know, you know, I tried toplay, put some interesting play
on words in some of these lessonsjust to make them more interesting.
But really what I mean by that isand again, this is based on my own
personal experience but I suspecta lot of people in the audience
would probably identify with it.

(17:00):
everybody has multiple inflectionpoints in their life and their careers
some more than others depending onhow active a life that you've led.
In my personal case, I've always foundthat when I reached that inflection
point and I reflected on what were mygoals for the future, what did I want
to do for the next stage, I realizedthat almost invariably I realized that
the skillset that had got me to thatstage of my life, that stage of my

(17:23):
career, whatever it was, While it wasstill important for me to carry that
forward, it was no longer sufficientto allow me to get to my next level of
performance or next level of
achievement.
And I don't mean just in monetaryterms, in just any terms that
I had established for myself.
So the ability to reinvent yourself orin part, or in whole at multiple times

(17:44):
during your life is quite importantfor sustained success, both mental and
financial wellbeing over your career.
Too many people get stuck doing thesame thing over and over again, and
eventually it becomes very boring.
So the ability at appropriate times inyour life to reach that inflection point,
reassess and reset your goals, and thenreset learning goals as well so that

(18:06):
you acquire some new dimension to your.
A skillset is quite important forlong-term sustained growth in my mind.
So I'm about to give you two yearsof master's program in one statement.
Okay.
And here it is, all organizationsare perfectly designed to
get the results they get.
That's from a guy named Arthur Jones.
He said it that way.

(18:26):
many others have said other versions ofit, but it's basically you get what you
get because you put in what you put in.
The thing that we built iswhat gives us today's result.
And if we want to go to tomorrow'sresults, something better, something
bigger then we have to change.
We've got to keep learning.
We got to keep growing.
And so there are these stages in smallbusinesses on the ones and threes of

(18:50):
revenue turns out there's a pattern to it.
And so when you grow yourbusiness from 30,000 to a hundred
thousand in annual revenue, yougo from side hustle to now fully
self-employed, that's a stage change.
And there's new stuff thatyou have to figure out.
If you want to go from a hundredthousand to 300,000, that new

(19:10):
stuff is how to sell more.
And from 300,000 to amillion, there's a new thing.
And you have to figure out howto get consistent lead generation
and how to fulfill on yourproduct or service consistently.
That's a new thing.
And once you do it, you create the steadyoperation and you hit the million dollar
mark, and there's a new stage change.

(19:30):
And from the one to three and the three to10 and 10 to 30, it just keeps happening.
unfortunately it doesn't naturally happen.
Like you have to work to keep going.
But yeah, there's these natural,this is kind of phenomenon.
Every time you triple in size, youmax out what the current thing can do.
And you've got to learn something new.
If you want to keep growing

(19:51):
. And that's a constant themethroughout a lot of our guests,
which is never stop learning.
To put it bluntly, your skillsetwill only take you so far.
If you are self-aware enough tounderstand that and to develop the
skillset you need to take you further.
That's going to get you far in life.

(20:11):
So what brought you herewon't get you there, is such a
powerful thing to understand.
Yeah.
And I think it's bornout of self-awareness.
If you're not self-aware, you'renot gonna get this lesson.
So they're the ones that,that really resonated with me.
Yeah.
and to that point about, that lesson thatwas brought up by both Vikas and Brett,

(20:34):
what's interesting also is that we'reseeing constant themes, you know, of the
same lessons being told in different ways.
And one of my favorite waysof telling that particular
lesson was from David Redhill.
and the way he told that lessonwas, be a child over and over.
Yeah.
So indeed it's the same lessonthat we are learning Yes.
But in told, in different stories, throughdifferent stories, different experiences,

(20:57):
and yet what we are learning, seeingall these different people tell the
same, basically tell us the same lesson,but in completely different ways Yeah.
Is is very reassuring.
Next up we have, Diana, what are, Iknow you, you've been relatively new
to this project, but by all means,you have interviewed so many guests
in the, just such a short timeframe.

(21:18):
What are your favorite lessons?
Mine, Jeff.
Mine, . No, I'm just kidding.
No, that's why we love you, Diana
. No, I actually have, three, and one that I really wanna highlight.
So I'll go from, you know,Highlighting from just the lessons

(21:40):
to highlighting, Siebe your episode.
lesson number three, where you talkedabout be who you are, don't try to be a
different person to impress someone else.
I learned a lot from my oldboss in executive search.
, his first name was Chuck and, He was avery good man and very, very, , genuine.
And, , at the same time, hislanguage was very direct.

(22:03):
And, , he showed me when I startedworking there over 20 years ago, a
little cartoon and it's a little cynical.
So I want to be careful when Isay it like this in a podcast, but
it showed a, , veteran recruitertalking to a rookie recruiter.
And the idea was that theveterans said it's real simple.

(22:23):
You have clients and you have candidates.
They're both liars.
Now again, I don't golife like that, please.
I don't write by being so cynical, butthere is something to say as a recruiter
in particular, I want to make that clear.
It's not for every role that we needto have a certain level of suspicion

(22:44):
when it comes to our candidates.
And when it comes to our clients,not to say that they're liars, that
takes it too far, but it has to fittheir needs and their strategy, et
cetera, on both sides for recruiters.
, we are kind of in themiddle of the playing field.
We have to accept the factthat that is happening.
We cannot change that.

(23:06):
We just have to be aware.
And I remember again, , my previousboss who with a very quiet voice
would say, that's not going to happen.
, we keep an eye out on that wholeprocess and if something goes wrong,
As a recruiter, I take responsibility,not the candidate that perhaps at
the last moment, when somewhereelse we have to smoke that out.

(23:28):
And, , sometimes you just haveto expect that a person is
not telling the whole story.
What can I say?
It doesn't mean they'reblatant liars or bad people.
They may not get you the whole story.
And it happens quite a bit.
Okay.
So in the recruiting world, I get it.
And I understand why the theaterwould happen, in a job interview.
But how does this point work in real life?

(23:51):
Outside of the recruiting field.
That's a fair question.
, I think we all have to accept, ofcourse, that we are who we are.
That's not going to change.
We are the individuals that we areand can I apply a Dutch saying, and
I'll mention it in English, just actnormal because you're crazy enough.

(24:12):
And so if you think you're going tobe perfect and you think this come
on, And I think that is part of, ofcourse be who you are and try not to
impress someone, , et cetera, et cetera.
, I think that's in life.
It's not just in hiring for a job in life.
Accept who you are, you can improve,you can go all kinds of directions.

(24:32):
I'm not saying that you're stuckin that, but if you make yourself
look more grandiose than what youreally are, it'll it'll come through.
It'll show that's the point it'll show.
That resonated with me so much, becauseit's, you know, I spent the majority of
my formative professional years tryingto be what I thought my bosses wanted

(24:54):
me to be, customers wanted me to be.
And it wasn't until I figured outwho my crazy, authentic self was
that I actually started to get moreengagement and more positive feedback.
and I love one thing that you said, whichwas, accept who you are and just act
normal because your crazy is crazy enough.

(25:14):
And I loved that.
I love that.
And then the next one is, Peter Thornhill,his number one lesson, which was, you
can succeed despite your education.
I failed my last year at high school,so I finished high school in 1964.
I failed my last year or my grades in allthe subjects were below the class average.

(25:38):
I left school and, um, itwas a bit of a loose end.
Anyway, my father got me a job as asewing machine mechanic in a factory where
they embroidered sheets and pillowcases.
So I was an apprentice,sewing machine mechanic.
I lasted there for probably six orseven months and decided I could

(26:01):
cross that off my bucket list
when I answered a newspaper advertisement.
So I ended up getting as a job asa Clarke with an insurance company.
One of the leading insurance companieshere in Australia, and the progress
from there met married changed jobsbriefly to work for a general motors
dealership car dealership to make.

(26:23):
I doubled my income from $2,500a year to $4,200 a year saved up,
took off on the working holiday.
I got a job in London as a clerk Withthe insurance company I'd worked for
in Australia then went to an employmentagency, got a job with, the merchant bank,

(26:44):
Antony Gibbs & Sons in London as a clerk.
And that was the last time in 1972that I have ever applied for a job.
Every other job has come looking for me.
So about the education.
so you transcended your, limitededucation, I guess is what I'm hearing.

(27:05):
Yeah.
So I actually, when I started work, Iwent back to night school and I ended
up polishing off another three subjects.
so I got the qualification and thatwas basically it never set foot in the
university but took off and worked hard.
And as I say, a clerk worked hard gotheadhunted to go to another company,

(27:30):
got headhunted to go to anothercompany, got head hunted to change
jobs, got headhunted to move to Sydney.
Etc and it just went on and on and on.
And, that resonated with me as wellbecause as the team knows that, but
our viewers and listeners might notknow I didn't get my degree until later
on in life and for a very long time.

(27:50):
That was an emotional hindrancefor me because I thought I didn't
have what it took to bring to thetable because I didn't have that
quote unquote piece of paper.
So, Peter Thornhill, take or philosophyon what that piece of paper means or
what you can do with your life with orwithout it, that really resonated with me.
but the highlight, had to be for me.

(28:11):
Brad Casper, number six,leadership is not a title.
I think and this is reallytargeting some of the younger
people in the podcast communitywho might be starting their career.
But regardless of whether you'restarting or starting with a new company
or starting over leadership is sucha powerful tool and to have in your

(28:33):
toolbox, and I honestly believe it issomething that is very much learned.
Even if you are at the bottom of theorg chart, there are opportunities
to demonstrate a leadershipposition or a leadership mindset.
And I think it was P&G who really kindof put that model in my head that you

(28:53):
can lead from anywhere at any time.
You don't have to be atthe top of the org chart.
And I would just encourage our listenersto think about that somewhere today, no
matter which company they're in, theycan demonstrate a leadership mindset.
That maybe is unexpected or,but it won't be unwelcomed.
And I just wanted to make sure Ishared that lesson with everyone.

(29:18):
I would say that assuming that someonewants to accelerate their career and
again, depending it almost is independentof which industry or sector you're in
if you demonstrate leadership, there'sgonna be an excellent opportunity for
you to advance your career and grow.
Yes.
Conversely, if you don't demonstrateleadership it's very hard to get, not

(29:41):
only promoted, but to certainly you know,galvanize an entire team behind you.
So leadership to me is the most importantsingle attribute along with integrity.
and.
all three of these lessons kind of gotogether, but that one brought it full
circle because throughout my entireprofessional career in one shape or
another, I have been looked at to lead.

(30:05):
And not because I asked for it,it's just I guess my cologne.
I don't know what it is.
Right.
but I often passed up those opportunitiesand didn't speak up and lead because
I felt, again, who would listen to me.
Don't have that piece ofpaper, who would listen to me?
I'm a one trick pony.
I only know retail.

(30:26):
And so that was veryenlightening to me that.
What I thought to be true.
Why are, why is everybodylooking at me for the answer?
I'm just sitting heretrying to eat a bagel.
What's going on?
That it was because there, are certainqualities that you may have about you that
just are leadership qualities, and it hasnothing to do with education or title.
You're just seen as a leader,and so that resonated with me.

(30:49):
So those are my three.
Yeah.
And totally agree with those.
I, you know, like you, I wish Iknew Siebe earlier on in my career
because I can certainly havedone with a lot of his advice.
This is very true.
Siebe, you are very well respectedin the 10 lessons family.
Well, that, that is so kind.
But, kind of scary because I'm not thewisest person on this podcast, but.

(31:13):
I'll, I'll take it.
I think, and talking again to ourguests and the lessons we learn.
We're talking about people allover the world and they all have
experiences and lessons that they learn.
And yet through ourpodcast, we see, certain.
Wisdoms of course, but also similarity.
There, there is a message in there andthat is something now that we are at the

(31:35):
100th episode, that we can look at thatand say there is a certain consistency.
and yes, there's more to be done.
We're not done with our mission.
But, it is very nice to see that.
And look, we can alllearn from each other.
Let there be no doubt.
Indeed Siebe.
And that just reminds me ofanother lesson from Dillip Jest.
If you think you're wise,you're probably not,

(31:55):
. Exactly.
Exactly.
so we'll never stop learning.
So over to my favorite, team memberwho, we've never got to see on camera.
Yi I know.
Hang.
No, before you go to Yi,I take objection to that.
Your favorite team member.
what are the rest of us Ham sandwiches.
That's not, no,
but you're on camera

(32:16):
. Hey.
Hey.
I'm gonna step in and say that Yi isactually our favorite team member because
viewers and listeners, when you see.
Social media and you see usposting and you see, all of the
different tiles and topics and greatnuggets of wisdom on social media.
That is Mr.

(32:36):
Wang right there.
Absolutely.
thank you very much.
We wouldn't be where we are withoutthis man, so you are the favorite.
But we love you, Robert.
We love you.
I will second that.
Yi's.
efforts have helped us reach ourhundredth episode, and without Yi working
tirelessly in the background, gettingus known, getting us out there, We

(32:56):
would still probably be at a hundredthepisode, but nowhere near with as many
listeners and viewers as we have today.
Absolutely.
So thank you, you,
that's very humbling tohear all of that guys.
look, I think, you know,certainly it's great to be in
front of the camera for a change.
you know, the work we do.
Really resembles teamwork, right?
we are scattered around the world.
you know, I am very fortunate tobe working with you guys and to be

(33:19):
part of this really amazing project.
and I think that sort of, you know,really leads to my first, lesson
that I felt really strongly about.
That is, Ori Eisen's, lesson number one.
that is you can do anything if youdon't care who gets the credit.
You can do anything you want as longas you don't care who gets the credit.
If I want to give soccer balls tokids all over the world, I can't

(33:39):
go and do it myself physically.
I can't.
So I can either choose to, I wantthe credit for giving it to them,
or I'm going to allow other peopleto get the credit for doing it.
So the things get done, butit's not about me anymore.
I've learned this lesson fromColin Powell and when I heard
the words for the first time.
I, honestly didn't really understandwhat they mean, but every year, since

(34:02):
then I've taken this lesson to heart.
I can now do anything.
And you as a listener can doanything as long as you don't
put yourself in the center.
It's that simple.
If the motivation is to getcredit, you can do some things,
but they will be limited.
But the lesson is you can do anything.
If you don't care who gets the credit.
So it's all about the choice.

(34:23):
Do you want just to get credit forthe things you are able to do, and you
can keep doing that, but if you wantto do bigger grander things, you can,
as long as you don't insist that youget the credit for every single thing.
And I think that speaks volumeof what do we do as a team.
you know, I, I don't know how,but we just somehow get together
every week, boots strapping withwhat we have, and keep going.

(34:44):
And I think.
That itself is reallyneeds to be commended for.
And I think a lot of, those effortsdon't really get, you know, seen from
our listeners, from our followers.
and then it sort of leadsto my second lesson.
you know, and I've been reflectingthis a lot and I think it is a
common theme, coming out of lots ofthe lessons that we have is about

(35:04):
self-awareness, is about introspection.
and it's also about understanding, youknow, what is the value that we hold dear.
And I think one thing that is bondingus together as part of this team
is that we have this really strongcommon shared beliefs and values.
Right, and it is in our mission statement.
you know, we talk aboutthis pretty much every week.

(35:25):
I think knowing those values and knowingwhat they are is really important.
and I think there's no otherlesson better summarizing that than
David Redhill's Lesson number two,your values are your best guide.
Yeah, well, that wasa political situation.
I got myself into as a result of beingthe editor of the journalism review.
I was offered a job in a, potentialcadetship in a large news corporation.

(35:50):
One of Australia's biggestprivately owned businesses.
And I won't go into the details of whowas involved or the, or the owners,
but, at that time, the ABC that ournational broadcaster was cash strapped
and the suggestion being made by thisnews organization was that they provide
their own, journalists around theworld, their, their stringers as a sort

(36:11):
of a syndicated provider to the ABC.
And I felt very passionatelyas a journalist that, The ABC
should retain its independence.
And it shouldn't be once itstarted taking news reports from,
private company journalists.
There was a conflict of interest.
So, at the same time as applying forthis job and in conversations with this

(36:33):
news organization, I wrote a featurearticle in the journalism review,
condemning this, challenging this, thisnotion that this same news organizations
should be offering this, route.
And of course, if it costs me theopportunity to get a job with the
organization in question, so it was prettynaive in one respect to sort of, write
an, an article attacking the organization.

(36:56):
I was applying for a job at.
But Jeffrey, it reallydidn't sit right with me.
As a matter of fact, I didn'tget that job, but another
better door opened up for me.
And in fact, I took a job in a hardwarecompany, one of the first large computer
companies and organization in Australia.
I learned all about technologyin the birth of the digital age.
From the ground up, it didn'thold me back as a journalist.

(37:19):
It was the best, first opportunityfirst job I could have had.
And I never looked back.
I never regretted that.
So my, my learning again was, ifit doesn't feel good or sit right
with you, then don't compromise yourprinciples or, cut corners to get ahead.
You know how hard work andintegrity in that work will get
you where you're meant to go.

(37:41):
And you'll be able to sleep at nightand you'll be able to live with it.
So that was, that was a, youknow, a profound learning.
It was one of those sliding doorsmoments, Jeffrey I could have gone
that way and I elected not to,and I went in a very different
direction that I've never regretted.
and you know, that itself is, youknow, is really important to me.
and more specifically, if youthink about it, we heard Sheriff

(38:04):
Penzone talk about respect.
Yeah.
You know, Rob, you talkabout respect yourself.
Diana, you mentioned Peter Thornhill.
He talked about the cando attitude.
That is a great value to have.
Siebe but you talked about,you know, integrity a lot.
Right.
Ligia McLean, as I remember, she talkedabout, you know, being resilient.
The, these are the just someexamples of fantastic values that

(38:26):
we all feel, you know, resonatingand we upholding them, ourselves.
And at least to sort of thestandout lesson for me, is Dr.
Belle Liang and Mr.
Tim Klein's, lesson number four.
which is add value as a trailblazer,or builder or champion or guardian.
Yeah.

(38:46):
And ju just to dive deeper, cause Ithink you gave a great example, those
entrepreneurs that you're workingwith they're individualistic, right?
Cuz they want to go out anddo their own thing and they're
growth oriented at the same time.
Right.
They, they want to change it.
And that's what we call trailblazers wheretrailblazers are people who are, want to
go their own way, blaze their own path.
And they want to create new thingsoutside of existing systems and

(39:11):
they don't wanna be told what to do.
They don't wanna bebeholden to structures.
They don't wanna agree with.
Right.
And so.
Those, those are trailblazers.
And then, um, what we found is thatwhen you start a new entrepreneurial
idea, at some point, that idea needsto be codified and you need to start
creating systems and processes.
And what that happens is that you need togo find what we call builders and builders

(39:35):
are people who are growth oriented.
They think change is a good thing,but they're collectivists at the
same time where they, so they comein and they're like, you know what?
We need to start creating systems andprocesses because we care about every
single person in this organization.
And we want it to workbetter for everyone.
So we're gonna come inand build these systems.
And then what happens is that whenyou build these systems, you're like,

(39:58):
okay, we have product market fit.
The wheel is turning.
We need to pour gasoline on the fire hereand really go then what you actually need.
You need what we call championsand champions are individualistic
and they're stability oriented.
They actually like, they want to go outin individual achievement recognition
is what they want, but they wantstability what they want to know, how

(40:18):
the rules work so that they can optimizetheir own performance based on it.
And they don't wannachange the game at all.
Because if you change how systemswork that might interfere with
their own individual perform.
And then the final thing you needis what we call guardians who are
stability, oriented and collectivists.
And these are the people whowanna protect, uh, and preserve.

(40:39):
What's tried and true.
And these are the people who likethey wanna protect what makes that
organization special in the first place.
And so what's interesting, it'sknowing what your own individual value
archetypes are, but then it's likea really, really high functioning
organization has an equitable mix ofall four of those value archetypes.
Absolutely.

(41:00):
Right.
And so, but it's just being ableto explicitly say that and then
make sure, and then it's justwhere do all the pieces fit there.
So...
Good point, Belle, you haveanything to add to that?
Just the, the fit between, uh,well, I like to put it as the way
in which an individual can feel a.
Cultural value, add to anorganization is very important.

(41:22):
And so this chapter is about notonly identifying your own as a, as a
worker, as an employee, as a manager,as a leader, your value archetype,
but it's organizations identifyingtheir value archetype or a departments
identifying their value archetypes sothey can, um, have a clear sense of

(41:45):
what is going on in the dynamic when.
They might be in a guardian stage ofthe organization, or they may be, you
know, just guardian focused, you know,really preserving what is tried and true.
And they're feeling irritated bythe trailblazers who are amongst
them trying to push the envelope.
Um, so recognizing that, oh,like these people are not

(42:07):
trying to make me miserable.
They are living their archetype andbringing to our organization exactly what
we need to balance our guardian archetype.
So we think it's just so important forpeople to recognize what, individuals are
bringing into their organization ratherthan be threatened by the differences.
I really enjoyed that lesson becauseit's one of those frameworks that

(42:30):
these guys came up with based on theirresearch, but connected the values,
personas, and to actions, right?
So that they've got this nicelydrawn, value continuum, if you
like, where everybody can beplaced onto that continuum.
and really understand why someonewould be saying something or doing
something, you know, why they makedecisions the way that they did.

(42:53):
Why sometimes they do one thing, that isin contrary to what they say, for example.
Right?
And I think, from a people leaderperspective has certainly helped me a
lot, in being cognizant about puttingtogether a team that is balanced, you
know, harnessing the differences so thenwe can have a collective strength to
deal with the challenges that we have.
very well said Yi.
And I'd just like to acknowledgeyou also as our number one fan.

(43:15):
it's . It's pretty clear thatout of all of us, you are the
person that has the most intimateknowledge of all the lessons.
I do listen to all ofthem as much as I can.
Yeah.
and the passion in thecontent truly shows.
So thank you very much, Yi.
I, I, really appreciate, that,that insight into those lessons.

(43:35):
Now, when I was asked what were my toplessons, for in preparation with this
discussion, It was a very difficult choicebecause there's so many I agree with.
but then I thought I'dhave a bit of fun with it.
I went for lessons that I felt that Ineeded to do more like as in lessons
that I could take away and practice.
So a highlight for me, actuallystarted very early on in this journey.

(43:56):
Andre Alphonso, that's the numberthree Banish psychic vampires.
I used to work with the guy,about 15 years ago and he used
to, we used to run workshops.
I used to run a training company and heoften come back and go, ah, I said, how
was the, how was the workshop Garrett?
He goes, that was fantastic, except fora couple of psychic vampires in the room.
And, and you know, you know what I mean?

(44:16):
It says if those of you who've been in aclassroom would know exactly what that is.
It's those people that kindof suck the energy out.
They're negative.
They're, they're not they're mismatches.
They don't want to be there.
They're cynical.
So those are the psychic vampires andI've realized as a, you know, as I've
gone through life, that I've kindof let a lot of them into my life.

(44:40):
Uh, and I find that, you know, they usedto suck the energy out of me so many ways.
And again, this is probably one ofthe hardest things I've had to do,
which is about making sure I limitor banish, those relationships

(45:00):
that, and it could be from clients.
It could be from colleagues.
It could be for people that work foryou, it could be friends and it could
even be family members at some stage.
I'm not immediate family, butusually extended family members.
Right.
Where you just feel this, thisenergy, you know, they leave and
you go, I just want to shoot myself.

(45:23):
Like no, and life is too short.
I don't want that in my life.
I don't want people, you know, taking,making me as, so, you know, your
personal solar system at one handbrings out the very best in you.
Psychic vampires actually bringout the very worst in you.
And I think banish them getrid of them, move them out.

(45:45):
Um, you know, there's that my bossonce said to me as a guys to work
with a long time ago, worked for me.
And he was just one of those, youknow, he'd show up late for meetings.
Uh, if you were sitting there,he'd be looking at the newspaper
and, uh, in our sales meetings,he'd be, mismatching everything.
If you say blue, they would say gray.

(46:05):
you know, everything was cynical.
That's not gonna.
Kind of approach and it was just bringingeveryone down and eventually he had to go.
And I remember going to myboss at the time and saying,
look, here's the situation.
This is the guy he'sbringing the whole team down.
and you know, we just notbeing able to hit our straps.
And I remember what he said to me.
He said, he said, Andre, nobreath is better than bad breath.

(46:29):
Yeah.
And I think that's kind of thatphrase has stuck in my head for
some reason, for a long time.
And I think that's itbanished, psychic vampires.
Get them out of your life.
Oh, yeah.
so psychic vampiresare sort of a negative.
the people sucked their energy outta theroom and yeah, just negatively all around.
And unfortunately, I recognizedupon some reflection, they probably

(46:49):
kept a few, psychic vampires around.
So, Not practicing.
It was difficult, but it was definitelysomething that I appreciated, learning.
Now, another lesson I had alot of fun with was with, Mr.
Jim Carroll, lesson number nine.
beware of the noisyself of Absorb Few Yeah.
so the context of a lesson is that thereare people who, who tend to get an outsize

(47:11):
amount of attention, but they shouldn'tbe occupying as much as they, they should.
And I think it takes courage to.
Ignore or, shut down thosepeople who are very, very loud.
And that's certainly something I can'tsay I'm there, but it's something I'm
practicing in my life to make surethat I, you know, make space for those
people that we should make space for.

(47:31):
But the highlight for me, was,Andrew Tyndale lesson number three.
The wise man builds his houseon the rock and not sand.
As you become more intentional in yourimaginations, and in your planning
and in your playing a long game.
This is about investing in yourself.
It's about investing in your characterand the true foundations of your life,

(47:53):
not investing in your profile oryour CV or your number of followers or
the level of influence that you have.
It's not about that.
All those things are transitory.
The only thing that's permanent for you isthat character that you build in yourself.
So I encourage you to invest in character,not in personality, not in profile.

(48:19):
So when I say character, I mean buildingthe value set that you know is going
to be important to seeing you through.
And that can be everything fromintegrity to resilience, to honesty,
to innovation, all the values that youbelieve are important for you, treating

(48:39):
people well, those kinds of things.
That inner investment and the disciplinesthat you build around that are what is
going to set you up for future success.
In 10 years, nobody's even goingto remember what LinkedIn is, much
less, how many followers you had.
That is not what you invest in.
And it's not about the fashion thatyou wear, or the products that you use.

(49:04):
This is about who youare becoming as a person.
if you're building a house, forexample, build the foundation.
Don't build a nice paint work.
Don't invest in painting over cracks,strip it away, strip it right down
to the foundation and make sure thefoundation is built on rock, before
you start building up everything else.

(49:26):
I guarantee that you're going to gothrough good times and I guarantee
that you're going to go through hardtimes, and probably multiple times.
In that last exercise, the Campbellexercise, you're likely to have
a working life of 60 to 80 years.
Well, that's six or eightcareers of 10 years each.
So what you want to do is you want tobuild the foundations of your skills

(49:49):
and of your character, and when the badthings happen, which they will, what will
stand the test of time is your character,what won't stand the test of time is all
the superfluous stuff, all the temporarythings, the fluffy things that you thought
were important, like the fancy car youdrove or the clothes that you wore, or

(50:09):
your holidays you took, that's garbage.
That will be washed away in a storm.
If you build your house on the rock,it'll survive, whatever comes your way.
And that sounds pretty profound, but whatit's talking about is, pursuing character
rather than, something more flimsy likereputation or fame or other things.

(50:30):
and so that was a profound lesson forme, precisely because, I recognize in
my own life I was pursuing the wrongthings for probably a bit too long.
And not the difficult things thatwill ultimately define who I am.
And so that's something, again, anotherwork in progress, but it had a real
profound impact in understandingwhat, was ultimately more important.

(50:50):
So these are the lessonsthat I took the most out of.
And, you know, I'm hoping ifyou haven't listened to them,
please go and check them out.
So now, the fun part of
today, well, hang on a second,Jeff, just on that, on what you've
just said, the one thing that, youbrought up in your interview, which
demonstrates your belief in what you'vejust said was that you said, don't

(51:10):
chase happiness, chase fulfillment.
And I think there's a subtle difference,but building your house on the rock,
as opposed to the sand Is fulfillmentis helping you find that fulfillment.
I mean it's the same, um, metaphor thatgoes for business strategies as well.
But let's put that aside.

(51:30):
If we're talking existential now,definitely following fulfillment, and this
is what I learned also from you becauseI'd never actually thought of it that way.
And I, I see what you're sayingand I just want to, to point
that out, that you are living.
What you are saying, you're actually aman of action and not just a man of words.

(51:53):
Oh, thank you, Rob.
And, uh, . I, I could, I couldclearly say that I plagiarize
that from Andrew and, Dr.
Jordan Peterson.
I did mention that in the interview,but thank you for pointing it out, Rob.
We'll take a little break nowand, we'd like to thank our
affiliate partner Audible.
Audible is an amazing way to consume10 lessons learned and other content

(52:14):
like books and other podcasts,allowing you to build a library
of knowledge all in one place.
You can start your free yes, Isaid free 30 day trial, by going to
audibletrial.com/10lessonslearned.
With Audible, you can find your favoritelessons while at home or on the go.

(52:36):
Once again, that'saudibletrial.com/10lessonslearned for
your free 30 day trial, the link we'llput in the show notes back to you, Jeff.
Thank you.
But as I was alluding to before , thefun part of today, was there any
lessons the thousand or so lessons thatwe've had that didn't work for you.

(53:00):
You know, so lessons that you mightknow, or might hear a lot out there, but
through your personal experience, they'rejust not, it's just not quite, useful
or, or may, it may be the wrong context.
I'll throw it out there.
So, Siebe, is there any particularlessons that, you find that you
either disagree with or just didn't?
you know, it's interesting becausewe all realize how difficult it is

(53:21):
to select the lessons that we reallylike because there are multiple.
So to find a lesson that perhaps didnot work for me, I had, again, I had
to look closely and, also, you knowme well with respect for our guests.
It's not to say I don't like this.
I don't like this person at all.
No, I pick.

(53:42):
Guillaume Lucci, lesson numberfour, you lead by listening.
now Guillaume is a highlyrespected individual.
I don't know him personally, butI think highly of him, a c e o
of an infrastructure company.
Very successful.
but the reason that I specifically tookthat lesson, you lead by listening.
Because look, we all realizelistening is important.

(54:06):
Yes.
But what do you do with that informationand just listening doesn't solve much.
It will help create clarity in,let's say, in my head, when I listen
to someone, unless I take action,there is nothing that I do with it.
Yeah.
And I can make some internal changesmyself based on what I heard, but I

(54:28):
don't agree with the fact that you do.
Lead with listening.
And that's the elementI picked on that lesson.
And I think if I would havethe opportunity to talk to, Mr.
Lucci, I'm sure we would work that out.
but I think it's important that peoplerealize that listening by itself
is not necessarily the solution.

(54:50):
And again, in my definition,it doesn't create.
Leading the conversation orwhatever you are working on.
Just listening is not enough.
See, isn't that interesting?
Because I, I heard a different,meaning in that lesson when he spoke.
So that's the beauty of this show.
You get out of it.

(55:11):
What you get out of it, if it resonateswith you, if it doesn't resonate with you.
Another I, I understand yourpoint, Siebe, but it's interesting
that I didn't see it that way.
Yeah, I think all the lessons have,you know, have a backstory and I think,
you know, all our guests took a lotof times in coming up with those 10
lessons and the backstory behind them.

(55:32):
So I think the importance, of thisconversation is not so much about what
do we agree and disagree, it's about howwe interpret those lessons differently.
Right.
So, so might just dive in and Jeff,if you don't mind, cuz I, I've got
a lesson that didn't quite work withme or, you know, I sort of interpret
a different way, that is sort of onthe opposite side of what Siebe said.

(55:52):
this is lesson number one.
Don't worry about what otherpeople are thinking about you
from Ambassador Niels Marquardt.
you know, in this conversation,Rob, you interviewed him.
I, I actually agreed with the notion thatpeople are not thinking about you Right?
most of the time, it is absolutelyunhealthy to, to have this habit
of trying to guess, second guess,you know, over-interpret what

(56:16):
other people may think of you.
perhaps it is not really explicitin this lesson, but how that's
how I, you know, felt was that.
I do disagree with the notion that, youknow, self-compassion is equal to being
totally comfortable with ourselves, right?
The whole package, thegood, the bad, and the ugly.
think that itself.

(56:36):
particularly, it's not helpfulfor those who are, you know,
overly self-critical, for example.
you know, one thing I've noticed overthe last couple months as we emerged
out of the pandemic, as we, you know,getting back into more in-person
social setting, is that we've seen asort of a new breed of people really
focus on their individual needs.
You know, they probably got into thehabits over the last two years of

(56:58):
lockdowns and isolation to reallythink about themselves and at times
really placing themselves ahead ofothers, you know, the teams, they're
working, the people around them.
So, yeah, and, you know, and it's notjust the young, the gen Z, so to say.
I see that across the age group.
So I think, you know,we are social animals.
We live in the social setting, theenvironment that are we in, and how

(57:20):
people think shapes the social norm.
what is acceptable andwhat is not acceptable.
So I think one, one and everyoneshould be observant to all of that.
and, yeah, so, so, you know, you can'thave it all the way, you know, for
yourself and certainly it's not rightto disregard the considerations that we
should naturally extend to other people.
Yeah, so I actuallydon't disagree with that.

(57:42):
I think, you know, coming from acollectivist society, you tend to
realize that, you know, the, it'simportant to take the group into account.
However, that particular lesson, Ithink the context is a little bit
missing in that I think the focusthere about him, not just reading
into, something what's not there.
and it's about communicating and actuallyfinding out what they really mean.
So I think you're both right in thatregard, but I suppose the wording

(58:04):
of that lesson might, lead someoneto think that it's, you know, it's
not important to live within thecontext of the collectivist, values.
and to fit into a society and try and, youknow, do the right thing by the society.
So I think it's important todistinguish, you know, that probably
wasn't what he meant by that lesson.
Yeah.
but yeah, I take your point.
So, so let's go with Diana.

(58:25):
now I think, yeah, thiswill be interesting.
what was a lesson that youfind, that didn't work for you?
so.
While there are certain points of thislesson that I do agree with, and I'll
talk about those, I think the, just theactual wording of the lesson itself, for a
global audience, I, it didn't work for me.

(58:46):
And that is, respectfully MegumiMiki, I loved the episode.
I thought it was amazing, Jeff.
You did such a wonderful job.
but her lesson number.
I think it was three.
racism, sexism, and othermarginalizing forces are real.
But you can choose notto be a victim to them.
So in a certain sense, I agreewith certain things, that she

(59:09):
said within that construct.
Right?
Which is one of them was, andI love this, hope for the best,
prepare for the worst, right?
it's kind of how I lived mylife, but, you know, I grew up
in, in the Bronx in New York, and.
Viewers and listeners, if you've notnoticed, I am an, a woman of African

(59:30):
American descent and sometimes in, inmy culture, in my community, choosing
not to be a victim or choosing toignore or have you wanna lead it.
could get you killed.
and that's a very serious thing.
And I don't know that it's a global thing.
I know only from my experienceshere in America, but I, it that the

(59:53):
way the lesson was worded for me,was particularly, disconcerting.
because, because there are sometimesin life where these things cannot.
Be ignored and you don't have a choiceas to whether or not you're a victim.
You are the victim.
You are going to be marginalized.
Now in the context that she spokeabout, you know, in the workplace

(01:00:14):
and knowing that when you walk into aroom, If you are a female, they may not
expect that you are the one in chargeor the you, the, you would be the
one that would have the information.
Right.
I totally understand that.
And that has happened tome on several occasions.
but then I'll also go a little fartherand say that we also have these, Very bad
labels that we put on different races,that marginalize us in different ways.

(01:00:40):
And so, yeah, we as a team have hadconversations about how, you know, how
Africans Americans are perceived in the USand, you know, what is the first thought
that comes to your mind about their workethic, about what they bring to society.
And then there's a different perceptionfor the Asian community in America, right?
And so, Having that understandingof saying, Hey, yes, I'm

(01:01:01):
a woman of Asian descent.
And, they may not understand thatI am leading this project, or
I am the owner of this company.
but they're going to, at anyevent, they're gonna think,
well, maybe I'm good at math.
You know that, that old adage, right.
, there's nothing like that in theAfrican American community, right?
There's not, oh, well maybe she's good atsinging or maybe he's good at basketball.

(01:01:25):
Right.
and I'm being facetious for a reason.
Yeah.
because there are differentlabels for different people.
And I just, while in the contextof the lesson as she spoke about
it, you understood what she meant.
That sentence by itself, I thinkis a little bit misleading, and
that's why it didn't quite work for.
And I agree with that.

(01:01:45):
Look, one thing that came to lightis that once you have a international
audience, you realize that thecultural context is incredibly
important to everything we discussed.
and thanks for bringingthat to our attention.
Diana.
this is actually not the first time wediscussed, the context of this lesson.
What's interesting is that evenwith, that context, we, there's
something that I think we canstill take out of that lesson.

(01:02:07):
Oh, yeah.
for her is about not giving up.
It's about not just, you know, youdon't just stop trying just because
you're in a position of disadvantage,and I think that's universal to all.
and certainly, understanding,the limitations to your perceived
biases is incredibly important foryou to be able to overcome them.

(01:02:27):
and I think so, so that makes areally useful lesson in that regard.
So thanks for that contribution, Diana.
And, uh,
but isn't that what we're all about?
That right?
You take out of.
What we give you, what we bring toyou, what you take out of it, and you
apply it within your sphere, withinyour life, within your community,

(01:02:51):
if that's what you want to do.
And that's exactly what Diana did.
You know, this bit does not work this bit.
works.
Right.
And even when you were talking aboutthe resilience, Jeff, I chuckled
a little bit because I'm like, ifanybody can talk about resilience,
it's the African American community.
it's in our d n a, we haveto be resilient, but we are

(01:03:14):
in heightened survival modeevery single day of our lives.
For how many generations now?
Over 400 years.
And so, Yes.
Robert, you so impactful and I almost,I feel like some lessons that you know,
that maybe going forward we shouldhave lessons that don't necessarily

(01:03:36):
work for us, but a disclaimer, thisis why, and it's still a good lesson.
Yeah.
And these are the thingsyou can get from it.
But here's how I see it from my lens.
Well, isn't that our job as hosts?
Aren't we supposed to dothat in front of the guest?
I hope I try to do that.
I know that Siebe, you'vedone it sometimes yeah.
and it is our job,

(01:03:56):
but we do have our blind spots too.
Mind you, you know, and throughthis experience, I've, I.
So we'll come away wiser for it.
That's one of Siebe's lessons, by the way.
I was gonna say, that's one of my lessons,but I think this is such a relevant point,
Diana, that you're making, and you alsotouched on it because you notice the
global element and global discussion.

(01:04:18):
Racism is wrong under all circumstances.
Let there be no doubt.
At least that's my opinion.
it doesn't matter which country.
Doesn't matter what part of the world.
But indeed the experience that peoplehave and you know, it has been indeed
a lesson and experience for me as awhite guy moving to the United States.

(01:04:40):
If I look at the lack of respectfor certain races within the
United States, It is painful.
It is painful, and sure, in thiscountry, United States, we can point
at the progress that has been made.
And yes, we can point at certainareas of course, but it is still

(01:05:01):
an awareness that people have and.
I'm aware that the awareness isthere and it is pretty amazing.
in our podcast, of course, our guests,we are from different parts of the world.
We talk with guestsfrom all over the world.
We talk about topics that impactcertain countries, certain cultures more
directly than perhaps other countries.

(01:05:24):
I think, again, that is the beautyof our podcast, and that's why
yes, 100, but we're on our wayto 200 and who knows, 300, right?
Because there is so much moreto learn from our guests and to
share with our global audience.
So, I'm very glad that, Diana,that you brought this up because
it's relevant for all of us.
for all of us.
that leads to a lesson thatI, did not resonate with me.

(01:05:49):
It's along the same lines as this.
So it's a good segue actually.
And it was from Brad Casper.
Now Brad's great, right?
We loved his episode, but Brad saidsomething that just did not fit with me.
treat everyone as you wish to be treated.

(01:06:09):
It's not gonna happen.
There are people out therewho don't want to be treated
the way I want to be treated.
And I think we've just touched onthat culturally, value wise, a whole
range of reasons why you don't treator you shouldn't treat people the
way you want to be treated becausethey're not you, you are not them.

(01:06:30):
They're different from you.
a recent guest, Keith Rowe.
I had a great anecdote about this aswell, but this is the whole point.
If you start treating people theway you want to be treated, you
are projecting your values ontothem, and therefore saying, well, I
would like to be treated this way.

(01:06:51):
Why aren't you treating me this way?
And you are ignoring, or,dismissing their cultural relevance.
For that situation.
I can give you examples, but Ithink the point is very clear.
So as much as I like Brad and everything,you have to say, this particular
lesson just rubbed me up the wrong way.
yeah, and I don't think Bradwould disagree with you.

(01:07:13):
to be honest, I think it'sshowing respect, right?
if you expect to be respect, Ithink that's what I kind of got out.
And I agree with that.
I, that's it's the, it's the oldadage of do unto others, right?
, and that that is treating another personwith the same level of respect and
human kindness that you would expect.
But it, I agree with you, Robert.

(01:07:35):
It shouldn't go as far as treatingpeople the way I wanted to be treated.
Because, you know, hey, if I were ableto do that and everybody in society that
interacted with me, Reciprocated and kind,there would be no lengthy conversations.
It would just be, I'm a getto the point kind of person.
Don't waste my time.

(01:07:55):
And so you'd have a whole bunchof people in the world going
around saying, did you do it?
Okay, great.
See you tomorrow.
Bye.
Like that's
not, you know what, there wouldn'tbe, that might not be a bad thing.
Diana.
Sounds kinda good.
but I see exactly what you're saying,but I know it came from a place of that,
that do unto others, which is more ofa, treating people with human respect,
humanity as opposed to treating themthe way you want to be interacted with.

(01:08:20):
You made an excellent point because I.
That proverb is meant tobe that love and respect.
You know, say, please not, you know,button up your shirt, pull your
pants all the way out, don't have'em hanging down kind of garbage that
people are, are putting into that now.
, it's not a matter of, you know,treat, other people the way you

(01:08:42):
want to be treated in society.
It is exactly what you've both justsaid, or the three of you have just said.
Treat people with love and respectthe way you want to receive that love
and I think that transcends culture.
That transcends everything.
Agreed.
Yep.
And like if we were to have a go atrewriting that lesson, we probably

(01:09:05):
would've said, treat everyonethe way they want to be treated.
Yeah.
and it could be, you know, same lesson,but just in a much more universal way.
so what leads me.
my, the lesson that didn't quite work forme now, an honorable mention was, Joost
(Niki) Luijsterburg, lesson number nine.
Be a Shit screen.
Love it.
As much as I love that idea, Ijust get a feeling that, it might

(01:09:26):
not work out so well for me,
but go
ahead.
That, that was just tongue in cheek.
but the lesson that I feel like.
It doesn't work for me.
as much as I love the personthat was being interviewed, Dr.
CJ Cornell, lesson number four,he said, if you have to tell me
how great you are, you are not.
and as much as I love the idea for thatto be true, the lived experience and

(01:09:47):
this is the, with a cultural context ofan Asian person who's generally humble
living in the West, if you don't goout and tell everyone about what you've
done and what you've achieved, andyou're most likely going to get ignored.
You know, in the western world,self-promotion, it's just a part of life.
It's just part and parcel of life.
If we don't do that, you're gonnabe at a distinct disadvantage.

(01:10:09):
You know, I, I remembergoing into an interview.
And I said, we did this, and justrubbed the interview the wrong way.
You know, they want to know whatI did and I was just completely
uncomfortable claiming credit forsomething that the team has achieved,
even though I knew that without me inthat room, we would not have achieved it.
and that's really whatthey were asking for.
So, again, not disagreeingwith the nature of the lesson.

(01:10:31):
I want it to be true.
I just don't think it is theway the world is in reality.
and you know, and unfortunately that'sjust a cultural context that we live in.
And, you, Jeff, that's, youhit the nail on the head.
I think that's great.
But it's funny because I just did, am.
Well, second to recent episode, RonHiggs kind of said the same thing,

(01:10:52):
which is, you know, if you should not becalling yourself the expert, it's your
peers that, that give you that title.
And that's when you knowyou've made it right.
and I think that what CJ wastrying to get across in a way is.
If you spend too much time puffingyourself up and talking about what you

(01:11:13):
do, what you've done, what you've done.
How does anybody actuallyget to see you in action?
If you're so busy promoting yourself,how do we see you actually in action?
So give me action and letme see how great you are.
But you are, you're absolutely rightin these larger organizations where you

(01:11:34):
can get lost and you may or may not bea minority, and it may not be in your
culture to actually toot your own horn.
will you ever get noticed if you.
Say these things.
, you know, if you just put your headdown and do, because unfortunately, in,
at least in American society, I can'tspeak for Australia a lot of the times.

(01:11:56):
The squeakiest wheels get the mostattention and the people that put their
heads down and do the good work, they'retaken for granted because there are
no fires there, which is really, it'ssupposed to be the opposite really.
if you're trying to builda healthy organization.
But I get exactly what you're saying,and I've been in this same situation
that you just gave that example of mesaying the team and my boss looking

(01:12:17):
at me saying, , but what about you?
What did you do?
and I actually say, Iremember this so clearly.
I said I was here cheering themon, giving them the right direction
so that they can do the thingsthat I just told you they did.
And that's my claim to fameand that's what brings me joy.
And Siebe.
You, you as a, as an executive recruiter,what are your thoughts on that?

(01:12:41):
Well, I mean, there's a lot.
There's a lot to it.
I keep coming back and in, in arecruiting situation again, you know,
we're talking about business environment.
if you think about personal life,how you go through life and you think
of children or other family members,do we apply the same values as we

(01:13:03):
do in a business environment whenwe talk to our boss or we talk to
colleagues or we're managing people.
So there are so many elements to all ofthe lessons that we talk about, and I
think that leaves room for interpretation.
And so that's not a good answerto your specific question, but I

(01:13:23):
would always then say, well, itdepends, what are we talking about?
But in general, I would say, you know,obviously, Understanding, becoming
aware of people, behaviors, situations.
That is part of themission that we are all on.
And, I think that is somethingthat, will push us to continue in,

(01:13:45):
in our podcast and to find guests.
I definitely want to mentionas well that we have had.
So many guests that after therecording came back to us, right.
You know what I'm gonna say?
And they said, well, thank you formaking me think about my lessons.
And thank you for making me, orallowing me to share these lessons.

(01:14:08):
And I think that's another elementthat, we need to consider, as far
as how we actually can help ourguests in this particular program.
I agree, but also going back to it, youtalked about professional and personal.
if I'm in a bar at a bar and somebodywalks up to me and he says, I'm the

(01:14:29):
best boyfriend you'll ever have.
I'm creeped out.
, I'm creeped out.
Yes.
You know?
Yes.
So, so, so again, it's still, it's kind of
a, I think you speak forevery person on this planet.
If someone walked up to you in a barand said that you'd be creeped out.
But again, that's self-promotion.
You know, even if I'm in thesupermarket and the cashier's ringing

(01:14:51):
everything up and I'm saying, Wow.
She's really fast, but I don'tmention anything to her or him,
and all of a sudden they look upat me and say, you know, I'm the
best cashier this side of the west.
I'll be like, oh.
Weird flex, but Okay.
you know, like, well,
I think you nailed the, you hit the nailon the head before when you said it.
It depends, right?

(01:15:12):
It does.
It does.
You mentioned, there was a proverb.
it was saying that thesqueakies, we'll get the grease.
But in some context, in, in somecultures, the loudest duck gets shot.
So it depends.
I'll, I'll add one last thing to this,and that is a lot of the people who
blow their own horn are talking aboutthings that happened in the past.

(01:15:36):
Uhhuh
. Think about that.
, because if you are gonna spend, youknow, everyone's time telling them
how you were great five years agoor three years ago, this is an idea
you had when you were 20, who cares?
Quite frankly.
Who cares?
Yeah.
And on that note, we will finish as we.

(01:15:59):
Forward to our next a hundred episodes.
, you've been listening tothe podcast 10 lessons.
It took me 50 years to learnwhere we dispense wisdom for
career, business, and life.
Don't forget to leaveus a review or comment.
You can even email us at.
podcast@tenlessonslearned.com.
That's podcast at number one,zero lessons learned.com.

(01:16:22):
Go ahead and hit that subscribebutton so you don't miss an
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